SINGLE VS DUAL PLANE, WHICH ONE IS BEST? SMALL BLOCK FORD INTAKE SHOOTOUT? 4 INTAKES-FULL RESULTS
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2023
- HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT FORD INTAKE. WHAT IS THE BEST INTAKE FOR MY 289 OR 302 (5.0L) FORD? WHAT INTAKE IS BEST? IS A DUAL PLANE BETTER THAN A SINGLE PLANE INTAKE? WHICH INTAKE MAKES THE MOST POWER? WHICH INTAKE MAKES THE MOST TORQUE? WHICH INTAKE OFFERS THE BEST FUEL MILEAGE? HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT INTAKE. CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WHERE I COMPARED FOUR DIFFERENT CARBURETED INTAKES ON A MODIFIED 302 FORD. EQUIPPED WITH A SET OF AFR 185 HEADS, COMP 274 CAM AND HEADERS, I RAN A PERFORMER 289, A PERFORMER RPM, A TORKER 2 AND VIC JR. INTAKE TO COMPARE THE POWER CURVES OFFERED BY THE FOUR DIFFERENT MANIFOLDS. PICK YOUR POWER!
- Auta a dopravní prostředky
Thank you for sbf content
We put an RPM on my sons F250 w/351W, everyone told us were crazy, that it would lose all kinds of low end vs the standard Performer. Nice to see proof of what I already suspected!
Hard to find Torker II dyno tests, thanks for doing this!
Have to say I'm impressed with how well the 289 did compared to the RPM, especially considering the latter can support 500 hp.
I know it didn't get tested, but it feels like on this combination an RPM air gap would be the clear choice. The regular RPM was only down 7HP at peak to the victor jr, I'll take the extra power in the midrange. I'll go out on a limb and say that the RPM most likely made the best average power too.
The air gaps do work very well with throttle body FI but are very cold blooded with a carb, I have 4 of them sitting in my garage from different engines that I have changed out for friends because of stumbling, hesitation and driveability issues. I believe you could tune out those problems but the people that I changed them out for want simplicity, that's why they stick with carbs and not so perfect mixtures and tuning. I'm an F.I. guy and I understand their point but it's something to consider for a street engine.
@@hardball107 I run a wiend stealth port matched to some AFR renegade 185. It's a tall dual plane that can handle RPM up to 6500 but isn't a true air gap so it does a little better in the cold. I like it, but I've never owned an air gap so can't compare.
Victor needs more cam and compression in this case. I bet with a solid roller profile and about 11 to 1 or more able to take the edge
The RPM Air Gap acts too large for a stock stroke 5.0. The Weiand Stealth actually beats the RPM and the RPM Air Gap everywhere on a Ford 5.0. The old Weiand low rise two plane beats the Performer 289, but Weiand has replaced it with a not very good imported intake. The Weiand X-CELerator beats the Torker II. This doesn't hold true on the 350 Chevy, but it sure does on the Ford 5.0.
It would be interesting to see how the air gap would compare
AG. Over rated. You can take any intake and make it an air gap.
@jesse75 lol no. The air gap has air under the runners for a cooler charge. The cut out in the separator is not the "air gap"
It's the old story, the dual plane will be better in traffic but inferior when you're having a real go. Low end torque is good for towing, not for traction. Have a look where your rpm's are when you're going through the gears at WOT, it's single plane territory. You can't have everything in an NA application.😉
Thank you as always Richard 🇺🇲
Another great video, Thanks Richard
Nice fair comparison Richard.
Thanks for sharing.
One thing you didn't touch on is the cold bloodedness of the air gap manifolds. Maybe you don't experience it in warmer climes but here in upstate NY during the summer nights can be in the 40*-50* range and we rarely hit air temps in the 90's. The air gaps do work very well with throttle body FI but are very cold blooded with a carb, I have 4 of them sitting in my garage from different engines that I have changed out for friends because of stumbling, hesitation and driveability issues. I believe you could tune out those problems but the people that I changed them out for want simplicity, that's why they stick with carbs and not so perfect mixtures and tuning. I'm an F.I. guy and I understand their point but it's something to consider for a street engine.
