The King James Bible Debate - August 14, 2021
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- čas přidán 18. 08. 2021
- On August 14th, 2021, Nathan Cravatt accepted a challenge by Cody Zorn to debate Mitch Cannup on the King James Only Position at Bible Missionary Baptist Church in Rockwell, NC. The Format was decided and 3 questions, written by Cody and Mitch, were proposed and accepted by Nathan. This is the full debate and Q&A session. Nothing was edited out.
Special thanks to @joshchapmonfilms for lending his talents on this project.
I learned of your channel through Mark Ward. Brother Nathan, you did a good job trying to stick to the point. I commend you on your self restraint. There were so many false/misleading/mis-interpreted statements made and veiled swipes at your spirituality....you demonstrated God's gift of self control to not address them when you had a chance. Your opponent seems sincere. But that doesn't make him right...even if "I've been doing this for 40+ years, bless God!"
I was born, raised and served in the KJO culture. I'm thankful for clearer vision over the last multiple years. I can appreciate your comments about the struggle internally when you realize that the old arguments don't stand up to scrutiny.
Please continue to pursue these topics in genuine humility and respect. As you all know, those still holding them are often sincere and trusting in them to be faithful.
You likely wont convince the leaders/fringe of anything, so don't feel like you have to focus on them.
Thank you, you have a new subscriber.
You were never saved to begin with. So what satanic version do you claim?
You have religion not the spirit of truth.
Came here from the dividing line. You've earned a subscriber brother. Very well done and I applaud you for the patience and confidence in which you spoke. "HAYMEN"!!!!
I was involved in Ruckmanism for 10 years, I'm thankful you be out of it now.
He is wrong about alot of things but not the book.
@@frustratedmajority851 AMEN!
At 1:15 (an hour, 15 minutes in) Brother Mitch goes into the inspiration of chapter and verse numbering. I guess numerology is no longer cultic when you re-name it numerics. I'm afraid that by his logic, God FAILED to preserve his word UNTIL 1611. I say this lovingly as a former KJV only-ist myself.
Luke 4:4
Matt 4:4
Deut 8:3
= 1611 So is this Satanic?
The supporters of the modern perversions still do not have God's perfectly preserved word. They never had God's perfectly preserved word and they never will. " Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Timothy 3.7)
Luke 4:4
Matt 4:4
Deut 8:3
Zechariah 4:6
= 2017, the year of publishing of the CSB. CSB onlyism? Hmm.
So is this good logic?
No, it's laughable.
2nd time sitting through this...watching this man being intellectually lampooned is bad enough...but watching him do it in the name of Christianity is downright painful. When ignorance becomes a virtue, it's time to reevaluate one's position.
I came here after watching the Dividing Line. I'm betting you'll notice a spike in subs now.
Welcome!!!
Looking forward to listening to the interview!
Same
Same!
Hahaha reason I’m here 😆
Amazing presentation of the gospel Nathan. Excellent, excellent job. I’ve been in the IFB my entire life, but in the last year my eyes have been truly, thankfully opened and when I found your RFP family…. I haven’t stopped consuming all the content. I’ve felt so understood, seen and not alone from listening to yalls podcast and all the other ones in the RFP family. I cannot tell y’all how truly thankful I am. Thank y’all so so much and keep the awesome content coming!
I was a former IFB but the IFB is not the standard. The KJV is the standard!
I don't attend 501C3 pagan buildings which all IFB churches are including about 99 percent of all these so called modern churches.
Acts 7:48, the most High deelleth not in pagan temples.
Glad to see this posted. Rockwell is not far from my house. I had something in Hickory that night, but I might have foregone that to come to this. It's interesting that the pastor here says to go express our opinion elsewhere, but on their CZcams posting of this asks that we not express our opinions elsewhere - then closes their comment section. I'll listen through this and express my opinion here if that's alright.
BTW, great discussion with James White on the DL last night.
John Knox preached the Coronation of King James.
That's John Knox the great calvinist reformer that had Mary exiled from Scotland.
Mary AKA Mary Stuart. The mother of James Stuart. AKA King James I and VI..
Saw your interview at A&O, and now this great debate!
Thanks to the Dividing Line I found this great debate. Love the work you do brother. Keep it up!
Much appreciated!
Why have the internet when you can make up your own history?🤷♂️
Yea I want to make up my own history so I end up King of the United States....Well that wouldn't be any worse then Biden.......Now I got my wheels turning lol.
I found that amusing. he thinks the internet is bad and yet he is on the internet currently and will be God willing in the future. 🤦🏻♂️
I was surprised by that
Outrageous claims like in the 1st century AD 2% of the world spoke Greek or
Modern English speakers use around 900 different words are the kind of nonsense one could normally only find online...
Or your own facts...
I’ve always been “kjv only”…it’s how I was raised. But for years I’ve been researching on my own and this discussion kind of really helped me settle that I’m not “kjv only” but I’m personally “kjv preferred.” Meaning I prefer the kjv but do not believe or force it as the only one usable. I appreciate you entering the lions den here to share your side and you did it well. I believe the other side shouted just because that’s all they know to do…you brought facts and presented viable arguments. Well done.
