NATO PDW Trials: The Forbidden Saga of "MP7 vs P90" [ Collab with Oxide ]
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European NATO members in the 90's had started a solicitation for a new PDW concept of weapons, that coined the term "Personal Defense Weapons". Despite the term being widespread, most people do not actually know what the NATO PDW trials hosted in 2000-2002 were looking for... and the trial reports have been difficult to find and reference.
We found the NATO Army Armaments Group trials reports from 2002 and started a deep research trail on exactly what NATO saw in the PDW program. Which weapon won? The FN P90 or HK MP7? Who benefitted the most from this project?
Download the trial report here and read for yourself: www.9holereviews.com/post/nat...
Check out Oxide's video on the armor test here: âą MP7 and P90 Armor pier...
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***Additional edits/ information ***
According to Vlad's research, the 7N21 (the slower traveling sabot penetrator 9mm) pre-dates the NATO development, but the 7N31 100% came after the NATO trials. Same with the PP2000, which was developed around the 2001-2003 timeframe.
Also there was an error: the 9mm / 556 base cased .224 BOZ was a later development that post-dates the trials and the original .224 BOZ was a 10mm parent case. Firearms used were the Glock 20 and the MP5/10 to accommodate the 10mm parent case. Still can have some firearms retrofitted, but not nearly as easily than if they used a 9mm parent case, which would have struggled to perform with the 2500fps that the .224 BOZ was able to achieve.
The PDW trials did still kick-start the Russian PP2000 project and still had a direct influence to the importance of the further development of the Russian 9mm AP rounds.
Furthermore, if you are interested in this type of research "rabbit hole" you should look up the 6.5mm CBJ and the 22 TCM which are also taking these 9mm-based AP concepts to strange depths.
this was very interesting, more of these please :-))
6.5mm CBJ is *very* interesting...
I do want a 22tcm pistol.
Sweden started using the M39B for the SMG, a 9mm AP in 1955, after reviewing combat reports from the Korean War.
Denmark a NATO member got some ammo from Sweden and repackaged it as M/41 Steel Jacket. The Danish M/41 9mm can be very different and from different sources. Using a magnet and weighing the OAW, can give and idea of what you got.
There is an experimental gun developed arround the 6,5x25 cbj, called the CBJ MS
The lack of US involvement was good, otherwise the adopted PDW would have been a shortened M14.
XD
...I wish you were joking. :(
Fucking spilled my drink
Yeah, I totally agree. And I must contest 9-hole stating the 7.62x51 stanag as effective...
It would have penned the Russian armor at least.....
Doubtful. Speed is one of the most important parts about penetrating armor and .308/ 7.62MM NATO loses a lot of velocity out of a short barrel.
NATO: *fails at creating cartridge to penetrate Russian armour*
Russia: "Fine, I'll do it myself."
NATO had plenty of cartridges that could penetrate standard Russian armor, though armor piercing rounds were not the standard round. The exact same is true for the Russians as well though so kind of a moot point lol.
Russia: what armor.... don't look over as the mafia is taking the armor and stuffing hay into the holders * hides 50,000 rubles in hand behind back*
*AKS-74U has entered the chat*
@@weasle2904 r/woooosh
We all know that the 5.7 and the P90 were developed specifically with penetration of Goaâuld armor in mind rather than anything Soviet or Russian and we know for a fact that it was a resounding success
Exactly. Which also explains why the US had âno involvement,â so the Air Force could keep it a secret. (Although good luck hiding the fact that they bought most of the ammo in existence)
incredibly effective against Replicators too.
@@Epson5000 ... and Wraith!
Outstanding
Indeed.
"Ivan, NATO members are testing cartridges for a PDW. They want it to penetrate armour better than 9mm."
"That sounds good comrade. Let's try it out."
"Where do we start?"
"Is simple comrade, make 9mm armor-piercing."
"You are promoted tovarisch."
The Grach was literally built around the russian 9mm AP cartridge.
"Sergei! Fetch the Stalinium inserts. We test this new round."
This reminds of the time NASA wasted millions on ink that could write in zero gravity. The Russians used Pencils.
@@Rendo86 ehh, it was "wasted" on the pen, not the ink specifically. And pencils chip bits of graphite all the time which in zero gravity can fly into cracks all around the ship. It's one of those things people repeat that isn't that simple
@@Mixu. and the problem with graphite dust is that it's electrically conductive, so has a tendency to kill the electronics on board.
"When armor is too thick, then leg meta is the way" - Sun Tzu Art of War
NICE WORK, that SOF magazine clipping is great but don't forget to put a link to that archive here!
NATO: we need a new caliber
Russians: ĐœĐ”Ń, ĐșĐ°Đ»ĐžĐ±Ń is fine, we need 50 different versions of it.
14:05 Boy, the video of the British officer presenting the FAL really cements how long it's been. Rare pictures, documents, and footage like that is why I really appreciate the research and effort you guys put into your videos
I love that it had an EM2 optic on it.
@Brupcat the final iteration of the .280 However, was not that much different recoil wise than 7.62x51. It would've been equally uncontrollable in full auto.
@@mikec8086 oh I did not know that that is very useful.
@@mikec8086 I agree. I believe the 280 probably would have been a worse choice over the 308 back then anyway, think about the machine gun barrel life. That would be a logistical nightmare.
Fun fact: One of the designers of .224 Boz was Bill Alexander, who went on to invent the 6.5 Grendel and .50 Beowulf.
Grendel deserves more respect. That and 6mm arc imo are the perfect intermediate rounds and defeat 5.56 and 7.62x39 in every meaningful metric besides supply and STANAG
NATO: Builds a more complicated mousetrap that accidentally lets the mouse escape
Russia: Adds spikes
Russia: gets a cat
@@mwnciboo But it turns out the cat is dead because the defense minister embezzled the funds to keep it fed.
