The whole “curt not wanting his information out on the newly formed internet” and “owen thinking that if everyone’s information was out then no one would care he was gay” will be a headcanon I will scream into the void until I die
Silvana Ltd. I get what you mean. I made an animatic of the coldest goodbye reprise and could barely get through editing without stopping to cry every two minutes.
“The last few scenes are where it comes together,” no it does not All come together. My heart is in pieces. Everywhere. Like a glass window being jumped through
Yeah a lot of the stuff I read for research for this was really rough. It's wild that our own government did stuff like that not that long ago. It shows you just how far we've come with LGBTQ rights recently. Sadly there's still a lot of places where that's not the case though.
"When you make stories about LGTB characters set in the past, the history is already baked into the narrative." That is an amazing quote! This was a VERY enjoyable education. Thanks!!!
One thing I found funny when watching the first episode for the first time was that I could immediately tell he was gay. It was an immediate obvious thing in my head. But I fully thought that I'd be tricked out of having a homosexual character by him finding Tatiana. I'm so glad that didn't happen. I just wish we could have seen more of Owen and curt's relationship.
I actually knew that he was gay before I knew pretty much anything else about it because people were commenting "what about Curt and Owen" a lot on my Starkid Pride video, but I didn't know how far it went. I watched it with my mom to see how early she picked up on it and she got it fairly quickly. It could have easily be left in subtext, but I'm glad it wasn't!
If Tin Can Bros ever made a movie adaptation of this musical, I think one of the things they could do is more hints of Owen and Curt’s relationship, not in a flashback or anything like that, but through DMA’s character
tbh i wouldn't turn down the bi rep if they kept owen/curt as explicit as it is, but i am glad i went into it knowing they wouldn't just queerbait it. was still surprised by how explicit they did make it tho lol
Jesus christ, I did not expect it to go t h I s d e e p. Also, the part where she says "has a double meaning? I don't know," killed me, I was laughing for a solid 2 minutes.
Haha I'm glad you laughed at that! I'm always worried about how my jokes will land in videos lol. Thanks so much for watching. I love going in depth with stuff like this!
@@applepatronum4934 Tatiana is referring to his beard literally but it could also be a beard like the term for a girlfriend he would have to hide his sexuality
this is on a somewhat unrelated note but the Deadliest Man Alive and Owen are the only characters with an English accent; so that alludes to the real identity of the Deadliest Man Alive before the reveal even occurs just something that I’ve picked up on that I wanted to share if someone has also thought about that or someone may not have noticed that at first
I want to add on by saying that I noticed that Owen is left handed, maybe because Joey is(???). This is shown when he tickles Curt with the feather in the beginning and the hand he holds his gun in. When Joe as the DMA punched Mega in 'Torture Tango', it was with his left hand. It's such a small detail, but so amazing to me.
I feel like listening to the soundtrack first almost spoiled it for me bc when DMA is introduced he sounded so much like Owen in my mind that I knew before I really knew
When Joey's character was making out with Susan then realised he was a man he says "my career, my children!", just something I picked up after watching this. I'd no idea the exact extent of the discrimination, nor even heard about the Lavender Scare, so it was really interesting re-watching Spies with the exact context in mind, thanks :)
In the intelligence community, a partner would be someone of your own agency, that you always work closely with. It is clear that Kurt and Owen worked for different agencies, and simply wouldn’t be made “partners” in their jobs. Therefor this is semi clearly stating that yes they had a romantic relationship!
As soon as you said "His journey started not by, say, the death of a sexy lady but by the death of his male partner" my brain immediately linked back to Steve then you showed him and I started cracking up
at 12:22 ish i NEVER picked up on why he neglects to say “i’m gay” and instead says she’s “not his type”, it would make so much sense if the word gay has such a horrible rep. PLUS he looks so happy when she says “til the end” GOD he was probably terrified to even hint at it
Yeah he probably never actually "came out" to someone like that. Also i think the word gay was only just starting to be used in that context in the 60s so he probably would have said homosexual or queer which had a lot more negative connotations even back then.
Silvana Ltd. which only drives it home further when she barely hesitates before accepting him it also follows with her backstory of abandoning the KGB i think considering that was one of their ideals
I don't think I can accurately explain just how much I love this video, so I'll just say this: Doing This is my favorite song, too, and I get a lot of flack for that lmao. I'm glad to see someone else who appreciates this song!
Yeah, he was actually in two of the movies that I watched for this video, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, and Another Country, but he wasn't shown in the clip from Another Country.
Silvana Ltd. yeah!!! i was like “oh my god that’s colin!...OH MY GOD THAT’S ANOTHER COLIN FIRTH MOVIE!” ahaha! i am one of the big colin firth fangirls whoops-
The first time I saw the Tortue Tango scene I sat there wondering if there was actually some subtext in the scene or if it was just Joe Walker being Joe walker
Another thing I noticed with the Torture Tango is that Owen is the one torturing him and he says "I've been waiting for this moment for such a long time" he is hurting just as much as Curt and this also adds to the whole revenge factor. Also the line " I probably spent as much time hating you as you did" is sad because he feels betrayed and the creators did such a good job of rounding out the feelings between the two, the ones that were there and the ones that are now there. It's honestly such an amazing show.
Idk if anyone’s pointed this out yet, but the title of the video has a double meaning too, “decoded” as in de-queer coded, which was the purpose and decoded as in spies decoding things, very clever, kudos
Also in addition to being a clever title really good video bro, it was interesting and informative; i didn’t know about the lavender scare and it changed how i saw saf
14:48 I don't know if it was intentional, but "beard" is slang for a closeted gay person's opposite-gender partner, so that could absolutely be a double meaning
You forgot to mention how everything is completely and directly confirmed with the line “It’s never easy to bury your ex lover come back from the dead to kill you...” as I saw a few people who hadn’t gotten through the entire musical and still tried to interpret Curt as straight (i don’t know how). Other than that, wonderful video! Over here in the UK Alan Turing only recently officially got the recognition in the eyes of the government for all he did. It’s so sad that talented wonderful people like him were left jobless and scorned, and in his case, felt there was nothing left for them in this world. When I realised Curt was genuinely gay and it wasn’t just subtext i was so happy. Peace ✌️
Oh yeah thats definitely the most explicit line. I read an old comment once on This Is a Safe Space where someone got really mad at the suggestion that Curt and Owen could be lovers. Some people (straight people) really need to be hit over the head with this kind of stuff which is frustrating. And yeah, i considered talking about Alan Turing but the cambridge spies were more relevant in this case. Its so sad what happened to him but at least his legacy is being recognized more now.
