Thank you sooo much! Very informative. Respect! Can't believe it's been 9 years and I can't even find a local coach that can share the info you mentioned.
Thank you for watching and leveraging the information that we provide. I am happy to read that this video was very helpful to you. I hope that man others in my Channel are equally as useful.
That's just what I did on mine and didn't touch the stock chain. You may find depending on tire brand, size etc that you may need 2-3mm of washers between the shock and frame to correct the geometry.
Hi Dave. I have tall gearing on my gen 5 zx 10r . Stock gearing is 17/39. Is going to 17/40 useless ? Or should I go 17/41? The new gen 6 zx 10 r is now 17/41. So i figure no harm in going 17/41 on my gen5 2020. I am just riding street and fwy. What do you think?
damn i hope my axle will be ok, going from 16/46 108lnk to 15/45 106lnk so +2 .. 00 gsxr 600... so to keep stock geometry even tho im losing 2 teeth, id run the stock 108 link to achieve stock geometry? right. i basically did a -1/-1
Dave, I've got an 09 R1 (as well) and want to keep the stock chain, but drop 1 tooth up front on the countershaft sprocket, is it ok to move the axle back to take up the extra slack? Or should I be cutting the chain...
Dave, Like your vids by the way, just watched this one as I'm thinking of going -1/+1 on my 08 zx6r but didn`t take geometry into consideration. By going 1 down in the front and one up in the rear, will the geometry stay the same as it would stock gearing? Also, in your opinion, do you think this change is too much for extra low down pull or just right? Many thanks in advance, Ben.
Ben - that change will keep the rear axle in roughly the same spot, so no worries on geometry. It realy helps with torque, so you get a +ve not a -ve :)
Jim Cummings & Dave Moss.... Good question.... I have the 07 R6 and went to a 190/55/17 rear tire and the 520 -1/+2 conversion. Is there anything I need to know about that might affect the handling of the bike?? I had the 190 on and it was a significant difference in the turns... I haven't been back to the track since I changed my gears yet. Just wanted to know if I need or should adjust something to compensate for the larger rear tire and having more torque? I also know I did not have the knowledge of sag settings in the past either. I do now ans have them set to my weight so maybe thats why I was having trouble in the turns with the taller rear tire??? Idk Your thoughts....?
i watch this video and u mention about wheelbase, can u make video or topic about this dave? since it will change the bike handle in cornering. thanks dave
@@catalystreactionsbw How about a road racers ultimate guide to motorcycle tuning. All the good stuff organised by chapter and a large Q and A section. Not everyone will do the tuning themselves but will want to diagnose issues and look for improvements as far as ergonomics, performance and proper bike set up. It s pretty broad description but basically take your videos and condense that into an easy to understand and follow manual. Honestly, any book that you publish i will buy. Where do we go to put in a pre order? :) btw thanks for sharing your years of knowledge and experience on CZcams. :)
It makes a great deal of sense from 5.000 feet in that regard, and yes, a tall first gear on any bike will help with acceleration and wheelies etc. Add in the new surge in electronics and we get the best of all worlds :)
Hi Dave. I'm just trying to get little more top end on my 125cc 4 striker what do you recommend for gearing for strictly road commuting on a 65mph road
The engine has to be able to pull smaller rear sprocket sizes oand/or larger front sprocket (cheaper and easier). That means less acceleration but much better mileage along with potentially more top speed.
Torque is bottom end power, so changing gearing would give you better acceleration allowing the torque to be used quicker. You would actually go -1 in the front sprocket as that is the cheapest solution to give you what you are looking for.
If you are drag racing, you will go down 2 in front and up 3 in the rear. If you are looking for better acceleration, one down in front is a good choice otherwise you will spend too much time with the front wheel in the air.
What if you're going from a 630 to a 530? Does the smaller pitch effect performance or is it all in the tooth count? I can't seem to find a definitive answer for that question. I'm going from 15/38 630 to 16/42 530 maybe. I'm looking for more bottom end not too end.
