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Mercedes eCitaro with solid state battery test ride
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2024
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The city where I am from (Darmstadt) received 24 new eCitaros last month. I always enjoy riding in them :)
I let one out in traffic in Heidelberg yesterday.
I have only seen them on one route here in Oslo. Not a fan of the front but we also have the normal citaros in my area which are so stunning.
you should take a ride on route 60 Vippetangen Tonsenhagen. there you kan observe several eCitaros and Solaris electric buses. Line 60 is so far the only all electric bus line,
The LMP it‘s a kind of semi solid state, because the separator layer is a polymer foil. The cell chemistry is LFP and the battery needs a working temperature about 70 to 80 degrees Celsius. Then the polymer foil is going to be semi solid.
If the temperatures are lower, the battery cannot used, neither discharged nor charged. The battery heater takes about 2 kW, so you need nearly 50 kWh per day for heating up the batteries.
how much does each one cost???
This is the first time I’ve seen a vehicle with solid state batteries. They should be a leap forward in battery technology.
They will be if they can speed up the charging speeds......as it is they are a no go for general dutys
This is actually pretty old technology, Bolloré Bluecar that was released in 2011 used this kind of battery, or at least older version of it.
@@abraxastulammo9940 You still have to pay for the heating.
If I recall well, the Bollore bluecar (which was not much bigger than a twingo, or a fiat 500) needed 200W constantly to keep the battery at temperature.
That's a lot of energy for such a small car 24/24.
Those batterie are for the niche market of public transportation, where the vehicule is used half of the day, and charged the other half.
@@abraxastulammo9940 Why are you bringing up toyota in this?
We are talking about Bollore's LMP solid state batteries.
To my knowledge Toyota is going full on Hydrogen, and will die because of this.
@@xmtxx so thats why its not popular yet, heating cost too much energy and the charging speed is slow
Nice guy from Mercedes. Super savy! Way better than regular PR folks... Nice job Bjørn!
Looked like an engineer to me. "Always talk to the engineers" is my motto.
What a scope Bjorn, well done, great coverage and hats off to Mercedes for giving you open access to this bus and technology.
Yeah. Super impressive. I did not know how far Mercedes was on battery and motor tech. This vehicle is impressive.
scope ? I guess you mean scoop
Electric Axle supplied by ZF, LMP (LFP) battery packs supplied by Bolloré. So it is not really Daimler technology, but Daimler Buses integrates components that exist on the market for every other manufacturer of busses for public transport as well. The actual progress that Daimler Busses made is allowing their development divisions to compose an electric bus with these parameters like range and to assemble them in very limited quantities. Marketing still has a catch: it is the price of the eCitaro. They make eCitaro superexpensive in order to get a manufacturer share of the saved Diesel costs and to make their Diesel busses the more economical product (TCO wise) for the customer.
@@koeniglicher thanks for the insight
@@hendrikhardeman9832 English was never my best subject at school 😂
These guys are living in the future, wow
He did say these are on the market for 3 years.
@@moestrei
The same bus with the other battery form has been on the road for 3 years. The solid state is on the road, he said starting this year.
@@AWildBard Aha....Ok.....Thanks!
Mr. Michael was a great co-host too!
Yes, he did very well indeed
This is great! I love seeing companies making progress towards cleaner transportation. thanks for covering this one Bjorn!
We have an LTO battery bus that charges at 500 kW with a possibility of 600 kW due to the power of the pantograph. It is in operation for a few years now.
Six to 8 min charges.
In which city?
@@PaoloSulprizio Klaipeda, Lithuania.
Electric buses in Eindhoven NL (VDL Citea) have had pantographs since 2016 as well. It makes a lot of sense and reportedly works well. It’s kind of cool seeing a big bus like this with a regular CCS combo socket, though.
Irizar from the Basque country has been delivering futuristic buses with 600 kW OppCharge for a few years as well.
