Selmer Paris Mark VI Vs. Reference 54
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- Jim and George take a look at the differences between the iconic Selmer Paris Mark VI & Selmer's modern tribute to this sax, the Reference 54.
George is using a Selmer S80 F Mouthpiece and Medium La Voz Reed.
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Great review Jim and George! It’s so interesting to see the two saxes side by side. I enjoyed testing the SBA Tenor vs Ref 36 on my channel too.
When the Reference 54 first came out, my teacher at the time was a Selmer rep. He had his pick of 20 tenors from Selmer. I got a chance to play it and was immediately blown away with how it felt and played.
Very nice horn to play
Lovely playing by George. You can tell he's more comfortable on his own horn. The reference does immediately sound brighter, but the 6 has that "6ness" which is really special. I think Stephen Howard really defines it on his review site what that Selmer sound is. It's the 6 for me.
This would be a great video: Take 5 or more 54s and play them side by side with the same set up to see if there is a difference. Then do the same with a random lot of 5 or more 6s to see what they sound like.
That sounds really expensive LOL
"Do you want to hold them at the same time"
"No"
*Thinks: Good choice"*
If this makes any sense, I think the MK VI speaks more, but the 54 sings more. He has developed much more of common sound character in his own horn, which reflects in the way he played his lines with that horn. The 54 on the other hand was like a familiar cousin to the sound of the MK VI, but just enough ignorance of the way to play it how he likes in the mix that it was again reflected in his sound.
I would love to see a reference 54 vs reference 36 tenor comparison!
I have ref 54 and I thought the Yamaha 82ZII would be better. What was I thinking? Anyway I returned the 82ZII and now appreciate the 54 the more I play it. Also I don’t like the teardrop front keys as I was so used to the 54. The more I play the 54 the more I’m settling in and really loving the feedback I get when I play.
This is the video I've been waiting for.
Any day I love the sound of the 54
I'd like to hear the Mark VI alto compared to a Bronze Yanagisawa.
I just got a new AW02 today. But I have never played a Mark VI.
One of the biggest changes that has happened since the Mark VI is that horns are built to be more consistent now. I had a bad Mark VI, and didn't know it at the time. Don't assume that because it's a Mark VI that it's a great horn. I've been on Yamaha for 40 years, and never looked back!
So true. Back about 20 years ago I had both a mark vi alto and tenor. The tenor was amazing, action like butter, easy to blow and tone was that perfectly balanced 6 tenor tone of strong core but warmth and glow around it. The alto was practically worthless, the resistance was so hard I struggled to get a decent tone out of it, constantly sounding thin with a ton of airiness. I tried tuning it, full overhaul, the works, and nothing worked. On advice from my tech (who was excellent and also a pro player himself) I had him cryo treat it, hoping that would loosen it up. It didn’t. I finally got rid of it and bought a Series II alto and also an SML Gold Medal alto in the sweet spot years that had all of the then-innovative features, both phenomenal horns. So weird how different the 6 tenor was from the 6 alto… definitely proved the case many have made re: the huge inconsistencies in the quality and playing of those horns …
They both sound great. In this example I lean towards the 54 because I just got one. Hahaaaha. The thing is with 6s they are all different. I had a five digit that was like absolutely incredible. When you hear players like Lou Donaldson you know that the horn makes a huge difference because you can hear that same sound. (I assume Lou had 5 digit because it sounded so much like mine). It was head and shoulders above anything else. It has a steely sold core sound that I have never felt on any other horn. Then there are all the other 6s that are just really good. The 54 is different but has that same core beauty and expressiveness in the sound. Like Wayne shorter said some new horns lock you into that "nanigoat' autotuner like sound (yamaha?) but the selmer lets you express and touch the audience more. I love yamaha's too but I think people know what I mean. So bottom line there are a smaller number of super 6s out there otherwise the 54 stacks up well against the normal/average 6 in terms of artistic expression. You are blessed to have the opportunity to own or play either!
Thanks for the demo and sharing. It's so wonderful.
Need to compare the Ref 54 to a '54 Mark VI for a better comparison. Case in point, I've owned 2 1954 Mark VIs, one I've had for more than 25 years. I've tried two Reference 54s, and the tone is almost identical to my Mark VI, except the Reference has a more consistent tone. Best sounding modern horn to my ears. You can compare a '71 Mark VI to a '54 Mark VI and the sound will be different, and VIs sound so variable over the years that it's hard to come to a broadbrush conclusion.
Thank you both. Both great horns but you can’t beat the sound of a Mark 6 !
God bless you both. Bill. Uk
I have a 1968 Mk6 and it plays beautifully I have seen on several sites some negative comments about Mk6s and I tend to think these are from people who have never owned one .. trying to make themselves feel better about not being able to own one 😂😂 I have thought about trading mine in for a new horn several times .. but how can I possibly know if the new horn would stand the test of time. I think my kids will be selling mine after I’m dead and gone !!
