Stop Using Wedge Anchors On Car Lifts!
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- čas přidán 9. 03. 2023
- This is why I highly recommend using epoxy (also called chemical) anchors when installing car lifts.
Tags: 2-post lift anchors, 2-post lift installation, car lift installation anchors, wedge anchors vs epoxy anchors, wedge anchors vs chemical anchors - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Just to clear this up:
•I NEVER said you MUST go 15" deep with your anchors. I went that deep because I COULD. If you poured an extra thick beam under your lift, would you still anchor at the standard depth for a standard depth slab??? Not me!
[This space reserved to address any further rediculous comments from members of the CZcams comment crew]
You should have dropped some fine sand down in the hole so that the leaks into the underground would have been prevented.
@@elbuggothat would be a complete waste of time, money, & effort which all are really negligent anyways but there is a zero percent chance of any fluid getting into those holes from a leak since the holes are completely sealed with the epoxy from top to bottom and even the threads of the rods are completely filled and sealed. You could flood the shop with a foot of hydraulic fluid and there will not be a drop of fluid that will get into the holes with that epoxy in there!!
I'm getting ready to put a lift in my shop. When I built it last year I knew I was going to install a lift. When doing the preparation before pouring the concrete, I dug 2 holes 2 feet deep under where I'm going to mount my lift. I think I'll look into your method a lot closer now. Enjoyed the video.
What would you say is the minimum depth to put these in for a 2 post lift
@@wilsonwichman4847 that depends on lift rating and footprint size. I would ask the lift manufacturer.
I worked in the industrial robot industry for many years. Chemical anchors were the only anchors we recommended using. When customers would have issues with their robots coming loose from the floor, inevitably we'd find that they didn't use chemical anchors, or had inadequate concrete.
I have heard this from several different sources including my old neighbor. They all said the dynamic load of a moving robot needed the chemical anchors. What some people don't realize is a 2-post car lift is also a dynamic load when the lifted vehicle starts swaying back and forth.
@@TechnicianRed Good Home depot epoxy works good ,anchors eat into concrete with oscillations ,nothing short poor design for this application .
I have used epoxy I have used wedge and epoxy the Simpson Strong-Tie Bolt is the best thing on the market you can stand a 24 ft 6 by 6 column on top of that and walk away from it and never think twice I've seen epoxy attached to all threads that would pull if you epoxy Strong-Tie that would be pretty badass but I don't see it necessary
I was going to make this exact comment. Our company installed some equipment using Fanuc robots, and they specified the exact type of chemical anchor to use. I think the warranty was voided if any other type of concrete anchor was used.
This...expoy is cheap and it works way better. A lift being used multiple times a day, sometimes with unbalanced loads, seems like a very dynamic environment to me.
I have worked on several sites where post lifts were going to be installed, and the County building department requires removal of existing concrete at a specified size for the lift footprint, excavation, compaction, dowel placement in existing slab, a rebar mat, and then pour back to flush. The depth requirement was based on lift capacity.
Smart
In 1991, I watched a new start up shop attempt to install a 2 post lift in an existing shop floor. The floor buckled and they nearly had a serious accident. The sawed out the floor, excavated, compacted, and poured concrete and installed J-bolts. They calculated the weight of the footings to make certain that the mass was more than double the weight of any vehicle they might service.
Brodzy auto - West Bend, WI.
I have 10" concrete floors and never would I drill 15" or 5" into the sub soil. I suggest He look into some sky hooks and he won't have to drill new holes.😂
That is what was explained to me when I hired the guy to install my lift. It all made sense after the lifts where installed and also there’s a distance in between the anchors from looking at this lift the anchors are too close to each other on the first lift post shown.
I work in the maritime industry and I have used Hilti brand epoxy to install mooring bits that secure ships to a dock. Four 1.5 inch x 20 inch bolts, and it would stand up to anything a ship or tug can throw at it. I've seen ships hit the mooring bits, and the anchor epoxy still doesn't fail.
The funny thing with the Hilti epoxy was it being the color of bubble gum. I used it for industrial work anchoring down huge machines. Great product but slightly over-priced. We would buy so much of it they would supply automatic guns for installing it with every pallet of epoxy.
When you were saying you were going to drill 15” deep I was saying to myself you’d bust through the slab for sure. Most slabs are between 4” and 6” thick unless you are on a beam. If the slab is poured with the expectation of installing heavy equipment the slab designer may have spec’d footings which could be deeper/thicker in those specific areas. But if you don’t install the lift right there, your slab will be thinner. Imagine the cost of a full slab at 15-18” thick! Another point that needs to be made for the viewers is a “Post-tension” or cable tension slab would be a little more scary to install these anchors as cutting a slab cable under tremendous tension can blow out the side of your slab with amazing force. Plus will weaken the slab’s integrity if cut. Not saying your epoxy anchors are a bad idea or even that they aren’t better than the wedge anchors, I just wanted to point out a few cautions here. When drilling of these holes, regardless of the type of anchor, it is best to use a core drilling rig vs. a solid hammer drill to get the most surface area for the anchor. A hammer drill will bust out the bottom of the slab as it nears the bottom surface effectively shortening the vertical length of the hole which the anchors are gripping. Another advantage to using the core drilling set up is you can see the core of concrete (recovered from the hollow bit) for each hole so you know exactly how thick the slab is for each drilled anchor!
Yes there was a thick beam poured in the slab specifically to be used for securing lifts. Very good point on a cable tension slab! That would suck to cut a cable!
