Why You Can Legally Steal From a Sinking Ship
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- čas přidán 27. 04. 2023
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Now, I just need to find a place where sinking a ship is legal.
Probably somalia is your best bet
Everything is legal if you don't get caught 😅
It's legal everywhere as long as you make it look like an accident.
Anything is legal for you if you can make it look like someone else did it.
Russia
Somalia
Venezuela
North Korea
Eritrea
Iran
~10 years ago while sailing in the Caribbean early one morning we came across a 32ft center console power boat drifting straight towards a bunch of rocks with no one onboard. We boarded the vessel and towed it to a nearby port where we were requested by the police to tow it to the next harbor. During that transit time the police had tracked down the owner and confirmed that someone had attempted to steal the boat overnight and when they couldn't start the engines they left it drifting. The police asked us if we intended to file a pure salvage claim as it would be 100% in our rights to do so, but informed us that to collect on it would require going to court and may take months or years before the money was awarded. Given the good weather and minimal risk and cost to ourselves (only cost us half a day of vacation), we estimated that we would not get much more than $3-4k in the end. The owner offered to put up a $500 tab at the bar and restaurant we were planning to go to that evening which worked out to a $100 tab for each of us and we happily accepted feeling it was a good enough value on top of the great story and fun memories of the event.
When we got to the restaurant that afternoon the staff were very curious why a local had given a bunch of sailors on vacation from the US a $500 tab, when we told them the story and told them that whatever was left on the tab that night they could keep as the tip, they declared that we were eating and drinking for free the whole night and gave us anything we wanted (and pocketed a nice $500 tip for themselves in the process). Needless to say the next morning was "rough", and I heard that someone had a security camera that allowed them to catch whomever tried to steal the boat, so it worked out well for everyone.
Now that sounds like a helluva vacation!
Except the thief.
You got a good night out, the owner got their boat back, the bar got a good tip, and the thief got caught. In the words of the poet O'Shea Jackson Sr, it was a good day.
great addition to the vid. cheers !
@@petergerdes1094 he got caught, so it worked out well! (ok maybe he thinks differently, but everyone else is happy with the outcome)...
As a mariner this is fairly well explained. In fact most ships carry on the bridge a template contract for "pure salvage" called Lloyds Open Form, which has massive letters on the front cover "NO CURE, NO PAY". Lloyds Open Form is so standard that even oral agreement to terms and conditions of LOF is enough to stand in court as legal agreement.
What is no cure no pay?
@@Speedster___ Something covered in this very video.
@@Speedster___ it means salvor get paid based on results and not efforts
Damn, maritime law is such a rabbit hole of interesting facts...
Lloyds, so old and essential to shipping there is literally a flag code for "Please report my location to Lloyd's of London" (ZD2).
Just wanted to clarify that the criteria of "voulentary" applies to both parties. You cannot just tow a random ship into port during a storm and claim salvage, if the ship didn't agree to it. Even if the ship was in actual peril, and you succeded in doing it.
The ship must provide informed, uncoerced consent.
- Hey guys, u look like u are sinking, maybe u need help?
- U just want to claim our cargo, f*** off
- Hey guys, u look like u are sinking, maybe u need help?
- U just want to claim our cargo, f*** off
- Hey guys, u look like u are sinking, maybe u need help?
- U just want to claim our cargo, f*** off
- Hey guys, u look like u are sinking, maybe u need help?
- U just want to claim our cargo, f*** off
you missed some of the more fun elements. Rules for shares of the prize can apply. The owner of the ship is entitled to the bulk of the money, but the captain gets the most shares of the remaining amount on down do the lowest sailor who gets a single share. The captain can award additional shares for gallantry if a crew member did something above and beyond that put their life at risk to cause the rescue to succeed. There was a supertanker in the mid Atlantic that caught fire and a Canadian supply ship came to its rescue. It pick up the crew in the water and then used its helicopter to land firefighting crews put out the blaze and then attached a tow line. They started taking it back to Ireland. Along the way they they were ordered back to Canada so they signed a contract with a tugboat company to transport their prize back to Ireland. They ended up being screwed by the tugboat and the vessel owner who cut a sidebar deal at a lower rate and the Canadian government didn't pursue it. They gave the sailors a bit of cash and said it was done. The Captain quit the navy and sued. His settlement was covered by an NDA...