The 357 SIG is dead, but being a Czechophile I'm still mesmerized by the 7.5FK. We don't know what the flight ballistics of the 7N21/7N31 are, but I wonder what potential the 7.5FK can have for PDW roles.
I came here to say this. I have a PSD and it's pretty precisely what they were after in the original PDW trials. I would trade my right leg and half a ball for a PDW chambered in 7.5FK.
@@ericgrumbles447 I would be really surprised if CZ was reluctant enough to not go into the idea. They make great rifles already!!!
@@ABCantonese An upper for the Scorpion chambered in 7.5fk would be so epic.
Federal Air Marshals and Secret Service haven't gotten the memo yet, they still use .357 SIG. I guess when it's taxpayer money it's not an issue paying for more expensive boutique ammo like .357 SIG...
7.5 FK might be the baddest pistol round at the moment but I expect SIG will surpass them soon with their hybrid case tech. Whatever the 7.5 FK can do...just imagine it with 20-25 % higher chamber pressure. A sig pistol round using Sig's hybrid tech hasn't been announced yet, but they have to be working on it.
Love that you collabed with Oxide, need this till he uploads somewhat after christmas
yea i am sure that it will be worth the wait
It's Army boot camp. Shit's easy considering all the soy boys getting through these days.
As a PS90 owner and someone lucky enough to have shot an MP7 full auto, this is AWESOME. Please do a PS90 setup video like you did for the MP5K modernization bit
Form 1 SBR on a trust (not sure what current best option is for barrel), HDD combo muzzle device, Design Machine optics mount, Man Kave hammer, Elite T6B ammo.
As an idiot (my father constantly reminded me growing up) would it be possible to slap a long arse barrel for extra velocity on that bad boy, idk the PS90 barrel length as I assume its not bullpup đ€·ââïž genuinely curious though, love those guns never touched one, literally if I ever travelled to USA it would be to shoot every gun, probably shouldn't write that on the customs declaration though đââïž
@@markredacted8547 go to battlefield Vegas in Las Vegas. That place makes dreams come true!!
@@markredacted8547 a longer barrel wonât help much if any
@@markredacted8547 The P90 is explicitly a bullpup, with a 10in barrel already. Making it longer wouldn't help
Very interesting ! Thanks a lot for this video.
Cool to see you here
I'm glad that you're back
Nice you brought up the BOZ. It was that round, as a 10mm fan that got me interested in the the PDW rounds. It's lack of a dedicated platform, it's ability to destroy any platform that was modified to fire it, lead me to the 5.7x28mm. Also the BOZ was based on 10mm necked down, not 9mm. The 2 test platforms used for it where the G20, it cracked and comprised the rear of the frame, and a Colt Delta Elite with a aggressively lightened slide. This had cycling issues and wold destroy the breach face to the point they had to modify the slide to accept replace breech faces. As a side note years ago I figured out how to make the BOZ function in the Delta Elite without damaging it or destroying the breach face.
I think the 10mm case is where we should be going. The 7.5fk is pretty close, very close to 300blk case capacity but shorter.Take a 9x25 Dillon neck it to 8mm and run 123gr privi fmj's..... Willing to bet it'd outperform a blackout from sub7" barrels.
So this may be ignorant, but where does something like .357 sig place when compared to the BOZ? If you squint hard enough, it starts looking similar in profile to a halfway point between Tokarev and the BOZ round.
@@geekmansegraves VERY close, in fact I have toyed with a .357 SIG load using a caliber appropriate T6B projectile. Not enough time or resources have halted this. The powders that work best for the 5.7x28mm also work very well with the .357 SIG and I have a .357 SIG barrel for my Delta Elite.
Oh really? No wonder then. 10mm is often weaker in general since they are 9mm guns modified to fire 10mm. No wonder 224Boz guns don't last.
@@jamesbridges7750 would love to see that.... Though 9x25 is not a thing. 8mm at 123gr? Kurz? Even 8mm Mauser seems to be going away. I want to see 8mm return since I have a Mauser, but reality though?
Fantastic presentation. Too bad things like this become one big military / governmental circle jerk instead of actually solving problems from the battlefield.
The reason the 5.7 needs lubrication is because it is straight walled which makes it harder to extract. Weapons can have flutes to help extraction (like the g3) or you lubricate the ammo. Never the less, it is only straight walled because the P90 has a straight magazine and you dont want it to be courved by a tempered cartridge. Its kinda weird that you addop a cartridge that could be used in a lot of different platforms that has a workaround for a problem most of those platforms wouldn't have in the first place.
Which is why other 5,7 x 28mm guns have stoppages etc when using non-FN ammo. I doubt they have figured out the FN lubricant formula accurately enough. Most FN owners seem to have very few problems when using FN ammo. Remember the PS90/Five seveN were ALWAYS going to be niche firearms/calibres anyway. Realistically, FN was never really going to replace the very well-entrenched 9mm parabellum anyway - the logistics implications clearly prevented that from the get go. "Rear echelon troops" is a limited "market" by definition! However, the P90 was quickly adopted by numerous Special Forces and Law Enforcement Agencies worldwide, contrary to all expectations. Some detractors seem to have missed this. Replacing an entrenched weapons system/calibre is extremely difficult and expensive, as demonstrated by the whole NGSW programme, which is still only partially adopted, with 5,56mm still firmly entrenched for the most part.
This is an interesting change in direction for the channel.
As a firearm enthusiast I am very happy with it.
Another Indian furearm enthusiast? Sheesssh
"Good job NATO!"
That pretty much sums up the management/performance of modern western militaries.
The Russians are good at keeping things simple and it works so well for them.
Yup, I really like their logic: "we need small ak": AKS-74u, "We need long AK": SVD, "We need quiet AK": VSS ... And so on. They save so much money and time not trying to "reinvent" things they will likely barely use in the first place.
