WORLD RUGBY SAY RWC FINAL MISTAKE WAS MADE | Ref & TMO were Wrong???
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- čas přidán 13. 11. 2023
- Rugby doesn't help itself sometimes. Especially when nameless people apparently say unofficial things to unknown people in private about the biggest public spectacle in our sport. Let's talk about the disallowed try in the final, what is being said and what it means.
- Sport
As a All Blacks supporter, too little too late lol. There could've been calls that went Springboks way too & again we missed a Conversion & Penalty to win so either way, all these post admissions on World Rugby's part is not going to change the outcome, Congratulations to the 4 Time RWC Winning Springboks Team, onto the next o7!
Fair play for being impartial
Sure you're a Kiwi 😅 , Frikkie.
And that is why we love you, mate. Well said!
Give this man a beer, he deserves it! 🍻
Also if south africa had gone for the corner like at twickenham things couldve been far worse for us.
As a kiwi my heart doesn't ache for that disallowed try, instead it aches for that conversion and that penalty kick we were unable to nail that night. Either way it's time we move on.
I'd already moved on....now I am back to square one again! ;-)
That lost the AB the game.
If either of those kicks had gone over, the Boks would have gone on the offensive to score points instead of protecting their lead. It’s simplistic and naive to ever say a team lost due to a missed kick (the only exception being if it’s the last kick of the match, ie after the hooter sounds, and the points difference before the kick is 3 or less)
@@timbaker4253 You would never know that lol. Springboks had a one player advantage for most of the game and never pressed that advantage home. Regardless of how it happened, numerically it was 14 All Blacks against 15 Springboks for most of the game. Technically the Springboks should have been able to score a try with the one man advantage. Good game played by both teams. Looking forward to the next game.
@@timbaker4253 Definitely. Boks defended their lead, a very dangerous thing to do against NZ but they held on, just....
can you imagine the outrage if the TMO called the knock-on, and Wayne Barnes said, no mate, thats 4 phases, try stands. Fans would be slamming the rules for allowing a clear and obvious knock-on
EXACTLY!
that wouldnt of happened because in actuality they returned for the infringement prior to the knock on
@@MA-ik7ys they only found the infringement at the lineout because Barnes smtold the TMO to review the entire set piece as a whole rather than simply the knock on that resulted from it
@@ChrisBrown-or8ky If the tmo wasnt watching the lineout what is the tmo doing? If the tmo saw the lineout and only bought up the knockon after 5 phases, what is he doing? seems like the tmo was paid off.
after Wayne had clearly called no knock on twice in those 4 phases,
so we acknowledge the mistake of going too far back in the review, but we dont acknowledge the mistake of missing the knock on in the first place? thats a bit weird.
Weird paradox isn't it
good point.
Why don’t they just play the game then declare the official result after 7 days of off field scrutiny
Perfect point
probably because it's all hearsay. I'll wait for an official statement from World Rugby, rather than trust a tabloid
Almost at 60k Tim. Incredible growth with your channel. Well done ☘️🇮🇪
As a safa I have nothing but respect for the AB team and fans , however I must ask How have we got to this point , its putting a stain on this beautiful game. Death threats, people having closed doors meetings, ffs
good discussion point
Rugby fans aren't becoming like football fans, but world Rugby has an huge responsibility in this actual bad trend. The lack of transparency of the TMO/bunker process gives the impression of a sort of lottery which is creating these reactions.
That said, I don't think Safa fans are in a good position to lecture the World regarding Barnes death threats 2 years ago, Rassie Erasmus past behavior and boks fans "conspiracy" attitude during this World Cup.
I watched a documentary on the history of the AB/SA rivalry last night, showing the Springbok "haka" (sorry, I couldn't quite get the Zulu word). We have fallen so far.
I think the Boks kinda brought this on themselves by NOT putting the game to bed when they were 12 - 3 up and a man up after the Cane red card.
They seemed to go to sleep after that with a "we got this in the bag" syndrome.
Kolisi butchering a clear overlap try by not passing at that point would have put them 19 - 3 up, so yeah.
The ABs are too good a team to go to sleep on.
@@scroopynooperz9051 what point are you trying to make here? Blame for not winning by 30 points. You speaking like someone who’s never been put in a high pressure scenario in their life.
If anything why didn’t the tmo look at the forward pass leading to barret try????
I am n Bok supporter and they did look at it and it was a fair try. The ball went backwards out of the hand and never passed the passing player. Its totally legit. The ball is allowed to move forward with momentum as long as it goes backwards relative to the player who passed it.
@@Jacolath How can a ball go backard from a player but travel forward in momentum? Thats not how physics works bru. If a ball is going forward it is forward, there is no other interpretation. The player passed the ball before the 5 meter line and yet the ball lands on the 5 meter before bouncing forward. How is that not a forward pass? or rather lost forward in the tackle.
@@tex4523ball left hand backwards…hit ground..bounced forward
@@tex4523 you are obviously not that into rugby if you dont know this. here is a 12 year old video explaining the "physics" (there are many like those even older ones). That's why a forward pass is explicitly judged in the rules by how it leaves hands of the guy passing it and where it is in relation to him. Player momentum is allowed to carry it forward as long as its backwards from him. According to your rational most passes would be forward then. enjoy
czcams.com/video/box08lq9ylg/video.html
As a kiwi, I wish the NZ media would give it a rest, it was an amazingly tense game to watch, we missed chances and points when it was available to us. SA won and rightly so, they were the better team on the day. Congratulations 🇿🇦🏆👏🏻
where they the better team, or were they better because of the man advantage?
@@franzbrunner499 SA were better discipline wise and also took their chances better (although they also missed a few opportunities). So all in all, SA were better when it really counted. Can't blame SA for NZ's ill-discipline.
@@franzbrunner499ah shut up would you. Should have been 2 red cards as we played an entire game with a hooker isn't a hooker due to the intentional injury frizell put on mbonambi.
They had two yellows so not much better?