Thank you, James!
39:30 "And I didn't get my truth from Peter Ruckman. I got it from Oliver B Green!" LOL!!!
Maybe try getting truth from Jesus for once?
He SOUNDS a bit like Ruckman
He also reminds me of Sam Gipp 😱🤣
😅
Debate summary: KJV position- Circular reasoning and rallying the crowd with the KJV for the KJV position. Non KJV position- Direct answers using manuscript evidence with little to no crowd rallying.
You almost sound surprised.
Nathan, I just listened to you on The Dividing Line, and am about to listen to the full debate in a moment. Thank you and keep up the good work.
Good interview on A&O and fantastic debate sir.
Shalom Nathan from the Philippines islands ... I enjoyed the debate ... Praying you helped some people to be free from a kind of legalism keeping their minds from the many bible resourdes of our time. -Jeremiah
Thank you, Jeremiah!
only 20 % of the world speaks English, not 90%. There is so much error, that it negates any attempt at clarity and coherency. Wow, this is difficult to endure. However, Nathan did a great job, both in debate and composure.
After he said that, I immediately doubted every statistic and historical fact he threw out there.
Really? Your saying only 20% of the world understands English as a first or second language? Where do you get your stats from?
🤔 Chupp ⁉️ Now you have me curious. Let's see the numbers, please?
@@davidchupp4460 it’s called research
@@rayhchc6451 I typically don’t do research for others.
I think the thing that bothered me the most out of this whole debate was at 2:42:00 . It is where Mitch is asked if truth was added to the Bible in 1551 when the chapter and verse divisions were added since he stated earlier in the debate that he believed those divisions were inspired by God. The person asked him that yes-or-no question three times, and Mitch could NEVER answer the question. There were a lot of things in Mitch's "argument" that bothered me with how objectively false he was, but that may have been the most annoying. 😂
The world is going to hell in desperation of the Gospel and here we sit arguing about translations. 😂
I heard about this too from the Dividing Line. Funny though, when I tried to listen to this debate on Bible Missionary Baptist’s CZcams channel, they mute out the opposing arguments and speaker completely. You see him speaking with no audio. I was mind blown too, because their comments are turned off.
This is great. I thought Mr. Zorn did a good job moderating also.
Botïhiiéee tree lei is aliklplll
“Hey-man”…
A friendly reminder that King James, King Charles, and the translators of the Authorized Version (like Lancelot Andrewes) were good, God-fearing ANGLICANS 😉
Neither King James or Charles had ANYTHING to do w/the translation process
Mitch: -And every translator a calvanist!
Me, a calvanist: 👁️👄👁️❗
*Calvinist
Some things that bothered me was. Mitch said if you are not a KJV only person you are not saved. So every Christian before 1611 including Paul, John, and Peter were not saved. I searched and searched in the bible where Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no man cometh unto the Father but by Me and the King James Bible and I couldn't find it.
Exactly
Naw that's not what he means and you know it lol.
He saying he doubts anyone's salvation who can look at the evidence and choose 200+ new versions over the KJV... as do I. It shows serious spiritual blindness and lack of understanding... which means something is VERY wrong with them.
Might be as innocent as ignorance to the facts... but if you actually look at the evidence and HONESTLY study the issue out for a few months... and can't see why the KJV is Gods word in English... then you have serious serious issues going on.
I'm not talking about a few youtube videos... I'm talking about REALLY studying this issue out... which very few people do.
This was a fantastic discussion.
One side came to debate the facts; the other came to drum up the base and rally the faithful.
You guys earned a new subscriber today due to this debate. Thanks for doing the hard work to prepare and adequately get your message across.
Just discovered you through your discussion with James White, subscribed!
Likewise
Saw you on A&O. Good job on the debate! It's weird how some people put their trust in a specific english translation of the Bible... And when Mitch began babbling about 666 in the chapters and verses in the KJV I just had to laugh 🤣 May God bless you and your ministry
One came to preach and one came to teach.
Jesus was a teacher too. Preaching is great, but in a debate it's about facts.
Preaching is teaching and teaching is preaching.
Your statement is conceptually correct. Where the difference lies is in the Anointing of " The Holy Spirit" at the moment for the present occasion. @@igregmart
The main thing I take away from this debate is honestly how utterly weak the KJVO position is
I guess any "translation" is good for you? If ANY translation is good or has some truth in them, then what is your final authority? Where do you find absolute truth? Only ONE translation can be the words of God! Is it just that hard to say thee, thou, thine and sayest?
@@TheGreatPanicker I uh... never said any of that. I literally only said the debate showed how weak the KJVO position is...
Interestingly the first two words you said, "I guess", were the most accurate part of your comment... since it was 100% pure conjecture on your part.
@@agoodtheory never fails. "Only one translation ARGEHEHEHEH!"
It is very weak but I do have some sympathy for the TR position some of their arguments are good but they are more graceful yet I still think it fails as well.