Hi, I'd like to share my thought on your awesome vid! In the scene where Tati told Curt that 'he doesn't have to hide behind a beard to look cool', I feel like they were directly referencing to a term called a 'beard'. Based on what I know, a 'beard' is a person who is pretending to date a homosexual in order to mask their true sexuality. When I saw the scene a second time, I began to think about it a bit more. I think Tati was suggesting that of course, he never actually had to pretend to like her similarly like he did in Doing This. I was thinking that it might be a signal that he can feel safe to be himself around Tati. But anyway, that's just what I think. Nice vid by the way! I loved it!
That's totally what I was thinking. It's a nice little joke, but could also be her validating him saying "hey, you don't have to be anyone but yourself". It's a great line! Thanks so much for watching!
Spies are forever definitely has my favorite starkid/tcb lgbt rep. I love the story and the songs are pretty great too (we love the prince). I like how they use the song doing this as a “romantic” song and they really reference the heteronormativity of that trope and then they don’t do it. I love that Tatiana and Curt were able to have that great friendship you outlined in this video and even though Barb doesn’t completely get it she’s pretty cool too. I enjoyed the part of the video where you looked at Torture Tango because that is a great scene and along with the homoeroticness of that moment you also feel a bit of bitterness that Owen holds for Curt. This was a good video
Torture Tango is so great and really fun to look at from the perspective of knowing it's Owen and not knowing. Like I said, Doing This is my favorite song in the show. I'm down for any song that goes against heteronormativity lol. I didn't talk about Barb much, but one thing I really like is that Curt is kind of a jerk to her cause he's so arrogant (in the beginning) but he's not a misogynist. Like he just make fun of her for being a nerd. She's kind of the Q of the story.
There was a song form the musical that came on my Spotify and I was like??? Wait, are they???? Are they gay??? And I'm glad it wasn't just in my head. And THANK YOU FOR THE EDUCATION ON GAY HISTORY
another moment that could be added to the part around 4:55 is when owen calls curt 'love' -- "pass me one of the charges, Love." could just be a british thing, but it's most definitely a gay thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Considering showing this to my "LGBTQ History through Film" elective tomorrow! We just finished watching SAF (after I wouldn't shut up about it for four weeks) and this video does a great job of providing historical context and highlighting everything I love about this show. Keep up the good work!
i really loved your sondheim video, can you do one about The Guy Who Didn't Like Musicals? or maybe a character analysis? idk i just want smart content on tgwdlm lol
I actually made a video about TGWDLM as a movie czcams.com/video/0fdkCwY1De4/video.html I would love to do another one about a different topic eventually. It's such an interesting show.
I truly loved this musical. Starkid and Tin can bros are really good at representation and dare I say it: saying gay rights. They had a gay relationship as part of the main plot but not making it comedic. Though the whole musical was comedic ish, it was still serious when it came to curts sexuality but it wasn’t made fun of. It was respected and understanding. Truly awesome.
I really hope Joey, Brian, Corey and the rest of the cast and crew see this. What a fantastic video! Your videos are always so amazing and well-researched and well-made. Keep up the great work!
Silvana Ltd. Are you on twitter? Curt engages with fans quite frequently on there and it’d probably be the easiest way to reach any of them. I’m happy to do it if you don’t have twitter but I wouldn’t wanna accidentally steal your credit...
@@aw1379 i am on twitter. I only started using it recently tho. I already tweeted it out to him and the tin can brothers. Im @silvanaltd on twitter feel free to retweet me lol
Silvana Ltd. Will do. Great video, btw, I’m subscribing! One thing I loved about how Curt’s sexuality is presented in the show is that it isn’t essential to the plot but to the character. I mean, some people missed the fact that he’s gay when they first watched it (don’t ask me how). But learning he’s gay recontextualises Act I and explains why Owen’s death messed Curt up so much. (This is also why I think it’s brilliant that it’s only revealed in Act II - harder to enjoy Sergio when you know how much Curt is suffering.) Another thing that fits within your interpretation is that Curt and Owen talk to each other like two straight men might. It could be flirting or cheeky banter, without extra knowledge, you can’t tell. While Curt seems to have picked up other men in the past, I imagine it would be way too dangerous for him or Owen to really participate in gay subculture. So the slang many other gay people would have used among each other just isn’t part of their vocabulary. Or maybe I’m just reading way too much into this show...
I just realized, if the story was written in a way that would completely emulate James Bond, if Curt and Tatiana got together, the Spies Are Forever version of the Bond Girl would be the Mega Girl
A very interesting situation about Spies are forever is also that many of the viewers who picked up on the subtext early in the musical still only realized that Mega is actually a gay character later on because we have been used to so many shows only having subtext and nothing further. I think this is a picture of not only this musical but our time in general. In the past a lot of viewers were so starved for gay content in media that a lot of us accepted that all we got was longing glances and innuendos. We now have more and more shows with actually positive gay representation and quite a few are mainstream shows. But for a lot of us it doesn’t feel as the norm yet and therefore I think a lot of us went through the beginning of the musical thinking it was part of the old formula of gay subtext (possibly also because of the James Bond parallels).
Ahhh, this is such an interesting and well-made video! Even though I obviously knew that being a gay government employee in 1961 would have been a ~very~ dangerous situation, I didn’t know any of the history of the Lavender Scare so I really appreciate being educated on the historical context. I love when people take the time to deep-dive into content that seems silly to a lot of people on the surface, and I especially love it when that content involves one of my favorite musicals, LGBTQ history, and examinations of representation! Thank you for sharing with us!!!