1. Weight loss on the chain so less reciprocating mass. 2. Sprockets depend on material/weight so you might want to weigh the OEM's and the replacements to check. 3 Weight reduction = slightly better acceleration.
probably not on modern fuel injected (ABS) bikes. my old kawa 1100 has a mechanical speedo drive from the front wheel, i changed from 16/47 to 18/44 and dropped about 900rpm at 120km/h, in that case no changes needed.
Hi, I have a 2008 Yamaha MT03 which will start stalling as soon as I lower my rpm on the 4th or 5th gear. What would be the right sprocket change to get rid of this nuisance ? Should I gear up or gear down ? change front or rear sprocket ? and by how much teeth ? Thanks
Stalling is not a gearing issue, so that won't solve the problem. Odd why it would only be in 4th or 5th gear and not in every gear or at idle. I would get the valve clearances checked and start there.
@@catalystreactionsbw thanks for your reply. What I mean by stalling in low revs is, that it like you have to drive this bike on full throttle on 4th and 5th otherwise you have change gears all the time.
Pretty much everything out there, I used that set up on my gsxr, yzf600r and cbr it’s a common set up for the track or just for gaining the extra low end torque for doing power wheelies also makes a huge difference in acceleration.
How can the speedo be dependent on gearing? I thought the speedo is driven ftom the front wheel via toothed wheel or a shaft so gearing shouldn't have an effect on indicated speed or mileage.
Mechanical (driven by cable) speedos are not affected by gearing changes. However if you change tire or rim diameter size on the front it will change speedo reading.
The beauty of a bigger engine is that it can pull several gearing combinations. Going to a 17 front requires you to check for clearances as the chain will ride much higher overall both top and bottom. If it clears easily then you will need to assess chain angles and contact on the swing arm to the much smaller rear sprocket you list. Normally 1 up in the front is 2.5 teeth in the rear, so going up 2 teeth will dramatically change your rpms with the stock rear sprocket. Going much smaller with the rear sprocket might. require a different chain length?
Hello.. I really don't trust buying things on eBay for my bike especially after the video I saw the guy eating s*** because the f****** Chinese brake lever had slack and it locked up on him. Well I got something now that's pretty important. My tires are bald as f*** getting ready to change them and I noticed my chain is coming apart and I imagine I need a sprocket to go with it. How do I know if it's a quality sprocket and chain or a piece of s*** from China? And I'm on a budget right now so I'm broke as hell but I don't want to buy some crap and have it flying off on the freeway or taking my leg off when the Chinese chain snaps going a hundred thirty
So I was kind of thinking I might change the gearing since I have to change the sprocket this is on my Ninja 650. It's pretty f****** torki but I don't know I was thinking about putting a bigger rear sprocket to ride wheelies and s**. I was supposed to sell the ninja when I got the GSXR but I can't do it so I think I'm going to make it a stunt biker Street Fighter something. But anyway would going up a few teeth in back make a hell of a lot of difference? This is my get around town bike. When I get on the freeway to haul ass I take the Suzuki
@@johnconnersmithllc6095 If purchasing is challenging, price shop Renthal, Drive etc for replacement chain and sprocket kits. That will cost you $140 to $160. If maintained correctly, they will last 15-25,000 miles.
Too many assumptions being made here like the speedo being in error when you change your gearing! This is only true if your speedo is being driven off the gearbox or rear wheel instead of the traditional front wheel arrangement with which the gearing makes no difference at all. As for chain lubing, Lubing the chain when its hot is only good for standard non 'O' ring chains but how many bikes, with the exception of dirt bikes, use those now? With 'o' ring and 'x' ring chains you're only lubing the rings (of whatever variety) in order to keep them happy so it does not matter whether the chain is hot or cold as your only lubricating the outside of the rings. The rings are there to keep the grease in and everything else out. They won't need any more grease inside unless the rings have failed and the links have dried out, in which case the chain is probably worn beyond use anyway! As for the gearing, I had a bike for restoration where the gearing had been so badly chosen the bike would barely pull beyond 40MPH!! (It was only 100cc but whatever). I replaced both sprockets for the standard OEM set-up and absolutely transformed the performance from the 40MPH top speed and no acceleration (even downhill!) to 70-75MPH in one stroke! So, for the street, if it works don't fix it! .....For the track, well.... thats a different story!