@@44Bigs I goes small battery and charging often makes sense for city lines and expensive batteries. For intercity lines it's better to have the capacity for whole day operation.
Great, we see so many technical details and how this all works. Impressive! And your subtitled efficiency data shows that a fully loaded bus is about twice as efficient than a fully loaded car...
Consumption around 800 Wh/km after the test drive, for the drive train. But at the beginnning the value shown was around 2000 Wh/km.
It probably goes up the more accelerations is made per km, compared to just maintaining speed.
@@NikolaiBeier Yes but you have to take into account the number of passengers. For a Model 3 with 5 persons in city traffic at 125 Wh/km it is 25 Wh/km/Person, for the eCitaro at 900 Wh/km and 80 passengers it is about 11 Wh/km/person.
Very interesting videos from Daimler and Mercedes. You're doing a great job, Björn!
Love electric buses! We have the BYD electric buses here in Sweden too. So quiet and smooooooth compared to the old biogas-buses we used to have. :)
BYD makes even buses? Good to know. In Lublin (Poland) we have tested one EV bus and it was smooth too. I guess that engines can be programmed for smooth acceleration unlike conventional ones (which depend strictly on driver skills and his/her mood).
@@SULFURIOUS This. Bus drivers need to be either retrained for electric buses or limit the acceleration, because in Copenhagen they are driving like lunatics.
In my hometown they use the Scania electric buses. Ngl I prefer the other Scania buses because they’re smoother but I guess it’s good for the environment 👍
And just across the sea, in Riga we have trolleybuses since 1947. Only the ones purchased in 2000's (2004-2005 and afterwards) are quite and smooth. In previous ones, it wasn't possible to speak at speeds above 50km/h (there are few streets with 70km/h limit and trolleybus lines)
We have started testing som BEV buses though. And there are few intercity routes running converted Sprinters
@@jatterhog which town?
I love how he mentioned that they limited the acceleration curve.
They definitely didn't do this with the hybrid buses they got in London 5 or 6 years ago, saw plenty of passengers get knocked around when a driver accelerated too hard on electric.
happens everyday in paris, they also have hybrid buses
Still occurs, everyone goes flying on BYD ones
First time I have ridden one of those electric buses that are connected, I got thrown around due to the acceleration.
The locals didn’t mind them.
My brother complained about VDL bus drivers accelerating and braking hard constantly and he found it annoying. I didn’t find it too bad tho
also happens on polish modern trolleybuses and electric buses
This road trip is some of your best work, most informative. Excellent video Bjørn.
Regarding buses, Bjørn do you know that in Bodø we now have only electric city buses (Volvo electric)? They charge them several places in Bodø (the airport, Rønvika, etc.) in a special way -> they do not connect them to a charger through a cabel, but they extend the "charger" (looks like a tram charging) from the roof and charge superfast. Maybe it's interesting for you to come here and make a video about that. I guess Bodø is the first city in the world with only electric city buses.
I guess they don't have a battery but a supercapacitor instead
@@kgenkov No, it's battery. Supercap energy density still too low.
@@kgenkov Could be LTO battery (Lithium titanate oxide anode instead of graphite anode). LTO has lower energy density but is extremely robust and safe and can be charged at very high rate. See Mercedes's battery chemistry comparison at 9:00 in this video.
More than a few cities in CHINA completely electric - big cities to - internet searching will find
@@wolfgangpreier9160 I know some applications:
-Windturbine pitch drive backup: Enough energy to drive back the blade to feather position once in case of power outage, longer livetime and better pretiction of health status than lead acid batteries.
-Short time UPS, e.g. 1MW for 1second, e.g. for paintshops etc.
-Grid Stabilizer: Store the energy to feed a virtual inertia simulation, or feed in power instantly at a frequency droop for 10s until diesel gensets have started. Or until water turbine have changed power etc.
-my electric kickscooter. Can go only 1km with one charge, but can be recharged 1000 000 times.
