S&W 3566: An IPSC Game-Changer that Didn’t
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- In 1994, Smith & Wesson began shipping the Model 3566, a double-stack, single action pistols tuned for high-level USPSA competition. It was a pistol that was going to dominate the new Limited division, with the capacity of a standard 9x19mm handgun but enough power to qualify for Major. And then in February 1995, the USPSA Board revised their rules to require a minimum bullet diameter of .40 inch for any Major caliber. Was S&W unfairly screwed by USPSA? Or was S&W trying to exploit a rule loophole contrary to the spirit of the game? Either way, the victim was the .356 TSW cartridge, which had a lot of potential but was basically dead on arrival because of the USPSA rule change.
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I used to shoot IPSC (before the handgun ban in the UK) and it was clear from the start that the governing body were all 1911 fanboys and they made sure the 1911 had a constant advantage.
A rule allowed "compulsory magazine changes to test the dexterity of the competitor". Strangely, those compulsory changes tended to be after every 7 shots in some competition stages.
No doubt they could see this was way better than the 1911 so they killed it.
IIRC, Jeff Cooper, an early combat pistol training guru and gun rag bloviator, had something to do with the initial creation of IPSC. Cooper was a huge 1911 fanboy, and dismissive of any auto pistol chambered for anything with a diameter of less than 10mm, hence 9mm being labeled "minor". So of course they did that.
You folks need to get that ban repealed, and punish the politicians that did it.
@@billmcyrus The vast majority (95%) don't think it has gone far enough and would like to see a far more comprehensive ban.
Paul Goffin trying to stop us shooting for pest control now too. May be time to consider moving
To be fair, most large caliber handguns struggle to hold over 7 rounds in a standard magazine, personally I'd have said 6 then revolvers stood a chance
IPSC is like how NASCAR used to mean "stock car" racing.
@@paperman9708 Yep. They both turned into big money sports and took the fun and availability out of it.
And then IDPA came along to recapture the original theme... and then it's rules got gameified as well... endless cycle.
Wrong... Classic, production, stock? If want play Lego, go for Open.
So this car was the Superbird of IPSC? So good they had to ban it?
Wild Bill thank you for making that clear.
"Nice pistol Smith & Wesson, would be a pity if a rule change rendered it invalid."
Looks like 5 people got paid off.
Alternative title: The gun the fudds killed.
300th like
Here is what USPSA President Andy Hollar wrote in the May/June 1994 issue of "Front Sight" magazine:
"The .356 TS&W pistol produced by the Smith & Wesson Performance Center has been on the market for more than a year and many more than the 1000 units have been sold. Ammunition manufacturers producing the ammunition or planning to produce it include Federal, Cor-Bon, and CP Bullets. Only Federal ammunition is "generally available" at this writing. The pistol may be used in Limited, but only at minor power. The good news is that the sample Federal ammunition easily made major (178.5 power factor at 4200 ft elevation) and as soon as two more commercial manufacturers come on line, the pistol will be completely legal at major power factor."
At the USPSA BOD meeting of July 9, 1994, Jeff Nelson moved that .356 TSW ammunition be approved and be considered legal in Major and Minor PF for Limited Division. Following discussion, the motion failed with three in favor and five opposed. The .40 caliber threshold for Limited Major PF was formalized no later than the February 20, 1995 BOD meeting.
The timing of the rule change was terrible as S&W and its distributors had just begun promoting the Model 3566 semi-auto pistol and the .356 TSW cartridge as an eligible Limited Major PF combination.
Besides the "Pocket Rocket" Model 940 and the Model 3566 Limited, there was a really nice Open Division Model 3566 variant built in conjunction with Briley. (Briley's head pistolsmith Claudio Salassa and the S&W Performance Center's head pistolsmith Paul Liebenberg had worked together back when they lived in South Africa.) However, no one in the US really wanted to compete using anything other than an M1911 variant once the widebody frames became available. S&W also briefly offered a couple of Model 6906-sized pistols in .356 TSW known as the Model 3566 Compact.
The "Super 9" commercial export model was basically an economy model of the Model 3566 Limited, eliminating the fancy stepped slide contours, two-tone finish, and magwell funnel. The Super 9's 5" barrel had a standard 3rd Gen. muzzle profile instead of being machined straight for the spherical bushing of the Model 3566. In addition, the Super 9's long slide had a standard Novak rear sight dovetail with an aftermarket LPA adjustable sight instead of the Model 3566's BoMar sight. The version I encountered had three barrels: 9x19mm, 9x21mm IMI, and .356 TSW. One interesting thing I found was that the sear for the single-action Super 9 was originally meant for the double-action only models. I want to say that it used a standard hammer as well. The Model 3566 Limited, as with the other S&W single-action autos of its day, used what looked like a cropped version of the Model 52-2 hammer.
Now im interested what happened when 10 mm auto and 40 S&W showed up on the market
@@sangerzonnvolt6712 They were already on the market well before .356 TSW.
By this time the Colt Delta Elite in 10mm had already been out for several years.
@@sangerzonnvolt6712 Those both count as major power factor cartridges. .40SW is still quite popular in USPSA/IPSC as its basically as tame as you can get and still be in major power factor.
@@ben501st * sees 501st in name * WATCH THOSE WRIST ROCKETS!
"Winning at competition" vs. "Self improvement through competition." Very perceptive and telling.
