Refuting Roman Catholicism & Ecumenism: Palamas, Aquinas & Augustine - Jay Dyer
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- #catholic #orthodox #aquinas
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A reply to various so-called Orthodox and Roman Catholic apologist attempts to reply to my essay below. Ultimately these attempts fail because they do not understand hypostatic properties and the orthodox distinctions of will, nature, person and operation. As a result, both faux "Orthodox" and Roman Catholics congeal into a mass lump of heretical perennialism, as generic as their generic theism:
jaysanalysis.c...
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Yes
Found this to be like, one of the worthiest channel on CZcams. God bless You brother. Keep up the amazing work.
Jay, I was raised Baptist but began studying Orthodoxy because of you. I am a fan of your work. Thanks for introducing me to Orthodoxy. I'm now convinced it is the fullness of the Faith.
Adam Ray Jesus is the fullness of the faith.
Hugh Simon You have to have a context in which to properly understand Jesus. I believe the Orthodox Church provides that context.
Adam Ray Or you could just read the Bible.
Hugh Simon I would encourage everyone to read the Bible but the Bible itself says in 2 Peter 1:20 that scripture is not for private interpretation, when it is you end up with a million different denominations and splinter groups like you have in protestantism. We also have to ask the question, how did we get the Bible? The Church and it's liturgy existed before the official scriptural canon. We got the Bible because the Church decided on it. The authority of the scriptures was decided based upon the Holy Spirit leading the Church. The Orthodox Church. Having said that, I can tell that you are a believer in Christ we just disagree on this issue. God bless.
Necromancy? I hope you don't mean venerating dead bodies is bad when they are filled with the grace of God.
Idolatry? I hope you don't mean the presence of images since Solomon's production of images was approved of by God.
And I hope you dont hold a perverse conception concerning the word 'Church' since the true Church is the pillar and ground of truth. And those righteous Christians who are pillars are not separated from the Church, neither do they leave the Church nor do they speak against the Church.
I really admire your learning. I spent 30 years researching certain Christian truths,but it was only on You Tube that I encountered orthodoxy - to which I felt immediately drawn. I have done some reading, but your labours are a divine gift to me. You provide explanations which I would probably never have found. I would love to have an in depth conversation with you. It would help me to connect some dots.
Sad - you can't even make it through *half* of the video and the arguments before thumbing it down. It's been up 10 mins!
Jay Dyer Reason is dangerous to its adversaries.
Big shock, huh.
The_Grass_Roots_0f Old_Hickory--- because he has the spirit of the Antichrist which always drives the one it takes hold of to rebel against what god has instituted. It's only natural that these vile slaves of the Antichrist in their zeal for authority hate the church the lord founded and his followers, and the more one accords himself to the satanic lies the more powerful this hatred should grow.
I've watched this twice very impressed with the explanations I'd love to see more vids seems like all your new vids are about Hollyweird I still enjoy your vids though lol. I'm a Baptist convert to the Catholic church and now I'm attending a orthodox church and love it I think it will take year to reprogram the way I think from a legalistic approach but I'm trying
You're a lover of truth. May God keep you bold and may He bless you with all virtues! 🥇
I have a goal to someday have read, collected, and understood as many books as Jay Dyer has. I love that book collection in the background
@the_bearded_schlub woah, big brain comment. You must be so smart!
@the_bearded_schlub nothing cringe about respecting someone for how much effort they've put into understanding their beliefs and for sharing the sources they've read. Helped me in my journey to Orthodoxy. Cringe is mocking someone on CZcams for having a thankful attitude. God bless you through whatever it is you're going through.
@the_bearded_schlub straw man
@the_bearded_schlub are you illiterate?
Good plan bro, but don't ruin the books by using pens o make notes on them like he does 😉😉😉😉
Great video Jay. Made me ask myself questions I never thought of.
Ha ha I gave this thumbs up before I’d even watched it as I just knew it would be top notch my friend
excellent, Jay. Thanks for clarifying. I see the ramifications of the debate between Palamas and Barlaam and thus the difference between Western and Eastern theology. I am very thankful that God has led me to the Eastern Orthodox Faith.
Thanks for reading All the books Jay! You have NOT wasted your time pursuing God and Truth so passionately
Thank you Jay. This segment is priceless to dispelling confusion. I get sick of profs. always trying to say RC and Orthodox is the same. I have read significant sections of the fathers but stay away from non-Orthodox like Augustine. My hope is to cultivate my Greek, Latin, and eventually Welsh and Old English to try to address modern English/language problems better. I appreciate you taking the time to study the dry west to help walk the west back to the Eastern Church, and also give guys like me something to stand on. We all can't do everything. We need each other. Thanks again.
