My video on the issue of the BBC's support of Transphobia: czcams.com/video/aN4uc0HZrWE/video.html My video on the BBC's response to complaints of its reporting: czcams.com/video/skh81N5lcYY/video.html My short on why I'll continue to put up the note at the front of these: czcams.com/users/shortsHpwwzjzFXiE Shaun's 1st video, which includes some additional confirmed information: czcams.com/video/b4buJMMiwcg/video.html Shaun’s 2nd video, which follows how the BBC is trying to dodge accountability for all of this: czcams.com/video/qfjTG6SVjmQ/video.html Shaun’s 3rd video, following him escalating his complaints: czcams.com/video/fRn1UZ4fhdE/video.html Shaun's 4th video, covering the BBC's response: czcams.com/video/3F7GW7Ro4OQ/video.html Laura Kate Dale's protest speech outside the BBC offices: czcams.com/video/hBjGnWkwAjI/video.html
I wish this whole finale was strictly about the Cybermen conflict with Ashad the Lone Cyberman as the sole main villain. Everything with the Master and the Timeless Child/Brendan really dragged everything down.
This finale feels like if you bolted World Enough and Time onto the front of Hell Bent, the complete lack of cohesion between the two parts is just staggering
To me, there were two very clear fixes for this episode. 1)The Cyberheads fly over a human target. Drop, clamp down and begin to convert them. Playing into their methodology. 2) The Brendan backstory was for *Ashad,* not the Timeless Child. Recontextualise the ending to him volunteering for "enhancement".
Not gonna lie, while I was watching this episode I thought Brendan was the backstory to the Lone Cyberman. That we are seeing his life before he gets converted and why he chose to be a cyberman.
The most annoying thing about this episode is when it happens. Previously, the doctor let the Lone cyberman take the cyberium knowing it would be used in the cyberwar, and realises that she must then go and try to try it. But instead she goes straight to the end of the war when nearly everyone is dead? What's the point of turning up when there's only 6 humans left. Might as well just carry on somewhere else and forget about the cyberium, as she basically plays no role at all in stopping anything.
I remember thinking upon watching it the first time, the flying Cyberman heads were just so boring. Yet they could have been terrifying. Perhaps instead of killing bolts, they shot paralysis bolts to freeze their victims in place while Cybermen could come and take them for conversion, or shooting teleport tags like in Star Trek: Insurrection, or even creepier - they fly in and clamp down on the victim's head, shoving tendrils, tubes, wires down into the rest of the body for a quick and dirty painful assimilation that would give Cybermen immediate ground troops that can be fully converted later. Basically, the idea they set up in The Pandorica Opens.
I liked the Brendan story, rooted for him, and was very frustrated when it led to absolutely nothing. I was expecting him to be a long lost timelord, perhaps the daughter of the Doctor, Jenny, being regenerated in an obscure way to a small toddler, because she was a clone. I thought that was the way they would connect the Doctor to the timeless child story. I also thought Doctor Ruth could be the doctor's daughter, genetically remember echoes of the Doctor's past, believing she was the real doctor when she actually was her daughter. Oh boy, how wrong I was 🤣 But when watching this episode, I really was clueless about what to come. So I thought this story was quite okay when I was watching it the first time.
One thing I've never seen anyone address but the episode points out as true is that the human refugees went to Gallifrey through the portal and that old man had been waiting outside to protect the portal and guide other survivors, I had been left with the impression that that the Master's truth would be that the TimeLords were originally descendants of human refugees. Another theory would be that the timeless child came from this portal. But in the next episode they just forget about it.
Thank you for calling the Brendan stuff "cheating," because that is 100% the word that came to my mind the first time it was explained what all that actually was. Telling the audience they don't know everything, lying to them about what they're seeing, and then trying to do this reveal that nobody could have seen coming is the laziest most thoughtless storytelling you could find. The only L in this video is your description of the scene between the Doctor and Ashad. "Now THAT's what I call an inner conflict" is such a m*****batory line from Chibnall that it makes me laugh every time I hear it, especially when Ashad agrees. We already got this information in the previous episode (through subtle and tactful writing), but it feels like Chris just can't help calling the audience stupid while giving himself a big ol' pat on the back for thinking of the first actually interesting villain of the era.