@Sauli Luolajan-Mikkola you’re onto something there. People are winning tournaments with canik pistols which are some of the cheapest competition guns you can find. They’re also great guns so that doesn’t hurt but the fact that they’re so affordable means pretty much anyone can be competitive if they’re good enough, and having a nice SAO gun with a big magazine doesn’t cost over $1000 anymore
This reminds me of Jeff Gordon's T-Rex car that he drove at the NASCAR all star race. The Engineers for his Team went through the rule book and built a car that conformed to every single rule, The car totally dominated the race then NASCAR said good job and never bring it to the track again..
Smokey Yunick did that kind of stuff first. "Fuel tank capacity is limited to... Well, it doesn't say here I can't run 20 feet of 1 inch pipe for fuel line!"
That's racing. Its all about bending rules and finding grey areas/loopholes
@@immikeurnot Penske/Donohue as well.
There's plenty of that in racing. NASCAR was built on cheating the law and death.
immikeurnot that would be a pretty dirty solution to fuel capacity.
A completely unfair decision. If the competition wanted to segregate 9mm and 45 ACP shooters then they should have said that from the start.
This pistol and cartridge look great! What a shame we all lost out on this combination.
Yes. Wouldn't it just be easier to just make a list of calibers allowed in major?
I remember reading about it when it first came out. Robbie Leatham was shooting a fully compensated race gun version. He said the compensator was so efficient, and the .356TSW provided so much muzzle blast, that the pistol actually recoiled downwards.
They needed to tweak things to get it to recoil flat.
That was probably the 9x25mm Dillon, not the .356 TSW.
The good old days of bearded IPSC shooters, who adopted a beard after their .38 Super loads caused a condition known as "super-face" when their gun blew up
Adopted the beard after not being able to shave for a couple weeks.
I remember their super hot .38 Super loads being as loud as my hot .44 mag loads.
Cover up scars
Is this serious?! Gun noob European here. LMAO
My first adventure in hand loading came when I was outclassed on bowling pin matches. In my younger years I was always broke, and could only afford one pistol. That Browning Hi-Power was an awesome tool, but the 9x19 has limitations.
The happy compromise with my wife at the time was to learn how to hand load on a budget. As it turns out, 4.9 grains of Unique pushing a 125 grain hard cast SWC combined with careful shot placement knocked the pins right off the table. I won a couple of club matches and learned the fun way without any catastrophic failures.
My FEG 9mm had two 15 round mags. Try as I might I could not find a third 15 rounder anywhere. So I was not allowed to enter the local steel-plate pistol match because they demanded shooters have three mags. Hell, I could outshoot any of the local yokels, but I wasn't about to buy another handgun to prove it.
@@ammoalamo6485 I disassembled my SIG P-226 mags and carefully filed-down the bottom of the plastic follower... managed to squeeze 18 rounds into each mag...Then, the next year, Canada banned all hi-cap mags down to 10 rounds only...FFS.
I'll just stick with my $5,000 STI 2011, which feeds 20% of the time, strikes my reload's primers 50% of the time, and sometimes dumps all my ammo out of the aftermarket extended baseplates I've added.... ipsc is so goofy.
Use a pistol-depth primer-pocket uniformer ( Sinclair makes amazing ones, 1/2 inch dia. Chuck it in a drill and away you go.)
I carry a .356 because they don't make a .357.
Wait...
"What did you use, a .38?"
"38, 39, whatever it takes."
🤣😂
I shot IPSC in the early 90s, initially with a SW 5906 then later with the .356 TSW. Very nice gun. I purchased a couple thousand rounds then did my own reloading as I used to shoot several hundred rounds a week.
The reaction the first time I ran the gun at my local IPSC match in Northern Virginia was pretty cool. The steel poppers literally flew down and a number of people came up to me after I ran the stage to see what I was shooting.
I moved to California in the fall of '94 and stopped shooting IPSC competition but still have the gun and some ammo as well as a number of cases that I could reload.
As I recall, the other thing working against the gun was Clinton's 1994 assault weapons bill that limited magazine capacity to 10 rounds which also removed an incentive to go with the 9 mm.
"Let's see who's under this mask." "Old man Wesson!"
"And I would've gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for the rules committee!"
Emach “And those meddling kids.” Sorry I couldn’t help myself. I see myself out now...
I love learning about old wildcat cartridges! They are the muscle cars of the gun industry.
I'd put this more inline with a '32 Ford hot rod with a small block Chevy.
@@circleofsorrow4583 A compact roland special or whatever is very street practical. A S&W shield core with porting and an optic is a very practical carry gun too. Ditto for the little Walther compact carry pistol with integral optic. The fact that each of those is made strong enough to shoot 9 major out of the box is very much a result of competition, as are the other features. Those are very street worthy improvements right down to the wildcat derived +P+ ammo capability.
It's not a wildcat cartridge. It was a factory developed cartridge. Big difference.
@@fortj3 except basically all of those are just documenting an existing wildcat.
@@GunFunZS 356TSW was NOT a wildcat. It was a fully factory designed/developed cartridge. Wildcat cartridges are made by individuals modifying existing cases by shortening, necking down/up, and/or changing the neck angle to create a new round.
I also love wildcat rounds but the 356TSW ain't one.
7-30 Waters is a great example of a wildcat. .30-30 necked down to take a 7mm bullet.
Similar thing happened in the '70s when Car & Driver blueprinted a Mazda that proceeded to blow the doors off the BMWs that then ruled the circuit. Quick rule change to redefine how engine displacement was calculated and the Mazda was no longer a threat.
