I was very fortunate to see the Artic Monkeys at the Nimes (France) roman theatre in July. It was used for hunting wild animals and gladiator combats from around the first century AD! I cans honestly say the sound reproduction was incredible and enhanced by such a beautiful Roman amphitheater. Nothing could come close to the sonic and visual experience of that concert. The next day I bought one of their albums that was missing from my collection. I will listen to it and probably visualize the the concert again. That’s the power of music.
Good point about the reverberation that a big hall or a natural or man made amphitheatre adds to an experience. Paul also doesn't mention the dynamics that live music has which are usually heavily compressed in recordings, although I think he is a champion of dynamic recordings, the kind of dynamics that you can achieve with a live sound system are on another scale. And the kind of volume that you can achieve outside or in a big space are the main element of the excitement, you won't feel that in your lounge room because of acoustic limitations and also psychological ones.
When i was a kid my dad was a service tech and eng at Bose . I told myself if i ever got rich id build a system that seperated the instruments in the music and feed each instrument to speakers designed to play each instrument. Unfortunatley i was only thinking of KISS at the time so only 4 speakers. An orchestra would be huge........never got rich so theres that too........
A neat idea, I've had the same one - have always imagined that some billionaire could afford to set up a system designed for large orchestral pieces, with (incomplete description ahead) dozens of dedicated speakers, each one funded to be designed and constructed to be optimized for the instrument that it would solely play; multiple instrumental tracks fed from a single sound board with an single instrumental track sent to each speaker, with appropriate amplification electronics involved; and a large acoustically-optimized space to position the speakers and blend their sound. It still wouldn't be equal to the live experience, but it would come much closer to it than even the best conventional stereo or multi-channel system today.
IMHO, listening to recorded music is akin to looking at a photograph. At best, you are hearing an illusion created by the various engineers, who choose and position the microphones, electronics, mix and such just as a photographer frames his shot and chooses the lens, camera, and such. A good recording, even classical, is as much the engineers' artwork as a photograph is the photographer's artwork. What Paul was getting at about popular music is that the recording studio is used as a musical instrument in its creation, so it can't really exist outside the studio, and the recording process takes on an even larger role. A few days ago, I was listening to Good Vibrations by the Beach Boys, and thinking exactly that. By today's audio standards, this recording has its technical flaws, but not only the musical performance but the recording itself is a work of art. It's mono, it has some hum and distortion, but it is nonetheless a thing of beauty.
I own JJ's Blues House in Gifu City, Japan. I'm also an audiophile as well as my sound tech. To be upfront, my venue holds 30 people at max comfortably. Ain't no stereo in the world can reproduce the quality sound we provide to both our customers and musicians. Why? It's our quality gear, the way we use it, and our room treatment. My point is not to brag, but rather suggest that my venue's room is somewhat like an audiophile's dream. It's not Disney theater and it's not a rock band stadium. It perfect for our musical goals. We have blues and rock bands as well as piano, violinists, and double bassists. We don't play it loud. We play it musically. For music playback recordings, it sounds musical and full. We use QSC speakers. K12.2s and a KS118 sub. The secret to maximizing these high end powered pro audio speakers is all about the setup, which encompasses a lot lot lot. Between our analog Midas Venice mixer, the Pearl Reference Pure drums, the Aguilar bass DI box, and our vintage 69' Fender Super Reverb amp, it's far superior live than any home stereo. Just wanted to say that while my venue is the exception and not the norm, we are here. And we are turning hundreds of people on to quality sounding live music every month. Just my two cents on this topic.
Small venue music is my favorite, too. I am pretty lucky to live in the D.C. area with about half a dozen great small music venues -- Lucketts Schoolhouse, Jammin Java, The Hamilton, The Barns, The Birchmere. Here's my gripe. Why can't we emulate the Japanese model and have more "Vinyl Bars" to listen to music? What is it about this business/entertainment model that is not suited to the U.S.? I would drink a lot of $$ at Happy Hour just to listen to a killer stereo system. Yes, we have a few, but not nearly enough.
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Unfortunately, Gifu City, Japan is not very convenient for a lot of people. And very few of Paul’s 207k subscribers would be able to attend each year, with only 30 seats available for each performance.
I'm doing the same thing in a different, equally out-of-the-way venue in SE Iowa. It's a 113 year old brick armory, and the indoor basketball court is going to be one of the best sounding music venues in the US. I hired an acoustician, and we're getting the reverberation times down to around one second at all frequencies. For the PA, I'm going with a relatively new company out of Germany called Coda Audio, which is the sister company of BMS, which makes pro audio drivers. Coda's compression drivers use a pair of flat ring diaphragms instead of a 4" titanium dome, and they have half the distortion of dome compression drivers. I have a pair of Coda HOPS8 point sources in my living room right now, running on a measly 100 watts per channel, and they have the powerful visceral sound I've wanted in my living room for decades and never achieved.
I have been into audio for many decades and now have a top quality system. However, I have never heard a convincing recording os an acoustic only performance at a live concert. From a full Symphony Orchestra to a small Ensemble, there is just no substitute for the audio experience of a live performance. No recording or playback system comes close to the experience of actually being in a concert hall. More modern music performances are quite different. When you attend a live amplified performance you are listening to the audio system at the venue. You hear the microphones, amplifiers and loudspeaker stacks. A recording of the performance is probably largely extracted from the venue’s electronics and the home playback audio is therefore closer to the experience. All you can do to build your home system is to settle on the equipment that sounds good to you, but recognising that no home system can come close to a live classical performance.
The biggest difference by far will often be the venue. I wonder if anyone's compared the sound of a quartet playing live to the same 4 people recorded separately heard through 4 speakers placed in the same position on the stage?
"home playback audio is therefore closer to the experience." Not even close. There is no home system, or home for that matter, that can replicate a big venue like a stadium or amphitheater. The power and clarity of modern concert systems and modern music is phenomenal. I was reminded of this HUGE sound Saturday at the Berkeley Greek Theater with My Morning Jacket. There is nothing in home audio to compare to this. Live music is the best.
@@anonimushbosh Not True. If one gets rid of Left ear/ Right ear cross talk, perfectly balanced left side vs right side amplitude level, flat overall response, and eliminated playback room reflections with both room treatment as well as use of a Dirac Live enabled DSP, all that is left becomes the recording room reflections. The sound becomes totally disconnected from the speaker drivers and only the recording room echos and reverberations is all that is left. 100 plus feet of perceived sound stage depth is not uncommon. I’ve already done what people claim to be impossible. But is housed in a purpose built approximately 200 cubic foot, two channel near field listening chamber. 11 1/2 year build.
As Paul sort of says, live isn't always live. Live classical or jazz means listening to instruments but most other live music is heard through amps & speakers.
@qquarkk It's probably the live the average Joe listens to . Most live I've been to was in bars. The only time I went to a real concert hall was to see Billy Connolly .
The advantage of recorded music is that YOU can choose the concert program and not have to wait for it to be scheduled at your live concert venue ... and you can listen to the music that YOU want forever and a day. A live concert performed in a premium venue will always sound better than a recording BUT the recording can let you be in the conductors seat.
Agreed. When living in Cambridge MA, we had the wonderful opportunity to walk down the street to listen to classical music by Harvard-Radcliffe Orchestra. It is a beautiful small hall with excellent acoustics. There was something special about strolling through the quaint back streets of Cambridge to attend these uplifting events. But this was a unique opportunity. Now back home in Toronto, I would have to commute 40 minutes each way in heavy traffic to catch a similar event and be lost in a large hall that uses sound reinforcement. And I have no interest in big ticket rock events. The sound just hurts. I like listening in my private room any time I want. I enjoy a live small venue jazz event or a quartet when I can. But given my wife does not enjoy it, the last time I bothered to do it was years ago. My stereo is not interchangeable with live music. For the most part it is better when all things are considered.
