The Curious Case of Cos Cob
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- How do these electric trains cross this bridge without being connected to a power supply?
We explore Cos Cob Connecticut and learn about a unique bridge where trains cross without being under power. We also learn some history about the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad and discover why Cos Cob was such an influential location in the railroad's history.
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For those that have never pulled the throttle on any kind of rail equipment, including a streetcar, the ease with which a train will glide on level track will amaze them. We used to glide our streetcar for over a mile on a slight downgrade without power. Trains are not like your car, and steel-on-steel contact is much lower in friction that rubber on road.
You’re so right! I did a lot of research for this episode and even interviewed someone that worked for the New Haven back in the day… no one was able to come up with a single time in which a train didn’t make it over the gap.
@@RailWeekly - Thanks for the call-out! Part of the answer is no doubt, to not stop trains in front of the bridge when it is open. Even on the most restricted indication other than "Absolute Stop," a train is allowed to move forward at up to 15-20 MPH. That is plenty of speed for crossing a 100 foot unpowered bridge span. I'm rather surprised there are so many powered tracks on drawbridges, not only on the Northeast Corridor, but also streetcar lines. For example, I checked the Steel Bridge in Portland, Oregon on Google Streetview, and it definitely has powered track on the drawspan.
@@RailWeeklyWhen a train gets “stuck” on a section of dead catenary or in the case of Cos Cob, a gap in the wire, it’s called getting “Gapped” and it happens at Cos Cob fairly often. Not with MNRR MU’s since they typically are longer than the gap is. But Amtrak regionals have it happen often, typically due to cab signal issues. The train comes to a stop with no wire above. The only solution is to bring another train to pull or push it through or they send a Diesel down from Stamford. Happens on average 6-8 times a year.
Inertia, baby!
As a rail enthusiast I can confirm lmao
This situation occurs frequently in The Netherlands where there are very many drawbridges and there is an open gap in the catenary as you describe; only a few feature wiring across the bridge in places where there is frequent traffic. The Dutch pantographs are designed only to go just so high, and the wire raises at each end of the gap to be just out of reach. While the train driver can coast through at speed, he must cut the traction power to avoid a major arc when the pantograph loses contact with the wire. After the bridge in each direction there are progressive numeric signs, (2, 4, 8, etc.), with an "up" symbol telling the driver when it's OK to resume power based on the number of cars in the EMU. Then there's a final "all clear" sign.
Thanks for the info! I would love to explore some of these European lines more!
@@RailWeekly Cabview Holland Dutch Railways is a good channel for that, and there are others. I follow people all over the world on CZcams - way less expensive than travel...
Yes, my hometown in The Netherlands used to have a large lift bridge like that. There has been one occasion I know of where a train tried to cross at too low a speed and it got stuck on that bridge. Fortunately it is only a couple of kilometres out from the main station which has locomotive maintenance facilities, so they could quickly get a shunter out to "rescue" the train. That bridge no longer exists and has been replaced by a new one, and I believe the maintenance facilities have now been re-purposed as well.
There is a drawbridge in Rotterdam with functional swinging catenary. I had a chance to see the thing operating. It's complicated. It's like an high voltage powerline switch, with soild swinging metal bars in place of the wire at connexion point.
@@RailWeekly Also interesting is when trains change voltage, for example cross border services also work like this. Or changing to 25kV on high speed lines
Great episode! I always assumed that all of the movable bridges had overhead wires as well. I believe segments of the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines did this in parts of Southern Jersey with their commuter service that ran on 3rd rail and trolley wires.
Thank you! And that’s fascinating. I would love to learn more about that.
As a historian and fan of the New Haven and her remaining equipment and infrastructure, I will never NOT be mad they tore down the station
Ha! I seem to hear that a lot. It was quite filthy as I gather.
Imagine you're on an important phone call, and you notice your phone is at 1% so you plug it in, only for the train to roll over this dead spot, and your phone gives out on you and a second later the power's back lol
Haha! What a nightmare!
Sure an invertor that powers pax outlets is battery-backed.
And if you sink to 1% battery while on an important call, blame yourself and nooone else.
@@u2bear377 If your on a metro north M8 (new haven line) the passenger electrical outlets, AC and heat go dead momentarily when the train switches from 3rd rail to overhead wires and across the bridge. If there is no power to the train they cut all non-essential power like AC, heat, power outlets so the battery is used by the crew for operations
If you let your phone go down to 1% battery whilst on an "Important" call, then . . . YOU ARE MY WIFE!!!!!!! lmfao
@@hwhn121yeah it goes fwooooomp… (silence)
*silence until power reconnection after the phase gap*
*thump*
*HVAC on again*
Sometimes it’ll even let you hear the propulsion in the center of the car, as opposed to having to be on the ends to hear it.
Really curious and interesting! I thought that moving bridge with interrupted overhead wires only exist in the Netherlands. They require that the pantograph rises up to a certain restricted level (and not higher) so it is "caught" on the other side. Even international trains such as ICE 3 or Thalys PBKA have provisions for that.
You are seriously underrated, I never knew this bridge existed, very interesting!
Thank you very much!