Mazda was over boosting the engines and the rotorary engines were so loud also how volvo angle cut the cyclinder head to get a leg up on the comp.
@@kylelaughinghouse1893 I was talking about a RX-2 ca 1973. I don't think it had a boost.
@@sparten17708 The way Wankel displacement is calculated is a subject of debate. Mazda calculates it in a way that gives the smallest possible displacement, two other (and more valid) methods would suggest a true displacement of 2.6 liters (which better matches its airflow and fuel demands) or 3.9 liters (which is the engine's true displacement).
Mazda's Wankel is neither a rotary (rotaries had pistons) nor a 1.3 liter engine.
@@sparten17708 , Are you talking mass production cars, or racing? Because GM was making a production turbo car in 1962. Learn some history, it's fascinating...
@@16v15 yes the Corvair Spyder.
Love the two tone . that's a great looking S&W .
The grip shape and angle looks atrocious to my eyes
He mentioned people walking away. When I started shooting IPSC there was the open auto only division and the open revolver could compete in a bonus round. I remember one guy that shot an H&K squeeze cocker, but everyone else used a 1911 in .45 or .38 super. The gun that I could afford to build was a .45 which couldn't compete with the .38 supers. It was declared that IPSC was growing to the point that, in order to save time, the revolver was no longer a bonus, but a separate division so I had to choose between auto and revolver. I sold most of my small collection to afford to build a 38 super, counting mags, reloading, etc about a $3500 price tag. That was real money to me in the 80's. I had competed in maybe 3 matches, getting the bugs out of my super, when guys started showing up with double stacks and dot sights. I was looking at another $5500 for a new gun to stay competitive. I threw in the towel. I had to start over to build another collection. I still have that built 80's Colt .38 super with less than 500 rounds through it.
looks like a sweet shooter for sure
I remember very well when that pistol premiered. I was working in a large, well stocked local gunshop and we received a few of those and their corresponding ammunition. We sold the pistols and most of the ammo, but the few dozen boxes of factory ammo that didn't sell sat on the box for YEARS. The handgun itself was an astounding well fit and finished pistol. I wish they would have chambered the same gun for standard calibers.
And yet, just this year USPSA changed the minimum caliber for limited major to .357sig for law enforcement.
Now that all the LE organizations are dumping those onto the surplus market.
Although the major cheating factor of the s&w was the magazine capacity, which isn't anywhere in the rules still, so in theory of someone could make the cases to reload they could compete with their s&w
Hardly an advantage to be able to use .357 Sig, which has snappier recoil (if loaded to Major) than the heavy-bullet (180, 185, 200 gr) .40 loadings..
Sounds like IPSC tried to get clever with the rules. Maybe they should have just simply restricted the Limited class to a list of specific common calibers?
The trouble with that is that it either precludes _any_ newer cartridges from competition, or you have to review every new cartridge that starts gaining speed and decide subjectively whether to allow it or not. A consistent set of rules (or at least _guidelines,_ as several people have commented that .357 SIG gets a pass despite being a 9mm bullet) makes it a lot easier. Personally, I might have considered a bullet weight minimum rather than a calibre minimum as the main problem seems to be low-weight, high velocity rounds, but it's probably all the same in the end.
@Eye Patch Guy Isn't low-recoil, high-capacity the exact _opposite_ of major class though?
@@jmd1743 Except that bottlenecked pistol cartridges CAN be soooo difficult to get working properly... great cartridge when loads/mags and gun all work...
@@WJS774 Well said. Its very easy to criticise rule sets written by others when one has the luxury of time (and gets to see what else arrives on the market) … All 3 of the "Action Pistol" sports Ive been involved in have rules that - by necessity - have evolved. In some cases simply to try to keep the original intent of the (with hindsight badly written) rules. If anyone can do better...if anyone can write a set of rules that are perfect form the start...have NO loopholes, ever... well... lets see them!
@Eye Patch Guy
The whole reason for the major/minor classing was CAPACITY. Major had low capacity, so it got a scoring advantage per hit. Needing to reload more frequently puts you at a disadvantage, so the scoring advantage puts you on a theoretically more balanced playing field.
This is exactly why I don't like professional sports.
Too much bribery and to many things rigged.
That loophole was at least closed pretty quickly.
Can't say the same for loopholes that basically allow tax fraud, if you have the right lawyers.
Exactly
Sounds like the governing body handled it pretty well though. I'm sure in other sports something like this would have been allowed.
@@libtardgunlover762 competition replaced with gaming on all levels
I had a replica of this pistol when I was a kid and I absolutely love the way it looks and feels. I didn't know anything about the firearm itself so this is immensely interesting!
Beautiful gun. The story behind this is very reflective of many racing disciplines.
I had a SW open pistol in 356TSW in my possession for about 4 months and I enjoyed shooting it as supposedly a budget, to me, open class gun. It was a single action that worked very well, except to me, a safety lever was added to the slide and it wasn't as smooth as those on 1911. The gunsmith that I believe built the gun and sent it for review to an acquaintance of mine, never replied to my requests for a price, so after the 4 months I returned the gun to them. It was not an objectionable experience by any means but I ultimately got a SVI in 38 Super that I dearly loved. Ultimately I got another single stack 1911 set up about the same way for Steel Challenge. As old age has overtaken me I sold both with a lump in my throat as they departed but also with many fond memories. The SW also provided good memories but the firearm and 356TSW ammo were special enough I'm happy with what I ended up with.
Is it me or are these S&W pistols highly underrated ? Back in their day they were pretty solid designs.