Hood height (or lack of it) is a real bitch. I don't have a Fox body so I don't know how much underhood space there is to work with but I have an '86 Firebird and it is TIGHT under a stock steel hood. Can't see how I can go beyond a regular Performer. Looking at that Victor Jr, it is a great design no doubt but it needs some serious space, especially if you're running it with a proper filter assembly.
Kudos to the Torker for doing better than I expected. Might be good if you're running a nitrous plate to keep everything under the hood. No shortage of space on the dyno, huh?
Love the SBF stuff!
The key to that whole combo is the AFR heads.
I have boiled it down over recent years (for 1205 gasket) to performer rpm unless you are running nitrous then I choose the victor jr. If I am really running a 7000+ sbc I am stepping up to a bigger/better single plane anyway.
Richard you read my mind!! About to do a carb swap on my 91 Mustang and was wondering this exact question!!
Great info thanks for sharing
I would have to assume there is another video coming with the higher tier intakes like air gap, stealth, AFR renegade ect... Please 🙏
@@BuzzLOLOL we have to wait 11 months to buy the sky ram again. Lol lol
Nice info Richard. Thank-you. With 302 cubes to work with, I prefer the most tourque asap for a street car.
Good stuff kid'o
I had to use the old performer for the hood issues. I didn't have a cam so it works out okay with the 1850 model Holley. Miles away from the 2bl. I would guess I gained about 30 hp which is pretty big considering I was probably making about 150 before
Richard would love to see this comparison on 347 engine with newer afr renagade heads
Great video Rich but you already know anything we port would come our on top lol. We make dual planes produce power like single planes and single planes make power like nobody's business lol.
happy to test, but a dual plane doesn't make the power curve of a single plane-but you guys already know that
@@richardholdener1727 a modified high rise dual plane intake with a balanced average runner flow over 320cfm with the divider milled 1/2" down with a 1" open spacer will go past 7,000rpm easily and support just as much power as a out the box Victor or tfs R single plane manifold but make more low end torque. We have had many customers wanting their low end torque back but not lose the power up top so that's the combo we go with. Most of the time in that switch over they just have to step up in carb size but it works.
Send us some Intakes and test motor build sheet and we will be happy to shock you lol
I'd like to see the holley sniper carburetor intake vs rpm air gap on sbf
Try an Xcellerator intake from Weiand. . It is an old intake but it works with a 302. I picked up 3 tenths in the quarter. My cam is an N41 Anderson unit.
Be nice to see the comparison between the victor jr and the Parker funnel web and the TFS and the ford Motorsport!!!!
Will need to test a 1 1/2" open spacer on all of them and see how each one of them behave with that extra volume
Had you added a 1 inch spacer to the RPM it would have made at least as much power as the Victor Jr.
RPM Airgap with a 1 inch open spacer for the WIN !
🎉 Woohoo 🎉
1000th to Like ⭐
that's a lot a likes
I had a very similar combo, using the Lunati Voodoo cam, and a Holley Sniper EFI...the RPM intake has fuel distribution issues with the Sniper, and kept fouling a couple of cylinders, BUT it all went away with the Victor Jr...both setups has big street performance for a measly 306 CI
Apparently, the Sniper's internal MAP sensor reads from only one side of the dual plane - only 4 of the 8 cylinders. It needs to "see" both sides of the manifold to run properly. Milling the divider a little seems to solve the problem.
Usually I am trying to kill low end torque from 377, 383, 406......on the street. At most I am running a 275 radial tire......and usually something in the 255 or 265 realm.
Very surprising to see the similarities between the Victor Jr and the Torker II in this application
Would have been nice to have the air gap duel plane in this test.
If you do this with a Windsor, I have a Buddy Barr you can test.
I always like seeing contalent that is not just showing peak power but also gives info on the drivability of different combinations. Most of my daily driving, I don't get past 4k rpm, so making power in the area that I am driving is more interesting to me.
And conversely on my road course track day 306 rarely sees below 4k while on track. And this here is why we have options. You need one style, I need another.
@Chest Rockwell exactly, I also love information for my racecars, but it's just nice to see good quality comparison content. Not just the usual "your cars not fast unless it makes 4 digit power..." that seems to clutter a lot of my feed at least.
