The Once and Future Roman Rite: What We Lost from 1948 to 1962 and Why We Should Recover It Today
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- This lecture was given at Most Precious Blood of Jesus parish in Pittsburgh, which is run by the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. The topic is what the Roman rite lost between 1948 and 1962 and why we should recover it today. In order to impose reasonable limits, the focus is on the Mass, and, more particularly, Palm Sunday, the Easter Triduum, the Vigil of Pentecost, Corpus Christi, and the feast of the Holy Innocents, followed by five general features of Mass. Lastly, Dr. Kwasniewski turns to some practical and canonical issues, including the question of what kind of permission is necessary in order to recover these lost elements.
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Personal Website: www.peterkwasn... | Composer site: cantabodomino.... | Publishing: osjustipress.com/
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We left the NO during the pachamama scandal. I just couldn't deal with such blasphemy anymore. My eyes were opened and I felt incredibly robbed. I had attended and only known very modern NO my entire life, 15+ years of Catholic school and 2 degrees from Catholic universities, my mom taught CCD for 40 years and we grew up right across the street from our parish, and here I was having no idea what this beautiful form of Mass was at all. Everything was brand new and foreign to me. Suddenly all my sacraments and my children's sacraments felt so empty. We've been very happy at our FSSP parish, the church family has immersed us, the traditions and beauty have now become our home. And the day after Ash Wednesday they locked down our church until May. We missed all of Lent and Holy week. My heart was broken the entire time. What a crime that anyone should interfere in anyone's free exercise of worship and religious liberty!
I agree: Pope Francis has pushed more and more Catholics toward tradition and away from the insanity of 50+ years of failed modernization, embodied in this pontificate.
@@DrKwasniewski I completely agree. There RCC isn't even recognizable from a TLM standpoint. In my scattered mom moment, I sent your conference to my wonderful priest Father Jackson. Then when I picked up my copy of Nothing Superfluous, as I'm halfway through it, it was face down and I saw your comment on the back. I'm sure he got a good chuckle that his parishioners are paying such good attention to everything. I will say as a new TLM, it's a little overwhelming but in a good way. Our Lord deserves nothing more than the beauty of the complexity of the old Church.
God love love. I was birm in 1961. By 1983 after going to a sung Mass at Hampstead Heath I discovered what I was looking for...continuity. The filthy novus ordo world gave free reign to the chaos and a free for all. If Bugnini could so freely destroy what was then anything was allowed. The fat loser priest who tried to sexually abuse me. The coffee table masses, clown masses. The religious sister in jeans tee shirt, no bra and red dyed hair.
The mandatum was also copied by monarch.
SSPX held masses all throughout lockdowns. Find a chapel if it happens again.
Absolutely fascinating. I was raised in the Church from 1954 until about 1969 or so, when all the incomprehensible changes were taking place. I have barely any memory of the Masses from that era, and when I returned in 2019 had no real sense of the Mass, only that some things felt quite off. I had no idea of all the changes that had ensued after the NO was instituted, and no idea that the TLM was brought back. Our pastor uses some of those older rubrics, such as bowing to the altar at the Oremus, and the Confiteor just prior to Holy Communion. This will be my first Easter in this traditional parish and I'm looking forward to it very much.
“…it burns our time like incense…”
Simply beautiful
I loved that line. Best argument against using lay extraordinary ministers of holy communion at Novus Ordo masses to save time.
Pope Pius XII is such a fascinating figure, simultaneously inspiring and dumbfounding. I did hear Taylor Marshall say that it seemed like his decision to allow liturgical changes occurred after his severe stomach ailments had set in. Maybe he falsely trusted Bugnini. But now here it’s interesting to learn that he started that commission in the 40s at a time he was in good health. Pius XII also was granted the vision of the Miracle of the Sun privately in the Vatican Gardens. What does this all mean?
I was cradle and baptized TLM but grew up Novus Ordo among Dominicans and was matriculated by them too.
It wasn’t until I saw Leonard Bernstein’s “Mass” that I soon realized just how Vatican II have become more about appearances and bogus flourishes… Pretty soon I was finding it hollow and it’s becoming no different than Bernstein’s musical. -- It was depressing me.
Then one fine Christmas Day morning, after having been away for decades, I walked back into a TLM church and found myself home again.
And there I remained. Hehe!
How do you propose to continue under the recent ‘restrictions ‘?
We find the Latin Mass wherever it is and we adhere to it for dear life.