Another very bad presentation plagued with errors. First of all, who cares with a -1, +2 sprocket setup if the rear axle position changes ever so slightly? Second, it is not a gearing change, it is a sprocket change. A gearing change would require splitting the case and changing one or more of the actual gears. Re-sprocketing a motorcycle is great for putting the bike in a more usable speedrange for each gear. For example, on my 04 ZX-10R, stock sprockets were 17-39 which made 1st gear way too tall for my style of riding. I didn't want to have to go way above legal speeds to get at the power and I wanted to be able to shortshift all 6 gears at reasonable speeds. So instead I went with 15-50 sprockets and that was a wonderful combination. Great acceleration and shorter speed ranges in each gear. I downvoted this video.
Everyone should care as that changes the balance point of the chassis forward or backward. That can significantly change the way the motorcycle rides on the road in a positive or adverse way. It is a gearing change and gearing charts abound on the web to leverage exactly what you did with the 15/50 arrangement for your final drive ratios. Once that gearing ratio change has been set with sprockets and chain length, you should work on geometry and suspension to optimize what you have created. For the track, a gearing change mandates immediate geometry and suspension revisions.
Sprockets are NOT gears. Gears mesh with each other, sprockets do NOT (they use a chain instead). So you are wrong on that. Also, a rear axle position change of a few millimeters has a negligible effect on the balance point, center of gravity, steering, suspension... for the average street rider so it is irrelevant. Some people told me I was "crazy" to run 15 and 50 tooth sprockets on a liter bike but I say it is crazier to have a bike that can do close to 100 MPH in 1st gear. Even with those "radical" sprockets, the top speed of my bike was still around 150 MPH. The beauty was a could shortshift all 6 gears within about 50 MPH.
I appreciate the reply and you got what you wanted with your changes to make your bike yours. Some reading on chain angle might be very helpful for you to increase your knowledge base.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. Words do have meaning. Having a Bachelor's Degree in Linguistics, I find the distinction you raise instructional. The following from Renthal provides an industry explanation of "gearing". www.renthal.com/shop/support/tech-support/gearing-further You could have achieved the same performance result on your ZX-10R by changing the "gears" in the gear box instead of the sprockets. While the Oxford definition of "gear" may be, "Toothed wheels that mesh blah blah blah," the larger or broader definition in the motorcycle and bicycle industries, expressed colloquially as "gearing," refers to ratio changes achieved by varying the size of sprockets rather than "gears." On a motorcycle that last ratio of front to rear sprocket is called the "final drive ratio" for obvious reasons. Again, in a car that ratio is achieved with "gears," but on a motorcycle with sprockets. Before the invention of "gears" this principle of changing ratios was achieved with pulleys in things like "block and tackle" (nothing to do with American football), lathes, and other 18th and 19th Century industrial applications. In fact, the Jet lathe in my shop employs belts and pulleys to change the "gearing" which changes the headstock speed, thread pitches, etc. The underlying principle we now call "gearing" is to alter the ratio of connected spinning wheels (gears connected directly, sprockets by chains, pulleys by ropes, whatever) to optimize the trade off between force and distance, or it's more important derivative, force and speed (which is distance/time, a la mph or kph). Regarding the effectiveness of millimeter changes, it depends on the motorcycle. The R6 is sensitive, the Harley Bagger... not so much.
Thanks Dave. Your very knowledgeable, and I appreciate you getting back with me.
Thank you sooo much! Very informative. Respect! Can't believe it's been 9 years and I can't even find a local coach that can share the info you mentioned.
Thank you for watching and leveraging the information that we provide. I am happy to read that this video was very helpful to you. I hope that man others in my Channel are equally as useful.
Came across you recently
Old and newer videos
Your great at explications
Very informative , and Calm love it
Thanks and welcome
That's just what I did on mine and didn't touch the stock chain. You may find depending on tire brand, size etc that you may need 2-3mm of washers between the shock and frame to correct the geometry.
Hi Dave. I have tall gearing on my gen 5 zx 10r . Stock gearing is 17/39. Is going to 17/40 useless ? Or should I go 17/41? The new gen 6 zx 10 r is now 17/41. So i figure no harm in going 17/41 on my gen5 2020. I am just riding street and fwy. What do you think?