If the KJB debater had been one of the big guns like Gipp, Riplinger, David Brown or Wlliam Grady the result would have been different. New versions weaken doctrinal passages or alter them to teach a denominational/ personal teaching
This debate SHOULD be the last nail in the coffin of KJVO. Well… maybe not the last nail. That’s already be driven. Nathan just showed up and polished the aforementioned coffin to a high shine, lowered it gently 6 foot into the grave and gracefully filled the hole with cement.
Good job!👍
The young guy lost just from a debate perspective.
Dr James White put the final nail in KJV onlyism
@@aaronnichols9444 James white raises points but their not knock out points. Their decent blows, but he has his own issues as a 5 point calvinist. A KO arguement which nobody uses is that King James was a 33 degree mason thus u have a Masonic King approving a bible which the Free Masons give to all Christians who join their lodge. Thats a significant red flag that should call the question to end KJV onlyism because of the "authority" and spirit of authority that commissioned the work....besides all the other issues.
Yeah! Great job bashing God’s word boys! Yippieeeeee!!!!
@@johndisalvo6283 prove that statement through God's word. GOD'S Word is actually Jesus Christ...made flesh. U do realize the KJV 1611 is not a pure translation and also was commissioned by a masonic King? U know this right? And further more 7 years of being translated from the high Anglican, calvinist and compromiser commission? Whats wrong with the 397 AD Council of Carthage that approved th cannon? Ur sentice slurs have no bibical bases
Great job, Nathan! You did a masterful job!
I sat in my living room and intending to watch 20 mins or so of this, before i knew it, i was going on hour number 3 and i could have stayed for another 3!
Well done to both of you. I do believe the King James Bible is more accurate and is my personal preference... However, to say that another sinner can not be saved by reading another version or translation is simply ridiculous.
Again, thanks to both participants for a lovely debate.
I agree if you approach the Bible with a pure heart and honestly seeking God you can get saved and I'm a kjb believer I'm a Bible believer
Translating from any language to another is not a black and white issue!! Well done, Nathan.
I am looking in my NKJV... the word "yet" in John 7:8 that Brother Mitch says is not in modern translations IS in mine....God's name in 1 Timothy 3:16 is in my NKJV. The Trinity is in my NKJV in 1 John 5:7.....
Those are all textual differences between the KJV and other modern versions
The NKJV is based upon the same original language texts as the KJV was...
Yeah NKJV is based on TR mostly with one or two other sources and has footnotes about what the critical text differences are. Many KJV only people incorrectly bash the NKJV. Reading the NKJV has changed me, transformed me, and brought me closer to God.
I was taught for years that the NKJV was not translated from the TR. It turns out that was a lie. I read the NKJV daily now.
@@customstoryteller~ Get your NKJV "bible" and read page eleven of the Dedication, now tell me again its the same as the TR, it's clearly right there in black & white that its not.
@@boldasalion6436 Tried to investigate your accusation and I have no idea what you’re talking about. I suspect that makes two of us. 🤷♂️
What on earth has naming cities got to do with bible preservation? This guy is nuts!
That’s part of the KJVO smoke screen.
“If ya can’t dazzle them w/ a solid argument, overwhelm them w/irrelevancy!”
I'm eight minutes in and the audio is MUCH better than the other stream.
Amen.
HAYMAN!
When Mitch said: "We're in the last generation; there ain't gonna be another one.", I knew right then and there that he is date-setting/time-framing false teacher.
Like Jim Jones.
You blind ??
The last generation always skips to the next one once the previous generation passes away.
@@1MarmadukeFan
That makes no sense.
@@BornAgain490 I think what theymeant was
One generation claims to be the last
Then they pass on and the following generation makes the same claim....
The Pro KJ only guy was destroyed in this. He consistently defends positions by character association/assassination and emotional appeals. He also does a lot of Gish Gallop. Look that debate tactic up. Never heard of Nathan but he clearly won this one.
Thats because Mitch used Bible. Shows your pretty ignorant in this area.
Hah, I am reformed and Calvinistic and yet it is clear that Mitch won.
@@igregmartAnd does your gospel require the KJV? Because that isn't reformed at all. That's heretical, and that's what he was promoting.
Poor Nathan.
Grossly outnumbered…
Opponent has home field advantage…
Fortunately since a debate is about the truth, and YOU brought it - THE truth. Your opponent operated like Prosecutor Binger in the Rittenhouse trial.
Outnumbered? He debated one man
I tell you what, selah.....my hairs stood up when Nathan stood in this den with poise and sincerity I am so grateful for this information to open my eyes praise God brothers
Nathan, I was really impressed with how you engaged with these people. It was more than obvious that you weren’t in it to win some debate-even though you did hands down-but that your heart was truly about helping these people. And you most certainly did by demonstrating to them the truth about King James Onlyism.
What was especially powerful is that you did this with grace and kindness and love.
The Spirit was indeed with you.
Very Nicely done.
It won’t return void.
