When they don't make the demons evil
Vložit
- čas přidán 8. 07. 2024
- Frieren's exploration of demons is really interesting. It's probably the thing I got the most hung up on in my first watch through. After spending a lot of time thinking about it I feel like I learned a lot about the way I want to think about media. It ended up giving me answers for other shows I struggled to enjoy. Interesting.
A/B testing Thumbnail inspiration:
• How many trees are the...
Support me on patreon!
/ peythemusician
Follow me on instagram!
/ peythemusician
#frieren #anime #pey - Krátké a kreslené filmy
Oh, how you'll love the next big arc. You'll absolutely adore El Dorado.
With Malice mentioned 5 times in the video I am so spiraling to think if he hasn't read it yet
@@TH_Sofa I haven't read any frieren manga yet, just building off the 1st season. No spoilers!! haha
El dorado boutta be fire for sureee
if that Arc will be a 2,5 hour movie with title "Frieren : The Mage of Flower againt Everlasting Gold" i'll be in the theatre 6 hour before it premiere
I tend to think of El Dorado to be like a curious cat trying to understand its prey. But I can’t wait for Pey’s perspective 😆
The reason I love demons in Frieren is because the author explicitly made Demons as close to human as possible. I think that the minute differences made between humans and demons help speak to what it means to be human and why I think the overall thesis of Frieren is about learning to be human. The contrasts the author puts against humans is so loud when you think about how close they are to actually being human. Frieren isn't about the long lives or mortality that makes someone human. Its about connection and someone who lives on the border of human and demon.
WUT? Demons in Frieren if you look carefully arent "made" to be as close to human as possible. The old demons, from prievious generation most seem to be monstrous like Qual. They were ugly and inhuman and were eventually phased outta existence. From what I can tell it's only the last generation of demons that resembles humans and are very cute and sexy basically as means to gain upper hand. All the huge ugly monsters like Qual are gone. They were ineffective. So demons evolved to be cute instead. They werent always like that.
IDK the demons seemed irredeemable to me. As explained in the show, demons are humanoid monsters who can speak. And all monsters are biologically bound to universal psychopathy. Think of Ted Bundy, but as a whole branch of the animal kingdom. That's pretty far away from the baseline from your average human.
There's a manga arc which follows very briefly after the end of the anime material which involves the Demon Macht. It's really an opportunity for Kanehito Yamada to go further in depth with the nature of demons, as the arc is primarily about Macht spending years sincerely attempting to understand humanity through pointed conversations and observation while walking among them pretending to have been made harmless by magic. It really conveys how alien the mindset the demon's is to a human - and vice versa - while displaying the interiority of a demon who isn't actively seeking power or conquest.
It's my favourite arc . I especially liked how they executed the ending.
Yes its interesting because they are a demons and human laws and emotions or what we call the norm does not apply to them. Its one of my favourite arc and it also shows that demons like Macht who pursue understanding with humans are the most dangerous.
bro just casually spoiled things that are only learned at the later parts of the arc 🤣
@@Re_V😅 they're really just pulling All this out. Hope the guy didn't see this. Thankfully I saw them talking about and stopped before I read on. I know I only and I wish to stay that way
@@Re_V as a person that already knows the arc i consider this a minor spoiler. Its not going to affect your experience in my opinion
Look there’s like 3 ways that I think I commonly see in fiction
1. Evil, they’re the enemies of the main characters usually sadistic and mentally fucked so viewers would never agree with them
2. They’re hot as fuck
3. The word “demon” is used for what is essentially another race of people in a multi-race fantasy world
Demons in frieren is monster specie, not a human race like dwarf or elf
Somehow the three can be applicable at the same time.
the reason ALL humanoid demons in frieren are attractive is because it helps them deceive humans. thats it. its another camouflage
I think they're doing 3 with Tsukimichi. There is a race of demons, but they actually seem to be a group of other races that previously inhabited the world and were displaced when the goodness arrived with her humans. So the war they wage against humans is mostly just them taking back their lands.
I would need to read the novels to fully understand that, but I really don't want to, so the spoilers I got will have to suffice for now.
It's because Japan does not have christian heritage. From their perspective a demon is not the personification of evil, but a humanoid with non-human features such as wings, tails or horns. Effectively a demi-human.
As a Japanese person I wanted to give insight to Mushoku Tensei title. The actual full title in Japanese is ” Mushoku Tensei: I will seriously try in another world”. I feel like this title is important because it essentially says the entire theme of the story in the title. “TRY” is the big factor that this story always emphasizes.
I believe Mushoku is interested in asking the question "Do you or will you regret it? Than try your best to do something about it." Rudeus regrets not taking action in his previous life but never regrets being a horn dog. That is why Rudeus in this life still has the same tendency but tries his absolute hardest to learn magic.
But I also don't think MT is saying "Just trying will get you results" as there is many time characters who tries their absolute hardest fails. But what that action give is closure. You may have not gotten the result you wanted but at least you tried... I believe that is what MT is trying to convey.
I agree. A lot of people say MT is about a second chance. A second chance... at what? Well, it's about a second chance at simply living. Part of living is making mistakes - thousands of them. Part of it is also about being inconsistent, hypocritical, being an asshole - all the ugly things we have all done and experienced and try to push to the back of our minds. MT isn't a diluted story that tells us of a scumbag becoming a paragon. It's a story of a scumbag given another chance to LIVE, make mistakes, make himself and others happy, love, be hurt, hurt others - all of that and more.
@@akaneriyun4774 Exactly that, and that's why I love it. Rudy does get punished for being a horndog, but it shows just how human he is that he only really learns on a case by case basis. He pervs on Lilia and Roxy until Lilia tells him to stop. He accidentally undresses Sylphy thinking that she was a boy, and doesn't perv on her afterwards to anywhere near the same extent he did Lilia and Roxy. He pervs on Eris until she beats the crap out of him, and is then on his best behaviour across the entire Demon Continent. Rudy reprimands Aisha when she offers a "reward" to him, saying kids shouldn't say things like that (hypocritical, sure, but also good and responsible). And then he and Eris sleep together, after which her letter utterly destroys him to the point that when he meets Sara, he just *_can't_* perv on her. He's just too damn depressed to even try.
When he and Sylphy get married, it isn't the aphrodisiac or even the _act_ that cures him, it's the knowledge that someone loves him for who he is, ugly faults and terrible mistakes all. And while he broke his promise, it was a promise that Sylphiette never planned on holding against him, so long as he didn't go to a _brothel._ In other words, expanding the family's all good, just not playing around.
And that is all just a single facet of the character that is Rudy. There's his relationships with his parents, both Japanese and Greyrat. There's how he interacts with the world, and is naive to common sense even after almost two decades of life, simply because he's never run into such a "common sense" situation before. Polygamy is met with shrugs by most of the world, with only those of the Milis faith considering it to be horrible.
There's just so much to love in the world MT builds that disliking it because you can't compartmentalize its story as "it's a redemption" just feels... I dunno. In bad faith, or immature.
This is a better read of the show than I think most of its fans give. I think this also shows a "problem" the video maker has in engaging with media.
A point was made in the video is that media should treat evil with seriousness proportionate to the evil. If you do not hold that opinion, then your experience with media is going to be different. Especially if you add in the extra effort of listening for dog whistles.
I do neither of those things most of the time, but the fans of MS may have that issue because some of them cannot grapple with Rudy being a pedo (mostly in the beginning, i hear he grows out of it which also seems to be the point.) My issue is that despite solid writing And characterization it falls into the trap of making rudy inconsistent.
@@SuperiorPosterior I'm currently watching MT and I think it's fair to say that Rudy does show character growth throughout the story. He's far from perfect as a person, but he recognizes the need to change and grow. He knows that he was responsible for most of his own suffering in his prior life and he learns from that.
@@SuperiorPosterior MT is also about Rudeus excusing a groomer that pedo his own child
6:15 Pey: *says demons are only acting on self preservation*
Also Pay: *shows a scene where a demon attacks someone for no other reason than because they can and gets themself killed for having done so*
From an evolutionary behavior standpoint, demons living in caves benefited from attacking humans, but the moment they emerged humans were no longer reliable prey, there were infinitely better options. Especially now that they looked humanoid, they could use their body shape as a form of mimicry to hunt species who had become friends with humans, or simply pretend to be human and blend in, but instead they attack the species they would have gained most from becoming symbiotic with, which they wouldn't even have to try very hard to do. Neither the show or manga offer a reason demons need to eat specifically humans aside from nutrients and availability during early evolution, adventurers wandering into dark caves, so even prior to attaining sapience they should have already switched food sources, unless there's some factor we've missed.