3:10 Or alternatively, it would make more sense if the standard operating strategy for the Cybermen while fighting Human forces was to have weapons automatically set to stun so they can more easily capture and convert any Humans they encounter since I feel that Cybermen would view conflict with those that can be turned into Cybermen would be a waste of 'resources'.
I work on the assumption that the Master always expects to run into the Doctor, and just has a running list of things to say to them when they inevitably meet again. We'll never be rid of the Master for good, and I like that. The Master is probably my favorite of the Doctor's antagonists, because they used to be such good friends, and their paths diverged so greatly. And based on the overall characterization of the character over the decades, it feels like of course he was waiting and he knew the Doctor would turn up here eventually. He knows her, knows how her TARDIS works, and how she's likely to react to various situations. What honestly surprised me more than him showing up here was that he didn't show up in Flux at all.
Definitely miss the traditional two parters, while the two separate stories approach has led to some interesting episodes, for the most part it often leads to the main plot of the previous story being mostly abandoned, in the case of this story it's setup for a story that never happens.
Ngl I thought Brendan was Ashads backstory the whole episode until it went nowhere. And then when we found out about the timeless child I was like oh… so Brendan is… the doctor? I guess? Like I logically concluded that must be the case but it just felt wrong still. Didn’t work at all
I love how you called it cheating! I felt the same way! Also, been watching for a while, just commenting for the first time! Love the content and reactions!
Isn’t Gallifrey jokingly referring to as Ireland? there’s a line in Human Nature where John Smith (10) is asked by Joan about his parents (Verity and Sydney)
I actually quite like the Brendan scenes not showing him regenerate because it's clear that to him he's still himself, even if his body has clearly changed, where the reaction from others was "wait...how are you alive?" at first but also works for the "wait who are you?" reaction of the first person to find a regenerated person. I do think it as a section wasn't served well enough overall though, and didn't feel as well paralleled as it could be, but it does build some interest at least, but I wish it had more structure
Completely agree about the unfair-to-the-audience use of Ireland to make it impossible to figure out what’s going on. But I suspect that the reason for setting it in Ireland is Chibnall’s excessive focus on deep-lore fanwankery and him mistaking “remembering a throw-away line from 43 years ago” for “adding depth and context”. I think that Chibnall thinks that it’s a “clever clue” because two characters in Fourth Doctor stories thought that Gallifrey was in Ireland. And he expects that once it’s revealed, we’ll all be saying “ooohhh! The answer was right in front of us the whole time! I should’ve guessed that! What a clever way to drop a hint without completely giving it away!” To which i say: BS. Maybe if Ireland had _never_ shown up or been mentioned in Doctor Who in any other context except the location of Gallifrey, _and_ Ireland wasn’t a real-world place that is in close geographic proximity to most Doctor Who stories set on Earth and the mention of which is unremarkable both in those stories and to typical viewers, _and_ it was a recurring joke, even a running gag, not something mentioned twice 40+ years ago and once more a dozen years ago, in all cases as a throw-away gag line rather than a plot point, let alone a significant plot point- _maybe_ if _all_ of those things were true, it would work. But when _none_ of them are, it’s just dishonest storytelling, at best because the writer misperceives what others remember and will enjoy, at worst because they’re pumping up their own ego by belittling viewers.
I'm glad you found a way to make the Cyber drones work in your 'head' canon. ;) XD But here's another thing with the Master suddenly showing up: The last time we saw the Master, he was trapped in the Kasaavin dimension. How the heck did he escape from there and wind up on Gallifrey?!
You touched a little bit on the Master appearing at the end and how on earth that's even happening, but relatedly it's never explained what the boundary actually is... Why is it there? Did it always connect to Gallifrey or did the Master rig it somehow? What happened to all the humans who went through previously? Are they on Gallifrey? Are they on wherever it connected to previously? Did it go through to random places each time? If so, that's a huge coincidence that it went to Gallifrey when it did. It's all just so not thought out.
Really love the start of this one , for once the doctor's " I am going to save all of you " routine falls flat , people die and we jump straight into the action as Ashad and his cybermen close in.