You don't find post tension cables in poured cement floors, there's no need. The tension wires are for added strength under load. When the cement starts to bend the cables start to add strength to the panel, slab on grade with a good, compacted base doesn't generally move. Pre-cast cement beams and panels use tension cables and are used in buildings and bridges where they are very common. In most normal floors a wedge anchor will be just as good, but this guy's got the extra thick floors from hell and can get more surface area for the glue to work better. Otherwise, they are a wash for strength in a normal floor. We check our bolts on our lifts once a year, not every week.
@@michaelthomas7898This is flat out wrong! Most poured slabs in Texas have post tension reinforcement. The soil in Texas is constantly moving.
@michaelthomas7898 He may have really thick floors, but apparently he got screwed in the concrete quality.
@@michaelthomas7898 Don't ever say never. Licensed structural engineer here, I have designed post tensioned slabs on grade which have been used for thousands of residential, commercial structures and highways. These slabs have been installed in the Midwest, Texas, the Pacific Northwest and Alaska. We use post tensioning to prevent the concrete from bending, not to take up the load when it bends.
Typically there's a spec for initial install and then a checking torque. Its normally between 100-150 on initial install and somewhere around 80 thereafter. Continuously torquing the wedge anchors to the installed specification will cause them to pull out over time.
Just checked the bendpak install manual (asuming most manufacturers are close to the same, which in my research is true), and the initial torque is 85-95 ft-lbs, and the maintenance torque check is 85-95 ft-lbs While he makes a good point on the epoxy being stronger. He loses all credibility as the dip shit is way over torquing his wedge ankors. Follow his advice at your own risk. Lol
Having anchored down a number of machine tools we always used epoxy concrete with a 50K psi compressive strength. These were punches and sheers and had high vibration. They never moved or loosened. Epoxy is always better than sleeve or wedge anchoring systems.
I've used wedge anchors 80% of the time and like others stated robots, lifts and other machines that have vibration or cycling movements its best to expoxy the anchors in.
But if your concrete slab is thin or low psi specification your pretty much reduced to cutting out the slab and pouring deeper higher psi footers.
A ex coworker built a 3 bay garage and in the last bay he formed and poured a deeper footer for a lift doung the construction.
Thank you! You spelled out all the concerns I had with the wedge anchors that came with my lift. I was constantly tightening them a bit after the first time I noticed they were loose. I think it happens with the weather as well as with use, as my lift is in my home shop, and does not see constant use. Once they loosened up, it bothered the heck out of me. I was absolutely considering making the move to Chemical anchors. I was a bit concerned with the lesser 105 foot pound recommendation. I think I'll be doing this in the spring.
I appreciate the strength of the chemical anchors and in some cases they are needed.
I install car hoists and use wedge anchors most of the time.
The diameter of the wedge bolt can make a difference.
I see some installers using 16mm bolts.
These are below hoist manufacturers standards.
I personally use 20mm wedge bolts. They bite in much better than 16mm and I have not seen them pull out.
I also service hoists and do safety inspections which includes checking the torque of the bolts.
There is often a couple of the bolts on a hoist which will need re torquing. It ususally takes a 1/4 -1/3 of a turn of the nut.
After a couple of years they usually don't pull up at all anymore.
The ones which continue to need retorquing I keep an eye on.
I never cut off the threads as then you don't know how much bolt is in the concrete.
If they don't retorque then I will knock them through the slab and use a single chemical bonded anchor.
The industry standard is to use wedge anchors, so there is no use going an extra mile with a considerable extra expense if what the standard specified works.
If a DIYer isn't sure then by all means use chemical bonding.
By the way I have seen some chemically bonded bolts come loose.
Thank u for expert feedback!!
I admire that you were taking the precaution. Doing nothing is extremely dangerous!
Wow! Never knew 150 ft lbs was the tightening spec on those anchor bolts. I've been working in shops as a tech since 1988 and I can't remember any of my lifts having tight anchor bolts. Most were always loose a few days after snugging them up. And I've been to a lot of shops and used a lot of lifts. 14 actually. Fortunately, I never saw a lift fall. I have seen a couple of techs rack vehicles poorly and have them fall. Thanks for sharing.
It's not! it's - 85-95ft-lbs
I built my slab extra thick for the lift. Used wedge anchors without issues. Still good and tight. Your concrete likely is poor. Had mine tested to 3200 PSI. My slab is almost 16” deep in the area of the posts. Lots of rebar as well. Sure it was expensive but I know it will not pull out or break the concrete.
I'm going to install a 12,000 lb two post lift and my concrete is 5 1/2" thick at a 4500 lb test hopefully I'll be okay, but also thinking of adding extra footing support plates to increase foot print
Sounds a bit thin. Check with your manufacturer as they should have recommended at least 8” thick with 12” desired. Even with distribution plates that’s going to be iffy.
Lots of good information about proper lift maintenance and it's appreciated. I wonder if you had a weak spot in the same area those bad anchors were? Good fix though!
The installation instructions with my Rotary 12K lift specify 110 lb/ft as the installation torque for the 3/4" wedge anchors. They also specify 65 lb/ft for the periodic maintenance torque. If I was re-torquing them to 150 lb/ft every 3 months I wouldn't be surprised it they started to pull out of the concrete. I strongly suggest you verify the specs for your anchors before pulling out the torque wrench and cranking them down to some "if I remember right" torque.
exactly
Wedge anchors have been used for a long time in construction, a lot of large buildings have been built using them. I have never seen wedge anchors loosen up like the ones you show. However you have to use a proper quality anchor such as manufactured by Hilti, Philips, Simpson, etc. Also installation is very critical. If you drill the hole oversize you will have reduced capacity. Epoxy anchors are a more recent invention and have some advantages over wedge anchors for instance if you drill the hole a bit sloppy they can still work but they still must be installed properly. The manufacturers will state the requirements for cleaning out the holes and these must be strictly adhered to. I've seen epoxy anchors intentionally installed with some of the cleaning steps left out and the anchors failed at very low loads. In addition adhesive anchors are not good at sustained tension loads because the epoxy will creep and loosen up with time. There were some large failures at an underground traffic tunnel in Boston because of this. Some of the manufacturers now have adhesives that work better for tension applications. In addition you must use the drill bit diameter that is recommended by the epoxy manufacturer. The latest invention in concrete anchors are the screw anchors. These are very strong and a bit more foolproof to install but can still have a problem if the holes are sloppy, again you must use the exact drill bit diameter recommended by the bolt manufacturer.