They weren't the better team and a lot more opportunities either went against or were missed for the All Blacks then the Springboks. The officiating was atrocious and the game should be replayed. How can you go back for a knock on resulting in a disallowed try but not review a game changing penalty (Ardie legally over the ruck). The TMO shouldn't pick and choose when they intervene. Consistency is all anybody is asking for. Either go back and pull up everything or completely stay out of the game unless the referee asks for your intervention. Simple
Look at the scoreboard. NZ 11 - SA 12. Who won? Well done SA. I am a NZer. Great video Tim, agree wholeheartedly with you.
In real time you could see the knock on, you knew it would be called back, despite the beauty of Ritchie's line and pass. Not the reason we lost, Awesome Boks Defensive effort, All Blacks will have PSDT for some time. Nail the kicks and we win. Onwards to 2027. Let's see what Razor can do. Great content Tim
That's the attitude of kiwis generally. I feel sorry that this could reflect, in some people's eyes, on All Black fans, who are proper rugby folk!
Love the great sportsmanship, from RSA 🇿🇦
Look hopefully this does highlight the issues with tmo intervention and we can have less of it going forward.
I love the Freudian Slip, PSDT and not PTSD - well done with the subversive there ;)
Once again perfect summary. They should have caught that knock-on a little faster and there would be no controversy. Wayne Barnes definitely had a good game.
At the time Barnes called that it was no knock-on, and he let play continue. In fact he said this clearly twice, firstly just after the incident when the SA players were yelling at him it was a knock-on, secondly in the ruck that formed a phase or two after. At this point he surely has made an on-field decision that should stick? This type of call happens countless times in games, such as a halfback or no.8 fumble at the base of the scrum, but this on-field call is almost never recalled by the TMO. So why in this particular case, where the referee had effectively called "play on" many phases earlier was it re-called? Yes, it led to an eventual try, but how far back is reasonable to assume the ref's calls mean nothing?
@@n__mLet me guess. You're an AB supprter 😂
@@n__mexactly.
My son and I ran into Wayne Barnes at the train station in Nantes the day after Ireland v Tonga. He was absolutely lovely to chat with and allowed my son and I to take a picture with him. Well done on an amazing career Mr. Barnes.
Wayne Barnes looks like he likes dressing in women's clothing in his spare time. Does he wear eye liner ?
Was waiting for the Eggchasers vid! As usual, reasoned and level-headed take. Keep it up, Tim!
Great commentary sir. As a New Zealander I think it's important we(NZ) just accept what's happened and move on. Wayne Barnes is the world's best referee. He isn't to us Kiwi's because we are bad losers. Get over it I say!
I was at both AB losses in Dublin and all the Kiwis I saw were very gracious in defeat. Strarting with Kieran Reid’s post game interview in 2018, true class👍
Yup its over guys finished be happy for SA, still have our forks out for Canes head thou 😂
Barnes hates us as well. There was good money flying as soon as we heard he was reffing the final
No blame on Barnes but World Rugby has a lot to answer for and not only from the final.
Well said mate
Reading my local Kiwi paper, they agree with many of your sentiments Tim. As an ABs fan, I was gutted by the loss, but nothing is served by endless what-ifs. Refs are fallible, some decisions go your way, and some don't. Did Wayne Barnes apologise to Ardie Savea for awarding a penalty against the ABs or did he just apologise because he did not see the big-screen replay? We don't know, but Wayne was there on the field, he made the call that Ardie had not come off enough before the second tackle. End of the matter.
New Zealand squandered opportunities that could have won the game, it was a close-run thing. If you want to be absolutely sure you are the winner, open a 10 point lead. The Springboks won the game, it is as simple as that.
World Rugby have done themselves no favours in the last couple years with their rules and regulations. There is growing sentiment that it needs a shake up and former respectable players need to wield more influence in the game…..
Tackles to the head is a no no, time to move on.
@@aughalough1 if you think tackles to the head are the only changes made to the game of rugby in the last 2 years then you’re ill informed…. You need to look more broadly!
Too many former players complain of headaches and such like and demand more stringent rules in the current format. I get what they intend to do but it is making the game of rugby into a farce. Too many nit picky rules
Hang on ,hold your horses here.From a SA fan ,The Barrat try was not a forward pass but knocked on in tackle by Mark Telea before barrat picked up and scored.There is a close up of that on youtube.I urge you to have a look.Egg Chaser can we have a video on that ,just to be fare.So that try should not have stood.You can have Aron's try with compliments.Just remember that the Springboks game was also interupted by 18min from yellow cards.Fareplay to Allblacks ,who put up a good fight but without being biased Springboks looked the better team on the night.What is dissapointing to me is ,if the Allblacks won the Cup then there would have been no blowback from South-Africa .Allot of Countries are allways writing off the Springboks and they should do that at there own peril.Springboks love to be called underdogs.The rest of the world is yet to accomplish what the Springboks have done and I think it is time to show a bit of Respect dont you think.
As an AB supporter l'm on board with much of your comment until you got to the 'no blow back part'.
Clearly (irrespective of what happens on the field) this isn't a true reflection of what happens post game on CZcams.
There is always going to be blowback.
I can accept that historically, the scoreline is always going to be what it is.
At the beginning when Tim introduces as part of his narrative 'saltiness' it's too broad of a generalisation.
Alluding to some unknown, faceless type of individual supports this over generalisation.
While l have respect for his opinion ,one has got to be able in turn to respect those of others in the broader sense and let trash talkers sit around wastting their own time slinging mud just to get attention.
Perhaps you can clarify what you meant in your comment about blowback.
Just to be clear, were you referring to World Ruby's decision to call this like they have knowing that they aren't willing to go out on a limb and officially censure any of it's officials?
💯… both arms wrapped in the tackle. Straight up knock on. No forward pass “momentum” discussion necessary.
@@teevis3620WR haven't called anything. This was a tabloid 'report' written about an anonymous WR rep speaking to an anonymous NZ person. Please man. This is a complete fabrication, from a salty NZ reporter who can't accept an SA win
Blow back as In the disgust shown by a certain NZ Ex coach that washed his mouth out and blaimed officials for not reffing to his liking.Look I understand ,he must be upset but the boks also got cards.I am sure the Springboks would have prefered having 15 for 80 aswell.