Hi Dave, Why my front 2010 R1 shows on the right side of tyre wear more than on the left side.. my rear tyre wear evenly on left and right. thanks.
07 R6.. Vortex 520 -1/+2 came pre cut ready to install... Nothing to cut! Great value too... Just my $.02
damn i hope my axle will be ok, going from 16/46 108lnk to 15/45 106lnk so +2 .. 00 gsxr 600... so to keep stock geometry even tho im losing 2 teeth, id run the stock 108 link to achieve stock geometry? right. i basically did a -1/-1
Dave, I've got an 09 R1 (as well) and want to keep the stock chain, but drop 1 tooth up front on the countershaft sprocket, is it ok to move the axle back to take up the extra slack? Or should I be cutting the chain...
Thanks for the information .
Dave, Like your vids by the way, just watched this one as I'm thinking of going -1/+1 on my 08 zx6r but didn`t take geometry into consideration. By going 1 down in the front and one up in the rear, will the geometry stay the same as it would stock gearing? Also, in your opinion, do you think this change is too much for extra low down pull or just right? Many thanks in advance, Ben.
Ben - that change will keep the rear axle in roughly the same spot, so no worries on geometry. It realy helps with torque, so you get a +ve not a -ve :)
Jim Cummings & Dave Moss....
Good question.... I have the 07 R6 and went to a 190/55/17 rear tire and the 520 -1/+2 conversion. Is there anything I need to know about that might affect the handling of the bike?? I had the 190 on and it was a significant difference in the turns... I haven't been back to the track since I changed my gears yet. Just wanted to know if I need or should adjust something to compensate for the larger rear tire and having more torque? I also know I did not have the knowledge of sag settings in the past either. I do now ans have them set to my weight so maybe thats why I was having trouble in the turns with the taller rear tire??? Idk
Your thoughts....?
i watch this video and u mention about wheelbase, can u make video or topic about this dave?
since it will change the bike handle in cornering. thanks dave
We cover that specifically in the geometry videos. If we haven't covered it as a stand alone, we can add it to the queue.
Dave, your material is the absolute best. Any plans to write a book?
I have thought about it many times. What would you like to read about?
@@catalystreactionsbw How about a road racers ultimate guide to motorcycle tuning. All the good stuff organised by chapter and a large Q and A section. Not everyone will do the tuning themselves but will want to diagnose issues and look for improvements as far as ergonomics, performance and proper bike set up. It s pretty broad description but basically take your videos and condense that into an easy to understand and follow manual. Honestly, any book that you publish i will buy. Where do we go to put in a pre order? :) btw thanks for sharing your years of knowledge and experience on CZcams. :)
thanks Dave!
Dave, is it fair to say that manufacturers install a tall internal first gear to calm down litre bikes?
It makes a great deal of sense from 5.000 feet in that regard, and yes, a tall first gear on any bike will help with acceleration and wheelies etc. Add in the new surge in electronics and we get the best of all worlds :)
Hi Dave. I'm just trying to get little more top end on my 125cc 4 striker what do you recommend for gearing for strictly road commuting on a 65mph road
The engine has to be able to pull smaller rear sprocket sizes oand/or larger front sprocket (cheaper and easier). That means less acceleration but much better mileage along with potentially more top speed.
Have a CB500F. Would like a bit more torque. Don't care about top end. Should I go +1 on the rear? Thx
Torque is bottom end power, so changing gearing would give you better acceleration allowing the torque to be used quicker. You would actually go -1 in the front sprocket as that is the cheapest solution to give you what you are looking for.
Hello Dave, what's the best gearing for gen 4 zx10r ? for short distances
If you are drag racing, you will go down 2 in front and up 3 in the rear. If you are looking for better acceleration, one down in front is a good choice otherwise you will spend too much time with the front wheel in the air.
positive is +1 tooth and -ve would be minus 1 tooth
What if you're going from a 630 to a 530? Does the smaller pitch effect performance or is it all in the tooth count? I can't seem to find a definitive answer for that question. I'm going from 15/38 630 to 16/42 530 maybe. I'm looking for more bottom end not too end.