I last heard live classical music in 2015. It was wonderful. The feeling of being in audience was also a high. However, it did take work to get there and back, quite a bit of work and time, and at times the experience of the music of the concert was marred by things like traffic sounds around the church in which a fine concert of baroque vocal music was performed. Where I am now it would take an hour and a half each way to get to a concert, and because the local classical concerts are by subscription, I would be toward the back, on the side, in a venue with dubious sound. Getting back in the dark on a country road is too much for me. So, I invested in a good sound system. I also listen every day, for at least an hour and a half, sometimes attentively, sometimes less so, to a wide variety of performances. I miss the sense of occasion, certainly. It would only be if I lived in a European capital that I would not need the sound system. And now, being older, the comfort of home might still outweigh the live music.
You made no mention of small venues like jazz and blues clubs. I enjoy the energy in the air that I feel being at these clubs and yet when I listen to the same musicians on quality recordings at home their music can sound substantially better. It's the live experience that matters. In my lifetime I have typically gone to approximately the same number of large concerts per year that Paul has and additionally at least once per month at a jazz or occasionally a blues club. That means that in my 62 years of being an audio enthusiast I have attended a hell of a lot of live music experiences.
A great answer, Paul. Until recently, for decades I was a regular concert-goer to the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra as well as chamber music concerts presented by (mainly) overseas artists but COVID started getting in the way two or three years ago and many concerts were cancelled, so eventually I decided 'enough was enough' and I no longer go. I do have a very large record collection (CDs and SACDs) as well as file downloads so I spent much of my time listening to recordings through my high-end equipment and find the experience immensely enjoyable. (I am also hoping to have a DirectStream MK II DAC fairly soon).
I basically agree with this person, but in my case I typically listen to the content and not the reproduction. If I was all about the HiFi reproduction, I would spend much of my listening time unhappy with the result. There are so many deficienties in the recording process, starting with microphones and ending up with the mastering process. Unfortunatly there are many subjective pieces to this puzzle before reproduction is even dicussed. Anyone can go crazy critical with the whole process of recording and reproduction. I find that I can enjoy the content from most systems. I try not to analyze every detail of a system because that seems to only leed down the path of dissapointment. Once you train yourself to point out system issues you will always be dissapointed, even million dollar systems are not perfect. I hope I never get to the point that I can't simply enjoy the content.
I absolutely agree with both positions. Real is best for classical music, yet if what one can access is only reproduced performances, then so be it. I live in the sticks of South Carolina. Major orchestras and venues are a long way away, so it's only once a decade that I get to do that. We have a local symphony that is very good, and we are season subscribers. However I am so glad that I can get my Mahler, Mozart, Bach, Bruch, etc. fix anytime I want to. I have spent a lot of time and dollars over 50 years to get the system where it does a pretty good simulation of a live performance. Certainly not perfect, but I do enjoy it immensely. I believe there are countless other audiophiles around the country who would love to hear it live, but geography makes that a distant dream.
You can buy the piano anytime. The Cure will be gone one day and you’ll say,,,damn …why didn’t I go? Live music is also something permanent too. Something you can talk about and share.
Ticket prices are insane. I far prefer seeing bands in my home theater. No crowds, no pot smoke, no drunks, no waiting in lines being searched. I can adjust the sound levels so as not to have to wear hearing protection. Orchestra's, on the other hand, I do enjoy on the rare occasion
@@scottyo64 reminds me of my time in London as a student and at concerts in the Brixton Academy and many other crazy dives. Too old for the dodgy places too…….
I think that it depends on the type of live music. With mixed pop music, it was never live, so more of art on a spatial audio canvas. With a small number of instruments in a room, one can get pretty close with a very good system (plus get rid of people chatting in the background). With an orchestra at a large venue, it's extremely difficult. People's brains are incredible as to how they process the sounds. This is a bit like hearing a conversation in a crowd of people talking. I have heard recordings where the mikes seem to be further away from the instruments to try to capture the room sound. The instruments sound rubbish. When mikes are placed closer to the instruments, the instruments sound more real, but lack the hall sound. I must admit that I find classical orchestral music a bit boring, even when live. I also remember going to a Pat Benatar concert in Hammersmith Odeon in London. Just a mass of sound in mono coming from the PA system at the front. I didn't enjoy it at all so never went to another such concert. However, I did enjoy the Jean Michel Jarre concert in the Docklands (London) which was synchronized to fireworks and a light show. It was also fun watching a world firework competition in Toronto, which was synchronized to music over the radio. Italy won that year (which was the one we saw). If I want the experience, live would be great (though I find the seats too small for me, with my knees crushing against the seat in front). If I want the good music, I prefer a very good system.
I think many audiophiles disregard the needed effort to search in the very large global library for best recordings of a certain piece of classical music - and that's a pitty as there is huge differences there! One of the best is Prof. keith Johnson, Reference recordings. And, no matter what system one has at home, if the room acoustic do influence just a bit too much, then the experience at home will suffer. I experience that my system with top quality recording sounds significant stronger, with higher clarity and dynamics, than sitting in a non-optimal seat on 20th row in the concert hall.
Big disatvantage at live concert is that you always have to sit at the right position in order to hear all details. And that is not possible always unless you’re a conductor.
Steely Dan comes to mind…studio is way better than live…if you can find live…and I gotta say my Home theatre 7.2.2 playing back a well recorded video of the Berlin Symphony sound very Concert Hall like , yes I said video…it’s not live but close..
As a professional musician, I’m use to playing live music, classical or otherwise, and while I appreciate listening to it in a venue, here is something that apparently no one ever really ask. Should recorded music strive for that kind of “sound” you hear in the live venue or should it be its own entity. In other words, should live music be enjoyed for what it is and recorded music be enjoyed for what it is without attempting to combine the two? Personally, I say the latter. The reason is simple, as stated by Paul. Recorded music will never approach the liveliness or the dynamics of a live venue. It may come close at times but it simply can’t achieve that level of live sound. And it shouldn’t! Think of it this way: The next time you go to a live music event, try listening to it critically as you might with a home setup. Do you hear, say, woodwind or brass players inhale before playing their notes? Do you hear bows sliding against the strings during quiet passages? What about the nuances of a vocalist? Fingertips sliding over guitar strings? In a live event, you just aren’t going to hear those things - in most situations. In a recording, you can hear those things depending on the quality of the recording and the resolution of the equipment. My point is that a live event and a recording (studio or live) of that same music are two completely different moments with two different “outcomes”. If it’s true that a recording will never come close to a live event, then the same must be true (to an extent) that a live event will never come close to a recording. Live events should be appreciated for what they are (not recordings with their characteristics) and recordings should be appreciated for what they are (not live events with their characteristics). The next time anyone goes to a live concert, as yourself this - do you want what you hear live to be exactly like what you hear on your system? For me, I would say no. As glorious as a live concert can be, I don’t want that coming from my system because my system lets me hear it from a completely different perspective with its own strengths and weaknesses. And besides, no one would want a live event to sound like it’s coming from a pair of speakers.
OMG .... don't tell the audiophiles that! You might be amazed how much money, effort and ego is spent trying to replicate the live experience from a pair of lollipop speakers, over powered amplifiers and massively expensive RCA cords....
Without there being any consensus on what at-home listeners would want to emphasize in a recording, one could argue that in portraying music, acoustic or electric, associated with a live setting, it may be best to try to create with as much fidelity as possible simulacra of the typical live listener experience, while understanding that listening positions and spaces certainly vary. It's one thing if multiple 'reconstructions of recordings of live music or a studio experience of a particular piece were clearly marketed and offered in a differentiated manner to consumers, from among which each person could choose their sonic preferences for recordings; but for, say, classical music or jazz, better IMO to offer a 'consensus' reproduction of the live event, for which the best foundation is probably the aforementioned 'generic live experience vantage point.' Obviously if one were say, the Beatles creating Sgt Peppers, or Pink Floyd creating Dark Side of the Moon (highly synthetic compositions), the creators are starting with compositions played in a way distinct to the creators' idiosyncratic visions, with a strong studio construction creative component involved, so the point I was making earlier would be moot, as there's no commonly-understood foundation for what's being intended to be recreated in the musical experience. But for pieces that start out in an 'unmanipulated' (or less manipulated) live setting, if the baseline of the live listening vantage point is abandoned, where would the manipulation reasonably stop?
