Is The Hybrid 911 A 'Disappointment'? [S7, E2]
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- čas přidán 12. 07. 2024
- This week Tony and I discuss:
0:00 - Intro
0:22 - Sam’s roadtrip in the Challenge Stradale
7:38 - The Porsche 911 992.2
16:12 - The new PDK gearbox
25:48 - What will future generations of 911s look like?
30:42 - Is the 992.2 too muted?
33:28 - Sam’s new Panamera reveal
37:29 - Are Hybrids leading the way?
53:40 - What does Tony have planned this week?
57:03 - Outro
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You can follow Tony here;
/ tonygravelwoodcarsales
www.gravelwood.co.uk/
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Thanks for watching. If you enjoy Behind The Glass you may also enjoy my main channel, SeenThroughGlass, or similar channels like LTACY Salomondrin, Shmee150, Supercars Of London, MrJWW, Seb Delanney and Motor Trend. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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" I think its a ZF box" hilarious never change Tony
Sam: "Hosted by two rather uninformed enthusiasts"
Tony: "No, no, no, no, no"
Just messing, love them both 😉
You know that a Porsche engineer listening to this did the famous _"Nein Nein Nein Nein Nein!"_ 🤣
Porsche haven’t done a tiptronic 911 since the 997.1! Tony even had a 992 Carrera S for a short time!
Well PDK and PDK 2 were and are manufactured and delivered to porsche by ZF. Its just not a ZF 8HP like in the Cayenne. (PDK are all 7speed variants PDK 2 are the 8speed boxes in the 991.2, 992 and in the MSB cars)
I believe he fucks with us on purpose
That the 992.2 is a hybrid is no negative for me. The negative is the disappearance of the analog rev counter and that there is no longer an ignition on the driver’s side, it now is a starter button (the horror). Those typical 911 details are gradually fading out.
Can confirm I have been watching since roughly when Sam crashed the 4C into the van.
Same / when he had that Audi before it
The EV you’re describing was built some time ago - it’s the BMW i3 Range Extender.
I’ve done 65,000 miles in mine, easily 99% of that pure EV and then when I’ve had to do a drive longer than my 65 mile daily commute I’ve got the Range Extender.
22:47 f1 power units definitely use that tech, it’s one of the many functions of then MGU-H
New 992.2 lovely. I keep playing around on the configurator with colours and finishes. Gorgeous.
They must get MILLIONS of impressions on that web page 😂
Great video again from Tony's Car Sales Dealership & enjoy your trip Sam & all goes well for your Ferrari too.
The Porsche T Hybrid system is like spring drive on a Grand Seiko watch.
Good analogy.
OMG! How more confused can you get after listening to Tony about the 911 Tech. Here a short list to counter that:
1. It is a NORMAL Hybrid - like we know it for most of the time. Hybrids that can be charged came later to the market. That is why they are called "Plug In Hybrids" and not just Hybrids. Standard Hybrids like the Prius (until the latest model) used the same concept. There was no charging at all.
2. Beside the extra electric motor on board like the normal Hybrids it has also a Turbo that has a electric motor in it to spool it up immediately. Same concept like the F1 currently uses. The Exhaust-Gases can also generate electricity that can be stored in the battery or can be used directly. So there is a extra functionality here.
3. The 2kwH Battery for the Hybrid System sits in the front, The normal Battery now in the rear. So if there is a Problem with the Hybrid Battery it can be exchanged quite easily and quick,
3. NO 911 has a ZF 8 Speed automatic. It is again a new Version of the PDK Box.
A 2kwh battery will not be expensive to replace either Tony 😂😂😂
My mountain bike has a 420kwh battery and that isn’t a prohibitive cost to replace
(Made by Fazua, owned by Porsche)
ZF manufactures the PDK gearbox to Porsche's specifications. It IS a ZF.
Need to remember that Toyota have been the leaders in Hybrid’s. The first Prius was released back in 1999, they started it all. 👏🏻
True. However, I don’t think they ever put an electric motor on a turbocharger, or have any performance hybrids in their portfolio. The first two door sporty hybrid, other than the “holy trinity”, was probably the BWM i8. Leave it to the Germans to pioneer the performance hybrid.
Love the podcast guys! You’re a right laugh. Keep going!
992.2 GTS is a huge jump, you’re getting 992.1 Turbo performance with no turbo lag. I don’t think the Carrera S will be the hybrid unit, they have already fitted larger turbos to the base Carrera engine, which leaves room for a souped up non-hybrid Carrera S.