Right on ! :D Seems like that is one of the most binding international laws lol. Even above rules of war !
I just make my crew walk the plank if they question their share of the booty. 🦜
Do you know the name of either vessel involved?
@@Laotzu.Goldbug is was either HMCS Preserver, Provider or Protector. Not sure which one. I do not know the name of the tanker.
In Brazil we have a similar rule about lost property. If you come across some valuable thing you cannot just take it for yourself but you can return it the original owner in which case you would be entitled to a fraction of the value of the thing and the costs of preserving the thing until the owner picks it up.
I don't recall any headlines of this being an issue probably because most lost stuff is either too cheap for a lawsuit to be worth it or the owner just offers to pay out of gratitude (this seems to be more common with emotional stuff like heirlooms and pets).
In Germany, we also have this and call it "Finderlohn" which means "finders wage". It is 5% for goods under 500€ and 3% for everything above.
We have a similar system here called "Your wallet was empty when I found it. But hey, at least you have your cards back."
I found your dog, can you give me one of its ears?
We have this in Switzerland as well.
I am entitled to a percentage of your dog ! *Chops off two limbs from the puppy*
A few years ago we broke down with our crappy little 25hp outboard engine on an inflatable boat maybe 1 mile off the coast of croatia. So we yelled at some other guy nearby with a similar setup if he could drag us home which he ofc did. So yeah pretty similar story, but I'm grateful he didn't demand our toolbox and 2 sandwiches afterwards.
Damn! I'd be sad if I lost such a fortune like that too!
You better knock on wood, because there’s no expiration date! Hell be at your door in a couple weeks here! Hell he’ll take that too!
Now I need to figure out how to sink ships…
No...
Yes.....
Bot
a well placed torpedo has been known to do the trick
loose lips might...
There was an incident several years ago in the UK where a lot of cargo containers fell off a ship and washed up on a beach. Locals then "salvaged" the contents of many of these containers. In the end I do believe under UK maritime law it was considered "pure salvage" and those who had taken goods from these containers were entitled to a salvage fee of around 10% of the value of the goods. Which was a nice little bonus for a few lucky beachcombers who had managed to get something valuable out of a container.
was that the one with people driving away on the BMW motorbikes they'd salvaged?
@@spookydirt Someone managed to get some quad bikes I believe.
Important to remember that you need to register your claim with the insurance company of the ship.
I remember that!
@@trollolol705 With salvage contracts you'd price in the cost of recovery, with pure salvage if it's not worth recovering it doesn't get recovered. In this case since the costs were only the time of a few beachcombers, the salvage fee is generally worth it.
Now you just need to do a video explaining the legal differences between flotsam, jetsam, lagan and derelict cargo.
Flotsam = cargo washed overboard "floats" away.
Jetsam = Cargo intentionally thrown overboard (jettisoned) by the crew to lighten the boat
Not sure about derelict cargo, but I know the other three. Flotsam fell off the boat, jetsam was thrown off the boat, and lagan is stuff thrown or fallen off the boat that’s on the sea floor.
@@ferretyluv derelict is cargo where there's no reasonable expectation of being able to recover it.
As an Italian American, I endorse the boat-driving joke. I'd note that Christopher Columbus was an Italian, but that really only helps your case.
Maybe he had the good sense to not actually do the driving at least
Check it out, guys! It's-a India!
"As an Italian American", so... an American
@@zaphod4245 you don’t understand how immigration works?
@@michaelvick2872 it is not that, the joke was on "italian american" something that an american has on OCD on specifying both countries. italians would just say italian or american.
It also works for airplanes. In 1983 a fighter jet from the RAF got lost and landed on a container vessel. The crew of the vessel was awarded 570 000 British pounds.
That must have been a long container ship if a fighter jet could use it as a landing strip.
@@ferretyluv Could've been a Harrier.
@@johnadler6987 I was thinking of that as I was writing, but were those out in 83?
@@ferretyluv I believe so, yes. (at least a quick google search seems to say yes?)
@@ferretyluv yes, they were introduced in the late 60s and continued serving until the early 2000s (in some cases)
Ah, I see Ben's working through the list of rejected Crime Spree laws again.