And same for AB.Now with that disgust shown there and the level of scrutiny you will not see from a Ex Springbok coach.Rugby needs to be fixed in general.The goal line drop out for a held up is crap.You have a team going forward and they are being punished for trying to score a try.Bring back the 5 meter scrum.Also Tmo's need to butt out and let the Ref get on with it.The Allblacks put up a hell of a fight but Springboks made 209 tackles and had allot of turnovers.Just a pitty the day was spoiled with all the cards.AB had over 60% possesion in last 10min and could not convert.I am sure Allblacks will be back and rebuilt with the new Coach.All the Best .Springboks ❤🏆
@@user-fz7yp3xk6wTypical deluded Saffa. Ya won because of a red card that 5 years ago would have been. You are definitely not the best team and the world knows it. Tin arsing is an art and the Springboks are the masters.
Hey Tim. On point as usual. It feels like the guidance for the TMOs input changed throughout the tournament. Opening game..clear forward pass for NZ try and no TMO interjection. Final a knock on flagged by TMO. Could we simplify? TMO can only interject on dangerous play or head contact? After that it's up to ref and linesman. If they dont see it it in effect doesn't happen? If players complain to the ref he has a simple check with his linesmen and if nothing then move on. Keep doing what you are doing. Btw good rugby people should never ever criticise match officials. If we could all start all our thought process with a human viewpoint that no one is perfect, even ourselves then we will be less harsh on blaming others
You are incredibly fair in your reviews. Had the try been allowed, who knows what the result could have been (SA by 28 or NZ by 50, nobody knows as the dynamics would have changed).
Definitely New Zealand by 50. The Springboks dodged a bullet with that pathetic red card.
No one is pointing out the obvious fact that it was either the Smith try or the Barrett try, if the Smith try was awarded then the attacking position would have been over and a new phase started with a kick off.
There is no way you can deal with it in isolation!
PS - just got to the single point of failure - well done Tim, exactly right - leaving post to emphasize it yet again!
The argument is if it was the interference that caused the knock on for which the subsequent try was disallowed after being awarded then according to the rules of rugby that try should have been upgraded to a penalty try and Eben Etzebeth yellow carded. Had it been a poor decision in the run of play so be it, that happens, but this actual TMO ruling was not correct which is such a shame for rugby.
@diyguru9677 huh? Come again. Penalty try for interference in that position? What are you smoking mate? If the ref had seen it he would at best awarded a penalty to the ABs
@@nicobr00 Was a try scored?
Yes.
Was the try overturned due to a knock on in the previous line out?
Yes.
Were the All Blacks then awarded a penalty for the offside play by SA causing the knock on?
Yes.
If all of this is correct then please explain to me how that's not a penalty try according to the rules of rugby.
@@diyguru9677 It does not work like that buddy. You are making yourself look silly. Have you ever seen a penalty try awarded like that? If the ref had picked it up in play it would just be a penalty. There is no way the ref would have even considered that the interference from Eben stopped the AB's from scoring a definite try.
@@nicobr00 I have never seen a try awarded and then reversed by a TMO for the opposition illegally interfering with the ball from phases back either. I agree a penalty try would be absurd but disallowing the AB try for a SA infringement was even crazier.
Great analysis, and comment on Wayne Barnes, he did a good job.
The story is BS.
However, I think Captain Cane's tackle was cheap shot, and a red card all day long, just like Scott Barretts liberty on Marx at Twickenham. The ABs didn't learn from Twickenham, so lost both games. TMOs are there for exactly that reason, because Wayne Barnes missed the cheap shot.
'You do the crime, you do the time'
End of story.
So what say you on the Mbonambi/ Frizzell hit job ? I believe it was exactly that. How he ends up in that position can only be deliberate.
@@jksinorbitTotally agree.
Fully agree, explained so well that everyone can understand. Well done Tim
But there was a video online of the aerial view of the Jordie Barrett try that clearly showed it was a forward pass...
Yip!! My view as well
Clear forward pass, can't argue with the facts
You're missing the point mate
Deserving of your 60k subscribers Tim, keep up the good work. I was flabbergasted to see Joe Molloy (Leinster) penalised for "pushing a player unnecessarily" this weekend. In truth the player was walking into Joe's running line to block a kick from the opposite No.9, and he gave the Dragons player a tap on the back of the neck to move him out of the way. It was always thus in rugby, now the game is too regulated.
A phase in rugby resets when one or more players from both teams joins the breakdowns. If you look at that period of play, there were 2 (phases) where there were no springboks at the ( breakdowns) just allblack recycled ball, so it was anyway just 2 phases, not 4.
Interesting point. I myself have not had the heart to watch it again, but if you're right it would definitely help settle the matter (which is actually already settled)
@@UglyKidJoe71 I just watched it again. He is wrong. You might be able to argue the first ruck was purely a double tackle, but it's PSDT coming in for a quick jackle in reality. The next three are 100% rucks where SA loses their feet.
dont add facts to this we want outrage.
We just want feel sorry for ourselves
@@rjbutt3rz as I have just replied to you in another thread, there was not a single ruck from the time the ball left the lineout to the time it was dotted down. Not one.
Great level-headed thinking as always Tim. Your channel is huge now. Well done.
Congratulations, you must have just broken 60k suscribers 🎉Have followed you from the start of the World Cup and your coverage was the greatest! Yours is the first CZcams I watch if there is a new one there!
Thanks
!!SA fan only managed u15a at school and then Crusaders U 20 in 1965 !
As a Springbok supporter I need to reiterate Tim's observation : what is most impressive about the greatest rugby nation in history, is their fans' and players' humility in defeat. The same however can not be said of their pundits and journalists. Thank you for that cloak and dagger 'leaked' story NZ journalist, you just fired us up for the next game.
The fact of the matter is that if the Aaron Smith try stood, then the try not long after by Beauden Barret would probably not have been scored since they scored that from the same attacking position.
Excellent commentary BTW. One always has to look at the complete picture, not the odd few pixels which has an odd colour.
Exactly you can have one or the other, not both. Perhaps the conversion of the Smith try might have failed, we will never know. Yesterday's news.
Even if more phases were played between the knock on and the disallowed try.
What was not picked up was the forward pass leading up to the allowed try.
The ball clearly travelled forward from the hands of player tackled.
Yeah I said the same thing. Guess no one talks about it because winners don't need to whine about incorrectly allowed tries...