I have a personal theory about the origins of Gallifrey, I think the Time Lords were essentially human, meaning they came from Earth centuries upon centuries in the future after the planet was destroyed in, The End of the World, and settled on an unnamed planet, which came to be known as Gallifrey, and set about creating a new civilization which came to be known as Time Lords, and is why the deep down in the Doctors nature, and biology is why he as such an affinity for Earth and it's people. The Time Lords in their heritage were at one time human before they transcended their humanity to become the advanced "alien" civilization that they became, and in time it somehow became "forgotten", or at the very least suppressed by the Gallifreyan hierarchy.
Like, I agree with pretty much everything, sure, but did anyone else notice that in the last Brendan scene he's old but the other two men aren't any older than they have been??? That was really weird, and isk if it works with the timelord reveal from later, and it just bothers me. Idk, i know it's not a super big deal, but it's just weird.
it was thematically connected to the doctors struggle with her own memories. It's point for point what the doctor went through being the timeless child.
The reason why the humans are killed rather than converted is because Ashad wants to create a new breed of entirely mechanical Cybermen. Therefore, it would make absolutely no sense for him to convert any organic life into Cybermen. It's explicitly stated, although it is confirmed in the next next episode. It's a mystery yet to be solved, in Ascension of the Cybermen, that's all. Inference is key with this era of the show; deducing information from the various clues in dialogue and suchlike to help build a clearer picture in your mind. Implication rather than explication, essentially.
I just thought of something... Fugitive Doctor with Ashad as the villain. The intensity and drama would be immaculate. Now I want that to be a spinoff miniseries.
This was passable fun. First watch was interested in the Brendan stuff, second watch I was more interested in the human survivors stuff. The plot is still rough, and I don’t like the cyberheads, but beyond that the execution is fun enough. Like… a C+
after how good the two part finale was of series 10 with establishing the terror and threat of cybermen, and putting that danger at such a personal and humane level of consideration with what they can do to people and The Doctors response of simply being kind and to try, it really took away from the overall story with how this was overshadowed by TTC. I feel like you should have had either one or the other, but Chibnall doing what he does best tried to place them both together and honestly you end up with two narratives with their potential cut off. I'm not a fan of the whole TC addition, but if the ending two parter for series 12 made it a compelling and (bias showing here) understandable reason for a change in who The Doctor is then maybe the takeaway wouldn't have been so divisive.
Contrary to the previous couple (or more) episodes, I remember kind of liking this episode, though only a bit (enough that I'd be fine with watching it with others or if it was on TV, not enough that I expect to rewatch it on a whim). Didn't necessarily think the bad guy's plan was great and I really hated the subsequent episode so that sours everything this one did, but I was kinda okay with this episode. That's even despite some stupid moments with how "The Gang" fights the Cybermen, etc., but maybe it was just lowered expectations from the previous episodes or it caught me in the right mood that day, I don't know. Then again, I also forgot about the "Ireland" cop story, which certainly does ruin the episode a fair amount, so maybe I just edited out my major issues. Actually, it may be dishonest to say I completely forgot about the cop story: I simply misremembered it as a much shorter montage in the finale, not a series of scenes intercut with this. As noted, they feel so disconnected from the rest of the episode, that it doesn't fit - it feels like Chibnall had to mash 2 episodes together late in the process of making the season, and felt he needed both parts to setup the finale (he didn't, this storyline does not fit well with the Timeless Child stuff anyway, it's way too clunky especially in metaphor and doesn't really tell us much that won't be explained in the finale) so he just intercut them both.
I , like everyone else, wish that it was just a cyberman finale , they always seem to play second fiddle to someone. I adore Sasha's master but I wanted the cyberman stuff more. I like the timeless children plot so I don't have the issues allot do but this is a messy episode that is entertaining but just a bit too messy to be a classic.
Didn't Ashad want to get rid of the "human components" in cybermen? That may be the reasom why cybermen wanted to kill everyone instead of converting them... Kinda... It was revealed at the end of the next episode as far as I remember.
I really have given the entire Chibnall era up for lost - his show running/writing skills are so poor I can only imagine they're in bad faith, and so any effort on my part to find good in it is essentially me just revictimising myself. The contortions you (and many other Whovians) continue to put yourselves through to come to terms with this material just seems like so much waste of spirit - it is almost entirely bad - it is regrettable that any of it happened - and continuing to chew on it just expands the damage it has done to our hero's legacy. My daughter entirely gave up on Who during this period - it is irredeemable - I will never rewatch any of it.
