First of all I want to thank you for your truly good and helpful tutorial videos about VFR Cross Country Planning ! Secondly ... in Spain we use the rule of the PI (Par(Even)/Impar(Ood)). So, you can remember the "number or letter π (pi)" and there you have: Flying West is "P", Flying East is "I" Have a nice day !
Awesome! It is a nice airport. I know you likely had other things on your mind, but did you get a chance to try the Mexican restaurant Avion Azul? It is pretty good! Thank you for the comment!
Good video, great questions. My mnemonic for this was just to remember my old friend Neodd Sweven or N&E ODD S&W EVEN. Works every time flying out of KDBQ and elsewhere.
Ahhh yes. That old friend. Excellent, and thanks for sharing! I’ve flown into and out of KDBQ several times. If you make it to KRST, stop into Great Planes Aviation and say “Hi”.
I remember that the logical way to work out which height to fly at would have been to say that East is Even, but then I remember my indignation on finding out the the FAA had decided the complete opposite. In other words - I rely on my fury to remember it.
I agree. :) I have always thought that East is Even would have made more sense. Does anybody know the history behind the altitude rule? I've done some research and not been able to discover any helpful history. Thanks for the comment!
Thank you for the comment. Have you seen the other videos in the “Cross Country Planning” playlist? I’m still adding to them, but the intent is that it will walk through each step of the process. Hopefully seeing more of them will help. Thank you for watching!!
A lot of people seem to have methods of remembering that could easily be misremembered depending on how they say it. I offer one that helps no matter what. Look at a compass. The east is anywhere from 0 to 179 degrees. And the west is anywhere from 180 to 359. The two numbers on the bottom (179 east and 180 west) are odd and even respectively
Hi absolutely love the clarity in the precision that you teach and train her and keep the little humor in it that’s great I was wondering if at the end of each of your teachings if you could summit up so I could take a picture and study it thanks so much you’re a great Traner thank you
Yes, in my head I said Maximum, but that isn’t what came out of my mouth. And, I missed it in edit, too! There was someone else that pointed it out. When they did, I thought to myself “They must have heard wrong”, but they (and you) heard correctly, I just said it wrong. thank you for the correction, and thank you for watching!
Thta's great! I'll definitely use it for my flights and will mentioned it on my checkride I think. Speaking, I've just created new achrohym from it - MARCADA. I guess, It's Spanish. It stays for Map, Aircraft, Route, Clouds, Airspace, Direction and Aloft. One day I'll be a CFI so I will spread it )
Yes, that's mine too but checked to see if already mentioned. Since I'm no Yankee fan I also use "East is Least" but that seems to rub it in a little too much.
Good morning, I'm Italian so not much of a concern with extreme cold temperatures however this is not the case in the US which is a continent itself. I'd also take in account when flying FLs: - temperature colder than ISA (temp. Difference at msl is enough) - and the lowest Regional Pressure Setting (QNH LESS THAN 1013 or 29.92) Best regards and safe flights
You are correct. There are weather-related factors this video doesn’t address. Another viewer mentioned icing. I’m working on another video that will explore weather and decision making in more detail. I agree with you, getting pounded by turbulence to save a few minutes, doesn’t sound like a good trade. Thanks for sharing the comment!!
Consider the following (partial) ASOS for the trip at 4500: 27005KT 10SM -RA BKN060 08/03 Nothing in your questions above would say "no, this is a bad idea" for your 4500MSL, but it really is ... icing can spoil your whole day if it happens!
You are absolutely right. Ice is nothing to mess with, especially in our, little aircraft. In fact, with that weather report, there are a few things that might make us reconsider making the trip in the first place. As you note, we haven’t spoken at all about freezing levels, temp/dewpoint spreads, visibility, AIRMETs, SIGMETs, or other factors that must be part of any go/no-go decision. I hope to make a future video (or perhaps a few videos) that walk through this. In the mean time, the rest of us should keep Chris’ comment in mind. Ice can make things much more exciting than we’d like. Thank you for watching and thank you for taking the time to put together the comment and the example! I hope others find it helpful, too!
In Florida cruising altitudes are unofficially different for IFR since the state is a narrow peninsula. Therefore when flying north, controllers assign odd & even for south.
@ScottKoonCFI Pronounced "Leero", when i tell fellow students they look at me like i just invented fire....20 years usmc infantry made me the acronym king
3:20 It is a nice trick to use the chart backwards. However, I believe you are short changing yourself about 500 ft by using the METAR surface temperature. Notice the embedded example with the dashed lines tells you to use "Cruise OAT" for that part of the calculation.
Thank you! Nice catch! It could be even worse than that. In local discussions we've gone back and forth on this a bit. Another missing piece is that using only one set of lines on that chart estimates the time fuel and distance to climb from sea level to the indicated pressure altitude rather than from the surface to the true altitude. Others have pointed out that there is also no consideration of wind. All are true. The intention of the rule of thumb was to come up with something that can be used with easily acquired information and as few calculations as possible to reasonably limit the number of altitude choices. So, to date, we've left it as we learned it. Thank you for another good (and really helpful) comment! What do others think? Do you have other ways to help determine what altitude to fly?