It travelled backwards and bounced foward
@@harrymac5229it did no such thing. The rules are pretty simple. The ball went forward.
@@harrymac5229 imagination is strong with you
@@harrymac5229
The only way a ball can travel forward is off the boot.
As hands were the last thing to touch the ball, the forward movement made it a forward pass.
Very rational Tim-I think the real problem is the supplanting of the referee by the TMO-The TMO should only be involved in helping referee decide whether a try is the correct decision-or if an action deserving of a red card is missed
You've absolutely hit the nail on the head there regarding once Foley brought it up. Barnes had to act on it. And Barnes got stuck between a rock and a hard place regarding he got the Ardie penalty wrong but didn't want to referee history which I can appreciate. But then the TMO forces him to referee history by calling that knock on out. What can he do about it really? Also I believe I heard players on the field called knock on at the time and Barnes call play on. If NZers gave Barnes hassles it is shameful and they need to pull their heads in because as many have said they still had chances to win.
I'm with you Tim, they need to simplify and strip the laws down. Rugby can't seem to get out of its own way
Well said, Tim.
It's incredibly sad that, after both RWC successes, so many in the rugby world have been so churlishly unsporting and done so much to demean, diminish and elegitimise the Springboks' victories. And in both cases World Rugby has been complicit by allowing it's members to behave in a manner so unbecoming to the spirit of rugby.
The Springboks got lucky. Except this and move on.
"Except this"? 🤦♂🤣🤣🤣
Exception made. 😉
The Springboks won an historic Fourth Rugby World Cup Trophy.
*Accept* _that_ and move on! 😂🤣😁😉
@@JaemanEdwards
@@budyza180 Already have. All Kiwis have. We're pretty content with what our boys delivered at the RWC. And the world still understands who the best team on the planet is. It's the team who scored 49 tries to the Springboks pitiful 27 tries. It's the team who scored 100 points more than second most France. It's the team that scored a try against the Springboks while being down to 14 players for 50 minutes and simultaneously holding the Springboks scoreless.
You Saffas will take any old shit served up to you on a plate. Kiwis standards are so much higher. We would not be happy for our team to be barely winning games scoring fk all tries. Rassie needs to learn what a rugby pass looks. And he needs to teach his team where the tryline is situated. You won because of girly interpretation of the laws. Five years ago that wasn't a red.
The All Blacks play the game as it was intended. Run, pass, and score tries. Not maul, kick, and await cards or penalties.
The Springboks winning in a tin arse fashion is bad for South Africa because now all you deluded fools think that fkn ugly rugby is winning rugby. I look forward to the All Blacks smashing the Springboks for years to come because we got the formula. You're just lucky some bobble heads at the NZRFU thought Fozzie wasn't an incompetent wreck. Under Razor we will lift rugby to unprecedented heights.
Just wait and see Saffa. It's gonna be so enjoyable.
@@JaemanEdwards😂😂😂
You are obviously very bad loser hahaha
Way too much balance and maturity on this channel 😆! Thank you Tim, I love your channel!
Hi Tim, love your channel. My favorite sport commentator.. You frame and balance perspectives so well, it adds so much value. Stay lekker, From SA.
You are spot on Tim.
Wayne Barnes the best ref.
When a card was awarded and upgraded, he should have a day in that as well.
Thank you for your analysis and the way you express it.
Wayne Barnes is totally overated
Yeah! NZ should only ever be ref'd by Kiwi officials, like the AB's, their the best, and like the AB's deserve special treatment!
Wayne Barnes made to many mistakes in final...totally overated
To our NZ brothers...respect....can't wait to see the ABs against our boys again💚💛🇿🇦
Yea you were lucky boys I know who the real winners were
@@mercedessl8718South Africa
@@mercedessl8718 Yes! The Bokke!! Regardless of Beauden's forward pass try, Richie's missed conversion or Jordie's missed penalty!😂🤣
@@mercedessl8718poor All Blacks fell so sorry for you 😢😢😢😢 NOT 😂😂😂😂😂
@@mercedessl8718 care to inform the rest of us who the real winners are? Maybe consider Bryce Lawrence history when you give your answer.
I'm a Kiwi and I totally agree with your analysis. Even though we lost, I'm so very proud of our All Blacks . They played their hearts out. Congratulations to a fantastic Springbok team, deserving winners. Thoroughly enjoy your channel Tim, sending love and best wishes from New Zealand ❤
This channel is such a great place to hear some measured and honestly impartial opinions. And after reading some comments I'm so glad Tim's great view and contour is reflected by those that follow him. It's honestly so great to see an online community that isn't full of shitty and petty views and commentary and makes me love rugby all the more. Congrats to Tim for his leadership in / this regard and the fine examples of human beings that seem to populate his comment section.
Surely that is justice for the try awarded to new Zealand against Ireland in the quarter final,at the later stages,when the referee and officials totally missed that the pass was forward by a meter and a half. Did Ireland complain. No took it on the chin. Who are the bad sports here. Any wonder Referee Barns retired.
The reward will be AI refereeing. That will shut up the whinging
Same ref and TMO too by the way - Wayne Barnes and Tom Foley.
The thing is. They say that was a mistake. But them not seeing the knock in the first place was also a mistake. I saw it live as it happened and immediately called it. Everybody did. The ref was unsighted. So it was a mistake on a mistake. Dont really know what the argument is. If they allowed the try there would have been another mistake. A bigger one. I wouldn't want to win like that. Its a silly statement.
Tim, just like to say how much I appreciated your cover of the recent world cup. Unbiased, objective and honest. It added a new dimension to watching what has to be one of the greatest sporting spectacles ever.
Then, with regard to this latest nonsense, I don't think people realise that even if those points had been allowed, it doesn't mean that the game was won - at that stage. Let's not kid ourselves, it would have changed the dynamics immediately - especially for the Boks, desperate to hold on to the cup. One Swallow does not a summer make!!
I'm a Kiwi and I totally agree with you. Keep up the commentary!
Fully agree with all you say - I always enjoy your analyses and reactions ☘☘
As per usual Tim, you're the voice of reason - keep up the great work mate
Well said Tim! Another storm in an old tea cup. Why can't we just except the results, move on and look forward to the awesome Summer / Winter tours! It's time these unofficial leaks are treated as BS by the media; I'm sure the fans disregard most of what comes out of world rugby these days.