Great review! Couple of points. I believe the whole bit about Ireland is an in-joke. Back in the Tom Baker years he would meet characters who would ask him where he came from. When he said "Gallifrey" they often responded: "is that in Ireland?". (This could be from the Target novels rather than the TV show - I know the books better). Doesn't Ashad want to convert all the cybermen into robots? (Which even the Master says is a rubbish plot!) Perhaps that's why they want to kill humans instead of converting them? The Cyberman redesign is probably the best version we've had in the new series. On which point, Ashad's costume is a nice mash up of previous cyber costumes. His arm is from the Tenth Planet, the head is reminiscent of the Troughton stories, and the legs are Tennant-era.
To me people seem to forget or overlook the fact that chris chibnall is a classic era fan of the show and during that time from 63-89 the cyber men didn’t do conversion on humans in there appearance they only killed humans them doing conversions is something rdt came up with when he reintroduced them in season 2 of the modern era I do think them having the ability to regenerate after converting timelords is an interesting idea but badly executed making them essentially indestructible cause who would have the time to run through a full 13 life regeneration cycle in one battle and the metal timelord capes is like them laughing at us in an evil way cause it’s a reminder of who they converted to stay around
Worse, they're not even aerodynamic! The Cybermen are technologically very advanced, but these about are the dumbest designs for ultra high-speed flying weapons one could come up with. And, for a famously emotionless race, it seems bizarrely egotistical that they should make the drones in their own image!
This episode suffers so much from knowing what comes next. The first time I was so intrigued by the weird Irish people who don't age, wondering how it connected and thinking what if it was Ashad's origin or a cyber plot or something. And then it is nothing, just a lie that has no reason to be there. Such a disappointment.
Chibnall wanted to make Jack Harkness father of the Timeless Child (that's why that Brendan character did not regenerate but returned to life Harkness style) but Barrowman's cancellation forced him to change the plans in Flux - and he created Vinder.
The Brendan story is the narrativised story of the abusive adoptive parent. It's intrusive because as we learn in TTC the Master was literally intruding on the Doctor's memories using the Matrix. If you felt that it was a distraction kind of irrelevant then I kinda understand why you dislike this two parter so much, I think. As an adoptee narrative, I think that the fact that these details about your identity come out of nowhere, are intrusive on your life, and have to be parsed in the context of multiple unreliable narrators, some of whom actively wish you harm, and limited records without context... That's kinda the point, innit?
Ok, so I'm going to get into this in the next review, but on point of the of paralleling the Master's invasion of memories: NOTHING about the framing in this episode or the next actually supports that. The next episode will try to claim that the Master was sending these memories to the Doctor, but they're not treated in this episode like something she is also seeing, they're just there. This is often how I feel about even Chibnall's good ideas: I can see how the concept could have been done well... but this isn't that.
@@CouncilofGeeks This is the one Doctor Who thing that I most strongly disgree with you about. I'm very much looking forward to your TTC review. I'll probably still disagree, but I very much appreciate your reviews. Maybe even more when your opinion differs from my own. Thanks.
This video reminded me how great this episode is. And if I just accept that the doctor is the timeless child this whole 3 part finale is really amazing. Series 12 was pretty good.
My video on the issue of the BBC's support of Transphobia: czcams.com/video/aN4uc0HZrWE/video.html
My video on the BBC's response to complaints of its reporting: czcams.com/video/skh81N5lcYY/video.html
My short on why I'll continue to put up the note at the front of these: czcams.com/users/shortsHpwwzjzFXiE
Shaun's 1st video, which includes some additional confirmed information: czcams.com/video/b4buJMMiwcg/video.html
Shaun’s 2nd video, which follows how the BBC is trying to dodge accountability for all of this: czcams.com/video/qfjTG6SVjmQ/video.html
Shaun’s 3rd video, following him escalating his complaints: czcams.com/video/fRn1UZ4fhdE/video.html
Shaun's 4th video, covering the BBC's response: czcams.com/video/3F7GW7Ro4OQ/video.html
Laura Kate Dale's protest speech outside the BBC offices: czcams.com/video/hBjGnWkwAjI/video.html
I wish this whole finale was strictly about the Cybermen conflict with Ashad the Lone Cyberman as the sole main villain. Everything with the Master and the Timeless Child/Brendan really dragged everything down.