Amen
No nathan came far from winning any debate he clearly denied the true word of GOD it plain and simple get biblical the ild king James says plainly I dont understand how people say they have discernment and they r anointed but they have a counterfeit knock off Bible in there hand the old king James says planly Revelation 22:18-19 (KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.Deuteronomy 4:2 (KJV) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.Proverbs 30:5-6 (KJV) Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.Revelation 19:13 (KJV) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.and It goes in one ear and out the other the 10 commandments say do not bare false witness well ur bunk bibles are false witness they have been rewrite by people who do not have authority do do so nkjv esv niv all of them r counterfeit every last one old king James is the true word of GOD.
Nathan might be younger, but he debated like a king👑
Mitch Canupp reminds me of a less intellectual William Jennings Bryan at the Scopes Trial when he appealed to how the verdict would affect Christian school children rather than argue the merits of the case.
I love how the cowards at the Missionary Baptist Church turned off comments to the video they posted on the debate. The administrators of their channel even requested in all caps for people not to express opinions of the debate on other videos. They know it was a terrible performance by their champion and don't want to be reminded of it.
1:30 no, Jesus isn't responsible for the damnation of anyone. Man is responsible for his own damnation. God however is graceful in that He elects some unto salvation. No one gets injustice. Some get justice, others get grace.
Hopefully he picks me for election.
I feel as a person that loves and was brought up on the KJV. Maybe some of these arguments could come down a notch or 2 if people just read the translators to the readers. It's almost as if the KJV only are simply not interested.
well yes, that's why it's king James ONLY
Mitch is a great politician, ignore the fact and drum up emotion. I believe he knows the truth about this topic and is too hardheaded to admit it.
He comes off like he's a bit of both. He really is that stupid, but he's also being deceitful.
Brother Nathan, Well Done ! The Easter passage and Acts 19:37 always bothered me as a KJV Only guy! Just subbed !!!
Brother Nathan stayed on topic Mitch was all over the place his history is faulty, no one badmouthed king james yet he went on about that but turned around and attacked All sorts of people with untrue facts taken out of context.
Nathan brought it in those 7 mins looking forward to the remaining debate
“I’m not a Protestant… I’m a Baptist!”…. 😳
“Do you think people would name 2 states after him if his father was a perv?”…
1: pretty sure we were still under England’s monarchy at that time.. so yea it’s entirely possible
2: we don’t conclude infallibility based on the character of an English King
It’s pretty clear history is not his strongest subject.
It really hurt my head listening to some of Brother Mitch's arguments. oh my goodness.
I am ex navy stationed in Scotland I stood in the room King James was born. From what i gathered from the locals He really wasn't much of a Christian. He just happened to be King when they translated the Bible and as King head of the church so He had to authorize it. He had nothing to do with the translation.
@@Trex-zm9gh INTERESTING!!!!
The circles that Mitch goes in just wasted time that he could have spent presenting an argument for the KJO stance. It's a shame he wasted the opportunity.
IF he succeeded at EFFECTIVELY presenting his argument, he’d be the first.
I’m adding this to a collection of SIX other debates that ended w/a LOT of egg on the face of KJ debater(s)
Listened again today. In the last answer Bro Cannup gave he stated "God put things in there [KJV] to test our faith". Couldn't the same argument be made - God gave us many accurate translations to test our faith?
Saying 'heymen' after each point, doesn't make it fact.
After being out of the IFB for a while, all it sounds like is confused seagulls.
also saying 'Bless God' so flippantly is irresponsible. I believe it's used in vain far too often. and I've heard it all my life.
"Baptist's have never been Protestant"....what?
"90% of the world speaks English."
WHAT?!?!
As a second language he may not be wrong? He did NOT say they spoke ONLY English. There is no more widespread and important language in the world today and probably for about the last century.
Duh, do you not realize that in all the continents of the civilized world English is taught alongside the 1st language of all modernized countries! You did not know that?
Shoulda had Steven Anderson involved to make it a PPV event...
Haha!
Bro, the most unbelievable thing in this is when you said you're 45. I assumed you were my age (35).
You know a debate is good when it can keep you rivited for over 3 hours straight. If I were there I would have asked the question(s): What is Koine Greek and why do you think the Holy Spirit inspired the authors to write (most) of the original New Testament books in that language?
Funny how I identified the non-KJB man right away.
The KJVO guy looks like James Earl Jones' white twin
I have used only the KJV for 20 years, but I have been exploring this issue lately. The KJV is still currently my first choice but Nathan gets the nod in this debate from me and his points were very helpful. Mitch's arguments were unimpressive, and that is being nice.
I am like you. Grew up KJV ONLY but now KJV PREFERRED.
There should be no yelling, clapping, etc during debate. It taints the debate emotionally rather than educationally.
1:29:00
Nathan continues to misrepresent his position.
He even read it...
Gen 6
"Noah was perfect IN HIS GENERATIONS..."
And
"Noah was a JUST man..."
Nathan builds straw man arguments and obviously ignores the jesuit influence over casting doubt over the corrupted manuscripts.
He also uses language in line with Calvanism... which isn't doctrinal.
