The Problem with Presto - REPRISE
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
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Hi, my name's Reece. I'm a passionate Creator, Transportation Planner, and Software Developer, interested in rapid transportation all around my home base of Toronto, Canada, as well as the whole world!
The Presto card system hasn't gotten *as* better as I would have liked, but it has certainly improved in a lot of ways. I just can't wait for that wider rollout of open payments - especially with London style fare capping! (And fare integration)
You can now reload a presto card "real time" with the iPhone app using NFC.
You should do one on GRTs fare system
NYC's OMNY card rolled out fare capping a few months back, and it's been a wallet-saver... Definitely something Presto needs to do.
Given how criminalised skipping a fare is treated as compared with say...not paying for parking (this is something you should definitely talk about in a video), the fact that someone can try to pay and still end up not paying is insane. It's happened to me more than once, I wasn't fined, but this kind of thing honestly makes me uncomfortable on transit...
There's actually a show channel 5 in the UK called fare dodgers. I'm sure clips are on CZcams. Anyway it's interesting to see the amount of effort the transit system goes through to make sure people are paying. They actually watched someone for a couple of years and caught him at a station and arrested him. It was estimated he swindled them out of a coupe thousand pounds by not paying at certain junctions over the course of 2+ years.
The amount of man power, resources and overhead for this stuff is astonishing.
Every system had his flaws. But that you get fined because of slow card reading? Really? The system of vienna what I know, you download the app, binding your credit card and you have everything what you need. But there are no gates. You have to buy your ticket before you enter. Sometime here and there are controllers and check if you have an card or on the app with QR code.
In some cases i think it is beneficial to make transit more accessible to people who might struggle to pay. There so many economic and technological issues that make people have to evade fare and yet the punishments are so harsh. Presto machines break down way too easily imo
Oh I absolutely agree, its completely unacceptable for users of the system
An ex of mine almost never used transit (before he met me), and then one time of the few times he did and got the system wrong, and the Melbourne transit police tried to fine him for an honest error there was almost a riot of other passengers calling them out.
People are really sick of this BS
I can't believe that we still don't have PRESTO as the main ticket purchase option for the Toronto Ferry Terminal
As a New Yorker who frequently visits Toronto, I *loved* Presto when compared to NYC's Metrocard, but now that I've switched to OMNY (based on Transport for London's licenced technology) I agree that it is superior to Presto. My biggest frustration with Presto was that in order to create a Presto account (so I could reload my card from my Android phone rather than have to use a fare machine when I land at Pearson before boarding the UP Express) I was *required* to have an address in Canada -- it won't accept US addresses/zip codes. Fortunately I could borrow a Torontonian friend's address and that worked. And to Presto's credit, at least it *does* accept any Canadian address, and can be reloaded from an Android phone using NFC, as opposed to Montreal's OPUS card, which requires a *QUEBEC* address and can only be refilled using a proprietary USB attachment (which you can order, but will only be shipped to Quebec addresses), so I have to take the time to refare my OPUS card when I land at Trudeau before boarding the 747 bus (ugh, bus... ugh...)
Great point about the bike share service. I was surprised how much of a nuisance it was to take out a bike in Toronto. For Montreal's Bixi -- in addition to the credit card, app, and key access -- you can link your Opus card and tap for a reduced fare. Easy. Works for Communauto (car sharing) too. It's a great example of a network effect for public transit and sharing services -- hope the TTC sorts this out soon.
Also "The Problem with Presto" sounds like an old Looney Tunes title. Maybe the cards will work better after being hit with a comically large mallet.
I think they removed the opus card for the bixi rentals this year. Not great, but to be fair as you said there’s simpler alternatives thay already exist so likely not the end of the world.
@@MattiasGraham LMAO, but yes . . . another thing Montreal really excels at . . . .
@@lucasdalessandro9945 Damn, you're right -- I thought my card was just expired, but nope: partnership over, no communication from Bixi. 😭The phone app is easy, at least.
@@lucasdalessandro9945 Ah, well that explains why my card wasn’t working (thought it was a glitch). That’s too bad. The phone app works well - but it was nice having only one card to worry about.
What it seems what is wants to be is the OV-chipcard(short for openbaar vervoer which means public transport) there is a small nfc chip in it. There’re still local or semi local tickets but almost all fares support the OV chipcard.
(Edit) this is the Dutch system btw
As a resident of KW, I have some sympathy for the reasoning that the region decided not to go with presto for our card readers. Presto doesn't support a free tier on a 4 month basis like what the region's does for the two universities. So that is an additional complexity.
idk if there are other reasons but that use case isn't a good enough reason to not adopt presto. Universities/Colleges in the Toronto like UTM also offer free transit through the student associations.
@@zenvd04 Ah now I think I remember, they wanted it to be integrated onto the student cards as well.
The way Ottawa handled it is by having a separate UPass card that also work on Presto machine, I'm surprised KW couldn't do the same thing.
@@Absolute_Zero7 I think they wanted to be able to just use the existing tap capabilities within the student cards.
Yeah, I think this is a case where both should have been forced to find a reasonable solution so we could have GRTs requested features and still have an integrated card
You said “if you have an android phone”, though iPhones now support loading too now (since apple added an NFC API). One thing I miss from some places is being able to pay cash on a bus (say with a $20 bill) and get a reloadable card with your change on it.