I live near it so I see it almost every day but I’ve never noticed that the catenary wire stops in the middle
As I can confirm, TSW3 legit breaks the physics of a electric locomotive running with no pantographs
New York to Trenton in a nutshell
@@supermarionathan1426then you got Railworks train simulator through which HudsonLineM7 can drive on New Haven line all the way up to Bridgeport by just holding tightly on accelerator and going, and then it’s used to doing it without
czcams.com/video/eHDxaQ5o6Ys/video.htmlfeature=shared
My video on it where I said DTG pls don’t fix this it’s hot
Interesting in Europe the Panthograph has to go down when there is no power
Not in the Netherlands!
@@IIVQ Dangerous for the Catenary.
Nope, as long asno power is drawn it's ok.
@@IIVQ I meant pantograph going up to full height.
Wow! Absolutely fascinating. I have been over that bridge many times and never noticed!
It’s a little more noticeable on Amtrak Regionals where the cars loose lights and fans for a moment. It’s not always as obvious on Metro North. Thank you for watching!
I don't know about the non-unit locos here but there were electric trains in England (southern region class 71s,with a 3rd rail electrical supply) which had internal flywheels to help bridge the gap in the power rail.
Third rails generally have to have a gap at grade crossing and switches, so this is a much more common when using them.
@@mattwalker5689 yeah,I know!
In Europe (or at least in Sweden) we have a lot of short sections where there's no power in the over head wires called "Skydssektion" (protected section), and they are used to prevent bridging the power from one power station to another and also to prevent the train from receiving 32kv instead of 16kv. While passing them you need to turn of the power and coast past it or else you risk causing arking that might melt the over head wires.
The passenger's doesn't notice anything since the train provides battery power to the outlets and light all throughout the train, but the AC might turn off during those few seconds.
The Northeast Corridor has several of these, they are called "Phase Breaks" here. For 1 example, just east of New Haven used to be the end of the 12.5 KV catenary. When electrification was extended to Boston, Amtrak used the modern 25 KV system, so there's a "break" just east of State Street Station in the "East Cut" as it's known locally.
Nice. In the Netherlands there's also a similar system in some línea, and in multiple bridges (but the Gap is not as big). The big differnce is that they operate under DC power
This video and channel just got recommended to me, I love it! I love the detail which I never knew about, and also your production quality, absolutely top class! I've now Subscribed, Liked, and will binge watch the rest of your videos to keep up!
That’s very kind of you thank you!
That's unusual that the pan goes to full elevation. It's usually lowered before a gap like this. This would seem to be a recipe for bringing the wires down 🤔
I found that a strange and a very risky way of operating, too. Even with neutral sections, there should be trackside balises to open the loco's circuit breaker beforehand to prevent arcing. A fully extended pantograph in fresh air like that would worry me.
They make the wires rise and lower gently. I don’t think there’s many dewirements there.
It’s probably the only place in the US where this is done (insert angry rant about why our railroads won’t electrify, here).
Also, despite being a physical break in the line, it also serves as one of the phase breaks that were installed when the system was changed to 60hz in the early 80s. The older equipment actually didn’t have main breakers, but instead followed the then-standard practice of grounding the pantograph on a transformer fault…
I would have expected pantograph be servo-locked just before the crossing to prevent it from springing up.
@@erkinalpThe wires rise up gently, they don't suddenly end. They rise to the maximum extended height of pan, then end, and at the other end, begin, and gently lower down to normal height. It sounds crazy, but this has been there for decades, and the amount of traffic along that line is very heavy.
Another thing unique to the New Haven line, is it changes from third rail (DC, 650V), to overhead (AC, 13.8 Kv, 60Hz) a few miles south. They do this without stopping. Heading to NY, they lower the pans when they reach the third rail, and raise them as the third rail ends. There's a transition zone for a while, where there's both. The down transition is automatic, the up one requires a button to be pressed.
The old M-2/4/6 cars , they tested the pantographs at New Haven before departure. Quite a scare if you were standing on the platform when they did it!
Wouldn’t see this in the UK! Lowering the pans seems a much more logical solution than letting it rise and rise until they lose contact with the wire. Indeed, many of the trains in the UK will drop their pans automatically if contact is lost through excess height
Thanks for posting. I lived in the area when I was kid, and I would occasionally watch New Haven electric locomotives and MU units cross this bridge. During this time there were also a number of diesel units in operation, including EMD FL9 locomotives. If an electric train stops at the Cos Cob station and heads in the easterly direction, it has about 1,300 feet (396m) to get up to speed before crossing the gap.
Thanks for watching! As far as I know now, the only diesel trains that still cross the bridge are e a few rush hour Metro North trains that go up the Danbury Branch. NO idea why they ever de-electrified that line.
@@RailWeekly
CSX diesel freight locomotives also cross this bridge. In the late 1950s and into the 1960s, the New Haven Railroad began a process of de-electrification and an increased usage of diesel motive power as a cost and time savings measure. FL-9 units with DC pick-up shoes for New York City operation could travel from New York directly to Boston and avoid the customary engine change at New Haven. The New Haven never completed the planned electrification from New Haven to Boston due to financial constraints. The railroad also began decommissioning older electric freight locomotives such as the EF-3 and replacing them with more versatile diesel units such as the GE U25B.
WOW! This is amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. I never knew any of this, as many times I have ridden past this area.
Thank you! And now next time you ride over that bridge, you’ll have to pay attention if the lights or AC go out for a second. Haha
On almost every single railroad crossing on the Chicago, Aurora, and Elgin, there was no power for the electric trains, as they could not put thrid rail across the road. They just coasted across. The only exception was State Road, now Butterfield Road, where trains would have a station prior to the road crossing, so they didn't have enough momentum. As a result, trolley wire was above the road and for a short distance on either side.
