Review: Honeck's Narcissistic Beethoven Ninth
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- čas přidán 3. 02. 2021
- I wanted to love this. Honeck is a brilliant conductor who has given us great Beethoven. There are fantastic things in the first two movements especially, but this performance is disfigured by a desperate need to be different, important, and epic. The result is mannered, unnatural, and ultimately, less expressively intense that it should be. What a pity!
Reference Recordings SACD FR-741 - Hudba
And here I thought David's videos only COST me money. Thanks for saving me money on this one!
You really took one for the team!
A Pittsburgh Symphony fan, here. I am so glad I have my treasured Steinberg recordings of Beethoven.
David. I was worried by Honeck's timings and your review just confirmed it. Thanks.
If Honeck wants to know what Beethoven thought about extra musical matters , he should read some of LvB's notebook entries , like "In everything but music I am an ass", or in reference to Napoleon "Even with that bastard I made a mistake" and then there is the mess with his nephew Karl.
In what conversation books does he mention Napoleon? I just read vol 3 of Theodore Albrechts translation.
Love the tie clip!
David: long-time Brian Society subscriber here (my first compositions are up on the site) and yes, I was at the 2011 Gothic. Pleasure to discover your CZcams channel...so much out there, and so little time.
Thanks for the most excellent review. I'll be back.
Your description, in places, reminds me of the ridiculous David Zinman recording in which he takes the march in the last movement so fast it could be a can-can, and his adagio is also shorter than the scherzo.
Thanks, Dave. I agree on your rational comments on the Adagio, but also feel that for psychological reasons, it can never be rushed. That Adagio is needed to cast aside all the thunderclouds. It is a peaceful evening after a stormy day and before a new and bright dawn. A revolution has happened (and you are right, it has no place in the last movement), and now we are entering some sort of new era. Run through it, and the listener just is not ready for that finale.
But it's at least interesting to hear it once in the fast manner like Abbado (DG, 2000, 12'48) or Gielen (EMI, 1997, 11'44) do it.
I don't entirely agree. I think it drags at slower tempos. It's all based on repetitive variations, and needs to be driven along a bit. The Furtwangler model doesn't work, for me.
@@bwpm1467 Fast isn't a new idea. Toscanini was regularly around 13 minutes, and his 1939 version comes in under that. But yes, dragging is another way to kill it. The point is the psychological effect, and tempo is but part of that.
@@georgestern2063 I am well aware that fast isn't new. And I prefer fast to slow in the Adagio to the Ninth. It is not all about some blissful tranquility. That's a misreading of it. It's meant to be quite stirring and inspiring - hence all the brass fanfares. I don't hear it as a gentle chill out session before the finale.
Go Dave!! Spot on!!! One of if not your clearest explanations of performance problems interfacing art yet! Enjoyed this more even than your ‘exposes’ of the usually (commonly) untouchable uncrticizeable (is that a word¿) ‘god’ Furtwangler. Drinking one’s own koolaid is always disastrous…
Glad to hear you call out Ben Zander for HIS narcissism (and windbag-ism) as well. My introduction to Zander was a talk on why nobody besides himself gets the Danse sacrale from the Rite of Spring tempo right. EVERYONE is too slow and orchestras of the past couldn’t play it at the correct tempo. His evidence? Stravinsky’s piano roll via an lp release of it. Yep, a piano roll, where nobody knows exactly what speed it should be played back at, and where there is no change of pitch to signal the speed is incorrect! I gave him my opinion on that and I think he probably would have murdered me on the spot if he could have. I agree about Honeck’s fantastic Eroica....too bad about this one. I must admit I’d like to hear it now, to find my own compass, but I do feel he’s been headed in this direction. The Bruckner 9th was awfully fussy as well.
I actually listened to this yesterday and I definitely agree on the tempi. A real shame. I thought the same on the hurriedness during the tenor's solo in the 4th movement. No space for the singer to showcase his chops. I'm always a fan of Maestro Honeck's use of brass and percussion and general pacing and I think he's one of the best out there. I more so enjoy the recording than dislike it, but it is so so fast at times which takes away from its quality.
Your critique reminds me of many Leinsdorf-Boston Symphony performances when he was Music Director, especially of standard rep. The script (notes) was there, but often the spirit that inspired the notes was diluted, if not missing: didactic exercises-- albeit at a high level of musical knowledge and performance technique.