In terms of the GT3, Car magazine in March stated that the first 1500 992.2 GT3 will be 4.0 N/A, but after that it will switch to 3.6 n/a hybrid of the same output as the 4.0
That sounds like a great way to get people panicking that they're gonna miss out on the next Mezger RS
What hacks me off is that we're all being press ganged into carbon neutral transport but yet a container ship uses 250 tonnes of diesel a day, it's madness
Also the 1,300 take-offs and landings each day at Heathrow! A lot of which fly low over London!
You really don’t understand the reasons why? Or you’re just angry?
Profits to be made from consumers.
The scale of the challenge and how easy it is to pay for (by using millions of consumers)
What’s easier, hybrid/neutral small cars or a container ship?
That doesn’t mean I want hybrids or EVs just explaining why it’s on us and not shipping
The cobalt industry is green green green boys
You have to start somewhere. The whole world needs to stop using fossil fuels as much as possible because it’s causing climate change. We can’t carry on as we are
I hope to see your Challenge Stradale passing by my hometown Grenoble 👋 very nice roads just next to here !
18:41 leaving space for a AWD system on the Carrera 4 GTS
Possibly Sam’s greatest subtle dig at Tony ever…. 43:08 😂😂😂
He’s a total snob - can’t help himself
@@John_O_Maoilearca Oh c'mon now! They've always been pulling each other's legs from the very beginning. Besides, they were talkin about heavy vehicles when he made that comment.
I’m with Tony on how rewarding teaching your child how to ride a bike.
I will still be around hopefully for when Tony teaches his daughter how to drive like him 😂
Keep up the good work Sam and Tony ❤
When we wanted a replacement family car to go alongside our Alpine A110, the missus liked the thought of electric but hates wires so plugging in was a no no. We plumped for the new Nissan X-Trail which runs on electric only but has an engine as a generator. It works very well and is a good introduction to electric driving.
Great video - enjoyed having more car content than the last one!
A hybrid Porsche has to be progress if only to slow down the move towards full electric. Mazda do an interesting little SUV which has an 800cc rotary engine that charges the battery as you drive and doesn't drive the wheels at all.
Don't be fooled by the talk around electric heavy trucks - for every kilo that goes on in battery weight, a kilo comes off the payload reducing revenue generating potential. Plus the range is still shite, they cost +100% more than a diesel equivalent and if you're charging a few together, the lights go out in the nearest town!
And Tony, if you think riding a bike for the first time is precious, just wait until they drive away for the first time after passing their test - heart-warming and terrifying all at once!
so happy i have my 981 gts i will be driving that car for the next 20 years, never getting rid of it
8 seconds on the ring is a big difference.
not really. Not for a track that size
@@2wheelcobra how many seconds would you say is a big difference at the ring?
Well, 8 second difference for the production car record is less than a 2% improvement.... I wouldn't call that a "big difference"
And that's on the record lap, so that percentage would be even smaller as the times increase.
@@2wheelcobra 2% in motorsport is a big difference.
@andtime4918 it's not very significant in refrence to the car they're talking about, and it would be much less than 2% in that instance.
Great vid as always. Sam where did you get your Porsche Stuttgart art??
Liking the Colour of your jumper Sam… matching your GT3 😉👌
I did try with my beauty Touareg Tony 😅 !
Modified 4c's are pretty awesome with 4-500hp.
Will they be reliable tho considerin Alfa's havin a history of things fallin apart over time n developin electronic niggles, let alone engine n transmission issues?
Tony going straight in on the 4C! 😂😂😂
Still watching fpr tony only 😊
Enjoyed listening, my son chuntering when listening to the podcast in the car, so missed half had to listen again to the Porsche part. Feel in some of the videos I have seen they have not really been able to demonstrate the speed, so think need to see it put against something.
That BYD bus is actually mostly made of battery - it can only carry three people (including the driver) 😂
3 people died mining the minerals for it?
Good relations with neighbours are priceless!
Don't shoot me please (I'm a petrolhead as much as anyone here), but I think it's weird Porsche hasn't gone a bit further with the hybrid tech to lower the CO2 number. That would really help the car in markets with massively punishing tax systems (Netherlands, France,...)
I think they realised they don’t need to yet, with the rest of the range going electric; Taycan, Macan, Cayman, Boxster, Cayenne, and a larger SUV are or will be all electric.
I think most people who have the cash to “own” a new Porsche are not put off by the taxes.
Don’t get me wrong. I know the taxes are massive, especially the new changes in france, but most buyers of new 911’s are millionaires
I can't agree on the exhaust noise. These newer cars with piped in sounds into the cabin. Give me a proper older V8 rumble anyday.