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I'd say that most audiophile consumers, in their heart of hearts, know the limits of their systems and are not unreasonable in expecting their memories/imaginations filling in the rest, that is the sizable gap between stereo presentation and live listening experience. There are exceptions, but most audiophiles I know don't harbor the degree of delusion you favor thinking they have.
@@maxhirsch7035 You may be correct. We all tend to exaggerate common experiences ... for example: the cop who treats everyone like a criminal or the judge who thinks everyone is lying. I actually do try to avoid that simplistic vision when I can. However, this experience is very compelling. In these comment sections alone I routinely find people much further out on the limb than I expect. Many actually demonstrate a rather tenuous grip on reality. I won't trouble you with a list of examples but there are quite a few and most of them, rather sadly, confirm my worst versions of things. It has now reached the point where the reaction to the mere mention of cables making a difference or rolling tubes (or op-amps) in the hope of tuning up a system, the eyeball roll and "here we go again" reaction is on full automatic. And, sadly, very few provide me with the pleasant surprise of exceeding that expectation. This hobby has changed. There has been a massive falling out of even the most basic technical skills. Skills that one might reasonably expect to go hand in hand with the kinds of tasks setting up a high end system would entail. We've fallen all the way from examining schematics and suggesting product improvements (not "mods"... real improvement) to the manufacturers all the way down to arguing the merits of fancy and concomitantly expensive wires. Our lot has changed from a group that manufacturers listen to all the way to being the laughing stock of a good many watercooler discussions. There are a few ... a scant few ... that I would tag as "Technical Audiophiles" who at least appear to be reasonable both in conversation and goals... but in the years I've been in this hobby, I can now count them on my fingers. Overall the expectation you cite comes from the utter and far too common failure to prove me wrong. With respect to the music itself; it's all very simple. If I enjoy a selection or album I will keep it. If I don't I will delete it. Certainly I'm not about to tear up a working system over one bad pressing.
@@maxhirsch7035 I doubt there needs to be a consensus. While I'm sure we can all agree that we want the best possible representation of a particular song or collection the rest of it is a matter of personal taste and choices. AND... so long as the music is well presented, I'm fine with that. It is also important to understand that, with the increasing role of mixing engineers as part of the outcome, much of today's available music is not derived from live performances... in fact some of it is so "engineered" as to be impossible to play live without a noticeable loss of apparent talent. So, we can each simply keep what we like and ditch the rest of it.
@0:40 "Why would I go to great lengths..." -- Because you can't just decide, at a moment's notice, that you will listen to live music, and have the Enterprise transport you to a concert where a band happens to be performing. -- Because you do not have to drive (often in traffic, and often for longer than the concert lasts, for the round trip). -- Because you can't choose which band will be playing the live music. -- Because you can't choose which songs the band will be playing. -- Because you can't repeat a song at a live performance. -- Because you can't listen to a live performance in your underwear. -- Because you can't pause the live performance, to go to the bathroom, or take a minute to attend to other matters. -- Because you can't choose the volume. -- Because you might be alone, and would rather not go to a live event, alone. -- Because of Covid, you might not want to be rubbing elbows with a crowd. -- Because some people have physical handicaps that make it difficult to go to a live performance. -- Because you might not have time to make it an all day event (traveling and a full performance), and have only 20 minutes to listen to a few songs. -- Because you might have guests over, and want to hear music. -- Because the band you want to hear broke up or passed on. Why did Jerome, in Los Angeles, ask his question? Did he just want to extol the great sound quality of live music? If so, then why ask the benefits of a high-end system, when he has to know the benefits of a high-end system? I understand wanting the best sound quality. But I know no one that is so wildly extreme, in that regard, that they will listen only to live music, and with no amplification (concerts with amplification is a form of a stereo, and you are no longer hearing live sound -- you are hearing live performers through artificial equipment -- through their concert hall's speakers). Even audiophile $billionaires, who can have artists perform live for them in the comfort of their mansions, can't simply have the band of their choice be there at their whim.
The only music I really like live is classical and acoustic jazz. I don't like live music that's amplified. I also listen to music on and off all day long. No one is going to convince me that I shouldn't listen to it on the best equipment I can get. Does the person who wrote in only listen to music one or two days a week?
Having been to over 300 concerts and seeing over 630 bands, there is nothing to beat the live musical experience, is the sound always as good as a recording, no, but that's only half of the "event". I agree 100% classical music is a far better experience live than any recording on any system can give you. You can go to a hell of a lot of concerts for the price of a pair of FR30
Has anyone tried setting up their stereo on their 25 foot wide patio? It eliminates room walls completely. If you put some plywood behind the speakers you'll get more bass. Maybe taking speakers to the great outdoors (at least on special occasions) is the answer; if the room is the limiting factor, and keeps giving itself away at being a room.
I wonder how animals in the woods, say an open meadow would react to music? We know that bats would find stereos too bright; that's established and it was predictable anyway. Would they try to attack it for invading the quiet of their territory? Would they sometimes enjoy it? Would they be confused or scared of it. Even tube amps, which often have no real electronic signature like solid state amps would sound way too bright to a bat. I notice that bats are mentioned on here often I am really beginning to think that tubes are simply the better device for reproducing audio, in a way that better imitates the way real instruments sound. Some say tubes aren't as accurate, (that's the opposite of what they were saying in the 1980s 90s when "tubes tell the truth" was the belief of many) but do acoustic instruments in real life have an electrical solid state sound to them, or the paper thinness or edge accentuation, or stinginess on warmth? We live in a crazy world, and is crazy ever considered accurate? My exceptionally clean solid state equipment does have that ultra purity that can tickle you on every note, but I have come to realize, especially lately, that instruments simply sound more believable with tubes and the slight but audible additives you can hear with solid state gear. I prefer the timbre of tubes, even if it isn't quite as clean. I was once a real "clean" freak as far as sound. I never thought I'd get like this, but I know what I hear. A good tube amp without solid state's additives, just sounds more genuine to me; I'm sure.
_"Has anyone tried setting up their stereo on their 25 foot wide patio?"_ I suppose that would depend largely on how much contact with the police and angry neighbours you find tolerable.
Those with 25 foot wide patios are not likely to have close by neighbors. I can't imagine big spacious estates with large patios that have neighbors within ear reach. Logic...again.
It's potentially troublesome going out to see live music if you like to have a couple of toddys as part of the experience. For the cost of one dui you can buy an awful lot of hifi equipment, which would be just fine for most people's listening pleasure, and you don't have to leave the house.
Deepnds on the genre like you said....jazz sounds so much better live from big band to small trios and much more vibey to be honest. But something like contemporary dance music (disco, house music etc) from the last fifty years? Sounds way better pre -recorded hence why DJs became so important. There are some amazing sound systems these days and with the right DJ it can be a sublime experience.
For one, I don't have to be stuck in traffic for an hr just to sit in a sea of people hoping I can filter out all the noise while trying to focus on the music. If there is one boring piece, there is a chance to fall asleep, hasn't happen to me yet but never say never.
Paul... I am surprised by your comments about Taylor Swift and such requiring the level of equipment you clearly are in favor of. I would suggest, if you want to hear Taylor swift reproduced the way it sounds in the studio... BUY studio level equipment...NOT audiophile equipment.. after all the mix engineer and mastering engineer would have a very different array of equipment that they would mix on. I would guess that your own recording studio is more studio level equipment rather then your audiophile listening room ..
Live only works when our taste matches the concert schedule. For great music ANY TIME, we need the convenience of a home system. The home playback can also generate great pleasure - just not the same. The reasons are far more than the sound. Repeatability is another HUGE difference.