Doesn’t matter if they had ten tries disallowed. You play the ref as he plays it on the day. And they did … and they were in position to win … but they forgot to read “Kicking and Tackling for dummies”. Pollard and PSDT obviously read it. Tough titties, it’s over
They should’ve taken their points when on offer. And needless to say Jordy and Richie will be looking back for years to come on those missed kicks. Total respect though for NZ … to get yourself into a winning position with just 14 men is incredible. Objectively would’ve been a win for the ages had they pulled it off.
The ABs scored immediately from the Eben penalty in that same line out… it makes absolutely no difference since they got the try in any case! 😂
Tim you're awesome. I think that's great what you coach. There's always something that was in your control to win or lose a game.
The thing is that even if that try stood, the try the ABs scored minutes later from the resulting play would not have taken place. So we could quite easily say... ok the Aaron Smith try is scored and then play restarts with the ABs not scoring again. Which would mean that the Boks win by the same 1-point margin. If you change one moment, there is an opposite and equal change to the sequence of the moments after... which yes true could mean that the Boks too don't get a penalty here or there - but in the same breath one cannot say that due to the Smith try being awarded, the Boks dont change tact and go and score further points themselves. So anyone now saying "oh the ABs were robbed" is clearly devoid of critical thinking.
The right call was made in the end and thats all we as Rugby lovers want
Thanks, Tim. Spot on! As a diehard ABs supporter, I hate how this sits. To me, this is a symptom of people unwilling to accept nuance in the world. Unfortunately for those people, Rugby is a highly nuanced game. That's what happens when 30 men go hammer and tong in a full contact sport.
I too thought Wayne Barnes had a good night and am gutted his special night was spoiled. I will admit that I think the rub of the green worked largely against the ABs (through my black tinted eyes), but I am gutted for one reason and one reason only - the ABs of 10 years ago wouldve found a way to win - just like the champion Springboks did. And please dont get me wrong, I am enormously proud of what the ABs did at the WC.
I can't wait for the SH rugby season to kick off next year so we can put these things to bed.
Thanks once again, mate. Hope you can head down to the antipodes soon. It'd be great to see you on tour.
Much respect from a SAFFA for this comment!!!
What a gracious sentiment. All respect to you as well as the All Blacks .
We're also asking Tim nicely to cover the Ireland tour of SA next year! 🙏I'm sure there's folks who can offer accommodation, hospitality etc. But rugby will not be the same without his content after this world cup, that's for sure🙌
I say the clear knock on try by the Kiwis was in favour of the KIWIS and Barnes refused to take it to the TMO hmmmmm!!!!
Clearly rugby is important to New Zealand and indeed they can’t handle a loss. While that sounds bad it is in fact a good thing and it’s just the one in a thousand bad sports that’ll make something of this. If SA had lost our bad sports would be making waves right now. It’s just part of two great rugby nations make up.
It's good to discuss these things. What about the inconsistency of TMOs re what they intervene on and what they don't.? Also whether they should even intervene on fine handling judgements. Second, I do think interpretative adjudications in the last ten minutes of a one-score match can't be lumped in with rub of the green or evening out. They are crucially unredeemable.
Another fantastic analysis, thanks Tim !
As kids we were taught that two wrongs don’t make a right. The ref missing the original knock on plus TMO calling back after more than two phases does not make anything right. The ball was knocked on, a try can’t be scored. Get over that.
The thing is everyone is saying that it is a knock on but it was a penalty
@@iceswallowgum8540 right so penalty advantage should be played, and that advantage was over when the ball was knocked on. So come back to play the penalty as did happen.
Thank you Tim for another great video.I watch all your videos. I thought Wayne Barnes and Tom Foley were both brilliant in the final! Barnes for his good and fair handling of the game and Foley for making the(correct)big calls .The kiwis are good blokes but i do laugh cause after 2007 world cup they called for the TMO to have more say over forward passes and knock ons and now in 2023 they saying the TMO has too much influence.Anyway i look forward to your next video.
I laugh at how the Springboks can't score tries. Pathetic attack.
@@JaemanEdwards you obviously don't watch rugby.
@@wjmovies3874 I watched the All Blacks sores 49 tries to the Springboks 27 tries. I watched the All Blacks score 100 points more than second most France. I watched the Springboks lose to Ireland, tin arse a quarter final against a clearly superior France, tin arse the semi final against a godawful England who outplayed them for most of the game, and then tin arse the final against an All Blacks team down to 14 players for 50 minutes by one point scoring no tries.
I watched all that.
@@JaemanEdwards good for you,that's your opinion.The better team won at the end of the day playing to our strengths.
@@wjmovies3874 Good for you.
Well said. With 80 minutes to win, pointing to a single point-of-failure is ludicrous, more so when a top ref has officiated.
Excellent analysis, Tim. I admire your objective opinion on this matter
So, when I watched it live - my thoughts were:
"But you called advantage and play on!"
And it seems my memory of the laws of Rugby were mostly corrected.
Overall - the TMO in this RWC had too much influence.
I'll give some examples: the Yellow and Red card in the Finals.
The knock-on call against Samoa.
Some borderline calls in the AB Ireland match.
The TMO shouldn't be trying to proactively and retrospectively trying to change calls.
It slowed the game and had too much influence.
That knock-on call against Samoa, was that the one where they scored a try, converted it and then was disallowed ? I thought that was one of the worse decisions during this WC. I'm still wondering if that kind of call would have been made against any of the top 5 teams - me thinks not !!
And yet if the TMO had stepped in and overturned a certain try in the 2007 QF, New Zealanders would have been pleased as Punch and SIR Graham Henry would not have accused Wayne Barnes of matchfixing in his biography. So what do you want mate? Surely the right decision is always the best decision. So is it okay to ignore the facts when it goes in your favour? If the Boks had scored that try would you have been happy with it or would you again have accused Barnes of matchfixing?
New Zealanders were happy when the final England try was overturned in the Womans' final and that was for a player being in front of the kicker three phases (real one's in terms of the law, not imagined ones in terms of what pundits and fans think) before the score. Not a single pip from the New Zealand media. NOTHING!!