You'd have to also factor in fantastical elements with a huge leap of imagination to make sense of the evolution of demons in the world of Frieren.
The demons evolved to feed on humans because humans are the best sources of mana. Unlike humans, mana is the demon's literal life force that needs replenishment from an outside source. They're literally made of mana that needs constant input of external mana sources to maintain their form. How do we know this? Unlike humans, when demons die they completely disintegrate into thin air.
While that is as good as a headcannon, it's still logically sound in a world where mana is an essential element of existence.
I love your comment, but I mostly wanted to tell you how much I appreciate you using SAPIENCE correctly instead of throwing the overused (and 99.99% of the time, wrongly) word "sentience" when actually speaking of "sapience" lmao.
Ik my reply might seem random, but I'm so tired of seeing people on Internet (even authors, gosh...) use "sentience" instead of "sapience" (obviously when indeed speaking of "sapience").
Heck, even in my own WIP universe, I use the word a lot and my advisors/friends early on would ask me if I meant "sentience" 🗿🗿
" unless there's some factor we've missed" It's that the demons are evil.
I mean, one problem with that is no species really is just friends with humans (unless you mean other humanoids but, same issue). Wild animals almost invariably fear humans when humans move into the area with very few exceptions - and honeyguides aren’t good eating, really - and domestic animals are often just as heinous to try to attack as a human is because of how human pack-bonding works.
I’ll admit I haven’t watched the series, but it could be a specialization thing. Targeting humans at this point might be more instinctual than strictly necessary, and I have my doubts they’d be able to ally with humans after the long history of eating them - even if only in caves beforehand. It’d be like a fox trying to befriend chickens and mice, they’re simply not built to innately recognize them as more than prey. Hell, even humans have some issues with this kind of thing, though mostly culturally learned rather than properly instinctual, and usually relegated to speech rather than to action - I think we’ve all at least heard of someone joking about eating chicken when someone mentions having a pet chicken after all, haven’t we?
@@franckymagines that shit still puzzles me to this day. what is the difference between sapience and sentience.
I didn't expect this series to get better and expand to comparing other shows artfully,
but again you continue to impress with having more meaningful things to share about the show we all enjoyed.
oh u will be completely proven wrong in future seasons :D, the demons are heavily expanded on.
Next arc would be even fire than the season 1 arc. Spoiler : Edel 😳
This is very interesting to me, because I had the complete opposite reaction of that the demons were finally just evil, they weren’t humans that just had horns and acted bad with strong powers or something. They were actually different and evil. There is no peace treaty to bargain with. I feel like in other media, demons are just what I explained earlier. Different humans. Bad people that just need to be understood to be able to have peace with. I’m not saying I hate that, I’m just tired of seeing it so much and Frieren demons were such a breath of fresh air for me.
They aren't evil, though. They are wild beasts. Polar bears will kill and eat any human they can get their hands on. They can't be trained or made safe to be around, but they aren't evil. Frieren's demons are the same.
Evolved demons no less.
To be evil, but to primarily use manipulation instead of pure power, is more aligned with the past depictions of demons or what we see in the Bible.
It really is fresh to just see evil being evil, not misunderstood or something. Just wholly evil by nature, and in a way that can't be broken
Yea demons in frieren are naturally evil but still sentient and real. And I love that. It felt so fresh and "new"
You could almost compare them to psychopaths (as in you cant really understand them and Just see them as evil)
@@kyuriht yeah, exactly!
@@Aizelav I think you both missed the point. Frieren calls it out very specificly. They are wild beasts. They are dangerous and violent, but they aren't evil any more than a polar bear is.
Something to say as I am half way through the video and you mentioned this twice. Demons DO NOT need to eat humans to live. This is specifically stated. And yet they do. I feel like this is heavily important in a discussion on weather these demons are evil and what evil is.
Frieren herself has similar traits to the demons. She toys with them, deceives them... But it looks like these traits were taught to her by Flamme.
And as she could be full of hatred to them she is pretty calm when dealing with them. She does not look like she is enjoying it though, it looks like work to her, something that needs to be done. She does get the satisfaction of work well done at the end though..
This is exactly what a demon later told Frieren. Telling if her could kill another human-looking creature in cold blood then maybe she isn't much different than them.
It is taught to her. Base on Flamme's explanation. Elves aren't the type to run away from conflict, even if it's a tactical retreat.They face their problems,head on, even if it means their deaths.
And demons took advantage of this.
On top of the Demon attacks- as they see them as their biggest threat, AND Elves rarely reproducing,(because they saw it as pointless due to their long lifespan) the elf race is now nearly extinct.
Even NOW they don't seem to prioritize repopulation. Base on the three elves we have met so far.
And there is a whole arc that will likely be shown in season 2 that explores this beautifully
I also love when demons aren't evil.
It means the mana we can harvest from them by putting them into machine that torture them 24/7 isn't tainted by the negative plane, and can easily be refined into any kind of mana.
Think of the economagical possibilities !
The demons aren't evil.... You are
Bro what!?
LMAO! 😂
But the demons are evil, almost as evil as you
Found the Magi-capitalist
arguably, the demons can represent nature *itself*. you can see the hero party as analogous to the advancement in technology, human knowledge and the collective wisdom of society, like in frieren being a thousand years old, representative of the culmination of knowledge, and the defeat of the demon lord being the ultimate triumph of society against nature.
Simply hubris. We think today that we've won against nature, and that is not going to end well for ourselves. It's already looking quite dire.
Just a note about Mushoku. The redemption thing has always been a weird obsesion with people, they want to see characters redeemed. But MT has never beed about that, it's just about living, about stepping outside and dealing with life.
And there's also a weird thing specially with american audiences that I'll never understand and it's that they look for teaching in adult media. Media aimed at adults is the only place where reality can and should be showcased; bad people win, the rich get richer and not everyone learns their lessons.
Mushoku is about redemption, just a different concept of redemption than some people have in their minds. For me, redemption means to seek to be better, without a tangible, beneficial motive, it's self improvement for the sake of it, not because doing the right thing will help you avoid being punished, and that's exactly what Mushoku is about, it's about Rudeus trying to be better, regardless of how much the world around him doesn't think he needs it. MT's redemption isn't entirely about moral redemption either, that's just part of it, beyond that, just doing *something* with yourself is a kind of redemption for someone who took advantage of his situation to avoid that before, he's improved immensely, even when, at times, it would have benefited him to just not in his new life
A line from the end of volume 26 sums it up nicely
"I just lived the best life I could--so that if I died the next day, I'd have no regrets. That's what's important
@@tomykong2915 I agree, and i love that people (mostly hater) keeps saying that his bad action get rewarded in s2.. They tend to forget the first part of s2. They tend to forget that, ""doing it""" with Roxy is not being "rewarded", since Sylphie already stated before that she was fine with it (and in the LN she was mostly forced to accept since Elinalise lied)... And since the anime didn't really get a true focus on, it tainted his new relationship with Norn again.
Humans: What drives you to such cruelty and wickedness?
Demons: lmao get fucked idk what that is
7:40 we also need to remember that Frieren give demons chances to redeem themselves over and over again but every time they refuse
what would happen if you gave a lion several chances to "redeem" themselves by choosing not to kill and eat prey? they'd probably "refuse" as well.
are humans irredeemable as long as they keep killing and eating other animals? even as these animals plead for their lives and suffering with all the communication skills they have?
@@gamongames precisely that, yeah. I was just coming to say that it was less that the demons *chose* not to be redeemed so much as they simply didn't understand what there was to redeem, or even the concept of redemption itself.
@@gamongamesdemon doesn't necessary need to eat human to survive. Human is just part of their natural prey, they can live well off without ever consume human. But eat human is part of their nature
@@HoaTruong-km9rkumans to stop eating animal, and live in other food sources
@@BBBS-ne5te what ?
I disagree with your premise that a story must accord with my morals to be worthwhile or enjoyable.
(how many stories are about a _true king reclaiming the throne,_ completely counter to my idea of a just society?)