As a NYCT subway Train Operator, I call this "Art of the Coast"
There are certain areas of a particular line where coasting is a necessary function of train operation.
I use it to basically maintain speed in certain areas where braking wouldn't be necessary and to keep from over speeding...
There was also a situation where I had left 4th ave/Ninth street just as a power failure occurred but had enough coasting speed to roll the train onto an area where the power was restored, similar to the example given in this video...
It's a rare occurrence, but it does happen...
That’s really neat. Thank you for sharing!
In France we raise down our pantograph for such rare bridges like that, or specific level crossing which can be crossed by overload trucks. Amazing to see this !
As someone who lives in south Norwalk, I take the train over this bridge all the time on Metro-North. You know your when your over it because whenever you cross the bridge, the ac turns off and if your charging your phone it will stop temporarily. Nice video though!
Thank you very much. I actually have a video in the works for later this summer on SONO specifically! Stay tuned.
@@RailWeekly nice I will for sure
Lol very true about the AC and the power outlets if the AC is off already you can still hear the power coming back on.
That’s amazing to see a pantograph still up with no wires and the train is still moving. Now that’s some physics right there.
Nothing really amazing about it. It’s simple physics. Drive your car at say 30 MPH on level ground and then take your foot off the gas. Your engine is now providing no real power to the wheels and yet your car will keep rolling with ease. Passenger trains like this are not much different. I can bring a diesel and 6 coaches up to 110 MPH and throttle off and the speed will drop very gradually.
True. But still it’s fascinating to see a train still moving with no power for few hundred meters.
This is fantastic! Just discovered your channel from my recommend vids, and now I'm subbed!
Awesome, thank you!
I haven't been on the NEC in a while but power cutouts also happen when the catenary changes grids. The power company/territory has a different style of catenary and when the tracks change power grids the catenary rises up and disappears and the approaching grid catenary approaches down.
This assumes you are lucky enough for the power to be working along the whole former New Haven trackage, not always a good assumption.
@@markjames8664 I never came across a power outage on the NEC during my travels, but I did have a few AEM7's breakdown after Y2K
First time Ive hit this channel, and Im already seriously impressed, given my knowledge of the Corridor (and your revealing at least one thing I didn't know). Looking forward to more content here.
Thank you so much, Barrett!
Very informative film!!!!
One piece of information to note: that area IS NOT part of the Northeast Corridor. It is the Metro North New Haven Line, Owned by the State of Connecticut, and operated, powered and dispatched by MNCR; AMTRAK is a tenant railroad beholden to MN (Which is why you sometimes see a ACELA ran behind a New Haven Local so they can run their own expresses around)
Despite the New Haven line being owned and (poorly) dispatched by Metro North, it most certainly is classified as officially being part of the Northeast Corridor. The fact it’s owned by a different railroad doesn’t magically make it not part of the NEC.
@@FFred-us9tw Yeah the NEC is the descriptor for the entire electrified line between DC and Boston. I believe it was even called that back before Amtrak even existed.
Metro-North is only the dispatcher
It's still the NEC
@@blue9multimediagroup Metro North doesn’t just dispatch the New Haven line, they also own it despite it being an integral part of the Northeast Corridor
That section of track is an abomination, especially for the Acela. But the real estate around it is so pricey that a proper high-speed track probably is just a dream.
In Almaar in the Netherlands, there is also a drawbridge and over a distance from about 15 meters, the pantograph is also not in contact with the overhead wire 😊
Sounds like the Netherlands is a great place to see some electric trains in action!
@@RailWeekly Netherlands is really worth a visit 😊
And in North Holland, there are the most interesting trains!
Wow, this is super fascinating! Never even knew about this, despite living in Connecticut and being a huge railfan myself! Great video :)
Glad you enjoyed it! Thank you!
In france, particularly in the city of Sète, there is a drawbridge. it has catenary power that move along the bridge, but drivers are required to lower their pantograph and coast until the bridge has been cleared.
That I-5 Hudson tho. Best looking streamlined steam locomotive there was.
No doubt!
One thing to realize is, on the bridges where there IS catenary wire, it is stand alone, supported by structures on each end of the movable portion (whether turntable, lift, rolling, or bascule). That section is NOT powered, it is dead wire, there just to provide a surface for the pantograph to slide thru. Note that the wire does become "live" when a train passes thru, especially an MU train w/multiple pan's, as power is pushed into the wire by the pan passing thru from the other pan's still under live wire ahead & behind. Some residual power is also added by single loco's passing thru. This is grounded thru the bridge structure down thru the piers, separate from the catenary system itself, which is grounded every couple miles.
Also, that Cos Cob power plant was one of THE most Toxic hazardous waste sites in the entire world when de commissioned. The entire facility was insulated with asbestos. Painted with lead paint. All the oil used for lubrication had VERY high levels of PCB's in it, the same oil used in the electric train transformers. Naturally, "housekeeping" & record keeping had been VERY loose & sloppy, especially during the bankruptcy of Penn Central (in fact many records were intentionally destroyed to minimize lawsuits in the early '70's). It took decades & 10's of millions of $$$ to clean up & demo (a main reason it couldn't be preserved despite being "historic"), & the park sits on a very tight "cap" that is designed to isolate the "glow in the dark" soil remaining beneath the site.
I recently met someone who worked on this drawbridge back when the power plant was still in operation. They said that the air quality was beyond awful, and that the local boat owners would constantly complain about the layer of black coal dust that would need to be cleaned off of their vessels every morning.