I bought a 4C because of you. Had proper cars since then. Get a Mini GP3 if you feel like another 4C
Wasn’t the I3 and I8 battery with a range extender engine 🧐🧐🧐🧐
A couple things:
-Porsche isn’t the first to use an electrically assisted turbo: both MB and JLR have inline 6 engines with similar tech.
-one of the big reasons Porsche added this hybrid system is to comply with more stringent EU emissions regs - wasn’t strictly just for added performance
-I think the electric motor part of the PDK will likely be the most reliable part of it - also it appears to be installed in place of a traditional flywheel so even if it goes wrong it wouldn’t require replacing the whole transmission
-You guys kept using the phrase “self charging” and saying that the Porsche system doesn’t do that. Actually that’s the only way the battery is charged here- regen.
-you guys seemed to think that somehow the batteries used in hybrids are more reliable than full EVs. Hybrid batteries experience way more charge/discharge cycles due to the smaller size and how they’re used. They also tend to lack the liquid cooling of full BEVs
I had a 4c and now own a 296 and 718 Spyder. The 4c is actually an incredible cheap to maintain track toy.
The PDK EV motor actually makes 55hp. It’s the motor in the eTurbo that makes 15hp.
I actually subscribed to STG while the 4C was on the channel.
My garage is literally an SVR CE & a 718 Spyder, but I usually don’t put a fake plant behind them.
That looks like a real indoor plant tho. I've a few similar ones scattered around the house.
Just making the vehicles more complicated and more expensive to fix.
For the small generator type of ev the mazda mx-30 r-ev exists which is a electric car with a rotary engine generator which extends the range considerably.
991.1 to 991.2 changed the power trains from 3.4L and 3.8 NA to smaller turbo engines. I’d say that’s a a pretty big mid generation change
You guys should give a listen what song Spike made for you and Tony while also discussing the new 911!
I wish I could find a link for that…
Clever launching the tech on the ‘fancy’ GTS version to test the waters. Turbo may have actual hybrid on top and others will have it so gt can stay na
If im not mistaken, the Audi SQ7 (diesel) had similar tech with the electric motor for the turbos.
Its quite easy to see that the focus is shifting away from EVs to hybrids when it comes to manufacturers and their strategies.
The E-turbo technology was actually introduced in the Mercedes C43 AMG.
Re that BYD bus, is there really much innovation happening, or is everyone just sticking in a bigger battery?
Genuine question
IMO the only metric that matters is the per mile efficiency, not range
Range is easy to game, efficiency is a measure of like for like improvement…
If range was easy to game every car would have a 600mile range by now. Sure for buses the main thing is just cost, but getting drivers to care about mpw in the same way they care about range or mpg just isn't happening
Porsche has made a very smart play here, remember how they removed the manual option in the 991.1 gt3 and everyone revolted, for next generation gt3 they brought it back and people went crazy for it.
With this is new hybrid 911 they trying come up with more aesthetic differences between the rest of the 911’s and the gt3 that’s going to come in the future, so people will miss the analog gauge cluster and the classic starter switch and they are going to give the 992.2 gt3 all of that and a bit more and say you want the old times to roll back just buy the new gt3 and everyone will go crazy for it.
I started watching when you got the 4C
You drive and get a coffee loved it when you used to do that 😊
I wonder if Sam will continue podcasting when he becomes the Earl of Westmorland?
PDK literally stand for Porsche double clutch - Porsche Doppel Kupplung in German and it was co-developped with ZF, means Tony is not completely off, it is from ZF but it's a double clutch.
Right, it's Porsche's own design but they have ZF build them for them. Always have, since it's introduction, iirc.
Embarrassing misunderstanding of the new 992.2 GTS. What it most certainly is not is a MHEV+!
The lads are a bit iffy on what the Car is and then ran with their idea during the Podcast to have a poorly constructed dig at EV’s. Wait till they bring out a fully electric 911 when the the battery tech and weight is right in the next few years. When it corners like it’s on rails and takes off like a scolded cat quicker than any previous. Everyone is going on about the Taycan depreciation but what an absolute beast of a Car.
Will you both get over yourselves!! Performance by a hair lenght is great if your racing or chasing times. The 911, all electric, "on rails", would be great for performance, but people want character! They want more than just quiet, fastly depreciating performance battery on wheels. Both going on like women you are! Listen to yourselves your embarrassing. A CAR is not a battery with wheels.