I recently went to Istanbul, their transit pass system is so much more sophisticated and flexible. You ought to make a video about them in the future
OCtranspo transfer times are "90" mins but Transfer times in a system that has local routes every thirty minutes making a trip across town effectively means you if the buses don't work out correctly and you have to wait 29 mins for the next local bus your transfer is only effective for as little as 55 mins.
I love these videos, so informative. A lot of these things we didn't know. Thanks Reece!
BC made the confusing decision to introduce a separate fare card system, Umo, for the entire province outside of Vancouver (but starting in Victoria first). I cannot wrap my mind around why they wouldn't have just expanded the Compass system rather than having separate cards for Vancouver and not-Vancouver
I think the default trip is better if being replaced by an auto complete function in London. You need to tap in and out every time, but provide some grace if you forget/unable to tap in/out.
This sounds very similar to the Leap Card we have in Ireland, it was introduced in 2011 for the greater Dublin area and has since expanded to the whole country. The main difference seems to be that you can top up a leap card using an iPhone or in any newsagents/supermarket.
Since the technology behind it is quite old a tender has gone out for a replacement system that will also work with apple/google pay and contactless.
Also to note the rollout was quite smooth as it was simply a like for like replacement for the existing separate smart cards used for trains, trams and buses.
@@naoise122 Or the Dutch OV-chipkaart. Nationwide, easy to use. Currently, the OVpay initiative is working on more payment options like contactless and train by GPS.
The Suica and Pasmo systems in Japan were super convenient when I was there. Effectively nationwide usage and could also be used for tap and pay with a bunch of other things (vending machines, convenience stores etc). Nationwide would probably be impossible to coordinate with all of the various municipal and regional transit authorities in Canada, but I can dream... Also, tap on, tap off is great and the default trip saves you... what? A tap? Seems silly and unnecessarily complicates things.
Suica and Pasmo are interchangeable with each other if you're in the Kantō region. I'd wish Japan would have standardized on a singular IC card supplier, though.
@@Sacto1654 I believe all the integrated transit IC cards use the same IC chip supplier, Sony's FeLiCa system. This is why cell phones sold in Japan tend to have the FeLiCa chip built in.
Not great for tourists who don't have the FeLiCa chip in their phones, although using a card that you "rent" for the duration of your stay isn't all that bad. For better or worse, the system was implemented far earlier than wide adoption of todays standard NFC. FeLiCa tech despite its age is somewhat more secure than standard NFC because it is very near field (proximity isn't good enough, you need to tap).
I think for a national system where it is not already setup, contactless is the only reasonable option. In London, we have had oyster for ages which has most things you could want and is accepted on basically any transport, though unlike Japan not general shopping as contactless has taken that position in the UK (I know in some bits of Europe cash is still king and not sure about NA). Seemingly without even reader replacement contactless cards/smartphones can be used and are treated just like oysters, you can even register them and check your joune history and they work with London's system for trains that is not just tap-on/tap-off but tap-on/tap-at-interchanges/tap-of and they can go to more stations since that was one of the limitations of oyster. Though they have weekly caps, I'm not sure you can put season cards on them so it's not perfect and it hasn't become the national system using insteead the 'smartcard' system which is in most of the country only works with season tickets and in some reagons it is pay-s-you-go but only where an operater has embraced it I don't personally know contactlesses limitations.
@@MaebhsUrbanity Cash is still fairly dominant in the US, but contactless is is fairly standard for payment in Canada. The killer in Canada, though, is the lack of a cohesive transit network at a national level. Very large country with a fairly low population density means that major population centres are fairly spread out, and our national passenger rail service is largely tourist oriented, at the mercy of freight priority, and infrequent outside of a handful of markets. This means that there's very little coordination beyond the provincial level, so unfortunately can't see anything similar happening here for a long time.
@@flashpoint9135I still think everyone in Japan should use a single card working off a preloaded amount of money for transit. At least Suica is a de facto standard used by the major JR Group companies.
yesterday I forgot my presto card at home and asked the guy if I could just buy a ticket by credit card like you could before. Apparently cash, token, and tickets are all no longer accepted. He opened the door and gave me s free ride.
Ottawa buses still accept cash, and you can buy tickets and day passes at ticket machines using cash, debit, or credit.
In Austria we have a card for 3 Euros a day (but you have to buy a whole year at once) with which you can to just hop on every transit system in our country and drive as far as you want
There are also cards for 2 or 1 Euro a day with the same condition but only in a specific zone
Meanwhile GO has it for one day during the weekend or on a holiday for 10 dollars, and 30 dollars for two people for one day during the weekdays
Reason why bikes hare Toronto will always be a struggle in integrating with say Presto is the security of the bikes. Bike sharing amenities usually associate you by your credit card/ID to prevent any potential person stealing their bikes. Having an anonymous presto with $10 will make it so that people stealing the bikes CAN get away with it.
Sure we could do something where we create a tier of ridership where if you want a feature like this, you link your credit card with this presto (or alternatively make it so everyone has to link it) but then that really creates a potential security threat just like a typical credit card- stealing it could be costly on ypu. Also, given that presto already has a decent learning curve and the fact that little changes take so much time to be implemented, i doubt they would try something like this.