Thanks! I think LGBTQ history is so important and fascinating, but unfortunately we're not really taught it in schools. And of course as a film major diving into media, even if it doesn't seem that deep on first glance is my jam.
Daaang. You didn’t have to go that hard but you DID and I’m so glad you did. This was such an intriguing video. Also, the line “a spy is a spy” kind of hits differently at the end.. Could it be interpreted as the idea that a spy is a spy no matter their sexuality?
@@loglog1954 Thanks so much for subscribing! And I love responding to comments! Trying to do it as much as possible before I get busy with school again.
I found this in a CZcams comment that gave me in a crisis where they mentioned it’s ALSO important to note that since Curt and Owen worked for two different organizations means they most likely wouldn’t have been partners in the professional sense
This is a great video but I just wanted to say that you forgot the great line at the end of the show where Tatiana literally says “ It’s no easy task burying your ex-lover returned from the grave to kill you.” Which really just solidifies the point.
I’ve watched this show so many times, and yet so many of the lyric mirroring you brought up I never noticed (specifically “Your heart, he’ll break” and “You know you broke my heart”). This entire video is very clever, amazing job.
Since Owen worked for England, and Curt worked for America, they would not have been "Partners" in the way that two American spies would be "Partners", which means he never really hid that they dated, it was mostly just misunderstandings from other people. Owen and Curt could not have been work Partners but they were definitely "Partners".
I was texting my friend (who had already seen it) all of my reactions and i find it pretty funny that one of my first texts while watching the first scene was “wait are curt and Owen partners or are they p a r t n e r s” like it was so obvious to me that they were definitely not straight, but I was expecting for them to be left as subtext, cause every other time two characters are clearly gay the writers are like nope no homosexuality here there is no gay in Ba sing se then of course my next texts were all keysmashes when Owen “died”
"Doing this" is such a masterpiece, I love it (And also how can anyone read that scene of the Bond movie as homoerotic, it made me extremely uncomfortable aysudneifndiene)
I watched this with my father recently and was shocked when he didn’t seem to notice the romantic history between Curt and Owen- I sometimes forget that straights don’t automatically scan for queer subtext like we do.
I know this comment is like a year late, but I've kinda noticed another parallel between Curt and Steve with what happens to Owen and Bucky, in that they both 'die' a similar way, only to return a number of years later on the enemy side and trying to kill Curt/Steve. idk Anyway, your videos are pretty cool and its interesting in this one how you compare it to actual attitudes during the cold war.
I just watched Spies Are Forever and now am getting all the good video recs!!! Super great video. Somehow I didn't realize how big a deal it was that the intelligence network would reveal every queer person. I also noticed the whole "partner" thing that many people have commented. I loved the subversion of the Bond girl trope-- in the opening number, the "time to get the girl" obviously seems to reference Bond girls, but then in Cynthia's first scene, she yells at Curt to "go get the girl." This time she means Tatiana, and she means it as in "go get the enemy agent," and I thought that was another really cool subversion where Mega goal is still to "get the girl" but not in a romantic way. Also, the whole "spies, master of disguise" hits harder after watching this video and thinking about the daily disguise Curt, Owen, and other government people would have to do to hide their queerness if they still wanted to work. Thanks for a fantastic video!!
When you were talking about another “definitely straight protagonist” my mind immediately jumped to the scene in The First Avenger, and I was so glad that that was the case.
1. The stairs scene has a lot of clever things on it but the line that stood for me at the time was Curt’s, “Some secrets aren’t yours to share. What about our secret?” At the time, I thought, “Well, duh, it’s the 60s. That kind of bigotry is common at the time.” But you actually manage to put them into historical contexts. Thank you for tickling my history nerd brain. 2. You mentioned how UK had anti-LGBT laws that were bad but not as bad as their American counterparts. When you mentioned how Owen’s plan is basically the prelude to the internet, it reminded me of Alan Turing, the father of the internet itself. In the 40s, when WW2 is at the highest, Alan Turing, a mathematician, was hired by MI6 to break Germany’s code machine. It was estimated that his works shortened the war by two years. Unfortunately, at age 39 he was arrested when it was found out that he was gay. Due to his work, he was offered two options: prison or probation, which involves hormonal treatments. He died of suicide at the age of 41. Anyway, this video is fantastic and you somehow made Spies Are Forever even cooler than before
Yes! Alan Turing is a huge figure in all of this, although preceding the cold war a bit, but so awful that someone who was so integral in the war was treated treated so terribly by his country. Thanks for watching!
Silvana Ltd. hahah i feel that. I’m at a lib arts school I did in fact make a video essay for a class on the magicians and lgbt rep in the show Granted yours is better 😂
Silvana Ltd. international relations To quote spies are forever If it wasn’t for my love of foreign policy and sharpshooter aim I would have been an actor Haha still want to be one tho and doing stuff on the side but yeah 🤷♀️
Lol. I think that happened to a lot of people who watch from recommended cause the title/thumbnail seems pretty normal but then bam...i go right into it. Thanks for watching!
I adore the way they subvert the bond's womanizer trope with Tatiana because they literally make Tatiana and Curt besties! Tatiana as a character feels very lesbian coded, which is really sweet because they genuinely both accept each other! This is a great video essay by the way, i enjoyed watching it!
I keep coming back to this video because I just love SAF so much, and we need more video essays about this amazing show I edited my comment and lost the heart :(
This musical is one of my favorite things and this analysis makes me love it even more but dang it I wish Owen had a redemption arc so my heart wouldn't be shattered from this
2:30 ok so obviously this chart is inaccurate and problematic in so many ways but I'm intrigued by the inclusion of the phrase "homosexuality is contained to some degree in all personalities". Like... idk sounds like something someone who's gay and trying to convince themself otherwise would say... "Yeah no everybody's a little gay it just depends how willing you are to act on them. I'm obviously not at all willing to act on *my* homosexual inclinations. Nope. Don't worry I'm 'normal' haha."