You're not wrong. I have a couple and I dig them. The downside is they're heavy even compared to other metal framed DA/SA guns like Sigs and Berettas.
No sir, you are not mistaken. I own a S&W 3566 and it shoots BEAUTIFULLY!!!! I bought mine from a dealer that had it in the store for 5 years. Picked up the pistol, 1000 rounds of Federal Premium Hydra-Shok, 700 rounds of CorBon, and 8 magazines ALL for $1000. Way under original price of the pistol. A few weeks later I picked up 2000 pieces of one fired brass for $50 from another USPSA shooter that had sold his.
I still have the pistol, and occasionally take it to the range. I shoot reloads and the pistol has NEVER had a malfunction. It is the ONLY S&W semiautomatic I own that has never had a malfunction!!!!
The old school S&W pistols are bulky and heavy, and look like goofy 1911s for lack of a better word. This one is a high end model that doesn't look that bad.
i own two 3rd gen smiths. heavy, great triggers,feed anything. can be used as hammers. love them
My grandpa carried one of the first single stack s&w autos as his service pistol. They were very popular with police and sheriffs departments, even today there's still a state police department carrying one of the newer models.
If I remember correctly, Smith & Wesson pulled out of IPSC entirely after they set the .400cal minimum bore. I guess I can't blame them. I sounds like they put a lot of effort to game the system, and then the board said, "Nope, new rules."
Regarding the ammo, there used to be a term called "Super Face." Super Face was what you got when a .38 Super case let go, and all the gas, debris and lubricant that collected in the firing pin tunnel sprayed the shooter in the face, usually without serious injury.
Reloaders have gotten this pretty much figured out now. 9mm Major is a thing, and people are shooting thousands of rounds a year without incident.
@ 8:45 -- "We considered fair, but decided against it." Where have I heard *that* before? ;-D
Gun Jesus
Thank you for bringing this pistol to the masses. I own one and love it. Every time I go into a place that sells ammo I look for a few things, the .356TSW is ALWAYS the second thing I look for, the first is ANY caliber Winchester BLACK TALON of course. I have found about 50 boxes since buying my pistol back in 1997.
I was told buy someone at the S&W Performance Center, around 2000, that Smith NEW USPSA was going to limit MAJOR to .40 Plus, but since they had built the guns and made deals with ammo companies, Smith was putting the 356TSW on the market no matter what, and hoped USPSA would allow the cartridge for MAJOR.
I do not know how many people got the 9mm barrel for the 3566, but I have one in 9mm and a 38 Super barrel from the SWPC as well. I ordered them the same day, and had to send my pistol to the PC to fit the 3i Super.
The pistol shoots AMAZINGLY in 9mm and 356TSW, but is a DREAM to shoot in Super. The weight of the pistol eats the recoil completely. My 38 Super load is 124 gr Hornady XTP at 1350 fps, loaded with N320 in Federal or CorBon cases. For open I bump the powder to boost velocity so the comp works better.
Thank you for bringing us these AMAZING TOYS!!!!
SAAMI is the U.S group that dictates ammo standards. CIP is european.
I was just coming here to add this,
Me too. Forgive me, Gun Jesus.
It happened! He finally made mistake!
America is an European colony*, he is right - from a certain point of view.
*I'm not serious, calm down and don't shoot me.
Guys give him a pass - It's Easter so he's preoccupied with the whole resurrection thing he has to do :P
Finally, we see the gun and ammo in the same video!
To be fair, many of the guns in his videos are chambered in calibers for which no examples still exist. But I agree, it would be great if he included an example of, or at least a photo, of the gun's ammunition whenever possible.
Ah, .356 TSW, also known as .356 JLE (Just Long Enough). :)
Ian, I found out yesterday you have a series on Amazon Prime. Very cool!
Watching those right after this.
wait what? really? whats it called
@@bitchfacedmgee7433 Guns of Vietnam or something similar
@@bitchfacedmgee7433 searching his name comes up with the episodes
@@bitchfacedmgee7433 Search for 'Ian McCollum' and you'll find a number of videos. They're basically themed compilations, which is rather nice. Think they were put on Amazon after the ad-pocalypse made using CZcams uncertain.
If USPSA leadership they wanted Minor and Major to be conventional 9x19mm Parabellum and .45 ACP ammunition divisions then they should have said so. If they set an abstract standard, people will try to meet it. They should have embraced that as an opportunity to encourage the development of superior firearms technology and the creation of the best possible cartridges at ideal levels of energy. Claiming that a cartridge like .357 Magnum or .357 Sig isn't up to the power level of .45 ACP because of caliber is totally disingenuous and wrong, especially when the standard was based solely on muzzle energy and not caliber.
USPSA should have foreseen that new firearms may be developed around their standards, and if they were going to change the rules done so before a major firearms company had brought the guns to market. S&W did indeed get screwed. It's unfortunate there wasn't a division for this round, since .357 Sig evidences that there was at least a small market for it even outside of competition. So on the other hand, I place most of the blame for the demise of this cartridge with S&W for seeing no potential or desirability in their pistol beyond gaming the competition standards. The pistol and cartridge may have been successful entering the market in limited production as a niche carry round. They never gave the public a chance to embrace or reject it.