Yes. Old Neodd Sweven. Seems to be a popular guy. It is funny to me that I didn't hear anything about him until about five years ago. When I was working on my Private Pilot is was all about East is ODD and West is EVEN odder. Thank you for sharing!!
Thanks for the question! My flight instructor taught it to me. Please note: It isn't intended to be a hard and fast rule. Rather, it is more of a "rule of thumb". The reasoning behind it is that there are three major phases of a cross-country flight--climb, cruise, and descent. Since climb uses the most fuel and often has the slowest ground speed, we want to get to cruise altitude at or before the first third of your flight to enjoy the more favorable fuel burn and faster speeds for at least 2/3 of the flight. As noted in the video, there may be times when you need a certain altitude and won't be able to follow this "rule of thumb". But--especially for shorter trips--this can be a useful guide to limit the number of choices. I have heard other instructors offer similar "rules of thumb". If your instructor uses something different, please use what your instructor suggests. And, if you would please describe it here in the comments. I'd love to hear what others use. We are all learning and the more we think about these things, the better pilots we'll be! I hope this helps. Thank you for the question!
There are a couple of exceptions, but generally, “yes”. Probably the biggest exception is if you are flying 3,000 or less AGL. But, in general, as long as you are reversing the route, your altitude should be different. I hope this helps.
Where I live in SW Montana, MEF's on SkyVector are 11,000' for tall mountains, but most mountains in the area are much lower. Adding 500' over unpopulated areas and 1,000' over towns gets it to 11,500' and 12,000' (over towns). Using East is odd, and West is Even, means going East, need to fly at 11,500' over unpopulated areas 13,500' over towns? That's getting really close to the service ceiling of a Cessna 152 or 172 (about 14,000', but can be as low as 13,000'). Also, all of this is >12,500' so would need to be on Oxygen the entire time? I haven't had a lesson in a while, but am trying to learn. From my lessons, I don't remember seeing oxygen bottle, much less having oxygen on the entire time. What confuses me on all of this is when I check real flights on the "FlightAware" app, I see Cessna's regularly flying between towns at 8,000' or 9,000' from town to town in the same area. Having a hard time understanding this... Any help is appreciated.
Thanks for the question. The short answer is that MEFs are very useful, but not regulatory. The MEF is a quick way you can look at a sectional and decide an altitude (or altitudes) that should keep you away from ground-based obstacles. If you fly above the MEF of a current sectional, the FAA is saying that you will be above the highest obstacle within that quadrant. However, it isn’t illegal to fly below the MEF altitude as long as you are adhering to 14 CFR 91.119 (Minimum safe altitudes: General.). I hope this helps. I do have a video I’m working on that explores this a little more. The working title is “How Low Can You Go?”. I hope to have it uploaded soon. Thanks agin!
@@ScottKoonCFI Thank you so much for the response and clarifying that for me. It's extremely helpful. There's just so much to learn. Your videos really do help.
Thanks for the question. The biggest differences are where you find them, and the obstacle clearance they provide. The Maximum Elevation Figure (MEF) is the altitude on the FAA Sectional chart calculated to ensure obstacle clearance during VFR flight. With that in mind, the method of calculation only guarantees 100ft over man made obstacles and 200 ft over natural obstacles. Minimum Off Route Altitude (MORA) is a term and value found on Jeppesen, IFR Low Altitude Enroute charts. It’s purpose is to ensure Instrument Flight Rules obstacle clearances. MORA ensures 1000 foot ground-based obstacle clearance over non-mountainous terrain, and 2000ft clearance over mountainous terrain. But, you won’t find MORA on an FAA chart. Instead, the FAA has a similar feature for IFR charts called Off Route Obstruction Clearance Altitude (OROCA). I hope this helps.
the simplest mnemonic i know is “wEst” i personally use “eeyore” (from winnie the pooh) because spoken out loud it has the Ee from East and the O from Odd. East Odd, EeyOre
East isn't even, it's odd. (Or I find it odd that east isn't even). So is it whole trip or do you change Altitude based on your current way point. My understanding is it's supposed to be based on your final destination, but I had ATC make me change my altitude before based on my current heading. (On flight following)
I especially like “I find it Odd that East isn’t Even”. Thank you! As for your question, there are some things, such as traffic, meteorological conditions, or aircraft operational limitations that may make this impossible, but otherwise if you are traveling in a different direction for an appreciable amount of time, you should adjust altitude to conform with 91.159. And as you’ve noted, when on Flight Following, ATC will help you comply. Maintaining these altitudes makes “see and avoid” at least a little easier. Something that makes this a little confusing is that when you file a flight plan, there is only one place for Cruising Altitude (Box 7). For this box, you should use the predominant cruising altitude. I hope this helps. Thank you for your comment and your question!