Actually David, your review has moved me to purchase this recording. I have eight recordings of this symphony (😲) and they are all pretty much alike in taking the conventional approach regarding tempi etc. So these days for me to buy a recording I have to be picky: it has to bring something new to the table for me. We can speculate ad infinitum what composers intended. Who is to say what Beethoven might think about this take on his music? I look forward to it.
Enjoy! It's your nickel.
What did you think of the recording?
@@sw3aty_forte I enjoyed it. I didn’t find any of the changes objectionable and some of the departures from the more traditional readings probably went unnoticed by me, since I’m not an expert on this symphony. Recording was top notch.
Blomstedt's adagio with the Gewandhaus is (slightly) shorter than the scherzo and I have to say it flows well and it is nicely cantabile - not so much 'adagio molto', but it works!
Exactly. A few seconds one way or another isn't a big deal, and if the performance has other things going for it (as some HIP-style versions do) it may not matter to me as much; but in general, after two big, quick movements, I really do feel that we need the lyrical repose than a more expansive Adagio provides.
What is described in the video to the best of my knowledge happened yesterday in Leipzig. I have been listening to the end of year Beethovens 9th for the past 19 years here, many with Chailly others with Blomstedt and Nelson but this one was strange. Honeck directed yesterday with the Gewandhausorchester and I did not feel the Alle Menschen werden Brüder sentiment that I get for the end of the year, which is the entire purpose of playing this symphony every year since 1918, to promote peace on earth. To me the timpanis were too loud at certain point (like the fifth offbeat timpani in the second movement) and the final bars of the fourth movement the strings felt like a loud stutter. The turkish march felt like they were being hurried, which brought me back to when I used to do that and my teacher would ask me if I was being chased by anyone. So FOR ME, it felt strange, like a bizarro version of the 9th. Given the state of the world with authoritarianism growing in popularity perhaps it is an appropriate renditiin of the times?
In our day in age I must sadly also make it clear what I am not saying. Not saying it was bad, and not saying that Honeck cant direct. It is my experience which is subjective and deeply amateur having only studied music for a year.
The Szell/Cleveland recording of the Ninth is the one that I grew up with, and it still remains one of my very favorites. I'm also a Bernstein fan, so his Vienna Ninth is a sentimental favorite, mainly because it was recorded in the year that I was born. :)
BTW, as for the Eroica, Honeck's is one of the finest since Szell AND Bernstein, IMHO. ;)
That all sounds good to me!
The Cleveland, under Szell, was possibly the best Beethoven and Haydn orchestra in the land.
There are a lot of Honeck recordings I didn't like and every time I ended up listening to his Dvorak 8th instead.
Classy
Many thanks David for this review, I was looking forward to this recording as ''something new and different'' but it seems just same old same old of conductors trying to do their thing instead of Beethoven's. You've saved me a few quid. Any chance of doing the Beethoven Violin Concerto one day ?
Sure, at some point. There are just so many good versions, it's a tough piece to narrow down.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Isn't it just. Thanks for this channel, as a 'newbie' you've opened my ears to new experiences, every video is a discovery. Wonderful stuff.
I was really looking forward to this release! What a shame...
It’s great, be your own critic
@@michaeljackson2230 after my comment I listened for myself. The eccentric phrasing in the latter half of the finale didn’t sit well with me.
When I saw the timings for each movement on Presto Classical, I was wondering how it would fare next to Mackerras on Hyperion (which has similar timings in all 4 movements). Judging from your review, I guess I'm better off sticking with Mackerras.
Out of Honeck's previous Beethoven for this series, I agree that the Eroica and the 5th are stunning, but his 7th struck me as being rather mannered too (he also happens to repeat both Kleibers' mistake of adding pizzicato strings at the end).
As far as I recall, David likes the Mackerras recording of the 9th on Hyperion, so am not sure why he is making a point about the timings here, as they are very alike, as you say yourself.
You keep saying that, but I can like a performance without liking everything about it or saying that it's perfect in every detail. I do like Mackerras, and I still disagree with the tempo for the Adagio. Other performances have enough going for them that this detail isn't as disturbing as it is here. I make a point about timings in this performance because they matter in this performance more than they do in other performances.
Yes, I would stick with Mackerras.
