Why your CeramicSpeed (or other) OSPW will cost you watts due to aero drag
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- čas přidán 4. 08. 2024
- Here is why a rear pulley OSPW upgrade (such as ceramicspeed or fourier or kcnc or rockbros) will likely cost you money, watts and seconds due to aero drag vs friction gains on flat courses.
Proof is in this unlisted video: • UNLISTED Geek edition ...
CeramicSpeed admits that an OSPW causes drag here: • Driven - Pursuing One ...
0:00 Intro
0:45 OSPW question?
1:40 Scientific method
2:10 CeremicSpeed Claims
3:12 Savings in Watts
3:38 Quick test of the OSPW
4:15 Weight losses
4:50 Aero losses
5:10 Comparison of pulley sizes
5:50 Ballpark figures
6:20 OSPW calculator
6:55 Overall loss in KONA
7:35 Nerd Out: Correcting for gradient
8:42 Emperor's New Clothes
9:39 More gains if slower!
10:00 OSPW designs
OSPW CALCULATOR
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#ceramicspeed #ospw #aero - Sport
If you want more proof check out our unlisted video: czcams.com/video/vWDIQVv10BU/video.html and our calculator fft.tips/ospw (and please join us on our strava club: fft.tips/strava). To those who asked about 0.8w.....here is a quick back of the envelope calculation. We previously showed that 10cm of 4mm (area 400mm2) exposed cable costs about 1w (czcams.com/video/fbM4fEIu8YY/video.html
) now using calipers a small OSPW is 30mm extra long and 16mm in width (frontal area= 480mm2)...so very roughly thats 480/400 x 1 = 1.2w; a large OSPW as shown in this video was 63mm longer (frontal area = 1008mm2) = 2.52w losses...but we could take off 1/3 of this number because of position in 'dirty air' and 1/3 because you are only in a small gear sometimes meaning the OSPW is most exposed, leaving a third remaining, so that's 2.52/3 = 0.8w. More here: czcams.com/video/9IZPvSe1RRE/video.html&t=80
Head down, elbows in.
Cost = $0. Saves 10 watts+.
Ride safe everyone.
Get real lucky with the (tail)wind, also power for free.
Ride recumbent :P
Tin of baked beans 20p "tail wind" + 5 watts
Actually aerobars + extremely aero position = 50 watts, which should be around 3-5 km/h
All the power in cycling is in the pedaling and gearing so other than better gearing there is nothing you can add too a bicycle that will increase power. Note: Watt is a unit of power.
*_Ceramic Speed has left the chat_*
they will come back with a vengeance
😂😂😂😂
Pmsl
Hahahahah 🤣🤣🤣
Lol
Lost 50lbs this season, best $0.00 gains ever(still not fast). Love the Channel. Funny how I bought an endurance road bike in 2016 with through axles and hydraulic disc brakes and now the pros have finally converted over. When I’m ready to buy a aero or race bike I’ll know your channel has given me all the info I could ever ask for.
The mental gain could be a factor, having a bling bike with an OSPW system, but I'd lose that gain thinking that I spent over £400 on a set!!! Marketing is a powerful thing.
Great video! I would like to see a similar video talking about aero frames and their real gains.
Exellent content, keep it up!
Alex you nailed it mate, I always wondered why team sky never used them 😂 Thanks for saving me 500 big ones, I’ll spend them on some Chinees carbon deepset wheels instead 🙏🙏🙏👍👍👍👍
Great and thorough review ! Suggestion, you might consider adjusting lighting (crosslight from below), color(orange) and contrast (high).
Thanks, great video, great info!
I've never used an oversized pulley wheel system, but they look big. Are they so big that they require a longer chain? If so, that would add a tiny bit of weight.
Not surprising. He also never mentioned weight savings from the rider's billfold being so much lighter.
haha!
Was also wondering about the aerodynamics. Gains didn't seem sgnificant enough so I didn't get them,
Isn't that area most likely turbulent air though, since it's at the back of the bike? wonder if there's any difference in aerodynamics
I remember simillar questions on the length cable from frame to the derailleur...
Aerodynamics is a very tricky thing, cant be sure unless you windtunnel test it for that particular bike/set-up
Ceramic balls are 60% lighter than steel balls in bearings but two more chain links may be required so as to nullify that weight savings.