Let's forget about large scale classical for a moment, since your living room is never going to sound like a large concert hall and reproduce the scale of a whole symphony orchestra. Can you reproduce something more intimate like a Jazz quintet compellingly? For the most part you can, with good enough equipment. Can you reproduce a grand piano so that it sounds like a real one is right in your room with you? Perfectly maybe not, but close enough to be convincing enough to maybe fool someone at times. Solid state equipment with their usual paper edge thinness and general greediness with warmth is not what you'd use for piano. Especially someone who uses the low keys a lot, like McCoy Tyner. Can you reproduce a singing voice so that it sounds like it is believably right there in the room with you? Yes, it can be done quite persuasively, if the equipment is good enough. Any peaks in the frequency response or electronic signature will give it away as a reproduction. When you get to a certain level of reproduction and sound quality, the reaction is not "darn it doesn't sound real". The reaction is pleasure and amazement at how real it does sound... Getting an amazing amount of realism in audio is not a hopeless cause. Lots of people out there with equipment that isn't good enough. Equipment that was a mistake, or synergy mistakes. The people who do listen to large scale classical, and sink money into great equipment instead of once and done concert tickets, have a continual enjoyment, that doesn't end with yhe "Finale". They buy that level of equipment because it gets them "closer" to the illusion of a live orchestra playing. Is there anything strange with getting closer? Much closer?
Frankly many classical recordings are not great. Some are just bad. Especially the ones recorded in concert halls. But opting out of a good home system and limit your listening to live venues is pretty, pretty weird to me. I really don’t like having to hear sneezing, coughing, chatting, seat rustling around etc. yeah nice to see a concert and I do frequently but I enjoy the music the best at home.
That thing about walking down a city street, or any street for that matter - - there's absolutely no mistaking someone banging away on a real drum set with their window open or in their garage with the door up, one can discern real drums/cymbals and such without much problem - - I don't ever remember being fooled by someone blasting their stereo - not that I've probably ever heard an absolute reference system being blasted via an open window - although perhaps something like the flagship MBL's with their massive dynamic range blasting a recorded drum solo "might" get it done, but even that's a "maybe" imho.
Short of hiring, say, a string quartet to play in your living room, you really can't know the full scope of the difference. However, it is still plain that the difference is significant.
Paul, you are incorrect. There is a system today that recreates exactly what it sounds like to be in a concert hall, whichever hall that the recording happens to take place. It can even recreate the giant sound of pipe organs found in humongous churches all over the world. It’s the worlds most accurate doing system that eliminates all cross talk and gives the headphone experience in three dimensional space. This system is able to produce 3 1/2 Hz to nearly 40 KHz almost ruler flat. 🎉
Live music is best and a lot more fun for me. I live for the live music experience. I have been fortunate to have been to hundreds of concerts over fifty years. I am selective now as most bands don’t exist and Ticketmaster is a rip-off. Being an audiophile I get the best of all worlds.
There is a huge difference between live and home music, no matter how good your hifi system might be... In the live venue you are hearing what the musicians want you to hear. In the home experience you are hearing what the recording engineers want you to hear. Not the same thing ... often not even close. (Pop music doesn't count here, since you are essentially listening to the digital recording in the concert halls while the performers dance and lip-sync along)
The last two live performances I have attended have been awful. World famous performers but sound volume was at hearing damage level with many audience members sitting with fingers in ears.
@@jim9930 _"a living room is simply too small to reproduce even the best recordings"_ You'll get no argument from me on that one. Realism isn't much of a goal. But it can still be plenty enjoyable. Spent my career doing repair and some design work on audio, computers, two-way radio and office equipment. I don't know if I'm retired or just plain tired...
@@jim9930 Glad to hear you're up and around again ... I know the road back from serious injury and it absolutely is not fun. Unfortunately my part of the industry was not known for making millionaires... but it was an enjoyable and challenging career that kept my interest, so I'm happy to call that "success". Electronics got me started in the audio thing, did some early design work in the later 70s that produced a couple of patents. Then money and choices relegated it to hobby status as I headed up a national service department in an office automation company until the later 2000s when I rejoined this mess to do in-home service and installations... Now in retirement, I'm consulting on some Class D projects and finally content to just listen to the music. As the ancient curse says "May you live in interesting times".
I can appreciate classical in a music hall with a 100 players but was never a fan when they joined rock bands like Metallica or Dream Theater outside of those classical halls. I also know unless I set up a 100 speakers in a special acoustic room its not going to sound like you were there. Anything that was recorded or played through a sound system can be recreated, easy.
No mention of room acoustics, the average listening room will never sound like a purpous built concert hall like the Royal Albert Hall for example. Spending thousands on a hi fi system has to include some thought for your room acoustics otherwise you will not reap the benefits of your system.
Live is great but not in all cases. Crowd ambience can ruin a performance or a loud section of the music in the venue may hit your ears wrong. Benefits of speakers is it’s a personal experience with the person the the music no distractions. No crowd ambience unless part of the track. If something hits yours ears wrong turn the volume down or skip the track. Only alternative in live performances is earplugs or leave the venue a short time or leave all together.
Not watched the episode yet. Live acoustic music Yes! Not all live bands are playing live. Where I get to listen to music, house, car etc, whatever the platform, I've got music.
I've not been to a live music concert for many years, but surely you're listening to the quality of the system used to amplify the live music? ... And I'm pretty sure that my Hi-Fi is better than a crappy PA system! 🤣
I wouldn't take that bet ... Sound Reinforcement has come a long way in recent years. Digital processing, line arrays, distributed amplification, lighter more portable equipment... and on and on, will now easily give the best home systems a good run for their money.
I disagree, Live music doesn't always sound better. I was recently at a Lindsey Stirling concert in Sopot (Poland) and, like at the last few concerts, it was too loud. I was a bit farther from the stage than the engineers, so I think they heard the same as me. In many songs the lyrics were incomprehensible, the same songs sound better at home. Classical concerts are a different story, they actually give a completely different impression live.
There is a tombstone in a smaller graveyard not too far from me ... "People didn't like me. The feeling was mutual" Thinking I might get a version of that on my own stone.
I can prefer hifi to live for a few reasons: Bad venue room acoustics, bad PA mix, PA sound mixed to mono, people talking, people blocking the view by holding their phones over their head to take videos they may watch only once, overpriced tickets , parking & food. A well recorded concert will be 2 channel, 3 channel, 5 channel on blu ray or 4k. It can be enjoyed often. A live show can only be heard and/or seen once.
I adore live music but cannot of course always access the concerts I want to go see - so recorded music is the only alternative. In addition, unfortunately but for sure, not all artists are as good live as they are in the studio 🫣😢
I would go live converts, but I absolutely refuse to be ripped off by the ticketmaster monopoly
I seem to be able to find live performances to watch at home. For me, in my little home theater, it's a much more enjoyable time.
I just have no patience for the public acting like toddlers
Spot on answer. Reiner, Gould, Richter, and Jacqueline du Pre aren’t doing concerts these days.
I was very fortunate to see the Artic Monkeys at the Nimes (France) roman theatre in July. It was used for hunting wild animals and gladiator combats from around the first century AD! I cans honestly say the sound reproduction was incredible and enhanced by such a beautiful Roman amphitheater. Nothing could come close to the sonic and visual experience of that concert. The next day I bought one of their albums that was missing from my collection. I will listen to it and probably visualize the the concert again. That’s the power of music.
Pink Floyd - Live at Pompeii (Full Concert 1972 film) czcams.com/video/TfBNJLdVvoc/video.html
Good point about the reverberation that a big hall or a natural or man made amphitheatre adds to an experience. Paul also doesn't mention the dynamics that live music has which are usually heavily compressed in recordings, although I think he is a champion of dynamic recordings, the kind of dynamics that you can achieve with a live sound system are on another scale. And the kind of volume that you can achieve outside or in a big space are the main element of the excitement, you won't feel that in your lounge room because of acoustic limitations and also psychological ones.
When i was a kid my dad was a service tech and eng at Bose . I told myself if i ever got rich id build a system that seperated the instruments in the music and feed each instrument to speakers designed to play each instrument. Unfortunatley i was only thinking of KISS at the time so only 4 speakers. An orchestra would be huge........never got rich so theres that too........
A neat idea, I've had the same one - have always imagined that some billionaire could afford to set up a system designed for large orchestral pieces, with (incomplete description ahead) dozens of dedicated speakers, each one funded to be designed and constructed to be optimized for the instrument that it would solely play; multiple instrumental tracks fed from a single sound board with an single instrumental track sent to each speaker, with appropriate amplification electronics involved; and a large acoustically-optimized space to position the speakers and blend their sound. It still wouldn't be equal to the live experience, but it would come much closer to it than even the best conventional stereo or multi-channel system today.