@@unarmored9973 And sometimes this logic has its disadvantages, for example rimmed 7.62x54 which doesn`t allow to construct high - capacity magasines for SVD, or lacking supersonic suppressors among the troops. BTW, SVD is not an upscaled AK, it is completely different inside, and VSS has some major differenses from AK either
Has it though? Youâd think if âit works so well for themâ Russia would be in a better state than it isâŠâŠor ever has been
@@unarmored9973 PK is completely different, like m249 and m4. I can agree with ots-14, pp19 and saiga which are same aks with different calibers and designs. Maybe Val too. But if you say that svd is ak, than let's say m417 is a custom ar15, mk18 is a fancy ar15. Svd differs more from AK than g36 from m4. It just looks familiar because of same production methods used(large steel stamping, steel magazine, wooden parts), but all major internal parts are different
@@user-if4zv5nj5m I am NOT saying SVD is the same as AK. Nobody would say that! haha.
I do not mean "Platform". Such as: AK74, AK100, AK101, AK102, AK103, AK104, AK105, AKM, AKMS, AKS74u, RPK74, RPK... And so on. Those share enough parts interchangeability, I would never say that the SVD is part of the same "Platform" as AK.
Everyone classifies weapons different for "family" or even "series". There are many different books written about how every author thinks firearms should be categorized together into families and series. So many different reasons. - There is DEFINITELY no consensus, even by the manufacturers.
Some people think caliber is enough to create a new family, others think operating system is more important, others think combat role is what determines it's family, others think simply by how it looks - There is absolutely no way to grade similar firearms into defined families that we all can agree upon.
Awesome content as always guys.
I love the whole PDW-off and all the interesting things it spawned.
The P90 may not be the most effective weapon for every situation, but it's a symphony in abandoning convention and embracing innovation in terms of materials, format etc.
Yep and it did allow for low recoil, high fire rate PDW weapon for non frontline soldiers. Yeah it may not penetrate the armour, but it gives you a better fighting chance than a 9mm barreta lol..
@@teaser6089 I dont see what any other SMG could not do instead or better. It was a waste of resources and tax payers money.
@@kleinerprinz99 if you say so chief P90 and mp7 have seen widespread use outside of military contracts...
I love how you have watermarks in the b roll footage to give credit to the original creator. Thanks for being so transparent.
That Boz round seems kind of interesting. A neck down 9 mm case? You could retrofit a hell of a lot more weapons with a new barrel.
It was very potent. From my recollection itâs major downside was it destroyed the breach face of guns
22tcm Is the modern equivalent
The .22 TCM is still around, which is kind of the same thing.
It was the 10mm case rather than 9mm
@@BuffRANGE That honestly does not surprise me
The nato PDW trials just sounds like someone's fever dream after watching Red Dawn.
So much data! You guys do amazing work on this channel!
âWe need a bullet that can penetrate russian armor.â
What if they are wearing plates?
âYouâre fired!â
Wow, that Soviet paratrooper armor looks pretty darn effective.
How heavy is a west like that!? đ€
It probably suffers from similar problems as the Dragon scale armor. The segmented plates meant it was good at stopping straight on shots but not ones from oblique angels.
Awesome video guys... you put some effort into this one. Oxide has done some really good ones on his channel... especially all his russian armor trials... people don't realize how much effort goes into just locating some of these items
Fantastic video. Love these deep dives and historical perspectives.
I have watched this particular podcast multiple times. Every time I watch it. I learn something i had missed the previous times.
Great job guys.
This really interesting. I appreciate the amount of work you guys put in to this, itâs a really great source of knowledge.
Thank you for the mention. :)
You know, my time spent working with TACOM, both in and out of the military, and videos like this have led me to the conclusion that Russia's small arms program has always been much healthier than anything in the west, at least the US. They mass adopted the assault rifle concept before us, the polymer magazine before us, they successfully reached a conclusion to this project, they made a somewhat functioning multiple hit burst weapon (the AN94), while we just straight up stopped at duplex ammo, and all of their weapons are developed holistically with the average soldier and real world use in mind.
Even details as little as the small hole at the bottom of AK mags to let you know when you have a full magazine. Know what that's for? Yeah you can use it to check if you have a full mag, but it becomes extremely useful if you have to perform an administrative task like ammo accountability, you don't have to unload everyone's mags and risk losing rounds like my dumbass unit did. You only need unload the mags that aren't completely full.
I have very similar sentiments, and honestly I've been trying to research to publish videos like this so we stop doing this stuff... or at the very least try not to. I'm sure that's too much to ask, but I hope it helps a little bit, even a smidge if possible.
@@9HoleReviews I sincerely hope that it has some effect. We've been stuck in this mentality of not thinking things through for far too long.
When I got out of the Marines they had finished adopting the PMAGs, and it was apparent that nowhere in the testing did they consider how they fit in the current issue magazine pouches. According to my old boot who became the armory chief, the new magazines were apparently too thick to fit two of in the at-the-time currently issued double-mag pouches, so you ran into situations like SNCOs telling Marines to soak said pouches in hot water then stretch the hell out of them so they would fit. Apparently they set to work on a new magazine pouch system, to which I'm not aware of the details of, but I know for sure it wasn't until after the first magazines were sent to armories to be issued.
@@Motoboo_Marine well this aged like milk lmao
@@jb76489 it was at least true for the Soviets
@@9HoleReviews Why is Russiađ·đș an enemy for NATO? Just don't write back like - you attacked Ukraine.
A fascinating topic well presented, Henry! Great job.
Thank you for all you and the team does.