We are all deceived, when I started attending a so call latin mass in Mumbai not 1952 May be a 1962 it was so Reverend and it dazzle me I felt God was adore and from thence onwards I was searching and when travel
Abroad got a taste further… covid got us on mass and Latin mass beats all the NO ones … I pray the TLM mas comes back … my missal of 1952 by father Lasance my consolations
At Fatima we were warned
But the Immaculate Heart of Mary with triumph in the End where she will bring rule of king of kings our lord Jesus Christ 🙏🏽🙏🏽in the mean time penance and rosary
I mean 1945
Love your talks and your books! You are a Knight for Tradition!
Thank you! 😊
God bless you for carrying on in this time of utter darkness.
Peter is the modern Michael Davies. He and Taylor Marshall are true heroes for taking up this cause.
I went boarding school with the Benedictines in 1942. I only appreciated my good fortune later. What we have now is not to be compared. The old liturgy can come back at once for me
it's time for Catholics to wake up and be vocal about insisting that the old rite be restored
Be specific with your prayer requests as God will give us everything we ask for as long as we remain in a State of Grace. My prayer is that the old rite will be restored throughout the Universal Church throughout the World. Only in this way can ALL Catholics, regardless of the vast differences of vernacular languages, will finally be able to PRAY TOGETHER AGAIN in the one Official Language of Holy Mother Church: LATIN. Amen 🙏🏼
Re the tones used in the chanting of the Gospel: this is my parish, that God generously led me to.
Canon O'Connor has a beautiful voice, but has the rare & highly prized quality of melancholy sound. I was astounded. When he sang the higher tone, there was an intense anguish to it that pierced my soul. This contrasted with Canon Avis's cello like baritone, chanting as Christ. I fell on my knees and wept, fully entered into that terrible day at the foot of the Cross.
It's worth traveling to Pittsburgh to experience Holy Week at Most Precious Blood. It is beauty worthy of God.
Having "jumped ship" from the Novus Ordo in 1990, this wolf was a 1962 Catholic for 10 years or so in the SSPX. But the sacristan in Kansas City, Dick Slattery, always left for Holy Week, and I wondered why. After the turn of the century and many discussions with this man, it began to dawn on me that the pontificate of Pius XII was not the epitome of Christendom, to say the least. History, I rest assured, will see this pontificate not only as the beginning of the prevailing liturgical anarchy, but also as a disaster for exegesis and real history. Pius XII's musing over the "Big Bang" and the possibility of "biological evolution" have done untold damage to this day.
As for the Liturgical Anarchy, Eugenio Pacelli was surrounded by it when he was Apostolic Delegate to Bavaria in the 1920's. In nearby monasteries guitars were being strummed and priests celebrating facing the people and uttering the vernacular. Mediator Dei was not so prophetic after all, as Pius XII knew exactly what direction things were headed. Meanwhile, he tried to be the pope of compromise, allowing the liberal faction to fester while tossing bones of reassurance to the disturbed.
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us. You are our only hope!!
Ridiculous.
Plus XII was a total disaster. His negotiations of treaties with fascists in Italy, Germany, Spain etc under Pius XI was a catastrophic geopolitical error. Allowing German Catholics to join the Nazi Party in 1933 was utter blasphemy and quashed Catholic opposition to Hitler He also let Bugnini's nose under the tent. And yes his tolerance/endorsing Darwinian philosophy another blasphemous philosophical disaster for Catholics. Not to mention his refusal to Consecrate Russia. Total disaster of a papacy. Set the standard for what was to follow.
@@mattrob19742008
You are over the target. You can add to that list Divini Aflante Spiritu, which imported Bultmann into Biblical exegesis and opened the door to the "long ages" interpretation of Genesis. Also Sacramentum Ordinis, a very subtle attack on the Sacrament of Orders that Traditional Catholics use to defend the highly problematic New Rite of Ordination, which is ABSOLUTELY opposed to the canons of Trent. And of course, it was under Pius XII that religious orders were allowed to have bank accounts and launder filthy lucre, and the Vatican Bank was underwriting Big Pharma. He also applauded the highly problematic "revelations" to Maria Valtorta, and baptized the "Big Bang" theory in an article to the Bulletin for Atomic Scientists. Then there was his endorsement of Dag Hammarskjold of the UN.
You are correct that Pius XII did a lot to set up the WW2 lines of demarcation. And his political strategy set the precedent for the "lesser of two evils" line that Americans have been using to try and keep the "flaming liberals" from high office. Hey there, Pro-Lifers, how has that worked out??
@@whitewolf1298 yes excellent points and a lot of wreckage to survey. Thanks for sharing..The triple whammy of Darwin, Big Bang, Protestant German critique of the Bible was devastating. Being open to something is de facto approval which of course it was taken to be and taught in seminaries. Markan primacy et al. Apostolic Tradition, as a reliable source, effectively died under Pius XII.
Any sources about guitar masses et al in the nineteen twenties?
The One, True, Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church!
Praying for the spread and preserve of traditional Latin mass 🙏❤
Always!