IMHO, listening to recorded music is akin to looking at a photograph. At best, you are hearing an illusion created by the various engineers, who choose and position the microphones, electronics, mix and such just as a photographer frames his shot and chooses the lens, camera, and such. A good recording, even classical, is as much the engineers' artwork as a photograph is the photographer's artwork. What Paul was getting at about popular music is that the recording studio is used as a musical instrument in its creation, so it can't really exist outside the studio, and the recording process takes on an even larger role. A few days ago, I was listening to Good Vibrations by the Beach Boys, and thinking exactly that. By today's audio standards, this recording has its technical flaws, but not only the musical performance but the recording itself is a work of art. It's mono, it has some hum and distortion, but it is nonetheless a thing of beauty.
I own JJ's Blues House in Gifu City, Japan. I'm also an audiophile as well as my sound tech. To be upfront, my venue holds 30 people at max comfortably. Ain't no stereo in the world can reproduce the quality sound we provide to both our customers and musicians. Why? It's our quality gear, the way we use it, and our room treatment.
My point is not to brag, but rather suggest that my venue's room is somewhat like an audiophile's dream.
It's not Disney theater and it's not a rock band stadium. It perfect for our musical goals.
We have blues and rock bands as well as piano, violinists, and double bassists. We don't play it loud. We play it musically.
For music playback recordings, it sounds musical and full.
We use QSC speakers. K12.2s and a KS118 sub. The secret to maximizing these high end powered pro audio speakers is all about the setup, which encompasses a lot lot lot.
Between our analog Midas Venice mixer, the Pearl Reference Pure drums, the Aguilar bass DI box, and our vintage 69' Fender Super Reverb amp, it's far superior live than any home stereo.
Just wanted to say that while my venue is the exception and not the norm, we are here. And we are turning hundreds of people on to quality sounding live music every month.
Just my two cents on this topic.
Japan = Tourist..👍😎🤗
Love Japan..❤️❤️🥰😍😘
My favorite Japanese singer.❤️❤️👍🥰😍😎
Mori Masako.
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Small venue music is my favorite, too. I am pretty lucky to live in the D.C. area with about half a dozen great small music venues -- Lucketts Schoolhouse, Jammin Java, The Hamilton, The Barns, The Birchmere.
Here's my gripe. Why can't we emulate the Japanese model and have more "Vinyl Bars" to listen to music? What is it about this business/entertainment model that is not suited to the U.S.? I would drink a lot of $$ at Happy Hour just to listen to a killer stereo system. Yes, we have a few, but not nearly enough.
@@HAL9007
This is a private bar in a Japanese house. 🤗👍😎
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Another music bar in Japan.
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Music Bars in Japan are popular👍😎
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Bars in Japan have stereo systems..👍😎
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Unfortunately, Gifu City, Japan is not very convenient for a lot of people. And very few of Paul’s 207k subscribers would be able to attend each year, with only 30 seats available for each performance.
I'm doing the same thing in a different, equally out-of-the-way venue in SE Iowa. It's a 113 year old brick armory, and the indoor basketball court is going to be one of the best sounding music venues in the US. I hired an acoustician, and we're getting the reverberation times down to around one second at all frequencies. For the PA, I'm going with a relatively new company out of Germany called Coda Audio, which is the sister company of BMS, which makes pro audio drivers. Coda's compression drivers use a pair of flat ring diaphragms instead of a 4" titanium dome, and they have half the distortion of dome compression drivers. I have a pair of Coda HOPS8 point sources in my living room right now, running on a measly 100 watts per channel, and they have the powerful visceral sound I've wanted in my living room for decades and never achieved.
I have been into audio for many decades and now have a top quality system. However, I have never heard a convincing recording os an acoustic only performance at a live concert. From a full Symphony Orchestra to a small Ensemble, there is just no substitute for the audio experience of a live performance. No recording or playback system comes close to the experience of actually being in a concert hall. More modern music performances are quite different. When you attend a live amplified performance you are listening to the audio system at the venue. You hear the microphones, amplifiers and loudspeaker stacks. A recording of the performance is probably largely extracted from the venue’s electronics and the home playback audio is therefore closer to the experience. All you can do to build your home system is to settle on the equipment that sounds good to you, but recognising that no home system can come close to a live classical performance.
The biggest difference by far will often be the venue. I wonder if anyone's compared the sound of a quartet playing live to the same 4 people recorded separately heard through 4 speakers placed in the same position on the stage?
"home playback audio is therefore closer to the experience." Not even close. There is no home system, or home for that matter, that can replicate a big venue like a stadium or amphitheater. The power and clarity of modern concert systems and modern music is phenomenal. I was reminded of this HUGE sound Saturday at the Berkeley Greek Theater with My Morning Jacket. There is nothing in home audio to compare to this. Live music is the best.
You’re statement about no playback system can recreate the concert hall experience is false. You just haven’t heard one yet. 😊
@@hiresaudiocosta873 Yeah but unless your house has a concert hall to play it in, it still won't sound even close.
@@anonimushbosh Not True. If one gets rid of Left ear/ Right ear cross talk, perfectly balanced left side vs right side amplitude level, flat overall response, and eliminated playback room reflections with both room treatment as well as use of a Dirac Live enabled DSP, all that is left becomes the recording room reflections. The sound becomes totally disconnected from the speaker drivers and only the recording room echos and reverberations is all that is left. 100 plus feet of perceived sound stage depth is not uncommon.
I’ve already done what people claim to be impossible. But is housed in a purpose built approximately 200 cubic foot, two channel near field listening chamber. 11 1/2 year build.
As Paul sort of says, live isn't always live.
Live classical or jazz means listening to instruments but most other live music is heard through amps & speakers.
A lot of instruments, the amp and speaker, are part of the instrument.
Imagine a Telecaster without a Marshall or Hammond without Leslie..😊
Almost all jazz concerts are amplified.
@@gotham61 I was thinking of something like a smoky den in downtown Manhatten. You can probably tell I'm not exactly a jazz aficionado!
@@anonimushbosh Even there the bass player, guitar, and singer will be amplified at the very least
@qquarkk It's probably the live the average Joe listens to . Most live I've been to was in bars. The only time I went to a real concert hall was to see Billy Connolly .
The advantage of recorded music is that YOU can choose the concert program and not have to wait for it to be scheduled at your live concert venue ... and you can listen to the music that YOU want forever and a day. A live concert performed in a premium venue will always sound better than a recording BUT the recording can let you be in the conductors seat.
Agreed. When living in Cambridge MA, we had the wonderful opportunity to walk down the street to listen to classical music by Harvard-Radcliffe Orchestra. It is a beautiful small hall with excellent acoustics. There was something special about strolling through the quaint back streets of Cambridge to attend these uplifting events.
But this was a unique opportunity. Now back home in Toronto, I would have to commute 40 minutes each way in heavy traffic to catch a similar event and be lost in a large hall that uses sound reinforcement.
And I have no interest in big ticket rock events. The sound just hurts.
I like listening in my private room any time I want. I enjoy a live small venue jazz event or a quartet when I can. But given my wife does not enjoy it, the last time I bothered to do it was years ago.
My stereo is not interchangeable with live music. For the most part it is better when all things are considered.
Wish I could buy the recording of Lady Gaga’s Jazz performances in Las Vegas.
I hope at some point they are available
Lady Gaga fans.
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First classical concert I went to was featuring music from Pink Floyd.
Great honest answer from Paul like always 😃👏🏻
Extraordinary answer 😅! Congratulations Paul!👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
The shorter answer to his question is, “Not everyone is you, bud”.
But I like your efforts at politeness. Here’s yer’ upthumb.