1. Weight loss on the chain so less reciprocating mass. 2. Sprockets depend on material/weight so you might want to weigh the OEM's and the replacements to check. 3 Weight reduction = slightly better acceleration.
probably not on modern fuel injected (ABS) bikes.
my old kawa 1100 has a mechanical speedo drive from the front wheel, i changed from 16/47 to 18/44 and dropped about 900rpm at 120km/h, in that case no changes needed.
Hi, I have a 2008 Yamaha MT03 which will start stalling as soon as I lower my rpm on the 4th or 5th gear. What would be the right sprocket change to get rid of this nuisance ? Should I gear up or gear down ? change front or rear sprocket ? and by how much teeth ? Thanks
Stalling is not a gearing issue, so that won't solve the problem. Odd why it would only be in 4th or 5th gear and not in every gear or at idle. I would get the valve clearances checked and start there.
@@catalystreactionsbw thanks for your reply. What I mean by stalling in low revs is, that it like you have to drive this bike on full throttle on 4th and 5th otherwise you have change gears all the time.
@@malliasteve Ah....... okay, then get the valves clearances checked and also take a look at throttle free play.
-1 down in front +2 up in rear for me fun fun!
on what bike?
Pretty much everything out there, I used that set up on my gsxr, yzf600r and cbr it’s a common set up for the track or just for gaining the extra low end torque for doing power wheelies also makes a huge difference in acceleration.
How can the speedo be dependent on gearing? I thought the speedo is driven ftom the front wheel via toothed wheel or a shaft so gearing shouldn't have an effect on indicated speed or mileage.
Mechanical (driven by cable) speedos are not affected by gearing changes. However if you change tire or rim diameter size on the front it will change speedo reading.
2:05 do mm's cm's actually make that much difference? how so?
Geometry and leverage on the rear shock - that needs to be accounted for with correct spring rate, settings and shock length.
My 2017 Kawasaki z900 is15/44 stock rpm’s on the highway suck would 17/41 be better
The beauty of a bigger engine is that it can pull several gearing combinations. Going to a 17 front requires you to check for clearances as the chain will ride much higher overall both top and bottom. If it clears easily then you will need to assess chain angles and contact on the swing arm to the much smaller rear sprocket you list. Normally 1 up in the front is 2.5 teeth in the rear, so going up 2 teeth will dramatically change your rpms with the stock rear sprocket. Going much smaller with the rear sprocket might. require a different chain length?
Hello.. I really don't trust buying things on eBay for my bike especially after the video I saw the guy eating s*** because the f****** Chinese brake lever had slack and it locked up on him. Well I got something now that's pretty important. My tires are bald as f*** getting ready to change them and I noticed my chain is coming apart and I imagine I need a sprocket to go with it. How do I know if it's a quality sprocket and chain or a piece of s*** from China? And I'm on a budget right now so I'm broke as hell but I don't want to buy some crap and have it flying off on the freeway or taking my leg off when the Chinese chain snaps going a hundred thirty
So I was kind of thinking I might change the gearing since I have to change the sprocket this is on my Ninja 650. It's pretty f****** torki but I don't know I was thinking about putting a bigger rear sprocket to ride wheelies and s**. I was supposed to sell the ninja when I got the GSXR but I can't do it so I think I'm going to make it a stunt biker Street Fighter something. But anyway would going up a few teeth in back make a hell of a lot of difference? This is my get around town bike. When I get on the freeway to haul ass I take the Suzuki
@@johnconnersmithllc6095 If purchasing is challenging, price shop Renthal, Drive etc for replacement chain and sprocket kits. That will cost you $140 to $160. If maintained correctly, they will last 15-25,000 miles.
talk about pedantic! most punters can't tell small% changes to geometry, a instinctive rider compensates all the time to the variables anyhow.
Too many assumptions being made here like the speedo being in error when you change your gearing!
This is only true if your speedo is being driven off the gearbox or rear wheel instead of the traditional front wheel arrangement with which the gearing makes no difference at all.