Great video Björn, thanks for brining busses and trucks under our attention. Really love this!!!
This was super interesting to watch. The guy from Mercedes was clearly very knowledgeable. I can wait to see these on city streets.
Awesome, thanks for the technical deep-dive! I learned lot of interesting facts and engineering challenges. Also thanks to Mercedes for providing info on an engineering level (also the slides)!
Bjorn, i love these reports, thank you very very much for this. Please take other kind of exotic reports into consideration in the future, e.g. a report of the battery and DC charging analysis of the Rimac Nevera :).
Truly beautiful! I'm very glad CZcams suggested this video to me. Always wanted to see a presentation of the eCitaro.
Thanks for the Spec Sheets! Very interesting for an engineering student. Pretty nice that MB let you Show them
Wonderful!! You find very interesting subjects and interview them well!
Michael was a very nice lovely guide!
Awesome coverage Bjørn👍
This is super cool! Thanks Bjorn!
Thanks for the Video Björn. Great stuff.
Wow 🤩 nice bus ! Thanks for another great video update
great work as usual Bjorn - thanks
Very interesting. Thanks a lot for the video!
This brings back memories as in my city we had Citaros since around 2007. In the meanwhile I mainly drive the car so it’s literally been years since going onboard one of them, but I did like them as a public transport bus. Great job guys 👌
Very interesting to get some insight on the different batteries. Awesome innovations.
Thank you for showing us this video.
Is very informative
Nice to see realistic testing like I do on my channel no single person driving tests. Cheers
Great job! Nice info about electric buses!
I've just seen the future of bus and coach industry! Thanks Bjorn and Mercedes for the preview... And consumption is only 6 x my Tesla M3
Active tilt suspension. I once found it in bus climbing mountain route, Malaysia Genting.
Motor chassis looks like commuter train EMU.
Got to love German engineering! This is incredible. It will take decades to see anything like this in the US
You guys have Proterra who are doing some great stuff with electric buses. Buy shares...they're going places.
@@edwardbyard6540 More importantly, Merc own Freightliner.
German engineering with French solid-state batteries...
@@pxidr French/canadian. Bolloré owns Bluesolution, the canadian firm that develops these batteries. :)
I really like German engineering but it was really the US (Tesla!) that kicked off the EV revolution!
I am commuting to Karlsruhe for years and drive past the Daimler Truck factory in Wörth daily. The factory is huge! They do have a dentist, a small supermarket, a kindergarden and even a pizza delivery service. The whole area has almost the size of a small city.
This was really interesting to see!
Great video Bjorn! In the future, they could redesign the bus to be less taller (by a couple of feet) as they don't have the diesel engine to worry about, from my observation that is the limiting factor in height, rear passengers need to also be able to stand. Less drag, less cabin volume to heat/cool.
Future looks bright for this technology.
Definitely the way forward. Even if this was verging on Bus Spotter level of enthusiasm. Wonder how they'll go out with a DC top-up system if someone runs one flat mid-winter in the middle of a little village.
Most likely they tow it as batteries are getting cold then. Not really great to prep and charge 4 hours from diesel generator to get some little range. These are for 5-8km routes I would imagine.
It's smart to have the charger offboard
The first electric bus I drove with was in the 1980s in the GDR, with power cable on the roof like an ICE train.
The first eCitaro in our City (Zug in Switzerland) started to operate in November 2019. And this year on September 18th at the e-Mobility day here in Zug, Mercedes showed the longer version of the eCitaro as an articulated bus.
So good to see!
Electrifying busses should be our number 1 priority as a state. It's the best way to safe CO2 and you will never run into charging problems, because you can simply plan it know perfectly well which route the busses take, how long they drive and how long they can charge. Amazing to see Daimler move in the right direction here, I hope most states will understand soon enough that this is going to be a really good thing to do.