Thank you.
This is so enlightening.
I had no idea that the changes were so recent!
Going back now to re-read "The Stripping of the Altars" (Eamon Duffy) and Father Adrian Fortescue's book on the liturgy.
You can read more about the pre-55 richness in my most recent book "Once and Future Roman Rite" chapter 12. God bless!
PRACTICAL QUESTION: This is so good to know! Even our traditional Mass was altered in the 50s and 60s. When I read the 1945 Missal, it is different from what we do today as a congregation. For many of the responses that the people say now it says, "The server responds." Should we be more silent as a congregation like it was in the past, including the singing? I know my pitiful voice adds nothing to our angelic all male schola.
There is a benefit to the silent low Mass with just the servers making the responses. On the other hand, there's something wonderful about a High Mass where the congregation joins in with the Kyrie, Gloria, etc., and the "Et cum spiritu tuo" and other such responses. Both have their place.
We must return to the Missale Romanum Edition Typica of 1920.
Thank you Dr. Kwasniewski. A great video. It would have interesting to hear about the lost vigil of All Saints on Oct 31. Looks like I have some research to do
Yes: many vigils were dropped by Pius XII. Another example of useless "streamlining."
@@DrKwasniewski Where can I get English translation of the rubrics of Pre 1955 Missal. I use Pre 1955 Missal. I was a novus ordo priest. Now I am a traditional Carmelite priest
Rich and beautiful. The Holy Ghost is working through you, Peter. Thank you. +
I was Baptised in 1960 in St. Rita's RC Church and I had no idea how significant that was. I was just cutting my teeth of awareness in the Latin Mass when it was taken away. I saw my family and the entire extended family fall away at the great pleasure of all protestants, which looking back I could see but wasn't aware as all of the distractions of the anti war chaos and complete lunacy in soceity in general. After coming back through a conversion experience in '95, I fell away again after 5-6 years. I've been back for 4.5 years. During this time God was laying a good foundation and led me to another major conversion. Won't go through every detail, but the fruit of it all had me spendingv12-14 hours a day, feeding and spiritually nourishing the homeless and just before the lockdown, had me give out 150 miraculous medals right up to the day of lockdown. I knew none of this was a coincidence. I was then overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit and He infused the knowledge that ALL of our problems in the Church boils down to ONE thing and ONE thing that all of the errors that have occurred flow...That the Dogma of the Faith has been cancelled. He gave me to know that Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is Bound in Heaven for all Eternity AND IS STRICTLY Enforced by Jesus WITHOUT exception! God doesn't change or make deals with the devil but the Church HAS. This is WHY it devolves so deeply....AND...it will NOT change unless this highly exalted Dogma in Heaven is recovered. If not, whoever doesn't hold it firmly are NOT SAVED, nor can they be. Dogmas are strictly enforced! Marian and Eucharistic Dogmas are all on the same level. Hardly anyone is saved! That's why Mother cries blasphemies against Her IS A SIN AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT, HER DIVINE SPOUSE. Take Jesus' advise in Matthew 10:28. "Fear no man who can only kill the body. Rather, Fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in gehenna." Fear of the Lord is MANDATORY. The sinless Virgin said it too! SHE FEARED GOD and had NO SIN! Luke 1:49-50. God announces His Prerequisite for Mercy and ultimately salvation. THE FEAR OF THE LORD. Pious Reverence causes Humility. Look around you. Who qualifies? Frighteningly True. Lord help us. Amen. +
Why can we not ban hand communion and standing. Much of the rest will follow
Thank you for another excellent video!
As you point out, one of the greatest liturgical injuries came during Pius XII’s reign. One third of the Breviary was removed. Most Bible readings were cut in half or more.
When the Council fathers asked at Vatican II for more Bible readings, this is what they were asking to be restored.
Restoration leads to Recovery.
Deo Gratias Dr. Kwasniewski
i just realise that Novus ordo is not Catholic since i came to the Latin Mass....
I’ve been learning so much as of late... how much have we lost? Can we get it back? I went to a high school named after Roncalli. I was just reflecting on the fittingness given how many people from my high school have since left the faith
We are indeed getting it back, Deo gratias!
This touches my heart! It reminded me of my life before I became Catholic! It scares me to think what else might be done to the Mass!
Thank God I found this blessed channel 💕
Thanks for sharing this! I love to see what you are doing!
Get Dr K’s new book ‘Bound by Truth’ Authority, Obedience, Tradition, and the common Good. The Bishop John Iffert of Covington Ky should be sent this book by the community he just cancelled as he clings to modernity without realizing the ongoing statistical demolition articulated by Kenneth Jones. We continue to pray for him.