"All you do is drill a hole...". You must drill the proper diameter hole with the proper diameter bit. Did you buy the right bit at Home Depot? Did you wallow out the hole larger than necessary? Did you clean the hole properly? Even the cheapest wedge anchors should be performing better than the ones showed in the video so installation is questionable.
Your interpretation of the Simpson load charts is incorrect. They give bond strength values for the anchors and yes a deeper hole achieves more bond strength but that doesn't make the steel bolt any stronger. You might not fail the adhesive at 45,000 pounds but the steel bolt would fail long before that, or the concrete would fail. An adhesive anchor can be stronger than a wedge anchor but not by the amount that you implied. The final strength of an adhesive anchor is the smallest of the epoxy bond strength compared to the concrete breakout strength compared to the steel rod strength.
And another problem with anchor installation- OSHA now requires that you have a dust collection system to even drill the holes for the anchors. All of the main manufacturers sell systems using hollow drill bits and vacuums to do this. The fine dust that comes out of the holes contains very sharp particles that can injure your lungs.
We used to push and drag shit before we had wheels!!
I really enjoyed your video, it was very detailed and now I have a clear vision on what anchors to use when I get my home garage built. As a quality control tech, I'm always researching in seeing what is the best product and or way of going about a task. I'm looking to have an 8 inch slab poured when I get ready to start my garage to make sure I have the thickness to install a two post lift and go with the epoxy instead of the anchors. I believe in being one and done and sometime you can't cut corners and go cheap , especially when it comes to something like installing a major piece of equipment that you're going to have thousands of pounds above you. Once again, thanks for posting that video and I will take heed of that information and use it well.
Something isn't right with your concrete if the wedges pulled up that quickly. They should tighten the first few times you do your monthly/whatever tightening on them, and then stop. That initial tightening is just individual pieces of aggregate or whatever in the concrete getting crushed, until the anchor actually hits truly solid concrete and then it should stop basically forever. This isn't the anchors failing, it's the concrete failing. Noticed when you were comparing the specs, you went for 2000psi concrete -- if that's what your actual concrete is, it probably isn't strong enough for a 2-post installed to factory spec. It's should fine with your overkill anchor depth, but you probably want to keep an eye on your concrete supplier.
Yes, the failure point is the concrete, not the anchors themselves. But when your concrete is weak, a bigger or deeper hole and epoxy will spread the load /force over a larger area.
regardless.... It still need to be fixed...
Thanks for this. I’m going to do it on mine. I’ve had the same issues. My footings under my lift are 24” thick so it will work great. Thanks again sir.
Use 4000 psi concrete 5" or thicker, and use Redhead anchors, you won't have that problem. When I built my shop I dug out an H 10" deep and put down rebar. Poured commercial grade 4000 psi concrete w/ fiber, and after 30 days I installed the lift with 8" Redheads. If something fails, it won't be the concrete or anchors.... Wedge anchors are perfectly fine when used and installed correctly.
i also just poured a slab. I got 4000psi and had them go 12 in in the area for my lifts and 6 in for the rest of the slab reinforced with rebar. I had a lift break concrete and drop a truck just seconds after i got out from under it to grab a tool. I had to build a support anchor for the top of my lift because where I was renting the slab was not done to code.
I poured 4000 psi, added rebar, and paid for fiber strand in addition where the lift is going and I just poured 8 inches. Along with 12 inch footers along the outside perimeter of the slab.
The wedge anchor would definitely be the weak point.
On one side of my lift, the wedge anchors were slowly pulling out as well. I cut off the exposed anchor flush with the post using an angle grinder. Then used a steel rod and hammered the rest of the anchor out all the way through the bottom of the slab. I then re-drilled the holes for the next larger diameter anchors. Hammered in the new anchors. No issues since. The slab is around 5 1/2 inches thick.
Interesting video! I think it's the concrete failing, not the anchors. My rule: "If it can move, it will move. If it starts moving, it will keep moving." That leads to the death of many things. In this case, the cement is crumbling under the compressive force of wedge, and retainer becomes loose repeatedly. Epoxy doesn't exert that force, so it stays solid. Now, will the cement survive the upward draw of the torqued bolt? Time will tell. Good luck!
I say pretty much the same thing. If it can move, it will move. The more it can move, the more it will move.
I worked in the rigging industry, and we had plenty of stands, preses, and reelers that were anchored with wedged anchors. They'd get damaged with ... well, heavy equipment or large heavy reels of steel wire rope being moved around less than carefully.
As part of our work we made spelter socket terminations on wire ropes. These used epoxy to hold the meticulously separated and treble-cleaned individual strands in a "broom" that sat in the epoxy mix that was set. These spelter sockets were engineered/design-rated to 100% the strength of the wire rope used. Each were tested too, to ensure they were good.
The other splices or swaged ferrule splices on a wire rope end: only 60 to 80% of the rated strength.
After those sockets were poured: we would ALWAYS mix more, and have some excess. Most shops I worked at, we filled/repaired spalls and cracks in our concrete floors with the leftover. This "off-label" use of the epoxy was FAR stronger than the concrete it replaced. I've seen 4000 pound reels of wire rope bounced atop repaired sections, and the concrete would give first.