An overhaul would be nice, but i assume the majority of policy or decision makers are 1) people that don't use transit and 2) not amazingly tech savvy and would assume that presto is already amazing and getting the job done
What would fix ALL of the issues adressed above are creating a mobile/phone tappable card because of how convinient that is!!!!!!
The go transit override button is just silly. They should automatically detect. If you tap at the second station, they can just assume it's the destination if within say 2 hours of the first tap. The override should just not exist. If you don't tap off, it assumes your default route.
Not to mention transfers to other agencies with a missed tap off. Yes, I got off at Scarborough town and boarded a bus and didn't go all the way to Mississauga and magically teleport to tap on at Scarborough town. I've probably given presto an extra $50 a year because of missed tap offs. Talk about discouraging use...
It surprises me that almost nowhere has a fully fare-integrated system across the entire country, like the OV-chipkaart in the Netherlands.
The most shitty feature of it is that it is supposedly too old to have NFC compatibility, so it doesn’t accept debit cards.
At least they’re trying some of that stuff out in some regions in some franchises.
Here in Danmark we have “Rejsekort”, which is a nationwide system, like Presto or OV chipkaart.
It is simpler in nations are aren't so large as Canada or its provinces. The Netherlands is only about 330 km across, which is just three times the width of the Greater Toronto Area.
You forgot to mention, we actually have to BUY the card for $20. Of the $20, $10 goes towards Presto and you get $10 towards your ride credits. Under the old MetroPass. When we bought a card, we were buying the fares and not the physical card. If were were on a subscription, then each month towards the end of the month we'd find our next months card in the mail. But we didn't have to pay for the card separately from the fare we were purchasing. So PRESTO is already ripping us off for the $10 fee they claim was to setup/activate our card on their network. Even if you don't use a physical card and do it through your Android phone, then there is still a $10 fee and a minimum $20 purchase to start. Each month you can set your APP to autoload $20, $50 or $100.
For a system that was supposed to cover all of the GTA... like why bother coining the acronym GTA if the fare for Toronto is all the same, but the moment we go outside of Toronto municipal borders we have to pay extra to move into the other area included in the GTA designation. For travel from bus to subway to streetcar in a single ride, one could without extra pay as it is considered a transfer and or their leeway free ride of a meagre 2hr window to let us travel as much as we want. But the moment we transfer into a line outside of the municipal borders we're charged that new municipals fare. Travelling in a single journey inside that new municipality from vehicle to vehicle is a transfer but transferring back into the TTC is now a new fare again...
Also about the autoload system where we attach a bank account or credit card to our account and when it goes below an amount we set it will auto deduct the preset amount we selected from our payment method. But did you know that if you make no transactions within a 30 day period, then funds are transfered back to us. Meaning if you just happened to have your card loaded and leave on vacation or something where you won't be in the Presto system for 30+ days, funds will be reversed. Meaning the moment you get back and need to tap, there won't be any funds available and the only way around that is to manual load using the APP or a physical machine for it to continue doing the auto load job. Stupid eh?
In London, TfL is actually trying to get people to use contactless cards instead of an Oyster card. But the problem is they haven't added the ability to add discounts (e.g. age discount) to contactless cards
New York (which licensed TfL's technology for the new OMNY system) is working on that issue as well... but at least they finally implemented the weekly fare capping, which is a godsend.
@@gordnyc no more paper magstripe Metrocard? Are my old ones from a holiday official pieces of ephemera now?
@@kaitlyn__L The Metrocards haven't been phased out yet, but OMNY, which uses tap-to-pay with credit cards, Google/Apple Pay (using your phone to tap), or its own card, is much more convenient and financially flexible.
The only thing I like about Presto is because I can use it in Ottawa and when I visit family in Toronto without needing two separate fare cards. But Metrolinx needs to follow U.S. systems where Presto would get added to smartphone wallets. I want to add my Presto to Apple Wallet so I can just tap my phone(or better yet, tap my Watch already out on my wrist and not dig out my wallet or phone) to tap on my fare. They say they're working on it but it's been years and he fact they haven't rolled this out yet is ridiculous.
I don't know if it's the same for Presto but the Myki smart card system used in Melbourne Australia (which seems pretty similar to Presto) also hasn't added support for Apple Wallet despite it working on Android. This is apparently because the entire system would have to be changed in order to fulfill Apple's requirements, and fees would also have to be higher to pay Apple a cut of all transactions.
Why does everything have to be about America?
OPUS vs Presto will become an issue when Ottawa and Gatineau eventually connect their tram lines. The two entities responsible for each should frankly be planning for that inevitability now just to avoid any issues on top of the existing ones from tourism and business trips.
Gatineau uses Multi card, not the OPUS card that is used in Montreal and Quebec City. But I see what you are talking about.
@@edonga2377 OPUS works with Gatineau's system due to the provincial law that requires all such systems in the province to be compatible with OPUS
@@ZontarDow I live in Montreal and this is the first time hearing this. Sherbrooke, Trois-Rivières and Saguenay all use the same technology from Gatineau's STO, but there is no mention that it would be compatible with other cities. Could you show me a link about compatibility?
@@edonga2377 CZcams doesn't allow links off site due to the spam bots
I do not about this "QC-wide OPUS" requirement.....but OC/STO farecards are already interoperable (at least for *reading* ); STO was one of the first agencies in Canada to have smartcards; early 2000s.