I feel like he’s about to do a mesothelioma commercial
The giant picture used at 2:29:48 and the subsequent points were powerful. The amount of thoughtful preparation by Nathan was impressive.
What do you think any translator does?
@@philipj.sherman2987 Exactly! Modern translators are required to do the same thing.
Funny that the gentleman points out that 'Jehovah' (The Tetragrammaton: YHWH) is preserved 7 times in the KJV, and think it is a great thing.
What he fails to mention is that the Hebrew Text of the OT contains the Tetragrammaton 6826 times.... but yay... the KJV got it right 7 times...
One side brought a pep talk and emotional arguments. The other side was respectful, and well prepared.
This again showed how hollow the position of KJV onlyism truly is.
It's been my argument since I've known the Name of Yahweh. As you rightly point out, the Name above all names has been knowingly substituted by an English title that can never be applied to the Almighty Creator of all things!
Exo 3:15 declares that His Name is a memorial to ALL generations and the KJV is just another translation that has participated in making people "forget" His Name:
"How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? But they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart, who plot to cause My people to FORGET MY NAME by their dreams which they tell, each one to his neighbor, as their fathers have FORGOTTEN MY NAME for LORD*." (Jer 23:27)
*Baal - Lord
You should not add to or take away from God's word or your name will be taken out of the book of life!
It seems like Bro Mitch returns to the podium mad after Bro. Nathan's first seven minutes on the first question. Almost like he unconsciously recognizes that he's got to do something to stop the bloodbath... that he's losing.... that it's going to be a long 3 hours.
Dude was probably so delusional that he thought he won the debate in a slam dunk.
but i must say, the "recovering fundy" guy is really brave, his first time debating officially, smooth in the middle of this strong KJO IFB group... he grew up in the movement, but that may even have made it harder.... on the 1-10 scale, he gets a 10 for courage... :-))
Hahaha! Courage for sounding foolish!
Who burned William Tyndale. His last words were may God open the king of Englands eyes
1:39:00 is he saying that God put His breath upon the 1611 KJB in 1644 after Geneva Bible went out of circulation? If so, why did God wait 33 years to breath on it?
"It's like comparing a BMW to a Rolls Royce...there is no comparison"....um, there actually is a comparison between those two as there were with these two.
One of the rules used by the kjv translators was 'if it sounds right, leave it like that' lol
This is hard to listen to... pretty painful...
I believe that inspiration is retained through faithful preservation and translation. So I do have an inspired translations? Not through re-inspiration but through faithful transmission
In so as a translation faithfully conveys what God inspired originally it too is inspired but not reinspired as truth is preserved not added...
@@Michael-uk3pj absolutely
Nathan did a great job. I only wish he had dress more conservatively, only because it’s one less thing for his opponents to focus on.
1:26:38 - what value for his position of KJO does going into a persecution complex and antivax rage have?
Yeah, I laughed at that. Like where did that come from?
I’m not sure if this has been mentioned yet in the comments, but I always want to hear someone ask in one of these debates, “If the KJV is the only true version of scripture, what do the poor people do in other countries who don’t speak or read English? How can Russians be saved? Or the Chinese? Why do we have the Bible translated into their own languages if only the KJV is acceptable?” This argument is ridiculous.
Read Dr James White’s “The King James Controversy”
There is one only person debating here. The other is delivering an emotional charged, manipulative sermon. I’m wondering if he has even watched or heard a real debate.
Last comment for real....in speaking of the ones by meanings of two form of translating, Bro Cannup states "everybody knows that God is our Saviour, everybody knows that Jesus is our Saviour, because Titus 1 tells you that".
How come his "everybody-knows-that-because-it's-said-over-here" logic doesn't apply to the earlier conversation about the blood of Jesus being left out of a specific verse in other translation? If it's mentioned somewhere else (as Bro Nathan said when that was being debated), then isn't that good enough?
Here's why the KJVO position doesn't work:
1. Pick a Bible version. Go ahead, pick a version, any version.
2. Develop an entire theology based on a reading developed from the English translation you have selected.
3. Argue that the team of translators were inspired by God to make the correct selections from the manuscripts and that they were perfect in their particular English rendering of the text.
4. Argue that the other versions are Satanic wherever they disagree with your theology. Which, obviously, they must be, right? Otherwise they would fall in line with your doctrine.
5. Attribute your text to an incorruptible line of manuscripts. Oversimplify when necessary, and make it overly complicated wherever necessary. Whatever it takes to garner an emotional response in favor of your selected text.
This set of steps can be used to defend whichever Bible version you so choose. The problem is that KJVO have no response to this. For instance, if a German Lutheran were to approach them with a 1545 German Luther Bible and say that every umlaut and every eszet in his book is perfect and their King James comes from a Satanic lineage, neither of them could get anywhere in a debate except arguing from their respective faith-based positions and utilizing continuing appeals to emotion. The King James Onlyist would say, "well my Bible has 400 years of excellence!" And the Lutheran would respond with, "well my Bible is the most widely distributed after the invention of the printing press before the Reformation. Therefore, it is the cause of the Reformation. Therefore it is the perfect word of God." And so on..