@@TipOfAfrica0010 Yep - and I'm English too - the rules are 'If it's obvious' - if you have to spend 5 minutes reviewing footage, then it's clearly 'not obvious'
@@MajesticDemonLord EXACTLY !!!
I actually thought that the TMO influence was good as it got things mostly right
As an ABz fan its water under the bridge now. Well done to South Africa They will always be our greatest foe, and you can see what it does for their country!
I also agree that rugby rules can be simplified. E.g the deliberate knock on should be ruled like Rugby League. If you knock it on while trying to catch it from the opposing side its a knock on! Simple. Cheslin getting sent off for that is just plain dumb.
Also as for Wayne Barnes the abuse he copped was appalling and i blame tye IRB and not him. I met Wayne Barnes once at a rugby dinner and he is a sound bloke.
The knock-on rule, for example in Cheslin's case is as dumb as can be. Player is in his own half trying to intercept the ball to go score a try - how the hell can that be a deliberate knock on when a potential try is on. This is one rule that has to be the dumbest in rugby - frustrates me to no end
Love your commitment to the game , love this channel 😊
Tim ,
I really enjoy your Programme and the way you approach your analyses .
I just want to add that the forward pass was a forward pass as the clip from a different angle shows the ball going forward before the line and picked up after the line , I can share the clip if you want .
Keep up the good work I thoroughly enjoy delivery and analyses of the game !
It's mind-blowing to me that someone out there is mad because they didn't get away with an infringement based on a technicality. If the ref has made a crucial mistake that led to a try TMO should rightly be screaming in his ear. Fairness comes first before trying to let the game flow
Amen brother .
The TMO did raise the knock on as soon as it happened. Barnes missed it and called 'no knock on', this is a pure example of human error, it happens. My problem is that had the ABs played for 10 or 20 or 38 phases in lead up to a try. Does the TMO go back throughout all those phases to the original knock on? Id say that would do more damage than having a 2 phase or less rule for the TMO.
For the sake of the game - Keep it simple, let the ref on field be the Lead Decision Maker.
Hey! Know what else is “outside of the rules?”
Knock-ons.
Bok players were screaming knock on at “Barnsey” but he waved them away.
Would these salty islanders have been happy winning from a clear infringement. Why, yes, yes they would.
I would like to invite all of you to the slowmo video of the other try, where you can clearly see the handoff bounce on the ground bouncing forward. So all it all it evens out.
As long as the ball is thrown backwards from the hand it doesn't matter how it gets there.
From a safa, I wonder if NZ are going to get WR to investigate the forward pass when they played France and lost that game a few years back?
Moral of the game is: do not miss your conversion & penalties kicks and take your chances.
Still have huge respect for the AB's. Love the way you play.
After the try was disallowed. New Zeeland camped in the Boks 22. They were awarded consecutive penalties until they scored.
Low probability they would have scored two tries in a row 💥
you dont know that
@@robertmcdougall3520 You also don't know the outcome if the first try was allowed as Tim highlighted. When the Boks played France they hit back every time France scored.
They had a strategy to defend unless chasing the game because that is what wins World Cups. Graham Henry and Ritchie McCaw both admitted that this the All Blacks tactic in the 2011 final which NZ also beat France by a single point.
what ever you say dont give up your day job just yet@@bunnychowmuncher
@@robertmcdougall3520 neither do you. Some NZ fans recon disallowed try is why NZ lost the game. If the try was allowed game would have played out different and NZ would not have scored the same allowed try…
@robertmcdougall3520 Guess who is upset because they are not winning anymore? Foley and Barnes were the TMO and ref in the Ireland game too. Guess who didn't complain because they won.
It doesn’t really matter how many phases as long as we can all agree it was a knock on and it led to a try.
It does matter in the rules because if the ref misses if and it goes after 4 phases then the try should stand
Don't matter cause I'm South African 😂😂
Firstly - love the unbias content. Keep it up.
I agree with you on the complexity of the laws. We are talking about rugby, rugby players, coaches and us mere mortals who argue constantly about the laws and the lack of consistency. I think you are the man who should go through the laws and simplify it. You are level headed and I believe your assessment/adjustment of the laws will be least bias. And not a team effort. Your views on the laws. World rugby doesn't know anything about simplifying laws. It will be a bigger mess if they concentrate their efforts on it. 👍🏻
Great analysis Tim..... A storm in a tea cup. Thriller of a game all the same and amazing world cup.
Shambles from world rugby
There was nothing cheap about that penalty. Wayne Barnes called it right. It was a penalty. Clearly a SA arm pulled at an arm in the lineout.
Very well said Tim, thank you! 👏🏻
A. They pretty much scored another try immediately from that penalty that was awarded against Etzebeth, and B. Can you imagine the uproar on social media if the try was awarded and everybody saw that knock on in the slow motion. The TMO did the right thing there
Naas Botha, one of SA’s greatest fly halves, always took the points on offer
Truth. Test rugby style
The history books have been written, and from now until all eternity will show that South Africa won the 2023 RWC. A country that was not allowed to compete on the world stage until 1995 has now won more RWC than any other country.
Thank you for your thoughts on clarifying rugby rules. Totaly agree the ref should have the final say.
Well covered Tim.
Actually - the viewers at home saw the knock-on when it happened (well I did), the SA players did (you can see Eben indicating to the ref), the ABs themselves knew they had knocked it in. Everyone knew - except Wayne Barnes who happened to be looking somewhere else at that moment.
So - of course his support team should point this out to him. They are there to help him if he misses something.
Would anyone - incl the ABs - have been proud of claiming a try which arose from a knock-on that everyone saw except the ref?
Pathetic that people going down this avenue.
PS - at the time when it happened, and the 2 phases was discussed, I thought you (or maybe some other expert) said it was only guidance not an actual rule?
Cheers
None of this matters:
1) Ref missed an obvious knock on which lead to the try in the first place
2) NZ scored a try a minute later as a result of a penatly in the build up of the disallowed try
3) Try NZ did score looked like it came from a forward pass\knock on
This is true. WTF are we even talking about?
I thought the final pass for the 2nd try was flat enough to get benefit of the doubt...and I'm a Bok supporter.