Too often these big corporate entities aren't interested in launching niche products with a small but solid market. It's not that risky of a proposition, but they want to aim to immediately start taking a lot of market share. If they didn't overextend themselves promoting or overproducing the pistols, they probably could have made a steady small profit with slow production. Why not? It uses many parts from other pistols and ammunition in production and they probably wouldn't need much new equipment to make the thing. A small team of employees could have been tasked to make it, with no or very limited advertising. Just look at all the bemoaning in the comment sections from people who claim they would have bought and used this cartridge. If 5% of them really would have, that's a market. There's a good chance it would have eclipsed .357 Sig, introduced the same year.
Agreed. Rules are for keeping. Getting mad when someone keeps your rules and outperforms you is just petty. The pretense that this was based on a tactical performance reality in the face of the evidence was pathetic.
Agreed.
That's exactly what I was thinking, all of this bullshit could have been avoided had the USPSA just confined competition shooting to divisions based on nothing but standard calibers, and have separate competitions for each one. Just have a standard 9mm division and a standard .45ACP division. Then expand the number of divisions based on demand for different calibers.
It seems in the effort to make the sport simpler in having two broad categories, they in fact made it infinitely more complex.
It's nice to see dudes just saying "fuck it" and shooting limited open with their carry rigs these days. If IDPA would up their mag size and allow appendix, this entire crowd would shift over there in a heartbeat
It would have. The design of the .357 Sig severely limits the bullet selection for handloading.
Combined with the higher capacity of the 356TSW, and the .357 Sig would have been rightfully stillborn.
A gun and a story like this is what forgotten weapons is all about. Thank you, Ian.
the gov does this too, " oh youre following the rules? well, we changed them, now you owe us money."
Inevitably there are politics behind all things connected to we humans. Guns are no exception. Great insight to (almost)forgotten gun history Ian. Thx
@@circleofsorrow4583 am I to take that you THE genius?
Which is why I avoid humans at all cost.
this reminds me of all those stories about some fancy race car that was banned or changed due to FIA regulations.
My fist impression is that a Browning HiPower had an illegitimate love child with a Beretta 92
Why "illegitimate"???
@@guardrailbiter the browning hi power is married to the colt model of 1911
I remember when the 356 TSW came out but had no idea what happened to it. Now I know.
As a competition shooter, I am the lucky owner of a 952-2, the 3566 chambered in 9mm P with a single stack mag, and the bigger sister? 945 in .45 ACP. Both are outstanding pieces of precision and manufacturing by the S& W performance center, on par with the SIG P210. All three were a must have for me at first sight. The trigger of the 952-2 breaks light and crisp. The only thing that I am missing is a trigger stop. The slight drop of the trigger at the 952-2 makes me shoot slightly better groups with the 945.
this is only the 2nd time out of all of Ian's video's were he actually dryfires a pistol... This S&W should have been a game changer it really is a beauty and probably would have killed the 9mm luger if it took off... Another great video.. thumbs up all the way....
Despite of the IPSC changes in rules, I remember reading about this gun and cartridge back in the day (about 88 ou 89) and I thought that was a really good caliber and could be used out of the limited division and even for other purposes then only IPSC. I think SW marketed it wrong after they got cut out of the "limited major thingy". It could have a longer life in the 9mm world like the .38 super and 9x21 IWI. And the gun itself was awesome. A "spartan limited ready" pistol.
Thank you Gun Jesus - thanks to your channel I was able to tell my grandmother "Nope, there's nothing wrong with your SIG p320, Nan. That's just the tilting-barrel design!" I'm not sure she should be owning a firearm though because she keeps losing it and blaming me for it. This most recent time it wound up in one of her boots. No clue how that happened. Dementia's that way sometimes.
If you're serious, personally I'd be doing the high performance race gun striker spring delete on that 320...
@@warphammer She hardly uses the thing - been to the range a few times - when she loses it she does so without the ammunition. She keeps them separate and that's all I'm really worried about.
Some people call it gaming the rules, I call it engineering.
And isn't the point of the rules to do the best you can within them? This is what drives innovation.
Definitely not cricket
@@lambastepirate Anything is cricket, if you work in a snack break and everyone is in agreement about what rules you are trying to win by.
more like cheating
@@andrewphillips8341 That's the entire point! Engineering in competitions where machines are involved is to get an unfair advantage over your opponent through better gear, except if you worked on it yourself then it's not unfair.
For a while back in the day I had a Ruger Blackhawk, which comes standard with both a .357 and 9mm cylinder. Someone who had owned the gun before me had sent the 9mm in to be rebored to fit Bains & Davis 357/44 ammo, a .44 case necked down to a .357 bullet.
If I remember correctly, it was a long time ago, it required a plastic collar to work properly, but if I ever wanted to go out hunting for engine blocks I was ready!
Also, it's the same OAL as 9x19, so it fits in standard length 9mm mags. Many other 9mm platforms of the era can easily be converted to 356 tsw. The only changes required is to change the barrel (or ream the chamber) and change the recoil spring.
Cor-Bon recently did a run of 356 tsw 2017-2018 ish.
I'm also strongly reminded of the 9x25mm Dillon cartridge (10mm Auto necked down to 9mm), although that had capacity limits. In fact, it's probably a better comparison with the .356 TSW than the .357 SIG, which wasn't competition-designed, as I recall. I remember 9x25mm Dillon being breathlessly announced as one of the fads in competitive shooting. SVT or STI made a double-stack 1911 clone in that calibre meant for IPSC shooting, and BUL Transmark had a rig for it, as well.
There was even talk of a 9x30mm Dillon Magnum, based on the 10mm Magnum cartridge. What that was going to be used for, the gods only know, since only AMT made a pistol in that calibre anyway (the Automag IV).