But ceramic bearings can use much lower viscosity oil vs grease or no lubricant at all for a race.
But the larger derailleur size creates more air resistance especially at higher speeds.
what if you replace the stock pulley with the exact same size CS pulleys?
Great video Alex - thought provoking as always - Now back in UK after working ( and a fair bit of riding ) years in Dubai - Have a TT bike with Ultegra set up and a road bike with Dura Ace CS (the 19 tooth model) - TT bike CS BB and when chain block etc are all cleaned and using the CS lube it spun......................still spinning ......................still.................and stop - seriously there is was a noticeable loss of drag if I spin the crank backwards = less effort - how much not idea but in my first ever TT I placed on podium and my power was up 20 watts the previous week on the non CS setup - did I but new ? No would I ? No do I regret ? No
TT bikes with minimal shifts no problems. - road bikes however - no quite a happy - missed shifts - sloppy feel (on DI2???) - looks great - works not so much - now back in UK and have hills to deal with again I see the road bike ospw days will be numbered - in fact I am off out in a few mins for a quick tester taster
I live in the mountains and I need fast accurate shifting on 11-32 cassette maybe even under load. My stock dura ace 9100 is the best I have used on the road.
Great science on the OSPW system. I've looked at your other videos FFT and I have not seen any that speak to insoles for cycling shoes. How about on with market leading insole mark Solestar vs other "name brand" insole maker vs stock insole. Thinking there might be some marginal gains to talk about here with insole selection.
Basically they look fancy, about as technically effective as a fancy pant job 😁
😂😂😂😂👍🏿
They actually look ugly as f**k 😂
I wanted to upgrade one of these. Asked my mechanic first, he said wtf for? Ride more and ride with faster riders. That's the way to get better.
If it comes with enough (average) Con we must surely see it as standard equipment?
Yeah, marketing is powerful, especially if you don't investigate first ...
Luckily, I was going to up grade to that system in the rear but glad I didn't!! Very happy using my stock R8000 & Dura ace 9000...
Is your friction assignment based upon measurements with riders on bike with turbulent air downstream of a riders leg or merely a hypothetical assumption for the purpose of your calculation?
I've just returned to cycling after a 'gap' of 30 years. I am shocked by two things: [a] the price of new bikes and components and [b] the plethora of B.S. relating to 'advanced' cycling technologies. Of course, vendors use [b] to increase [a]. As pointed out in a previous comment, if you keep your head down, elbows in, jersey zipped up you will save more watts than you can buy for a $1000.
As you I returned also, but I came from Triathlon.... At "my time" there were really revolutionary things like Greg Lemond introduced the Tri bars to the cyclists.... Now they try to sell us all kind of stuff for a lot of money, but the gains are quiet small.... As a successful 24h rider I keep one thing from Eddy Mercx in mind: don't buy upgrades, ride upgrades! Not that I am closed to good material like fast tires or helmet, but at the end the rider makes the difference.....
"if you keep your head down, elbows in, jersey zipped up you will save more watts if you can afford and want to?
If you've already done all that, then why not go after something else that helps, even if it is expensive
Some technology is good even if $$$$$. Its not all as absurd as these things. Do you need it? (Useful technology that is, like carbon wheels, electronic shifting etc) Depends on what you do on a bike and your disposable income.
I am the same. Toooooo much marketing. I ride a Gravel bike, which was the MTB of my time with flat bars then. Everything is extra sensitive but it's "lighter" , first time I broke a chain, and I over maintain my chain now!!! Didn't know what proper maintenance was back then. Just punctures 😂
@@stuartdryer4089 Then how come you don't see Bike messengers riding Dogma F12, S-Works Tarmac SL7, Madone SLR 9, etc.??
Thanks fore revealing the sad truth! I have got the one you were holding, probably won't be taking it off as I'm a weekend warrior and a fair weather rider, so not at all competitive. It's a great convo starter I must say haha
haha, well its doesnt do much harm either I guess!
@@Fastfitnesstips That should be their product's SLOGAN
What if I use the ceramicspeed standard sized pulley wheels on my standard derailleur then what benifits would I get? would I be better off with the OSPW instead?
Taj Misquitta you will drop your chain and damage your bike. Your shifting will be terrible because the space of the derailer is not big enough to accommodate bigger pulleys.