Glad you found the horn for you man. It's a very personal thing. I'm in the happy (and fortunate) position of being able to afford a Mark Vi without difficulty but don't want to - I've never got on with Selmers, old and new, and I have owned a couple. I've played a handful of VIs but just didn't like that big slab of mid-range or the ergos. It's completely personal though. It's a generalisation to discount people who don't like VIs as trying to make themselves feel good because they can't afford it (especially when that plainly isn't true.)
Mark Lang
My friend it was a joke ! Did you not see the laughing faces. As I say I have looked at other horns over the years but mine does everything I need it to do. I have only owned a couple of altos. I bought a cheap thing when I decided to learn moved onto a vintage Conn. and the Mk6 came up for sale and I snapped it up played it ever since. There probably are better horns although I have to say hard to find. There are a couple of horns I like the look of but wonder what the longevity of some of the newer will be
Nice to hear such a distinct difference. After 38 years with my 1968 VI the 54 just sounds tinny to me (which is just a pejorative way of saying brighter - sorry!) I understand all reasons why Mk VI isn't as good as everyone thinks - but I have never tried a horn I would change for. May be about the subtlety of subtone possible on the VI
Both horns have a sweetness to them. There was a difference to them for sure. You can tell George has a great deal of time behind the Mark 6 and not much experience with the 54. The Reference is a fine modern horn and most likely, will get better with time.
Interested that you still prefer your Yani A901, Jim. That was my first pro horn, it was delicate and pure, but I always felt it lacked oomph. So I took a risky punt on a 1972 MkVI, untried, and I just LOVE it! There's that wonderful graininess to the sound, like smooth Devon cream fudge. The Ref 54 hasn't got that.
George sounds amazing on that Ref54!
Kenny G's influence kills any tone.
Jakjajajaaaa true!! Kills any test too
I'm gonna pretend like you didn't say something completely idiotic.
You will never play as good as Kenny G
I'm currently bidding on a Buescher 400 bari sax on ebay. I really want a bari sax, but I cant spend more than $1200 on it. Any suggestions on the highest price I should go on it? I'm not looking for the best, top of the line bari sax, I just want a bari sax to play. What could you tell me about it?
Omg I wanted this so much!
I'd love to see a comparison of some of the vintage Conns with some newer instruments. I just got a New Wonder II 166xxx alto a few weeks ago and I'm loving it. It's far more free blowing than any horn I've ever tried. Would love to hear your thoughts on the old Conns
Was just saying, I have a 1923 Conn tenor, and with the right mouthpiece, it just roars... makes this huge, stunning, enormous tone. But the keywork feels like a medieval torture device compared to even an old Mk VI. I can play beautiful slow melodies with it, but it is completely unsuitable for anything remotely technical.
I prefer conn over selmer by far. I own a lady face and I couldn’t be happier
Great video guys. Love the Mk6 story too. I'll pass on my '36 Aristocrat alto and '46 Holton 241 tenor to my son; hope he plays them better than me!
They both sound different to my ears straight away listening on monitor headphones. The Reference 54 in the first few notes sounded like a modern sax. It has the modern brightness, with a silky sound in the lower frequencies and it sounded a bit more focused to me. The Mark VI was more dense and fuller and warmer sounding.
I like that Mark VI, it sounded powerful and sounds like a real saxophone. I notice that R 54 sang better or has better intonation, I could identify the tone quicker, However, it’s is too weak for me, no projection and sounds bland. Our of many R 54s, I’ve only heard one that was ok so I’ve pretty much removed it from my wish list.
Mark Vl sounds warmer to my ear, more like “singing” if you know what I mean. I guess as it is his own sax it could help him to get the best of the instrument.
This will be an interesting comparison.
Parabéns pelo vídeo. Show lindo demais 👏👏 parabéns
Sax players crack me up (being one I understand my own foibles), we are such tech junkies! Needing know how something plays vs something else (sax, neck, lig, mouthpiece, reed) and what everyone else is playing on. It's always great to get opinions but you will sound like you no matter what! Buy what you like and makes you comfy!
I'm a guy who barely knows anything about cars, but damn I love researching Saxophone gear. It's amazing how many different and often conflicting opinions you can find on the same horn/MP/reed/ligature.
@@Danox94 It's dizzying! But no matter you buy you will always and only ever sound like you.
@@SomeGuyOnSax It's not about the gear, more about what you feel comfortable with right?
Bingo!
Couldn’t agree with you more, I’m a selmer guy cause they are great horns just like all it’s rivals. The reason I choose selmer is the fact that they hold value on a resale vs the others, other than that the sound comes from the player.