@@fiend_metal Big power is a relatively low cost game these days thanks to much better OEM platforms and cheap turbos so everybody has got be a 1k hero. Most people can't even fully use 400-500 hp, but those numbers sound "weak". Not to me, I'd rather ring the neck of a 300 hp well balanced car all day than to be nursing around so much power something will break, overheat, no traction and so on.
@@chestrockwell8328 yeah, I race in a off road race series, and it's always a blast to make my little Impreza use every last one of its 80 whp... I now have 2 points championships in that class, even competing against other people driving v8 jeeps or WRX's.
@@fiend_metal Right on buddy, nice work being successful with a "lessor" machine.
I wish you would have had a original Torker to compare to the T2.
Probably getting rare aren't they? Maybe not. I ran a torker on a 76 Mustang and the T2 on an 83 Capri.
@@keithwiebe1787 what was your opinion between the two? I think the T2 offers better hood clearance(?)
@@mickangio16 They were on different builds so don't really know. I did have to drastically change the jetting (actually drilled out the power valve jets) for better fuel flow at full throttle yet maintained fuel economy with the T2 running stock holley carb. Aftermarket holley carb probably running way rich anyway though. By the looks of all the dyno runs should have run a dual plane but we didn't know any different.
A great comparison Richard, thank you! What would say, how would the Air Gap change the curves over the tested RPM?
not sure
Are the port dimensions the same at the head flange?
Really begs to have the air gap in the show. Clearly torque for the street, and sometimes for the strip too. Good real world comparison!
Great comparison. Do you recall what the jet combos were for dual and single plane?
I built up a 302 in my 83 Capri and put on 351 W heads and mild cam, headers with the T2 years ago and used the stock Holley carb. Had to drastically change jetting at full throttle but part time throttle didn't need to change much. Don't remember the difference but it would fall flat with stock jetting. Now, 30 years late with these dyno charts I should have kept a dual plane. We were told years ago that single plane intakes were the way to go.
Enough with the comments on the AG already.
Young people hung up on it.
This is a comparison.
Minus the AG.
what is AG?
@@richardholdener1727 Air Gap.
👍
Would be really curious how a ported "Performer" would work with AFR 185 heads on a 347. 650 Holley. Mild but not factory cam. Hood clearance is extremely tight and completely prevents the use of a higher rise intake. Far from ideal, but a reality nonetheless! Cheers
ported performer should do better than stock performer
Good to know how much torque and horse power you loose with a single until you get up in the rpm and alot of engines can't support higher rpm anyway 🤷
*lose
Whats a good lower intake manifold for a very mild 65 mustang 289 with just exhaust, mild cam, and possible 4 barrel carb upgrade to complement a lower intake uograde. Just looking to build a very mild cruiser with a little more oomph.
rpm or air gap
@richardholdener1727 thanks for the reply sir! Love the channel.
I actually have an SBC. A 350 Vortec to be exact, but I think my question is pertinent to all intake manifolds. Does using a carburetor gasket, or spacer with one large hole, negate the use of a dual plane intake? Thanks?
it does not
Love the correlating figures.. For street/ strip these are good performers.. What about low end torque on a Bronco?
same
@@richardholdener1727 thank you!!
I have a question. I'm looking at tunnel rams for a small block Mopar. I found several different brands. But some have a single carb set up. Some have dual. I can't find a comparison anywhere. Which is best? Or would I offset the single by adding a larger carburetor? If you haven't done a comparison?! That would be cool. Weiand vs Edelbrock vs Offenhauser etc.
dual quad would be better
Richard, how would the edelbrock ford efi intakes compare to the carbed intakes? Performer, performer rpm, and torquer intakes.
perf rpm would be better than RPM 2 EFI
Good stuff, Richard! Would the results - dual vs single plane - be much different if we substituted a throttle body injection (eg, Sniper) in place of the carb? That is, how much of the difference in torque curve is due to runner length and cross-section, and how much is due to vacuum signal and atomisation? Thanks.
it won't change the curves
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks a million! You just put to bed a controversy that has been raging on the forums for years. Much appreciated.