@@davidstrong7854 Oh no I don't mean using OSPW pulley wheels on a standard sized derailleur. CeramicSpeed also makes regular sized pulley wheels for Sram, Shimano and Campagnolo standard sized derailleur cages. So what I'm saying is there is no change to my derailleur just the bearings in the pulley wheels. So what I'm asking is, do I have a better advantage using a standard derailleur with improved bearings (CeramicSpeed) in them over the Ceramicspeed OSPW system (Derailleur cage).
Good question although the issue then becomes which is better ceramic bearings or steel ones despite the brand . The standard size set that Ceramic Speed offers is still overpriced for said benefits . Stick with what you got and spend your money upgrading the lube in your bearings , a few vids here on the Tube concerning this subject ..
We know OSPW don't do anything for reducing friction, but they do look awesome lol! Maybe the joy from customizing bikes should be considered here? I don't have one yet, but am thinking of getting a less expensive one from another company.
I can do 5 upgrades for the cost of a ceramic speed OSPW. Lol
As always thoroughly enjoy your analysis. Especially as I debate about whether the reason I want (insert new fad/sexy part here) is because I want to go faster, or I just want something new and shiny, and am thus, more susceptible to marketing "gloss". Thanks.
I used a generic one and it appears they comprise shift quality a little bit.
These things seem to be more of a status symbol for superbikes, £500 will be me 100 sessions on a Wattbike (which is well over a full 6 month winter period) which will make me much faster than any claims about more efficient chain lines and ceramic bearings!
Ceramic Speed OSPW is $649+ 😳
Do the pros have them?
If OSPW was adding time and watts you know Ineos would be using it. Considering they are using Muc Off treated chains, Lightweight wheels, and custom molded aero bars. Thanks for the info.
also they would be using disc brakes only bikes
There Shimano sponsored
Couldn’t find a video from you on ceramic bottom brackets compared to Dura Ace. Would there be one very soon? :D Thank you coach
Not specifically, but we did make a calculator which will feature in the future video : fft.tips/drivetrain and it has been extensively tested as follows: average frictional losses of the ceramic bottom brackets vs steel is 0.4w and top quality ceramic vs top quality steel is 0.03w (see www.hawk-racing.com/independent-bottom-bracket-efficiency-study/)
WELL I WONDERED IF IT WAS A SNAKE OIL PITCH OR NOT and you gave us the answer SAFE YOUR MONEY!!
You didn't clarify the point about correct spring tension ...should it be more or less than the OE cage to get a benefit ?
The lower the cage tension tension then the lower drivetrain friction but be careful about chain drop on bumpy ground. Stock derailleurs create 10-15N of tension but OSPW often half this. See my test of tension in the video....this is roughly how to test it yourself.
@@Fastfitnesstips Thanks, I added a KCNC 14/16t cage which had a few tension options . I tried to match thev OE cage but realistically I was just guessing. I thought tension would only have an effect on gear changing , I hadn't considered drivechain friction .... is the tension test in the original video ?
I imagine if your a spinner vs. grinder will have some effect on the watts?
We are working on a whole video on the influence of cadence on performance (and a new optimal cadence calculator)
Like others, keen to know where the sweet spot in pulley size lays? If oversize is worse did companies just happen on the right size
Hi Nick, you can try and tweak the gains in your drivetrain using fft.tips/drivetrain (including pulley size and bearing quality) (but always bear in mind the losses too
Boom, marketing BS crushed!
Thanks for this.
Yeah, they look mint tho! I want some gold coloured knock offs to go with my gold chain.
I am sure this has been said before but if what Ceramic Speed offers in performance versus price then I would expect to see their system on every bike in the Tour especially when marginal gains count , unless the UCI has outlawed it . Their waxed chains are good but not their idea . In conclusion stick with what the majority of pros use , the jockey wheels that came with the derailleur and wax your own chain ..