I am so glad the 5.7 hasn't died. It duplicates the ballistics of a 22 mag in a centerfire cartridge. 50 round capacity mags are incredible. Very pleasant recoil. I have had a PS90 for years and just added a Ruger 57 to it. Very pleasant to carry and shoot and more effective than a 9mm with better armor penetration. Not going to handle level III or IV. IIIA from the carbine perhaps, I wouldn't count on it from the Ruger 57. Did you hear that Speer has Gold Dot in 5.7mm. Some day we will be able to buy it.
I love 5.7 just because it's so much fun to shoot! We have the same two guns chambered in it. Hopefully it'll be less than .70c per round some day again...
@@jaysblades When I bought my PS90 (2011 or so). I needed to stock up on ammo and it was all $1 round.
Some guy on craigslist posted a "big box" of 5.7 for sale. He said $1000. I counted 3500 rounds. I said sold. Great ammo, NIB. I have been shooting up bit by bit ever since.
5.7 ballistics exceed that of 16" 22 mag rifles when fired from the 5" pistols :D and way better bullet design
@@BuffRANGE Most important is it goes bang every time. The ridiculously high capacity does become exhaustive sometimes. I quit shooting and there is still ammo in the gun.
@@haldorasgirson9463 Indeed!
Great stuff. I know it's hard to discuss anything about the 5.7 and 4.6 rounds without questioning a lot of firmly held beliefs.
It's awesome you guys worked with Oxide! Love that channel !! đ
Very good video. Thanks for putting this together.
Thank you for research and producing that video. Unexpected results in the end, I never thought of it to be honest.
Come to think of it, Russia already had 9x39 armor piercing developed. Scale it down, adjust the system and boom, you are done. It might not be the case, but I have visited a few testing bureaus and ranges and I got an impression that R&D most likely have a lot of prototype stuff to be able to adjust to any circumstances quite fast.
And I wouldn't call this saga forbidden, but you did an amazing job of debunking some of the myths and provide some good insights.
9-Hole Reviews, once again, produced a great content. Thank you.
Thatâs kind of what theyâve done. Look up 9x21 and the SR2 Veresk. 9x21 is an absolutely nasty little round, longer than x19, and loaded HOT. Out of the pistol itâs chambered in, itâs rated to do far better than a 5-7.
Basically, the object of the PDW trial seemed to be to do the same thing that had happened to rifle cartridges 30 years prior. Smaller bullets, at a higher velocity, leading to rifle-like performance out of a smaller package, and with better performance against armor as a side benefit.
I disagree. I think concerns over bulletproof vests were at the forefront of people's minds, especially with the concerns over policing. Having a 20-round handgun that can penetrate IIIA is exactly what SWAT and CT personnel need when dealing with high-profile incidents. Works in Counter-Strike, lol. The generally improved performance is perhaps actually more important, though. I mean, having more power and capacity than 9 mil, with less recoil, seems like a great deal, and armour is not statistically all that relevant. But they seemed to have been more focused on the vest thing, and I can't blame them. I really don't like the idea of my rounds getting stopped by a few layers of fabric.
@@jonathandoe1367 NATO is strictly a military alliance with no consideration for law enforcement needs or wants. In the 90s/early 2000s, vests (IIIA or otherwise) weren't exactly at at the forefront of concerns. Iraqi, Somali, Serbian, and Taliban opponents almost never wore them. However, the future was very uncertain at the time and NATO seemed to want to err on the safe side, so some -vaguely-defined- *arbitrarily-defined armor-piercing capability was desired to anticipate future threats.
The objective, as 9-Hole alluded to, was primarily to replace the outdated 9mm NATO/Luger/Parabellum with pretty much *anything* better - hence, the arbitrary CRISAT requirement to specifically beat the 9mm. 9mm ball/FMJ's garbage performance record was known well before the trials (look up Mike Durant's horror story with his MP5K in Somalia in "In the Company of Heroes" - a great read by the way), so it was a very fair decision to want to phase it out.
@@eddietat95 You bring up very good points, and I don't disagree with any of them. However, as a counter-point, consider this: European countries typically rely on their military forces for policing and counter-terror work, whereas the US is Constitution-bound to leave its military out of law enforcement. In battlefield situations, handguns are almost never used, and pistol-calibre carbines have been mostly superseded by short-barreled intermediate-calibre rifles, like the M4 and such. In their actual usage, the P90 and MP7 are mostly used by police and counter-terror units, and few handgun-calibre weapons see much use on the battlefield at all. The countries that relied upon the military for policing were the same countries that pushed for a round that could defeat common civilian body armour, and that round is mostly serviced for police and CT use even today. Does that really sound like a coincidence?
Don't get me wrong, the 5.7x28 would make a better service sidearm than 9mm, but sidearms are rarely used at all. As for PDWs for vehicle crews and such, typically intermediate-calibres are still used for that. Hilariously, the US issues its tank crews with shotguns and LMGs for its tanks, and an M4 for every tanker, so I don't think they're very interested in PCCs or SMGs for battlefield use, but maybe they have more traction in Europe.
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. My internet has been a mess recently. Look forward to hearing from you again. :)
@@jonathandoe1367 You're absolutely correct to point out that pistol/PDW-caliber rounds are rarely used in actual combat, however, they are still issued en masse - including in the US military. In the US Army alone, M9s are issued in the tens of thousands to NCOs, vehicle drivers/pilots, inside-the-wire types, and the standard rifle platoon issues 4 M9s for 2 M240 gunners and 2 officers. I also saw loads of folk with M9s while at the Pentagon. In the early years of GWOT, M9s were used extensively when the M16/M249/M500 was considered too unwieldy when clearing particularly tight rooms and tunnels. SMGs, however, have almost entirely been replaced by the short-barreled carbine, though they remain in stockpiles for SF use. Special forces/CT units aren't really relevant in this discussion since their choices are generally funded/sourced elsewhere, in smaller numbers, and with more freedom of selection.