@@DavesClassicalGuide The only points I was trying to make here was that:
1) The timings on Honeck's Ninth immediately reminded me of Mackerras II, which is one of my favourites, and I was curious to hear how Honeck would fare next to it.
2) I wanted to express my view on Honeck's previous Beethoven.
I certainly wasn't trying to criticise you in any way. I'm also able to enjoy performances with minor imperfections and/or details that I don't agree with (eg I agree Honeck's Eroica is one of the best even though I felt the horn playing was a bit off at times).
About tempi in the Adagio: I generally prefer slightly slower tempi in this movement too (between 14-16 mins ideally) but in my view, Mackerras implemented his faster tempi very convincingly in both of his recordings of the Ninth (excluding the Signum one). That's just my personal view.
@@JaneSmith_ I was not responding to you, but to the other commentator who also replied to you but was addressing me. For some reason replies all get stacked up together so it's hard to see which message I was replying to. I agree with you completely about the virtues of the Mackerras recordings.
Oh boy wait until you hear Honeck's latest Brahms 4th recording with Pittsburgh....Looking forward to your review of that.
I confess that, for me, the ninth is the least favorable among Beethoven's symphonies. I find it a flawed realization of a monumental, visionary concept. Therefore, I've been seeking an interpretation that will bring the realization as close as possible to Beethoven's ideal (to my ears, of course). I listened to many attempts - all failed to "do it for me" (including some HIP and Original Instrument readings). And then I found Fricsay's "classic" recording. That one finally enabled me to imbibe at least a portion of the ninth's sublime nectar :).
Dave I really like Honeck, and I would appreciate it if you could review his Bruckner and Mahler symphonies
You can find reviews of all of his recordings of those composers on ClassicsToday.com.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for reminding me Dave.
Agree. It's always bad not see the forest for the trees, that's a very frequent phenonemon. But what's the point of recording it still over and over again? Is there a lack of great Beethoven 9?
A great performance is its own justification. Always.
I'm still looking forward to Honeck's Pastoral, if only to see if the recording engineers were ever able to get rid of the high-pitched whine that made the conductor halt the performance in the middle of the first movement and ask the Heinz Hall audience to please turn off their hearing aids as they were all the microphones could pick up.
What could be more appropriate in a Beethoven performance than the intrusive whine of hearing aids?
I’ve never heard a better tympani roll at the deceptive cadence into F major at steht voir Gott! But you’re right about the adagio it sounds like he was possessed by Norrington.
Thank you for adding a word to my cranial dictionary. I thought you said "concagnation", so I had to look up the meaning. I see....it`s "concatenation": "a group of things linked together or occurring together in a way that produces a particular result"--evidently a result, in this case, you did not particularly relish. Sometimes, however, a rendition is so incredibly unusual that one may find it fascinating just on that level alone, like the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra version of the 9th I heard on the radio on Beethoven`s birthday last year. (I will draw the line, however, at using a tuba as Mahler did in his adaptation. Slatkin did that version with the NSO once. It was kinda weird.)
“The general sense is lost in a morass of senseless detail.” That poetic turn of phrase, David, is a memorable one for the ages. Do you have that one written down somewhere in one of your reviews? It can apply to many recordings that are trying too hard to be different and “revolutionary.” This is one of the problems often found in ostensibly “historically informed” approaches, despite some other important contributions and insights they sometimes have.
Thanks for that. I don't know if I've written it or not--if I did I would probably say "pointless" rather than "senseless" to avoid the word repetition--it seems to be OK when you say it but not when you write it!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I actually like that repetition because it adds to the memorability and color of the phrase, and makes it quasi-poetic.
@@IHSACC Well thanks!
The fast revolutionary march idea isn't even original. This was Gardiner's (bad) idea.
And Gardiner has many, don't he?
No, it's generally accepted that the tempo indications for the march had been misunderstood. It should be brisk, not slow, and most modern performances reflect this. See the Bärenreiter "Urtext" editions of 1997 and 2005.
This is Honeck trying to be different just for the sake of being different, which, usually, means there was nothing new to say about the work.
Dave, you have saved me from an unnecessary expenditure, and not for the first time. I would have gladly bought this recording, having been impressed by Honeck's devastating account of the Bruckner 9--my first encounter with this conductor on record. However, any version of Beethoven's Ninth that races through the adagio will never find a place on my already too-crowded shelf. I don't mind an interventionist interpretation if the interventions genuinely illuminate the music, but from your description Honeck's interventions distort the music. Too bad, since the Pittsburgh Symphony is such an amazing orchestra these days.