AT the 4 min mark in your video, you indicated "...1000 ft above or below any ceilings." Is it correct that we cannot fly through a ceiling for VFR flight?
You are correct. A pilot flying VFR cannot fly *through* a ceiling. However, depending on how widespread a layer is, it is possible for a VFR pilot to legally fly above a broken or overcast layer . It would have required an area of clear, few or scattered clouds to climb above the layer and the pilot would need to find the same conditions to come back down. It is called “VFR Over-the-top”, and depending on the layer, it can significantly increase the risk of VFR into IFR conditions. There are also some additional aircraft equipment requirements, so I won’t go into much more detail. I’ll just say doing so should be considered carefully. To what I think is the point of your question… it would have been better for me to have said 1000ft above or below any clouds. I truly appreciate the question. I’m sure it will help others. Thank you for the comment.
Thanks for the reply. I kind of thought your follow up would be as it was. I think one would have to truly be able to predict the weather to go VFR-on-top. Even if one felt comfortable with developing IFR skills that would be dangerous and most likely illegal too. 😅
Thank you for the comment! There are times when VFR Over-the-Top can be useful as a tool, but as you noted it can be more risky. These types of discussions are helpful to all of us. They help me make better videos and, hopefully, they help others explore and learn more about the concepts! Thanks!
Good question. Yes. Legally, you could fly at any altitude in any direction between 3,500 and 4,236 MSL. However, things that keep your eyes outside the cockpit are safer. Sticking with either thousand foot altitudes or thousand foot plus 500 when flying over distance and using a “steam gauge” altimeter it is easier to determine at a glance if you are holding correct altitude. At the thousand foot levels the hundreds hand points straight up. At thousands plus 500 foot levels the hundreds hand will be pointing straight down. Plus, holding a thousand foot altitude could put you in the way of aircraft flying/practicing IFR. While they are also participating in “see and avoid”, they are much busier inside the cockpit and might not see you. So, I tend to stick with thousands plus 500 for VFR cross country flight. I hope this helps. Thanks for the comment and question!
@ScottKoonCFI Wouldn't a thousand plus 250 be safer, then? Providing 250 ft of separation with the guys that fly at thousand + 500? 😬 Also, I'm a bit surprised we can go up to 4236 ft. Wouldn't it be more logical to maintain 500 ft of separation with the first level? I thought the regulations would say something like this.
FAR § 91.159 specifies that above 3000 ft AGL, unless ATC has assigned something different, you must be using the hemispherical rule for VFR cruising altitudes. So, to be legal when cruising above 3000 AGL, you need to be at even or odd thousands plus 500 ft. The reason I mentioned 4236 MSL as the limit is because in that area of the US, 4236 MSL is equal to 3000 AGL. In mountainous areas, 3000 AGL would be even higher. In low-lying areas, 3000 AGL would be much closer to 3000 MSL. Below 3000 AGL, you are free to use whatever altitude works most comfortably for you. So, if you’d like to (and can) offset by 250 feet that is perfectly legal. However, no matter your altitude or direction of flight, the key is to NEVER rely solely on specific altitudes to protect you. “See and avoid” needs to be your primary tool. Thanks!
What is for the majority of your flight you go southeast, but for 20 miles or so you must go southwest. Do you change your cruising altitude for just that segment?
Thanks for the question. The short answer is “yes”. The purpose of the VFR cruising altitudes is to keep traffic separated. With that in mind, if your cruising direction changes and you are above 3000ft AGL, you should change altitude. There are some things that might suggest exceptions (obstacle avoidance, weather, aircraft performance, other air traffic to name a few), but for the most part, you should plan to follow the altitude guidelines. I hope this helps. Thanks again for the question!!
I like this one. It is different and memorable. I think those of us that haven't had "East is ODD and West is EVEN odder" banged into our heads will find this useful. Thanks for sharing!!
You are correct! Not sure what happened. I had to go back and look, because I couldn’t believe I’d said Minimum Elevation Figures-but I did. Then I missed it again during editing. Thanks for the comment!!
This is a little of an art form. First, I look for the closest station (or stations if it is a longer trip) to my route. If there are two equidistant stations, I try to use the least favorable report. My reasoning is that I am trying to ensure I don’t run out of fuel, so using the least favorable wind report should ensure I have a buffer. Additionally, Foreflight and other flight planning tools actually make this a little easier. They interpolate wind direction, temperatures, and speeds and provide calculated Winds and Temps aloft forecasts for EVERY airport. I hope this helps! Thanks for the comment!
@Scott Koon CFI yeah it helps, thanks. It's just that I'm not aloud to use apps until I demonstrate I can do it without them. I'm planning a training flight from KOKV to KSHD and there are NO nearby stations. I end up doing my own interpolation fir the 3 nearest ones for 3 or 4 different levels to determine best altitude to fly. TAKES A LOT OF MANUAL TIME to do that and I'm wondering if Im overthinking or trying to hard,lol.