The reason why NATO committed to this push away from 9mm, performance aside (and as 9-Hole also mentioned), was that - at the time (the 90s/early 00s) - many countries were finding that their 9mm SMGs/pistols were reaching the end of their scheduled service life. These had largely been purchased in the early-Cold War era when NATO started standardization efforts (think Hi-Powers, Uzis, early MP5s, etc.) and it was nearing time to replace them. Out of convenience, it was agreed to maintain NATO standardization, but to switch en masse to a new caliber entirely that would at least have *some* general improvement over the almost century-old 9mm FMJ without breaking Geneva Convention protocol. New caliber means new guns and convenient timing for aging inventory. Hence, the PDW projects came to pass.
Interestingly enough, the idea of the PDW replacing the pistol in most conventional roles (like the M1 carbine's raison d'ĂȘtre) came up at this time and that influenced FN and H&K's mindset towards the PDW - the pistol was to be an afterthought and the longarm was to be the primary focus. Germany was one of the few countries to successfully implement this mindset with the MP7 being fielded for medics/cooks/etc. over a pistol. Funnily enough, these auxiliary troops eventually traded for G36s whenever possible while in A-stan.
Well, NATO standardization never came through and every member state went a different path with pistol/PDW selection military-wise. All in all, short-barreled carbines all but replaced the 9mm SMG in all but the most niche roles (VIP protection - see the US Army's new APC9K, military police, very limited SF use). Pistols remained in 9mm, albeit somewhat modernized.
You're right, it's true that European LEOs still use the SMG/PDW extensively, but it isn't because of any cooperation with NATO. All LEOs basically benefit from military R&D because they don't have to pay for it. Post-trials, the new products just showed up in the FN and H&K catalogues sent to acquisition departments and some LEOs gained interest and bought them. Hence, the P90 and MP7 in LEO units. Why European LEOs went with SMGs/PDWs over intermediate-caliber carbines is beyond me, but my best guess is that they tend to produce a lower profile than assault rifles and are therefore less threatening. In Europe, the image/optics of the LE officer is a big deal and a sensitive topic given the history of "secret police" and paramilitaries in the continent. Mind you, assault rifles do exist in Euro-LEO inventory, but they're just hidden out of sight until SHTF (see the police response in the 2015 Paris attacks).
And, yes, you are also correct to point out that European militaries are more involved in domestic policing work than the US (Germany is a big exception). However, any similar use of weapons between military and police is purely coincidental. Their weapons are not funded, issued, or utilized in the same way. Mind you, military police (MPs) never do the job of civilian police - they strictly exist to protect military assets like bases. Military units deploying domestically are typically reservists adding additional security to an area temporarily, and in extra-ordinary circumstances. Domestic SWAT, CT teams, and area-security teams, though they may have arrangements for limited training with the military, are primarily trained *not* to kill unless necessary, which greatly differs from military doctrine. If a military wants to deploy troops domestically, it will do so with it's own funding, logistics, and training separate from the police. This goes for all NATO militaries. The distinct separation of military and police, as well as purely civilian legitimate control of said military and police, is actually one of the very many requirements for any new nation wanting to join/stay in NATO (well, you at least have to promise it within a certain timeframe, but that's another topic).
An appendage about military vs LEO training for PDWs: I found that many LEOs are ordered to shoot them in single-shot at first contact and to go full-auto in emergencies. In fact, many P90s (well, PS90s at that point) and MP7s in LEO hands are semi-auto only. Contrast that with military training: the Bundeswehr trains to shoot MP7s in FA bursts to the chest/head area. DEVGRU SEALs, according to Mark Owen, go further and train to dump the entire 40rd mag into one, single guy on FA. For SF use, the MP7 is deployed suppressed for taking out a single sentry, guard dogs, lights, tires of getaway vehicles, and, according to Owen, mowing down bad guys in one room without waking up the others in the next room. If the cops do that to fellow citizens, there will be hell to pay (we're talking criminal charges).
So that's the LONG story of PDW usage in military/NATO vs Euro-LEOs. As a personal note, I see the utility in the PDW, but I have serious doubts over whether it has a future as it stands today (with 5.7mm and 4.6mm), especially with hard armor (steel/ceramic/etc. at Level IV or better) becoming more prevalent in the commercial market and from hostile countries. I would recommend everyone check out the NATO trial report 9-Hole posted in the description for more details.
Excellent coverage of the obscure details of the NATO PDW program.
Excellent, excellent video. As an Infantry turned Acquisition officer this is a great overview that I rarely see.
Thanks for the history lesson, Henry. Now I can play Tarkov knowing that 4.6 and 5.7 shouldn't be penetrating my armor but does anyway :D
Which armor?
it DOES go through soft armor, they're talking about plate in this
@@bradhaines3142 yes I know
You should be more conserned that basic PM with 9*18FMJ should reliably penetrate helmets that reliably hold JHP 7.62*39 in the game
@@tsorevitch2409 also correct
Honestly, I never recall hearing about the Paratrooper requirement until fairly recently, just that someone in the 1970s/80s decided that maybe the Americans were not so crazy with the M1 Carbine concept, having an intermediate between the rifle and pistol ammunitions of the day, and building a cheap, compact, and simple-to-use weapon around that ammunition to arm non-riflemen. Most everyone at the time was still handing out rather heavy (the better part of 10 or more pounds each) SMGs in 9mm Parabellum, so anything that could deliver more accuracy with less training for less weight was going to be a massive improvement.
@LabRat Knatz e
The average MP5 weighs the same or less as the average P90 (2.5kg) with range of 2kg to 3.6kg depending on variant thats still a range of 4 pds to say 7 pds nothing near 10 pds. Stop pulling stuff out of thin air. This whole PDW debacle is just pathetic.
I love your videos, they're excellent quality and very informative.