I agree that no recording overcomes a live performance, but those EMI Bishop-Parker discs sure do come close. They let me enjoy the music!
totally agree ,,❤❤
I last heard live classical music in 2015. It was wonderful. The feeling of being in audience was also a high. However, it did take work to get there and back, quite a bit of work and time, and at times the experience of the music of the concert was marred by things like traffic sounds around the church in which a fine concert of baroque vocal music was performed. Where I am now it would take an hour and a half each way to get to a concert, and because the local classical concerts are by subscription, I would be toward the back, on the side, in a venue with dubious sound. Getting back in the dark on a country road is too much for me. So, I invested in a good sound system. I also listen every day, for at least an hour and a half, sometimes attentively, sometimes less so, to a wide variety of performances. I miss the sense of occasion, certainly. It would only be if I lived in a European capital that I would not need the sound system. And now, being older, the comfort of home might still outweigh the live music.
You made no mention of small venues like jazz and blues clubs. I enjoy the energy in the air that I feel being at these clubs and yet when I listen to the same musicians on quality recordings at home their music can sound substantially
better. It's the live experience that matters.
In my lifetime I have typically gone to approximately the same number of large concerts per year that Paul has and additionally at least once per month at a jazz or occasionally a blues club. That means that in my 62 years of being an audio enthusiast I have attended a hell of a lot of live music experiences.
A great answer, Paul. Until recently, for decades I was a regular concert-goer to the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra as well as chamber music concerts presented by (mainly) overseas artists but COVID started getting in the way two or three years ago and many concerts were cancelled, so eventually I decided 'enough was enough' and I no longer go. I do have a very large record collection (CDs and SACDs) as well as file downloads so I spent much of my time listening to recordings through my high-end equipment and find the experience immensely enjoyable. (I am also hoping to have a DirectStream MK II DAC fairly soon).
I basically agree with this person, but in my case I typically listen to the content and not the reproduction. If I was all about the HiFi reproduction, I would spend much of my listening time unhappy with the result. There are so many deficienties in the recording process, starting with microphones and ending up with the mastering process. Unfortunatly there are many subjective pieces to this puzzle before reproduction is even dicussed. Anyone can go crazy critical with the whole process of recording and reproduction. I find that I can enjoy the content from most systems. I try not to analyze every detail of a system because that seems to only leed down the path of dissapointment. Once you train yourself to point out system issues you will always be dissapointed, even million dollar systems are not perfect. I hope I never get to the point that I can't simply enjoy the content.
I agree with Paul, I think it depends on the music you listen to. I agree classical is likely the hardest to reproduce.
I absolutely agree with both positions. Real is best for classical music, yet if what one can access is only reproduced performances, then so be it. I live in the sticks of South Carolina. Major orchestras and venues are a long way away, so it's only once a decade that I get to do that. We have a local symphony that is very good, and we are season subscribers. However I am so glad that I can get my Mahler, Mozart, Bach, Bruch, etc. fix anytime I want to. I have spent a lot of time and dollars over 50 years to get the system where it does a pretty good simulation of a live performance. Certainly not perfect, but I do enjoy it immensely. I believe there are countless other audiophiles around the country who would love to hear it live, but geography makes that a distant dream.
I was gonna see The Cure. The ticket prices were outrageous. I used the money and bought a Roland digital piano.
Todays Concert ticket are off the charts.. ✌
You can buy the piano anytime. The Cure will be gone one day and you’ll say,,,damn …why didn’t I go? Live music is also something permanent too. Something you can talk about and share.
Ticket prices are insane. I far prefer seeing bands in my home theater. No crowds, no pot smoke, no drunks, no waiting in lines being searched. I can adjust the sound levels so as not to have to wear hearing protection. Orchestra's, on the other hand, I do enjoy on the rare occasion
@@scottyo64 reminds me of my time in London as a student and at concerts in the Brixton Academy and many other crazy dives. Too old for the dodgy places too…….
I think that it depends on the type of live music. With mixed pop music, it was never live, so more of art on a spatial audio canvas. With a small number of instruments in a room, one can get pretty close with a very good system (plus get rid of people chatting in the background). With an orchestra at a large venue, it's extremely difficult. People's brains are incredible as to how they process the sounds. This is a bit like hearing a conversation in a crowd of people talking. I have heard recordings where the mikes seem to be further away from the instruments to try to capture the room sound. The instruments sound rubbish. When mikes are placed closer to the instruments, the instruments sound more real, but lack the hall sound. I must admit that I find classical orchestral music a bit boring, even when live. I also remember going to a Pat Benatar concert in Hammersmith Odeon in London. Just a mass of sound in mono coming from the PA system at the front. I didn't enjoy it at all so never went to another such concert. However, I did enjoy the Jean Michel Jarre concert in the Docklands (London) which was synchronized to fireworks and a light show. It was also fun watching a world firework competition in Toronto, which was synchronized to music over the radio. Italy won that year (which was the one we saw). If I want the experience, live would be great (though I find the seats too small for me, with my knees crushing against the seat in front). If I want the good music, I prefer a very good system.
I think many audiophiles disregard the needed effort to search in the very large global library for best recordings of a certain piece of classical music - and that's a pitty as there is huge differences there! One of the best is Prof. keith Johnson, Reference recordings. And, no matter what system one has at home, if the room acoustic do influence just a bit too much, then the experience at home will suffer. I experience that my system with top quality recording sounds significant stronger, with higher clarity and dynamics, than sitting in a non-optimal seat on 20th row in the concert hall.
Big disatvantage at live concert is that you always have to sit at the right position in order to hear all details. And that is not possible always unless you’re a conductor.
Steely Dan comes to mind…studio is way better than live…if you can find live…and I gotta say my Home theatre 7.2.2 playing back a well recorded video of the Berlin Symphony sound very Concert Hall like , yes I said video…it’s not live but close..
As a professional musician, I’m use to playing live music, classical or otherwise, and while I appreciate listening to it in a venue, here is something that apparently no one ever really ask. Should recorded music strive for that kind of “sound” you hear in the live venue or should it be its own entity. In other words, should live music be enjoyed for what it is and recorded music be enjoyed for what it is without attempting to combine the two?
Personally, I say the latter. The reason is simple, as stated by Paul. Recorded music will never approach the liveliness or the dynamics of a live venue. It may come close at times but it simply can’t achieve that level of live sound. And it shouldn’t! Think of it this way: The next time you go to a live music event, try listening to it critically as you might with a home setup. Do you hear, say, woodwind or brass players inhale before playing their notes? Do you hear bows sliding against the strings during quiet passages? What about the nuances of a vocalist? Fingertips sliding over guitar strings? In a live event, you just aren’t going to hear those things - in most situations. In a recording, you can hear those things depending on the quality of the recording and the resolution of the equipment.
My point is that a live event and a recording (studio or live) of that same music are two completely different moments with two different “outcomes”. If it’s true that a recording will never come close to a live event, then the same must be true (to an extent) that a live event will never come close to a recording. Live events should be appreciated for what they are (not recordings with their characteristics) and recordings should be appreciated for what they are (not live events with their characteristics).
The next time anyone goes to a live concert, as yourself this - do you want what you hear live to be exactly like what you hear on your system? For me, I would say no. As glorious as a live concert can be, I don’t want that coming from my system because my system lets me hear it from a completely different perspective with its own strengths and weaknesses. And besides, no one would want a live event to sound like it’s coming from a pair of speakers.
OMG .... don't tell the audiophiles that!
You might be amazed how much money, effort and ego is spent trying to replicate the live experience from a pair of lollipop speakers, over powered amplifiers and massively expensive RCA cords....
Without there being any consensus on what at-home listeners would want to emphasize in a recording, one could argue that in portraying music, acoustic or electric, associated with a live setting, it may be best to try to create with as much fidelity as possible simulacra of the typical live listener experience, while understanding that listening positions and spaces certainly vary.
It's one thing if multiple 'reconstructions of recordings of live music or a studio experience of a particular piece were clearly marketed and offered in a differentiated manner to consumers, from among which each person could choose their sonic preferences for recordings; but for, say, classical music or jazz, better IMO to offer a 'consensus' reproduction of the live event, for which the best foundation is probably the aforementioned 'generic live experience vantage point.'