Reference 54 has a darker sound to my ears, and is sweeter than the mark vi
Send to me it's about the playability. That one can be made to sound like the other. Assuming the 54 isn't brand new. I wondered if a vintage sax wouldn't have a sound any modern version could never have because one is 60 years older.
i have a vintage conn tenor that has a very warm sound
it’s kinda falling apart (paid $300)I think y would serve me better to find a new horn i like instead of getting this one rebuilt
As a player I have owned 6 MK VI altos and 9 MK VI tenors .as a repair tech I have set up at least a dozen ref 54 altos and tenors and of course played them.the 54,s are good horns but even though the VI,s require more of you in certain ways I feel they offer you a more complex and flexible sound. The VI,s require a good neck fitting and set up to know how they play. As a decades long Vi player, on alto i feel my serie III is closer to a VI than serie II or 54. Serie II does play a little bigger and louder . I have worked a couple time on Alto reed,s (Bob Seger Band) silver serie III tenor and it plays lights out. I dont believe in classical horn vs jazz horn. I may even buy a serie III tenor since I can get one for 1/2 the price I can get for my 54k sba. Only cause I need$
whats the song his playing on the reference 54 btw
Not a fair comparison. Every sax is different and you should sound better on the one you play every day, compared to a different one.
Great horns!
for me the mark 6 has the edge with that full sound and that would be my preference to play.
The 54 sounded a bit thinner that the MKVI.
There will never be another VI ...
Mark iv
Why not MKVI 1958?
I think that both horns sound beautiful, but each in their own slightly different ways. The VI sounded much more darker and rich in the lower resonance and tonal thickness while the Ref 54 had a much lighter brighter sound. It felt as if George could blow freer and therefore didn't have to force the sound out. They both played even across the range and would fit well in to many applications be it Jazz or Classical. I have a Series II and love it! It can be rich and mellow on ballads and loud and brackish when playing funk or bop! Good stuff!
LOVELY MUSIC ALWAYS ON SAX.UK
Mark VI !!!
The 54 has a more consistent and refined sound overall. Yes, VI's sound great and all, but they are NOT as refined and of the same quality that brand new, professional horns today have. Put it into perspective - even Coltrane had the newest and best horn out there during his time. He bought his Mark VI as soon as it came out. There's no reason for a saxophonist to romanticize a Mark VI today. The instrument evolved from its conception in the mid 1800's up until settling into what it is today around 1980-1990.
I played on a Low A VI for a few years and hated the intonation issues it had in the upper register. High F was only in tune if I held open ONLY the palm F key. Alternate front F was 35 cents sharp. Voicing down the palm register gets old quick - that horn taught me that there is absolutely no advantage to a vintage horn (in fact, somewhat of a disadvantage).
I owned a Mk VI for years, eventually upgraded to a Yamaha 62. But a Keilwerth SX90 blows both of them away, in my opinion. Are they all good horns? Yes, I think so. At that level, none of them sound "bad." The modern horns are just so much easier and more comfortable to play, and the intonation is better. But compared to my '23 Conn, the Mk VI is like a Cadillac... it's all relative.
I agree. I just today replaced my King Super 20 with a Yanagisawa AW02. I need to get used to the new sax, but it is much easier to play, and the intonation is much better. My Super 20 was overhauled last year, so it isn't an old beat up sax. Newer saxs are just made better.
Common sense at last! The reason why VIs are romanticised is because the greats from the 5os and 60s played them and the generation afterward wanted to play what their hero's were playing. You tend to get such an aggressive response from Vi players who seem to feel that they must tear down all modern horns, probably to justify to themself why they spent so much moolah on a second hand hand horn. You tend to get a similar reaction from devotees of a certain fruity brand of consumer electronics..
@@marklang7486 Never thought of comparing VI players to uppity Apple supremacy morons. I like it!
@@ldever3 I switched from a 253xxx Low A to a copy of a Yanagisawa B901. The difference and ease of playing between the two horns is astonishing.
Gostaria de fazer uma parceria com vcs?? Queria colocar vídeos seus no meu canal.. tenho um canal CZcams também. Chama variedades do Mestre...
I think its great to compare the hands on feel and sound well done guys , but the difference in any instrument is your own emotional personal connection . Keep it real, keep it emotional Happy Days .
Thanks guys for doing these comparisons and all the informative videos. I wish you would have played an 8 bar melody at a metronome setting of quarter note=48. And the same melody in at least
two different octaves. And with and without vibrato. Just a request not a complaint!
One comment, I'm not sure if the mark vi tunes sharper in the upper register than the reference, but I think the comparison would be a little more fair if the saxes were tuned closer together.
I have a Yamaha YAS-62 Purple Logo , a Yanagisawa AWO2 UL and I have a Ref. 54 Flamingo no high F key . All three excellent horns BUT , my only 2 complaints with the Ref.54 is .... the front high F pearl key . It is TOO MUCH OF A FINGER LEAP to get to it . You can't just roll your finger up to it like the Yany AWO2 UL . My 2nd complaint is the Bis key , although it is domed , is placed too far to the left . Whereas the Yany , which isn't domed and I wish it were , sits almost in line with the B key making it a simple roll of your tip to get to it . The Ref. 54 Bis key is a bit tricky to maneuver . Nice review gentleman .
You don’t want a six . We need to move on from the six . It’s our time now to explore the new line of horns. Or else we will never exceed the six.
I know you old geezer want to keep dear to your six. I can respect that because it’s your era. But us new cats should move on .
Could tell he knew exactly how to make his Mark VI sound like he wanted. The Ref54 just doesn't have the Mark IV voice according to my ears.
SBA beats both
Mark VI is better than reference 54.
Comments nonsense.