Edit: in my defense, I said this before I finished watching it, and did not expect the Crime Spree reference at the end.
Nah that’s Adam
hey i remember you from hermitcraft recap
@@romangiertych5198 Admittedly I never watch the credits but does Sam ever write anything?
@@romangiertych5198 Yes, I know he should be the main (sole?) scriptwriter at Wendover but I curious if he ever wrote any episodes for HAI. Maybe at the very beginning.
"It's legitimate salvage!" is the maritime version of "I'm a legitimate businessman!"
Accidental “The Expanse” reference?
@@SuprSBG Not intended but fully endorsed, The Expanse is a great series
Sam I loved the video! rarely does admiralty law get enough love. Two things I wanted to add. First marine peril does not have to be actual. Marine peril can just be the apprehension of peril, like in Markakis v. SS Volendam. This cases had a disabled cruise ship being towed in reasonably calm water to avoid shallow water and the Cuban navy. Second, the 6.4 million was not the final number. That was what the trial court ruled, later that number got reduced on appeal to 4.125 due to a whole re-evaluation of the rocket. see Margate Shipping Co. v. MV J.A. Orgeron. Keep making great videos!
Correction, it is _Volendam,_ not _Voldendam_ (which, on a side note, is not not be confused with the Dutch ocean liner from the 1920s of the same name).
How do I know? Because I googled the case to find out what it was about with the Cuban Navy. And congratulations, you just casually referenced a case that seems so obscure, the only results that came back are the Google Scholar reproductions of the actual court documents. I'm impressed.
me on my way to be a legal pirate
okay jack sparrow
Keep careful as the coast guard can still blast you out of the ocean.
Also checkout the epic how to be a pirate
"I believe you mean privateer"
This is very cool, Sam. Thank you for the legal advice.
“At sea there is no such thing as weird behavior”
"It's okay if it's underway"
Below 40 degrees south there is no law; below 50 degrees south there is no god.
My dad and my uncle did this many years ago. A pleasure craft had torn the moorings in a heavy wind, and they went out in a boat and towed it in. They got a certain percentage of the pleasure crafts value. The owner was quite angry to have to pay that, but otherwise the boat might have ended up in some rocks somewhere so that's real peril.
States in the great lakes area have similar laws for salvaging. Usually someone drives their vehicle over an ice covered body of water. The vehicle, shanty, falls through and the owner has 3 days to get the item out and face fines for pollution depending on what fell through the ice. Usually after 3 days the item is available for anyone to salvage and keep as their own even without a title.
But as long as you’re not the one that caused said ship to sink, right?
Yes chief
_Right?_
as long as they can't PROVE you're the one who caused said ship to sink
@@chwriter7138 *Hey Ferb, I know what we're gonna do today*
The law only apply if they're fast enough to witness you do it
It triggered me that it was referred to as a weird old law because we have a similar rule in the law here in Germany: Anyone who conducts the business of another without authorization to protect their rights has a claim against them.
Through this video, I did some research and found out that such a law exists only in some legal systems.
“At sea, there’s no such thing as weird behavior” sums up a ton of maritime traditions, laws and outfits.
An answer to the question "What would happen if we let an Italian drive a boat?"
Cue flashback to the first Punic War.
A man of culture I see.
Even the more Romaboo channels I follow all go "yeah the Romans couldn't sail for shit"
Remember that one Italian guy who landed on the wrong continent thinking it was India... who was it...?
When I was studying marine engineer, we were taugh some maritime law and case history too. One in particular involved a crew abandoning ship due to some issue (I think a storm?) And once the storm subsided they saw the ship was still okay. So they went back on and claimed it as salvage.
This it well explained. I occasionally have to go over this with smaller boats and paid salvage/tow boats. The in danger part is always the sticking point. Someone broken down is not in danger-but some “salvage” boats will try to tell them that darkness automatically means danger.
Some jurisdictions have a restriction on open salvage of derelict vessels. In Canadian waters if you get an abandoned vessel into safety so it is not a hazard to the environment or navigation you are limited to getting your costs incurred back. The "derelict fleets" dotting many waterways would be easy to clear out with this, drag them to a shipyard and get them hauled out and stored on the yard, the fuel costs for the tow, the haulout cost and storage costs ( ever increasing storage costs so it needs to be resolved quickly ) are the recoverables. If it sits on the yard long enough complete title is granted as it's value is the same or less than your expenses.