Your comment that bridges that do have wire across the section on the moveable portion of the bridge unpowered and dead is totally incorrect. Every moveable bridge on the NEC between Boston and NYC except Cos Cob have wire across the moveable portion. And on All of those bridges with wire across them the wire is 100% live and fully powered. whether a train is passing over it out not. NONE have dead wire. Amtrak and Metro North trains do not have any ability to feed power from one locomotive (or MU car) to another with or without a pantograph. We can be drawing power and accelerating right over all our bridges with no issues at all.
As for the Cos Cob power plant. It was a power plant for the signal power, not the trains. And the Asbestos and lead paint are not the primary contaminates there as both are solids that can be easy remediated through surface soil removal. The main pollutants are PCB's from all the transformers on the site and solvents from maintenance. The lubricants used were simply oils and greases, none of which had PCB's. PCB's are strictly from transformer cooling oils. And unlike asbestos and lead, PCB's and solvents leak far down into the soil beyond the realm of realistic removal. It's far easier to encapsulate the site.
@@FFred-us9tw I worked for MTA Capitol Projects & CTDOT Rail Cap Projects & CTDOT Facilities Design as a fully accredited civil engineer / project manager for 35 years, pretty sure what I posted is correct, altho you def got different stories from Op's, Power, C&S, or Mechanical depending on who you talked to. Especially regarding Grounding & Bonding. & "Plate Orders". I worked mostly out of New Haven on Shops & Yards (also Stamford, E Bridgeport). Mainline stuff outside of New Haven & Mill River interlockings (I worked on that in mid 1990's) were only word of mouth info.
As for some particular points:
- Cos Cob was ORIGINALLY for mainline power, at some point, prolly 1950's?, yes, it was relegated to signal power only. Yes, the PCB oil was in transformers, altho the waste X-former oil had many uses, including herbicides on the tracks. Asbestos in power plants is an especially Vexing haz waste, far more so than "usual" asbestos issues, as it's mainly friable. We demo'd the much smaller New Haven power plant & that took a long time (years) & cost millions. Yes it's not a liquid & thus doesn't soak into the ground, but the vast quantities of friable mat was time consuming & costly.
- From what I gathered, the wires on the movable bridges are all "dead" (do not transmit live power thru them, but are "live" from "stray currents" when a pan passes thru), but if you know better than me, so be it. I was partially wrong on the pan's - pantographs CAN & DO transmit power from one to the other ONLY in TRIPLETS (M4/M6's), which have 2 pans per 3 cars, which have all since been retired. There is a "breaker" between all the pairs (M2/M8's), & each pair has only 1 pan for 2 cars. Altho with the introduction of the "trailer car" M8's ("D"-cars) which have their own "Hotel Power" pan, I'm not really sure what's going on - I've seen D cars permanently inserted internally in a pair (between A & B cars), & also seen D cars as true "trailer cars" at the end of a pair. Good thing we still set the new Component Shop (I was the project manager) in New Haven with 1 triplet spot. I remember the MN President who came up with the "Trailer Car" idea, & the CTDOT Op's brass said "YES", as they wanted odd number of car train sets (or thought that was a good idea). I don't like the idea at all as I'm a shops & yards guy, but, YMMV . . .
Nope
You're wrong.
Don't know who told you that, but it's incorrect.
No dead wires on any of the bridges.
Well, it was Metro-North Power Dep't engineering managers. Brought up when we were trying to design a way of shutting off power at the fueling track in New Haven Yard. The similarity of what we were trying to do was compared to the movable bridges. I tried to type out the story but You Tube deleted my long epistle so maybe some other time. I mean, I could actually name names (most of them retired like me now) but don't wanna do that on a public forum.
From a purely engineering standpoint (I'm a civil, not electrical, but as a project engineer / manager certainly dabbled in issues in every field), I'd think it'd be FAR more difficult to maintain a circuit across the gaps at either ends of the movable section, than to just leave it in a "dead but live" state. Also far safer. Less cabling w/12.5 KV power streaming thru them. I'd be curious to see how the circuit is closed if indeed you're right & worked for MN / a consultant / contractor on catenary jobs & have better knowledge than I do. There are certainly larger movable bridges with longer movable sections very close to stations where live wire would be required (trains can't "coast" thru "dead" section) - the bridge directly east/north of Newark Penn Sta for example (also carries PATH which is 3rd rail). I was gonna say the Harlem Riv MN bridge above 125th st but that's 3rd rail too. Portal Bridge adjacent to the "new" Secaucus station but that was added later & there's some distance between the station & the bridge, & now they just started building the replacement.
I’ve passed this bridge hundreds of times and never knew this!!
In -Soviet- Russia this practice is also used when crossing insulating gaps in the overhead wire.
These are used separate overhead sections either powered with different electrification standards (25 kV AC / 3 kV DC) or connected to different feeders of the same power type.
But pickups must be lowered before crossing such gaps. There are trackside signs "Lower the pickup", "Raise the pickup on a lokomotive" and "Raise the pickup on a trainset" (latter are placed 200 m further down the track).
There is also such a thing as a _neutral section,_ that is an unpowered section ~250 m long separated by insulating gaps on either side. On a gap, one overhead wire raises while another wire parallel to it lowers, so a pickup shoe smoothly transits from one wire to another. A neutral section allows not to lower the pickups, but the current must be cut off to prevent arcing.