Hmmm… Will your instructor let you use the official NWS Aviation site? If so, the GFA tool (aviationweather.gov/gfa) could be very helpful. It will allow you to put in a flight route, then allow you to zoom in and view the different TAF (over time), as well as give you graphical representations of the temperatures, winds, and other info at different levels and times. It won’t eliminate the need for interpolation, but you can see at a glance which altitude levels would be most favorable, so it should cut down on the number of calculations you need to do. I have my students use this to reduce their workload at least a little. I hope this helps.
That was interesting. At least that way I can visually see in 3 clicks which altitude to pick going one direction vs. the other. I'm sure my instructor would use an app (ForeFlight) based on the same (govt) data to confirm my decisions, so he shouldn't have a problem lem with this. THANK YOU for this insight. I've been on that site countless times but obviously not familiar with all its tools.
@@ScottKoonCFI i don’t mean to say “creepy” awkward maybe a better description. I can totally understand that it must be tough to film yourself and i know when im on film i feel embarrassed and it makes me weird. Your videos are otherwise extremely well presented, your speech has good cadence and your do a wonderful job clearly and concisely explaining things. I really like your videos and i hope i didn’t come off as harsh. You’re the man for making them and they are extremely helpful
No worries. Thank you for the additional comment! I truly appreciate the feedback. I want to make my videos as watchable and informative as possible and comments like yours are very helpful. Thanks again!
Just remember the number 21. If you go towards the 2. It’s even If you go towards the 1 its odd. Very simple and for some psychological reason the number 21 is the easiest numbers to remember
King’s, I think, teaches ONE: “Odd North East”. I have found that I can’t screw that up, so it’s definitely a winner for me.
Another good one! Thank you for sharing!
This video was the cherry on top on making cross country planning easier Thank You
Awesome! Glad it was helpful!
You could remember that east is 90 degrees and 9 is odd. West is 270 degrees, 2 is even.
I like it! Simple, easy to use, and anchored to something obvious in case you forget. Thank you for sharing!
I'm glad I fly helicopters and am basically always under 3000 AGL. Makes life so much easier!
Yes. And, you can stop in midair (if necessary). Thanks for the comment!
Best thing about Scott’s videos are his short smirky laughs! Love it❤
Thank you!!!
I love how you tied it all up with how answering these questions in order practically made the decision for us. Good job!
Thank you so much! I’m glad you liked it!
Marvelous!! Your help with these videos is greatly appreciated. :)
Glad you like them! Thanks for commenting!!!
Your videos are always so much fun to watch. You have great info and presented for newer pilots like myself..
Thank you! I’m glad you enjoy them. Best of luck on your aviation journey!
That little chuckle he does when he has worked out the calculation. Lovely stuff 3:27
Thank you! It is interesting that the chuckle has become controversial. But either way, thank you for the comment! Have a wonderful day!
Great presentation. Thanks
You are very welcome! Thank you for commenting!
First of all I want to thank you for your truly good and helpful tutorial videos about VFR Cross Country Planning !
Secondly ... in Spain we use the rule of the PI (Par(Even)/Impar(Ood)). So, you can remember the "number or letter π (pi)" and there you have: Flying West is "P", Flying East is "I"
Have a nice day !
That is excellent! Thank you for sharing!! I’m so glad you found the video helpful!
This was a nice practical video
Thank you! I’m glad you found it useful!
Great video Scott
Thank you Shoua!
Great video! Two weeks ago I few to KMCW for my solo cross country as a private student. This video was made for me!
Awesome! It is a nice airport. I know you likely had other things on your mind, but did you get a chance to try the Mexican restaurant Avion Azul? It is pretty good!
Thank you for the comment!
@@ScottKoonCFI I did not unfortunately, but my CFI told me it is good!
Good video, great questions. My mnemonic for this was just to remember my old friend Neodd Sweven or N&E ODD S&W EVEN. Works every time flying out of KDBQ and elsewhere.
Ahhh yes. That old friend. Excellent, and thanks for sharing! I’ve flown into and out of KDBQ several times. If you make it to KRST, stop into Great Planes Aviation and say “Hi”.
I remember that the logical way to work out which height to fly at would have been to say that East is Even, but then I remember my indignation on finding out the the FAA had decided the complete opposite. In other words - I rely on my fury to remember it.
I agree. :) I have always thought that East is Even would have made more sense. Does anybody know the history behind the altitude rule? I've done some research and not been able to discover any helpful history.
Thanks for the comment!
I always say "West is Weven" lol
@@rroach8515 Funny! I like it! Thanks for sharing!
My flight school says "NEOdd Sweven. North to East - Odd, South to West - Even.
Thanks for sharing!
Someday this will make sense. New to the channel and a start of a journey.