Given the changes made in the early 1900s such as Pius X’s changes to the rite of consecration of a church, couldn’t we equally argue that anyone can legitimately return to pre-Pius X books as well? This particularly has always struck me as the true beginning of the liturgical revolt especially due to his claim that all who refused to switch to the new breviary did not fulfill their canonical obligation which seems to directly contradict the “sacred and great” principle.
The traditional movement has evolved in "waves." The first wave was resisting compulsory vernacularization and abandonment of chant (founding of Una Voce, mid-1960s, before the Novus Ordo). The second wave was fighting for the traditional Latin Mass, period. The third wave has been restoring the pre-55 uses in the Mass. The final wave will be achieving maximum consistency in all the sacramental rites, blessings, and Divine Office. However, the Divine Office will present a special set of challenges.
We must not forget the changes of Urban VIII, who changed the hymns in the Divine Office, as well
@@DrKwasniewski Good afternoon Dr/ Kwasniewski, I pray all is well with you. I know you must be fielding many questions these days and I thank you for your study and clarity. My name is Br. Stanislaus Guadalupe and I am an Old Roman. We are the remnant of the original Ultrajectine lineage and I wonder if you would do me the favor of contacting me through my email littlemarianson@gmail.com God bless you and God love you!
@@fallingcrane1986 then reverse Pius V’s abolition of many sequences 😉
Well ...st.pius the x made good reforms not bad ones .....if you point anyone who made reforms to be bad and you can't discern attaining perfection through reforms from destruction through reforms ...you will end up criticising even Christ redemption as the Jews did ...
Going backward is not good
Discernment is needed before criticising all reforms ...many are done for the good of church militant...especially what st pius the x did ....think before you criticize
Wow this brother is a great orator.
Thank you so much!
By Decee in one of its sessions the binding Coucncil of Trent forbade any changes to the Liturgy declaring, "Should anyone add or remove from this Missal, let him be Anathema!" Then St. Pius V gave us "Quo Primum". What part of this did the Church not understand? Now we are enduring the wrath of God and that of Sts. Peter and Paul. The Council of Trent remains, in full force.
Peter, if Pius XII thaught he was restoring rituals to the liturgies of Holy Week (as opposed to inventing new ones), can you speculate on his motivations? Why did he feel it would be better to restore older rites than to maintain the rites as they were established since the Council of Trent (if I have that right?)? The Byzantine Rite has no communion at all on Good Friday, but I'm not sure if the Eucharist must be consumed even from the tabernacle on Holy Thursday so that, as you say in this lecture, Christ is completely gone from the church. I would have to look that up. Fascinating talk.
In most cases, he was not restoring ancient practice, but replacing ancient practice with modern liturgists' ideas of how things should be. For example, having everyone renew together their baptismal promises was never done in the Church. That's taking what was proper to catechumens and imposing it on the whole community, for the sake of "active participation." Is there anything wrong with renewing promises? No, but the Easter Vigil never did it, and it's a weird break in the flow of the ceremony. It seems better to renew one's baptismal promises on the anniversary of one's own baptism. Similarly, Pius XII has everyone say the Our Father together on Good Friday. For everyone to say the Lord's Prayer together at liturgy had never -- I repeat, never -- been done in the Roman liturgical tradition, ever. Is it inherently wrong to do so? No. But there are also legitimate reasons for the Roman practice. Why do we hold our tradition in contempt? There are countless examples of this kind of thing in the Pius XII Holy Week.
HELP US, LORD TO RETURN TO THE TRUE TRADITION AND STAND FIRM TO RETURN OUR CHURCH TO THE PEOPLE.
Correction...RETURN CHRIST'S TRUE CHURCH TO HIS PEOPLE.
WE long to be REUNITED.
Question: certain Pslams were removed because they were considered harmful. How can it be in the Bible and still be considered harmful? This is frustrating.
Exactly. See this article for details:
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-omission-of-difficult-psalms-and.html
@@DrKwasniewski question. I found a St. Joseph's Missal with a publishing date of 1957. I live nowhere near a TLM church. Is this a good book to have? It is both Latin and English. Please note-I'm converting to the Catholic faith. I just couldn't pass up the book.
Amen amen . Viva Cristo Rey
Good.
The recitation of the Confiteor before the Communion of the Faithful was NOT forbidden by the 1960 rubrics. It was merely deemed unnecessary if it had been recited earlier. Priests who retain it violate NO rubric or law. the "Benedicamus Domino" was done away with because nobody could think of a reason why it was there in the first place.
The permission to use the pre-55 Holy Week was not complete, but required the 2008 Prayer for the [Descendants of Jacob] on Good Friday.
One True Faith
33:12 That’s a fantastic point
Ave Maria
I will purchase the book, but I am hoping you also treated the Ember days of Advent. That was a Sacred Tradition, except the Last Saturday of Advent.