I _do_ think that if a story is going to give me the icks, it needs to earn it somehow. Maybe by leveraging the ick, maybe by telling a story that wouldn't otherwise be possible, or maybe by being just too damn good to dismiss, even if it has something I don't like. Very much like how if a story does something to strain my suspension of disbelief, the story needs to be doing something that makes the stretch worth it (see eg mr btongue on magic and "why put a wizard in it?").
I'm a firm believer in no story (except that specifically for children), has any moral obligation to be "right".
If the the storytelling is gripping, what more do I need?
Agreed. We are adults. We don't need to be taught morality in fiction.
@@jaideepshekhar4621fiction enforced beliefs and inadvertently os a reflection of the values the author holds close to their heart.
There's so many microdifferences between American and Japanese media in terms of morality and beliefs. It inevitably leads to a culture clash.
There are levels to it. I hate watching or reading anything that makes emperor's the good, romantic guy. It goes so far against the actually reality and my morals compass that I don't like reading it.
@@upg5147well it depends on how the story itself presents such morals. I can easily watch or read something that has awful shit going on that goes against everything I believe. But if a story tries to justify those things within the narrative, then I no longer want to participate in it.
I think you make a good argument, but I also think there are some scenes that undercut what you're saying. If you look at Lugner versus Fern, you see that while the outcomes of the two ambushes are similar, Fern was trying to kill Lugner and missed while Lugner had the same opportunity and, if I'm remembering the scene correctly, intentionally went for the option that caused Fern more pain. That, I would argue, is not the behavior of a predator trying to take out a threat. That is the behavior of someone who is being cruel because he wants to. That is what I think most people would argue is an evil act.
It's not the only one, either. In some its more subtle, but still there. This one just happens to be the most blatant example that I remember. I'll agree that the demons are excellently done in Frieren, but I don't think they represent nature in the same way you are talking about. Then again, I do believe that there is such a thing as an objective evil and an objective good, and from that viewpoint you can say that a good person opposing great evil is a person versus nature story. The nature in question just happens to be human nature.
Just my two cents while I should really be asleep. 😛
Do demons really have to be benign and NOT evil to represent nature? It could just be in their nature to be sadistic. Evil also lies in nature, you know.
I disagree. For one, humankind always has some people who choose the path of more pain but it would be stupid to call all of humankind evil when it’s only a minority. Secondly, animals and plants, despite being seen as natural and neutral, have very sadistic ways of surviving.
A venus fly trap for example does not need to evolve methods of melt the body of an insect to feed off the liquid version of its body but it does. A orca does not need to slap a manta ray ten feet into the air to kill it but it tenderizes the meat. Despite the instincts driving most animals, most animals still know what “fun” is and how to partake in it and every action we mostly judge them on is based on anthropomorphism on their behavior since we use relative judgement to judge what we consider “right” or “wrong” when it’s all neutral.
Is a Kangaroo evil for leaving their child to die? For us, yes, because humans view life as generally precious. For the Kangaroo, it means living another year and just making another baby to replace them. Is an any colony evil for enslaving other ants they’ve raided? There’s a lot of scenarios when put into human morally seemed messed up but is the natural order for these animals.
Cats, that's the only thing you really gotta say to dispute this, cats toy with their prey, pretty consistently. Stimulation is also a need for species with brains
@@tomykong2915 If I recall correctly, the reason cats, at least housecats "play" with their prey has more to do with disabling it and preventing it from harming the cat than anything like malice or a need to play. Granted, intelligent animals often do engage in play, but that's not what's happening with cats whenever they bat around a mouse from what I understand.
@@seraphywang4638 Actually, Venus fly traps and other carnivorous plants pretty much had to do just that in order to survive in their native environments. The insects provide nutrients that the plants need. They're plants, so they don't produce the energy needed to use quicker forms of killing the insects. Basically, trapping and digesting the insect while it's alive really is the only way for carnivorous plants to do that because they're reliant on what the structures and mechanisms that evolved in plants, and that doesn't include fast acting muscles.
As for orcas, it still kills the manta ray quickly, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were other reasons for them to do it that way, like avoiding injury like you see with cats.
Ants are not that intelligent, and as far as I'm aware there's really only one species of ant that would do something like this, and it only works because the colonies outside of South America, which is where those ants come from, haven't really diverged from each other enough for them to see those colonies as different colonies. If I remember right, that same species of ants does fight itself in its native habitat because the colonies are different enough for them to see each other as threats.
But as for as ants in general go? What we're seeing with them is a lot like what we see in video games or with AI. There's a set of relatively simple behaviors and instincts (or routines and conditions in the case of the computer stuff) that results in emergent behaviors that appear to be intelligent at first glance. It's not, but to most people it appears that way.
I can't really argue with you about applying human values and ethics to the actions of other animals, but then again, I'm not trying to. I am arguing that the demons are not as gray or neutral as Pey says they are.
While the mindset of demons does have some very alien elements to it, I'd argue that they are still very much human in some significant ways, and not just because of their appearance.
One of the comments mentions that evil occurs in nature, and I think the issue with that is that, by and large, most animal's brains do not work like ours. For demons, it's clear that they don't either, not exactly, but I'll get back to that in a moment. The question I have is what makes someone sadistic? You have to derive pleasure from the pain and humiliation that you cause. It's right there in the definition. So now we have to ask what is the intent? Why does an animal do something? As far as I'm aware, humans are really the only things that have the capacity to be sadistic, to know that we are causing pain and take pleasure from that. Even our closest cousins, the other great apes, don't show behaviors like that, again as far as I'm aware.
So what does that mean for demons? I've already mentioned Lugner and how he started his fight with Fern, but Lugner's hardly the only demon to show something that I would call sadism. Aura shows a smug satisfaction when she thinks she has Frieren beaten, and instead of trying to kill her quickly, she draws it out. I doubt it would have mattered in the end, but it does show what I would call a desire to relish in her superiority over Frieren. We see something similar with Draht when he tries to take Frieren's head and again with Linie where she draws the fight out with Stark.
And I think that it's significant that the four demons with the most screentime so far do show those tendencies towards sadism. Most of Qual's screentime was spent on the fight against Frieren and Fern. There wasn't a lot of time for characterization in that, and to be honest, he really didn't stick in my mind that well. It's the same for the demons we see when Frieren remembers how she met Flamme and became her apprentice. They just weren't around long enough to do more than spout off about how the Demon King has decreed the elves need to be slaughtered (and the biggest question here is why,) and establish that demons tend to be arrogant when they think they have the upper hand.
The demon girl in the flashback when Frieren is explaining demon nature to Fern and Stark is really the one demon we see that has a good amount of screentime that we don't see behaving in a way that suggests she enjoys the pain she has caused. To me, it stands out because of that. This and the scene with Lugner and Linie when she asks what a father is do an excellent job of showing that there are things that are completely alien to how demons think.
Don't get me wrong. I think the demons in Frieren are interesting and well written. I'm also not so arrogant as to say that I could very well be wrong. I am willing to admit that I don't know everything either. That said, I don't think the demons in Frieren are as gray as everyone wants to believe.
And if it turns out that cats and orcas really are sadists, well, it'd hardly be the first time I was wrong about something.
My personal take with the demons is that they are a lot like frieren. Yes they fight to sustain be the deamons also don’t know what to do with their infinite time a lot like frieren. They both don’t show emotion, both under estimate newer opponents, and critically don’t understand humans. I think these deamons are a reflection of what frieren would have been like without her party and her teacher.
Absolutely wrong on a fundamental level. Frieren is an elf whom has emotions, but isn't very great at displaying them even all the way back when she first met Flamme. Demons cannot and I mean physically cannot comprehend emotions other then self preservation. The Demons lack humanity which is absolutely opposite of elves as they seem to have humanity, but live just as long. Flamme might have kick started Frieren's more generous and helpful nature, but she had to have such emotions to begin with to nurture. I don't view Frieren and Demons as two sides of the same coin, but two different coins that are roughly the same size.
@@Al_Greg I think what op means how alien elves and demons are effectively aliens to humans, but frieren is different because she actually makes an effort to connect with mortals.
Frieren lived peacefully in the central reason for a millennia as civilization grew around her, while Aura appears to have spent the better part of her 500 trying to annihilate the city that grew up under the barrier Flamme planted there.