Thank you for the comment. Have you seen the other videos in the “Cross Country Planning” playlist? I’m still adding to them, but the intent is that it will walk through each step of the process. Hopefully seeing more of them will help. Thank you for watching!!
thank well made video.
Thank you!
Thank you!
You are very welcome! Thanks for the comment!
A lot of people seem to have methods of remembering that could easily be misremembered depending on how they say it. I offer one that helps no matter what.
Look at a compass. The east is anywhere from 0 to 179 degrees. And the west is anywhere from 180 to 359. The two numbers on the bottom (179 east and 180 west) are odd and even respectively
Ingenious! Thanks for sharing!
Hi absolutely love the clarity in the precision that you teach and train her and keep the little humor in it that’s great I was wondering if at the end of each of your teachings if you could summit up so I could take a picture and study it thanks so much you’re a great Traner thank you
Thanks for the suggestion! Let me think on this and see how I might integrate it into the videos!
Hi Scott, the MEF is maximum not minimum as you said in the video. Best, Ed
Yes, in my head I said Maximum, but that isn’t what came out of my mouth. And, I missed it in edit, too! There was someone else that pointed it out. When they did, I thought to myself “They must have heard wrong”, but they (and you) heard correctly, I just said it wrong. thank you for the correction, and thank you for watching!
Thta's great! I'll definitely use it for my flights and will mentioned it on my checkride I think.
Speaking, I've just created new achrohym from it - MARCADA. I guess, It's Spanish. It stays for Map, Aircraft, Route, Clouds, Airspace, Direction and Aloft. One day I'll be a CFI so I will spread it )
Awesome! I’ll share this with my students, too. Thanks!
I personally use "West is Best" because I'm west coast biased. Even just feels best to me, so that's how I remember.
Awesome! Thanks for sharing!
Yes, that's mine too but checked to see if already mentioned. Since I'm no Yankee fan I also use "East is Least" but that seems to rub it in a little too much.
I just remember that E (even on left) comes before O (odd on right) moving left to right for altitudes
Yes. That makes a lot of sense! Thanks for sharing!!
That is the best one I have come across. It makes so much sense. Thank you.
Good morning, I'm Italian so not much of a concern with extreme cold temperatures however this is not the case in the US which is a continent itself.
I'd also take in account when flying FLs:
- temperature colder than ISA (temp. Difference at msl is enough)
- and the lowest Regional Pressure Setting (QNH LESS THAN 1013 or 29.92)
Best regards and safe flights
Thank you for the comment!
Growing up in the western world, I just have a perception of the 'far east' being strange, or odd. Weird, but that's how I remember it.
If it works, it works! Thank you for sharing!
Same here NY odd... they are east
There is also turbulence to consider…. Low level winds and thermals can make higher better even with headwinds.
You are correct. There are weather-related factors this video doesn’t address. Another viewer mentioned icing. I’m working on another video that will explore weather and decision making in more detail. I agree with you, getting pounded by turbulence to save a few minutes, doesn’t sound like a good trade.
Thanks for sharing the comment!!
179 and below stay odd 180 and above is even. The linking of the odd 179 and even 180 does the memory trick for me
Excellent! I haven’t run across this one before. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing!
East is least and west is best. Thanks.
Excellent! Thank you for sharing!
Consider the following (partial) ASOS for the trip at 4500:
27005KT 10SM -RA BKN060 08/03
Nothing in your questions above would say "no, this is a bad idea" for your 4500MSL, but it really is ... icing can spoil your whole day if it happens!
You are absolutely right. Ice is nothing to mess with, especially in our, little aircraft. In fact, with that weather report, there are a few things that might make us reconsider making the trip in the first place. As you note, we haven’t spoken at all about freezing levels, temp/dewpoint spreads, visibility, AIRMETs, SIGMETs, or other factors that must be part of any go/no-go decision. I hope to make a future video (or perhaps a few videos) that walk through this.
In the mean time, the rest of us should keep Chris’ comment in mind. Ice can make things much more exciting than we’d like.
Thank you for watching and thank you for taking the time to put together the comment and the example! I hope others find it helpful, too!
I got "SWEVEN vs NEODD" :
From S going W = EVEN (SWEVEN)
From N going E = ODD (NEODD)
Excellent! Thank you for sharing!
In Florida cruising altitudes are unofficially different for IFR since the state is a narrow peninsula.
Therefore when flying north, controllers assign odd & even for south.
Interesting. I had heard that, but haven’t flown in Florida enough to experience it. Thanks for sharing.
Military acronym i made.
LERO+500
Left even/ Right odd
In reference to which side of compass your direction is. I better get a sticker for this😂
You definitely get a sticker for this!! Excellent work! Thanks for sharing!!
@ScottKoonCFI
Pronounced "Leero", when i tell fellow students they look at me like i just invented fire....20 years usmc infantry made me the acronym king
Love it! I’ll share this with my local students, too. I’m sure it will help them. Thanks for sharing!!