@@jksinorbit 50:50 for me and I'm a neutral
I think it drifter forward from Teala's hands before it hit the the ground. Some refs would have called it forward while others would not so it's 50\50.@@jksinorbit
@@jksinorbit no, was 100 percent forward. at least a foot; from the upper angle you can see this; it travelled in the air more forward than it bounced forward.
Cheers Tim, 100% same view from me, a kiwi. My two problems with the officiating of the final and rugby in general was a) allowing the boks to rest and drag the game out beyond 2hrs, and b) the yellow card to frizzel. I personally don't think his actions warranted a penalty. He botched a legal clear out, failed, accidentally landed on mbongi's leg. Are we going to penalise everyone who lands on someone at a ruck now? Anyway, the refs weren't the ones in black dropping the ball or kicking poorly or replacing Aaron Smith with 15mins remaining. Boks win fair n square for me
Nice little dig at Fozzie at the end. What a pillac you are.
At the time I thought Frizzzel's actions were dirty play and actually warranted a red.
@@nic0072 I'm interested in why you think that. To me, he attempted a legal clearout and failed, and the refs seem to think the same thing. If he'd targeted the leg, he'd have received a red. What are the physical actions you think he's done to deserve a red?
@@ChrisBrown-or8ky It didn't look to me as if he was doing any clearing out. He was standing there to the side, then did an inexplicable neck roll and then followed it up by flopping onto the injured player with his full weight. When I saw it the first time, I thought it was dirty play and I still think so.
Methinks the ABs were hellbend on taking out Bongi or Faf within the first 10 minutes and risk a yellow since the Boks opted for a 7-1 split. They managed to get Bongi within 3 minutes and it paid off. This was no accident and disgusting. Karma is always lurking and the tactic backfired spectacularly when own captain got a red. Boks got zero 50/50 calls from the 31st minute and with two yellows still hung on to win. The best team won, full stop. It appears some NZ fans just cannot lose without someome to blame, like the mystical person names "Suzie" who allegedly "poisoned" the ABs in 1995. Pffft
So excited that we can watch cricket 🏏, so over the whinning about the rugby 🏉
Ezebeth had played NZL player in air during lineout which created the knock on. This was heard and seen by TMO and voiced on field
technology and cameras were so advanced apparently
but this was a world cup with most Probably the most controversial moments
how will they rectify this in 2027
Springboks still deserves a 4th title, just sad that world media tries to flush that down the drain by reflecting only on what went against FRA/ENG/NZ
forgetting that SA also had to fight against the same odds
I’d like to make an alternative argument to the current slam the bunker and TMO, I’ve been watching and playing rugby since I was about 6 years old, refereeing standards have fallen as the rules have become more complicated and in the last 8 years I have found that every evenly contested match has been decided by multiple poor refereeing decisions, however since the rugby championship this season when the increased TMO and bunker system came in to place, it’s the first time in those 8 years that I have been satisfied that the matches have been won by players and not officials, so while it’s not perfect, I say well done world rugby for improving the officiating in our game
I tend to agree with you on this far more than the people calling for getting rid of the video refs and allowing the ref to make mistakes and live with it. We should 100% be working to make the TMO more seamless so the correct decisions are made wherever possible. Yes cut down the waiting and delays as much as we can and the bunker is the first step but there's no way that I want to go back to a fallible ref on the field making decisions from his viewpoint when millions of fans can see all over the world that the decisions are wrong with the benefit of multiple camera angles and slow motion.
For those worried about the 'product' of rugby this helps make it faster paced with less delays and those that prefer games not to be decided by ref mistakes or lack of information are more likely to have the players decide the outcome. It seems to me to be an utterly illogical position to want to revert back to incorrect calls being the expected part of the game.
That said - I do hate how many cards have been injected into the game and the influence they have on the outcomes. Red cards were always used for intentional foul play where the intent was to injure other players. I completely understand the need for the sport to try and control head injury due to lawsuits and how devastating CTE is - but we really need something new to adjudge intent in high tackles rather than trying to crowbar them into the old foul play red card mechanism. Whether it is replacement of a red carded player on the day with lengthy bans for poor tackle technique or some other mechanism, I don't really care. But Cane getting a red in a world cup final should be the turning point for laws in this regard. I'm a bok supporter but I don't think the laws of the game should leave a team with 14 on the pitch for a tackle like that. I completely understand why it was a red under the current laws of the game and Cane's technique was bad but he only had a split second to react to Kriel's change of direction - failing to do so is not foul play, it's an impossible to eradicate consequence of the speed of human nerve speed conduction and muscle reaction time. There needs to be a better accommodation of this physical reality in the laws of the game.
@@Narapoia1 agreed 100%
But what has not changed is if you drop the ball its a knock on or if you miss kicks for poles its missed points as is electing to kick for touch. As much as the laws have changed poor basic skills and making bad decisions like not taking kicks for poles but opting for touch will still lose you matches regardless of how worse referees are. If a team has flawless passing and skills and nails all its kicks still loses to something weird then you have a point.
The All Blacks knew the Boks had very good defence so they should have taken three points every time the opportunity presented itself.
The other issue with the All Blacks has been poor discipline for quite some time even before the final. None of this is really about reffing in this case because both sides had to deal with it.
@@bunnychowmuncher but in the old way that dropping of the ball would have been missed, im glad regardless of who is on the receiving end of a correct decision that they don’t like, that the correct decision is being made
I saw a detailed breakdown of the incident. There were not more than two (only one that could be argued) between the knock on and the try so, no it should not stand.
2nd 3rd and 4th plays can also be considered rucks as they all had players from each team on feet closing around the ball. But this is the point that Tim is trying to raise, the laws have become too technical which has impeded on the simplicity of the game. Now we have rugby pundits questioning whether or not the phases leading up to the Smith disallowed try were even phases.
They are trying to change the game to take out hard work and just plain grit. All in and effort to counter the Boks .
The Springbok players immediately called for the knock-on, when it happened. It was clearly audible. If the ref had not called it back, it would have been really unfair. Besides that, their next try was a clear forward pass or drop forward, so it should not have been allowed. Either way, the result is the same.
Ball was lost forward in a TACKLE so no try . Whether there was a an attempt to pass or not (ball ended up halfway between the tackled player and Barrett who came in halfway to pick up the ball) is of no consequence.