I think the major problem with your calculation is assuming 0.8 aero watt loss. I would imagine it to be less than that. The correct way to do this test is calculating the Cd in a velodrome for different speeds - and then you will have the total savings in a flat course which you'll be able to adjust to gradient with the knowladge of the weight.
ok here is a quick back of the envelope calculation. We previously showed that 10cm of 4mm (area 400mm2) exposed cable costs about 1w (czcams.com/video/fbM4fEIu8YY/video.html
) now using calipers a small OSPW is 30mm extra long and 16mm in width (frontal area= 480mm2)...so very roughly thats 480/400 x 1 = 1.2w; a large OSPW as shown in this video was 63mm longer (frontal area = 1008mm2) = 2.52w losses...but we could take off 1/3 of this number because of position in 'dirty air' and 1/3 because you are only in a small gear sometimes meaning the OSPW is most exposed (so that's 2.52/3 = 0.8w)
This man‘s analysis is about as believable as is the claims Ceramic Speed makes.
I see, so you think the actual aero drag lies somewhere in between my claim of 0.8w and their claim 0.0w...ie 0.4w? ok try that figure in the calculator.
FastFitnessTips: Cycling Science! I have seen several of your videos and find the topics you address very interesting. As an engineer myself, and an experienced rider, I have seen videos of yours that I completely agree with, and some that I think are working under false assumptions. I have never used and OSPW by any company. That the larger form factor might create additional drag is just logical (although it might have a better aerodynamic shape), I can only guess these things. However, saying a better coated, larger pulley wheel has „maybe .1 of a watt of savings“ in it, is difficult to believe. Probably very difficult to measure, too. Using larger sprockets and larger chain rings has worked for me in time trials. Cross chaining is certainly a factor, but moving from 50 front 14 back to 54 front and 15 back has given me quite an edge in time trials, that are usually decided by seconds or even less. Therefore, I did not see any convincing evidence, that larger pulley wheels might not generate a similar effect.
PS.: the effect I am referring to is clearly over your claimed .1 watts.
@@LarsRR OK, I follow you, you are talking about the magnitude of saving of a larger pulley wheel gains. So we already know the magnitude of larger cassette and chainring gains, it averages around 0.5w per tooth (see www.cyclingabout.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1x-vs-2x-Drivetrain-Efficiency-Chart.jpg) but most of this is due to chainline improvement so gains by pulley size are much less (just look in the middle of the chart....going across the middle of the cassette 21-23-25 saves almost nothing unless you are in the inner ring). So what about the jockey wheels which don't have chainline issues .....Discounting bearing gains, then I will say when we modelled this more accurately we found jockey pulley size saves about 0.2w-0.3w per tooth (you can find this model at fft.tips/drivetrain) not 0.1w so you might be partially correct in your comment.
I once asked my Mechanical engineer friend and cyclist regarding about me upgrading into ceramic speed pulley and to my surprise he laughed so hard and called me an "IDIOT" then proceeded to explain that why would I go for total stupid when all the pulley wheels does is just feed your "loose" chain back to the "tension zone" Don't you wonder why shimano engineers and Sram engineers don't bother making such ceramic bullshits in your pulleys? because they know it won't help in power transfer!!!! A regular pulley even below the line of sram and shimano groupset can do the job!
So how about if i get china made OSPW, only for 30Usd$, its worth for upgrading my R7000 pulley wheels.?
Your aero estimate was massively subjective. How did you get to 0.8w?
wizardzx2 everything about this guy is guesswork
@@patrickkelly8864 Is that a guess...about our guesswork?
@Wizardzx2 czcams.com/video/9IZPvSe1RRE/video.html&t=80 (go to 80seconds)
FastFitnessTips: Cycling Science! Hang on, you’ve already contradicted yourself by stating that the OSPW is in dirty air being shielded by the cranks etc and yet you’re calculating the CdA change as if it was up front in free flow?????
@@TheGinger1 What is your estimate of aero drag?
This a good example of a Placebo Effect. In your mind there’s a marginal gains benefit. So you feel better and ride faster. To justify the cost of an expensive OSPW upgrade.
You don't get into the dirt... open cage bearings start picking up grit and grinding up the races pretty durn quick. Those marginal gains from the bearings are going to turn into losses unless you keep changing the $$$ bearings regularly.
Good point.
How about the Aero OSPW?
I'm sure those OSPW's are not worth their money. But I doubt those 0.8W aero losses. If you put the cages in a wind tunnel alone you will find that difference (at least!), but on the bike they are in dirty air, behind the crank/chainring and in the turbulences from the leg as well as from the rear wheel, so I believe it doesn't matter what cage is mounted. In any case, where you put your drinking straw and what shape it has makes much more of a difference than those 500-1400€ OSPW's - marketing hype...
fiddler on the bike they are also shielded by the chain.