I spotted this needy fiddling/highlighting and disruptive phrasing in his Bruckner 9 - I have no time for it when it’s not adding to the piece. It is sad though he was never a favourite of mine - he was reliably adventurous in Europe. The playing and recordings they are getting in Pittsburgh are divine. Shame it all being compromised.
It's simply the height of hubris for any conductor-Honeck, Currentzis, Norrington, etc., take your pick-to think that he has anything "new" to say about Beethoven's 9th-or Tchaikovsky's 6th, Mahler's 5th, etc.-in the year 2019 or 2020 or 2021. You read some of these booklet notes, and you would think that they've been asleep since the 1980s, when the period instrument crew started making such silly gnostic claims.
Thank you for saving me $18.
I can’t say I was surprised. As great a conductor as Honeck likely is as witnessed with his work in Pittsburgh, I have found his mannerisms and futzing with the scores more than annoying. One reason that I don’t like his recording of the Dvorak Violin Concerto. As you say, maybe he will learn to leave well enough alone when he returns to some of these masterpieces.
I don't think I've ever been as sad about agreeing with you on something. Although I will say I was very relieved when he slowed down enough for the last "freude schöner götterfunken"--at least it ended on an interpretive high.
I know. It's very frustrating.
I preordered the CD a couple of days ago...What a pitty.😂
You may love it--you never know...
So on a previous episode of "Manfred Explains it All," I heard that he/PSO played a version of Mahler 6 a couple years ago that had FIVE (5) hammer blows. Does anyone have any information on this? What was his source? Believe me, I'm one of those vulgarists who thinks Mahler 6 is better with 3 than 2, and I'll take 18 hammer blows if someone can justify them, but I've been unable to search or find any more information about these performances? Thanks, anyone; and David -- superb review!
Mahler originally wrote it with 5, but whittled it down to 3 before finalizing the score for the first performance, and then 2 in subsequent revisions. I wrote an article about it if you're curious: www.classicstoday.com/features/ClassicsToday-Mahler6Score.pdf
@@DavesClassicalGuide Wonderful, thank you!!
The percussionists has Tourette. That’s all.
I guess if the review is so-so, you wear a shirt and tie, but if it's good, you wear a tux.
Honestly I'm very tired of this piece, do we really need another Beethoven 9th? That being said, I see a lot of comments here on the timings which kind of surprises me. Just from the timings alone Honeck doesn't seem like he's particularly fast. More or less the norm these days, isn't it? Of course, timings only tell part of a story.
Since you brought him up -- and mentioned how fast Honeck's Adagio was -- have you heard Zander's recent recording, David? It's about a minute and a half quicker.
I have heard faster, of course, but that really isn't the point. I never said that Honeck was "particularly fast." Indeed, I suggested that he's in line with many HIP and HIP-influenced interpretations, and his version sounds just as unsatisfying as those often so. FYI I reviewed Zander for ClassicsToday.com, as you can see for yourself. www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-from-hell-zanders-beethoven-bs/?search=1
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yeah, I was more talking about some of the comments (below the video) who were concerned from the timings alone, not necessarily your comments in the video itself. From my perspective it (the timings) just seemed business-as-usual these days.
Thanks for the link.
Who is this 'we'? There isn't one. If *you* don't need another Beethoven 9, then that's great, enjoy what you already have, listen to other pieces, etc. You're in the amazingly fortunate position of knowing that nobody is *ever* going to put a gun to your head and force you to listen to new recordings of Beethoven 9. Others may welcome the opportunity to hear a conductor as fine as Honeck offering his reading of the piece. If you're very tired of the piece, listen to something else! Problem solved, and I'm waiving my usual fee. You're welcome.
@@gharqad I am terribly sorry for having used the dreaded W word without your consent.
@@Recolation obviously it's not a question of consent. There's just a nicely amusing hauteur about deciding what 'we' need, and so I had some fun with it. Sounds like it touched a raw nerve though. I know some people can't stand to have anything they say questioned, especially humourously, so do please consider my comment apologised for and withdrawn.
Beethoven's 9th tie!!!
Of course!
Holy Cow you referenced Ben Zander LMAO🤣
Let's just listen to Szell's Beethoven 👍
After soooo many years I keep on going back to Szell.