*Spies*
S - _super sexy,_
P - _pretty,_
I - _immensely gay,_
E - _enormously homosexual_
S - _spies_
teacup salamander You can’t spell “Spies” without “Spies”!
@Lochlan Benedict wow, that's great. Answer this, though: 0101010001010100010
The whole “curt not wanting his information out on the newly formed internet” and “owen thinking that if everyone’s information was out then no one would care he was gay” will be a headcanon I will scream into the void until I die
"definitely, 100% straight protagonist:"
[cut]
"i can't get drunk"
me: [WHEEZE]
"...anyway,"
Curt’s line “That’s not your secret to tell” hits so differently now.
Oh yeah that whole scene is devastating everything considered.
I tought it was strange when he calls Owen "partner" 'cause they are from different agencies,so it couldn't be in work ways
Yeah it's a pretty ambiguous word. .
I thought the same thing!
i think im going to use "very heterosexual dancing" in my daily vocabulary
Nothing here to see. Just two bros dancin
@@SilvanaLTD But, **gasp** they weren't five feet apart!! 😂😂
@@SilvanaLTD Not at all a often seen tropes in spy themed media done with the "couple" the audience is expected to ship ^^
i do in fact do that. i also rewatch this video sm
Owen and Curt's standoff at the end was straight up the best best BEST scene in the show.
It almost made my cry editing this video
Silvana Ltd. I get what you mean. I made an animatic of the coldest goodbye reprise and could barely get through editing without stopping to cry every two minutes.
yeah and it hURT SO MUCH
I'm not sure about "straight" up
I'm so sorry
Their entire conversation is just so fucking heartbreaking. It makes sense that such a somber climax is so amazing.
“The last few scenes are where it comes together,” no it does not All come together. My heart is in pieces. Everywhere. Like a glass window being jumped through
true
Gays: *exist*
Everyone in the 1950's: And I oop-
When you flashed to Captain America first avenger I literally snorted
Haha
fam, I held back a scream I feel that
same i don’t know how i didn’t hear your sarcasm and so i was not expecting my stevie boi
dogs forever same
Your sarcasm when that happened though. Loved it
I can’t believe as you said “an 100% straight protagonist” I was like....”Steve Rogers” and then it cut to the first avenger lmaooo
Lol we're on the same wavelength
I love how you're talking about some serious historical document and then suddenly sneak in sarcasm "comPLETELY HETEROSEXUAL"
hey you gotta have balance in life lol
No one can tell me that Joe Walker wasn’t the hottest thing ever in Spies are Forever
I'm sorry but that award goes to Joey as Owen
okay, but also: cynthia
I think Joe's accent puts him on top though...
I beg to differ Joey was waaayyy hotter.
Jeff. Lyn. lopez Facts are facts
“Spies are forever. It’s a musical about spies”
Me: you don’t say....
Yeah it's a controversial statement but someone's gotta say it.
Silvana Ltd. would it have been that hard for them to at least mention it in the show?
Silvana Ltd. Cue ‘Somebody’s gotta do it’ music
Really? I thought it was gonna be about tax lawyers!
Ella Banchieri bahahahahahaha
i dry heaved a little when you said '1995.' 1995??!! this is why we need pride people
Exactly! This is not ancient history.
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK
gay sex was technically illegal until 2003
@@bonsaigecko9153 This country is SO wonderful.
I love smart people having smart opinions on my dumb interests. Great video ❤️
Haha thanks for calling me smart! and thanks for watching!
The beginning really shocked me because love is love
Yeah a lot of the stuff I read for research for this was really rough. It's wild that our own government did stuff like that not that long ago. It shows you just how far we've come with LGBTQ rights recently. Sadly there's still a lot of places where that's not the case though.
Laurens water bottle your user name gives me life
WhatLenaLikes love ur vids thank u
Laurens water bottle awww thank you!!
"When you make stories about LGTB characters set in the past, the history is already baked into the narrative." That is an amazing quote! This was a VERY enjoyable education. Thanks!!!
That's so nice! Thank you for watching!
"some very heterosexual dancing"
"whats gay about this?"
im wh e ezin g
(awesome video, btw!!!)
Haha thanks
"Unfortunate hetero normative interlude" is the most relatable thing
very applicable to some...recent movies
One thing I found funny when watching the first episode for the first time was that I could immediately tell he was gay. It was an immediate obvious thing in my head. But I fully thought that I'd be tricked out of having a homosexual character by him finding Tatiana. I'm so glad that didn't happen. I just wish we could have seen more of Owen and curt's relationship.
I actually knew that he was gay before I knew pretty much anything else about it because people were commenting "what about Curt and Owen" a lot on my Starkid Pride video, but I didn't know how far it went. I watched it with my mom to see how early she picked up on it and she got it fairly quickly. It could have easily be left in subtext, but I'm glad it wasn't!
We all knew as soon as we saw the totally heterosexual dancing
If Tin Can Bros ever made a movie adaptation of this musical, I think one of the things they could do is more hints of Owen and Curt’s relationship, not in a flashback or anything like that, but through DMA’s character
tbh i wouldn't turn down the bi rep if they kept owen/curt as explicit as it is, but i am glad i went into it knowing they wouldn't just queerbait it. was still surprised by how explicit they did make it tho lol
Jesus christ, I did not expect it to go t h I s d e e p.
Also, the part where she says "has a double meaning? I don't know," killed me, I was laughing for a solid 2 minutes.
Haha I'm glad you laughed at that! I'm always worried about how my jokes will land in videos lol. Thanks so much for watching. I love going in depth with stuff like this!
I had to pause the video because I couldn't hear it over my laughter
I... Didn't get it...