Clearly, anyone whining about epoxy bonded anchors, implying they're inferior to wedge anchors are talking out their arses.
Concrete anchors and epoxy mixes designed for this use would be far, far superior, and worth the extra cost on larger drill bits and epoxy.
I installed elevators in High rises and we only used wedge anchors for the rail mounts and machinery , no epoxy. Commercial applications, the concrete is mixed correctly with exact PSI rating or they reject it. Residential or smaller commercial shops , the concrete is iffy . You have a concrete problem not an anchoring problem. Also of 2 posts , the outer anchors would give before the inner ones , so its not due to lift operation.
I installed a used Wheeltronic lift 14 years ago. A Professional Engineer friend told me "no wedge anchors" . So I cast 3\4" anchor bolts on the pour. The torque has remained at spec.
Anchor bolts can be problematic too. If you use J-bolts like people used to use in houses those things will straighten up and pull out.
Took your advice, thank you!
I've used a lot of Hilti brand epoxy anchoring products, and several other brands, to anchor many different peices equipment over the years in industrial settings. I can tell you with the Hilti products, when used according to the manufacturer instructions, you will literally pull the all thread in two before you pull it out of the concrete ! That is if the concrete doesn't bust first !
When I installed my lift I threw the wedge anchors that came with the lift in the trash and used Hilti's. And there
is always the option of using Tapcons which have better sheer and pull out than wedge anchors. A quality wedge anchor and concrete with the right psi you should never have a failure.
I'm interested in finding out the quality of the concrete . We have that very same 12,000 lift in our shop and it is primarily used for heavy duty trucks 3/4 ton and one tons . One time I did recheck the torque and they were plenty tight, [ within spec. ] . This lift was installed about seven years ago and everything is still mounted down solid.
RE: I'm interested in finding out the quality of the concrete .
Look into: _Mohs Concrete Surface Scratch Test Process_ - you can find a videos here on YT. Will only answer surface strength though. Or you can drill a test hole for another bolt and see what it will take to get it out again?
Times two.
The epoxy is great stuff, I definitely trust it above all else for anchors. If you do accidentally drill through the slab, you can push a small piece of foam backer rod or even a cork down to the bottom to prevent the epoxy from leaking out. Last time I looked at the specs, the steel rod was strongest, followed by the epoxy bond, followed by the concrete. If something fails on these types of anchors, it will be the concrete first. I don't trust wedge anchors for anything more than basic mounting with trivial loads. I have seen equipment mounted with wedge anchors get tagged by a forklift wheel and they don't survive.
Did you drill through the concrete? If the flaring part of the anchor bolt is close to or below the slab bottom it will fail to grab properly.
I did the same research years ago after the guy at our local fastener supply house told me about using Redhead T7 anchoring adhesive and pretty much saw the same data as you have shown. On smaller and less critical applications I have had some experience with pulling out the wedge type anchors.
Great video! I have three lifts using the same anchors that are installed by pros. They are just as loose as yours. No warranty with the pro installation. Go epoxy ❤
You could go ridiculous overkill like I did. I built a 30 inch deep framework with a 1/4 inch thick steel base plate, through which I ran 3/4 inch grade 8 allthread inside conduit, all set inside 36 inch deep concrete footings. Once the concrete was cured, the lift was installed and the allthread was post-tensioned. That bad boy will never fail. Granted, the whole setup cost a couple thousand dollars, and that's with doing all the labor myself. I'd hate to think what it would have cost to pay someone to build all that.
That sounds extremely thorough!!
@billrimmer5596 well, I had done a standard installation originally, but then a stupid mistake on my part led to the floor cracking, so I had to cut out the old floor and pour a new one. I figured I might as well make sure it couldn't fail again.
The reason that your anchors are pulling up is because your concrete is below the required mpa.
Car hoists require concrete which is rated at 30mpa.
In Australia standard concrete is 25mpa but used to be 20mpa.
Unless you ask the concrete company for 30mpa you will get the standard.
If you use 30mpa you will never pull the anchors up out of the ground.
They will tighten up and never pull the anchors up out of the ground.
The epoxy system is for when your concrete is not up to spec or it is cracked etc.
In the US, the typical "standard" mix for floor slabs is 3000PSI or 20MPa. Most Concrete suppliers are pretty good and should give you a ticket with the exact weights of the mix components with a PSI rating. In theory if you have an engineered slab it should include the PSI rating and the slump. Ideally, it may be worth paying for an onsite inspection to ensure the contractor meets the spec.
Concrete contractors can be an issue, Ideally you want someone who does most commercial and government projects like roads and bridges. Guys who do mostly residential and smaller jobs are going to likely cut corners. Low slump concrete is hard to work. Too many times these guys will water down the mix to make it easier to work. But that will lower the final as built strength.
There are field tests that can be performed and you can take cast samples for lab strength tests. If the contractor does not do field tests or create samples for later lab testing, you really don't know what you are getting. If the contractor quibbles about testing or doesn't know how to do them, you should probably look elsewhere.
Some will say that testing is overkill and that may be true to a degree, but at a minimum you should know the mix and make sure they don't cheat the slump.
If you think of concrete as some generic material, educate yourself!
I have to agree with the possibility that there is a concrete issue. If under load the concrete may go "powdery"....0r somewhat brittle ....resulting with the anchor "slipping " through the hole. I installed(by myself)...a 10k lb lift. The anchor will always come out a bit before they make a solid bite. I had two anchored that came out more than I wanted.....and I believe that may have been due to not cleaning the hole really well of all dust. I also believe that not all anchors are created equal.....that is in material quality and build quality. To stand there and swear that the anchor is the issue is somewhat problematic.