Ian MaegAoidh you know something? I couldn't agree more they're not the same. czcams.com/video/d07mgLoOW8g/video.html
Thank you! your explanation is so easy to understand. God bless you!
This big thick stack of tomes proves that I am indeed a tome-ist. B-dum-chssss.
18 people adapted an unthinking a priori by actually liking your comment! Did you even listen to his premise!? He didn't merely claim that "books," about Thomas was the end all be all to his pursuit of Truth. Your deduction is immensely found wanting! He searched out the matter and found The Roman Catholic church wanting in regards to Comprehensive church history!
How can they say there are no real distinctions in God and yet believe only the Son became incarnate? Now I see how ADS leads to Arianism.
My first encounter with Jay - 2 mins in and he's got my attention
Are Catholics obligated to believe that the theophanies aren't logos incarnate?
What I believe being an ex atheist then converting, no other faith had physical miracles studied by science that couldn’t be explained. Only the Catholic Church has this. Pretty easy for me.
Thank you Jay for your clarity and diligence with hypostasis and energies distinction... as an ex RC nor embracer of Protestanisms...I came to this posting from a search on weak panentheism and Palamas and the essence/energies distinction and I really needed aid on Trinity presupps... This was a breath of fresh air which cleared fog...making sight so much better.
Much Gratitude!
So Augustine taught that OT theophanies are angelic!!!!!!??????😳😵Damn that sounds gnostic to me. I've always held that Augustine was a "closet gnostic" who never overcame his Manichean past. This provides additional evidence. (Snark mode on) someone should point this out to the Augustine groupies in the reformed tradition)
You know St. Augustine is a saint who was called "Blessed" by the Church?
he's a Saint dude, calm down. he was not a gnostic
Thanks Jay, I just got blasted on twitter for telling an Orthodox user to quit quoting Augustine and causing confusion. I just shared this video. Thanks for all your work.
Getting kicked off Facebook for one month Makes me want to listen to more of your videos.
Does aquinas not distinguish philosophy from dogmatic theology? One proves God is simple but not that he is triune, the other does, one proves God created the world, but not in time, the other does, what aquinas can say about God is limited because of his empiricism, so the trinity is the ultimate mystery.
Jay- can you do a video refuting all the errors in the Bro. Dimond video “refuting orthodoxy”? Thank you!
jic1982 czcams.com/video/yx0khK_Qe1w/video.html
@Jay, we would wish to watch a video produced by you which would counter the "arguments" in Bro. Dimond's one point by point. Indeed, the video which you already produced and recommended discusses the topic, but it's not directly refuting Bro. Dimond's one.
he cannot not refute BRo Dimond
he will not even bother to debate him,
Yeah, don't buy it.
Matthew clearly gives power to Peter, not Luther.
I'm not HAPPY Luther removed 7 books from the Bible, but the protestant is good too.
You should list your recommended books in the comments as well.
Jay the hammer of heretics
Thanks for helping explain the differences between the west and east
One night, in the chapel of the Dominican priory in Naples where St. Thomas was then living, the sacristan concealed himself to watch the saint at prayer. He saw him lifted into the air, and heard Christ speaking to him from the crucifix on the chapel wall: "Thomas, you have written well of me. What reward will you have?" "Lord, nothing but yourself."
Well at least Jesus thought Thomas Aquinas wrote well.
I guess we will all know the answers when God returns.
So ? Simon magus could levitate. Also see this:
/watch?v=nWo6vVri34Y
&
/watch?v=mROpyBrf32c
John Knight You left out the part where Thomas Aquinas then said “All that I have written is so much straw”
@@shayneswenson Oh oh yes sorry I'll Disregard what Jesus say 😏
@@johnknight2012 the point is...is that there is no way to actually verify that what you or the historian said actually comports with the experience of the church in general. Its mirrors Protestantism in proclamation! By Church I do mean Ecumenical!
That’s taking this quote out of context. After having a series of ecstatic religious experiences later in life, he wrote that in comparison, all his previous philosophizing was “so much straw.” Not that it was of no value.