This is a profound and accurate point!
Your overlooking facts that make a total difference.
The KJB has numerous qualities that NO other versions can compare.
1. The Antiochian line of ms
2. The fruit of the KJB. No other Bible has been blessed by God and used as much as the KJB. The glorious past of England Queen Victoria "That book (KJB) accounts for the Supremacy of England". In The USA the Lord used it to bring in great revivals , many souls saved and lives changed putting the USA at the top of the game. There is even a documentary on the KJB "The Book that changed the world". Also see "Final Authority" by Bill Grady.
What did the new "bibles' produce? Abortion, homo's, getting God and the Bible out of schools, school shootings, transgender etc....
3. Numerical phenomenon. Bro Mitch touched on it in the debate. Just get a book on Bible numbers. This stuff does not work with the other versions because they change the verse numbers and words.
Luke 4:4
Matt 4:4
Det 8:3
= 1611
Get the book "Concealed From Christians For the Glory of God"
by G Jon Rov
Peter Ruckmans book Bible Numbers
had more point but this will suffice
@@WordAboveAllWhat a stupid argument. Recommending heretic Peter Ruckman you lose all credibility. Of course God has used the KJV a lot longer than other translations. It has been around for 400 years. If it was the NASB, ESV NLT or NIV.instead of the KJV. He would have used them instead . In fact he is using them and blessing them now to bring many to Christ. So much for the myth of KJV only heresy. Your arguments about, transgender, homosexuality, mass shootings etc nothing to do with the modern more accurate translations. But the heart of man which is wicked and deceitful. Also the cults that deny the deity of Christ like the Mormons, Christian Scientist, Jehovah Witnesses before they used their own NWT. All used the KJV to teach their heresies. So much for the "good fruit" of the KJV. Also slavery and racism anti semitism.all these evil things. Justified by self righteous hypocrites using the KJV. So much for the good fruit. Organised crime and massed shootings segregation, were rife long before there was modern translations. When the KJV was the main translation. So much for the good fruit of the KJV. Also the KJV only cult was started by a Seventh Day Adventist cultist. A cult based on the false teachings of Ellen G White. Started by a false prophecy about the second coming of Christ. The KJV was used to bring this false prophecy. Also the KJV translators knew their work was not perfect. They said that even the meanest translation was still the word of God. What makes the KJV only cult think they know better. Just their pride and arrogance and ignorance. As for fruit I have been told by the lunatic fringe of this insane cult. That I am going to hell because I am reading the devil's Bible. My faith in the finished work of Christ who paid the price for my sin is irrelevant to these deceivers, because I am reading the wrong Bible. The hatred of Steven Anderson, the outrageous lies of Gail Riplinger. Her so called acrostic algebra, and Mike Hoggard's numerology the spirit of divination or witchcraft. The insanity of Gene Kim who masquerades as a "real Bible believer". Just as Satan masquerades as an angel of light. Will Kinney who is incapable of rational thought. Calling you a Bible agnostic if you disagree with him. But being the hypocrite he is. Cannot tell you which edition of the KJV which all differ is the perfect translation. What a Bible agnostic. David W Daniels conspiracy theorist, and full double standards like all KJV only cultists. Sam Gipp who does mental gymnastics to try and justify the mistranslation of Easter, in his so called answer book. Who said that a Russian must learn English to have the true word of God. Not any old English but the archaic English of the KJV. This cult has left sanity behind. Jesus said It is by their fruit you will know them. Not what translation of scripture you read. The fruit of the KJV only cult, is absolutely rotten. As has been said Satan does not need atheists he has the KJV only cult spreading his deceptions.
So, you believe God gave his word in the original autographs only and had no role in the preservation of his word?
@@igregmart Fallible men wrote the Bible and all of its "original manuscripts."
When will you a do a debate on the Lord’s NASB? 🤔
When someone says it’s perfect and creates conspiracy theories to support their view. 🤷🏽♂️
😂😂😂
Here from the dividing line!!
Isn’t it aMAZING how authoritative Mitch SOUNDS quoting all that history and scripture!
New sub. I'm here right from The Dividing Line! :>
Welcome!!!
I wonder if anyone from the Puritan board is here (I am not a member on it, but I look through it from time to time).
I'm also here from the AOmin
I am here from AOMIN, but have been following the RFP also.
At 21:02, yes, we believe in the infallibility of the scriptures, but this applies only to the original autographs. Copies and translations represent the originals with varying degrees of accuracy.
At 40:00, he said that he has never found a mistake in the KJV. Hasn't he read the thing? Here are just a few.
At Genesis 36:24, all Hebrew manuscripts and other ancient authorities read "found water," whereas the KJV reads "found mules," following a medieval Jewish commentator. Do you suppose this is a New Age attack on the Word of God for which water is a symbol, replacing it with mules?
In 1 Samuel 2:25, all Hebrew manuscripts read "God," whereas the KJV reads "judge," without capitalization. Do you suppose this is a New Age denial that God will judge sinners?