Further direct integration would probably be *even more* politically and functionally unfathomable (than ON+ON) across *provincial borders* however.
You touched on it a bit in the video, but my Presto dream is for some kind of eventual unified consistent methodology for tapping across the various Presto-enabled transit systems. For example, the fact that the TTC is single tap and GO is double tap (tap on and tap off) can get a bit tricky to mentally juggle sometimes when hopping between transit systems in a single trip. I'm not sure what that solution would look like, but I'm sure _some_ kind of consistency should be possible, in theory
The problem is that each system is its own entity with its own scope and policies. TTC has Prix fixe and timed transfers, because its area is dense. YRT has two zones because it has a considerable sprawl. GO has an entire region to cover so it needs to have distance fares. Trying to force one methodology on all of the transit systems in the network would be bad for everyone.
@@sblack53 Yeah, you make a good point. Maybe in the far off future the different entities might be able to unify or something, but I know that's very unlikely
@@sblack53 I don't think thats the case, we can figure out a system that works alright with every agency and I think having that is a lot better than a confusing multiagency approach that might be better on an agency to agency basis. This probably comes along with having such a balkanized organizational structure.
@@RMTransit like, maybe there’s a case for standardization among local agencies, but regional services are currently too expensive at their baseline to have their zones and fare structures downloaded onto local services as-is without a politically infeasible merger of every transit agency in Southern Ontario.
It should just be tap on and off regardless of system as it is in Paris and Tokyo.
This is a bit off topic for this video but would you consider making a video about how Halifax is planning to substitute ferries for traditional rapid transit(ie trains)? I think its a potentially interesting topic but i haven't seen anyone talk about it
One thing that is very useful is autoload. That said, since your payments aren't capped at say the monthly pass level, I can totally see why it doesn't work for everyone. Honestly, the Presto rollout feels like it was designed by a toddler.
Oh god, I was just talking about how we must implement Presto last week. Thank you for confirming my assumptions.
You don’t need an android phone to instantly load your card, iPhone app has had this for quite some time now
Well there you go! Still, having to get out the phone isn't great!
How did u comment 1 day ago😮🤔
@@awesomeman116a was this one of his videos that randomly disappeared and had to be re-uploaded?
@@markvogel5872 maybe
@@awesomeman116a probably early access for patrons on patreon
I like the idea of an electronic postal van. People have talked about message passing to oncoming traffic about an obstruction that has been passed further upstream.
Mexico City recently started using contactless credit card and phone payments. Pretty slick.
Metro Vancouverite here, with a disability pass on her Compass card. I'm sure you've covered it extensively, but Compass was a slow-motion disaster here, as is nearly everything the transit side of TransLink does. (Whose bright idea was to make a single body responsible for roads *and* transit?!)
The last time I was in Toronto was early in Presto's rollout and it wasn't usable for a visitor. I've used cards in other cities (Compass, Opal, Oyster). Done right, they're slick. People in Vancouver couldn't figure out how to tap their cards when they got off buses so they made all buses a single fare. People in Sydney don't seem to have any issue with this. 🤔
I've just recently gone back to using public transit more often. Worked downtown Toronto when the original presto rollout began. I am impressed with how built out it is nowadays, but it has been a decade. I think my only real issue with it is that I, at the very least, cannot have the presto card in my phones wallet. It seems like a fairly basic thing to have these days. Hopefully soon though.
You can go pretty much anywhere in England with a contactless Visa or Mastercard. And as my journey to work crosses three different regions, and for the initial bus journey, I have the option of using a bus from a fourth neighbouring region, that is very convenient. I just use Apple Pay and it sorts out daily / weekly price capping as a substitute for season tickets behind the scenes.
I just want to be able to tap my iPhone or Apple Watch with native iOS / Apple transit pass support.
Also, international folks should be able to just tap their credit cards, or buy a week pass for Toronto or better yet, Ontario. Ex. Take a trip to Niagara Falls from anywhere downtown Toronto.
Or buy and load up a card without having to attach it to an address.
Barcelona is now implementing a similar thing, but it will theoretically go so much further: paying with your PVC ticket or with your android phone, compatibility with bike services and all forms of bus ad rail through Catalonia, you will no longer pay based on fare zones but rather on kilometers and frequency of usage, and you will have personalized discounts based on rent, age, etc...
So awesome if they're able to do it correctly :)
Apparently, the Presto card is from the same manufacturer for Oyster and OV Chipkaart. As for the temporary paper tickets, the Netherlands has better advantage. Besides your temporary paper ticket is used for the train, it also allows to use that ticket for the bus.
What at interesting approach, here in Santiago we have the "Bip!" that we can use it to pay the commute by Transantiago/RED buses, the metro and the commuter rail service "Tren Central Alameda-Nos", and that transit card is very simple to use, just reload with money at the totem or on the ticket booth located in all the metro Stations and then pay at the gates or turnstiles located in the mezanine level, in buses there are some with turnstiles at the front door and other ones with only the machine that read the transit card. Now talking about infrastructure around the "Bip!" is the same technology since 2007 but the machine that read the transit card and the turnstiles at the subway and buses have been renovated throughout the years and now they can read QR codes that discount the fare automatically from your bank account. For me i still using the "Bip!" transit card
I have a Bip card! It's a nice system, Toronto's problem is so many agencies and different pieces of infrastructure!