That’s fascinating. Do you happen to know the reasoning for having those neutral sections?
@@RailWeekly Neutral sections allow transfering from one powered section to another without the need of lowering pantographs. A neutral section is longer than a typical 10-car trainset so no pantographs of the same trainset are on both powered sections at the same time.
While passing a neutral section, current must be cut off. There are special trackside signs "Switch current off" and "Switch current on".
And it happens that an electric rolling stock is trapped on a neutral sections (e. g. emergency stop). In such a case the section can be powered by a switch (either remotely controlled or manual).
@@RailWeekly Why neutral sections are needed at all.
Neutral sections are constructed on railways electrified with alternating current (AC) and separate 'power districts' connected to different phases of AC.
Shorting two phases would be a big boom. :)
In Russia, pantograph finds YOU!
@@u2bear377 My City [Auckland, in New Zealand] has two such neutral sections on our 25kv AC overheads. Connecting the two power supplies. [Two branches essentially, so they both end up in same location].
The fun part is that one of the neutral sections is on a gradient so on the uphill run things can get a bit... hairy.
Interesting, but you didn't address the obvious question:
How is the now fully extended pantograph reconnected with the lower OLE after crossing the span?
The same way it lost contact. The OLE is higher than the pantograph at the gap, and is sloped back down to normal height.
@@sjokomelk What's OLE?
@@u2bear377 overhead line equipment
Yes if you look VERY closely, you can see that slope in action. The pantograph is slowly lowered back down by the slope in the wires. It’s very easy to miss. Didn’t address that in the video because it’s so hard to see. Was worried people wouldn’t know what I was talking about. Haha.
@@RailWeekly Thank you, that explains it!
Modern Electric Locomotives here in EU can store Power and run for some distance on stored power, like the Siemens Vectrons and others.
The Amtrak ACS-64 is based on the Vectron, but I don’t believe it has that capability. That’s really cool :-)
@@RailWeekly No, they don't store traction power for even that much of a distance. Coasting is very powerful, though.
Wow this must of been filmed from the Cos Cob park! I've crossed this bridge so many times to count yes like they said it crosses by coasting if the train-set is really long like during rush hour it can seem like it's not going to make it but I've never seen anyone stuck.
You are correct. It was a great place to hang out and watch trains.
Used to ride the train over this spot frequently. The Air conditioning fan would go out and the lights would flicker sometimes
2:07 i believe this may have been the reason one of the avelia liberty's pantographs were torn off near cos cob.
Oh wow. I hadn’t heard about that at all! But this would seem like the culprit!
Is the draw bridge still operational or is it just a historic relic now? I would love to see footage/photos of it in operation in any case.
I wonder if the catenary has any automatic power control devices either side of the gap to prevent arcing as the pan leaves/rejoins the wire? - The resulting flash would be quite spectacular if the driver got it wrong and forgot to shut off power before crossing the gap.
I don't think we have anything like this in the UK. There are a few electrified swing bridges still around but everything moves including the OLE so no gaps.
Yes! It is definitely still in operation. As I was researching for this video, I found a few people who had CZcams videos showing the bridge in operation pretty recently. Just do a quick search and I'm sure they'll come up.
To avoid interrupting Head-End Power, trains crossing the Cos Cob bridge use dynamic braking to provide it. They route the power generated by the brakes to the coaches (rather than dumping it into resistors or returning power to the wires). At least that's my understanding; perhaps someone more versed with the equipment could chime in.
In my experience, HEP is indeed interrupted and the coaches run on only battery power for a brief time. Your proposed solution does seem like it could work too though.
@@RailWeekly I think I heard that from an Amtrak engineer who worked the NEC. Not positive though. Edit: I heard this about 15 years ago.
2:12 When you don't want a country wide standard height for overhead wires this is still easily avoided. Just by making the first cable carrier as high as the highest cable anywhere and make the first 100 meter or 300 feet in a slope.
2:25 107 feet of a gap is no issue. At 20 Mph the stopping distance when *braking* is about 200 feet. Free-runing you won't even notice a slow down. Only when there is a need for breaking, there is no issue at all. And even in the unlikely event the train stops on the bridge, a one car passenger train can be pushed forwards (or back) with a few strong passengers (google it for yourself, it happened in Friesland about thirty-odd years ago.
The only thing you might notice is the lights flickering, dimming slightly or go out, depending on the used power-backup.
You can’t have a standard height for the catenary. Hundreds of locations where the trains pass under overhead bridges or go through tunnels where it need to be much lower. In other sections it’s full height to allow auto racks.
As for the train coasting and not even noticing a difference in speed, you definitely do. Because when we open the main circuit breaker on our trains, the locomotive produces HEP through regenerative braking. This puts a load on the motors and slows the train down. Not enough to stop it, but it does drop your speed.
@@FFred-us9tw You are right. I as a passenger never noticed a slow-down. Only the mentioned lights and a slight change in the sound are experienced by me.
I used "you" as "people in general", a form common in Dutch. This linguistic turn brings us to RobWords territory.
At Nereid avenue in the Bronx, NYC, metro north trains convert from third rail to catenary power.
they do this by coming off the third rail and then gliding unpowered through a curve while the pantograph rises and engages the overhead wire.
Absolutely! Between the Pelham and Mount Vernon East stops. Would be cool to try and film the spot where they raise and lower the pantographs.