In Isaiah 19:10, all Hebrew manuscripts read "soul," whereas the KJV reads "fish," following the Roman Catholic Latin Vulgate. Do you suppose this is a New Age attack on the spiritual nature of man, attempting to lower him to a mere animal?
In Hosea 13:9, all Hebrew manuscripts read "he destroyed you," whereas the KJV reads "thou hast destroyed thyself," with no apparent support from any ancient authority. Do you suppose this is a New Age corrupting of the Word of God?
In Malachi 2:12, all Hebrew manuscripts read "aware and awake," whereas the KJV reads "the master and the scholar," following the Roman Catholic Latin Vulgate. Do you suppose this is a New Age attack on spiritual alertness, replacing it with godless scholarship?
Matthew 19:18 - “murder” instead of “kill.” While “murder” is the proper translation at this point, the KJV demonstrates an inconsistency in the way that it translates the word φονευω. This word, used 43 times in the Septuagint including Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17, and 12 times in the New Testament, including Matthew 5:21, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, James 2:11, and Romans 13:9; in each of these cases, the KJV translated the word incorrectly into “kill,” except in Matthew 19:18 where it translated it correctly into “murder.” The Greek word φονευω indeed means to murder, but there is a different word for “kill,” (αποκτεινω), and the KJV translators substituted the word “kill” for “murder” in most occurrences of φονευω, and if this indeed were the proper rendering in Exodus 20:13, “you shall not kill,” then it would be a contradiction in places like Numbers 31:17 that states: “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.”
Revelation 16:5 - the KJV inserts the words “and shalt be,” which does not appear in any Greek manuscripts, neither in Erasmus of 1522, Stephanus of 1555, not in the Coverdale translation of 1538, nor the Geneva Bible of 1560, but instead, in 1598, Theodore Beza made a conjectural emendation here, assuming that this is what the passage meant to say, and so he inserted it into his Greek text. No one before 1598 had ever seen that before.
2 Peter 1:1 - “of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” instead of “Our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” Using this wording, the KJV makes it seem as though our God and our Savior are two different beings. This is also seen in Titus 2:13.
Exodus 22:28 - “the gods” (plural) instead of “God.” While the word θεους can be used for “magistrates,” or “leaders,” given that the text already speaks of leaders also, the passage is speaking against cursing God, and we have an object lesson in Leviticus 24:10-16 which demonstrates the seriousness of this charge.
John 3:36 - “does not believe,” instead of “obey;” here the Greek is explicit and says “he that is not subject to,” and this is in agreement with John 15:14 where Jesus says “you are my friends if you do what I command you,” and it is consistent with the necessity to repent and submit to Jesus as Lord, but the KJV changes this.
Genesis 22:1 - “tempted” instead of “tested.” The Greek word is πειραζω, which means “to test,” “to proof something.” In a proper context, it could mean “tempt,” but this would contradict James 1:13-14, God tempts no one, and the KJV makes God the tempter along with Satan.
Isaiah 45:7 - “evil” instead of “calamity.” The work κακος has the idea of troublesome, injurious, destructive… As with Genesis 22:1, it CAN mean “evil,” but to use it in that sense in this context would make God the author of sin and evil, and He isn’t the author of either.
Isaiah 33:6 - “wisdom and knowledge” instead of “He (Yahweh),” so it turns “wisdom and knowledge” into God, making them the reason for stability, strength, and salvation - I might add that this is a rather gnostic concept.
Acts 12:4 - “Easter” instead of “Passover.” The word used is πασχα, from which we get the paschal moon, which is the first full moon after the spring equinox. The word “Easter” is derived from the Old English word “Eastre” or “Eostre,” which itself developed prior to 899 AD. The name refers to Eostur-monath, a month of the Germanic calendar named after the goddess “Eostre” of Anglo-Saxon paganism. It was the lunar month equivalent to the Julian calendar month of April where feasts were held in honor of the goddess Eostre - a Spring-like fertility goddess, and it has absolutely no business in Christendom.
Matthew 21:43 - “nation” instead of “people.” The word used is εθνος which literally means “people.” To say “nations” implies a replacement theology that contradicts Luke 22:29-30 and Acts 1:6-7.
Exodus 25:31 - “candlestick” instead of “lampstand.” Lampstands burn oil, candles do not, and there is important imagery being missed in the KJV that has theological implications - see parable in Matthew 25.
1 John 5:7 - here the KJV inserts the phrase “bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” While this phrase (known as the Comma Johanneum) shows up in Scrivner’s 1894 Textus Receptus, therefore it shows up in today’s KJV, it is a very late, and massively minority reading; it only appears in 11 Greek manuscripts, none of them earlier than the 10th century, one of them is a known forgery from about 1520, and 4 of them can be completely dismissed because they date from AFTER the printing of Erasmus’s first edition of the Greek New Testament in 1516. Only 9 of the manuscripts date from before 1611 and therefore could have been used by the KJV translators, and 6 of the manuscripts (including the earliest of these manuscripts) have the Comma listed in the margin in another style of handwriting that came later, in some cases as late as the 17th or 18th centuries. Those manuscripts that do include the Comma as an original reading, they contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate.