You are so right! If the bike share used Presto I would use it so much more often than I do now. Great idea, I hope its implemented some day!
Hey, I have a video suggestion that could be interesting! Like in this video it would be about a fare payment system, more specifically that of Switzerland. With the national railway app we can plan trips nationwide and it even displays the cost, transfers, platforms, train composition (i.e where are the 2nd class cars located, in which car can I store my bike...). We can even pay for the fare in advance right in the app (since the ticket is valid all day but can be used only once). The system has pros and cons (like obscure fare calculation) that could be interesting to study!
Agreed, it would make it a good sale pitch for international visitors. As fellow travelers I love buying one transit fair card for 1 country visiting vaild to for all cities.
On the paper tickets with circuitry, that's really really weird. In Ottawa we have single-use paper tickets from ticket machines but they have a QR code printed.
A comparison between various fare cards internationally might be a good video.
Australian experience:
Sydney went a long way towards adopting a fare card by local outfit ERG, including installing readers in some smaller stations, then junked it and imported London's Oyster holus-bolus except without fare-zones.
Melbourne spent the equivalent of 10 years worth of fare revenue developing the MyKi system from scratch, including paying for then junking 300 temporary card issuing machines intended to be on-board trams.
I love the fact that cities with simple fare systems like Berlin don't need fancy-pants expensive ticketing systems
All these little confusing things that are especially a pain for tourists...But well you have these little obsticles in most cities in one way or another.
Except in London, UK. Where you can just use any contactless debit/credit card (not just UK cards, any contactless cards).
In contrast, I can't pay for the ferry ride to and from Toronto Islands using a number of European debit cards. The site just doesn't understand how multi-factor authentication works. I've had to beg my Canadian friends to pay for me.
But it need not be this way!
@@ChasmChaos I have never been to London yet. I know the system sounds easy, but idk how easy it really is. Probably the easiest is in Luxembourg, because transit is free there haha.
@@stroll-and-roll London UK has zone pricing so you have to Tap at the start of your ride and the End for The Underground. Tap once for buses and trams
@@stroll-and-roll Tap your card on the reader, wait approx 0.5s for it to beep. Enter the station / bus. If it is a rail service, do the same when you leave.
I also hate how the Toronto bike share is limited to 30 minutes before charging you a dollar a minute over. Montreal's BIXI is simply charge by how many minutes you use, which is waaaay better. No need to plan your trip to be exact 30 minutes or less...
Ottawa has been asked to look at the cost of "free" public transport. Presto adds value in that you can see where people get one and where they get off so you can better design the system.
What might be interesting is to look at what costs are involved.
First the cost of collecting fares, second the marginal cost of extra passengers should more people travel by public transit. Third reduced air pollution, fourth the poverty trap effect if we give some low income riders reduced fares. Cost of admin for reduced fares. Are there benefits to the residents of the city as a whole? If so what are they?
I'm sure there are more.
Sounds like the Leapcard in Ireland, although it can be used not just in Dublin but also on regional city bus services and also commuter rail in Cork (Republic of Ireland's second city). Online credit loading needs to be validated at a ticket machine/validator but there is an Android App that works with NFC phones for realtime credit update.
learning i couldn't use my presto card to get out a bike share was pretty disapointing and it is honestly wild that you can't! don't like it. just,,,, let me use it for bike share!!
That’s likely more on the bike share operator than Metrolinx. I’m sure Metrolinx would love to add more value to Presto, but that requires buy-in from others that may be too greedy to want to play ball.
@@sblack53 I don't think its so similar because I think Presto is quite expensive, but these are issues the public shouldn't have to bear the issues from.
I recently travelled in Sydney as a tourist and I love how easy the ticketing system was. I didn't have to buy a ticket or opal card I could simply just tap my debit card at the fare gates to enter and exit the train station and I think it works on buses too. More systems around the world would benefit from card payment been available as it makes using public transport so much easier and accessible as pretty much everyone has a debit card and saves having to buy tickets and load a card at a machine or shop etc.
Here in Germany, we've had integrated region-wide fare systems for a while, and are (as I understand it) slowly working on making that state-wide, and hopefully then nation-wide. As for card systems, for a number of years, this city and a few others have used one with an eye on making it nationwide, but it seems the main hurdle has been implementing the backend automatic money transfer between providers. I'm not sure how that is going. Of course, as long as that doesn't work, new regions are reluctant to implement it, and as long as few regions implement it ...
Also, there seem to be a number of different methods of using the cards for this (as I understand it, they use NFC, but they also have a bar code). Here in the city, it's tap-in every time you enter a bus and effectively flat fare; I know that another place uses tap-in/tap-out, and there might even be more versions. Not exactly good. I don't know about other places, but here you can either pay a flat per-month tariff, or else you can buy per use (which is my current mode, as I only use it slightly more than twice a week at the moment), in which case the system automatically selects the cheapest fare option (which, last I looked, means single trips up to I think three, and then a day card because that's cheaper than four trips). In my case, I get an email every month listing my trips and the cost, which is automatically deducted from my bank account. I can choose the email with or without the listing in case I've problems with other people looking at my emails. I don't remember if there's also a paper mail option ... unlikely, as that would be a major cost, but not impossible. Oh, and the card can also be used in several shops for discounts ... never one I'm interested in, though. Also usable for some other transport options ... have to look that up, just a moment. Oh yes, car parking, car-sharing (that is, short-time car rentals, cars - I think - provided by the city), charging at city-provided charging stations, and parking bicycles in the bicycle garage at the train stations.