@@RailWeekly It seems it depends on the train length.. I've seen some do it closer to the station (East Bound) They have a few videos up here showing that.
Wow, that's really challenging, to coast over 107 ft gap. Man, have you ever ride a train?
One day! 🤞🏻🤞🏻
The power plant looked way cooler than the park.
Every time I see the “mianus “ sign on I95, I chuckle a bit
Haha! I actually looked up a few CZcams videos when I was researching this to make sure I was pronouncing "Mianus" correctly. Some would lead me to believe I got it wrong. lol
Funny that this is a completely standard thing here in in the Netherlands, its very common to see, the trains have a stop in the pantograph, so that it does not rise alot in the air
I’ve been hearing this a lot. Guess I need to explore trains in the Netherlands!
@@RailWeekly we have alot of water, thus alot of bridges, luckily its designed properly, and from an train drivers perspective, its simple, all i have to do is turn off traction, thats it
107 feet gap is hardly an emergency situation for goodness sake.If it couldn't coast that far ,then there is something seriously wrong with the locomotive bogies!!!
For sure! It’s definitely not a very dramatic situation… just one that most passengers would never be aware of other than for the brief power interruption to their phones charging. Lol
That was very interesting. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thank you!
In germany our Traindrivers have to pull the pantos down, before they reach a gap. There are blue signs were they have to do it and revert it
Cos cob really needs two tracks with wires to solve that problem
Solve what problem? This configuration has worked just fine for the last hundred plus years.
@@FFred-us9tw the gap for Amtrak units
Mainly the acs 64 and amfleet that would lead to discomfort
Interesting but sensible solution. I have to imagine this requires both specialized design of the equipment and operator technique to avoid damage to the catenary and/or locomotive. Early equipment probably had no problem with simply losing power for a few seconds, everything would go dark (even the headlights probably, as well as any on-board equipment) and they'd get it back on the other side. The antique New Orleans streetcars seemed like that, I recall dead sections (no gap in wire but I'm guessing an insulated gap between blocks) where the operator would cut power, the lights would go out for a couple seconds, then come back on. But modern trains would have a bit more issues with that, so I'm guessing have to be specially designed for this - presumably have batteries and inverters to power all systems except traction, including all the computers, electronics, inverters/transformers, communication and control systems, head-end power, and so on, while disconnected.
All the trains and locomotives that pass over this bridge can do so without any issue or risk of damage. The pantograph will stop raising when it reaches the maximum safe operating height and then lower itself back down on the opposite side of the gap. All systems other than traction operate off of batteries and/or inverter power and some use regeneration power through the traction motors. The only thing the Engineer needs to do before reaching the gap is moving the controller (throttle) to “Off” and open the main circuit breaker if equipped.
@@FFred-us9tw That's what I expected - though I have to imagine the locomotive designers had to take all this into consideration and design these features you describe into the locomotive. I wonder if all electric stock can do that, or only that which is specifically designed to operate on routes with gaps like this?
A lot of modern electric trains have batteries to enable them to operate in a limited fashion without overhead power. It's very valuable for ones that share lines with non-electrified trains, as they need to be able to clear the tracks in case of a power failure or in case they are forced to temporarily shunt onto a non-electrified line.
Apparently some of the new train sets that Amtrak now has on order will have this capability. I guess we will find out soon!
On the older M2, M3, M4's when we crossed this section the train car would go dark due to the batteries no longer holding a charge.
There's a rail swing bridge in Norwich, UK that has a solid overhead rail for the electricity, which swings with the bridge.
That’s pretty neat! I’ve never seen anything like that before!
@@RailWeekly
It even has its own Wiki page !
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trowse_Bridge
Even Netherlands has such a bridge... with no catenary wires.
Magnificent video, i like it 5 stars, keep up the great work, my friend, i subbed your channel, Greetings from Portugal to the USA.
Thank you so much!!
@@RailWeekly no problem, mate.
@@RailWeekly it would be an honour to have you as my new subscriber on CZcams, what do you say.
My pleasure! Subscribed!!
@@RailWeekly thanks, welcome aboard.
Do passengers in the train see the lights go off? Or is the onboard power insulated from this in some way?
Normally at most just the HVAC will briefly shut off. The majority of the lights all run off the 72v DC battery system.
I'll remember that river name because of its beautiful compatibility with seventh planet in Solar System.
Haha! I mean I THINK I’m pronouncing it correctly….
In the UK has some neutral sections which are like this but with wires, they are short sections between 2 power stations supplying electricity to the catenary
I’m sure the corridor has some of these as well. But I suppose you would have to know where they are. They’re not as easy to spot as this. Haha
That is very interesting indeed. Never knew about this along the NEC.
Is it me or is their logo a vector icon of a CC201 (GE U18C)?
Thank you! And I’m not sure I’m familiar with that…
@@RailWeekly No problem! Just search the GE U18C or KAI CC201 on images.
Pantographs should be lowered when there is no wire over. Insulators may brake them. When train is switching power system (dual system loco), there is device installed, that is made to broke pantographs if it is not down. Mistake of powering instalation for 3kVDC by 15kVAC would do far more damage. Also no driving with all pantographs up (there is some exceptions). Always drive with last available pantograph raised. If something bad happen and will broke it, you loss only one, last. First one passed place where problem occured, so just rise it and continue. Driving with all rised gives chance to brake all at once.
This is great! Thank you for sharing!