Ok, wow!
Genuine question that I'm not necessarily expecting anyone to answer, but how many KVO activists have actually read any of John Calvin's works?
Does Mitch make the argument against KJV only at 1:38:33???
I listened to this segment and I'm trying to figure out what in the world you're talking about.
Your not making any sense.
I find it fascinating that he uses atheist/agnostic and Islamic arguments, to defend the KJV.
Exactly. I get the same atheist-type arguments from non-reformed folks as well.
The guy defending the KJV Only position keeps avoiding the issues and raising issues to avoid.
The one question about chapter and verse additions was dodged 3 times and never answered. It was like watching an old wrestling match and the guy waking outside the ring until the ref counted him out so he didn’t have to loose by getting beat up and pinned down.
OK last comment (I wanted to make many more) but @ 2:58:16 Bro Cannup speaking of German Baptist slaughterers vs. martyrs "...if something happens 9x and doesn't 1x, you don't throw out the 9x cause that's stupidity...";
yet, in discussing the differences of translation differences, there's only a 1% difference (1x vs 99x) as Bro Cravatt pointed out, but they use those exceptions to disprove the rule?
Didn’t Canup say earlier exceptions DON’T disprove rules?
Great job Nathan staying on track. Facts ALWAYS trump wishful thinking.
What does where the name Carolina came from have to do with anything?
The Gish gallop is a rhetorical technique in which a debater attempts to overwhelm an opponent by excessive number of arguments, without regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments.
At 1:16:05, I think I'm going to have a permanent scar in my forehead from the facepalm I just gave myself...
LOL I had to go back and listen after reading your comment. Immediately after at 1:16:19 he says that "the number system 1-10 is a miracle of God Almighty"...now I wonder if Mitch is a proponent of the Metric system as inspired and the Imperial system is a perversion? But the Metric system is UN-American so it can't be of God, can it? Oh the dilemma!
It's a debate against the KJV not the Baptist denomination.
It is a very small minority of Baptists that would ever entertain such a ridiculous position anyways. He keeps talking about Baptists around the time of the translation periods but he would almost completely disagree with the soteriology of a 1689 Particular Baptist.
Mitch’s arguments are pure rhetoric and emotional appeals.
Yep
That’s exactly what I was think the whole time. He wasn’t give any authentic information or arguments, just preaching to pump up his crowd that believes the same thing as him with some manipulation tactics thrown in.
Brother Mitch gave Bible. Thats something your not used to getting.
No. He spitting facts... and scripture!
Brother Mitch gave scripture and facts@@user-ph5el5wc9q
3:10:36 when two editions of the KJV differ it is God testing our faith, but when a modern version differs from the KJV it's the work of the devil?
Little old Rockwell NC - amazing. I know Rockwell well. Small world.
The question at 2:06:00 about the "error in Mark 1:2-3, which puts that Quote in Isaiah, when it's really in Malachi (3:1).
Isaiah 40:3. It's not wrong. And this same situation in the KJV calls out Isaiah (although my edition spells this "Esaias") when this same situation is quoted in John 1:23 and Matthew 3:1-3.
Which is an indication that the majority of manuscripts (including the Tischendorf, but not the Textual Receptus), which include "Ἠσαΐᾳ" in the text of Mark are more consistent with the texts of Matthew and John.
There is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
Is the congregation praying at the same time as the moderator there at the beginning?
Probably. I grew up in a church where it is so distracting when others are trying to pray over the person called on to pray.
I appreciate the debate discipline of both sides. Brothers Mitch and Nathan both conducted themselves well. The amens from the congregation are expected in a Missionary Baptist Church. My Papaw was a Missionary Baptist Church preacher in Kentucky, planting little churches in isolated hollows all over the place. There are some differences between them and other IFB breeds, but there are a lot of similarities as well.
The strict KJO position is simply not defensible. I certainly appreciate the place the KJV has had in the English Reformation, but there's no reason to stick to it alone today. We do need reliable translations in every language and I firmly believe that it follows the pattern of Pentecost in the undoing of the Tower of Babel to do so. The autographs are gone so that we don't worship the paper and the ink, and the copies with discernable errors so that we are forced to pay attention to the meaning of Scripture so that we worship the One who is revealed therein. We know what the errors are and the copies are incredibly faithful. We can praise God that we have faithful English translations, as well as many translations in other languages, and that we have an amazing level of certainty as to what the autographs said. This Word was meant to go out, not stay in. It's worth having people in the church who can understand the original languages and help the rest of us to understand our translations better. It does require a level of trust, but we also have people who can hold accountable those who would distort the original languages. This is the place of the Scriptures in our active discussions to understand them better so that we know God to the fullest extent possible.
“We don’t build doctrines upon one verse” debate over haha. You don’t have to look at any other translations the context of KJV most likely doesn’t mean what he says in Psalm 12. Read Matthew Henry or many other old commentaries.
The truth doesn't need to be supported by lies.