Check your local laws for things like that, you can get rid of those falling apart boats anchored in a lot of areas if they have similar regs.
I haven't been following it, but I read a while ago that the firm that unblocked the Seuez canal after the ever given famously blocked it also did so without a contract and it seemed they were going to claim part of the value of the cargo. Don't know whether they ended up doing so tho.
My husband is big on history and piracy in general. He has a Jolly Roger tattoo for crying out loud. Any time I think he’s underhanded in a game or something he just smiles and goes, “Pirate.”
This video is going to make his day. 😂
has he heard ye banished privateers?
czcams.com/video/AnVKiWE2ka8/video.html
1:39 Wonderful.
There's another weird maritime law: Back in the early 2000's, there was a ship anchored in Table Bay off Cape Town South Africa. A heavy wind came up, and Port Control radioed the ship to warn them that they are dragging their anchors. The captain of the ship's response was "Don't tell me my job, I'm far too clever!" And so it came to pass that the massive ship beached itself and the captain packed his back and got a cab to the airport and sayonara'ed outta there. So now there was a massive containership on the beach, and nobody wanted to foot the bill to yank it off. The owners were some US corporation, and I'm not sure what the story with the insurers was. There was hazardous cargo which included explosives, low-pressure gas and corrosive acids, antimony and uranium ore. And so the ball was kicked around between various government departments, and authorities and nothing happened. At this point, the cargo was still on it, and since it was a huge ship there were a lot of people who had cargo on the ship and they were all begging anybody who would listen to please tow the ship off the beach. Eventually some of the cargo was magic'ed off the ship (not an easy job due to location or whatever) and the fuel oil was pumped out. So there was a huge bill for cleanup and unloading the cargo and cutting up the ship because it was on that beach where everybody takes the pics of Table Mountain from when they need to prove to Facebook that they were in Cape Town. So who's gonna pay? So high powered lawyers get involved, probably funded by the insurers, and they dredge up an ancient maritime law that says everybody who owns cargo on the ship is responsible. Say what? So a whole bunch of Capetonians and companies and such got a bill and had to pay. How about flogging the victims? I can't find confirmation that the cargo owners were stuck with the bill, but that was definitely what I remember. Check it out - Sealand Express.
pretty sure that everyone got had stuff on the evergiven also had to pay part of the cost of that desaster as well due to some kind of similiar law
@@kaimuller169 Yeah, it's nuts. The captain was warned, he screwed up and hit the airport so fast it made your head spin.
Your videos have so much more personality, great content as always :)
Please write out 100 times, "Salvage is not theft."
Like many things in life, consent is important.
It seems like maritime salvage laws fulfil the same function as squatter's rights laws - it encourages messy situations to be cleaned up. Salvage provides an incentive to rid the ocean of abandoned ships, squatter's rights provides an incentive to rid the land of abandoned dwellings.
Friend of mine got salvage money after a group of kids rescuing an sailboat who was adrift and was close to running aground.
They towed it to an marina. Some there called insurance companies. Think he got around $3K back in the 80's so serious money for an kid.
1:45 "We do not endorse the previous joke. Half as Interesting supports all Italians"
Surprisingly concise and well written. Just finish my law report on salvage. Maybe you can talk about maritime lien as well
Lloyd’s Open Form hasn’t been no cure no pay since like the 80s. Every LOF has the SCOPIC added since then. It’s not a “it sometimes happens”. Now every contract has the SCOPIC for pollution remediation. You can also have a Wreck Hire, Wreck Fixed, lumpsum, daily hire, time & materials, and other contract types.
Actually the helmsman of Costa Concordia was a an Indonesian migrant who had lied about his qualifications. The Italian Captain was not at the wheel.
2:40 Byzantine playing some Civ 5 I see
"we just let the pirate steal it since they were going to anyways"
The fake brick advertisement at 5:57 is why I keep watching this show. Long live the bricks!
Philippines had close to 2000 cargo ships beached during the Odette typhoon. more than 900 spilled oil within a week. was one of the biggest maritime oil spills in South East Asia last Dec 2022
“Ferb, I know what we’re gonna do today!”