@@Al_Greg yeah, Frieren has always shown emotion, just in subdued ways (which is common for mages in this series regardless of their species due to it assisting in mana control, as seen when we see demons and elves who are not mages and much more openly emotional). Frieren is also quite happy with her near-infinite time, her regrets have to do with not valuing the time of others enough.
I don't think a show or a story has the duty to codemn bad actions and condone good ones.
For the most part the story telling of mushoku tensei is neutral on morality and purely shows the story from rudeus's perspective.
The world does not bend over backwards to justify his actions or condemn them.
If you are going to claim that season 2 undermined some of the progress from season 1 then give examples because it might just very well be because of some of the skipped content.
Trust me when I say I am nowhere being satisfied with the adaptation.
mushoku largely leverages your existing morality in order to condemn his actions, it doesn't need to because it assumes the reader isn't as immoral as rudeus was. Beyond that, some of his later sleazy actions are explicitly forced on him by the world, in spite of him condemning the actions himself, and that's the point, the world he's in now doesn't make his self-improvement easy, it makes it harder, but it's another chance to try to be better regardless. Also, in the anime adaptation, especially season 1, it fumbles a bit with the framing of his actions, the world doesn't need to justify his actions for the framing of the scene to portray his actions as acceptable or humorous, it tends to focus on his deviant acts far too long while also portraying it as a joke, one or the other doesn't inherently cause this problem, but the 2 in combination does make the problem kind of unavoidable, I'm in full agreement with the anime adaptation not being satisfactory
@@tomykong2915 The novel delves more into the side characters' and supporting characters' POVs.
Eris's, Lilia's, Paul's , zenith's, and Roxy's pov.
in the anime they skip all of that.
the original web novel Rudeus in his past life is even more of a scumbag.
in the lightnovel he is well a failure, a bad son, but not really a terrible person.
since most of his flaws were him being too passive and not striving to improve and change his life for the better.
his perverted side is bad yes, but in his previous life he did not act upon that in the real world.
I do think that mushoku tensei is not a Redemption of a terrible individual becoming better. and rather giving a person who wasted his life because of his laziness and inability to face his problems head on and instead choosing the easy route, an opportunity to not repeat those mistakes and live seriously.
he has really bad thoughts like him considering "grooming Sylphy so that she becomes the perfect wife for him"
luckily that gets prevented by paul taking action. but that is not even the main focus of the story.
Norn, portrays the main focus of the story perfectly.
as Rudeus says, she managed to do what he failed to do in his previous life.
for Jobless Reincarnation, the anime adaptation does muddy the issue. There are 3 conflicts in Jobless, person vs self and person vs society are the 2 that are relevant here though, his new society tries to convince him his old ways were right, with his growth over time being an active effort in spite of his circumstances. Jobless is about redemption and the active efforts for self improvement necessary for that redemption to be meaningful, but in the anime? It does make light of a lot of the moments where bad things are happening, a lot more than it does at least in the manga (haven't read the LN, or WN, but have heard things), moments the manga at least took the effort to frame in the serious light it needed to be presented in, without being overbearing and just telling you "obviously this is bad" it does a better job balancing the 2 conflicts, it acknowledges "in this world, this is the norm, and in this world, the consequences of these actions are relatively limited" but not presenting them all sing songy either, a big part of the premise originally was assuming the reader has basic empathy and morals and leveraging those feelings in order to convey the point, we all know watching a video of an underage child naked when you're supposed to be at your parents funeral is a horrid thing to do and not something a good person would do, it didn't need to go out of its way to tell you that, it used that existing understanding to get across just how messed up Rudeus is as a person.
The anime adaptation is visually stunning and incredibly good in that department, but in regards to how it handles the story, it takes a story that unavoidably needs a lot of care put into the writing, and muddies the point with an over-reliance on conveying things more light heartedly to make it more palatable, while in the process making it lose a lot of the existing appeal to the story. I would highly recommend reading one of the other versions of the story given what you've said about it here
3:58 ok but this is amazing from a psychological perspective - essentially it's how psychopaths learn to mimic empathy, responses are picked based on their perceived benefit
It's hard to see the demons as acting strictly to preserve or reproduce when we have characters like Lugner and Aura that clearly derive some satisfaction from inflicting pain. Lugner wanted to get revenge for a surprise attack. Nature is never so reactive and malicious.
Did you ever saw a cat ? Real question
You do no know about, Orcas, Dolphines, Otters... those fuckers be evil af
Ravens destroy your entire argument a flock of Ravens can and will hold a grudge against an individual human
@@animeproblem1070 Octopus, too, have been known to hold grudges against certain keepers at aquariums and spray them or act up around them specifically.
Mate humans are animals and other animals hurt stuff for fun too like dolphins and other stuff not sure how you didn’t know this common sense but whatever
i am so sorry man, i really like your channel, your style of speech and your insights about deeper meanings in anime BUT i can't watch your videos anymore because i HAVE TO FORGET as much frieren as i can so that in a few months i'll be enjoying it more when i rewatch the show. Keep up the great work
I rewatch Frieren every month (1 ep a day) and have the entire time since it ended. I still enjoy it every watch through, and still am noticing new subtle details and most of all, have really come to love the subtle references in the 2 ED MVs.
Lol, I watched Frieren 3x in a row, and enjoyed it more after each rewatch.
had me in the first half ngl
Have fun with the rewatch
I see demons in Frieren as a metaphor for psychopaths. Like psychopaths, demons lack of empathy and guilt, and use the language for the purpose of lying and manipulating humans. So to consider if demons are evil, we should ask ourselves if we consider psychopaths as evil.
I shared the same conclusion about the parallels to psychopathy (ASPD). For a long time, I was unsure how to feel about the demons, and felt the same way "early" Frieren did (during her first heroes journey): wary observation. Once we reached the climax of that flashback arc (and later, the climax of the demon war), some things clicked for me:
•These demons ARE psychopaths, but psychopaths are not demons, because
•IRL people with ASPD have various motives that don't hinge on preying on other people to meet their goals. (Not saying some don't or won't prey on humans as A main directive or stepping stone, just that it's not always the core of their drive for each one.)
•Those demons were inherently dangerous BECAUSE of their subsistence of preying on humans/humanoids, and Frieren clearly understands this (which is why she has no qualms about exterminating them all on sight). There is no bargaining, there is no alternative, there is no understanding possible to grow. The demons only see other creatures as food sources, and they are not the type to argue with their food without it resulting in their full belly in the end.
•Those demons are in fact, not evil, but very animalistic in their drive for sustenance and self-preservation, to the point that demons with casually sell out their own kin if the pros outweigh enough of the cons. It's not so much a choice as a business transaction.
•As a result, this gave me a fresh perspective on both the fantasy and the irl dynamics on how these types operate (simplified as it may be). I still don't know how I feel about them, but at least I have a clearer picture about what to expect.
I would say they are evil in the sense that coexistence is not an option, why they are considered monsters and not a people. It's not shown at least thus far that demons can co exist long enough to build a web of logic that makes up for a lack of empathy, as i assume most high functioning psychopaths acquire. Even animals have a mix of logic and empathy. It's highly unlikely that they could learn the language and not puzzle out meaning from it over thousands of years. They just don't because they dont need to: because their pursuit of unbridled power and crushing everything with it hasn't been shown to fail enough to matter.
I liken it to the "the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference" that people will often quote. That's obviously dumb: if you put the two on a straight line, they are clear opposites. What people actually see is an exaggerated U, with love and hate being roughly equidistant or close in terms of passion and reasoning, and indifference being the farthest thing from either. It's fitting that in a polarized world, such a saying has gained traction.
that would be to acknowledge demons as a human being though at Psychopathy is a disorder in demons, the idea that they are nature, an evolved wild animal that only mimics humans to get a meal or such fits better than saying they simply hold no empathy, you dont say lions are psychopaths for eatings a gazelle
i see a demon as an animal in frieren
they have hairacy system, they know how to live around human, and they neither bad or good for human.
but the way they fix a problem is very different with human
basically if human doesnt have "humanity" in them
**Makima intensifies**
I can't wait until they animate the golden land/El dorado arc with Macht... you're gonna love it. Great video as always i love your frieren series and overall your analyzations of animes
Oh! Thank you for your insights and perspective on the demons of Frieren! You've helped me understand them! ❤
Alot of seemingly shallow critiques of Lolita make alot more sense when you look at the author's other works and see that sexualising minors is a running theme
I don't think Demons can simply be compared to wild animals - precisely because we have a story of a non-wild Demon in the show.