@@applepatronum4934 Tatiana is referring to his beard literally but it could also be a beard like the term for a girlfriend he would have to hide his sexuality
@@SilvanaLTD Ah thank you for explaining! I haven't heard that term.
this is on a somewhat unrelated note but the Deadliest Man Alive and Owen are the only characters with an English accent; so that alludes to the real identity of the Deadliest Man Alive before the reveal even occurs
just something that I’ve picked up on that I wanted to share if someone has also thought about that or someone may not have noticed that at first
Wendy also the fact that he had no name, just a title, just a rank, nothing concrete, as both of those can be taken away
also after torture tango when the deadliest man alive/Owen was on the ground you can see how it looks like he is removing a mask before shooting curt
I want to add on by saying that I noticed that Owen is left handed, maybe because Joey is(???). This is shown when he tickles Curt with the feather in the beginning and the hand he holds his gun in. When Joe as the DMA punched Mega in 'Torture Tango', it was with his left hand. It's such a small detail, but so amazing to me.
I feel like listening to the soundtrack first almost spoiled it for me bc when DMA is introduced he sounded so much like Owen in my mind that I knew before I really knew
Yes Captain Steve Rogers America is definitely one hundred (100) percent straight of course no homosexual behaviour there at all no no
Nope nothing to see here. Just some heteros doing hetero stuff
@@SilvanaLTD *hetero dancing*
Just the honest trailers, I laughed so hard I had to pause every few seconds to understand anything at all ^^
There definitely is not a strong bond between two men. Nope. Only heteros here!
@@SilvanaLTD Two bros, chilling in the hot tub, five feet apart cuz they're not gay
When Joey's character was making out with Susan then realised he was a man he says "my career, my children!", just something I picked up after watching this. I'd no idea the exact extent of the discrimination, nor even heard about the Lavender Scare, so it was really interesting re-watching Spies with the exact context in mind, thanks :)
thanks for watching! and that's a good point I didn't mention that scene in this video.
In the intelligence community, a partner would be someone of your own agency, that you always work closely with. It is clear that Kurt and Owen worked for different agencies, and simply wouldn’t be made “partners” in their jobs. Therefor this is semi clearly stating that yes they had a romantic relationship!
You did a hell of a lot of research and I just need to applaud that 👏👏 it gives a whole new level to the musical
Thanks! It was a very interesting topic.
I count Spy Again as a love song and you can’t prove me wrong
Agreed
As soon as you said "His journey started not by, say, the death of a sexy lady but by the death of his male partner" my brain immediately linked back to Steve then you showed him and I started cracking up
at 12:22 ish i NEVER picked up on why he neglects to say “i’m gay” and instead says she’s “not his type”, it would make so much sense if the word gay has such a horrible rep. PLUS he looks so happy when she says “til the end” GOD he was probably terrified to even hint at it
Yeah he probably never actually "came out" to someone like that. Also i think the word gay was only just starting to be used in that context in the 60s so he probably would have said homosexual or queer which had a lot more negative connotations even back then.
Silvana Ltd. which only drives it home further when she barely hesitates before accepting him
it also follows with her backstory of abandoning the KGB i think considering that was one of their ideals
I accidentally deleted someone's comment, so if that was you, I am so sorry, there wasn't anything wrong with it, I just clicked the wrong button.
I don't think I can accurately explain just how much I love this video, so I'll just say this:
Doing This is my favorite song, too, and I get a lot of flack for that lmao. I'm glad to see someone else who appreciates this song!
Thanks for the heart - I'm currently offering my future first born child to my friend in exchange for her watching SAF, so... wish me luck?
@@Ray-hk1zm haha good luck! And thanks for watching
@@SilvanaLTD Any time! Your videos are great!
Sis,,, you snapped with this video. It’s actually blowing my mind and I’m so invested. Catch me watching this a million times over.
SHIT THERE WAS A CLIP OF COLIN FIRTH-
Thanks so much! I welcome you to watch as many times as you want lol
Yeah, he was actually in two of the movies that I watched for this video, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, and Another Country, but he wasn't shown in the clip from Another Country.
Silvana Ltd. yeah!!! i was like “oh my god that’s colin!...OH MY GOD THAT’S ANOTHER COLIN FIRTH MOVIE!” ahaha! i am one of the big colin firth fangirls whoops-
@@pongo7695 all intellectuals are. Also nice pfp
The first time I saw the Tortue Tango scene I sat there wondering if there was actually some subtext in the scene or if it was just Joe Walker being Joe walker
that's subtext baby!
Gotta love Owen
Another thing I noticed with the Torture Tango is that Owen is the one torturing him and he says "I've been waiting for this moment for such a long time" he is hurting just as much as Curt and this also adds to the whole revenge factor. Also the line " I probably spent as much time hating you as you did" is sad because he feels betrayed and the creators did such a good job of rounding out the feelings between the two, the ones that were there and the ones that are now there. It's honestly such an amazing show.
oof this is gonna make me cry
@@SilvanaLTD yeah it's so sad that he hates curt so much
“Curt Mega as Agent Curt Mega” is creativity at its peak
Idk if anyone’s pointed this out yet, but the title of the video has a double meaning too, “decoded” as in de-queer coded, which was the purpose and decoded as in spies decoding things, very clever, kudos
Thanks! I was pretty proud of that title lol. Also one of my favorite thumbnails I've ever made.
Also in addition to being a clever title really good video bro, it was interesting and informative; i didn’t know about the lavender scare and it changed how i saw saf
That means a lot! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
14:48 I don't know if it was intentional, but "beard" is slang for a closeted gay person's opposite-gender partner, so that could absolutely be a double meaning
Yeah that's what I thought
This mustve been so much work, but it was definitely worth it
It did! but I think it was worth it based on the response.