Wasn't there also a 9x23 Winchester offering at that time? It's been 20+ years, but I seem to remember that loading as well, albeit possibly for a different purpose. Great video as always. Ian. You, C&Rsenal, and the Bloke rank very high on my must watch list of daily CZcamsrs.
Looks like a sleek pistol.
The idea of an "open" category was instantly in my mind when you came up with the literal "arms race" going on. "Why not put all the modified stuff into their own 'customized' category and leave the major and minor to default guns" Then the open category was mentioned.
I'm a USPSA shooter, but I dont take it too seriously. The die hards have some...interesting priorities.
I was a Sheriff' Deputy and IPSC shooter in the early 90's. I used a Colt series 70. One of my buddies bought one of those. As I remember, it was a fun gun to shoot and very accurate. Too bad they never made it.
Dedicated .357 SIG fan here. The cartridge is still around, and it's a very nice round with excellent performance. While capacity is less, it's usually only 1 or 2 rounds. 16+1 in my Glock 31 compared to 17+1 in a 9mm Glock 17, for example. Still beats the pants off a 6-shooter (though I love my classic S&W 19 too). I do think it would have been cool to see one of the "straight-walled" beefy nines like the .356 TSW or 9x23mm take off in the market. A 9mm with the extra boost to kinetic & specific energy makes for a terrific performer with tough modern bullet designs.
Power factors should be renamed Boomer and Zoomer, not major and minor.
i dont know what is it call in uspsa now however in ipsc it still call major and minor power factors
Fudds a Crudds
Or 1911 and Everything Else.
Should be "normal" and "'murica".
lol, love it. gets the message across, and rhymes too.
I love your videos despite owning exactly zero firearms, and most of what I know about them is likely stuff I learned on this channel. Having said that, and in spite of the increased difficulty of owning a pistol compared to a long gun in Canada, after seeing this pistol, the Steyr Scout might just have competition now as the gun I will eventually purchase should I decide to get one. That my be the slickest looking pistol I've ever seen, and I would feel like a total badass action movie hero showing up with one to the range. :D
Also same deal as 460 Rowland upgrade to the 1911 45auto/acp...460 Rowland about the same power as 44 mag. I have 1911 45acp i converted to the 460 Rowland...It shoots like a dream....Thanks...!
This story it's not much different to racing cars, just recall Lotus F1 88, Babham BT46, Tyrrel P34, Lancia 037 Rally Group B, etc.
Looks like a S&W 59 series and Browning Hipower banged ! This is the best looking S&W gun that isnt a revolver
The American gunmaker is the king of exploiting loopholes. It makes me proud.
I was a UKPSA member too but got out when the Wilson Combat in .38 Super and all the bells and whistles (muzzle brake, etc.) came in - at the same time as the "Bollock Rig" - which I hated! It went against everything Cooper stood up for, in my opinion. Never tried that gun but so far as I'm concerned I'd never have selected a pistol for Comps with a safety in that position on the slide (or double action, single action)..... Best, Pete.
Excellent presentation from Ian, always interesting, keep up the good work Ian.
Ian, Note that that SAME year (1994), the unconstitutional standard capacity mag ban passed, which boosted .40 and .357 sig. So this cz was a double-whammy to .356 TSW. It's quite conceivable that this cartridge would have survived but for either one of those 1-2 punches.
My dad's partner in IPSC .had one of these as we as several others & proto types ..man I wish I would stuck with pops n his crew ..cus they had the shit ..all funded n custom made for it n them and the particular specs.of that upcoming shoot ..by all the major manufacturer's..just to have one ..but they all had several ..i mean several ..wish I was still connected ..theyed be in there 90s now so just have to wonder who ended up with them all.i got my share from pops but he stopped early and moved on to other things.days gone by and opportunities missed ..such a trick round also ..MAN THOSE WERE THE DAYS .LEAST FOR ME.. Every thing you said is n was true ..thats the politics .exactly why pops left..gr8 vid brother
Its amazing the lengths people will go to defeat the spirit of the game.
@Christie Malry Could you rephrase that in "Angry Rant", please? ;P
Every game has rules, the intent of which can be legally violated, hence the term “gaming the system” and this is a lesson I learned in so-called competition against those who knew how to insure they would win. I only got screwed once; that was my learning experience. I didn’t need more. “Fool me once.” Everything, not just firearms, follows the same pattern. The only solution is to not play.
Excellent presentation on a unique firearm as always, but I got out of this video the most concise and simple explanation ever of USPSA Minor vs Major and Open vs Limited. Thanks, Ian.
I recently read about a couple companies trying to revive the .356 tsw
Randy Lee at Apex Tactical has been working with Hornady to revive a slightly downloaded version as the .356 TSW-LE.
Tell them to revive the .41 Action Express while they're at it.
Underwood ammo had it listed last time on was on their site
Not really surprising, it's formalized 9mm Major, in that to get factory ammo, it needed to go this route. It's the same reason why 357 Magnum is longer than 38 Special, the original Magnum loading could have used the Special case, but they had to lengthen the OAL to prevent loading it into revolvers not designed for the Magnum loading.
I think the cartridge would have had a better chance than .357 SIG, because of the same magazine capacity as the 9 luger, problem was they only marketed it for IPSC.