Hmmm... I can see an engineering opportunity here. I'll probably buy the cheapest OSPW and design an el cheapo 3d printed aero fairing for it similar to Fabian Cancellara's 2010 Shiv. I reckon we could shave half of the drag just by rounding the leading edge and turning it into a truncated airfoil.
I think it’s better just to upgrade your derailleurs like I’m thinking of doing. Ultegra R8000 to Dura ace 9100. I’m sure there’s more gains there than sticking an OSPW on my Ultegra.
On an mtb my xtr is fine. Stock size but ceramic bearings as is off the box.
I agree with everything but seriously not sure about 0.8w in drag.
czcams.com/video/9IZPvSe1RRE/video.html&t=80
If I don't eat the pizza and drink beer tonight I'll be .8 watts faster tomorrow and it will cost $20 less than if I do!
Yes but you will be sad.
Interesting. Please take this concept further to compare sram axs to shimano, short vs medium vs long cage derailiers.
I am even thinking about marginal gains like riding in a larger rear cog at higher cadence vs smaller cog at lower cadence at the same bike speed. Thinking about drivetrain losses, and differences in aero of the extended derailier
I’m surprised CeramicSpeed hasn’t threatened legal action against FfT. 🙊
Great to know that oversized is just marketing hype. I would expect the weight penalty to be worse than what you calculated Alex. 2 links would be on the low side I would reckon. 2 larger pulley wheels as well as the extra derailleur distance could see you needing more than 2.
I agree , but look cool😄
I don't think it causes significant aero drag if not nothing, but on the other hand the watt gain is also unsignificant, it's probably unexistent, so if you buy it for watts don't
LOL i wrote comment under GCN chanel video yesterday. About why i dont see on 1-6 TdF stages OSPW systems. And today you download this video. So, 2019 is ending of OSPW marketing. And what about ceramic bearings in wheelsets? Its a same effect?Sorry for my English skills)
ceramic wheel bearings? again depends on your comparison set but check out road.cc/content/feature/175644-ceramic-bearings-pros-and-cons and www.kogel.cc/blogs/kbba/problems-with-ceramic-bearings-part-2
@@Fastfitnesstips Thank you.
FastFitnessTips: Cycling Science! Between FFT and a few other sites, it is an easy decision to stick with higher quality steel bearings and not bother with anything that less than the best of ceramic bearings which are really pricey.
ceramic meansh nothing... good steal bearings are better. Look at hambinis yt channel.
@@raphaeltiziani7476 I watch this czcams.com/video/2iTEetRGmpg/video.html
And i see test new vs old bearing. I saw video from russian automachanic how he test 6-8 lubricants for steel bearing and the difference was like day and night. Sorry for my English.
If you're climbing, though, an OSPW lets you have a 32 on the rear instead of a 28 . That's an advantage for your knees and cadence.
Get a Medium Cage derailer arm Problem sorted. Just saved you £400
Hello fft, you have made so many bike calculators, can you document links to all of them from one place? I think some of them might actually be useful 😂 nah great vid👊
Haha, that's why we invite you to join twitter (70% of calculators), strava (80% of calculators) or patreon (90%). For example: www.strava.com/clubs/278084/posts/5607850
Hey science guy. Bearings are under compression not tension.
I think he is talking about the tension of the chain going around the pulley.
@@gregorychapla6086 Later on yes, but language was unclear early at like 2:30. He probably just misspoke. You're allowed to do that when you put our 15 videos a week.
I asked the bike sales person in our local bike shop about this, and his response was, don’t buy that it’s a waste of $$.
To many assumptions.The loss of a free running system with standard and oversized jocky pulleys can easily be measured and becouse it is on the unloaded side of the chain the difference in losses should stay the same in a loaded drivetrain.This is my conclusion as a engineer (although not mecanical) unless I miss something.The reduced loss is thus easy to measure.The bigger jockey wheels will influance the effective cage lenth as the distace between the top and bottom of the deraileor that the chain will see willchange slightly so ideally the cage should be shotened slightly to compensate.Aerodynamic drag can also be measured.Weather the relative small saveing is cost effective is another matter but as long as we dont go overboard there is definitive saveings to be had.