As for chain lubing, Lubing the chain when its hot is only good for standard non 'O' ring chains but how many bikes, with the exception of dirt bikes, use those now? With 'o' ring and 'x' ring chains you're only lubing the rings (of whatever variety) in order to keep them happy so it does not matter whether the chain is hot or cold as your only lubricating the outside of the rings. The rings are there to keep the grease in and everything else out. They won't need any more grease inside unless the rings have failed and the links have dried out, in which case the chain is probably worn beyond use anyway!
As for the gearing, I had a bike for restoration where the gearing had been so badly chosen the bike would barely pull beyond 40MPH!! (It was only 100cc but whatever). I replaced both sprockets for the standard OEM set-up and absolutely transformed the performance from the 40MPH top speed and no acceleration (even downhill!) to 70-75MPH in one stroke!
So, for the street, if it works don't fix it! .....For the track, well.... thats a different story!
Another very bad presentation plagued with errors. First of all, who cares with a -1, +2 sprocket setup if the rear axle position changes ever so slightly? Second, it is not a gearing change, it is a sprocket change. A gearing change would require splitting the case and changing one or more of the actual gears. Re-sprocketing a motorcycle is great for putting the bike in a more usable speedrange for each gear. For example, on my 04 ZX-10R, stock sprockets were 17-39 which made 1st gear way too tall for my style of riding. I didn't want to have to go way above legal speeds to get at the power and I wanted to be able to shortshift all 6 gears at reasonable speeds. So instead I went with 15-50 sprockets and that was a wonderful combination. Great acceleration and shorter speed ranges in each gear. I downvoted this video.
Everyone should care as that changes the balance point of the chassis forward or backward. That can significantly change the way the motorcycle rides on the road in a positive or adverse way. It is a gearing change and gearing charts abound on the web to leverage exactly what you did with the 15/50 arrangement for your final drive ratios. Once that gearing ratio change has been set with sprockets and chain length, you should work on geometry and suspension to optimize what you have created. For the track, a gearing change mandates immediate geometry and suspension revisions.
Sprockets are NOT gears. Gears mesh with each other, sprockets do NOT (they use a chain instead). So you are wrong on that. Also, a rear axle position change of a few millimeters has a negligible effect on the balance point, center of gravity, steering, suspension... for the average street rider so it is irrelevant. Some people told me I was "crazy" to run 15 and 50 tooth sprockets on a liter bike but I say it is crazier to have a bike that can do close to 100 MPH in 1st gear. Even with those "radical" sprockets, the top speed of my bike was still around 150 MPH. The beauty was a could shortshift all 6 gears within about 50 MPH.
I appreciate the reply and you got what you wanted with your changes to make your bike yours. Some reading on chain angle might be very helpful for you to increase your knowledge base.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. Words do have meaning. Having a Bachelor's Degree in Linguistics, I find the distinction you raise instructional. The following from Renthal provides an industry explanation of "gearing". www.renthal.com/shop/support/tech-support/gearing-further
You could have achieved the same performance result on your ZX-10R by changing the "gears" in the gear box instead of the sprockets.
While the Oxford definition of "gear" may be, "Toothed wheels that mesh blah blah blah," the larger or broader definition in the motorcycle and bicycle industries, expressed colloquially as "gearing," refers to ratio changes achieved by varying the size of sprockets rather than "gears." On a motorcycle that last ratio of front to rear sprocket is called the "final drive ratio" for obvious reasons. Again, in a car that ratio is achieved with "gears," but on a motorcycle with sprockets. Before the invention of "gears" this principle of changing ratios was achieved with pulleys in things like "block and tackle" (nothing to do with American football), lathes, and other 18th and 19th Century industrial applications. In fact, the Jet lathe in my shop employs belts and pulleys to change the "gearing" which changes the headstock speed, thread pitches, etc.
The underlying principle we now call "gearing" is to alter the ratio of connected spinning wheels (gears connected directly, sprockets by chains, pulleys by ropes, whatever) to optimize the trade off between force and distance, or it's more important derivative, force and speed (which is distance/time, a la mph or kph).
Regarding the effectiveness of millimeter changes, it depends on the motorcycle. The R6 is sensitive, the Harley Bagger... not so much.
You're a fucking idiot !!
u need shave