3:20 It is a nice trick to use the chart backwards. However, I believe you are short changing yourself about 500 ft by using the METAR surface temperature. Notice the embedded example with the dashed lines tells you to use "Cruise OAT" for that part of the calculation.
Thank you! Nice catch!
It could be even worse than that. In local discussions we've gone back and forth on this a bit. Another missing piece is that using only one set of lines on that chart estimates the time fuel and distance to climb from sea level to the indicated pressure altitude rather than from the surface to the true altitude. Others have pointed out that there is also no consideration of wind. All are true.
The intention of the rule of thumb was to come up with something that can be used with easily acquired information and as few calculations as possible to reasonably limit the number of altitude choices. So, to date, we've left it as we learned it.
Thank you for another good (and really helpful) comment!
What do others think? Do you have other ways to help determine what altitude to fly?
I remember the circle rules by the the first (1 is an odd number) 180° of the circle and the second (2 is an even number) 180°.
I've not seen this one before. Excellent! Thank you for sharing!
East is least/West is best :)
Awesome! Thank you for sharing!!
I learned Neodd and Sweven too. North and all of east odd thousands plus 500. South and all of west even thousands plus 500.
Yes. Old Neodd Sweven. Seems to be a popular guy. It is funny to me that I didn't hear anything about him until about five years ago. When I was working on my Private Pilot is was all about East is ODD and West is EVEN odder. Thank you for sharing!!
Maybe this is too obvious to state, but more altitude is always safer in an emergency with all other things being equal.
Nope not too obvious at all. An excellent point. Thanks for commenting!
How did you come up with the rule to only use a third of your flight distance for climb?
Thanks for the question! My flight instructor taught it to me.
Please note: It isn't intended to be a hard and fast rule. Rather, it is more of a "rule of thumb".
The reasoning behind it is that there are three major phases of a cross-country flight--climb, cruise, and descent. Since climb uses the most fuel and often has the slowest ground speed, we want to get to cruise altitude at or before the first third of your flight to enjoy the more favorable fuel burn and faster speeds for at least 2/3 of the flight.
As noted in the video, there may be times when you need a certain altitude and won't be able to follow this "rule of thumb". But--especially for shorter trips--this can be a useful guide to limit the number of choices.
I have heard other instructors offer similar "rules of thumb". If your instructor uses something different, please use what your instructor suggests. And, if you would please describe it here in the comments. I'd love to hear what others use. We are all learning and the more we think about these things, the better pilots we'll be!
I hope this helps. Thank you for the question!
@@ScottKoonCFI thanks for the reply, and keep up the good videos.
@@21trips Thank you!
So, the altitude changes on the way back from my route? Correct?
If I was even on the way there, I'm odd on the way back?
There are a couple of exceptions, but generally, “yes”. Probably the biggest exception is if you are flying 3,000 or less AGL. But, in general, as long as you are reversing the route, your altitude should be different. I hope this helps.
Where I live in SW Montana, MEF's on SkyVector are 11,000' for tall mountains, but most mountains in the area are much lower. Adding 500' over unpopulated areas and 1,000' over towns gets it to 11,500' and 12,000' (over towns). Using East is odd, and West is Even, means going East, need to fly at 11,500' over unpopulated areas 13,500' over towns? That's getting really close to the service ceiling of a Cessna 152 or 172 (about 14,000', but can be as low as 13,000'). Also, all of this is >12,500' so would need to be on Oxygen the entire time? I haven't had a lesson in a while, but am trying to learn. From my lessons, I don't remember seeing oxygen bottle, much less having oxygen on the entire time. What confuses me on all of this is when I check real flights on the "FlightAware" app, I see Cessna's regularly flying between towns at 8,000' or 9,000' from town to town in the same area. Having a hard time understanding this... Any help is appreciated.
Thanks for the question. The short answer is that MEFs are very useful, but not regulatory. The MEF is a quick way you can look at a sectional and decide an altitude (or altitudes) that should keep you away from ground-based obstacles. If you fly above the MEF of a current sectional, the FAA is saying that you will be above the highest obstacle within that quadrant. However, it isn’t illegal to fly below the MEF altitude as long as you are adhering to 14 CFR 91.119 (Minimum safe altitudes: General.). I hope this helps. I do have a video I’m working on that explores this a little more. The working title is “How Low Can You Go?”. I hope to have it uploaded soon.
Thanks agin!
@@ScottKoonCFI Thank you so much for the response and clarifying that for me. It's extremely helpful. There's just so much to learn. Your videos really do help.
You are very welcome! Glad the videos are helpful. You are right, there is so much to learn. It is definitely a continuous process. Enjoy!!
"East is Least and West is Best." Least is odd altitudes and Best are even altitudes.
Love it!
What's the difference between the MEF and grid MORA?
Thanks for the question. The biggest differences are where you find them, and the obstacle clearance they provide.