This is my situation, bought a SRAM Red groupset for my SHIV, they rear derailleur would stutter then be fine for miles, then stutter for a quarter mile. Couldn't adjust it out of the stock jockey wheels. CeramicSpeed can be adjusted 3 ways, now my spring loaded aero shifters bang it into gear so precisely makes shifting fun. It's killed my desire to go to an electronic shifter, saving me money there. It feels faster on the rigid frame SHIV, put one on my road bike with a CeramicSpeed chain and noticed no difference in racing a crit. But, the bike does shift more precisely for a mechanical Dura Ace setup which is on my road bike, I'm happy and no longer have a desire to go electronic on it, so I feel I'm breaking even in the long run. Any gain is marginal, and if you've read this far, you know it's the sum of all the marginal gains that make the difference. To notice the difference, all I have to do is get on a bike without the improvements, then get back on mine, and I notice all the little things that make riding it so much fun.
no, eletronic shifting is the way to go
Hey thank you for sharing ^_^ love all this inputs
OSPW systems switch up your gear ratios, allowing you to travel at the same speed with less power. Hence, you are able to use those watts for increased speed. Increased speed has the greatest drag factor above anything else. So in reality, there is a penalty with OSPW, but it is too marginal to affect your gains within the reflection of speed. FYI I'm saving about 20 watts with my 14/12 tooth OSPW.
Wat
How would that switch your gear ratios???
It seems you're giving advice based on an aero penalty that you just made up. How is that any different than what you claim Ceramic Speed does?
czcams.com/video/9IZPvSe1RRE/video.html&t=80
OSPW is something you want to believe is better and marketing is taking advantage of that. $500 is a ridiculous price.
Perhaps the reason why they need to price it that high...is to make it more trustworthy?
@Ben Seibel, overpriced.
There i can find pdf which was in video
How many minutes in? / Timestamp?
@@Fastfitnesstips I already found it, it was small video in left angle
@@Fastfitnesstips 1:30-2:37
If feels like an upgrade for
Me.
So if you had a smaller hanger, more aero and less weight..., it would be a winner ?
Go produce !!!
I upgraded my tt bike with sram rad 11speed to a OSPW from Ceramicspeed an I tested it 5 times on a 20km flat course pushing 350 Watts an averageing 48km/h and in average I was 2 seconds faster☝️🤷♂️
You tested 5 times with and without the OSPW in randomised order? If so that's commitment!
2 seconds faster Lol 😂
Just get some Tacx Ceramic T4065 pulley wheels and install them on an aero rear derailleur such as a short cage Shimano Sante or Ultegra RD-6400. If 10 speed is required then an RD-6600, which can be purchased for about £35 has huge aero savings over an SRAM AXS rear derailleur, which is a big and heavy expensive (£1000) lump by comparison. To improve drive train efficiency I use a 55,42 front chain ring and a CS-6600 15-25 cassette. I also use Sugru moulded fairings on my brake/gear cables as internally routed cables are rather pointless.
I think you forgot the chain will be longer and heavier.
About the aero drag, as the pulley is taller the chain will have more frontal area.
I've made custom upgrade to cheap Shimano Altus shifter derailleur where custom gears was laser cut and mounted on ceramic hybrid bearings shown here: Shimano Altus 13T-15T derailleur shifter custom gears ceramic bearings test: czcams.com/video/-4PL01w2Mvs/video.html and it cost me around $10 including laser cut of those gears and cheap ceramic hybrid bearings.
Imagine paying that much and feeling absolutely no difference?
I am not very fast on the bike. I would only purchase one because in my eye it is a bit more beautifulthan the small ones. And when we look at our bike estheticaly it makes the ride a little bit enjoyable I think. All of these data makes sense to me, but I am not one who wants to gain every possible second. I just enjoy riding my bike :)
Buyer beware the fitting of OSPW system will void your warranty with Sram even if it has nothing to do with the fault.
I wonder, why is this chase of weight, watt and cedence? Leave it to people into competitions. For most public Walmart bike is enough and value for money.
I was thinking of putting this on my bike for being bling bling reason only. I gained massive bling poor bank account 😆.
Hard to accept your aero loss figure. The derailler sits right in the disturbed air flow behind the pedals. Even shoe size will effect the interaction between derailler and air flow.