Yes, in my book "The Once and Future Roman Rite" I do discuss the Ember Days.
💜🦋love your lectures~
Thank you!
My impression is that the extreme length of these ceremonies led to sparse attendance and the substitution of paraliturgical devotions like Stations of the Cross. I have long wondered how - especially before hand missals were common - average, perhaps largely uneducated congregations dealt with interminable ceremonies entirely in Latin.
I think the picture is more complicated than that.
1. There had been encroaching secularism for centuries. After all, the Triduum used to be holy days of obligation, and that was ended centuries ago... not a good sign. If people had the days off, as with other great festivals, they could easily have gone to church.
2. All the evidence from history -- look at Eamon Duffy, James Monti, Uwe Michael Lang, et al. -- shows that people loved lavish ceremonies and rituals, even if they could not follow "word-for-word." That, after all, is only one way of participating. The pre-55 Triduum ceremonies are very impressive, and I have seen many young people avidly participate in them. Granted, little kids will fall asleep, but that's okay.
@@DrKwasniewski Thank you. I am old enough to be able to ask priests how things were managed in the 30’s and 40’s. To a man they would not say a word. They thought they could erase the past, but that project, Deo gratias, has become a lost cause. (I look forward to your new platform.)
Deo gratias!
Where can I find this Holy Latin Mass of this original Mass
You can search FSSP or SSPX chapels around your area.
Unless you're hours away from any of them, unfortunately as I am in SLC UT with a Bishop who has no interest in wanting to invite a FSSP Church in the dioceses.
Deo gratias❣️🙏
Talk about arbitrary papal rule (Traditionis custodes)...
52:20 I would love to know which monasteries these are!
We lost communion on the tongue+ latin catholic mass+catechism and many other things I fail to remember.
"Major tampering of the liturgy was already happening before Vatican II" - well, everybody who bothers to study this already knows that the Liturgy has developed over twenty centuries. I mean, look at how Pius V tampered with the Liturgy when he brought out the 1570 Missale Romanum.
It sounds like you might want to "bother to study" some more!
If you read Uwe Michael Lang, Alcuin Reid, Michael Fiedrowicz, or any of the serious scholars on liturgy, you will discover that the developments have been rather gradual, cumulative, and jealously guarded once they occur. Nothing like the reforms of the 20th century can ever be seen in earlier history -- especially not under Pius V, who did the opposite of "tampering with the liturgy" in 1570. Instead he purged the traditional missal of errors that had crept in, in order to restore the Roman tradition as fully as possible.
Read more about these things here:
voiceofthefamily.com/st-pius-v-and-the-mass/
www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2022/05/what-really-happened-to-sequences.html
www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2021/12/organic-development-as-useful-metaphor.html
You keep saying these prayers in English so we can see how beautiful they are. Be consistent and say them in Latin
If I had had the time, I would have loved to quote them in Latin. In any case, this is a public educational lecture, not a liturgy. The two are distinct (if you haven't figured that out). In fact, if you bothered to follow my argument, it is that people need both experience and education over a lifetime to appreciate the riches a liturgy has to offer. And so that is why I do lectures like this.
1948: Atomic Age Alterations!
One question I have is how is John XXIII and Paul VI are saints, if they allowed V2 confusion to happened?
Everything was watered down as a result of V2. One major change to the canonization process is that now, only one miracle is required. I believe they also did away with the role of "devil's advocate", a priest or higher cleric tasked with researching and offering evidence that would disqualify the candidate from canonization.
Pope Pius XII made a YUGE mistake when he listened to bad advice and "Restored" Holy Week. The only thing that was "restored" was the movement of the Easter Vigil Mass to midnight, which, in fact, made it "The First Mass of Easter." Everything else was actually an innovation, like the touchy-feely and VERY participative "Renewal of Baptism Promises."
I would really desire to attend a "Pre '55" Holy Week if I could find one that maintains the word "perfidis" and isn't being done by SeVacs.
I completely understand your want. I attended the pre '55 Holy Mass for many years. I am old, and long for Christs' return, to re-establish His true Mass again. Then, Masses were packed: ppl in aisles spilling out into the vestibule, and even past the outer doors. Confessionals took hours as so many waited, row upon row; multiple Priests hearing confessions and ppl stayed after Mass ended for lengthy times in prayer. The many altar boys, and acolytes, served at Mass. Not a lay man or lay woman was present, or tolerated, at any Priestly ceremony. Beautiful choir chants echoed adding to the reverence and beauty of the ceremonies, and Holy Mass. And then came changes!! I pray for your wish to be granted. God bless.
@@nifty1940 Caveat! Caveat! We're not being merely "nostalgic." The Robber Council was INTENDED to keep the Faithful away from what might help them get to Heaven. I, for one, repudiate the Robber Council and every evil that has since been committed in its name!