I love your name
You forgot to mention how everything is completely and directly confirmed with the line “It’s never easy to bury your ex lover come back from the dead to kill you...” as I saw a few people who hadn’t gotten through the entire musical and still tried to interpret Curt as straight (i don’t know how). Other than that, wonderful video! Over here in the UK Alan Turing only recently officially got the recognition in the eyes of the government for all he did. It’s so sad that talented wonderful people like him were left jobless and scorned, and in his case, felt there was nothing left for them in this world. When I realised Curt was genuinely gay and it wasn’t just subtext i was so happy. Peace ✌️
Oh yeah thats definitely the most explicit line. I read an old comment once on This Is a Safe Space where someone got really mad at the suggestion that Curt and Owen could be lovers. Some people (straight people) really need to be hit over the head with this kind of stuff which is frustrating. And yeah, i considered talking about Alan Turing but the cambridge spies were more relevant in this case. Its so sad what happened to him but at least his legacy is being recognized more now.
I was questioning why this *amazingly put together* video didn't have more veiws but then I realized it was only posted today aksjdhfskjdf
Dude I just discovered it now and hello
@@rain-cesiagavden5494 same
Okay I’m impressed. I normally care absolutely not at all about history but this was genuinely riveting.
That's high praise! I always think history is more interesting when it's tied to something else I'm interested in.
Hi, I'd like to share my thought on your awesome vid!
In the scene where Tati told Curt that 'he doesn't have to hide behind a beard to look cool', I feel like they were directly referencing to a term called a 'beard'.
Based on what I know, a 'beard' is a person who is pretending to date a homosexual in order to mask their true sexuality. When I saw the scene a second time, I began to think about it a bit more. I think Tati was suggesting that of course, he never actually had to pretend to like her similarly like he did in Doing This. I was thinking that it might be a signal that he can feel safe to be himself around Tati.
But anyway, that's just what I think. Nice vid by the way! I loved it!
That's totally what I was thinking. It's a nice little joke, but could also be her validating him saying "hey, you don't have to be anyone but yourself". It's a great line! Thanks so much for watching!
Spies are forever definitely has my favorite starkid/tcb lgbt rep. I love the story and the songs are pretty great too (we love the prince). I like how they use the song doing this as a “romantic” song and they really reference the heteronormativity of that trope and then they don’t do it. I love that Tatiana and Curt were able to have that great friendship you outlined in this video and even though Barb doesn’t completely get it she’s pretty cool too.
I enjoyed the part of the video where you looked at Torture Tango because that is a great scene and along with the homoeroticness of that moment you also feel a bit of bitterness that Owen holds for Curt.
This was a good video
Torture Tango is so great and really fun to look at from the perspective of knowing it's Owen and not knowing. Like I said, Doing This is my favorite song in the show. I'm down for any song that goes against heteronormativity lol. I didn't talk about Barb much, but one thing I really like is that Curt is kind of a jerk to her cause he's so arrogant (in the beginning) but he's not a misogynist. Like he just make fun of her for being a nerd. She's kind of the Q of the story.
oh i LOVE the comparison to captain america.... the whole plot is so similar to the winter soldier too
Yeah i could probably make a whole other video about saf and Captain America
@@SilvanaLTD Yes please! That would be the ultimate fandom-crossover for me 😍
”starring a definitely 100% straight protagonist.”
cuts to Captain America
There was a song form the musical that came on my Spotify and I was like??? Wait, are they???? Are they gay??? And I'm glad it wasn't just in my head. And THANK YOU FOR THE EDUCATION ON GAY HISTORY
It's definitely real lol. A truly gay spy musical. Im always happy to educate! Thanks for watching!
That’s why he can’t just tell Barb why he’s not interested in her! I always wondered why I he didn’t just tell her what was going on.
another moment that could be added to the part around 4:55 is when owen calls curt 'love' -- "pass me one of the charges, Love."
could just be a british thing, but it's most definitely a gay thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think it's both
There's a lot of overlap between the two territories lol
Gay or European?
“A definitely 100% straight protagonist” *shows Captain America*
I SQUEALED
“I think - I think you don’t need to hide behind a beard to look cool.”
“Has a double meaning? idunno”
Oh my god 😂
Considering showing this to my "LGBTQ History through Film" elective tomorrow! We just finished watching SAF (after I wouldn't shut up about it for four weeks) and this video does a great job of providing historical context and highlighting everything I love about this show. Keep up the good work!
That's awesome! Thanks for watching!!
that's an actual elective where you go (or went) to school?! lucky!!! also good job getting them to watch SAF lol
i really loved your sondheim video, can you do one about The Guy Who Didn't Like Musicals? or maybe a character analysis? idk i just want smart content on tgwdlm lol
I actually made a video about TGWDLM as a movie czcams.com/video/0fdkCwY1De4/video.html I would love to do another one about a different topic eventually. It's such an interesting show.
I truly loved this musical. Starkid and Tin can bros are really good at representation and dare I say it: saying gay rights. They had a gay relationship as part of the main plot but not making it comedic. Though the whole musical was comedic ish, it was still serious when it came to curts sexuality but it wasn’t made fun of. It was respected and understanding. Truly awesome.
you’re so right steve and bucky are exactly like curt and owen wow
Natasha=Tatiana
I really hope Joey, Brian, Corey and the rest of the cast and crew see this. What a fantastic video! Your videos are always so amazing and well-researched and well-made. Keep up the great work!
Thanks so much! I would love for them to see it.
Silvana Ltd. Are you on twitter? Curt engages with fans quite frequently on there and it’d probably be the easiest way to reach any of them. I’m happy to do it if you don’t have twitter but I wouldn’t wanna accidentally steal your credit...
@@aw1379 i am on twitter. I only started using it recently tho. I already tweeted it out to him and the tin can brothers. Im @silvanaltd on twitter feel free to retweet me lol
Silvana Ltd. Will do. Great video, btw, I’m subscribing!
One thing I loved about how Curt’s sexuality is presented in the show is that it isn’t essential to the plot but to the character. I mean, some people missed the fact that he’s gay when they first watched it (don’t ask me how). But learning he’s gay recontextualises Act I and explains why Owen’s death messed Curt up so much. (This is also why I think it’s brilliant that it’s only revealed in Act II - harder to enjoy Sergio when you know how much Curt is suffering.)