@@tonyhowe3676 The anchors aren't great but do work in old well cured concrete. Personally. I've been a bit surprised that the10,000lb lifts don't have a wider base, In heavy industry, we don't ever use these for large equipment. With epoxy, the quality of the concrete matter too, however the surface area is considerably larger.
I don' believe it is recommended, but I have heard of using epoxy with wedge anchors. the theory being that it fills all space around tee anchor. if any concrete begins to dust or crumble, it has no space to go. plus you do get a bond between the entire length of the hole and the bolt. Not the prescribed amount for full bond strength, but likely better than the wedge bolt alone.
Thanks for this; it could be a life saver
You would have to drill a precision hole to get the full benefit of the wedge anchor. Yes they do sell precision reamers for holes in concrete.
Hmmm, every single lift manufacturer that I've researched use wedge anchores. Yours definitely aren't biting into your concrete for some reason. Wedge anchores do work. I've seen concrete break before the wedge anchor pulling out. They should kinda create a little undercut in the area they originally bite into making it less likely to pull out. We have used threaded studs and a type of epoxy to anchor our large machine tools to the floor. Definitely a very strong method. You are correct, epoxy is a very strong joining method no doubt.
Diablo rebar demons (aka Bosch SpeedXtreme, same exact bit, different branding. Bosch owns Diablo) absolutely can drill through rebar. And they work better than the other style. I've punched through full 5/8" sticks with either. The core style bits were a much more exhausting process (leaning on the hammerdrill) and they never lasted as long. Rebar demons use diffusion bonding full head carbide, the other is just a brazed carbide insert. Water helps a lot with both in spite of the directions, but you have to obviously clean it for proper epoxy job. Also need to slow your RPMs. I ran an SDS Max setup so 300-400 RPM typical. People burn them up run too many RPMs on too large a bit on an SDS+.
That’s been my experience, just slows down a little but drills right through it.
Sounds like great advice👍
Spot On
Hilti Kwik Bolt2 is a very good anchor. Make sure the expiration date on the epoxy. We had it set up too fast one time. Drilling it out and cleaning the holes is a nightmare.
If you try to remove wedge anchors from concrete, you should be aware that the concrete those wedge anchors are coming out of is TOO SOFT to begin with. Wedge anchors in the proper psi poured concrete should be nearly impossible to remove. Any lift installed on the wrong type and strength of concrete is a disaster waiting to happen. I would rather die of old age than being crushed to death under a collapsing car or truck lift. Please only take advise from experts not youtube amateurs. Your life will depend on it.
This is really good point: "... the concrete those wedge anchors are coming out of is TOO SOFT to begin with. Wedge anchors in the proper psi poured concrete should be nearly impossible to remove."
Cut 2 4x4 ‘ holes 1.5’ deep. Compacted 6” gravel. Welded thick wall tubing 1.25’ long matching baseplate pattern to a 1” steel plate. Welded rebar to bottom of plate and anchor eon concrete after aligning and leveling to opposite side. I epoxied rebar in old concrete aligning them and welded them to mounting tubes for support. Didn’t want tubing to move. Have 1’ of 4000 psi concrete. Week later cut tubing to concrete level bore & tap.
This for a benpack movable lift. Gearhead here. Build my cars by myself. Not overkill. Safer.
Good video.
Curious if this would work for 4 1/2"- 5" concrete? What would be the minimum thicknes for a threaded rod be ? I believe Rotary includes Epoxy along with the wedge anchors with there lifts now. I just installed a Mohawk 9k lift this past weekend and the specs call for only 80 FT Lbs of torque Great video by the way it gets people thinking
I got my wedge anchor bolts from car lift parts, that are intended for car lifts. 2 years and 2 - 10,000 lb. lifts not 1 single problem, with 2500 and 3500 pickups and vans. 4000psi concrete 5" thick drilled 4-1/2". Not trying to argue, but lift companies install these this way every day and no problems. I have mounted equipment to concrete for 30 years using these and no problems. I suspect you got a bad batch of concrete.
Wedge anchors are fine as long as the concrete and anchor install are both good. And that is the problem. As a former concrete contractor, I'd say that most concrete isn't done to spec. Just walk around your neighborhood, look at the concrete, and tell me that mud was done to spec. Then when you add a wedge anchor that is just a little bit poorly installed, you now have poor work on top of poor work.
Stacking poor tolerances is how you wind up with an unsatisfactory well, anything, in the end.
The last line you said was great
If you don't want to buy the gun, full tube of epoxy etc hilti makes a system with little packages (1 per anchor) that you put in the hole and "screw" the anchor into it to mix it
Great recovery method but watch out for air voids when inserting your rods. The best method is to wet set your bent/heavily washered anchor rods in concrete, right from jumpstreet. Making a plywood template with your desired bolt pattern is key.
I over saw the install of 2500 pieces of threaded rod in epoxy on the roof of the Pentagon for the life line protection system. We pull tested every single solitary rod to 4000 ft pounds. We did have a lot of failures with off brand epoxy but Hilti epoxy installed with screens is badass and won’t fail!!!!
Wow that's awesome to get to work on the Pentagon. Better watch out for those black helicopters now 🤣
4000 ft pounds on a rod is pretty tough to achieve, you need maybe a 40' breaker bar for that.
You are very smart using epoxy to replace those wedge anchors. So much torque on the bolts from the leverage of the weight pulling the towers over at an angle under load means you need superior anchoring. Be sure to create a pocket under the concrete and fill it with the epoxy priot to inserting the all thead rod. This will give not only an epoxy bond but will make the epoxy act like a wedge as well. Use a vacuum to remove some of the aggregate after drilling then fill. Get more than one container of expoxy. One will not do.