I've done this! We were sailing in the caribbean and found a dinghy floating at sea. I grabbed the painter, tied it on, and we let local SAR and the owners know. At the next port we met up with the owner's representative, who called the cops on us, claiming that we were stealing their dinghy and/or trying to extort them. The cops didn't believe them, we returned the dinghy, and I believe the salvage case is still working through the courts
If you win do you get the dinghy?
@@Krisjoverovovejovovichtski No, we get a fraction of its value; I'm hoping maybe 10%
This is a complex issue. It depends on the maritime area it sinks. In the US, we have local state waters, federal waters, and international waters. You have to be certain of which salvage lawset you are under when you salvage the ship.
Did the crew get the money or the owner if the ship?
Here's one for the annual "mistakes we've made" episodes, and yeah I'm gonna be that guy :
0:11 is that really how you spell "Posiedon"?
this has got to be on the 2023 mistake compilation xD
He managed to misspell both Poseidon and Orgeron.
imagine you save a ship and they say gj buddy, but you were also on our ship that was about to kill you too, so because you saved yourself we wont reward you
I love how you went from a video about pillaging straight in to "half as interestings crime spree" 😂😂😂
So i just need to legally sink a sheep now, hmmm that's a little too easy
Hehe. PosIEdon. Time to update that mistake list
EDIT: 0:12
Also: 0:12 J. A. Oregeron, 3:04 J. A. Orgeron
Dunno which is correct but at least one of them is wrong.
The most unusual salvage claim I know of was in WWII when a merchant vessel was attacked and a fire got out of control, so the captain gave the order to abandon ship. After a few days in life boats some of the crew sighted the ship which was still afloat and the fires had burned themselves out. They eventually were able to claim salvage as the captain was not part of the salvage efforts, there was a legitimate reason to abandon ship and they had obeyed orders when abandoning ship.
Does the money go to the company that owns the ship involved in the salvage, or does it go to the captain and the crew involved?
Where's Legal Eagle when we need him?
I don't think he specializes in maritime law.
No one ever needs Legal Eagle, he's a hack.
does that sum go to the operating company or split between the actual individuals which undertook the risk
This not only applies to ocean going vessels but if Sea Tow or the others get your boat hooked up for any reason you are paying them and it can be up to 800 bucks.
It's hardly obscure, it's been the mainstream rule of abandoned stuff floating at sea since forever. Enshrining it in law was just recognising that very little could stop fishermen stealing abandoned stuff in the mdidle of nowhere with no witnesses and finding a way to tax it.
yeah, this law simply encourages people to report their findings rather than stripping them for everything of value and scuttling the rest that cant be resold without documentation like hull resgestration, etc.
Time to become a superhero who sinks ships and then rescues them right afterwards
I have the perfect place for you...go to ukraine
-Purposefully sink ship containing Arizona Green Teas
-Loot all the Arizona Green Teas
-???
-Drink the sweet nectar of the gods until diabeetus has it's way with you
So, if I was on one of those casinos they float on the Mississippi river to get around gambling laws and somehow it mysteriously catches on fire or starts to sink, would I be able to grab whatever I wanted, bounce, then keep whatever I grabbed once I'm off?
So, whats a cargo ship if it is not a bulk carrier, a container ship, or a barge, since those are separate items on that chart?
And what's a Ro-ro ship??
🎶 Yourrrrr’e a crook Captain Hook
Judge won’t you throw the book
At the Piiiirate... 🎶
Great video THank you
1:42 There goes the Italy season of JetLag 🤣
Lol I wouldnt call it too obscure, at least within the maritime field. I had test questions about pure salvage on my Chief Mate exams I took last week. I also know a guy who is captain of a salvage ship, that industry is very much alive today.
well time to try this now
Question: was the amount awarded to the boat that helped the other boats by a court given to the company that owned the boat or to the employees who worked at the boat to help the boat in danger? Like, in those cases, is the sum awarded to the people who literally helped, or to the company that employs the people who literally helped?
In the future you might be able to salvage a Martian Naval ship as legitimate salvage.
@0:50 StarSector Admirals represent!