This finale feels like if you bolted World Enough and Time onto the front of Hell Bent, the complete lack of cohesion between the two parts is just staggering
To me, there were two very clear fixes for this episode.
1)The Cyberheads fly over a human target. Drop, clamp down and begin to convert them. Playing into their methodology.
2) The Brendan backstory was for *Ashad,* not the Timeless Child. Recontextualise the ending to him volunteering for "enhancement".
Stubagful: "Maybe Benny is the War Brendon."
"BENNYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!"
Not gonna lie, while I was watching this episode I thought Brendan was the backstory to the Lone Cyberman. That we are seeing his life before he gets converted and why he chose to be a cyberman.
That would've been cool.
I thought that as well.
The most annoying thing about this episode is when it happens. Previously, the doctor let the Lone cyberman take the cyberium knowing it would be used in the cyberwar, and realises that she must then go and try to try it. But instead she goes straight to the end of the war when nearly everyone is dead? What's the point of turning up when there's only 6 humans left. Might as well just carry on somewhere else and forget about the cyberium, as she basically plays no role at all in stopping anything.
I remember thinking upon watching it the first time, the flying Cyberman heads were just so boring. Yet they could have been terrifying. Perhaps instead of killing bolts, they shot paralysis bolts to freeze their victims in place while Cybermen could come and take them for conversion, or shooting teleport tags like in Star Trek: Insurrection, or even creepier - they fly in and clamp down on the victim's head, shoving tendrils, tubes, wires down into the rest of the body for a quick and dirty painful assimilation that would give Cybermen immediate ground troops that can be fully converted later. Basically, the idea they set up in The Pandorica Opens.
I liked the Brendan story, rooted for him, and was very frustrated when it led to absolutely nothing. I was expecting him to be a long lost timelord, perhaps the daughter of the Doctor, Jenny, being regenerated in an obscure way to a small toddler, because she was a clone. I thought that was the way they would connect the Doctor to the timeless child story. I also thought Doctor Ruth could be the doctor's daughter, genetically remember echoes of the Doctor's past, believing she was the real doctor when she actually was her daughter. Oh boy, how wrong I was 🤣 But when watching this episode, I really was clueless about what to come. So I thought this story was quite okay when I was watching it the first time.
One thing I've never seen anyone address but the episode points out as true is that the human refugees went to Gallifrey through the portal and that old man had been waiting outside to protect the portal and guide other survivors, I had been left with the impression that that the Master's truth would be that the TimeLords were originally descendants of human refugees. Another theory would be that the timeless child came from this portal. But in the next episode they just forget about it.
Thank you for calling the Brendan stuff "cheating," because that is 100% the word that came to my mind the first time it was explained what all that actually was. Telling the audience they don't know everything, lying to them about what they're seeing, and then trying to do this reveal that nobody could have seen coming is the laziest most thoughtless storytelling you could find.
The only L in this video is your description of the scene between the Doctor and Ashad. "Now THAT's what I call an inner conflict" is such a m*****batory line from Chibnall that it makes me laugh every time I hear it, especially when Ashad agrees. We already got this information in the previous episode (through subtle and tactful writing), but it feels like Chris just can't help calling the audience stupid while giving himself a big ol' pat on the back for thinking of the first actually interesting villain of the era.
Yeah that Brendon part really took a bit to even stretch my suspension of disbelief. For all the reasons you listed.
3:10 Or alternatively, it would make more sense if the standard operating strategy for the Cybermen while fighting Human forces was to have weapons automatically set to stun so they can more easily capture and convert any Humans they encounter since I feel that Cybermen would view conflict with those that can be turned into Cybermen would be a waste of 'resources'.
Your head canon about their head... Cannons
I work on the assumption that the Master always expects to run into the Doctor, and just has a running list of things to say to them when they inevitably meet again. We'll never be rid of the Master for good, and I like that. The Master is probably my favorite of the Doctor's antagonists, because they used to be such good friends, and their paths diverged so greatly. And based on the overall characterization of the character over the decades, it feels like of course he was waiting and he knew the Doctor would turn up here eventually. He knows her, knows how her TARDIS works, and how she's likely to react to various situations. What honestly surprised me more than him showing up here was that he didn't show up in Flux at all.