@@arthurdevain754 You've misinterpreted my empathy of understanding to the original post. I was describing how it once was, and is no longer. It's not nostalgia, but a remembrance of when the church was truly known, loved and respected, as the Mystical Body of Christ. Vat2 is the work of Satan; the post conciliar popes abandoned their true allegiance to their calling, no matter the opposition, excuse or rational. St. Peter, and the Apostles, and Martyrs, gave the heroic example of what true Catholic leader's should aspire to. The present day African, Chinese, and so many other, Martyr's are an example of this. But, our church leadership is silent.
Marlowe is the original playwright of Dr Faustus.
I went to the 62 holy week at least once, maybe twice. The first time I really enjoyed it because I had only experienced the Novus Ordo. The second time, after being more familiar with it, I was struck by the weird Novus Ordo elements in it, like the jarring renewal of baptismal promises, which is just this strange break in the Easter Vigil where the priest turns around and gives a long English exhortation and then we recite English things. To me it was like if in a theater production all the actors broke character and starting chatting with the audience. And then the commerical break is over and they go back into character and turn around and speak Latin again. Incredibly strange! Then the common recitation of the Pater at Good Friday. Also very weird. The blessing of the Palms on Palm Sunday is also very Novus-ish. Facing the people on a table in the middle. It's like a science project or something. So when I was bothered by that renewal of baptismal promises I decided I would never go to a 62 Holy Week again. The Novus Ordo is much more consistent. The Novus Ordo holy week makes sense in the context of the Novus Ordo. The 1962 Holy week doesn't make sense in the context of the TLM. The last 3 years I have gone to the pre-55 holy week and it's 1000 times better. and I would still rather attend a Novus Ordo holy week compared to the 62, it's that bad.
RJC which prayers were said in the Temple in Jerusalem that Jesus attended with His Apostles on the night He was betrayed. Thats the key. They are only in the TLM. The Jewish Passover prayers that were said in the Temple in Jerusalem were also passed over by the Apostles Gentiles were now incorporated into the Passover. Perpetual means until end oif time. Gentile apostasy has happened its called Novus Ordo Vatican11. Imposters entered and Bishops and Priests apostasised.
Si potrebbe averne per favore un testo in italiano o quantomeno in francese?
Ci sto lavorando per conto del dott. Kwasniewski! Presto sarà disponibile una versione italiana del testo della conferenza.
No matter people are so lukewarm these days...
We should also restore the Roman Canon to its purity by rejecting John XXIII's forcing of St. Joseph into the Communicantes.
Absurd.
@@ryanscottlogan8459 Adding St. Joseph to the ancient Roman canon was absurd, but I don't think that's what you meant.
@@MarkWilliams-gy9bi Well guess what.You are not the Pope.Case closed.
Odd what can you possibly have against St. Joseph? From what I understand he is one of the greatest saints! Removing him from anything seems more Protestant than Catholic.
@@RobMathMiller I am in favor of St. Joseph. But to have St. Joseph in the Canon, it seems to me, is against Tradition. Since St. Joseph was not in the Roman Canon for all 2000 years of the Church's History, I think this is sufficient reason to reject John XXIII's unprecedented novelty.
The gates of hell will NOT prevail 🙏🇮🇱💒🛐⛪️
We can thank Satan and the NOVIS ORDO for the gradual but gradual destruction of the Catholic Church and the falling away of Catholics, many forever. EVERYONE OF MY CATHOLIC CHILDREN HAVE LEFT THE CHURCH. I now have an atheist, baptist, evangelical, and a lazy agnostic . Shame on the greedy and self promoting of our clergy. Dear nuns: get your habits back on so the world will respect you, know who you are, (Catholic), and love what you do
Pray Rosaries for them. Consecrate yourself and them to Mary using the de Montfort consecration. Prayer works to bring back your children. My children also had both left the Church. They had zero respect for the Novus Ordo after one of them was abused by more than one NO priest. My husband and I had also left the Church. Our Lady not only brought us back, she introduced us to the TLM. Thanks to her intervention, we now attend an SSPX chapel. Our son has been asking many questions. I’m certain he will soon also return. Sad to say, my daughter died before having a chance to return.
Going from Novus Ordo to TLM is like coming home for the first time. We criticized Protestants for lacking the fullness of the Faith, while we ourselves lacked it as well. Now that we have been introduced to it, we want more. It’s like we were starving and dying of thirst but didn’t know it. Now that we know, we can’t get enough.