I believe...that if your vehicle is perfectly balanced on the lift....in theory.....you could remove all the anchor nuts, without the lift falling over...?.EXCEPT.....if it's a lift with a floor plate????
I sure see the problem to. My answer was to take a same size base plate and weld bolts on it then pour 5 inch concrete over the whole thing . I plan to make a larger base plate to bolt to and ancor that to the concrete for the next one.
The problem is not the anchors. I installed my 12k lift 10 years ago and have lifted diesel trucks (9000 lbs) and Sprinter vans (8800 lbs). When I built my workshop, we used 4000 psi concrete and I wet cured it. Most garage floor use 2000 psi concrete and they air dry it instead of wet curing. That makes the difference. The problem you have is the concrete is too weak.
All modern concrete is weak
@@ineedapharmists You need to find some real concrete and check on that. I frequently use 7000 psi concrete and some buildings use concrete over 10,000 psi. Researchers have developed concrete to go well over 20,000 psi. Consider that average structural steel used to be only 36,000 psi.
@@billj5645 shit cracks as soon as it's laid. Roman shit is still structurally stable 2000 years later....buddy
I was in my mid 50’s when I started watching this video, I’m now 96 and writing this comment from my nursing home 🧐
Tech Red, can you tell me the part number on the rods from McMaster-Carr ? Thanks for some awesome info.
I'm sorry but it looks like I ordered that on Ebay as it's not in my purchase history on McMaster.
At 10:57 "the only thing you can do wrong" regarding using a wedge anchor...it's best to add, ...Not cleaning the drilled hole when using a wedge anchor can also cause premature failure of wedge anchors. Also my concrete guy never uses anything under 4000 concrete when cars are driving on it.
Consider using a spring washer aswell ... that way your won't need to tighten it every few weeks. Service lifts 6 months after installation and can't remember the last time they didn't remain torqued.
M18 wedge anchors, 18mm drill bit,160mm deep, blow gun to clean, chemical anchor (epoxy), 4 pound Hammer, few hours to cure, torque at 150nm.
It's been 5 months since these were done. The nuts still haven't moved at all. Not even 1 degree-Nada. If they ever did turn that would be bad news. If those rods come up even a hairs width out of that slab they have reached catastrophic failure point. The only way they would become loose is if the nuts backed off from vibration (nearly impossible) or the post rocked enough on the slab over time to wear away the concrete and cause the post to drop down a little but that would take many many years.
Where did you locate that wire brush? Where did you order the Ultrabond through? I'm having difficulties locating them.
The wire brush was from McMaster-carr. The Ultrabond came from another online retailer but I forgot who.
We needed to hang a decorative facia over an elevator door. Problem was it was 10' high and weighed 600 pounds Each. There were about 18 of them for Chase Manhattan building. We had 3 teams of 2 people doing 3 sets of facia. Over the bucks were concrete block. Everything needed to be anchored with the epoxy tubes. A chain hoist needed to be mounted near the ceiling. One of the teams hit a hollow block with the epoxy. When they started to use the hoist, the anchors failed and a whole section fell. The sound was deafening. I was pretty sure someone got killed. Fortunately only the steel was damaged. When using the epoxy, you must be absolutely sure it is solidly packed with concrete inside the block.
Thanks for sharing. I will be doing this on mine. I worked in the auto industry and have seen robots pull wedge anchors out of the floor.
I think you may have an issue with your concrete not being up to spec, most require 3000 psi minimum (higher than that for higher capacities). A couple of other things - I have always used hilti anchors instead of the ones that come with lift and have never had an issue, also in your video at least one of your posts has anchors that are less than 6 inches from cracks in the concrete which is a no-no. Perhaps your video title should be - "How I repaired my failed lift anchors"
I’ve been installing lifts for over 30 years. The proper rating for wedge anchors I’d 4000 psi at least 4 1/2 inches thick. If anchor bolts are failing it is because of substandard concrete.
I am thinking the same thing. While epoxy might be a superior choice the root issue is the anchor is breaking up on the holes thus pulling up. Maybe epoxy will fix his problem maybe not because I think the slab is the root cause.
Concrete issue, not the anchors.
Did you have test cylinders pulled when the slab was poured?
Having work as a civil engineer in concrete I would have to agree with these people you have a concrete problem.
@@philtheheaterguy951it’s definitely his concrete issues, when our new honda dealer was built my old buddy did all the rotary lifts in the shop over 40 lifts and they were all installed with wedge anchors, epoxy might be better in your case but if you have proper concrete psi and depth rebar etc etc wedge anchors are perfectly fine
Read the same problem you had accepted busted my concrete when I was talking the wedgingers down so I'm looking at doing the epoxy. Also just wondering how it's held up over time if you have any issues or if it's working great
If your concrete broke from tightening the wedge anchors, you need to cut out the whole section of slab where your lift is going to be installed at and have it re-poured to the proper PSI and depth. Then you can continue with the epoxy anchors.
So far the anchors are still doing great! They haven't loosened not one bit (any loosening would be a sign of 100% failure)
In the 70's we used sulfur to anchor all thread in concrete to anchor equipment, you couldnt get it out, had to cut it off & grind flush to floor. You melt the sulfur in a coffee can & pour it around the all thread, the new epoxies are most likley stronger but who knows sometimes old school is the way to go.
I have always used 6 sack concrete mix 4000 psi . I think people get bids for their floors and dont ask what mix they get. I remember in 70s they had a 2 1/2 sack mix that had chemicals added to give it strength. If the floor is cheap concrete mix the bolts just make powder out of you concrete. Epoxy may help but weak mix will always break down under pressure. I would cut that floor and poor a 6 sack 4000 psi footing under the post.
Why not drill 1 more hole on each side of the lift post base and add 4 more bolts total ?