I'd like to see the victor jr vs victor jr EFI the one that's the same thing but outfitted with injectors and fuel rail, is the powerband going to be about the same but with improved drivability? It's prob out there but overall which makes more peak power the carb style EFI intake or the factory style EFI? If I'm not mistaken they make a victor 5.0 factory style EFI manifold. Or even a victor jr vs a high ram same jist, I would think the carb style intake would make more but I have no reason to think that just a guess. Weingarner does not like the new Holley low profile open plenum EFI intake, he said it's basically a worst of both worlds, Typical poor low rpm TQ open plenum chachteristics but poor high rpm capabilities. If you hate TQ and you hate high rpm HP it's perfect! I just scored an old 701R-36/300-36 sbc Holley contender for $75, hope it's what I'm thinking it is which is kind of like an old Z28 intake the OG performer rpm style intake, either way it looks cool.
same power band-slightly less power with port EFI
Just tossing this out there hoping for some input. I'm going to try an experiment using the Holley/Ford 2V carbs from the mid '70's 2.3 mounted on a mid '80's lower f.i. intake to make an inline 4V. Should I mill the dividers between the runners or even chamfer them?
you can make a box but keep the run length
@@richardholdener1727 thank you, sir, for the reply. Any other pointers?
Offenhouser 360 degree equa flow
Which one will work better with boost?
boost just adds to what is there
Have you tested a funnel web?
many times-those vids are up
@@richardholdener1727 ok
🇺🇸💪🏼
Have you ever tested any of the air gap clones? I'm wondering how much power you give up running one? The prices are very attractive, i know you get what you pay for, but.....
lots of them work well
Dual plane all the way
Didn't engine masters do an episode on this a few years ago
there will be a difference between the rpm and air gap-even if just from the milled divider
Hi
what brand of pistons are those?
probe if I recall
The single plane is the way to go I'd rather have the torque than a little bit of horsepower
you mean dual plane then
@@richardholdener1727 young people. He's probably infatuated with the Air Gap like the rest.
@@jesse75 & spacers- with no consideration for hood clearance. What good is the ultimate power intake manifold & spacer combination if you're gonna suffocate it with an insufficient air cleaner? THAT would be some good testing- a less than optimum low profile induction system but with a free breathing 14" air filter unit compared to tall race type intake with a cramped and dropped base air cleaner and especially when the carburetor is equipped with a choke tower. Which?
Can you shed light on explorer 5.0 mods please.
same as 5.0l Mustang engine mods
9:09 Am I misunderstanding something? Instead of making each manifold show a different color line for the same function, both manifolds show red for HP and both show blue for torque.
different colors is not an option using their software
@@richardholdener1727 Perhaps you can put a little paper arrow on the screen pointing to the line for one particular combo. Since they are the same color and sometimes cross each other one or more times it is really hard to get a feeling for the results just at a glance.
No air gap dual plain?
not on this test
Would’ve been nice to see a parker funnel web in there.
couple vids up on those intakes
Why only Eddy's?
Anything on Efi?
lots
@@richardholdener1727 manifold shootouts?
I think I still have a Torker II. I thought it was made by why-and… it has the twisted carb flange. Prob worse than the torquer run here. Even less downward draft…
a twisted carb flange should not be a torker 2
@@richardholdener1727 it’s been so long since I’ve seen it. It def has the twist but I don’t remember what it is, I been calling it a torker II forever :p it looks like it’s from the 60’s I will send a pic next time if it didn’t get sold at the last swap meet.
Edelbrock Torker 289 (about 1976)
Wich 1 is better depends on Cam n head piston design there's no 1 better .. have to match cam...😅😅😅
there is no cam that will make a single plane do what a dual plane does
What would be best for daily driver? Ha ha Does the single plane make more power from idle to 2500? Almost looks like it but the graph starts late in the range
wot at idle?
@@richardholdener1727 "getting out of your own way"
.
Be much better of u ran them across the full rev range .. how much extra torque is there at 2000 .. we will never know .. believe it or not some people like me use these 302s in heavy auto trans vehicles with stock stalls
show me a video with you running at WOT at 2000 rpm please
So basically I just watched a Edelbrock commercial plus every video I've seen of this guy it's just him sitting in an office with a Dyno chart up on the screen cuz he actually do any actual testing
WHO DO YOU THINK DID ALL THIS DYNO TESTING FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS?
@@richardholdener1727
Do you really build engines?
@@RadRidesByCru
LOL
Not a ford guy but gotta know if people are full of shit.
Personally I blame squirrels............