We all need an aerodynamic housing around our CeramicSpeed pulley wheels with aero dimples on it ... problem solved :-)
Why can’t people just train harder?
I buy ospw just for the bling
Excellent content but why don't you get more views? Not scientific but maybe a lot of 'serious' amateurs are just too busy working overtime to pay for OSPWs and the like?
People don't really watch science nerdy stuff, only the usual crap
but it looks nice on the bike...
Air will be far too turbulent
But man, they look great. As long as they don't make me slower, who cares? 🤷♂️
Your entire argument is based on the aerodynamic drag, which the figure you totally made up. The amount of cost of the jockey wheels IMO cannot be anywhere near .8 of a watt, surface area alone wouldn’t equal that if it were placed on the top of your head. Besides the fact jockey wheels are relatively close to the wheel which are already creating their own turbulent air. If the size of the cage was such a huge aerodynamic loss I think we would see far bigger market for more aerodynamically shaped cages.
With that being said, $ per watt saved (for a ceramic speed ocjw) simply isn’t even close, it’d be cheaper to just lose 2 pounds off yourself then spend $500 on those.
idc what the science says, im so much faster with my absolute black osp it just looks too damn cool
Where does the .8 watts in aero drag come from? This is the real crux of the entire video I feel and was just thrown out as “let’s just say...”. If there has been aero testing to ascertain .8 watts then the video can go from theory to proof. (Brought up starting at 5:00 minute mark) I have no vested interest or bias, just seeking truth and putting this subject to rest. Until then, the jury is out imo
UPDATE: So over this last week, I had a kogel ceramic bottom bracket put on the Argon18 nitrogen disc and road bike, and yanked out the shimano bottom bracket. Just as with the pulley, I felt an instant improvement with first pedal. My speed, power, and climbing watts have increased. This is not some imaginary psych. Influence that all of a sudden has me riding better on the bike. The Kogel OSCP and BB have made the already rigid Aero bike feel stronger and smoother. The best way I can explain the feeling to you would be this....an outdoor bike on roughly paved street now feels like a high quality indoor trainer while being ridden on that same roughly paved street. I can feel the power to the wheel transfer way better. I am bringing the Bottom Bracket here to the topic of ceramic OSCPs because the same argument applies as with the pulley, which is "does it make a difference". In the case here, science is used, respectively. However, my physical body work using these bike products vs. The scientific studies based on numbers or wind tunnels is NOT pointing towards science as the correct answer for actual riding improvements for a cyclist using these items, even though the scientific numbers and testing might be/is accurate for the given items. I agree that these parts can be costly, and I cannot speak for the ceramic speed items, but I can say that if they are built as well as these Kogel items seem to be, they are well worth the cost because my cycling experience is much more enjoyable. Nothing is free.
Facts don't care about your feelings. Make some data or at least try to be less objective. Your entire post is basically just "I know it works"
@@skoparweaver7692 let me see if i can put it in a way that you might be able to comprehend...that "data" that has already been done scientifically, that I said might be accuracte/ correct, is not correct, coming from someone who wasn't too cheap to purchase those items and actually has those items on his bike, from his experience. Just because there is data on paper about an item, it does not mean that the item doesn't work as well as the data might suggest, because in this case, the data can't measure ones muscle reaction to that item. That's the facts.
Here's what I can tell you about my experience from an oversized kogel pulley.... I am a new, heavy rider having difficulty climbing. I did a final test climbing a specific hill with my ultegra setup before having the oversized pulley put on. On that hill, I could only make it up on the biggest cassette gear. I then put the new pulley on and not only went up the same hill on the 5th gear down, but couldn't believe it, so I did the hill again right after the first try, (which in itself is amazing) and this time I went up on the 6th gear down from the top. Broke my record on strava. Doesn't it make sense to say that if the pulley helped me to do this going up a hill that I was having problems with, that when putting power on the pedals in Any riding situation, that you are going to have a better cycling experience? Forget the science, it works just like the carbon wheels do what they are supposed to. I think it is funny that people gripe about spending $500 on the pulley, but yet spend $13,000 on their bike. Don't be cheap, you only have to buy it once for the bike. Oh, and it looks great!
Nice account; I am wondering if this could be a placebo effect (which can be powerful)? Asking for a friend ;) Also "you only have to buy it once" IF it lasts forever.