Most people install wedge anchors wrong. If you don't brush and blow out the hole before installing a wedge anchor it will pull up. Epoxy is the best though. Follow the instructions carefully.
Most hammer drill bits will cut rebar if u stay on it for a while.
You have to use wedge anchors with driving pin in top that drives wedge open and keeps it there
Epoxy is way better than wedge. Good job. Deeper is even better.
What GRADE of threaded rod is needed? 9k lift with 3/4" bolts. Does it matter galvanized or other?
Grade 55 or B7. Finish is personal preference.
Or the absolute strongest way to place the anchors, is to make a template of baseplate,and bolt the L anchor to the wooden or metal template. For added strength, weld rebar,from one L anchor to another,to form a cage. Then place it when the concrete poured.
I poured 10” deep. Ran standard hardware store wedge anchors at home shop. All other dozen or so lifts ice I’ve installed same
Way… check torque about once then never a problem again. Not loose…
Only problem I saw as a mechanic was your use of a torque wrench, 1 click your done, not 2 or 3 more clicks.
This is the first I have heard of this option and I like what I am hearing and will definitely check into this. Been wanting a lift for a while now. My question is. Did you clean out the holes after drilling for the wedge anchors? I just built my shop and used wedge anchors on the walls. There were a few I forgot to blow out and clean and those seem to be doing the same as what you have( never can get them tight) epoxy seem superior no doubt but I wonder if it would make a big difference if the holes were not cleaned out so well on the wedge type ??
Also would be curious with some follow up videos on what they look like when you check torque in the future. Wether they get loose or not. I would expect they stay torqued from now on. Great video and thanks
When we installed the wedge anchors we did blow out the holes with compressed air but we didn't spend near as much time cleaning as when I did the epoxy anchors.
And so far the nuts still haven't turned even 1 degree since the initial torqueing.
Good deal… would love to keep up with how they do in the future or however often you check them. I am glad I seen this video before I bought one and installed it…
I also had an issue with 2 anchors coming out further than needed. I attributed it to cleaning.
When I poured the slab for my shop, I paid extra for 3,500 psi concrete. I also let them know I would be casting test cubes and cure them by the book. 2,000 psi concrete is fluffy and flimsy by comparison. And if the truck got lost, or dropped part of a load somewhere else, and you got the 2nd half of the load, they might add a little extra water so it doesn't start to set up in the truck. It might not even be 2,000 psi. And all the numbers for concrete are compressive strength, not tensile.
Given your situation, you did exactly the right thing. Totally secure overkill anchors are not really needed, until suddenly they are. Then it's too late. If your lucky, the worst part will be a damaged car.
Idonno, the shop lifts been there for 25 years, no real issues but need tightening occasionally. We have fiber reinforced concrete.
It depends on the quality of concrete floor. An old powered concrete floor 12 inches thick isn't as good as the new concrete. However I have seen buildings built in WW2 that still has good floors. The government spared no expense.
The worse cases of these lifts I've seen are on the 4-post drive in lifts where no maintenance or inspections are done and the cable breaks. All latches probably not working either.
Never buy cheap lifts on eBay. A used Challenger or Rotary is better.
No sure today, but Snap-on has sold some very bad lifts over the years. Years ago Snap-on sold pure junk lifts for 7 grand! I don't think they have changed.
If pouring floor for a new shop, might as well get those nice in ground lifts. Way nicer than the 2 and 4 post lifts, and more expensive!
Definitely would have the concrete tested. Suspect a lower PSI rating. Wedge anchors in proper hardness/strength concrete will be a very good fastener.
Well yes but in poorer substrates, the performance difference between chemset anchors and wedge anchors becomes even greater. Unless you want to spend $30k ripping up the slab and repouring it because you dont want to spend the extra $38 on chemset fasteners
@@user-qi6ez4se4r No argument on cost differential. BUT, in really crappy concrete, think like badly done sackrete for instance, even chemsets don't work. We have done pull tests on chemset anchors for window cleaners hanging off the side of high rise buildings. There are occasional anchors that DO NOT pass. You would think that the typical high rise building would pass no issue..
150 ft lbs is only for the initial install. Once installed re-tighten to 90 ft lbs. I have never had wedge anchors fail before when not over torqued.
I used a 3/4” X 6” long Titen HD to anchor my lift down.
My slab is only 6” thick. I drilled all the was through and that way I can drive the bad anchor all the way through and then install a new one. That diablo bit will easily grow through rebar with a Bosch hammer drill too. I wish I had your concrete depth!
I tried installing some lifting connections on a few Jersey barriers with wedge anchors. These concrete barriers weigh 11,000 pounds and when I lifted them by the wedge anchor connectors, the top concrete just broke out. If I had used an epoxy anchor and put it deep, the force would be spread down into the whole body of the barrier. I have to agree with your opinion on this!
Instead of blameing the anchor I think you might look at the concrert . I installed alot of wedge anchors and the only time I HAD A problem was when concret failed test specs. You can core drill a test sample and have the concrete tested . Be safe .
do you have a 15" concrete slab?!
Hi mate, so the wedge anchor, if the stud comes out like 1 inch, it's not safe to use it any more?
There is no way to know for certain if it is "safe" however it is no longer as deep in the slab as it was when it was installed. For example a 6" anchor would now only be a 5" or less anchor. The closer the wedge of the anchor gets to the surface of the concrete, the weaker the anchor becomes. So we already know that the anchor has lost strength. Therefore IMO it's best to not take a chance and replace the anchor.
@@TechnicianRed thx mate
Lot of time the drill bit may take out too much material not allowing the anchor to grip when its torque up
I don't understand what is the thickness and psi of your concrete ? Since you are drilling down 15" is that how thick ur concrete is? I think like a previous person stated the original concrete was the problem . It does not make any sense why the outer anchors didn't fail as those would have the most pull on them???