Now I need a video on how the crew didn't get any of the payout on how the form that owned the tanker got all the money.
Because you know that's what happened.
Now I just need to figure out how to legally sink a ship
Random thing to learn on a Friday morning, but kinda interesting. Like not fully interesting like a video about bricks would be, maybe.. half as interesting. 😊
Finally a new career prospect
hi sam!! love ur vids!!!
3:51 I want to see this as an scp now 🤣
That Italian joke fell flat because…well Venice. Now if you said let an Italian drive a ship without using a stick
"O the lovely Athens queen"
I fully expected a comment about the average flight speed of an unladen swallow at some point, but despite that disappointment (such is life), full marks. Well done.
SAM YOU DIDNT DESERVE THE SEASON 8 WIN
Is the money awarded to the crew as private individuals, or the company they work for, or the company that owns the ship they're on?
I’d heard of this but never knew all the details. Somebody called it “pirate law” but didn’t know all the details
"no such thing as weird behaviour" at sea really explains ben and adam's cream trip...
This is so reminiscent of South Park's
"It was coming right for us!"
Justification.
A worthy point about the Costa Concordia is that it's salvage was an economic loss. Nobody would have voluntarily salvaged it in exchange for even 100% of the value, as the salvage costs were greater than the damaged ship was worth. Would have been cheaper to just leave it there. But the Italian government ordered the owners to pay up to get it removed, and stipulated that it had to be re-floated and dragged off in one piece rather than scrapped in situ.
really funny story behind that Costa Concordia, i really recommend watching Internet Historian's video on it
I want a reddit AMA with the folks on the oil tanker who got the salvage money.
In one of the books that make up the Swallows and Amazons series. The children meet a man who had been a boat owner and lost his boat because of salvagers claiming his boat was adrift. Don't ever let anyone on to your boat with a tow rope no matter how friendly they appear when they offer to help you. He offered them some money as a thank you, but they said no, we want one third of the value of your boat. He had to sell his boat to pay them
Main thing keeping me off nebula is the lack of a TV app. Hate watching content while sitting on my desk
I hate the lack of ability to create playlists and the fact that I can't just listen to audio without the miniplayer on iOS (and everytime I close phone to just listen I have to hit play again)
Doesn’t the law of salvage have 2 additional elements: 1) the vessel must be on the high seas and 2) it must be abandoned by its crew? I’m not sure if both of those elements were also present. There is a duty an every mariner to assist those in peril to the best of their abilities dating back to the Rolls of Oléron of the 13th Century. I’m not saying that the assisting vessel didn’t otherwise meet the criteria for salvage but they would’ve had to assist the tugboat in peril.
3:00 There wouldn't be any space ship juice on board. The tanks were fueled just before launch - therefore the tanks were empty.
Anybody who is even slightly aware of marine commerce knows about this!
The salvor, in this case risked his ship to save the barge and tug.
And by the way, saved NASA the cost of a replacement fuel tank!
This is the Law of the Sea, and the idea is not to keep the cargo and ship from pirates, but to prevent a total loss of said ship and cargo!
There was a fun salvage case in the 60s when a USAF B-52 carrying nuclear weapons crashed off the coast of Spain. A local fisherman found one of the bombs and asked for a modest 1% finder's fee--on a $2 billion value. (They settled out of court for probably a lot less and supposedly never paid up. I don't know for certain, but I wonder if one of the counterarguments was "you know what, keep it, it's yours... which makes you a nuclear armed non-state actor. best of luck with that.")
Well a sociopathy diagnosis not a psychopathy diagnosis, at least till direct harm to others are considered.
1:19
Wow! those numbers are terrifying. All those losses in just 10 'modern' years. 72 passenger ships ..WTF?
The salvage tanker crew started a casino in international waters...
Or so I'd like to think...
Or found a small island nation, bought out the politicians and made it a utopia
I suggest we don't give people that already seem detached from existence some assumptions that someone can sink a ship and plunder it
Pelican Soup. I'm dieing 😂😂
PELLICAN SOUP!
So are the pelicans
Guess Sam read the book “In Peril” and it gave him the idea to make this video about the situation lol
Wow, very cool.
Maritime law is so weird, and so interesting.
Maritime law is so weird because it evolved over centuries with lots of legal systems involved.