Though I suspect that long-term, what will really win out are apps. Which is too bad - those cards can't run down their battery, having none, to begin with.
Meanwhile Berlin has a huge public transit usage, only three fare-zones, of which a ticket always pays for two (Berlin is a large city) or all three so there's no confusion. Oh and we don't have stupid and hostile fare-gates.
I think fare-gates barely provide any benefit, if any at all, but deter people from using public transit. I for one wouldn't feel welcome if I first have to proof my payment before being allowed to even enter a station. What about people who seek shelter in the station? Homeless people, but also "street kids" and people who just wanna shelter and hang out a bit? Part of a living city is to repurpose buildings and claiming public spaces as such. Trying to avoid this to form some weird form of "sanitized" capitalism would definitely deter me from paying my (quite expensive) public transit card and would definitely shift me towards buying a car, in which I'd feel more welcome.
The biggest problem with Presto is that, instead of just letting me onto public transit, it charges me money. Everything after that is just nuisance sauce on the grotesquerie cake.
How confusing is the Presto card system for a tourist? That’s something the authorities should think about because if they made it simple and easy to understand for a visitor it should work well for everybody. Obviously it has shortcomings they are taking their time addressing as if it’s not a priority.
For tourists I'd recommend just getting a day pass at a shoppers or the subway station. That'll work on all TTC busses, subway, and streetcars. Like he said they print at a kiosk and you just tap them at the bus or fare gate.
The problem with Presto is for students we gotta pay a adult fare and it costs way too much for us to pay. Post Seocndary students should pay student fares not Adult Fares
I wish that Presto was better. Here in the NCR, I carry two cards: One Presto, one STO card. The Presto card can be used on STO busses and the STO card can be used on OC Transpo. Why not a national system? In this politically-divided country, it's not going to happen, but one card to rule them all would make procurement and maintenance cheaper (until the whole system needs to be replaced en-masse).
La MEcard mauricienne à l'air bien plus fonctionnelle est pratique :) j'espère que Presto va s'améliorer
Have you any thoughts on the OPUS system used in Montréal? I generally like it but the personal terminal which you can acquire to load your card at home is incredibly complicated and - to my amazement - won't accept using any credit card that has a billing address outside Québec.
I just commented on that myself... and they also won't ship the personal terminals outside of Quebec.
I’m so glad that when the Rav-Kav card was introduced in Israel it was nationwide from the get go. Rollout took some time and later it took many incremental improvements to get it where it’s now. But I’m very thankful for what we’ve got now. It’s really simple to get, very simple to reload. You can load any fare you want to it, it can hold any of many discount profiles. You can theoretically load on the card up to 256 different fares. But you can also go simple if you want and just add funds and it will work on all trams, trains, city and intercity buses, underground funiculars, and as of a couple months ago, on cable cars too. When the Metro systems will be ready it will include them too of course. It took a while but in the bigger cities buses just open all doors and you just use the closest one and there are al least 3 card readers on every bus, articulated buses have way more. And som buses have fare machines inside them. I can go on but it’s probably not very interesting…
I like da bloop noise
Nitpick: override has to be pressed BEFORE you tap your card
I lived in Japan for a time and I remember my dad visited me and didn't realize you needed to tap out to exit the train station. Anyway, I learned that day that the gates may close when you don't tap to exit, but they are kind of designed to easily pop open with force. This is probably for emergency exit purposes. I sort of think this would make them a poor choice in NA.
Why isn't there a smartphone app? Most smartphones nowadays have NFC which can be used for tapping just like Apple and Google Pay. The card could also be reloaded and balance checked on the same app. It would save the cost of cards and be way more convenient for users. The app could be used for day, week and monthly passes.
I believe the privacy concern has to do with people that were using cards that had special discounts on them. Example would be an adult using a card loaded with student or child fares. You could see the amount paid ( once tapped) or if you can see a balance left on the card people might feel that someone might steal their card if there's a high balance.
If you pay your fare it should say "paid" not specifically how much you paid but they do this to ensure you're paying the right amount.
I was wondering why it no longer said the balance! Thanks for the info.
Some cities in Asia already accept Visa or Apple Pay tapping to pay transit fare. Since Presto is "owned" by the Ontario Government, I don't think we will see that anytime soon
One thing I definitely appreciate about Presto in Ottawa is that my Presto pass is also accepted on STO in Gatineau, meaning I can use my Presto pass in two provinces (beyond the small handful of OC Transpo stops on the Gatineau (Hull), Quebec side). I'm not sure if this also applies to single-trip fares, though, I've never tried going to Gatineau on STO on one of those months when I don't think I'm going to use my OC Transpo Presto pass enough to justify the cost of the pass and instead just load $10 to $20 as I need it for individual fares.
As much of a minor inconvenience as it is, I don't use autoload as I prefer to minimize the amount of money that automatically gets dinged from my pathetically small bank account each month.