The Maximum Elevation Figure (MEF) is the altitude on the FAA Sectional chart calculated to ensure obstacle clearance during VFR flight. With that in mind, the method of calculation only guarantees 100ft over man made obstacles and 200 ft over natural obstacles.
Minimum Off Route Altitude (MORA) is a term and value found on Jeppesen, IFR Low Altitude Enroute charts. It’s purpose is to ensure Instrument Flight Rules obstacle clearances. MORA ensures 1000 foot ground-based obstacle clearance over non-mountainous terrain, and 2000ft clearance over mountainous terrain. But, you won’t find MORA on an FAA chart. Instead, the FAA has a similar feature for IFR charts called Off Route Obstruction Clearance Altitude (OROCA).
I hope this helps.
the simplest mnemonic i know is “wEst”
i personally use “eeyore” (from winnie the pooh) because spoken out loud it has the Ee from East and the O from Odd. East Odd, EeyOre
I like these. Very easy to picture and use as memory anchors! Thank you for sharing!
East isn't even, it's odd. (Or I find it odd that east isn't even). So is it whole trip or do you change Altitude based on your current way point. My understanding is it's supposed to be based on your final destination, but I had ATC make me change my altitude before based on my current heading. (On flight following)
I especially like “I find it Odd that East isn’t Even”. Thank you!
As for your question, there are some things, such as traffic, meteorological conditions, or aircraft operational limitations that may make this impossible, but otherwise if you are traveling in a different direction for an appreciable amount of time, you should adjust altitude to conform with 91.159. And as you’ve noted, when on Flight Following, ATC will help you comply. Maintaining these altitudes makes “see and avoid” at least a little easier.
Something that makes this a little confusing is that when you file a flight plan, there is only one place for Cruising Altitude (Box 7). For this box, you should use the predominant cruising altitude.
I hope this helps. Thank you for your comment and your question!
AT the 4 min mark in your video, you indicated "...1000 ft above or below any ceilings." Is it correct that we cannot fly through a ceiling for VFR flight?
You are correct. A pilot flying VFR cannot fly *through* a ceiling. However, depending on how widespread a layer is, it is possible for a VFR pilot to legally fly above a broken or overcast layer . It would have required an area of clear, few or scattered clouds to climb above the layer and the pilot would need to find the same conditions to come back down. It is called “VFR Over-the-top”, and depending on the layer, it can significantly increase the risk of VFR into IFR conditions. There are also some additional aircraft equipment requirements, so I won’t go into much more detail. I’ll just say doing so should be considered carefully.
To what I think is the point of your question… it would have been better for me to have said 1000ft above or below any clouds. I truly appreciate the question. I’m sure it will help others. Thank you for the comment.
Thanks for the reply. I kind of thought your follow up would be as it was. I think one would have to truly be able to predict the weather to go VFR-on-top. Even if one felt comfortable with developing IFR skills that would be dangerous and most likely illegal too. 😅
Thank you for the comment! There are times when VFR Over-the-Top can be useful as a tool, but as you noted it can be more risky. These types of discussions are helpful to all of us. They help me make better videos and, hopefully, they help others explore and learn more about the concepts! Thanks!
6:17 Can't we fly at *any* altitude between 3500 and...4000 (?)?
Good question. Yes. Legally, you could fly at any altitude in any direction between 3,500 and 4,236 MSL. However, things that keep your eyes outside the cockpit are safer. Sticking with either thousand foot altitudes or thousand foot plus 500 when flying over distance and using a “steam gauge” altimeter it is easier to determine at a glance if you are holding correct altitude. At the thousand foot levels the hundreds hand points straight up. At thousands plus 500 foot levels the hundreds hand will be pointing straight down. Plus, holding a thousand foot altitude could put you in the way of aircraft flying/practicing IFR. While they are also participating in “see and avoid”, they are much busier inside the cockpit and might not see you. So, I tend to stick with thousands plus 500 for VFR cross country flight. I hope this helps. Thanks for the comment and question!
@ScottKoonCFI Wouldn't a thousand plus 250 be safer, then? Providing 250 ft of separation with the guys that fly at thousand + 500? 😬
Also, I'm a bit surprised we can go up to 4236 ft. Wouldn't it be more logical to maintain 500 ft of separation with the first level? I thought the regulations would say something like this.
FAR § 91.159 specifies that above 3000 ft AGL, unless ATC has assigned something different, you must be using the hemispherical rule for VFR cruising altitudes. So, to be legal when cruising above 3000 AGL, you need to be at even or odd thousands plus 500 ft.
The reason I mentioned 4236 MSL as the limit is because in that area of the US, 4236 MSL is equal to 3000 AGL. In mountainous areas, 3000 AGL would be even higher. In low-lying areas, 3000 AGL would be much closer to 3000 MSL.
Below 3000 AGL, you are free to use whatever altitude works most comfortably for you. So, if you’d like to (and can) offset by 250 feet that is perfectly legal.