@@ms-jl6dl Normal buses cost a lot too and they produce a lot of CO2 because of their high consumption and obviously the fact, that they pretty much drive all day, whereas a normal person usually only drives 30-40km a day.
Since the bottleneck for electric vehicles is still battery supply using them efficient by powering buses that drive all day instead of fat SUVs which are often enough just used by a single person on their drives.
And if you think that EVs in general are not lowering CO2 consumption, then maybe this is the wrong channel for you... Even if the energy mix is not ideal it's still a lot better than ICE cars, especially if you have an honest comparison, where you look at the emissions which are created by production, refinement and transport of fossils for ICE cars. (on top of the CO2 there is the fact that you have no local emissions, thus better air quality too, which is especially nice since buses are usually driving around in densely populated areas)
So you basically only spend money you would have to spend anyway whenever you need to get a new bus. Buses are really expensive either way, so the difference in cost isn't big when getting them and you will likely have lower maintanance cost and driving using electricity is still way cheaper than using fossils.
It's rather funny how you say it's a lot of cost and no effect and talk about my lack of understanding when anyone with half a brain can see that this is insanely effective with 0 cost.
And Norway (again maybe you aren't around this channel much so you wouldn't know) is nearly 100% renewable energy, Sweden and Finnland are both close to 50%.
On top of that we have nuclear energy as pretty clean energy source at least in term of CO2 and the amount of Energy produced by renewables is growing every year.
Excellent video amd wow, what a bus.
absolutely awesome
eCitaros are great. Much more comfortable than the Diesel counterparts. The acceleration is just soo much more comfortable and in our town we got both charging and W-Lan on them.
Nice! Banana box Test next?
Very cool stuff!
Very cool bus, interesting about the range on a solid state battery compared to an NMC.
Awesome! According to the insert at 5:07 these are LFP solid state batteries (LFP cathode, Li-Metal anode) with an expected life of 3600 full cycles. The bus uses a 10% buffer so it should be a lot more cycles with that.
So 20-30 years of operation. That would be huge compared to nmc.
@@Bot.number.69420 According to Bjørn/Daimlers data....10 years expected lifetime.
@@mondeo984 3600 cycles is about ten years of daily operation and most buses won't be used so much. I think around 15 years is good, then they will upgrade to newer battery tech anyway and be used for another 15 years (on second hand market). Still I imagine end of life as 80% capacity left and hopefully not too high internal resistance so they could be used on shorter routes.
I learned a new term: "Opportunity charging". I mean I know the procedure, I just did not know that it has a name.
Isn't this just Bjorn's ABC? ;)
Bro nice and informative video
Your motorhome options are getting better and better.
Perfect!
This is amazing. Well done Mercedes.
Since the batteries are on the roof, I wonder: does the bus not run the risk of rolling over when it's empty? Hence the sandbags and dummy passengers...
Same question... are the sandbags there for balancing the centre of gravity ?
@@GaganGrewalf095 No, only for realistic passenger load simulation, you won't get any extra weight in practice as it will limit the range for no reason. The floor is still heavy enough.
@@GaganGrewalf095 It was explained, the suspension is active or something like that. It counters the forces maintaining the bus vertical.
Anyway, I assume that the driver must adapt to this situation, especially if the bus is empty.
There are also Polish Solaris electric buses in Oslo.
Wish we had them in our cities as well 😔
No Volvo electric buses in Oslo?
The heavy batteries on the roof seems like an issue but its really not because the bus has a very wide stance and never travels very fast so the chances of the bus tipping over are very slim
And buses do have active air suspension that compensates on curves. How do you think they keep those double deckers from tipping over?
They’d be slimmer with the batteries on the bottom.
@@jeffm.2119 yeah you cant have anything down there... you need the floor to be as low as possible because old women and small children will have a hard time getting on there
@@LoneWolf-wp9dn you could just leave the entry low and raise the rest of the floor though
@@TheMobilefidelity well in double deckers your second deck isn't that heavy, as compared to the battery pack, so....