@@Fastfitnesstips but, isn't it true that a stock pulley system needs to be maintenanced as well? A quality one will last longer, right? ......"placebo effect"......are you suggesting that because I spent good money on a pulley system, that after it was put on the cycle......a hill- that I could only go up in the easiest gear possible, MONTHS AND THE DAY BEFORE the pulley was put on.....all of a sudden, I can drop down to the middle of the cassette AND go up the hill better and faster the very next day, 2x back to back, to where I break my record without that being a goal in mind....only happened because mentally I told myself that "I have a new pulley system that I spent good money on, I am going to make it work better than my stock pulley", and in turn, told my physical body, "today, the day after, even though I could only make it up the hill in the easiest gear yesterday and the months before without killing myself, today, I am going to make my body push harder, and be able to drop down to the 5th and 6th sprocket and go faster up the hill than ever before? Now, think about for a minuite. Oh, and you can tell your friend that I weigh close to 300 pounds! Maybe your science is correct about watts when you want aerodynamics to kick in. The funny thing is, every time I see a video on these pulleys, there is no scientific study done on what the thing does for you going UP the hill! (However, in fairness, you did mention it could help up hill in the video). This would be a good test video....have someone who is new to riding and has a hard time climbing, go up a steep hill as fast as they can, time and meet them at the top. Have them rest up for 2 days. DON'T tell them why.....next, put the oversized pulleys on and give them the same cycle and do the speed test up hill again. Make sure that they eat and wake up, and go up the hill again under the same weather conditions and same time of day as the first run, and when they are done, tell them what the test was when meeting them at he top of the hill. Do this with at least 3 people, and I'll bet you they say that the pulley is worth buying, forget about aerodynamics downhill, which, by the way, hasn't hurt my speed at all.
I've worked with GC riders++.
Priorities for performance gains:
- diet and bodyfat %
- hydration
- sleep
- stress mgt which includes no. of hours one can devote to cycling each week
- biomechanical/musculoskeletal assessment, bike fit, and flexibility training for better aerodynamic positioning
- medical history and assessment (stress ecg, hormone profiling, spine imaging)
- progressive power meter training
- bike maintenance (waxed chain, cassette/chain/chainring set up and matched wear)
- lighter rims, narrower rims and tires, 23mm are lighter and more aero
What most deluded cyclists prioritize:
- a bike under 7kg (when they are carrying 5+kg excess fat, much of it blocking arteries)
- frame and wheel aerodynamic gains (when a lower back angle will reduce drag 500+% more so)
- coffee
- cool kit
Of the above, the most important criteria for performance is optimal nutrition and bodyfat %. Without this, you will compromise more performance inputs than any other factor.
Fortunately though, 99.5% of humans eat for hedonic pleasure, and not performance.....so it is easy to get a competitive edge on opponents.
It doesn't mean that Ceramicspeed doesn't provide data about aerodynamic loss that you should be confident in the conclusions that result from your assumption of an aerodynamic loss of 0.8W. You put way too much emphasis on your conclusions without reminding people that they are based on assumptions with a lot of uncertainty. Ceramicspeed = 0W as the video image is clickbait of the worst kind. Note that I am not a proponent of Ceramicspeed and I have not purchased a Ceramicspeed product.
Hi Cedric thanks for watching the video. Ceramicspeed isnt in the cover image. However 0w is a reality in some situations. So its clickbait of the second worst kind....the kind thatis totally true....but not for everyone.
What aero drag lol, there is chain rotation, ffs...
Not exactly scientific by just guestimating aero drag
A big component, that you try cover up with the section about the uphill part being 31seconds slower, to your argument was in the aero argument yet you have no real world or even wind tunnel data
I mean that's fine, I think you made your point and I understand it
But a lot of commenters on here are taking this as exact science and saying "take the ceramic speed" and going away think oh I'll never buy this because I lose this hypothetical time
But look tbh, most people watching this video would most likely see no difference in actual performance out on the road, most people don't race and if they do not professionally
So yeah I guess pointless video them??? Lol idk but still if you are gonna claim "scientific" at least do videos on things you can test and debunk
I'd be a hateful little troll too if I had spent £500 on a small piece of exorbitantly overpriced carbon garbage.
you look like talk to cctv
Sorry I have never seen talk to cctv
WTF is that!