" Presto, it's done - turkey for everyone! "
It's interesting learning about other systems. Perth's system with "smartrider" (great name I know) cards that we use for getting around on our 'suburban' trains, and buses and ferries. The cards utilise tapping on and off at stations. Or if you get a bus to the station, and then a train, it transfers you to the station when you arrive, and then you tag off at the final station, but not the first one. However for one of the few train routes that is intercity, you buy a ticket for that train. Although travelling between cities regially is just not done in WA.
Well, the problem with Toronto (specifically the GTA) is that on top of the main transit authority in the city (TTC) and commuter train system (GO), riders also regularly interact with 10 other regional regional transit authorities, each with their own fare rules. And of course, Presto has to take all those in consideration.
For instance, GO has a tap-in/tap-out because your fare varies with the individual trip you are doing, while the TTC uses a flat fare for (almost) all their with 2h free transfers to any other TTC bus/train/metro. Then you have daily, weekly and monthly passes as well as some other obscure ones (like conventions, low income, etc.) that you can also upload to your card, plus a bunch of completely arbitrary discounts for commuters crossing transit systems all negotiated individually between the different transit authorities.
And don't forget to throw age specific discounts that apply to each individual system or loyalty programs that some of those have that give you progressive fare discounts based on the number of trips you take every month.
In short, is a ** mess and nothing is likely to change until there is some sort of agreement standardizing the different fare rules.
@@Imman1s That sounds both fascinating and extremely irritating to use.
@@silk1435 Well, bear in mind I was explaining the complexity for the payment system. For the actual user frankly is not bad at all; you simply tap on the card and it deducts whatever applies to you at that moment.
During the initial rollout it was a PITA; buses and trams often didn't have a Presto terminal and the same happened for a while to with subway stations. By now, is available in all other regional transit systems and you can use it virtually everywhere.
There are still some issues, like needing to tap out on lines with fare zone changes, some places not having enough charging terminals, some annoying gates here and the lack of support for phone NFC or other payment systems, but overall it beats the previous system where you had use proprietary tokens, pay in cash or have the passes and transfers as receipts/paper cards, with no discounts when switching between independent systems.
@@Imman1s OK, I remind my previous comment, that sounds overall pretty simple to use. And hopefully it improves even more in the near to intermediate future.
Most people in my neighbourhood enter buses at the rear doors when it's busy and don't tap (free ride).
There is no good reason Presto can take this long with incremental improvements when street stalls in China run by grandmothers use QR codes for payment...there should already be tap to pay credit card payments on all transit by now.
Would love to see a video of the Oslo Metro explained!
It should work on the Toronto ferries!
In the Netherlands there is the OV-Chipkaart, which is valid for (rental) bike/scooters, bus, tram, metro, train and ferry. The OV-Chipkaart is valid throughout the Netherlands and at all public transport companies. You pay kilometer, and the kilometer price is between 5-15 cents. Passengers always have to tap in and out so that the system can calculate the kilometers.
But the OV-Chipkaart is already an outdated system. They are currently working on tapping with a smartphone, debit card and credit card. By also tapping with a debit card, it is hoped to attract more travelers who would otherwise never travel and would otherwise have to purchase an OV chip card.
Couldn't have agreed more!
comment two. Transfers in theory it's exactly 90 mins. In practice it's 90 mins when the two readers compare times and since the bus readers times are not synced each day you transfer time can be 85 mins or 95 mins. OCtranspo confirmed this using GPS times some years ago.
The Octopus card in Hong Kong is the best. You can even use it to pay for items at 7 Eleven.
Two issues with Presto in Ottawa: seniors ride free on Sunday and Wednesday but if you tap your card on those days Presto charges the fare then you have the hassle of contacting them to put the money back on your card. Secondly it’s not integrated with Paratranspo. I’m told this is because it’s too expensive to equip the vehicles with card readers. So instead of using one system and your Presto balance you have to load a separate Parapurse online so Transpo can debit your account ‘purse’ before you take your trip.
Oc transpo themselves say to not tap presto cards on Wednesday except for sto transfers
@@sahonsarma8384 what if the driver insists? No tap no ride! Especially since they seem to want card taps to determine ridership
@@qwincyq6412 Seniors need to show proof of age when on busses and they need to use a presto card with a seniors discount on the otrain
@@sahonsarma8384 I’ve never been asked to show proof of age on a bus or train
@@qwincyq6412 maybe if there is doubt with age but usually it's fine
Presto card as reference octopus card (a card payment system in Hong Kong) model to build up the user bases
The STIB/MIVB (Brussels) has solved the mobile payment issue by installing separate readers for contactless payment (credit card or phone/apple watch).
This way black readers are for contactless payment and traditional red readers are for paper tickets and MOBIB (smart fare card) payment. It's not the best solution but it's still better than nothing and it does avoid the use of an overly complicated fare system.
However contactless payment only works on the STIB/MIVB network and doesn't work on TEC and De Lijn buses and the S-Train.
This video doesn't appear to have any sound for me. Has anyone else encountered this problem?