Relationships between humans and animals are things that happen - even wild animals. Humans raised by animals, animals that adapt to living with humans, the entire idea of pets.
If Demons really value self-preservation, then the demon girl adopted into the human village wouldn't've so eagerly attacked those who showed her kindness in vulnerability. Animals understand this. Maybe she'd have attacked someone else in the village, but not THE PERSON who gave her food, a roof, safety and spared her from death. It obviously can go a bit both ways, but it's important to realize that this is fictional, and thus what is shown isn't statistical or documental. It was shown to make a point - the point being that humans and demons CANNOT coexist, which is not true at all in nature. Nature isn't all nice, but wild (tamed) animals and humans CAN coexist, they have for millennia.
Because of this, I find the comparison of Demons to wild animals to be misguided. Because if that was the comparison, there would be more about demons in human society that'd be adapted to it and not be acting manipulatively. Animals and humans coexist. If humans and demons cannot coexist, there is no longer a blank value judgement applied to it - demons MUST be exterminated/segregated.
There is a severe flaw to your theory though and that is that some animals dont recognize people as their caretakers even if they have experience of them giving them positive experiences. Chimps are a prime example of this as they’ve been known to horribly maul their owners and other people despite the fact that they have been raised by humans. Same with Hippos who have killed their caretakers including one story where they killed their caretaker in the same rover they rescued it from.
Wild animals are wild animals and while we can rationalize some of their behaviors, it’s still mostly theory that has been disproven time and time again. We could argue that nature is more about preserving a species but in reality, nature is the course of action that furthers an animals species in whatever way possible regardless if its the most efficient or not. This is how we get animals whose biology can kill themselves, animals with seemingly psychotic tendencies, animals that seemingly have no explanation for their behavior because even scientists has a tendency to humanize an animal and rationalize their behavior in human moral which is completely unknown to animals.
Demons in this case only survived because their biology allowed them to. They kill humans because its convenient and because they can. They hurt people because they can. They arent inherently evil for doing it because their natural guide as instinctual is mostly something humans rationalize them for. Their moral compass doesnt follow a humans and so cant be judged by human morality. It just is.
It’s more of a example of Civilized and uncivilized, yes we may adopt things of the uncivilized since it’s the reason we have domesticated wolves to become dogs but that’s the point. They must heel to our side to be accepted, to become civilized. Demons on the other hand try to do what humans do to animals which is to domesticate them, and so they learn language to trick humans into thinking they’re willing to become civilized, and at the right moment they strike and attempt to turn the tables on humans.
@@seraphywang4638 yeah, we get animals with psychotic tendancies, bodies that can suddenly try to kill themselves, and no real explanation for their behavior, sounds like humans in a nutshell. other species of animals' behaviors are often more rational than most humans, that's the difference, and that's why we fail to understand them when we try and humanize them, but the processes surrounding those animals aren't rational, they just happen, and that rationality applies in response to that environment, and doesn't really work when they attempt to understand human behaviors, the behaviors you're talking about are unnecessary risks as far as most animals are concerned, another animal will generally only be doing things in its own best interest, so if it is giving me something, it's trying to get me, my mate, or my offspring, or all of the above, that's the thing
@@seraphywang4638 Adding to your example with what I'm familiar with: alligators can and will snap at and attack familiar handlers who have been with them for YEARS and who they understand on some level are bringing them food, if the handler shows enough inattention for the 'gator to notice it.
Some gators seem to be lazier than others about their reactivity threshold and the effort to take a shot at a bite, but even decade-long handlers recognize their alligator partner remains a danger even if there's some form of affection.
Nah man you have your facts mixed. Wild Animals *do not* generally recognize and refrain from antagonizing people they see as caretakers. The opposite actually, the most common thing on the area is to hear about rescuers who were killed by the animals they rescued. Its all fun and games to see the videos of Rescuers playing with Lions who they saved as cubs, but the ones you don't see outnumber them A LOT
I absolutely love every single video in this series you make, not only because it’s about a beautiful show, but because you help inspire me to write and give me ideas. For example, I’m tossing around the idea of a character who realizes they’ve been a part of a genocide, and have to grapple with that. Sort of like ender’s game or something.
loving the frieren series. i also like mushoku tensei. i don't think the path to redemption is linear. i don't think rewarding the protag through the forgiveness of other characters undermines the story. i also don't think condemning every negative trait is interesting because applying modern society sensibilities to a fantasy setting is just a pretty backdrop to preach to the audience about how to feel. i enjoy mushoku tensei because the world building, interactions, and nature of the characters put us at odds with the cast sometimes. i don't think frieren covers any of the same ground in that regard so those feelings aren't mutually exclusive. they're both top tier in my book but for completely different reasons.
hmm, I think that's an interesting perspective. thanks for sharing
I agree with you entirely, though I also can see where Pey was lost by the story. In my circle of friends, there are 2 of us who love Mushoku Tensei (though I prefer the LNs to the anime) and 3 of us who couldn't stand Rudy enough that they dropped it. I am a fantasy fanatic, and at this point in my life I prefer complex world building and complex characters. I have Mushoku Tensei, Frieren, Re Zero, Reign of the Seven Spellblades and Ascendence of a Bookworm, not wth my manga and other LNs, but with my Western Fantasy Series (Brandon Sanderson, Robert Jordan, Tolkein, Terry Brooks, Jim Butcher). This is because, within their scopes, their worldbuilding is more akin to the epic fantasy series I grew up on rather than the generic isekai/fantasy LNs I went through a phase of reading.
Rudeus's story is not a generic isekai protagonist becomes an angel. Its a more realistic story about what would happen if one of the lowest scum were given another chance. Redemption, improvement are possible, since they know what happened in previous life and would want to avoid/change it. But nowhere near guaranteed. So are relapses and contradictions. Just like real life. To expect the story to condemn him is like expecting fate to condemn evil doers irl. Not gonna happen. Stop viewing media through the lens of your personal morality or expectations.
@@logikx1325 did those 3 ever give the manga or LN a shot? at least the manga I find does a better job with the framing of the issues than the anime. Beyond that, just to avoid posting multiple replies without reason, I'll reply to OP here too:
jobless as a story does condemn the actions of Rudeus though, he himself does too, the world around him doesn't, and the story does a lot of what it's aiming to do by assuming you already understand that what he's doing is wrong, and then leveraging that understanding as it goes. It isn't a story about how these things are wrong, and it doesn't need to go out of its way to portray these things as wrong, it just needs to not portray these things as fine and lighthearted comedy, those aren't the same thing, and the anime often does portray rudeus's issues as a lot more lighthearted than they really are
I see a Pey video in my sub feed, I watch.
2:35 that's actually one of those myth ones like lemmings running off cliffs. They only do that when starved but otherwise the same rules as any other insect applies: feed the mate or become the food.
I like how you ended this
That space of silence
To reflect
I don't usually comment but I didn't think that I'd find someone else thought the same with Mushoku Tensei
I was expecting a redemption story, a flawed character learning to better ones self (as the original name sorta implies, "I'll really try in another world")
But was left feeling disappointed in the end when that isn't the main focus. I'll still think it's good but I yearn for more of the redemption that was promised (I'll still stick it out)
Thank you Pey, for taking at nuanced look at the Demon topic, as divisive as it is.
I've watched this video series since the second one and I can't wait for the rest of the video series.
I am rooting for you!
While I am not a fan of Tensei either I know some stuff about the original web novel and let me say that Rudeus we have now or form the light novel version is an actual improvement. To tdlr it the web novel rudeus was creeping on his niece and let’s just say that it lead to his brother beating him to death. Light novel rudeus iirc had a different beginning.
@@2265Hello thanks for sharing!
I didn’t not know that
Let’s see the direction the anime adaption will take us
@@bleato2 yh but as for the current version and from my talk with fans of the series Rudeus will remain a sleaze just more contained. And he will improve and suffer the consequences of his actions but not in the way you would hope.
I was also pleasantly surprised to find someone who had the same view as I about mushoku tensei. I think many of us had came in with that view due to a certain popular anime CZcamsr haha
Redemption generally isn't something that happens overnight or even in a single/couple anime arcs/seasons. MT is taking its time and doing it right which probably feels wrong to people who haven't ever seen it done properly before.