12:43 I thought "WTF isn't that the busdriver?? AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH" xD
Yes, it was a straight stretch of road. :D
It would be funny or fun to see an unlimited acceleration bus. Probably would bring the project cars bus to real life 😂
Terrific.
2:53 if it is a solid state battery, why does it say Lithium Polymer Battery on the sticker? If i remember correctly solid state batteries differ from regular lithium batteries, in that they dont have a liquid or polymer as an electrolyte, but a solid one instead
@@uludak8468 with polymer batteries the electrolyte isnt fully solid. Its more like a gel, so it wont leak out if the battery falls over, whereas the SSE is a completely solid ionic conductor, which often is made of some type of ceramic
@@uludak8468 didnt know that! I will surely look into those :)
@@harmhoeks5996 yep, really weird. I remember to that solid state batteries were still under development, the most promising being controversial, the one from the Goodenough fellow, with the help of some ceramic or glass electrolyte and Toyota.
It may be that this technology was not yet public?, or the solid state is not quite solid but almost, so it was not according to definition?.
Damn, looked again, so it seems that ssbs exist from quite some time, and chinese are producing them for cars since 3 years already
And by the way, a polymer can be solid also, not only gel
And this is a good replacement for CNG buses! Not mentioning even diesel ones.
Just imagine a nice bus depot with charging powered mostly by solar panels and vertical wind turbines (smaller ones can be placed atop buildings or roofs).
You’re welcome to show us your calculations...
...oh wait, you haven’t done any.
@@pascaladh You just exaggerate things. Do the math: 6 eCitaros with 88 kW maximum charge power each equals 528 kW for around 5 hours (or 0.528 MW).
Your comment is just FUD. Electric „future“ is already here - no diesel- or hydrogenhead can stop it …
I never said that it would be solely powered with solar or VAWT...
Even add 5 small 10kW (50kW max total) VAWT's and for example 50kWp of solar panels. It's already aloot and should nicely reduce grid consumption. Small cities depots would never charge 5-10 buses at the same time...
Long-term it could safe a loot of money esp. in countries that have expensive coal-generated energy. :>
@@W210T Hey. I miscalculated by a factor 1000. Sorry about that - but the idea of a bus depot supplying all its busses with power from sun and wind just doesn't work unless the depot has field nearby which is included.
(I'll delete my Calc above - I'm all for electric, but it has to be realistic )
@@ms-jl6dl argumentum ad hominem, that is all you have to offer. Says more about yourself than your "opinion".
That’s actually mind blowing
24🚌🔥fire in Stuttgart today. Early reports say the fire began in an eCitaro with the SBB pack.
I love how low to the grown it is, very useful for accessibility.
"So, how low is the center of gravity?"
"No."
center of mass
With batteries on the roof I don't think it will be low.
@@clevernduruza8624 : I think that was Petr's point...
With the additional batteries down there, the electro motors and all the other periphery that’s not a problem. Especially because it’s a bus, not a racecar. Think about double decker busses 😉
The Batteries are also not heated up to 80 Degrees......
solid state battery nice
18:42 "this is the front and the dings" LOL
Cant wait till this drops in my country in 50 years
Such a beautiful bus..
Wow so pretty efficient. Wow.
In the video, mentioned service life '+++'. So how long it can be used, compared to NMC? Further, it is good to explain the system thermal energy management.
Thanks my country bought 10 of them. Interesting
At first seeing the consumption around total 400km of range i was a little concerned.. but i forgot the bus was at 2/3rd capacity with the weight! what an incredible acheivement
กำลังสนใจ solid state battery เห็นการทดสอบแล้ว น่าจะเห็นทั่วไปไม่นานนี้แน่
ชาร์จนานหน่อย แต่ก็ไม่ต้องชาร์จบ่อย
Interesting to see! EV buses are a pleasant change.
Really interesting to see buses and lorries with new technologies and better than diesel ones!! They need to come to a cities!!