I've always hated that bridge because there would be a power outage when crossing it. I just hope they install wires on it soon
Their is a “power outage” at every dead section (Phase Break) on the NEC. Makes no difference if the wire is above you or not. There are no plans to ever add wire at Cos Cob. No need for it.
This bridge when it was electrified from 1907-1915 with 11kv 16.7-25hz system there would have been foreign Engineers looking at this system one of those might be a Dutch engineer for Nederlandse Spoorwegen since they have a similar problem with drawbridges with OHLE 1.5kv-3kv DC equipment Bridge might have inspired them to do the same thing in the Netherlands. I wonder if you simply leave the power controller on Notch 8 max speed or put that down to Neutral and then back to Notch 8 or not?
You go to neutral to avoid arcing.
Good to know! I was trying to find someone with an operating manual while researching this video… no luck. I was curious about that as well as a mandatory minimum speed. Thanks for the info!
So that's why the outlets on the m8s stop working for like a second when crossing there
Correct!
This is pretty cool.
Thank you!
So does the power go out for a few seconds in the train cars?
Yes, HVAC does turn off as well as some of the lights. The rest operate on battery power.
Dude the background music is fantastic. What is it?
I use Sound Stripe!
So another remianing question specifically for the Northeast Regional: do the cars still get powered by the ACS-64 on this bridge? If so, how?
No, but they do have battery power. So lights stay on in the cars even though HVAC shuts down, toilets don’t flush and the power outlets don’t work. It’s very brief though. Just a few seconds.
Yes they do, the ACS64 goes into regenerative brake when the main circuit breaker is opened and the power generates goes into the HEP system. So long as everything’s working as intended, the coaches will have continuous 480 V AC power.
This is the most normal pantos used in double decker goods trains in India even some passenger trains
lot of words just to say momentum
I wonder if the lights flicker all creepy like when they cross at night....
Haha! It depends on the equipment you’re riding. They all have battery power. The lights in the Amfleets seem to dim a bit, but on Metro North you barely notice at all. The fans from the HVAC just cut off.
I believe that you are pronouncing the name of the river that the train crosses.
For an interesting story outside the US,, do why the Woodhead catenary in the UK was, in parts, so high.
Would love to learn more about UK rail and do some videos there! Thank you for the tip!
In the Netherlands we have this too but our system is much better and professional. Our system keeps the wires up as high as the rest of the system and has special portals with clips that lock the pantograph's in place and unlocks them on the other side. But there are only a few left and getting replaced by Railed catenary bridges.
That's not true. Our catenary just goes up. All Dutch trains have a bumper in the pantograph though, so it won't go too high.
@@IIVQ you can actually go check the system, non Dutch trains need to put their Panto's down at these types of Bridges.
@@StefanWithTrains3222 because foreign trains don't have the height stop in the pantograph, which all Dutch trains have. There is no special machanism in the overhead portals other than the wires being so high the panto doesn't touch them anymore.
0:02 As a railfan and train enthusiast, I have never seen anything like this happen. I was confused, because, how would an electric train raise its panto without it being attached to a cable? A basic summary of this comment: Um excuse me what the actual fu-
If the USA electrifies a railway, it definitely has to be on a movable bridge 😂
Never this history about the bridge. I rode MetroNorth and Amtrak for years due to work and also because my home is in Fairfield, County.
Interesting
Glad you enjoyed!
0:05 DJ stop:
What the FAAAWWWWW 😂
Hahaha!
Looks like the pylons were in place for the wire but the design dudes just got their "meh they'll just free roll to the other side" moment when they were thinking about the design of a moving catenary...
When I see how high these one-legged pantographs can go - they should be able to run double-stack container trains easily all over the country… just force them to do so !!!
There’s a picture of a CSX double stack under the wires of SEPTA. They clear catenary just fine if it’s high enough.
@@philipnasadowski1060
There are some videos from India 🇮🇳 from the opening of a dedicated freight line with electric double-stuck container trains here on YT…
As long as an electric train has no grade to contend with and enough enertia it will get across a good sized gap within reason.
This railway was electrified in 1907. It's 2023 and the MBTA Commuter Rail still hasn't electrified theirs...🙄
Maybe one day! CalTrain is doing it after all…
When Metro-North went to all the trouble to replace the whole remaining New Haven electrification with their own 12.5 KV @ 60 Hz electrification, why didn't they invest the additional little bit to put catenary on this bridge?
If you’ve ever seen the episode of “Extreme Trains” on the History channel on the Acela, they have some really cool footage of how they deal with the catenary on a rolling lift bridge like this. It’s quite complicated with a lot of moving parts. Perhaps they didn’t deem it necessary with the added construction and maintenance costs?
@@RailWeekly Also wonder if maybe they thought the bridge was going to be replaced, and then it never was?
Why bother? There is no need for it. This bridges catenary design has worked perfectly fine for 100 years.
@@FFred-us9tw As someone posted in another comment thread about either this bridge or a similar one, trains do get stuck in the gap sometimes.
@@Lucius_Chiaraviglio when trains do get stuck in the gap it’s no different than when trains get stuck in a Dead Section which although having continuous wire above, the wire is electrically dead. This is done to separate two separate sources of electricity. So wire above or not, trains can still get stuck.
What happens if they get an insanely low slow order on the bridge?
They would just take the particular track out of service. You can coast over that bridge at 10 miles an hour with no issues. They would never put any restrictions slower on a track there.
What's with the electric New Haven loco seen at 3:05 that has steam coming out on places I''d expect from a steam loco?