I think as well, that a lot of whether demons could be considered 'Evil' in Frieren comes down to the difference between Amorality and Immorality.
I'd argue that the Demons are inherently Amoral - morality has no influence on their actions towards humans, just as a Wolf's actions towards deer is not influenced by morality. For both Demons and Wolves, it is their nature to prey upon them.
This was very well written and helped me organize and better understand some of the thoughts and feelings that I already held prior to this. I'm going to post my extra thoughts after I talk about the video so feel free to not read the second paragraph if you don't want a tangent on the strange thoughts that the video helped me put into words. As far as the bit about Mushouku Tensei goes, I also feel like the show hasn't been as great in the second season because Rudeus is no longer the bad guy that you're rooting for to get better, he's no longer the one that we're expected to see fault in. He's now the one that we're expected to believe is showing others the fault in themselves. That "vs. Society" as you put it. I still think that there have been some moments of noticeable character growth, but they have been much fewer and farther between because it is less introspective now. And as far as the demons of Frieren go, that moment that Frieren says "aren't you?" immediately stuck with me when I first saw it because it told me exactly what I needed to know about the demons of that world from the person that best understood them; they are wild animals that eat people. Frieren does not speak in superfluous ways, doesn't throw around metaphors or think irrationally. She was aware of a clear and present danger that others did not understand.
To me, the demons in Frieren remind me of psychopaths. I've always found it odd that people will call psychopaths "not human" and follow that up with judging them as evil. I also think that they are not human but as a result, have always had a difficult time seeing them as evil. They are almost always dangerous, sure. But bears aren't evil. People just see psychopaths and say that they are not human to vilify them instead of understanding that they have had the things most people consider the foundations of being human stripped from them and, as a result, are actually a different animal. They are dangerous and should be treated as such, but they are not evil. They are just like the demons in Frieren. The human face and language only hold value to them as tools. Their two driving forces are similar; to find enjoyment for themselves at any cost (sometimes by metaphorically or even literally eating people) and to preserve themselves. They are scary, but so are tornadoes and tsunamis. Bears and sharks. They just look more like us.
One of the reasons I think Avatar is so good case study is it uses all four of the conflict types in a very effective way.
This video is a prime example of Overthinking. When you overthink about the term evil itself the whole picture gets convoluted as a result.
And if you don't think about it at all, you fall into depravity yourself. Perpetrating heinous things and yet believing yourself to be among the righteous.
@@DreamersOfReality Not thinking at all is stupid.
The last part is important. People keep acting like framing isn't a thing. This is similar to my beef to redemption arcs where characters story doesn't act like what the person did was wrong in the first place. There are a lot of villains that felt like they were just sorry that their plans didn't work.
Here's a pretty big wrench to throw into this theory. The thing is, demons in Frieren don't need to eat humans, they just want to. More so, this desire to kill overpowers logical reasoning to the point of running contrary to self preservation. That is why they are considered monsters.
Monsters as a whole aren't natural creatures, that's why they crumble into dust upon death. In most medieval manga monsters as a trope or not a part of nature but instead a result of magic and thus aren't truly alive, providing protagonists easy targets to kill. Frieren does make it more complicated by making them intelligent with ability to reason, but at the same time it doesn't step away from them being monsters.
Demons just aren't actual people, you can think of them like a artificial intelligence with purpose of killing humans. Their ancestor species where just imitating sounds to lure people, now gaining logic and intelligence after evolving, yet the purpose stays the same. Although, in later chapters we can see that this process is still going, and some demons begin to understand humanity better. Which only makes them more dangerous.
5:34 no they aren’t. If you are the one hearing the dog whistle, you might be the dog.
Anytime someone talks about dog whistles you really have to ask your self if they are just projecting their own perceptions about what ever their claiming is a dog whistle. Because if your the only one that hears the dog whistle then maybe YOU are the dog.
Exactly. 🙄
I think that was at the point of the whole deal with Himmel and the demon girl as well, to show that demons aren't an analogue for humans in any way, they are wholly different creatures. The demon girl couldn't fundamentally understand what it had done wrong no matter how hard she tried, because it's just thinking about hunting, and she probably saw the humans of the town like dolls at that point, if she got rid of another one then they could be happy cause everything would be back in the structure it thought was there.
Wait a tic. Does this mean the demons in Frieren could've completely sidestepped getting into conflict with humans as a species by simply selling their services as mercenaries and snacking on their clients' enemies while on the job?
This reminds me so much of every frame!
My only disagreement, is some demons are shown to take pleasure in complex misery of humans. In a way, cats could also be thought of as evil I guess...
Although those demons could be the exception not the norm.
What song is used around 3:30?
Impression - Ever So Blue
I've been enjoying your Frieren series, but condemming Rudeus earned you a sub! Another type of conflict that is especially powerful in Isekai stories is that of Culture vs. Culture. Ascendance of a Bookworm does this really well because the mc has to endure so many culture shifts throughout the series (and even more in the books!), and choosing which parts should be dropped for the sake of survival and which are too important to let go (for instance, books) is a major source of conflict throughout the entire series and the themes of holding onto the most important thing is an amazing wealth of comedy, action, and even pain when lost. It isn't just that the story is about the importance of books, it is about perspective on the importance of books and how the story handles that (minor spoiler alert, but the civil war in the past that gave the mc a chance to survive would not have been nearly as bad had the rulers read their books).
I can't condone Rudeus's story even though many of his faults get fixed later on through growth because the story eventually gives up on condemning some of his worst habits. It is awkward to have a character do a bunch of stupid things and fix that behavior, but it is an entirely different thing to only solve most of them. Until the rest are fixed (especially his perversion), he can only be considered an anti-hero. If the theme of the show is redemption, he should be framed as a struggling protagonist.
All demons are evil incarnate, it's their nature. Except for Arueshalae, she is pure love.
brilliant video essay!
So Parasyte is also pretty close to this kind of conflict.
Demon in Demon Slayer: Just a disease mutated into something else
Demon in Mushoku ga Tensei: Just like human just more eccentric
Demon in Frieren: A force of nature and simply nature's creation
Demon in Berserk: 💀
Eldritch monsters that were once human, but given unholy power by the call of a malevolent deity.
Something I noticed when watching Frieren is how the way they use language is strikingly similar to how certain things use it in real life. I say "things" because they aren't people, but rather "AI", or more accurately Language Models. Modern text-based generative AIs like Chat-GPT often get criticized for giving false information, "hallucinating", or "lying", but the truth is that they don't actually understand what they're saying any more than the demons in Frieren do. They simply say the words that they believe they're expected to say, because that's the behavior that was rewarded during training. It's a different sort of self-preservation, but could still in a sense be boiled to a similar idea.
I think there are a couple issues at hand. What does it mean to be evil. And what are the risks of essentializing some nature to all demons? I think it is probably true that by nature demons are generally amoral in a human context. But I don't think it is right to essentialize demons as no evil but amoral. I think there's plenty to suggest that at least some would be considered evil in as much we colloquially understand evil. While most of us would reasonably not consider a bear that attacks people as evil, Frieren's demons have more capacity to understand and enjoy the harm they inflict. There are absolutely signs that some demons gain a remorseless satisfaction from their victory over their intelligent prey. If evil means anything at all, what more does it require?
MT isn't trying to tell you that on the path to a better life you will never fail and that you'll always know what the right thing to do is sometimes you're gonna fall and fall hard and sometimes you'll regret every choice you made during a period in your life that doesn't mean that you're not allowed to pick yourself back up and continue growing into a better person
Rudy was never going to become a Paragon of any virtues and that's never been his goal his goal as he stated was to live a better life than his past to not give up on living and be like the walking corpse he was in his first life his goal is to live and be better than he was and that means he's going to do somethings evil somethings immoral and a lot of things wrong on his path to do the right thing and live a life that was worth it that bettered the world in some way
In some works, demonkins are just another species that live alongside others like elves, dwarves, fairies, dragonkin or mermaids, and humans are the ones that make enemies with the rest, perhaps especially the demonkins.
In another, demonkins are just evolved humans with innate high magic abilities.
In another, demonkins are otherworldly and inhuman species that invade human worlds for the fresher territories and new food sources.