One thing though: why did they change the battery type on the eCitaro? Could they get more energy/range? What about cost difference? 👍👍
great thing,city battery bus, no noise,no vibration around,no smoke. bad is i don t know how long to charge since you should use them 24/7. there are buses like this in Shanghai. great for big cities
Wow !! Great.
The most interresting information for me is that the battery needs to be heatet to 80 degrees. Obviosly this prolongs the life in a way that makes solid state batteries useable.
One thing I miss in electric busses built today is the Primove/emil system that is used in Braunschweig. There they have 4 electric Busses each one fitted with what is essentially a beefed up wireless charger in the floor and they have 3 bus stops with these chargers, so they don't even have to plug the bus in usually during a shift. They can just charge them during a stop.
Why this didn't make it anywhere else is beyond me, because the idea is great and would probably save a lot of time and money in the long run (as bus companies don't need as many busses that way)
good one!
Bjorn, this could be the START of something BIG.
My mentor Lindsay Fox brought into Australia. Freightliner Cascadia a few weeks ago after dismissing my future projections with him in his kitchen 18 months ago! Some people are out there LISTENING!
MERCEDES BENZ is ONE.....
Bjorn's new RV ;)
Recently there have been alot of fires in german bus- depots which destroyed about a 100 busses. It is rumored that electric buses caused this. I hope they can make this tech more safe...
solid state batteries shouldn't have such problems any more.
Also according to the inserted infographic at 5:07, the guide is talking about the slightly higher specs of the longer articulated bus version.
The bus actually shown has 6 batteries instead of 7 and 378 kWh instead of 441 kWh.
I notice that too.
2 batterys on the down rear.
2 batterys on the up rear .
Then the air conditioner at the upper center.
And 2 more batterys on the up front.
So the 6 battery packs with 63kW each totals 378kW.
If they charge at max of 88kWh, means each 63kW pack charge only at 14,6kWh on DC... what do you think?
@@webdroid7938 This is clearly not the most advanced battery tech, but who cares if it's good enough and lasts for 15 years or more. slow charging is fine for buses that stand in the depot all night.
@@w0ttheh3ll you are right on night slow charging for the bus and other similar motility use, but would be more simple and cost-effective in AC charge at a range of 14,5kWh each pack. There is some future strategy on that slow DC charging that wasn't announced, I think...
Super !👏👏
Wow great scope didn't know solid state battery was being tested
Thinking about the enormous noise various diesel buses make, the “slight noise” comment made me laugh really hard! I wish all buses were that quiet. The Daimler reps are able to have normal conversation with no shouting and hardly any background noise as Bjorn records…
Gooood video
I like the build quality of mb, the are certainly not front runners with new electrical busses. But they seem to have beter developed there product with less teething problems because of that.
Can''t wait to see those replace the diesel buses in my city
พอร์ตชาร์จอันเดียวพอหรอครับพี่ เค้ากลัวมันรก หรือแบตมันรับได้แค่นั้น
แล้วชาร์จนานไหมครับพี่
ว่าแต่ตัวจริงมันจะมีกล้องติดรอบรถหรือทางขึ้นไหม?
What does roof battery placement do for self balancing of the bus? eCitaro looks a bit wobbly because of the high center of gravity.
Really nice and knowledgeable guy from Daimler. But was Bjorn just a tiny bit rude to him at the beginning? :) "We have some people here from Daimler... but whatever, let's see the bus... OK, so what's your name again?" Probably just too excited to check out the bus :) great scoop in any case!
You gotta love german's style of English
Styropore :D
Styropor is the German word for styrofoam.
Surprised to see batteries on the roof, a very good idea to get them out the way but it worries me for high centre of gravity, but such a great electric idea! The design looks like a step forward!
Bjorn, ask about guide prices. You can help a lot of mayors look into it probably.
do you know the price of this bus? I cannot seem to find a price for it.