Definitely miss the traditional two parters, while the two separate stories approach has led to some interesting episodes, for the most part it often leads to the main plot of the previous story being mostly abandoned, in the case of this story it's setup for a story that never happens.
Yes! We haven't had a proper two parter since Series 9! Really crossing my fingers that RTD brings them back
Ngl I thought Brendan was Ashads backstory the whole episode until it went nowhere. And then when we found out about the timeless child I was like oh… so Brendan is… the doctor? I guess? Like I logically concluded that must be the case but it just felt wrong still. Didn’t work at all
I love how you called it cheating! I felt the same way! Also, been watching for a while, just commenting for the first time! Love the content and reactions!
I was so confused by the Ireland scenes.
Isn’t Gallifrey jokingly referring to as Ireland? there’s a line in Human Nature where John Smith (10) is asked by Joan about his parents (Verity and Sydney)
Top 10 Brendans RANKED
I actually quite like the Brendan scenes not showing him regenerate because it's clear that to him he's still himself, even if his body has clearly changed, where the reaction from others was "wait...how are you alive?" at first but also works for the "wait who are you?" reaction of the first person to find a regenerated person. I do think it as a section wasn't served well enough overall though, and didn't feel as well paralleled as it could be, but it does build some interest at least, but I wish it had more structure
Completely agree about the unfair-to-the-audience use of Ireland to make it impossible to figure out what’s going on.
But I suspect that the reason for setting it in Ireland is Chibnall’s excessive focus on deep-lore fanwankery and him mistaking “remembering a throw-away line from 43 years ago” for “adding depth and context”. I think that Chibnall thinks that it’s a “clever clue” because two characters in Fourth Doctor stories thought that Gallifrey was in Ireland. And he expects that once it’s revealed, we’ll all be saying “ooohhh! The answer was right in front of us the whole time! I should’ve guessed that! What a clever way to drop a hint without completely giving it away!”
To which i say: BS. Maybe if Ireland had _never_ shown up or been mentioned in Doctor Who in any other context except the location of Gallifrey, _and_ Ireland wasn’t a real-world place that is in close geographic proximity to most Doctor Who stories set on Earth and the mention of which is unremarkable both in those stories and to typical viewers, _and_ it was a recurring joke, even a running gag, not something mentioned twice 40+ years ago and once more a dozen years ago, in all cases as a throw-away gag line rather than a plot point, let alone a significant plot point- _maybe_ if _all_ of those things were true, it would work. But when _none_ of them are, it’s just dishonest storytelling, at best because the writer misperceives what others remember and will enjoy, at worst because they’re pumping up their own ego by belittling viewers.
At some point, it would be nice to have an Irish Companion from the Past.
I'm glad you found a way to make the Cyber drones work in your 'head' canon. ;) XD
But here's another thing with the Master suddenly showing up: The last time we saw the Master, he was trapped in the Kasaavin dimension.
How the heck did he escape from there and wind up on Gallifrey?!
Am I the only one who, upon seeing the flying CyberHead drones, got a serious Toclafane vibe?
You touched a little bit on the Master appearing at the end and how on earth that's even happening, but relatedly it's never explained what the boundary actually is... Why is it there? Did it always connect to Gallifrey or did the Master rig it somehow? What happened to all the humans who went through previously? Are they on Gallifrey? Are they on wherever it connected to previously? Did it go through to random places each time? If so, that's a huge coincidence that it went to Gallifrey when it did. It's all just so not thought out.
I always thought the Ireland scenes were about the Lone Cyberman, so it was a shock when it was about The Doctor. 🧐
I had forgotten about the flying cybermen heads 😂
Funny that what people remember or forget from this one really does seem to be all over the place.
Needs more roly-poly!
Really love the start of this one , for once the doctor's " I am going to save all of you " routine falls flat , people die and we jump straight into the action as Ashad and his cybermen close in.
I have a personal theory about the origins of Gallifrey, I think the Time Lords were essentially human, meaning they came from Earth centuries upon centuries in the future after the planet was destroyed in, The End of the World, and settled on an unnamed planet, which came to be known as Gallifrey, and set about creating a new civilization which came to be known as Time Lords, and is why the deep down in the Doctors nature, and biology is why he as such an affinity for Earth and it's people. The Time Lords in their heritage were at one time human before they transcended their humanity to become the advanced "alien" civilization that they became, and in time it somehow became "forgotten", or at the very least suppressed by the Gallifreyan hierarchy.