Passenger coaches used to be heated by steam. So both Electric and Diesel Electric locomotives used to have Steam Generators on them that would take water from a tank and convert it to steam and send it back through the train via a hose between cars to provide this heat.
@@FFred-us9tw thx for the info!
Absolutely correct! And the steam would even be used for other things like heating water in the diner and in faucets, and even running steam-ejector air conditioning units in the summer.
@@RailWeekly Thx! The USA has way more a history of using steam (for heating, cooling, pressure etc) in industrial and domestic application, than Europe, where we tended to use water pressure, hot water and electricity (more potent because 220V) more.
0:35 Well, I'm going to have to revisit all my prejudices about America now. That looks like a modern, stylish, European electric train. In America.
Acela, based on the TGV and introduced about 2001. Now planned to be replaced by a new generation once they're finally satisfied that it's had enough testing 🙄
@@AndreiTupolev*1999
Those are Siemens units. They are rated 6400 Kw. I saw one today by Harrisburg Airport, pushing 6 cars. It had just left Middletown, and was doing somewhere between 60 to 80 mph. That run between Middletown and Harrisburg city is 10 minutes - actually a lot faster than driving!
Is that a neutral section? It's unusual
A neutral section would still have wires... but they would be insulated and non-powered. This is just a gap.
I always wonder do drawbridges have to get scheduled with the train? That is how do they decide who gets to wait. And of course I wonder if moving bridges can be high speed rated, that is can the Acela keep the hammer down.
That is a great question. I have ridden the northeast corridor a lot and I have never been on a train that has been stopped for a bridge (unless it got stuck in the up position and it had to be repaired). I suppose that suggests the bridge operates around the rail schedule? Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can weigh in.
Marine traffic has the right of way within reason. Typically during boating season on busy rivers the bridges remain open and only close when a train needs to pass. But it’s not unusual for us (trains) to wait for marine traffic when it’s been backed up for awhile.
As for high speed? They could be, but of all the moveable bridges on the NEC none are even in the high speed sections anyhow. So it’s a non issue.
Thank you!
I got stuck on the bridge they had an issue trying to get it to lock back into place.. it was like a 10 min wait.. The good thing about it is the bridge opening aren't as much as they used to be.
I don't think these are as uncommon as u think like gaps in wires sure and I've seen the Netherlands gang in here to which I say love u guys but here in the uk something like that would just be treated like a neutral zone where there's a built in break section/gap in the powersupply to ensure there's no interference between 2 completely different power sources as no 2 sources have exact same voltage, current or freq and if allowed to meet could create a potentially dangerous situation
She is rolling without power. It isn’t going to stop for 200 feet of no power.
so does this mean the lights will go off over this bridge?
The kindof dim because they still operate on batteries. But the HVAC and the wall outlets do not work.
What's the music you used at the start of the vid
I use Soundstripe.com for all my background music.
Whoever made this video obviously never heard of neutral sections. Which is a bit of a bummer for a channel about trains.
Of course I have. This isn't a neutral section though since there are no wires are all. Too much to cover in 4 min. haha Maybe a video on that in the future. Thank you for watching!! :)
What river bridge again?
Mianus River. Cos Cob bridge.
why does the bridge have no wires.
Just decided to build it easier and cheaper and have less maintenance. Trains roll through there every day with no problem
BTW was the coal plant demolished before or after 9/11
It is so odd that they don't lower the pantograph. Seems like an accident waiting to happen
There is no risk. Pantographs are designed to adjust height while in motion. This bridge has had this gap for 100 years. No issues at all. So hardly an accident waiting to happen.
@@FFred-us9tw I am well aware that the pantographs are designed to do that but it seems odd to put wear and tear on them by just letting them fly up and then be pulled back down by the catenary. You could just lower them
@@benedekhalda-kiss9737 there’s no wear and tear involved, because they’re not “flying up“. They are raised pneumatically and it’s not happening fast since the wire gradually raises to the max height of the pantographs reach. And they are not being “pulled down“. They are pushed down as they reach the other side and the same way as they’d re raised. Gradually.
The height of the catenary is not all the same. If varies greatly depending on overhead bridges and other structures. The upward pressure is supplied by pneumatics. There is no wear by it moving up or down.
@@FFred-us9tw Thanks for the thorough answer. As a European it still seems odd to not lower them but now I understand.
@@benedekhalda-kiss9737 glad to help. When I first started running these electrics, I wondered the same thing as you. But I think they realized that if they needed to be lowered and the engineer forgot to lower it or an automatic system that was supposed to do it failed. You would definitely have damage. So the way this is set up is kind of failsafe.
Before watching this I assume they coast
Edit: I was correct
Haha! Nailed it!
Можно просто опускать токоприемники в этом месте и после проезда моста, поднимать токоприемники обратно и не делать мозги. Независимо от модели подвижного состава.
You risk losing air pressure as the pantographs are pneumatic
@@blue9multimediagroup
Я так пишу, исходя из того, как действуют на железных дорогах России. Например, на линиях с переменным током при прохождении "нейтральных вставок" (участка контактной сети, где нет напряжения), поезда проходят это место либо с отключением тока на самом подвижном составе, либо с опусканием токоприемников во время движения.
czcams.com/video/zNRoZNGDQM4/video.html
Bluetooth power
inertia.
Haha! #WordOfTheDay
@@RailWeekly the tendency of moving masses to keep moving 🤷🏻♂️