During any rugby game, there are a number of bad refereeing calls that affect teams. Naturally, the losing side tends to make the most noise about it. Very few people win a game and the have a rant about the referee. So, we should all just take it with a pinch of salt and move on.
I think I took too many pinches of salt.
right coming from a SA think if that call went against you, you be having a different thought
@@robertmcdougall3520we would be complaining as you are. So we understand where you coming from.
I could not agree more ! We have the same BS about Kolbe charge where World Rugby allegedly acknowledges in private that the conversion should have been retried. Complete salt, no question about it...
And yes, please simplify the rules of the game, by all means we need to!
Spot on Tim, any one moment in the game can change the dynamics of the match completely, so who can say that this would have been the defining moment of the final. There were so many other moments that led to the final score.
Are forward passes & knock ons legal now ?
Sometimes
The same happened with Ireland and NZ in one of the first two tries, It's not nice. It happens. I was hoping the ABs would win against SA, but no use in complaining now.
Congratulations on getting 60k plus subscribers, well deserved…🍾👍🏻
Hey Tim, I missed you. Here's what I think:
1. Barnes having to repeat "no knock on" was probably because the Springboks called for the knock on. And because the knock on was clear and obvious, it would've been scandalous for the TMO to not intervene and let that try stand. What the TMO could've done better was to intervene earlier, but how far behind are they watching the game whilst looking out for head contacts and all that? The TMO is bound to be a few phases behind by default.
2. In any case, a penalty was awarded which led eventually to the BB try. So that lineout knockon or penalty leads to a maximum of 1 try which does not change the result as is.
3. My only issue with that try being disallowed after so many phases, was that it ate time into Kolisi's yellow card. I don't know if that time was added back.
And finally, the Springboks were obviously comfortable in defending their lead. Had they not been leading, they would've also put on a fight and it would not have looked like a NZ second half. Love, from 🇿🇦
@@OzyMandias359 thanks, ye great Ozymandias!
My question is how far back should tmo go in the lead up to a try, to pull up missed infringements/foul play? 5, 10, 30+ phase plays?
@@johnr2387 Good question but it's not easy to answer. For all we know, the TMO might have called the knock on the instant he saw it. How many phases behind is the TMO? All the 4 cards given in that final were looked at a few phases after they had happened.
2 phases should be the maximum for disputable knock ons. Any clear + obvious foul play that leads to a try should however be recalled as soon as the TMO sees it, if that's 4 phases later, so be it.
In anycase, someone gave the definition of a phase and they were not more than 2 in the build up to the AS try.
Questionable, the 2nd 3rd and 4th plays can also be considered rucks as they all had players from each team on feet closing around the ball on the ground. But this is the point that Tim is trying to raise, the laws have become too technical which has impeded on the simplicity of the game. Now we have rugby pundits questioning whether or not the phases leading up to the Smith disallowed try were even phases.
Also I'm more in support of reverting back to the simple game, the ref on the field should continue as is and be the Lead Decision Maker. All match officials including tmo are only human and miss infringements /foul plays, it happens@@riri1718
I think what NZers are angry about is the TMO took them out of the game. It should have been the best game and a fair game in the World Cup but it wasn’t .
The change that’s needed is the ref needs to make a call how he sees it . Not have the TMO make the final call. Canes red card wasn’t intentional , cane had little time to adjust his body movement , and it wasn’t ferocious, the player didn’t get hurt, this is where we needed the Ref to say from what I saw it doesn’t deserve to be a red card and then SIA does a high tackle cuts Ardies forehead and then say it’s not a Red. The inconsistency of the TMO .
Wayne Barnes apologises to Ardie for penalising him , but yeah TMO didn’t take it back like they did to Aaron’s smith try which was more kickable position.
Then the 2nd to last scrum should have been a penalty to NZ for not putting the ball in , yeah the TMO was shocking , but in saying that , this has nothing to do with South Africa, I think South Africa played very well and fair . As an English supporter I just wanted to see a fair game without the influence of the ref or the TMO.
You mean their mistakes like the knock-on and missed kicks took them out of the game? (Also, Barnes didn't apologise to Ardie ... not sure why this lie keeps getting repeated ... he said "I'm sorry Ardie, I didn't see it that way" ... polite disagreement != apology.)
@@ballasgleek - regardless Barnes made the wrong call but the TMO didn’t do anything to rectify it . The knock-ons and missed penalties would most likely be due to tiredness while playing with 14 men.
Barnes penalises frizell with a yellow card and then the TMO doesn’t upgrade to a Red cause it was accidental ? So the question is should it just be a penalty not a yellow.
Etzebeth leads with Elbow which connects with Canes face, ref was close and it was not looked at by TMO….
I think the NZers were harshly done by the TMO inconsistency. That’s all I’m saying .
@@towbiyah998 right … and whose fault was it they were down to 14 men? At the end of the day, the result was bang on. That’s my point.
@@ballasgleek - not too sure if English is your second language , just highlighting the TMO inconsistency, that’s all.
And i think giving out Red cards should change and be determined on how reckless it was and or whether it caused injury to a max of 20 mins or at least 10 where the red carded person can not come back on this should be left to the Ref to decide if it’s a red card as he’s the one to judge the severity of it.
A very thourough & fair & insightful review ... great work Tim. We admire your refusal to be biased.
World rugby just threw all the match officials under the bus. Threw the game under the bus. Simplify the rules. Well said Tim.
Great to see you again Tim... I am a die hard NZ fan, always will be... Fact: NZ left 5pts on the field. I have nooooooo beef with the Wayne. The TMO had too much influence on all the games in RWC23...
good pushback on a BS story. Nobody is talking about the two NZ professional fouls within the 5m line with SA attacking in the 12th minute. What would have the game looked like if NZ got 1-2 yellow cards in that phase of the game? ok besides the SA early advantage, probably Cane and Kolisi would not not have been carded later as it would have been a different game. Impossible to predict impact of moments on the final result. Game is won or lost after 80 minutes and there is a winner and a loser.
Nor are they talking about Ebans forearm to Cane head which would have put SA down to 14 men.....Shes a funny old game. It is what it is.