Universalism in Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Isaac the Syrian (w/ Dr. David Bradshaw)
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Universalism in Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Isaac the Syrian (w/ Dr. David Bradshaw)
#orthodoxchurch #easternorthodox #orthodoxy #ancientfaith
Universalism in some way is just logical to me, I don’t need Origen to tell me anything.
Wow! Thank you for the clarity of your stand on St Isaac, Dr Bradshaw… I will focus on his Ascetical Homilies…
It’s wild reading the histories of these theological disagreements. Like the patriarch of jerusalem refusing to excommunicate someone so then a mob of monks riot in the streets and the patriarch changes his mind. Or like bishops writing letters to the emperor to excommunicate a rival. It’s wild stuff.
I'm (slowly) reading LaTourette's "History of Christianity" (would recommend), and yeah, a lot of the arguments and the to and fro feel a lot like performative and egocentric / careerist moves, often with very little love and humility.
Excellent discussion that reveals so much Phronema, see Dr. Jeannie Constantinou, and supports why I’m an Eastern Orthodox Convert. I don’t go to the Church of St. Gregory or St. Isaac. I worship in the Body of Christ that is not defined by any man but rather maintains the authority of the Holy Spirit to determine Truth through the enduring voices of the many as described by Fr. Panayiotis Papageorgiou.
Thank you for this @AncientFaithMinistries. Always good to see a video with David Bradshaw. Aristotle East and West is greatly appreciated. I look forward to learning who his academic proteges are. Christianity at large desperately needs such solid scholarship and will continue to need it in the future.
So how exactly does the individual’s free will retain continuity in the eschaton? It’s somehow “frozen” in a certain dimension but free in another? If the damned aren’t “annihilated” then are they just living amongst the redeemed, being tortured for eternity? Will that put a damper on the eternal environment?
Jesus said “ If I be lifted up I will drag all men unto me” look at the Greek most modern version say draw but the Greek is drag
Growing up as a protestant with the idea of eternal conscious torment, it became clear to me that no one really believes it. Sure, they'll pay it lip service, but watch what they say at the funeral of a wayward young man who killed himself drunk driving. They'll say very hopeful things, and someone will confidently declare "I know he's with the Lord", flying in the face of what they "believe". Meanwhile they will refuse to pray for the salvation of someone who has already died. It's a hopeless situation.
Embracing universalism and Orthodoxy, for me, made it possible to accept the reality of damnation. Perdition is a real danger, with a reality most people don't ever stop to think about. Precisely because it is not absolutely permanent, eternal, irrevocable - it is therefor not a contradiction for God to be Love and also allow his creatures to throw themselves into ages of torment. Repentance is necessary, of course. No one will be saved without repentance and faith in Christ, because salvation is by definition reconciliation to Christ. Annihilation, carried out as a total unmaking with no memory of the person remaining, is conceivable as justice - but isn't this view more clearly denounced by the Church? Many formulations of universalism, especially of the Unitarian variety, are foolish and soul endangering, absolutely. But good riddance to the hobbling cognitive dissonance of dogmatic eternal torment, unexamined; and let us pray for the salvation of our loved ones who have passed:
_O Lord, seek out the lost soul of your servant N.: if it be possible, have mercy. Your judgments are unfathomable. Do not count this prayer of mine as a sin, but rather may your holy will be done._
People who think Muslims worship the same God Christians worship, should ask one of them. They will become furious and insist that they don't worship the same God we worship. I came to Orthodoxy to escape all the heresies, like pagan, Marxist universalism, solo scriptura, and prosperity gospel. No matter how many propagandists push universalism, when Christ returns, there will be a remnant who still believe, and faithfully worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christ is King. Jesus will win in the end.
Isn't "Jesus will win in the end" exactly what universalists believe? I think you're confusing universalism with unitarianism.
EDIT: Forgive me for being argumentative. It sounds like you know some heterodox we could be praying for. If you give me some first names, I'll commit to praying for them daily for at least a month. If you don't want to post names publically here, let's work it out 🙏
In the ancient world, rich people did not have gated communities and private jets to hide themselves away from the poor. So the way welfare worked then was that you took the crippled and sick to the door of the local rich person. The rich person was supposed to throw some coins to those at his gate as he entered and exited his home. That's not what the Rich Man did for Lazarus. He literally stepped over him every day. If you look very carefully at what Jesus says about the Rich Man and Lazarus, you will see that while the Rich Man is in hell, he doesn't even bother talking to Lazarus. He still thinks Lazarus is the non-entity he thought he was in life. He just asks Abraham to order Lazarus around like he's a non-entity and doesn't even apologize to Lazarus for treating him the way he did in life. Repentance is the first step away from hell. Hell is not only full of demons, its also full of humans who cannot repent. Hell is meant to protect Heaven against these.
Interesting take!!
So the Church (roughly speaking) condemns all forms of universalism but doesn’t dogmatize any eschatological vision.🙄
yes, the ecumenical councils create boundaries, but there are many things we just won't know till the eschaton. see the Book of Job for example.
Universalism isn’t condemned at Constantinople 553. We now know those canons weren’t original to that council. Norman Tanner’s critical edition doesn’t contain the anti- universalist canons.
The comments about St. Isaac's canonization raise an interesting question. Can the Church canonize someone in error? If it's just a matter St. Isaac only making the cut because his potentially problematic writing weren't on the radar of the Church at the time, it feels very circumstantial vs the leading of the Holy Spirit in the Church to acknowledge/canonize a Saint. Or can we rest on the fact that if the Church has spoken on this matter, he is indeed a Saint, even if he may have had some problematic opinions?
I’m not educated on the topic. However, I don’t see why being a saint-a holy person-would be the same as being a perfect theologian.
Dr. Bradshaw is so good. His vast knowledge answers so many questions.
Invite David Bentley Hart on. It would be great to have a scholar who offers the perspectives of Saint Isaac of Nineveh and Saint Gregory of Nyssa
It is sad that satan has deceived so many to think that a God of love could create people just to torture them forever. It would be far more loving to not create them in the first place.
So Origen was a gnostic, nice
Origen was definitely not a Gnostic.
If Adam means man, as such, and in the icon of Holy Resurrection shows Christ freeing Adam from Hell…
Call me a schismatic but it's so sad that Origen was anathematized. If only he could be seen as a saint in the same sense as St. Augustine. Deeply flawed but still a holy man.
No, it's not tragic, nor is it unexpected. Origen is a thrice-condemned heretic. Sure he had some good writings, but his ideas are dangerous and spiritually destructive. The Holy Orthodox Church condemned him in multiple œcumenical councils. But by all means, if some among you following Ancient Faith seem to know more than the Church, and the bishops in those councils led by the Holy Spirit, then do correct them.
@@ahorton880thrice? What are you a whimsical British nanny or something?
@@ahorton880his aberrant teachings also carried over into heresies promulgated by his pupils such as Evagrius Ponticus and Didymus the Blind.
It’s impossible to read Origen without developing a deep respect for the man. So many of the ancient fathers loved him too.
I'm with you. Origen was unjustly condemned, assuming his condemnation actually happened, which I doubt.
Saint Gregory nor Saint Isaac were universalists. What a disgusting broadcast. Such slander.
You need to read more because you are misinformed
You obviously don't study
Why do you say that?