Vote paul for full time on these chats, I’m not convinced used car salesman can be unbiased, well it’s obvious to me
I miss your videos from days with F-type
I think the incoming GT2 RS will have the e Turbo hybrid tech.
I drive Ev and M3 comp I think unless your a true petrol head there won’t be anything soon you will miss from an ice if it goes quieter than it is I’ll chuck the towel in
Sam black car behind you it looks really good.
Another problem with ev's is the weight. My transit connect has a gross weight of 2.2t, my boss xc40 weighs 3t. Engineers are having to workout if carparks can take the weight. And lorrys jumping to 50t, the roads are already wearing out too quickly.
Yes F1 uses electric turbo its called MGU-H - hybrid is electric motor on the turbo, can boost and recover energy.
YASA are the company that manufatures the electric motors in many electric and hybrid cars. Ferrari and Merc, for example. The electric motors aren't used to capacity so the likes of Ferrari or Merc can launch a new car in the coming years with the same electric motor, just turned up a little.
Check Edison Motors out, they are making an EV lorry with a diesel generator on it for that extra chargeability for those sticky situations.
My first proper car was a 911… always had some affinity with it….. maybe I’m getting old and grumpy but that one just left me feeling cold. Didn’t hate it, didn’t like it…. Just disinterested.
the start stop button is horrendous though, it's something you associate with porsche and comes from their racing history, why now of all times do they change it to generic crap. They left on long enough for people to appreciate it and realise it's a porsche racing thing, just to bin it. Imagine if they got rid of the G-Wagon door sound, it's just opening the door but it's a big part of the character of the car.
I got start stop on my Subaru. It’s so annoying
Don’t think you mentioned that the engine had increased from 3.0 to 3.6. I wondered if this would improve the engine sound?
Probably not since noise regs are getting tighter
The engine itself will probably sound better, with the added displacement and the removal of one turbo, the engine should actually sound really nice (and who knows how that F1-style electric turbo is going to effect the sound, it could be really interesting). The sound-killer for the GTS is gonna be the stock exhaust, which will surely be strangled to death because of EU regs.
I don't see why it wouldn't sound better with a more free-flowing exhaust on it, though. Just a nice cat-back should do it. I'm certainly curious to find out.
The electric turbo isn’t new. F1 tech and Mercedes launched it on the W206 C43.
I don't know about other markets, but here in India the new hybrid GTS is more expensive than the 992 GT3!
Pretty sure Mercedes where the first to do e turbos in road cars and they got it from the f1 car. The Porsche e turbo isnt revolutionary by any measure.😂 Stop drinking the coolaid
The battery tec may off moved forward, but i dont think so, its all in the cost and to make us pay more, there was nothing wrong with the old led batteries.
Porsche know people do not like change when it comes to 911's all too well. They feel pressure to shift to electric and know their audience. They will start with this and slowly increase the amount of electric propulsion. I expect in a few years the only purely ICE Porsche will be from the GT division.
Can you imagine being stuck on that bus when there is the inevitable lithium battery fire? I spend ~3.5 hours on buses for my work commute everyday and that idea horrifies me. The windows don't even open on modern buses. On hot days in Australia where 75% of the buses aircon is broken, they're a nightmare. You can't breath. Transport companies use these things until they die... Maintenance and care aren't exactly their priority. Profit is. The last thing the world needs is giant electric scooter, highly flammable lithium batteries under your ass when commuting to your work place on public transport on a 45 degree day.
Not sure what buses you are on in Australia but never been on a bus where the AC has not worked?. You sound like your in a third world country trying to make a point about EV bus. If the lithium battery did fail for some wired reason as they just don’t as a common thing. You would have plenty of time as they slow burn they don’t explode like petrol or diesel buses.
I’d agree with going Toyota for hybrid
Other positive aspect of hybrids: if/when batteries die, you can still use the car..
The battery will be covered under drivetrain warranty and the cell will last just as long as the rest of the motor
Let’s hope so. Else will end up in a P1, La Ferrari state of affairs.
@@Joolz1982 problem with a lot of them is lack of use and no cycling of battery - very limited numbers in production - 911 are mass produced by comparison and actually used
‘Literally’ bingo is strong in this one…….
Love you guys. But an hour about a 911 refresh? After you've been discussing it before the official reveal. Drifting into the topic of the future of engines... You're repeating yourself for a hundredth time on this one. Nothing's really changing that much, take it easy. ❤
To me, and maybe with some bias as an owner, but for purists, I don’t think you can truly look past a 991.1. 3.4 or 3.6 with a sports exhaust simply isn’t beatable - even if you sacrifice some of the mod cons!