Nvm its now working
Almost as confusing/inefficient as the system in place where I live in Edinburgh, Scotland. If you have a weekly/monthly/4-week/annual pass for bus/tram, you need a ‘Ridacard’. If you want to just load a whole load of single tickets, you need a different ‘Citysmart’ card. Neither of which use the ITSO standard that most of the rest of the country uses meaning you can’t use a common card across bus, tram, rail and subway throughout Scotland if you use transit in the capital city (you can use a common card for the bus, subway and rail in most of the rest of the country). You can’t get the Ridacard online, you have to go to one of 3 shops. Whilst you can get a pre-loaded Citysmart card online, you can’t add to it online and have to top up either on a bus, one of the three shops or at a park and ride.
Then you have m-tickets through an app for singles/day tickets for bus/tram but they expire within a short time frame so if your bus breaks down, you have to pay again to get on the replacement.
Additionally, there is contactless where you can tap your debit card and it caps it at the the best day or week price. However, this only works on the bus, not the tram even though there is a common fare structure and the one day ticket is valid on both modes.
So frustrating!
I don’t know why it seems so surprising to have a province wide fare card. We do in Victoria, Australia called Myki. It covers ‘most’ of the state on trains, trams and buses in the capital and most major provincial centres. It’s not perfect but it works for me.
Yes I have never had a problem with Myki although a lot of people complained about it.
They should emboss or print the expiry date on the Myki card, so you know when it needs to be renewed.
Also it goes into hibernation when it hasn't been used for sometime (a few months?) It has to be reactivated, which is annoying.
We can load the amount into Presto with App on iPhones also.
Giant fine for skipping a fare? In Auckland, if you forget to tap out, you'll get double-charged. So if you forget to tap out when transferring, you lose your transfer headway and it forces a new journey and charges you for the first leg.
The two-tap presto mode is dumb because if you forget the tap-off, it assumes you went all the way to the end when it should give you the benefit of the doubt and charge your average trip.
Forgetting to tap off on an Appleby-Union trip becomes Appleby-Oshawa which is over double the fare, and forgetting to tap off the return trip becomes Union-Niagara even if no trip to Niagara is possible at that time
San Diego Compass Card didn't even have fare capping, the new Pronto card does.
I remember one time I forget to tap off on go train and it charge me a lot... I kinda wish they would just add gates like subways...
You can also Load Presto at select Loblaws Stores
Stockholm just lets you use a regular credit/debit card at the toll gates. Makes it really easy to use transit for non-regular riders.
Do the fares increase to cover the credit card fees?
Same as London. It’s so easy for tourists, cuz you don’t have to sit at a ticket machine and try to figure out how to buy a ticket or card. Just tap with any card or Apple/Google pay!
Thats exactly what open payment is!
@@RMTransit any plans on doing a video about this? In particular I'm curious about card fees and transit accessibility. I know in China often it's actually difficult for foreigners to pay for transit due to the ubiquity of wepay and alipay, octopus style cards are kind of going the way of the dodo. Last time I was there there would be like 1-2 fare card gates and the rest all wepay.
the iOS app now does direct loading of the card with the built in NFC
A smart card/app is great but integrated fairs are more important IMO.
I live in Barcelona where only now we have a smart card, which is still limited to two types of fares (monthly and youth) and only available on in metropolitan zone but we have integrated fares for year.
Originally I'm from Israel such a card was introduced in 2006 (but it took a long time for it to actually work on all transport means).
It's a chipped card so, like on the Presto, data is updated only when the card is in contact with a reader. You can top it up in countless convenient stores, ATM's and machines at stations. You can also add funds via the website, including for someone else's card (like a kid's card) that can be updated at a top up point.
There is also an anonymous card, for basic plans (funds, daily or weekly cards) and a semi anonymous card (that requires in person request) - in both cases all info will be saved only on the card (so if you loose it you loose any funds or plans on it) but your info won't be available to the operators. This might not be important for you but not everyone wants the info on all their traveling on an unknown server.
There are also apps but you need to scan a QR code on the bus (or get a QR code at the station, after finding your location) for the train/light rail. You're billed at the end of the month and you'll automatically pay the lowest rates (there is a daily max rate and a discounts if if you pay more than certain monthly amounts).
Tis card is nation wide but Israel is small - the size of New Jersey
This is def a case where I think both can and should be done
Almost positive the TTC fare gates are open payment compatible. it was something TTC talked about as they were being installed.
Myki uses the tap on and off method in Melbourne
May I ask you do a video on our line in florida? Brightline is a new high speed rail in the states after all
Just use the Stockholm method, add contactless/mobile payment readers across the network, then design a new card that can use the contactless/mobile readers and finally after a few years phase out the old system.
Hamilton Bike Share as well! Would be great to hop off Go Train, then hop on Hamilton Bike Share with a Presto payment to get to the planned LRT route!
Presto Monthly passes on auto renew.
Presto normally puts through renewals a day or two before the end of the month but it states they can go through seven days before the end of the month. Old age pensions and many monthly pay cheques etc are paid three business days before the end of the month or after the Presto auto renewal date.
After the first renewal couldn't the auto renew be put through on the last business day of the month? I assume the card can be cancelled by presto if funds are not available.
3:58 - you can immediately load your card from iPhone as well.
I wish I could use my phone with the presto system it would be super nice
Comment one on Presto in Ottawa the display showing how much is left on the buses is suitable for a twenty year old. For the more elderly say 65+ the numbers are too small without glasses.
Presto does allow you to load from iOS now, though it might be a beta app technically. Fairly sure it's open beta though, it works fairly well