Only slightly more powder depending on bullet length and this is because bullets intended for 356tsw are same as those intended for 357sig and these are slightly shorter than similar weight 9X19 bullets, they are more squat and straigt taper bullets both ball and hollowpoint vs long taper or long rounded sides hollowpoints for 9X19. A key to proper bullets for either 356TSW or 357Sig are looking at the mid weight bullet weights. A mid weight 357sig bullet will be a 125gr whereas the 9 luger version would be 124gr and be a longer bullet. Because for a similar weight bullet the 357sig style bullet is shorter it allows for slightly more powder but it isnt a dramatic increase in powder, the velocity boost in 356tsw comes from increase in preasure because of fitting more powder in a similar or almost the same space as a 9X19 cartridge! The case being longer doesnt ad a lot of space the bullets are almost seated to the same depth in 356tsw vs 9luger, its just the 356tsw has more casing surface bearing onto the bullet compared to the 9X19, this also possibly aids in more complete powder burn even in shorter barrels as the bullet is held a bit longer, this is hard to really prove advantage however. The main key is yes more powder but also cramming powder and increasing pressure vs keeping more powder at the same pressure by using a much longer space behind the bullet. The case may be longer but the bullet is still almost seated to the same depth. 9X23win is really the better round but it requires a gun originally designed for 45 as it requires a wider mag.
BTW only thick web cases or specifically designed 356tsw cases are safe to load at such high pressures! Don't load 9X21 IMI cases to the same pressure as a 356TSW!!!! The 9X21 IMI is only to be loaded to same pressures as 9X19! Also some subcompacts may be just fine using 356TSW,as long as good thick web cases are used and aftermarket barrel has good case support and is ported to manage recoil, its still maybe best to use this for carry in a more compact size gun that you can grip and control well. I've heard people say that they can carry 356tsw for cc and practice with std velocity 9X19. Yes this is true but in order to be effective in using 356tsw in a defense scenario, you need to train with it and not neglect it for training with 9X19!!! You always need to train at least a good deal of the time with the same power factor that you intend to carry! A glock 19 or compact size M&P is a better carry option if you intend to carry 356tsw! Keep the P365 and Hellcats in 9X19!
It looks strikingly similar to the S&W 952, a pistol I've sometimes pondered buying. And now that I think about it, the 3566 probably doesn't vary much in its leading specifics from the original model 52, which is 38 Special. This gun has solid pedigree.
Honestly, the IPSC should've had the divisions determined by caliber and magazine capacity, as larger bullets means more recoil and fewer rounds per mag, with a ruling made that there cannot be muzzle breaks on your firearms (or any such device put on the end of the gun to significantly lower recoil/felt recoil)
The .40 and up rule also had an effect of killing the 357SIG. I still am angry about it.
.357 Sig is possibly the only moderately handgun cartridge that was even more retarded than its parent.
Ok mr air Marshall
Great Video!! I remember all the Advertising that SW did back in 94 about the 356 caliber and Pistol its a SHAME that it never took off!
That being said 357 SIG is FAR from DEAD! I am a BIG fan of it I have been shooting it ever since I purchased my first 40SW Glock Pistol back in Sept 23, 2004 right after the end of the end of the Assault Weapons Ban and I purchased a BNIB Gen 3 G22 with 8 15rd magazines along with 500 rds of ammo. I also got the 357 SIg barrel along all the necessary accessories for a new glock needed. I was at my first duty station in Norfolk VA with the USN. Now I have Sig, Smith and Wessons, More GLocks, Walthers and HK that have both 40SW and 357 SIG barrels if they were not originally purchased in 357. The caliber has been making a comeback in the last 3 years that ammo has been more plentiful and has come down in price which is a Great thing when having over 10 pistols in the Caliber! Even Walmart is carrying 357 Sig at under 20 dollars for a box of 50 rounds of FMJs.
.357 Sig is awesome. It's still around too.
Starline may still make that brass for that pistol. My fav S& W pistol is the model 52 master chambered in .38 full wadcutter for bullseye competition and the model 41 for rimfire competition. Have shot both in my club but never owned either. I'm thinking of getting a new 41 as they are still made. Back in the day I shot a Hi standered Victor in rimfire and a Benelli MP95e in .32 S&W full wad cutter, and of course a 1911 .45 Springfield NM custom shop ball gun. Converted to a wadcutter gun. Good days indeed.
Fascinating story, I'm glad you decided to do this video. I hope you do more videos like this in the future.
Power factor or in practical speak: we are a bunch of people with outdated guns but want to feel superior so we are gonna make a club and feel good about ourselves
Nope. It was a way of leveling the playing field when it comes to how muzzle flip affects getting your sights on target. The 1911 is still not outdated. There has been very little actual design advancement in handguns (that actually works reliably) in many decades.
A 9mm pistol will have less muzzle flip and recoil impulse than a .45 ACP, due to bullet weight.
That allows you to get your sights back on target faster between shots. That's called an unfair advantage, especially when we're talking about a sport where speed is a big factor.
If you did away with power factors, you'd have people using .22lr, due to its lack of muzzle flip and ability to get more shots on target in less time than heavier recoiling, centerfire guns.
@@fortj3 It was originally intended to discourage people from using anything smaller than .45, on the rather dubious theory that 9mm would be insufficient in real life shooting situations. It gave an unfair and illogical advantage to people using the dinosaur that was and is the 1911. I really like my 1911. I like nice gate loaded SA revolvers, too. And just like that SA revolver, if SHTF, the 1911 surely won't be the first thing I reach for. There are newer designs which are slightly more reliable, lighter to lug around, and have more capacity, while being capable of inflicting equally severe damage to an assailant.