Szell forever.
Variety is the spice of life, but Szell’s Beethoven really never disappoints.
Szell's 9th is my favorite
I heartily agree! I, too, thought this would be another great Honeck/Pittsburgh collaboration, but frenzy and hysteria are NOT viable where Godlike majesty is required. I will never buy another Honeck performance again without checking here first. I hope he gets over this manic phase as soon as possible. How could he be so oblivious to what he was hearing?
On further reflection, it seems to me that somehow Honeck confused Beethoven's 9th with Berlioz's Symphony Fantastique.
Es la mejor versión de la 9a que he oído en muchos años.
Again, when you revile a recording, I know that it will be enlightening, thought provoking and well worth checking out, so thanks. I never pay attention to what a performer or conductor says anyway, it's usually not worth bothering about.
Hmm. Revile seems a bit harsh here--and believe me, I know when I revile something. I think this performance was more sadly disappointing.
Well, you say a few positive things, but in general, I would classify this as a rant, lol. Which is cool; I always appreciate that you don't mince words and always say exactly what you think. I mean no disrespect; I have a pretty good idea of your tastes by now, and what you'll like and not like, so that's extremely helpful to me in finding new recordings I'll find interesting. I might end up not liking Honeck's Beethoven 9 at all, but I know it will challenge me to think and reevaluate my own conception of this warhorse. Keep up the good work. There's a lot of pure crap on CZcams; it's heartening to know there are those like yourself who are willing to take the time and effort to post things of value and substance.
How very disappointing. Great maestro, great orchestra, couldn’t resist the temptation to try to stand out in the crowd. Sounds like instead this stands out in the wrong way. Very snazzy tie and shirt combo anyway Dave.
But if you listened live I bet you’d be the first one to shoot up from you seat with claps of extreme adulation. Europe loves the PSO AND MANFRED more then uncultured American audiences that support overrated groups like in New York, Boston, and Chicago
@@michaeljackson2230 don’t get me wrong, I love the PSO too and will likely give the disc a listen soon. Your second sentence is rather ungenerous, and I’d suggest you’d make a more compelling argument for your own preferences without any gratuitous vituperation.
@@michaeljackson2230 I am fairly recent transplant to Pittsburgh and I must say that I have been floored and I mean floored by the world class nature of the ensemble not because I should be surprised that the PSO should sound this good. Quite the contrary. As a native New Yorker with close ties and affiliation to my hometown orchestra, I find that the PSO as a whole does not act like a pretentious brat who expects everyone to genuflect. I will listen to this symphony and recording to garner my own thoughts in this regard, but I more needed to comment about how amazing the support is for the PSO in this town! It is a breath of fresh air.
His Dvorak was great but his Beethoven 5th, to me at least was self indulgent and boring. His notes for that disk were also self serving. So will not be buying the 9th.. BTW, did not like his Eroica at all.
I haven’t seen Honeck live, but his recordings on CZcams are typically poorly balanced with several of those inappropriate mannerisms you mention. When I read people rave about his talent, I just don’t hear it for myself.
I think most of his previous recordings have been stunning, but he seems to be getting weirder. I hope it isn't so.
@@DavesClassicalGuide He bats above .500, which is pretty impressive in the day and age of Rattle, Norrington, Currentzis, and (sigh...I am coming to be convinced) Petrenko. There are always conductors who move far beyond the score (like Mengelberg and Bernstein often did). Let's hope for more Szells and Reiners. Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts. Why does that seem to be asking so much?
@@DavesClassicalGuide what would consider his two best recordings? I’ll seek them out and try to improve my perspective of him.
@@EthanMatthes, once you watch/read Mr Hurwitz' s reviews, you will notice that Honeck's Dvorak 8th, Beethoven 3rd, and Mahler (1, 3) are among reference recordings.
Most respectfully I heard so much fussing and pushing Ana pulling in Honeck’s Dvorak 8th that I became immediately suspicious. The only other Honeck/PSO recording that I bought was the Tchaikovsky 6. Reading Honeck’s liner notes was scary as he talked about this note and that note. However,imho,the performance is quite fine. But I am extremely wary of Honeck and his interventions. It’s always been there. I do like the Mahler recordings/Exton which have been released. IMHO there are some composers/works that you can fiddle with but there are others that you should just play the notes as writtten and as well as you can.