Another thing that fits within your interpretation is that Curt and Owen talk to each other like two straight men might. It could be flirting or cheeky banter, without extra knowledge, you can’t tell. While Curt seems to have picked up other men in the past, I imagine it would be way too dangerous for him or Owen to really participate in gay subculture. So the slang many other gay people would have used among each other just isn’t part of their vocabulary. Or maybe I’m just reading way too much into this show...
I just realized, if the story was written in a way that would completely emulate James Bond, if Curt and Tatiana got together, the Spies Are Forever version of the Bond Girl would be the Mega Girl
Oh my god
Tootsie Noodles: 👁👄👁
Fellas is it gay to have a mom?
Lmao this comment killed me
A very interesting situation about Spies are forever is also that many of the viewers who picked up on the subtext early in the musical still only realized that Mega is actually a gay character later on because we have been used to so many shows only having subtext and nothing further.
I think this is a picture of not only this musical but our time in general. In the past a lot of viewers were so starved for gay content in media that a lot of us accepted that all we got was longing glances and innuendos.
We now have more and more shows with actually positive gay representation and quite a few are mainstream shows.
But for a lot of us it doesn’t feel as the norm yet and therefore I think a lot of us went through the beginning of the musical thinking it was part of the old formula of gay subtext (possibly also because of the James Bond parallels).
This is so true! Even when it seems so obvious we still doubt it because there are so many cases where they just keep it in the subtext.
Oh my god, I hope someone from TCB sees this. This is so well done! I love these kind of things.
I would love if that happened! Thanks for watching.
I thought this was going to be a fun crack video but now I’ve got to go rant to all my friends about gay rights in the sixties.
valid response
Ahhh, this is such an interesting and well-made video! Even though I obviously knew that being a gay government employee in 1961 would have been a ~very~ dangerous situation, I didn’t know any of the history of the Lavender Scare so I really appreciate being educated on the historical context. I love when people take the time to deep-dive into content that seems silly to a lot of people on the surface, and I especially love it when that content involves one of my favorite musicals, LGBTQ history, and examinations of representation! Thank you for sharing with us!!!
Thanks! I think LGBTQ history is so important and fascinating, but unfortunately we're not really taught it in schools. And of course as a film major diving into media, even if it doesn't seem that deep on first glance is my jam.
Daaang. You didn’t have to go that hard but you DID and I’m so glad you did. This was such an intriguing video. Also, the line “a spy is a spy” kind of hits differently at the end.. Could it be interpreted as the idea that a spy is a spy no matter their sexuality?
Thanks! I never thought of that, but that interpretation totally makes sense. It could tie into spy again with Curt talking about what a spy is.
Silvana Ltd. :D wow you replied I’m honored. Also, just subscribed!
@@loglog1954 Thanks so much for subscribing! And I love responding to comments! Trying to do it as much as possible before I get busy with school again.
Tatiana and Curt are my favorite best friends
DoodleRo brotp
Such A Great video! What adds to this is the fact that in the First song Owen calls Curt by "love" in one of The dialogs
Yes! I love that detail.
Which is fantastic because it could just be misheard, or passed as "oh those British men and their quirky language"
I found this in a CZcams comment that gave me in a crisis where they mentioned it’s ALSO important to note that since Curt and Owen worked for two different organizations means they most likely wouldn’t have been partners in the professional sense
I love learning about LGBTQ history. Thank you for analyzing one of my favorite musical and teaching me something!
No problem! Thanks for watching. Im glad you learned something
This is a great video but I just wanted to say that you forgot the great line at the end of the show where Tatiana literally says “ It’s no easy task burying your ex-lover returned from the grave to kill you.” Which really just solidifies the point.
I’ve watched this show so many times, and yet so many of the lyric mirroring you brought up I never noticed (specifically “Your heart, he’ll break” and “You know you broke my heart”). This entire video is very clever, amazing job.
Thanks! Coldest Goodbye is a really interesting song to listen to in retrospect of watching the rest of the show
Since Owen worked for England, and Curt worked for America, they would not have been "Partners" in the way that two American spies would be "Partners", which means he never really hid that they dated, it was mostly just misunderstandings from other people. Owen and Curt could not have been work Partners but they were definitely "Partners".
I was texting my friend (who had already seen it) all of my reactions and i find it pretty funny that one of my first texts while watching the first scene was “wait are curt and Owen partners or are they p a r t n e r s” like it was so obvious to me that they were definitely not straight, but I was expecting for them to be left as subtext, cause every other time two characters are clearly gay the writers are like nope no homosexuality here there is no gay in Ba sing se
then of course my next texts were all keysmashes when Owen “died”
They delivered!
actually... the parallels between captain america and spies are forever...
I love song rankings and other compilations as much as anyone but these type of in depth videos are the Best!!!
Thanks! Video essays take a lot longer, but they're probably my favorite to make.
I just find it interesting that 30 years ago I would’ve been a “threat to the country” for who I love
Ain't history fun like that?
More TCB/Starkid Video Essays pls. This is a sub-genre I never thought I needed in my life
I plan on making more for sure
Silvana Ltd. If I may make a suggestion, maybe a meta-video on Ani, and why it’s generally the least liked Starkid show.
"Doing this" is such a masterpiece, I love it
(And also how can anyone read that scene of the Bond movie as homoerotic, it made me extremely uncomfortable aysudneifndiene)
Thanks! And yes, that scene was so uncomfortable, but so many people thought it was homoerotic ugh.
I watched this with my father recently and was shocked when he didn’t seem to notice the romantic history between Curt and Owen- I sometimes forget that straights don’t automatically scan for queer subtext like we do.
I know this comment is like a year late, but I've kinda noticed another parallel between Curt and Steve with what happens to Owen and Bucky, in that they both 'die' a similar way, only to return a number of years later on the enemy side and trying to kill Curt/Steve. idk
Anyway, your videos are pretty cool and its interesting in this one how you compare it to actual attitudes during the cold war.
Yes! A lot of people have compared Spies are Forever with Winter Soldier which makes Tatiana Natasha lol. Thanks for watching!