What are the other videos you’ve done on this topic. I’m Roman Catholic and genuinely seeking the truth my biggest obstacle right now is that while imo there are things Aquinas seems to be wrong about, that does damn Catholicism because Catholicism doesn’t say you have be a dogmatic thomist in the sense you have to accept everything he’s written.
Lololol "a little light in their loafers" hahahahaha good fuckin laugh man. Thank you.
From my perspective in debates, I like typing better cuz you don’t go over each other, comments are saved, and since most busy, can leave and come back whenever to pick back up. So the debate could go on for weeks and months.
I used to think that Palamas was some kind of wacko philosopher who was making up stuff for no good reason. Then I watched a video where James White spent about 30 minutes talking about "weirdness" of Eastern Orthodoxy and he focused almost exclusively on Palamism, and by the time he was done, I actually realized why Palamism not only makes sense, but "Christianity" outside the context of Palamism is internally inconsistent. If I were an atheist or non-Christian who rejected Christianity in general but was asked to evaluate all variants of Christianity from an objective position, I think I could say this one thing for sure: "Christianity sans Palamism does not make sense."
So no unification.....
I hate to say it but everyone is grasping at straws. Someday we will know when we see him face to face, but until then these arguments seem futile. Although I am going wit the Orthodox view because it is less complicated. And I agree the theophanies were the Logos and Abraham would have known the voice of the Son and would recognize it. I am slowly becoming Orthodox grew up Protestant went to Moody Bible Insititute became reformed and am questing the whole system. Protestants agree with Orthodox that the Theophanies were Christ well at least I would have always argued that since as a protestant I am my own authority :).
czcams.com/video/L14UNjaZJm8/video.html
Protestantism's Big justification lie
This could interest you! It is a very conscientiously compsed analysis of scripture along with the Apistle`s tradition.
God bless you and may give you insight!
Thank you for this. I hope to be able to find the time to read a tenth of what you have before I go in the grave.
I have an acquaintance who is both a Freemason and baptized Eastern Orthodox. I assumed this would not be allowed so I was 🤷♀️.
Natalie Mylnar it’s not allowed
Jay Dyer I guess his priest may not be aware.
Grass him up.
West is West and East is East, and never the two shall meet.
Does Aristotle and Plato formulate a form of pantheism in their conception of God? How would you response to someone saying that distintion is composition?
I don't think any of these guys speak for all of Catholicism. I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of the Catechism of the Catholic Church for more objective criticisms of Church teaching. (I have no dog in this fight, I'm a protestant :P)
there are a lot of good and truthful things in the Catechism
You have a very bizarre definition of the ordinary magisterium, which I gather stems from your Catholic days as an ultramontanist. Aquinas is definitely not part of the ordinary magisterium and only those elements of Augustine which are in common with the other church fathers are part of the ordinary magisterium.
The ordinary magisterium is only those elements in common amongst all church fathers, the bible, and repetitions of things that are already held to be part of the magisterium previously. Aquinas' and Augustine's philosophies don't fit into any of those categories so they're not part of the ordinary magisterium. Councils likewise exercise the ordinary magisterium only insofar as they're repeating things.
I'd be interested to know where you got your ideas concerning the ordinary magesterium from and why you think they're the view a catholic ought to have?
Wrong, Vatican I defines ordinary as infallible.
Put ten Catholics in a room together and ask them to clearly define what the "Magisterium" is....
Any sensible and reasonable definition of what is or is not "Magisterium," would have to include the Council of Trent, which upholds the heretical doctrine of absolute divine simplicity, which goes against the 6th Ecumenical Council, which Jay mentions in the video.
Also, any remotely sensible or reasonable definition of what is and is not included in this magical and ethereal "Magisterium" would also include papal bulls that have been reaffirmed numerous times by other 'infallible' popes. This presents a real quandary for any intellectually honest Catholic, because it can only be held tenable by an ignorance of the hundreds of forgotten (but discoverable) papal bulls over the centuries that have been issued, then re-issued and re-affirmed by later popes that teach or mandate, on threat of automatic excommunication, various heretical beliefs... e.g. the many papal bulls that pronounce anathema against any Roman Catholic who accepts the apostolic authority of St. Paul.
The point is this: even WITH a clear, rational, solid definition of what the "Magisterium" is and includes (and does not include), you have an entire 1000 years of documents that are virtually unknown to today's Catholics, that MUST be included in this "Magisterium" and that clearly, obviously, and egregiously demand Roman Catholics adopt various beliefs and practices that are flatly heretical and/or innovative and never found anywhere else in the Church. And yes, all from supposedly 'infallible' popes.