Valuable content, as always. Thanks.
Exceptional well video, thank you very much!
I always questioned the Wikipedia articles, stating (while clearly written by FN 5.7 lovers) that 5.7 is equal or superior all the time (like same penetration to armor, barrel erosion with the 4.6 - nothing bad to 5.7) and is the only one who got it into STANAG. ("[...] though it was ultimately the 5.7Ă28mm cartridge that would eventually be designated as a NATO caliber with the NATO STANAG 4509 in late February 2021.") Its crazy how much misinformation is out there about PDWs, P90 and MP7.
To be fair, the penetration differences are essentially linked to projectile design and not the overall cartridge design. If FN decided to make a goofy solid chunk of steel projectile with a copper jacket, it'd outperform current 5.7x28 in penetration too.
@@superfamilyallosauridae6505 Yep. FN essentially took the tip of M855 and threw an aluminum core behind it, boom SS190.
@@markus2578 The articles are written by humans and are not supervised. "Wikipedia" does a good job overall, but its far from perfect. Just for the one thing you mentioned (while ignoring all my other statements), I quote the NATO report from the video "The 4.6mm cartrige has superior penetration[...]". And it should have, because it makes perfectly sense. (Same energy, smaller calibre. It HAS to penetrate better, and 5.7 mm HAS to do do a better job on wound channels on equal circumstances.) However the Wiki article states otherwise and shifts almost everything a bit to the 5.7 cartridge. I'm not a fan of something also, but for me its very clearly biased and this particular is very neutral.
â@@markus2578 There are 2 main differences of the cartridges, stated in the NATO report: 5.7 is "superior" for wound channels, 4.6 is superior for penetration. Therefore stating that 5.7 has "superior" wound channels and the same penetration is horrendously wrong. Statement 1 says none is superior overall (which is why both are standardized, at least its stated in this video and some STANAGs which look like it is, because the wiki says otherwise(!!!)), statement 2 says 5.7 is better overall. However, its not just that, there are many other statements which are wrong or are written like 5.7 is more superior than it should be.
And you dont need to ask others who dont know anything about cartridges or dont know the statements made in this video. You can just accept what is written there and it looks fine. But it isnt when you look deeper.
â@@markus2578 I cant really answer that question, because it depends. Probably a short 11-14" 5.56 assault rifle as a weapon for everyting. (300 BLK is a sexy cartridge too, but not that well spread.) Im impressed by the current WWSD for example, so probably one of these. (AR-15 or -18 with a modern setup like red dot & 4x or 6x scope.) HK416 is cool because of its users and history, but Im no soldier so I probably dont need all the features and reliability as a sort of every day carry. But I would use it if they are zombies around. I use it in games often, but wouldnt buy one.
Just say MP7 or P90 for our discussion. In a car, as a real PDW, P90, which stays there, for sure. Very sleek and a 50 round mag? Thats crazy. But for "normal" use, like self defending on the go / in buildings and carrying around as a small main weapon with mag changes etc. probably the MP7. (You can even holster it!)
Tank would be easier. The Leopard 2A6 and newer are sexy beasts, I buy 10 of them :P
(But then its not versatile enough. Wouldnt a Puma be better? I could haul my buddies with it. Argh! OK, 5 Leos and 5 Pumas!)
Whats yours?
Go with Stargate SG1 - D90, 5.7 cartridge! Provided in hundreds of firefight in many different world environments and in 2 different galaxies over time!
This is the kind of crossover content I was asking for
Great video!
Thx for posting gents.
Little bit of a note on the PP-2000: the comparisons to western PDWs is all marketing. Currently, its use is seen pretty much exclusively with domestic close protection units and relatively low-budget Rosguard SWAT and counter-terror units as a relatively cheap machine pistol for use with shield doctrine. The PP-19-01 Vityaz has become far more common a rear-echelon gun by comparison. Rather, the demand for their over-pressure armor-piercing 9mm variants likely has more to do with a combination of the standardization of 9x19 parabellum as the standard pistol cartridge with the MP443 Grach (which is designed to cycle 7n21) AND the phasing out of the AKS-74U.
These sorts of armor-piercing 9mm cartridges were already popular with Russian CTUs and close protection well before western PDW development came to light, ie the SR-1 and SR-2 using 9x21Gyurza cartridges, and the SR-3 and SR-3M using 9x39 cartridges from a much shorter barrels than the VSS or AS-VAL. These were all made in response to FSB specifications likely in response to domestic combatants (such as in the Caucasus) wearing Soviet era body armor, usually pilfered from military warehouses. Note the design of all of these bullets from the SP-6 through to the 7n31, and you can clearly see their delineation.
Funny thing: AKS-74U is being held onto by army SpetsNaz. They found it to be an utter diamond in the rough when it comes to close-range fighting. All it needed was a modernization kit, and it became a FAR superior weapon to any SMG/Machine Pistol for battle use.
Crazy, but there was a video where a soldier hit a target with an AKS-74U at 365 meters. Video is by an instructor from a Russian University of SpetzNaz.
You are completely wrong. Russian army isn`t adopting or going to adopt any smgs. AKS-74U is army`s PDW and it is not going to change. PP19, SR2, SR3, PP2000 are counter-terrorist and law enforcment weapons only, featuring compact design and short lethal range (because you don`t want to shoot AKS74U with lethal range over 1000m in a city full of civilians) and some penetration power. Also SR3 and SR3m have about the same barrel length as VAL, which actual barrel is hidden by its supressor. On the other side, army doesn`t want to equip its soliders with low-range smg, which can only fire at the distances that are rare in modern war
Great info
That was very interesting (and probably quite a lot of work) - thanks for the effort.
Amazingly informative. Thank you for sharing.