Former RC, currently Orthodox. Zero regrets. Service still around an hour and a half long, no innovations ☦️
www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2018/06/the-byzantine-liturgy-traditional-latin.html
The liturgy prior to the council of Trent evolved over centuries from rites described in the Didache to the Tridentine form. This demonstrates the liturgy evolves and there is no reason to assume that Trent was the omega point liturgically speaking. The presenter simply asserts it is so as if were obvious. It is only to those who want to say it is but that does not make it so.
I prefer the old rites and find the current liturgy- especially the music- problematic on so many levels. But that does not mean that anything prior to current liturgy was not in need of reform. The practice of low Mass turned Mass into a spectator sport with a congregation barely attending to it, praying the rosary, daydreaming etc. I recall hearing folks say that they preferred the very early mass because the priest would recite the mass so quickly it was over in les than 25 minutes. While my mother faithfully followed the liturgy in her Saint Joseph's Missal, most people did not. Attendance at High Mass was limited and unless it was a Holy Day of Obligation even during Holy Week the church was not packed. There was an innovation (oh, horror!) called the dialogue Mass, in which the congregation recited the parts normally said by the servers. This simple change made a lot of sense and would today.
There were also accretions to the liturgy prior to Trent too numerous to detail that made no sense (e.g. Ite, missa est, then continuing the Mass). That simply needed reform, changing the liturgy as it had been changed so many times prior to Trent.
The much more complicated issue of Mass as sacrifice vs meal and the tonal change to the text of the Mass seems to me a more legitimate debate opposed to the current debate on form which at times verges on liturgical fetishism.
I'm certainly aware of the changes in the liturgy over time. They are not, nevertheless, incapable of being seen as an organic continuum, as I argue in "The Once and Future Roman Rite" and elsewhere. Even the Low Mass has a natural explanation, and yet it preserves (vestigially at least) all the elements of the Solemn Mass. The rupture that occurred in the 1950s-60s is truly unprecedented in kind and degree.
Moreover, "abusus non tollit usum." The fact that some priests gabbled their morning Masses does not necessitate a massive liturgical overhaul. It necessites moral correction and virtue - rather more difficult aims, but also truer ones. The reform did not get rid of bad habits; it merely shifted them elsewhere.
Regarding perfection, I wrote the following in an article at 1P5 (link below), and want to share it here:
>
onepeterfive.com/mother-maravillas-de-jesus-guarding-the-teresian-reform/
It was the night of Jewish Passover and Jesus and the Apostles went to the Temple for Passover every year Jews celebrated Passover of the Messiah in advance. The Jewish Passover prayers are about His Death. The Lamb was offered and had to be perfect. Those Passover Prayers are Perpetual and can't be changed they were passed over to us
The Jews had true worship Jesus is God and attended true worship. The Temple fell because it was the end of the Symbolic Lamb The Messiah has come and He is the Lamb to be sacrificed.
Pax
I don't follow the Catholic Church anymore I became a Bible Christian recently 7th Day Adventist. We won't be joining Rome and its one world religion.
We were taught as kids the Mass was Christ's and could never be changed.
The real Mass is unchanged. Find a Latin Mass, and leave your heresy.
You left the Church that Our Lord Jesus Himself established???
Was that wise?
Who started the SDA religion?
It certainly wasn't God!
How can you be a "Bible Christian" and a Seventh Day Adventist? The book of Acts explicitly says that Christians met to worship on "the first day". Why wouldn't you follow that example if you believe in the concept of "sola scriptura"?
The Bible is catholic.
It all depends on what you mean by "one world religion". I realize that there is a horrible heresy "one world religion" that demands allegiance to secular false idols. This is of the devil, not God.
HOWEVER, we must realize that Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. It will be a glorious thing for all the world to bow down before Christ the King! That's TRUE "one-world" religion!
Liturgical reforms were also happening before 1948. Pope St. Pius X also made changes to the Breviary and he was not the first pope to do so. Nor was Pope St. John XXIII the first Pope to change the Missale Romanum. Benedict XV published an editio typica in 1920 based on changes proposed by Pius X. Editio Typica containing changes to the mass were also published by Leo XIII and a few popes during the 18th and 17th Centuries. This is in addition to the point that both Pope St. Leo the Great and Pope St. Pius V also engaged in liturgical reform, instituting changes in the mass from that which existed before their pontificate. So, all this is to suggest that development and reform seems to be present in the history of the mass over the centuries. So, why do you have a problem with the reforms made by the popes leading up to and immediately after Vatican II?
The Mass and the liturgy has developed organically over the centuries but there has never been such a drastic change as the one we see with the Novus Ordo.
I hope you watch this video.
@@alhilford2345 So the Church has the authority to makes changes, just not "drastic" ones? How is that in keeping with Pastor Aeternus? Further, if the changes to the mass do not effect the substance of the sacrament, how can those changes be labeled as "drastic"?