I actually forgot which episode this was as some blur together (don't even let me try get new years stories in order)
Like, I agree with pretty much everything, sure, but did anyone else notice that in the last Brendan scene he's old but the other two men aren't any older than they have been??? That was really weird, and isk if it works with the timelord reveal from later, and it just bothers me. Idk, i know it's not a super big deal, but it's just weird.
It strikes me as a deliberately surreal moment to show that something is deeply wrong. I kind of like it actually.
@@CouncilofGeeks I guess I can kind of see that. Idk, I found it kind of distracting
In my opinion, this episode was like Chinibals' other episodes. It wasn't good, but it wasn't bad.
it was thematically connected to the doctors struggle with her own memories. It's point for point what the doctor went through being the timeless child.
The reason why the humans are killed rather than converted is because Ashad wants to create a new breed of entirely mechanical Cybermen. Therefore, it would make absolutely no sense for him to convert any organic life into Cybermen. It's explicitly stated, although it is confirmed in the next next episode. It's a mystery yet to be solved, in Ascension of the Cybermen, that's all. Inference is key with this era of the show; deducing information from the various clues in dialogue and suchlike to help build a clearer picture in your mind. Implication rather than explication, essentially.
Thus the worst season finale of Modern Who begins.
I just thought of something... Fugitive Doctor with Ashad as the villain. The intensity and drama would be immaculate. Now I want that to be a spinoff miniseries.
Oh shit it's Corlys Velaryon. Do I need to become an actor in the UK, they're just everywhere!
This was passable fun. First watch was interested in the Brendan stuff, second watch I was more interested in the human survivors stuff. The plot is still rough, and I don’t like the cyberheads, but beyond that the execution is fun enough. Like… a C+
after how good the two part finale was of series 10 with establishing the terror and threat of cybermen, and putting that danger at such a personal and humane level of consideration with what they can do to people and The Doctors response of simply being kind and to try, it really took away from the overall story with how this was overshadowed by TTC. I feel like you should have had either one or the other, but Chibnall doing what he does best tried to place them both together and honestly you end up with two narratives with their potential cut off. I'm not a fan of the whole TC addition, but if the ending two parter for series 12 made it a compelling and (bias showing here) understandable reason for a change in who The Doctor is then maybe the takeaway wouldn't have been so divisive.
Contrary to the previous couple (or more) episodes, I remember kind of liking this episode, though only a bit (enough that I'd be fine with watching it with others or if it was on TV, not enough that I expect to rewatch it on a whim). Didn't necessarily think the bad guy's plan was great and I really hated the subsequent episode so that sours everything this one did, but I was kinda okay with this episode. That's even despite some stupid moments with how "The Gang" fights the Cybermen, etc., but maybe it was just lowered expectations from the previous episodes or it caught me in the right mood that day, I don't know.
Then again, I also forgot about the "Ireland" cop story, which certainly does ruin the episode a fair amount, so maybe I just edited out my major issues. Actually, it may be dishonest to say I completely forgot about the cop story: I simply misremembered it as a much shorter montage in the finale, not a series of scenes intercut with this. As noted, they feel so disconnected from the rest of the episode, that it doesn't fit - it feels like Chibnall had to mash 2 episodes together late in the process of making the season, and felt he needed both parts to setup the finale (he didn't, this storyline does not fit well with the Timeless Child stuff anyway, it's way too clunky especially in metaphor and doesn't really tell us much that won't be explained in the finale) so he just intercut them both.
I , like everyone else, wish that it was just a cyberman finale , they always seem to play second fiddle to someone.
I adore Sasha's master but I wanted the cyberman stuff more.
I like the timeless children plot so I don't have the issues allot do but this is a messy episode that is entertaining but just a bit too messy to be a classic.
I didn't watch half of series 12 and I've never been given cause to regret it
I'm real close to this one on my watch through with my daughter. She still continues to be somewhat uncritical and says Jodie is her favorite Doctor.
Didn't Ashad want to get rid of the "human components" in cybermen? That may be the reasom why cybermen wanted to kill everyone instead of converting them... Kinda... It was revealed at the end of the next episode as far as I remember.