I would imagine the motor replaces the torque convertor othe manufacturers do this.
I've always found when it comes to Hybrids people tend to be in two camps. They're either the best of both worlds, or the worst of both worlds. To the former they're good because you've got electric power when needed and a petrol engine for longer journeys. But for the latter they're hopeless, you've got a small petrol engine and a heavy battery with a low range.
I'm personally all for Hybrids. The infrastructure just isn't there for mass adoption of EVs, no matter what anyone says. I also think that manufacturers should have been allowed to continue developing the internal combustion engine rather than effectively banning it. Just think of how clean they'd be able to get them. As of a few years ago (it probably isn't the case anymore) the cleanest most efficient engine available was the V8 diesel in the Range Rover.
And as for the no external noise from any car mandate, that's just completely ridiculous in my opinion!
This isn't either of those two types of hybrid. It's a power boost and power fill hybrid. It's simply using EV tech to add performance. Think 2nd gen. Honda NSX.
On the subject of HGV's you say weight doesn't matter and you can put loads of batteries in then. Thats not the case at all as HGV's can only weight so much so by putting loads of batteries in them you have less for payload so earn less money. Thats more important the performance.
I agree. Was thinking the same. It'd really hurt the independent truck drivers out there cos apart from the payload, their route planning will also heavily depend on charging stations that can accommodate heavy vehicles and that delivery times will also be impacted cos of charging durations.
Also, another thing that I figured from the huge push for EV trucks in the US is that those pushing for it r Tesla fanboys n ones who have absolutely no idea of the bare minimum of longhaul trucking.
We’ve gone from ‘ cars don’t break anymore’ to it’s broken before it turns a wheel….I’m sure your safe with Porsche
Everyone loves a trip to Luxembourg to visit their private wealth banker 👍🏻
With interest rates dropping , one might as well withdraw some 💰 funds and purchase a car. Enjoy
Why oh why do these e-fuel manufacturers insist on taking the CO2 back in the process of making the fuel instead of just planting hemp and let that do the sequestration? Perhaps it's because normal oil could also be carbon neutral with that method...... 50:50
Imagine a turbo s with electric turbo technology
The Turbo S will likely have two electric turbos
It'll probably have one motor from the same E-Turbo setup to minimise lag as the GTS n another motor to power the front wheels kinda like the Ferrari SF90.
Prediction... 992.2 standard Carreras will hold their values better than the new 992.2 GTS... simply cause of the hybrid system and the costs involved.
e turbocharger are not new, and Porsche dropped the ball on this, the whole range could have gotten a real power bump, and we could have had more bang for our buck, thus is just more stuff that will break and need replacement.
How can a car have no external noise?😂
New front flaps on 911 look horrendous!
Absolutely
Hybrid is a stop-gap measure, not the future.
Was that an actor that keeps walking past?
I bet if it was Ford doing this hybrid thing it wouldn't be getting hailed as "revolutionary" ;)
⭐⭐
Right at the beginning when Sam was searching for the name of the French town south of Lyon and Tony comes up with Grenoble telling us it’s a lovely place. Totally 100% wrong. 25 years ago Grenoble was ok now it’s overrun with migrants and illegal migrants who’ve made their way up from Marseille and other Mediterranean towns, crime, theft, mugging and knife crime is out of control. I know this because I have friends who have lived there for 30 years and are now trying to move away ue to the situation.
I drove my expensive Italian sports car down there a few years ago and was warned not to leave it in the city at all because folks will assume you’re a drug dealer or just steal the car. I took their advice and stayed/parked it out of the city instead at a nice chateau.
Skip the place as it’s now ruined by African and Middle Eastern Muslim men
It sounds like what Hyundai use in their SUV.
doesn't 992.2 GTS have all new engine?
330e is cracking
Im all over place sam like you where i really want to try ev seen few 2021 mach e one is 24k other 26 think might be steal for ev with range for in city work and out country and back on weekends with some style points.
Audi e-tron 4 door here is still high 30s used in the usa 🇺🇸. As future realy see these new battery tec Japanese water batteries smaller batteries take a foot hold kai all ready have some sub 400 mile range . . But also see hydrogen tech going crazy right know in performance they get are crazy .
This 992.2 has all inconvenient of a hybrid (weight, complexity, cost of repair, etc...) with none of the advantages (no CO2 reduction, no fuel consumption improvement, no EV mode).
Exhaust is not about emissions, it's about the religion of climate change.
How is climate change a religion?
@@Anonacc54it’s a cult