Should've contacted Adam Savage and asked to use the name Mythbusters for this video!!đ€Łđ€Ł
There's a saying that fits this situation - "Committees are God's gift to procrastination, sloth, and delay", and that describes NATO's process in the PDW trials perfectly. Thanks Henry!!
Sadly he's not a fan of gun ownership, and probably wouldn't collaborate
@@marcusborderlands6177 Also pretty certainly doesn't own the necessary rights to the term, those are more than likely held tightly by Discovery.
Probably just makes more sense for the US to use m4s instead of either PDW.
This is seriously an underrated channel.
Very Informative! Thanks for your research.
Dust off your tokarevs and modernize the 7.62Ă25mm. Such an underrated cartridge out of a carbine. Make the PPsh great again
I wonder why we didn't go with something like 5.45x25. Considering that later everyone switched from 9x18 to 9mm Luger why not go even further.
@@trofchik9488 Didn't the chinese basically do that with their pistol cartridge 5.8x21 or something like that.
â@@Deathbyreality1 Just looked into it and it seems like they did. Minus the velocity due to heavier bullet.
Yeah 5.8 is like half the weight of 7.62 but the same speed??? Keep the original case and weight, pop one of those steel nipples on the end of it, your welcome NATO. ...I'll take those millions in R&D of your hands
They have bizon in 7.62 tokarev. They even made a helical mag version for it
Letâs see a video on that USP tactical!
that was great, keep em coming
Really happy to see The BuffMan ballistic testing footage!
17:22 - I wonder if this dry lubricated case is the reason why Chris at Small Arms Solutions could not get the P90 to work with American Eagle 5.7x28 while it works perfectly in 5.7 pistols.
The issue with AE TMJ is it's short bullet and Fiocchi (Fiocchi loads all SS197SR, Speer Gold Dot, and AE TMJ until at least 2023) does not crimp case necks. They use a glue. That glue and short bullet means not a lot of surface for the glue to attach to, and set back occurs. You can increase the reliability of AE TMJ 5.7 by mechanically crimping the case neck. All Factory 5.7 brass is made by FN and has the coating.
One of the best debunking videos ever, on any topic.
Heads will spin after this drops. Believers will probably come up with conspiracy theories:
"Come on, everybody knew it was about penetrating Russian body armor but nobody said it out loud because politics"
Yeah, right.
Great job guys
This is very interesting information!
Thank you for this very informative video.
.224 Boz was based on the 10mm case rather than 9mm. 6.5 CBJ would fit right into this discussion too.
This was mainly about the NATO trials and not the swedish neutral alternative also the 6.5 CBJ didn't go anywhere and as i understand it is dead.
@@bengtjakobsson5177 yeah, it apparently dropped out of the Nato trials but it fits the 9mm interchangeable aspects better than the BOZ , I know B&T looked at it ,very scarce info.
@@jamesbridges7750 Yes there was a lot of talk about it around 20 years ago but since then it's been quiet. Unlike these two it seems to have primarely been designed as an armor penetrator and were maybe to specialised.
Originally a 10mm, then put into a 9mm, both necked down to a 50 gr .223/5.7mm round.
It's like the old adage (although un- true) USA spent millions developing a pen that would write in space, Russia used a pencil.
Fascinating, thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the work on this info, very enjoyable. I've always been interested in the 7n21 and 7n31 cartridges. But never knew it was the answer to the 5.7
When I did a "hypothetical" PDW cartridge design I followed the concept of the 6.8mm SPC, with personal edits. Where as the SPC is a "compromise" between the 5.56mm NATO and 7.62x39mm M43. I used the 5.56mm and 9mm NATO. My creation is a 6.5x27mm (a shortened 6.8mm SPC parent case) with a 95gr bullet at around 2150-2250fps. My simple requirements is for a cartridge that would fit a grip magazine in a firearm with an 10.5in barrel in a package at 24in or less, with ballistics close to a 5.56 at 300yds. The direct "compromise" design would have been a "7x32mm" cartridge. In my opinion this would have been too long for a grip mounted magazine.
Well, how about the 7.5 FK ? It seems to be a good PDW cartridge. Surprisingly your hypothetical cartridge almost match the swedish 6.5x25 CBJ
Having owned a Five-seveN, that grip is long.
I would say that you cannot exceed .45 case overall length to be a useful cartridge.
Bureaucracy kills everything except the enemy.
This was wonderful, helpful info, thanks
Great video, great info!!
No soviet paratroopers were hurt during the shooting of this video.
Woah! lets talk about the footage of the L1A1 with an EM-2 optic on it :)
Great video as usual. Say Lang Chai!!!
Really great work.
HELL YEAH
13:29 what a chad. "carry me out, i'll cover you"
Very interesting. Thank you.
I learned stuff here. Keep it comin' Texas!
NATO in 2002: Hmm, Idk between 5.7 and 4.6
NATO 18 years later: Both. Both is good.
"The great thing about Standards, is that there are so many to choose from!"
---My engineering teacher in tech school, 2010ish?
@@OutsideTheTargetDemographic LOL!
@@jaysblades That little passive statement BLEW my mind for a SOLID 15 minutes. đ€Ż
It is important to recognize that european armies do not use 9mm hollow points, but only FMJ ammo. Hollow points are banned under The Hague Convention, which only the US did not join. So europeans were also looking for pistols, sidearms and PDWs with another wounding mechanism other than expansion, most likely "unintentional" fragmenting at high speed or tumbling of longer, unstable projectiles to phase out the old 9mm FMJ. Europeans wouldn't be allowed to shoot their guns if they got resupplied by US forces with m855a1 or mk318 sost / bear claw 5.56 ammo or 9mm hollow points.
Speaking of hollow-point ammunition, the exact wording is quite elegant:
"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which
expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions."
Pretty sure the US have joined the hague convention but use hollow points because the hague convention applies only when fighting other signatories not when fighting non signatory forces (this is also why US police etc can and do use hollow points).