Things they don’t teach in history classes and they should. 1- this.
I just watched Spies Are Forever and now am getting all the good video recs!!! Super great video. Somehow I didn't realize how big a deal it was that the intelligence network would reveal every queer person. I also noticed the whole "partner" thing that many people have commented. I loved the subversion of the Bond girl trope-- in the opening number, the "time to get the girl" obviously seems to reference Bond girls, but then in Cynthia's first scene, she yells at Curt to "go get the girl." This time she means Tatiana, and she means it as in "go get the enemy agent," and I thought that was another really cool subversion where Mega goal is still to "get the girl" but not in a romantic way. Also, the whole "spies, master of disguise" hits harder after watching this video and thinking about the daily disguise Curt, Owen, and other government people would have to do to hide their queerness if they still wanted to work. Thanks for a fantastic video!!
Thanks so much! And also "the daily disguise" omg yes! That's exactly what it is.
Your video essays are so great!
Thanks! They take a while to make but they're probably my favorite thing to do.
I can’t lie, I didn’t pick up on ANYTHING until the final reveal about Curt and Owen being together and watching this video. I feel really dumb...
Don't feel dumb! Not everybody notices the same stuff.
"And some very heterosexual dancing..."
**Cue some not very heterosexual dancing**
Whatever you do in the rumpus room
...
If this about Owen
...
She said "a constant parade" so I think it's a lot of people. He can get it lol
@@SilvanaLTD well, duh!
I laughed so hard when you said "and some very heterosexual dancing" omg
Edit: LMAO I just saw that EVERYONE else talked about this too😂
How are you so smart and articulate? I love you so much!!!
Aw thanks! It takes a lot of editing to make me not sound like a bumbling idiot
Me: oh cool a fun spies are forever video!
Intro: homophobia is real and used to be even worse
Me: :(
When you were talking about another “definitely straight protagonist” my mind immediately jumped to the scene in The First Avenger, and I was so glad that that was the case.
“Who is d e f i n I t e l y straight.” Shows captain America. suRE
literally I did not think about this until now....woahhh
Glad you got something out of it! I learned a lot researching this video
1. The stairs scene has a lot of clever things on it but the line that stood for me at the time was Curt’s, “Some secrets aren’t yours to share. What about our secret?” At the time, I thought, “Well, duh, it’s the 60s. That kind of bigotry is common at the time.” But you actually manage to put them into historical contexts. Thank you for tickling my history nerd brain.
2. You mentioned how UK had anti-LGBT laws that were bad but not as bad as their American counterparts. When you mentioned how Owen’s plan is basically the prelude to the internet, it reminded me of Alan Turing, the father of the internet itself. In the 40s, when WW2 is at the highest, Alan Turing, a mathematician, was hired by MI6 to break Germany’s code machine. It was estimated that his works shortened the war by two years. Unfortunately, at age 39 he was arrested when it was found out that he was gay. Due to his work, he was offered two options: prison or probation, which involves hormonal treatments. He died of suicide at the age of 41.
Anyway, this video is fantastic and you somehow made Spies Are Forever even cooler than before
Yes! Alan Turing is a huge figure in all of this, although preceding the cold war a bit, but so awful that someone who was so integral in the war was treated treated so terribly by his country. Thanks for watching!
you really said in this essay i will and then wrote the essay
look. as a liberal arts/film student that's literally all i know how to do.
Silvana Ltd. hahah i feel that. I’m at a lib arts school
I did in fact make a video essay for a class on the magicians and lgbt rep in the show
Granted yours is better 😂
@@gabbisembini Haha i'm sure yours is great. Liberal arts for life! What do you study?
Silvana Ltd. international relations
To quote spies are forever
If it wasn’t for my love of foreign policy and sharpshooter aim I would have been an actor
Haha still want to be one tho and doing stuff on the side but yeah 🤷♀️
@@gabbisembini lol I can't believe that quote works so well. Sounds a lot more useful than my majors. good luck with everything!
Oh hell yeah, I've been waiting for this
Well here it is! Thanks for watching!
i watched it for the first time today,,,,, dude the 'lovers to enemies' arc hURT
yeah it's rough but it's so good
ngl when I clicked on this in my recommended the opening gave me whiplash bc I was expecting like.. one of those crackhead starkid edits lmao
Lol. I think that happened to a lot of people who watch from recommended cause the title/thumbnail seems pretty normal but then bam...i go right into it. Thanks for watching!
I adore the way they subvert the bond's womanizer trope with Tatiana because they literally make Tatiana and Curt besties! Tatiana as a character feels very lesbian coded, which is really sweet because they genuinely both accept each other!
This is a great video essay by the way, i enjoyed watching it!
Thanks so much! It's very refreshing that Tatiana has her own arc outside of being a love interest and their friendship works so well.
I keep coming back to this video because I just love SAF so much, and we need more video essays about this amazing show
I edited my comment and lost the heart :(
Subtext, by Calvin Klein.
I appreciate the research, now can you tell me why I love Owen so much despite him being the main villain??
He’s played by Joey
Facts
@@xpa-beads501 You got me, my love for Joey Richter is too strong lmao
@@xpa-beads501 Yall gotta see Black Friday. I dont want to spoil anything but he lowkey plays a villain again there.... Its something else dude
@@redacted5078 Is it because Joey played a traitor secret agent who sang to a Curt Mega character in a staircase?
This musical is one of my favorite things and this analysis makes me love it even more but dang it I wish Owen had a redemption arc so my heart wouldn't be shattered from this
I feel that
2:30 ok so obviously this chart is inaccurate and problematic in so many ways but I'm intrigued by the inclusion of the phrase "homosexuality is contained to some degree in all personalities". Like... idk sounds like something someone who's gay and trying to convince themself otherwise would say... "Yeah no everybody's a little gay it just depends how willing you are to act on them. I'm obviously not at all willing to act on *my* homosexual inclinations. Nope. Don't worry I'm 'normal' haha."
Lol you're right though. It's like "you guys all feel like that too... right? Right?!"