@@fortj3 Why should the game's rules make concessions for an ill-performing piece of equipment? Sounds pretty strange to me. Maybe instead of giving themselves an "unfair" disadvantage by using .45 and then compensating with rules, people could just use the better cartridge for the application in the first place. I want a Super Major power factor so I can show up with a .500 S&W and still be competitive! All these light-recoiling non-magnum calibers have an unfair advantage over me!
The .22 loophole could be easily dealt with by restricting calibers to duty/defense-servicable calibers to keep with the "practical" shooting part of "IPSC".
This would also stop people from gaming the current system with light loaded .40 S&W, making .45 irrelevant anyway.
And yes, the 1911 is outdated. Low capacity, poor performing cartridge by modern standards, and the barrel link is an obvious design weakness. It is no coincidence that all of these things were changed by Browning himself in the Hi-Power.
The safety switch was positioned on the wrong spot, namely on the slide and worked counterintuitive, it is the same model as the S&W 745 and would never have made it anyway, at least not for long.
My S&W 4516 is like that, works great for me.
.357Sig has largely taken over .356TSW's role in a lot of countries that are calibre restricted to nothing higher than .38 cal, Australia, a few places in Europe and South America all use and allow .357Sig in Standard (the modern international version of limited), and it makes sense considering everywhere not cal restricted just uses .40S&W's but cal restricted countries without .40's can't access major PF scoring without using .357Sig.
Also for some reason a fair few Euro Federal and State police agencies use .357Sig as their duty firearm calibre of choice.
For the same (sometimes slightly better) magazine capacity, the .357 SIG has more power than the .40 S&W, and does better through barriers than pretty much any other standard "duty" pistol round.
Fantastic looking piece, with a fantastic story. "The pistol so good, they changed the rules".
Good story factor👌🏼.
A friend of mine's dad bought one of these back in the day. He has the 9mm barrel, but he still reloads 356 tsw. I shot it once and fell in love with it.
I don't know much about pistols but that is probably the nicest looking pistol I've ever seen. I love that 2 tone look.
i think a similar thing happened to the 9x25 Dillon, which is a 10mm Auto necked down to 9mm (basically a .357 on steroids). It's main advantage was lost when the rules were changed
I don’t think it was unfair to S&W, honestly. This was a transitional time for practical shooting, granted, but they were trying to exploit IPSC’s attempts to keep the limited category as open and inclusive as possible.
I recall in the 1980’s, anyone with a 1911 Hardballer could compete internationally and not have to worry about being beaten by another shooter because they had better equipment. It was all down to the individual’s skill with a handgun.
yep, this gun advantage (mainly ammo capacity that double the 1911) are 1 thing that make this gun "unfair" if it being allowed into the competition especially fast shooting.
This was so entertaining and informative thank you Ian for this vid
This is sort of like the Chaparral 2J that used a fan to create a vacuum under the car to "suck" it down onto the road. It was outlawed by the SCCA because of this. This gun produced an effect in its own sport similar to that of the 2J, leading to a rules change.
I worked in a gun shop from 93-95. I think i heard part of this story. I remember some buzz about the 356, but it never really materialized. Seems like the 357 Sig came out in early to mid 94 also, IIRC. I remember several mfrs brought out "Limited" guns in this tine frame also. The first one i remember was Para-Ordnance. IPSC always seemed too game oriented to me. IDPA seems more practical, although they too have some rules minutiae. Anyway, fun gun. S&W did a few interesting things back then. Great video as always. Thank you
That is a beautiful pistol, god damn. A work of art.
that 2 tone finish style looks really cool
I really miss 3rd Gen S&Ws. They was all tanks. I have a 5906 cir 1993 that I still carry and shoot regularly and its like new.
There's a very good reason to limit case pressure to SAAMI standards. All firearms sold in the US have to conform to said standard. They're pressure tested by a proofing body using a proofing load designed to generate something like 1.5x standard maximum case pressure. For a few testing shots (to make sure the damn thing is built well enough) going up to the safety factor isn't a problem, but if you consistently shoot overpressure ammunition you WILL create a nice little fatigue crack in your chamber, which will eventually 'splode as a result.
Limiting loads to SAAMI pressure is absolutely the sensible thing to do here. Y'all are there to have fun, not to have your face scraped off the ceiling.
My state's highway patrol use .357 SIG guns, so it hasn't completely died out. Several metropolitan police units use it as standard issue as well for the additional penetration power on automobiles. Just an interesting fact.
Thank you, so much! I've seen this pop up in a couple of videogames and airsoft and never understood quite what it was. Thank for this!
Ian repeated misspeaks, saying "muzzle brake" when he means "compensator;" muzzle brakes are aimed at countering recoil, whereas compensators are for countering muzzle rise or "flip." I know, a niggling detail, esp. as a brake helps w/ controlling muzzle rise, but the differing end goals affect the designs of these attachments making them noticeably different in configuration. In other respects, as always, a fabulous trip down the rabbit hole of FW!
Please do some more videos like this, I enjoyed learning about this odd ball cartridge!!
Just appearance wise, this is one of the nicest-looking S&W autoloaders I've ever seen.
Excellent commentary & history of what happened to the TSW
This is an excellent looking competition handgun. I almost would love to have one for carry, but I imagine the ammunition is probably rather expensive, no? I haven't heard of 356 before, so I am simply imagining it is a more exotic type. Thanks for the review, Ian.
I love me some S&W 3rd gen.