This is a long discussion but see here for some indications of why I hold the position I do:
onepeterfive.com/how-much-can-the-pope-change-our-rites-and-why-would-he/
onepeterfive.com/does-pius-vis-auctorem-fidei-support-paul-vis-novus-ordo/
It seems interesting to me that every time there is liturgical reform, it is met with strong resistance. The Tridentine Rite, "the mass of the ages" was resisted for 200 years by the French before it became "mainstream" in the country.
The same arguments were made at the time "it's modern", "we are giving up timeless tradition" "we are losing in reverence" "this new Tridentine Rite is not the real mass, but a false mass that wants to supplant the real faith and tradition" etc etc...
Furthermore, to believe that the TLM is always reverent, is a falsehood. There are proofs of abuses of the TLM in literature.
This obsession of constantly going back in time to "retrieve" the "real mass" will never end until we get to what the first Christian's mass looked like, which is a bear bones minimum of what we have today.
One must not confuse Tradition and tradition.
That being said, I do love the TLM, and when well done, it is beautiful (just like all forms). I do not put one form of rite above another as all can be beautiful, and all can be abused.
Respectfully I would like to push back against your claim.
There is no comparison between the magnitude of earlier liturgical changes and the "reform" that took places after Vatican II. That is a matter of historical record.
Moreover, the situation in France was peculiar, as there were Jansenist-influenced neo-Gallican liturgies that were not, in fact, as authentic or historically rooted as were the old Gallican rites.
The TLM moreover has very particular qualities that make reverence more consistently attainable. This too is beyond dispute.
I discuss all of these matters in detail in my most recent book "The Once and Future Roman Rite" (TAN Books, 2022). If you are really interested in the traditionalist position and why it does not fall apart as easily as your comments suggest, I would recommend this.
tanbooks.com/products/books/tan-books/coming-soon/the-once-and-future-roman-rite-returning-to-the-traditional-latin-liturgy-after-seventy-years-of-exile/
(also available from Amazon, etc.)
@@DrKwasniewski First of all thank you for having taken the time to respond. I am not as learned as you are on the subject matter, not having written a book, but still I do not find your response to be quite accurate either.
The changes implemented by the Council of Trent were met with resistance, not only because there was a "particular situation" in France.
I live in the southwest of the country where it took centuries for the TLM to be more or less accepted. Even today there are some traditions that have not been lost ; traditions that completely change the way the laity experiences the mass.
This was not because of a Jansenist movement, but because the mass was adapted to the way people in this region lived at the time.
Perhaps it is an exception. As I have not researched the matter further, I can only attest to what I know from the region I live in, where the TLM is certainly not the "mass of the ages".
As for the abuses of the TLM, the ressources are numerous, and it was so common that even writers attested to this in their novels.
Thus, the TLM does not necessarily have "very particular qualities that make reverence more consistently attainable."
It was know to all that one of the shortcomings of the TLM was that the laity were not following the mass, but praying the rosary or other devotions whilst waiting for communion.
I have the 1915 missal of my grandmother that has "tips and suggestions" on how to spend the time before receiving communion.
If one truly loves the TLM, then one must recognise its qualities as well as its shortcomings.
I have not yet read your book, so I do not know if you idealise the TLM viewing it as quasi perfection, or if you actually have an objective view on this form.
Again, I am quite fond of the TLM, but it is a rite amongst many that have existed and some that still exist.
It is worth defending it, but not to be blind to its possible negative outcomes that have already been experienced.
@@nerdanalog1707 I do not idealize the TLM, but I do argue strongly for its objective perfections. I'm not trying to sell you a book but if you really want to dig into these questions -- especially the overarching question of why the Novus Ordo is a radical departure from the whole of preceding liturgical history -- please check out "Once and Future Roman Rite." Even if you don't agree completely, you'll find a lot of food for thought, and some rigorous argumentation.
It's not even possible to compare the abuses of the TLM with the global pandemic of abuses in the Novus Ordo for the past 50 years. Really, this is a no-brainer. A gabbled 15-minute Mass (which, by the way, St Alphonsus Liguori had identified as a mortal sin - when's the last time you've heard any claim about the sinfulness of rubrical violations in the NOM?) is still better than the priest who said Mass on a flotation device, or Cardinal Schoenborn holding balloons at a pop Mass, or even simply ubiquitous versus populum and Communion in the hand. Yes, yes, I know "such-and-such used to be done in the ancient church" but there's a reason certain things were discontinued early on and not taken up again until the 1960s (and in quite different ways, for quite different reasons).
I do not see a necessary incompatibility between the devout praying of the rosary and fruitful assistance at Mass. It's not the most liturgical way, but I have done it sometimes with priests who are very very slow in their celebration, and it has helped me to enter into the sacred mysteries.