Indeed, so picking up on Vera's point, Chibnall could simply have included a line to explain it here.
1:21 you might even say a big finish
I really have given the entire Chibnall era up for lost - his show running/writing skills are so poor I can only imagine they're in bad faith, and so any effort on my part to find good in it is essentially me just revictimising myself. The contortions you (and many other Whovians) continue to put yourselves through to come to terms with this material just seems like so much waste of spirit - it is almost entirely bad - it is regrettable that any of it happened - and continuing to chew on it just expands the damage it has done to our hero's legacy. My daughter entirely gave up on Who during this period - it is irredeemable - I will never rewatch any of it.
Great review! Couple of points. I believe the whole bit about Ireland is an in-joke. Back in the Tom Baker years he would meet characters who would ask him where he came from. When he said "Gallifrey" they often responded: "is that in Ireland?".
(This could be from the Target novels rather than the TV show - I know the books better).
Doesn't Ashad want to convert all the cybermen into robots? (Which even the Master says is a rubbish plot!) Perhaps that's why they want to kill humans instead of converting them?
The Cyberman redesign is probably the best version we've had in the new series. On which point, Ashad's costume is a nice mash up of previous cyber costumes. His arm is from the Tenth Planet, the head is reminiscent of the Troughton stories, and the legs are Tennant-era.
To me people seem to forget or overlook the fact that chris chibnall is a classic era fan of the show and during that time from 63-89 the cyber men didn’t do conversion on humans in there appearance they only killed humans them doing conversions is something rdt came up with when he reintroduced them in season 2 of the modern era I do think them having the ability to regenerate after converting timelords is an interesting idea but badly executed making them essentially indestructible cause who would have the time to run through a full 13 life regeneration cycle in one battle and the metal timelord capes is like them laughing at us in an evil way cause it’s a reminder of who they converted to stay around
Ugh. The cyber drones.....can fly and move without any obvious boosters or steering systems.....yet don't have heat seeking technology.
Worse, they're not even aerodynamic! The Cybermen are technologically very advanced, but these about are the dumbest designs for ultra high-speed flying weapons one could come up with. And, for a famously emotionless race, it seems bizarrely egotistical that they should make the drones in their own image!
Woah!! I had literally blocked that Irish kid scenes out of my head. You've just reminded me and I really don't like it haha
This episode suffers so much from knowing what comes next. The first time I was so intrigued by the weird Irish people who don't age, wondering how it connected and thinking what if it was Ashad's origin or a cyber plot or something. And then it is nothing, just a lie that has no reason to be there. Such a disappointment.
This episode made me wait for the next, but the episode itself was forgetful
Chibnall wanted to make Jack Harkness father of the Timeless Child (that's why that Brendan character did not regenerate but returned to life Harkness style) but Barrowman's cancellation forced him to change the plans in Flux - and he created Vinder.
You have a source for that? That’s news to me.
🤔🤔🤔... ???
The Brendan story is the narrativised story of the abusive adoptive parent. It's intrusive because as we learn in TTC the Master was literally intruding on the Doctor's memories using the Matrix. If you felt that it was a distraction kind of irrelevant then I kinda understand why you dislike this two parter so much, I think. As an adoptee narrative, I think that the fact that these details about your identity come out of nowhere, are intrusive on your life, and have to be parsed in the context of multiple unreliable narrators, some of whom actively wish you harm, and limited records without context... That's kinda the point, innit?
Ok, so I'm going to get into this in the next review, but on point of the of paralleling the Master's invasion of memories: NOTHING about the framing in this episode or the next actually supports that. The next episode will try to claim that the Master was sending these memories to the Doctor, but they're not treated in this episode like something she is also seeing, they're just there. This is often how I feel about even Chibnall's good ideas: I can see how the concept could have been done well... but this isn't that.
@@CouncilofGeeks This is the one Doctor Who thing that I most strongly disgree with you about. I'm very much looking forward to your TTC review. I'll probably still disagree, but I very much appreciate your reviews. Maybe even more when your opinion differs from my own. Thanks.
This video reminded me how great this episode is. And if I just accept that the doctor is the timeless child this whole 3 part finale is really amazing. Series 12 was pretty good.