However, no matter your altitude or direction of flight, the key is to NEVER rely solely on specific altitudes to protect you. “See and avoid” needs to be your primary tool.
Thanks!
What is for the majority of your flight you go southeast, but for 20 miles or so you must go southwest. Do you change your cruising altitude for just that segment?
Thanks for the question. The short answer is “yes”. The purpose of the VFR cruising altitudes is to keep traffic separated. With that in mind, if your cruising direction changes and you are above 3000ft AGL, you should change altitude. There are some things that might suggest exceptions (obstacle avoidance, weather, aircraft performance, other air traffic to name a few), but for the most part, you should plan to follow the altitude guidelines. I hope this helps. Thanks again for the question!!
@@ScottKoonCFI Thanks for the help!
You are very welcome!
EAST is LEAST (odd) WEST is BEST (EVEN) also works for altitudes
Thanks for the comment!!
Just remember it
Perfect. Thanks for the comment!
SWEVEN and NEODD 180 and west is Even and 360 and north is odd.
I like this one.
It is different and memorable. I think those of us that haven't had "East is ODD and West is EVEN odder" banged into our heads will find this useful.
Thanks for sharing!!
West is best - even
Awesome! Thanks for sharing!
maximum elev figures, not min :-) Nice vid though!
You are correct! Not sure what happened. I had to go back and look, because I couldn’t believe I’d said Minimum Elevation Figures-but I did. Then I missed it again during editing. Thanks for the comment!!
How do you decide which winds aloft stations to read?
This is a little of an art form. First, I look for the closest station (or stations if it is a longer trip) to my route. If there are two equidistant stations, I try to use the least favorable report. My reasoning is that I am trying to ensure I don’t run out of fuel, so using the least favorable wind report should ensure I have a buffer. Additionally, Foreflight and other flight planning tools actually make this a little easier. They interpolate wind direction, temperatures, and speeds and provide calculated Winds and Temps aloft forecasts for EVERY airport. I hope this helps! Thanks for the comment!
@Scott Koon CFI yeah it helps, thanks. It's just that I'm not aloud to use apps until I demonstrate I can do it without them. I'm planning a training flight from KOKV to KSHD and there are NO nearby stations. I end up doing my own interpolation fir the 3 nearest ones for 3 or 4 different levels to determine best altitude to fly. TAKES A LOT OF MANUAL TIME to do that and I'm wondering if Im overthinking or trying to hard,lol.
Hmmm… Will your instructor let you use the official NWS Aviation site? If so, the GFA tool (aviationweather.gov/gfa) could be very helpful. It will allow you to put in a flight route, then allow you to zoom in and view the different TAF (over time), as well as give you graphical representations of the temperatures, winds, and other info at different levels and times. It won’t eliminate the need for interpolation, but you can see at a glance which altitude levels would be most favorable, so it should cut down on the number of calculations you need to do. I have my students use this to reduce their workload at least a little. I hope this helps.
That was interesting. At least that way I can visually see in 3 clicks which altitude to pick going one direction vs. the other. I'm sure my instructor would use an app (ForeFlight) based on the same (govt) data to confirm my decisions, so he shouldn't have a problem lem with this. THANK YOU for this insight. I've been on that site countless times but obviously not familiar with all its tools.
@@kurtreber9813 Awesome! I'm glad that looks helpful!
I like your videos, theyre informative and you seem like a knowledgeable and nice guy
Please stop the creepy laughs
Thank you for the feed back. Others have mentioned it, too. Keep watching. My newer videos are edited differently. I believe you’ll like them better.
@@ScottKoonCFI i don’t mean to say “creepy” awkward maybe a better description. I can totally understand that it must be tough to film yourself and i know when im on film i feel embarrassed and it makes me weird. Your videos are otherwise extremely well presented, your speech has good cadence and your do a wonderful job clearly and concisely explaining things. I really like your videos and i hope i didn’t come off as harsh.
You’re the man for making them and they are extremely helpful
No worries. Thank you for the additional comment! I truly appreciate the feedback. I want to make my videos as watchable and informative as possible and comments like yours are very helpful. Thanks again!
"Odd people fly east."
Perfect! Thank you!
Just remember the number 21.
If you go towards the 2. It’s even
If you go towards the 1 its odd.
Very simple and for some psychological reason the number 21 is the easiest numbers to remember
Interesting! Thank you for sharing!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Thank you!
You kinda freak me out with that little giggle of yours, but over great delivery
Thanks for the comment!
Odd people fly east
Lol! Fair enough! Thanks for commenting!
West is binary, hence even, or not🤣
@@dtsh4451 🤣
Odd men go east.
Excellent! I’ve not heard that one, before. Thanks for sharing!
EAST IS LEAST WEST IS BEST
Excellent! Thank you!
Would not walk across the street to see a LS , Pure rat motor old school kind of guy.
Hmmm. Not sure I understand your comment. Would like to, though. Thanks.