Let the mental gymnastics commence for Romanists now freaking out internally.
What you DON'T KNOW can most definitely hurt you. Catholics don't know the trail of documents and pronouncements that, by any standards, must be considered "Magisterium" and destroy the entire edifice of their church's ecclesiology.
I’m well aware Aquinas as a private theologian is not ordinary magisterium. I clearly explicate that his doctrine is what Roman dogma on absolute simplicity is: jaysanalysis.com/2018/09/21/a/
Vatican I defines extraordinary *and* ordinary universal magisterium as both infallible. The original commenter expended multiple paragraphs to make the same point lol
Ctrl f search the two sections of Vatican I on “ordinary magisterium:” plain as day
Jay have you seen Maccabean Uprising ( The youtube channel).
Why are the energies of God not also His essence?
Amen Jay Dyer, the Essence and Energies Distinction and Absolute Divine Simplicity contradictory against one another. The Filioque Trinity is 3 distinct Gods. Jesus is the Son of ( God) the entire Trinity, or is he the Son of (God) the Father?🤔 The Essence - Energies Distinction is Biblical. Absolute Divine Simplicity is unbiblical. The Monarchy of God the Father is Biblical. The Filioque= 3 distinct self existent autotheos Gods. ❤❤❤❤
Sometimes I feel like Jay talks past himself and reasons from there.
Does God have to be fully actualised to be God?
Debate Erick Ybarra
Len k LOL i just did dude
Awesome
For the record I thumbed it up, agree with what you say, will debate you and then after that, 12 rounds in the Octagon.
how can I reach Jay Dyer via e-mail?
What is your opinion or take on Fa. John Romanides of Blessed memory.... I find "Ancestral Sin" an excellent summary of so much theology
Kingsley Smith - Indeed! I believe Fr. Romanides to be one of the superlative theologians of the 20th century. His clarity and concision are truly awesome (in the proper sense of the word). Ancestral Sin within the academic theological community is legendary, a watershed work with explosive repercussions. His two vol. Empirical Dogmatics is for me THE single greatest modern work to gain entry into Theology - simultaneously academic and entirely practical. Again it is the concision that is astounding, it is so densely written yet so clear. Fr. Romanides has a true gift at packing so much information into so few words. A single line can encapsulate and unpack the most dense and complex ideas with absolute simplicity. The two volumes were assembled from tapes and talks by Fr. Hierotheos of Nafpaktos one of the leading contemporary Theologians in our age. I believe Fr. Romamides will and should be Sainted for his gift of Theology. Time will tell. Fr. Romanides is one of the modern lights of Theology offering clear guidance and illumination to souls walking the Christian path.
If the Son does not in any way participate in the Spirit how is this not polytheism?
There is one principle/cause in the Holy Trinity - God the Father, if the Son is also a cause/principle then this is polytheism because you have more than one principle/cause.
To solve this accusation the romancatholics said the the Holy Spirit proceeds from the oneness of the Father and the Son (to avoid 2causes/principles) but this created another problem, the oneness of the Father and the Son is their consubstantiality, and if the Holy Spirit proceeds from the consubstantiality of the Father and the Son then it follows that the Holy Spirit is not consubstantial with the Father and the Son since unlike the Father and the Son, his substantiality doesn't cause the existence of another divine person.
Doesn’t participate in the existential origin. The Spirit is eternally manifested by, and rests in, Him.
Would you really take the time to debate people online who request it of you?
Mexico Unexplained I debated Kokesh. Of course
Nice. Thanks for the reply.
Mike Winger has a great study series on the 'theophanies' in the Old Testament. Not sure of his denomination (that hardly matters anyway), but his teaching on the subject is sound in my opinion. 😊
Jay comes across much more authoritive
But you won't debate brother Peter diamond senior ”true” ”christian” boy.
You seem very knowledgeable about “stuff”, but are you born again? Because that’s Something entirely different. It’s a step more from this. It’s actual Salvation. You can understand a lot of things and truths with your brain, but did you understand the cross with your heart? Did you break down on your knees infront Almighty God?
You sound like member of a sect.
Nat S Almost everyone here comes from a non-denominational/Reformed/Baptist background, including Jay, so while I appreciate your enthusiasm, it might be best to keep your 19th century sectarian DIY Gnostic revivalism to yourself.
@@shayneswenson you just nailed it 👌 beautifully said