"Section 6.5.4.4 of the DOD manual, âExpanding Bullets,â states that â[t]he law of war does not prohibit the use of bullets that expand or flatten easily in the human body.â Hollow point bullets âare only prohibited if they are calculated to cause superfluous injury.â The manual goes on to provide three reasons why expanding bullets are lawful for use in armed conflict:
(1) The 1899 Declaration on Expanding Bullets âonly creates obligations for Parties to the Declaration in international armed conflicts in which all the parties to the conflict are also Parties to the Declarationâ (the United States is not Party to the Declaration).
(2) The Defense Department determined in a 2013 review that the 1899 Declaration does not reflect customary international law.
(3) Expanding bullets as manufactured today are not âinherently inhumane or needlessly cruel.â"
www.justsecurity.org/25200/dod-law-war-manual-returns-hollow-point-bullets-armed-conflict/
Thank you, I enjoy.
Yeah, but Solidus didnât roll around with dual PPK-20s. 5.7 wins.
When MW2 was released, I had an akimbo P90 loadout named "Solidus" haha
The ppk-20 is a modernize version the pp-19 both are chambered in 9x19. the gun doesn't matter 7n31 is in 9x19 any 9mm weapon can use it in comparison 5.7 and 4.6x30 are not universal at all. The point of the trials was to get a universal cartridge to replace 9mm both failed in doing so.
@@shootinbruin3614 nice!
Thanks! Finally, solid info without propaganda. Remember, how it was in 2000-s, when p90 could penetrate a death star according to internet experts.
Oh god I remember.
That .224 Boz is fucking adorable
The p90 won out and a thousand units were shipped to stargate command. Yet they skipped the companion 5.7 pistol and kept the berettaâs. Then again the SGC still used USAS12âs which are south korean and jam all the time.
Interested in hearing more about the mp7 specifically why the seals chose to use it above the other options. It isnât hard to find 9mm rounds that can penetrate 3a armor and the mp7 canât pen hard armor, so would like to hear more there.
I almost wonder if it has to do with the options they had available for a 9mm pdw at the time. MP7 would be better than almost all of them, at least then and possible even now.
@@domenik8339 maybe it was just the modern features, there were versions of MP5s made in very limited runs with more modern features like bolt release and such. With the charging handle it (the mp7) would probably have a more similar manual of arms to the m4, or 416.
At the 3:16 mark, "There was a lack of US involvement" NOTHING could have been better, had our pentagon been involved it would have been a sh@tshow
Nah, they could have come up with ".308 for the 2000's". Would have been great. Oh, wait, that's what 6.8mm is...
It ended up being a sh@tshow anyway, ended up in adoption of 2 cartridges that supposed to replace one that remained the logistic chain.
Itâs wasnât a sh&$ show as it was?
Excelente video
Very interesting thanks for this informative video
I love the mp7 aesthetically and how easy is it is to handle. The p90 has to be given credit for the very forward thinking ideas it had too.
I thought I knew the whole story already. Neat that I'm still learning 20 years later.
Also, props to this Oxide fellow for using Command and Conquer music in the background.
Logistics is the cornerstone of everything. Russians did the straight and easy way to find a solution, bravo. NATO did not... not bravo.
Anyway, I think the real looser was the Magpul who made a great weapon, the PDR (on paper at least) but never went into serious trials. It was compact, lightweight and ergonomic and used standard NATO 5.56 cartridge and STANAG magazine. What was the problem than? It could be a great firearm for vehicle drivers (any kind of, aerial, water or ground), heavy weapon operators (artillery for example) or non combatant military persons (medics, etc). I really would love hear your opinion in a discussion video like this one about the Magpul PDR.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magpul_PDR
In a pistol length barrel the 5.56mm cartridge expends a lot of its energy making flash and noise meaning it will blind its shooter at night and tend to make them disorientated and deafened after firing just a few rounds. This weapon then puts all that blast 6-8" from the shooter's face so every round fired will make you feel like you got punched in the face. I suspect it failed because shooting it is an awful experience that makes the shooter brown out pretty fast.
*Edited for spelling and grammar.
@@SurmaSampo Yes, I think you must be right. But there is no option to make it more convenient to shoot? Maybe using sound suppressor or something like that?
@@Cuccos19 Use less powder, faster burning powder, a heavier slug, a longer barrel, or some combination of the above.
@@muninrob But at that point, you are back to having logistical issues with specialized ammo. The whole point of the MDR exercise was to have a PDW in P90-ish form factor that fires standard 5.56 mm NATO rounds.
Hell, apparently in "Iraqistan", most people who got issued pistol never got 9 mm NATO ammo for it. So chances are, the rear line troop in the alternative timeline who got issued MDR would have to shoot M855 just like everybody else, and they have the extra privilege of getting punched in the face by the propellant gas every time they shoot.
@@BicyclesMayUseFullLane If you rule out changing the ammo, you'll need a longer barrel. That would probably mean a bullpup design if you still want to fit the form factor.
Myself I'd prefer faster burning powder pushing a heavier bullet, but I lack the engineering / math skills to figure out what it would do to the chamber of currently used 5.56 weapons. (probably make that M16A2 you were unlucky enough to draw blow up in your face, or throw the bolt through your head)
In my experience (US Army H-60 crew), ammo for the M9 grew on trees, it was the 5.56, 7.62, .50 BMG, and 40MM that we had a hard time requisitioning enough of to even keep everyone qualified. (Thanks USMC 3rd ID - your "leftovers" got us qualified, our requisition arrived 2 months after y'all left)
Love your channel
Great video. More
As far as 5.7 vs 4.6 goes; the MP7 looks like the more practical PDW being that it's more compact but the P90 is one of the coolest looking guns ever. So they were right to standardized both.