Obviously if one were say, the Beatles creating Sgt Peppers, or Pink Floyd creating Dark Side of the Moon (highly synthetic compositions), the creators are starting with compositions played in a way distinct to the creators' idiosyncratic visions, with a strong studio construction creative component involved, so the point I was making earlier would be moot, as there's no commonly-understood foundation for what's being intended to be recreated in the musical experience. But for pieces that start out in an 'unmanipulated' (or less manipulated) live setting, if the baseline of the live listening vantage point is abandoned, where would the manipulation reasonably stop?
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I'd say that most audiophile consumers, in their heart of hearts, know the limits of their systems and are not unreasonable in expecting their memories/imaginations filling in the rest, that is the sizable gap between stereo presentation and live listening experience. There are exceptions, but most audiophiles I know don't harbor the degree of delusion you favor thinking they have.
@@maxhirsch7035
You may be correct. We all tend to exaggerate common experiences ... for example: the cop who treats everyone like a criminal or the judge who thinks everyone is lying. I actually do try to avoid that simplistic vision when I can.
However, this experience is very compelling.
In these comment sections alone I routinely find people much further out on the limb than I expect. Many actually demonstrate a rather tenuous grip on reality. I won't trouble you with a list of examples but there are quite a few and most of them, rather sadly, confirm my worst versions of things.
It has now reached the point where the reaction to the mere mention of cables making a difference or rolling tubes (or op-amps) in the hope of tuning up a system, the eyeball roll and "here we go again" reaction is on full automatic. And, sadly, very few provide me with the pleasant surprise of exceeding that expectation.
This hobby has changed. There has been a massive falling out of even the most basic technical skills. Skills that one might reasonably expect to go hand in hand with the kinds of tasks setting up a high end system would entail. We've fallen all the way from examining schematics and suggesting product improvements (not "mods"... real improvement) to the manufacturers all the way down to arguing the merits of fancy and concomitantly expensive wires. Our lot has changed from a group that manufacturers listen to all the way to being the laughing stock of a good many watercooler discussions.
There are a few ... a scant few ... that I would tag as "Technical Audiophiles" who at least appear to be reasonable both in conversation and goals... but in the years I've been in this hobby, I can now count them on my fingers.
Overall the expectation you cite comes from the utter and far too common failure to prove me wrong.
With respect to the music itself; it's all very simple. If I enjoy a selection or album I will keep it. If I don't I will delete it. Certainly I'm not about to tear up a working system over one bad pressing.
@@maxhirsch7035
I doubt there needs to be a consensus.
While I'm sure we can all agree that we want the best possible representation of a particular song or collection the rest of it is a matter of personal taste and choices. AND... so long as the music is well presented, I'm fine with that.
It is also important to understand that, with the increasing role of mixing engineers as part of the outcome, much of today's available music is not derived from live performances... in fact some of it is so "engineered" as to be impossible to play live without a noticeable loss of apparent talent.
So, we can each simply keep what we like and ditch the rest of it.
What great answer!
@0:40 "Why would I go to great lengths..."
-- Because you can't just decide, at a moment's notice, that you will listen to live music, and have the Enterprise transport you to a concert where a band happens to be performing.
-- Because you do not have to drive (often in traffic, and often for longer than the concert lasts, for the round trip).
-- Because you can't choose which band will be playing the live music.
-- Because you can't choose which songs the band will be playing.
-- Because you can't repeat a song at a live performance.
-- Because you can't listen to a live performance in your underwear.
-- Because you can't pause the live performance, to go to the bathroom, or take a minute to attend to other matters.
-- Because you can't choose the volume.
-- Because you might be alone, and would rather not go to a live event, alone.
-- Because of Covid, you might not want to be rubbing elbows with a crowd.
-- Because some people have physical handicaps that make it difficult to go to a live performance.
-- Because you might not have time to make it an all day event (traveling and a full performance), and have only 20 minutes to listen to a few songs.
-- Because you might have guests over, and want to hear music.
-- Because the band you want to hear broke up or passed on.
Why did Jerome, in Los Angeles, ask his question?
Did he just want to extol the great sound quality of live music? If so, then why ask the benefits of a high-end system, when he has to know the benefits of a high-end system?
I understand wanting the best sound quality.
But I know no one that is so wildly extreme, in that regard, that they will listen only to live music, and with no amplification (concerts with amplification is a form of a stereo, and you are no longer hearing live sound -- you are hearing live performers through artificial equipment -- through their concert hall's speakers).
Even audiophile $billionaires, who can have artists perform live for them in the comfort of their mansions, can't simply have the band of their choice be there at their whim.
The only music I really like live is classical and acoustic jazz. I don't like live music that's amplified. I also listen to music on and off all day long. No one is going to convince me that I shouldn't listen to it on the best equipment I can get. Does the person who wrote in only listen to music one or two days a week?
Having been to over 300 concerts and seeing over 630 bands, there is nothing to beat the live musical experience, is the sound always as good as a recording, no, but that's only half of the "event". I agree 100% classical music is a far better experience live than any recording on any system can give you.
You can go to a hell of a lot of concerts for the price of a pair of FR30
Has anyone tried setting up their stereo on their 25 foot wide patio? It eliminates room walls completely. If you put some plywood behind the speakers you'll get more bass. Maybe taking speakers to the great outdoors (at least on special occasions) is the answer; if the room is the limiting factor, and keeps giving itself away at being a room.
Yes, took my stereo houseboating twice. It was feakin awesome. No Reflections. No neighbour's and lots of beer. Wouldn't hesitate to do it again !!!!
I wonder how animals in the woods, say an open meadow would react to music? We know that bats would find stereos too bright; that's established and it was predictable anyway. Would they try to attack it for invading the quiet of their territory? Would they sometimes enjoy it? Would they be confused or scared of it. Even tube amps, which often have no real electronic signature like solid state amps would sound way too bright to a bat. I notice that bats are mentioned on here often I am really beginning to think that tubes are simply the better device for reproducing audio, in a way that better imitates the way real instruments sound. Some say tubes aren't as accurate, (that's the opposite of what they were saying in the 1980s 90s when "tubes tell the truth" was the belief of many) but do acoustic instruments in real life have an electrical solid state sound to them, or the paper thinness or edge accentuation, or stinginess on warmth? We live in a crazy world, and is crazy ever considered accurate? My exceptionally clean solid state equipment does have that ultra purity that can tickle you on every note, but I have come to realize, especially lately, that instruments simply sound more believable with tubes and the slight but audible additives you can hear with solid state gear. I prefer the timbre of tubes, even if it isn't quite as clean. I was once a real "clean" freak as far as sound. I never thought I'd get like this, but I know what I hear. A good tube amp without solid state's additives, just sounds more genuine to me; I'm sure.
_"Has anyone tried setting up their stereo on their 25 foot wide patio?"_
I suppose that would depend largely on how much contact with the police and angry neighbours you find tolerable.
Those with 25 foot wide patios are not likely to have close by neighbors. I can't imagine big spacious estates with large patios that have neighbors within ear reach. Logic...again.
It's potentially troublesome going out to see live music if you like to have a couple of toddys as part of the experience. For the cost of one dui you can buy an awful lot of hifi equipment, which would be just fine for most people's listening pleasure, and you don't have to leave the house.
Deepnds on the genre like you said....jazz sounds so much better live from big band to small trios and much more vibey to be honest.
But something like contemporary dance music (disco, house music etc) from the last fifty years? Sounds way better pre -recorded hence why DJs became so important. There are some amazing sound systems these days and with the right DJ it can be a sublime experience.
For one, I don't have to be stuck in traffic for an hr just to sit in a sea of people hoping I can filter out all the noise while trying to focus on the music. If there is one boring piece, there is a chance to fall asleep, hasn't happen to me yet but never say never.
Paul... I am surprised by your comments about Taylor Swift and such requiring the level of equipment you clearly are in favor of. I would suggest, if you want to hear Taylor swift reproduced the way it sounds in the studio... BUY studio level equipment...NOT audiophile equipment.. after all the mix engineer and mastering engineer would have a very different array of equipment that they would mix on. I would guess that your own recording studio is more studio level equipment rather then your audiophile listening room ..