Anyone can be labelled anything, as long as they oppose humans as the core of the story/POV. Any antagonist type can be called demonic or evil just because they're fighting a human MC. The point to all this is that it's the humans who must learn to share and love others as their equal.
Oops, clicked on this before watching the previous. Sorry to leave in first 30 sec, I’ll be back.
It feels so good to hear someone feel the same way about Mushoku-tensei. When I came across a scene where a 40ish year old man approached a small girl inappropriately I was appalled. Sure he felt like he was a young child too, but he's not. I stopped watching immediately. I couldn't possibly enjoy a show that in my opinion included the big CP although only a little. I thought the show would fade away with such a scene being included, but videos about it still pops up in my recommended feed like no body else sees the problem here! It just makes me sad.
Hello Pey, I've been watching your videos for a while now and wondered if you were in the middle of writing anything yourself? I'm trying to get some editing work under my belt and would love to help someone that I can connect with through similar media, thoughts and passion.
Loving your videos, keep it up.
I like your videos, feels like expanding my mind about the subject. The pace is good to calm myself 😊
No demon can be more evil than my ex.
I actually wasn't able to finish Freiren. I remember vaguely thinking that the concept presented in the Demon arc was interesting, but because there was something hollow about Freiren's overall execution I wasn't able to think on it further. Ironically, and at least for me personally, I think it's the characters and relationships not having enough individuality or layers of complexity, even though the story does kind of try to. Many introduced narrative elements also didn't seem to take as full advantage of them as they should have when presented, so it eventually lost me. I don't think I'll pick it up again, but listening to your thoughts about monsters acting out of survival and not Malice really fascinated me. I think I would of loved to have explored that idea so much, because something about a creature that walks and talks like a human but can't feel or doesn't do things out of emotions... that's actually more terrifying to me. And I can see the potential in it becoming a point of moral scrutiny for a human protagonist, when their foe is hated but doesn't kill out of hate. Anyways great video! It was a really interesting perspective for both animes mentioned
When did you drop it, and what was the straw?
@@jaideepshekhar4621 I think it was the episode we last see Sein in, so episode 17 I think? I didn't drop it because I hated the anime actually. There were things to love, and I wanted to love it. But I realized that it didn't matter if I kept holding out; the anime wasn't going to change, and I accepted it for what it was. I saw that it was determined to maintain a calm atmosphere without letting the characters experience intense motions when they needed to, nor allow the story to dive deeper into the characters and relationships or the world they encountered at large. And it's not that it doesn't try exactly, but the attempts themselves are lackluster and dull, not nearly fleshed out enough to feel real or substantial. That caused the world building and antagonists to feel dull for me, even if the ideas presented had potential. That really hurts a fantasy adventure setting too imo. Fern & Stark feel pretty weak as characters despite having impactful backstories (Fern in particular is not impacted by it enough). I couldn't see what drove them now. Why do they care & why should I? What inner goal is so strong it justifies the decade-long journey ahead? Freiren is often passively deciding things and in tern my interest in her is passive, but I think her relationship with Himmel, Heiter & Iron helps bring a layer of nuance and interest that wouldn't otherwise be there. Tbh I found myself wanting to watch Freiren's memories and her relationship with that cast a lot more than the present one. Sein, although also lackluster, was the only one with the most concrete motivation, thr most understandable reason for leaving home and joining them, so after he split off from the party, well... I decided it was time to split off as well
This is a beautiful essay
Those demons are quite interesting indeed.
El dorado arc will change lives when it's animated.
I also like that demons in this anime just don't show any empathy. That's the main difference between them and humans (/elves/dwarves etc.) and I think this makes for really good antagonists. They also can't be redeemed, because they just don't have the ability to feel empathy for another creature, even other demons. That's just how they are in this world and the fact that the pure lack of empathy is antagonized is just an excelent choice for a story in my opinion.
Excellent video 👏
I wouldn't say the moral of the story in S2 were that his "bad actions" were rewarded. The message portrayed was Rudeus' relationship and judgement of his father that kept the two alienated from one another. Culminating in Rudeus' father sacrificing himself to save his son and Rudeus' realizing that he's not better of a man than his father. Which broke the disgust Rudeus had about his father's adultery. Even if it was post mortem.
Have you watched Made In abyss? I believe you would eat it up, and I would enjoy your commentary on it.
Especially considering what he said in the later half of this video.
The first season was masterful. The second season was basically underaged, furry, scat, torture porn with delusions of grandeur.
@@drksideofthewal I like the story but yeah, the author does not hide their fetishes well.
It is kind of a common trope now to have the demons not be evil
The difference lies in that most shows where demons aren't evil, it turns to them being just a human with a slightly different appereance. As such, while they might be a conflict between them and humans, it's something that boils down to prejudice an intolerante, and can be solved through political negotiations and a chance in perspectiva, leading to a change in the social paradigm and the possibility for coexistence.
But these demons aren't like that. Demons are different from humans from a psichiatric point of view. The difference in behaviour is not learned, but developed from different brain structure.
They are very specialized predators, who prey in humanoid beings, such as humans, elves and dwarves, taking adventage of their social lifestyle. They seems to be naturally inteligent and much stronger than any humanoid, thanks to a innate high talent for magic, and that allowed them to prey on the weaker species that rely on colaboration and empathy.
As such, their undertading of lenguage is sophisticated, as they have the intelect to undertand complex concepts and words and can develop advanced ideas and properly express them. But as previously started, their brains aren't the same as humans. This makes them able to acknowledge the existance of abstract concepts like love, empathy and frienship and understand that their prey function based on these, but demons themselves cannot properly feel such emotions.
It's probably similar to sight. It's already known that some animals can see light outside the sprectrum visible to humans. But since we are human, and our brain is meant to see the color of the light waves we perceive, we cannot fathom what color comes from those different lightwaves.
this kind of thing comes up in fromsofts games alot
Even when the Demongirl got killed, her Motivation to kill her Foster Father seemned just to be based on Missunderstandings, and her trying to increase acceptance by replacing a Kid she ate. Neighter selfeless, nor evil.
This is one of the coolest videos I've seen about Frieren, and I'm damn near close to watching all of them. You've brought new weight to lines that I really took for granted, highlighting "Well aren't you?" specifically. I know I'm going to come back to this video in a week and have something else to think about. I appreciate the way you highlighted Mushuko as well, it was frustrating seeing the show was loved by so many people, but everything seemed to eventually boil down to "The worst person you know is challenged by almost nothing and grows very little", and you really put to words so much of what I was struggling with trying to handle the dissonance between season 1 to season 2.
The 'oh he's evil with a tragic backstory, so you should sympathize with the villain' troupe is just so cringe in my opinion.
We should bring back evil for the sake of being evil troupe back
I think some people might find it curious saying that demons aren't evil, since it's actually a common trope nowadays. But I believe there's a difference between the usual take and Frieren's.
The difference lies in that most shows where demons aren't evil, it turns to them being just a human with a slightly different appereance. As such, while they might be a conflict between them and humans, it's something that boils down to prejudice an intolerante, and can be solved through political negotiations and a chance in perspectiva, leading to a change in the social paradigm and the possibility for coexistence.
But these demons aren't like that. Demons are different from humans from a psichiatric point of view. The difference in behaviour is not learned, but developed from different brain structure.
They are very specialized predators, who prey in humanoid beings, such as humans, elves and dwarves, taking adventage of their social lifestyle. They seems to be naturally inteligent and much stronger than any humanoid, thanks to a innate high talent for magic, and that allowed them to prey on the weaker species that rely on colaboration and empathy.
As such, their undertading of lenguage is sophisticated, as they have the intelect to undertand complex concepts and words and can develop advanced ideas and properly express them. But as previously started, their brains aren't the same as humans. This makes them able to acknowledge the existance of abstract concepts like love, empathy and frienship and understand that their prey function based on these, but demons themselves cannot properly feel such emotions.
It's probably similar to sight. It's already known that some animals can see light outside the sprectrum visible to humans. But since we are human, and our brain is meant to see the color of the light waves we perceive, we cannot fathom what color comes from those different lightwaves.
Demons in Frieren are kind of like mosquitos, it's not true maliciousness, but yeah I don't want those things near me.
"What if demons didn't have to be evil?"