How thick is the slab?
Do you know how thick your slab is? The spec for the concrete is 3,000psi, usually a 5 sack mix. If the slab is weak, then epoxy may not help that much. Though it’s probable going to be better. I would definitely check the slab.
Regardless of concrete strength, the epoxy anchor will allways be stronger if properly installed. Those wedge anchor expansion fingers only grab a tiny section of concrete and like to crack concrete from the outward expansion. The epoxy anchors grab the concrete all the way down the hole and exerts no outward pressure so little chance of the concrete breaking when a large load is applied. The concrete here was 15"+ thick. My brother had an extra large beam poured to support the lift anchors.
@@TechnicianRed This is the information from a recent Hilti catalog:
hilti expansion anchor (kwik bolt 3)
3/4" diameter x 5" embed, 3000 psi concrete 7535#
hilti screw anchors (kwik hus-ez)
3/4" diameter x 6 1/4" embed, 3000 psi concrete 10,235#
hilti hy200 adhesive with threaded rods (has)
3/4" diameter x 6 3/4" embed, 3000 psi concrete 14,985# adhesive strength
this is higher than the strength of the rods themselves so the rod strength
is the limiting factor. For 3/4" diameter anchors the recommended drill bit is 7/8", for smaller anchors the bit size is only 1/16" larger than the anchor.
I'll add that all of these numbers are dependent on installation. Adhesive anchors in particular can achieve only 1/5 or 1/10 of their capacity if installed improperly. I think the screw anchors are the most tolerant of installation problems.
I watched the whole video and immediately subscribed. This gentleman is a genius. He thoroughly studied and executed the job like a scientist. Today I am moving my rack. Guess what I am gonna use. Exactly what he did. Thank u!!
Personally......I don't think it was very "scientific".......there are other variables to consider why an anchor won't hold. To blame it completely on the anchor is irresponsible. And yes......epoxy was the alternative that worked in this case???
I can see the outer anchors pulling, but why the inner? They're not the one's dealing with the most stress? Are you sure this isn't stud stretch or an issue with the concrete?
They get loaded if the weight of the vehicle isn't centered at the posts. Since each post has arms that can extend to the front or back of the vehicle the vehicle isn't usually balanced at the posts. Sometimes you have to pull the vehicle a little farther forward just so you can open the doors, or with larger vehicles they might be farther forward so you can close the shop doors or farther back so they don't run into the wall where the toolboxes are.
Can you shim the post after that if you got a little bit angle?
Absolutely. That is another great advantage to the epoxy anchors. You can unbolt and re-fasten your load as many times as you want and it won't affect the anchors at all. With a wedge anchor, each time you retorque you run the risk of pulling the expansion wedge further up the hole.
Pull the anchors out, clean the holes with a bottle brush, get some Hilti epoxy fill the holes about 1/2 way up and push the bolts back into the hole. When it dries tighten them up.
Good vid ! 7 month update on the fix?? I'm thinking a stainless steel 1/2 plate (under the slab at grade) with the bolts coming through a new 6-8" concrete pour would be better . You'd have to have an exact template made to set the plates and bolts during the slap pour. .I 'm definitely pouring a deep slab in my lift area. This is concerning for sure. 150' lbs is not a lot
Still holding strong! And yes, your idea would be even stronger for sure. Unfortunately there isn't an industry standard bolt pattern (that I know of) for 2 post lifts so if you change the lift out in the future you will have to redo it all again or be forced to weld the new columns to the old base plates.
In Australia we call them dyna bolts.. both my hoists have been working fine for 28 years..no issues at all
I have 2 lifts that have the same problem with the wedge anchors. Concrete is not the problem. I am installing a 3rd and I am going to try the hilti epoxy. We will see if it holds torque specs better. I have read up on the subject and there is a lot of information on wedge vs. chemical in the bridge building industry. There is no comparison according to them.
hey. curious how those ancor chemical epoxy ended up working out for you. Still holding up?
Yes they are still going strong!
Are you still having to periodically retorque your threaded rod/epoxy anchors?
I’m getting ready to install a lift and I’m strongly considering just going straight to epoxy.
What if you epoxy your wedge anchors? That's gotta be good for at least 32,000 ft lbs, give or take a 100 or so? Right?
Edit: guess I should've waited until the end...
This is a failure waiting to happen. You never drill thru a slab due to rusting. The debris must be vacuumed out because it acts like an abrasive around the drill bit and also gives you a false depth. Wedge anchors when installed properly is the choice, always. I will also call out that your concrete is not rated in strength and thickness to successfully support this. I have a Mohawk lift (best out there) and again, quality wedge anchors are used.
Sounds more like your concrete isn’t deep enough. These shouldn’t ever fail you. That being said, the ultra bond is a great alternative
3:25 Can someone please explain what "coded" threaded rod means ? Is this some tensile standard ?
"Coated" is the term I used. This rod has a gold-colored cadmium coating that protects it from rust. Most grade 2 hardware has a zinc coating that is silver and does the same thing. Some hardware is bare metal with just an oil coating so I allways avoid that.
No engineer but I've been anchoring heavy things to concrete for 30 years. Hopefully the epoxy anchor solves your issue but wedge anchors are fine. The site specific variables that defeat any anchor are the condition of the concrete, thickness of the concrete, original spec of the concrete and the condition of the holes drilled. If for whatever reason the holes for the anchors were out of spec, the anchor will fail. Could be because of the condition of the cutting edge, the drill spindle runout operator error. On and on.
I have used these anchors for years. If you drill all the way through the concrete, you can pound a new anchor on top of the old one. Also before you re tighten. Pound the anchor down first. It will re set it self.