Live only works when our taste matches the concert schedule. For great music ANY TIME, we need the convenience of a home system. The home playback can also generate great pleasure - just not the same. The reasons are far more than the sound. Repeatability is another HUGE difference.
Let's forget about large scale classical for a moment, since your living room is never going to sound like a large concert hall and reproduce the scale of a whole symphony orchestra. Can you reproduce something more intimate like a Jazz quintet compellingly? For the most part you can, with good enough equipment. Can you reproduce a grand piano so that it sounds like a real one is right in your room with you? Perfectly maybe not, but close enough to be convincing enough to maybe fool someone at times. Solid state equipment with their usual paper edge thinness and general greediness with warmth is not what you'd use for piano. Especially someone who uses the low keys a lot, like McCoy Tyner. Can you reproduce a singing voice so that it sounds like it is believably right there in the room with you? Yes, it can be done quite persuasively, if the equipment is good enough. Any peaks in the frequency response or electronic signature will give it away as a reproduction. When you get to a certain level of reproduction and sound quality, the reaction is not "darn it doesn't sound real". The reaction is pleasure and amazement at how real it does sound... Getting an amazing amount of realism in audio is not a hopeless cause.
Lots of people out there with equipment that isn't good enough. Equipment that was a mistake, or synergy mistakes. The people who do listen to large scale classical, and sink money into great equipment instead of once and done concert tickets, have a continual enjoyment, that doesn't end with yhe "Finale". They buy that level of equipment because it gets them "closer" to the illusion of a live orchestra playing. Is there anything strange with getting closer? Much closer?
Frankly many classical recordings are not great. Some are just bad. Especially the ones recorded in concert halls. But opting out of a good home system and limit your listening to live venues is pretty, pretty weird to me. I really don’t like having to hear sneezing, coughing, chatting, seat rustling around etc. yeah nice to see a concert and I do frequently but I enjoy the music the best at home.
That thing about walking down a city street, or any street for that matter - - there's absolutely no mistaking someone banging away on a real drum set with their window open or in their garage with the door up, one can discern real drums/cymbals and such without much problem - - I don't ever remember being fooled by someone blasting their stereo - not that I've probably ever heard an absolute reference system being blasted via an open window - although perhaps something like the flagship MBL's with their massive dynamic range blasting a recorded drum solo "might" get it done, but even that's a "maybe" imho.
Most audiophiles find true drum and cymbals to bright for their liking.
Short of hiring, say, a string quartet to play in your living room,
you really can't know the full scope of the difference.
However, it is still plain that the difference is significant.
Paul, you are incorrect. There is a system today that recreates exactly what it sounds like to be in a concert hall, whichever hall that the recording happens to take place. It can even recreate the giant sound of pipe organs found in humongous churches all over the world.
It’s the worlds most accurate doing system that eliminates all cross talk and gives the headphone experience in three dimensional space.
This system is able to produce 3 1/2 Hz to nearly 40 KHz almost ruler flat. 🎉
Live music is best and a lot more fun for me. I live for the live music experience. I have been fortunate to have been to hundreds of concerts over fifty years. I am selective now as most bands don’t exist and Ticketmaster is a rip-off. Being an audiophile I get the best of all worlds.
There is a huge difference between live and home music, no matter how good your hifi system might be...
In the live venue you are hearing what the musicians want you to hear.
In the home experience you are hearing what the recording engineers want you to hear.
Not the same thing ... often not even close.
(Pop music doesn't count here, since you are essentially listening to the digital recording in the concert halls while the performers dance and lip-sync along)
The last two live performances I have attended have been awful. World famous performers but sound volume was at hearing damage level with many audience members sitting with fingers in ears.
@@jim9930
_"a living room is simply too small to reproduce even the best recordings"_
You'll get no argument from me on that one. Realism isn't much of a goal. But it can still be plenty enjoyable.
Spent my career doing repair and some design work on audio, computers, two-way radio and office equipment. I don't know if I'm retired or just plain tired...
@@jim9930
Glad to hear you're up and around again ... I know the road back from serious injury and it absolutely is not fun.
Unfortunately my part of the industry was not known for making millionaires... but it was an enjoyable and challenging career that kept my interest, so I'm happy to call that "success". Electronics got me started in the audio thing, did some early design work in the later 70s that produced a couple of patents. Then money and choices relegated it to hobby status as I headed up a national service department in an office automation company until the later 2000s when I rejoined this mess to do in-home service and installations... Now in retirement, I'm consulting on some Class D projects and finally content to just listen to the music.
As the ancient curse says "May you live in interesting times".
Or lying?
@@sidesup8286
I know that you can't comprehend the idea of someone being smarter than you, but the truth is that it's actually rather easy.
I can appreciate classical in a music hall with a 100 players but was never a fan when they joined rock bands like Metallica or Dream Theater outside of those classical halls. I also know unless I set up a 100 speakers in a special acoustic room its not going to sound like you were there. Anything that was recorded or played through a sound system can be recreated, easy.
One doesn’t need 100 speakers to recreate a concert hall experience. Just 7 drivers and a tuned listening chamber.
Perfectly agree.
No mention of room acoustics, the average listening room will never sound like a purpous built concert hall like the Royal Albert Hall for example. Spending thousands on a hi fi system has to include some thought for your room acoustics otherwise you will not reap the benefits of your system.
No but a purpose built and tuned two channel small listening chamber can recreate what’s its like to be in a huge concert hall.
Live is great but not in all cases. Crowd ambience can ruin a performance or a loud section of the music in the venue may hit your ears wrong. Benefits of speakers is it’s a personal experience with the person the the music no distractions. No crowd ambience unless part of the track. If something hits yours ears wrong turn the volume down or skip the track. Only alternative in live performances is earplugs or leave the venue a short time or leave all together.
LA could have some of the best places to listen to music there is . Cant beat a handful of great musicians .
Live music is always better. Live is not always an alternative.
Not watched the episode yet. Live acoustic music Yes! Not all live bands are playing live. Where I get to listen to music, house, car etc, whatever the platform, I've got music.
I have a great system
It sounds amazing
That being said when I go see Phish in an 18,000 seat arena it is no contest
Phish PA buries it
I've not been to a live music concert for many years, but surely you're listening to the quality of the system used to amplify the live music? ... And I'm pretty sure that my Hi-Fi is better than a crappy PA system! 🤣
I wouldn't take that bet ... Sound Reinforcement has come a long way in recent years. Digital processing, line arrays, distributed amplification, lighter more portable equipment... and on and on, will now easily give the best home systems a good run for their money.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I'm NOT convinced! 🤣
@@marcse7en
I didn't expect you would be. But, it is true. Just think about the equipment used to make that prize recording of yours...
As they say hifi is only an interpretation.
Not a reproduction.
Most of the time i listen on my phone.
I disagree, Live music doesn't always sound better. I was recently at a Lindsey Stirling concert in Sopot (Poland) and, like at the last few concerts, it was too loud. I was a bit farther from the stage than the engineers, so I think they heard the same as me. In many songs the lyrics were incomprehensible, the same songs sound better at home. Classical concerts are a different story, they actually give a completely different impression live.
That's exactly what Paul said in the video.
I just watched a Lindsey Stirling video performance the other day on CZcams.
Horns > horns > horns..
Live music..??
I am not a people person.😀
Hate groups and crowds.😡
I have no friends..👍😎🤗
Let’s keep it that way..👍😀
There is a tombstone in a smaller graveyard not too far from me ...
"People didn't like me.
The feeling was mutual"
Thinking I might get a version of that on my own stone.
Taylor swift sounds bad anywhere. Get her some Hokas.
first
🙄
I can prefer hifi to live for a few reasons: Bad venue room acoustics, bad PA mix, PA sound mixed to mono, people talking, people blocking the view by holding their phones over their head to take videos they may watch only once, overpriced tickets , parking & food.
A well recorded concert will be 2 channel, 3 channel, 5 channel on blu ray or 4k. It can be enjoyed often. A live show can only be heard and/or seen once.
I adore live music but cannot of course always access the concerts I want to go see - so recorded music is the only alternative. In addition, unfortunately but for sure, not all artists are as good live as they are in the studio 🫣😢