You're a few decades late to be asking that question. Anime has had a glut of nuanced or misunderstood demons for ages
The demons ABSOLUTELY act with malice, what are you talking about?
Lugner and Aura especially seen to revel in causing suffering
they dont just read the manga
Oh, that's not suffering. They can't even successfully interrogate 1 guy. When I play as a dark side Imperial agent in SWTOR, I make those 2 look like schoolyard pranksters, which they are.
With Mushoku Tensei being recommended to others, I often think; "It is hard to enjoy for those who judge based on what is shown." - I want to recommend it for the redemption, but I realised it is not redemption, but Humility and the emotional turmoil and development that comes thereafter.
Both Frierek and Mushoku are shows I deeply enjoy, with Frieren having very philosophical ideas given to me - that is how I take it in. To be thankful and joyful for what you have and what you can do to appreciate that is. Mushoku Tensei feels like a journey to understand a perspective, rather than accepting it as anything we'd have. To be emotionally into the show, I have felt very connected to how it builds the main character, Rudeus. I don't think he becomes redeemed, but rather humbled, while also having his flaws during his journey. To find his way from his trauma and past life and grow upon it. Perhaps it is growth, humility that I truly look at it for. I want to see what happens and I want him to always be better and beat his past somehow, being close to what can make him a better person, rather than being The Best person.
Frieren is already at the end of her initial quest of journey, with her next one being quite the following interest to her growth as a character. Despite reaching the end, she is still able to learn and grow along the world that comes thereafter.
Sorry for rambling.
Your video game me a different perspective of the demons, whom I simply saw as chaotic and ruthless, while also unable to learn and manage life like others. Seeing them as animals wasn't really my thought and it feels true to see them as such. Yet it makes me "wish" they could learn, but sadly they're lost and often depicted as evil from our moral ethics as living beings.
Mushoku Tensei is about redemption, just a different concept of redemption than most people have in their heads, it's a personal search of redemption, improvement, even if that improvement isn't to perfection, it's the kind of redemption I've always resonated more with to begin with, but beyond that, the anime adaptation muddies that a lot
Yeah i’m ngl i could NOT watch past episode 1 on mushoku tensei, i felt physically ill when i started ep 2
I hear people saying its good, but i just CANNOT consume that media
Calling them demons in all of these shows is mostly the result of a translation error (that goes both ways) that has evolved over the years. I say this as an anime fan. The cultural context matters, here. If you go back a century, before the cultural exchange between the US and Japan, you'd struggle to get anyone in the west to recognize what the Japanese call 'demons' in these shows as demons. They're really more like Fey spirits. Dangerous, sexy, mercurial, and often misunderstood.
Demons, fey, and spirits are fairly synonymous words. In Greek, the work for spirit is daimōn, and the term doesn’t presuppose the morality of the spirit. The word for a good demon/spirit is agathosdaimōn and a kakodaimōn is an evil spirit.
@@Brian-qt6su Right, but while western culture definitely traces roots to Greece, I think we have more in common with the modern Japanese than we do with ancient Greece.
I would like to know your opinion about Shape of Voice
I think, in stories..bad things happening just to happen doesn't get explored often in a tasteful and proper manner.
I need to watch this show asap
Very cool video!
Your conclusion is 1000% correct and is further stated in the manga in the part we're going to get in the next season.
It's pretty depressing reading some of the comments that completely miss the point and think the whole thing is just to represent psychopaths ? (Why would even be the point in a story? )
MT success is the proof we live in a society where brainrot is the standard to the point i was really surprised that Frieren was so successful, this gives me a little hope that people will start thinking a little more when they watch something .
Witch hat atelier is also going to be a masterful story about morality, finger crossed people will understand the theme.
I think you need to give a definition of what your version of evil is. Providing this may help you and listeners understand why there may be disagreements between you and others on when something should be designate as evil. For example there are spiritual groups that say "demons" (are spiritual entities that bring or cause evil.) Thus anything with a physical body cannot be inherently evil; Only acted upon or influenced by evil.
There are also those that believe the existence of evil is dependent on the existence of complex thought and understanding of morals. For example anything that does not have thought (like a rock) and anything that does not have complex thought for the understanding of morals (like an animal) cannot be evil. Such things can however be described as cruel or uncaring.
Your view on Demons is interesting though I do feel that you are missing a little something in your analysis. Demons do not NEED to feed on humans to sustain themselves, they like to because it demonstrates their superiority. They actively seek it out too. A bear in the woods does not target you, nor does a tiger in the jungle, even a shark in the ocean has no specific desire to kill and eat you just to prove they are the predator and you the prey. There is will in what the demons do. Aura does not need to destroy Graf Granat's town. There is no self preservation benefit (nor harm either from her perspective). She just needs to prove she is superior. Nature acts indiscriminately to eat or in self defense, demons do not. That is just my analysis however. I believe they fit more into the unknown category. A species other humanoids can't get on the same page with. Selfish and mostly solitary but still with a hierarchy and society and morals all their own. They are as much nature as an enemy faction of cannibals that finds leadership in the old axiom that might makes right.
I kind of wish you elaborated on your critique of mushoku tensei more. I'm guessing it was the scene with the beast girls in the school that put you off, but I'm not sure because you were really vague in how you talked about it.
But even that scene wasn't showing what Rudy did as good. He did it in a scientific way and if I remember correctly, the girls did something bad prior to be punished. I'm not saying what Rudy did was a proper punishment or anything, but that the scene gives me enough to not make it as bad as it can easily be seen as.
@upg5147 I don't personally have a problem with it. It was just by best guess for what he was getting at.
@@danielfredel4193 Yeah, there are a handful of scenes that could be the issue depending on who you are talking to...
Iitc, they destroyed his prized Roxy statue while bullying, so Rudeus captured them. The boob thing was for checking his ed.
Thanks!
Long story short, Frieren learned a long time ago not to choose the bear, because not only do they eat your face, in this universe the bears also pretend to be kittens.
While I don't know if you'd be interested, there's a game series that I think you're style of analysis would be perfect for. It's called the legacy of kain, and it dives into the ideas of fate, redemption, and the idea of morality through perspective. Unfortunately the last game in the series came out in 2006.
In the manga heterogenia linguistico, the main character is learning the languages of different species of monsters to better understand them. When he asks one of them if they hate humans for subjugating them, they don’t understand the question. He realizes that’s because they view humans as a force of nature. You don’t hate tornadoes or earthquakes, you just fear them. And I think that relates pretty closely to how you describe the demons in frieren
I found that the lack of morality within the demons in this show IS what made them evil. they aren't evil because they want to be harmful, they act in reprehensible or what we consider evil ways because of their lack of understanding or concept thereof.
I think S2 of Mushoku Tensei really show how Rudy adapt his new world socially.
Back in S1 he take it like a game or simulation, but later on he must be an actual adult with responsibility in his new world.
Its like nature vs nurture, where his previous life is his nature and his new life is the nurture.
Both have good and bad things.
You should have given examples for your argument about MT. Because it's hard to follow your argument when you talk about season 2 w/o showing any evidence. Which I know the topic is about sexuality so it's harder to show. But I remember season 2 (cour 1) being much less sexually hyper than season 1. So it felt weird hearing your take.
I agree with your argument, but among the monster films you mentioned Alien, I would argue that Alien is the same situation as the demons of Frieren, at least in the first film. There was no underlying malice it was just an apex predator doing what predators do with prey hunt and kill. Or depending on how you look at other species on earth do orca have malice when they "play" with shark and seals for blood sport and not out of desire for food? Or are they not developed enough and therefore is it just nature and a way to hone those instincts and methodologies for hunting. Again I argue that the Xenomorphs are just as much nature as the demons.
Nice video, I just want to point out 1 thing. Darwin survival of the fittest works off of Darwin's view of fitness which based on having kids which is not a topic that Frieren's Demons cover. Now the demon's actions and mindset would generally imply that they would have many offsprings, in nature it is often but not always seen that if a species has few offsprings then they are more geared to take care of those children where if they have many offspring they tend not to be, note this is based on per birthing cycles. Those animals that break this are mostly those that have lots of offsprings but still take care of them because of how the animal works, such as ants.
Phrases like survival of the fittest and blood is thinker then water have had their meaning changed and distorted by people using them incorrectly.
Rudys journey is about self improvement. By the end of season 2 we have was different person than I'm season 1