Should Knitwear Designers Retract Accidentally Similar Knitting Patterns
Vložit
- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- For Watch Barbara Knit Tee Shirts and more go to:
watch-barbara-...
To check out my knitting patterns visit:
My website at: www.tumpedduck...
My Ravelry page at: www.ravelry.com...
If you would like to receive my newsletter in your inbox click here: eepurl.com/bTpY9T
If you would like to continue the conversation, please come join the Watch Barbara Knit FaceBook group:
/ watchbarbaraknit
To support me on Patreon check out my page here: / barbarabensondesigns
****
The video I referenced as this being a continuation of can be found here" • Are Knitwear Designers...
Over the last six months or so there have been a couple of instances of designers showing off teaser images of new designs only to be challanged on social media regarding the similarities between their new pattern and an existing pattern by another designer.
I have had some deep thoughts about this subject and wanted to share with viewers some nuances they might not have considered. I would love to hear your point of view in the comments.
As a non-designer, I would really prefer it if people didn't retract their patterns. When I'm choosing which pattern to knit, I like having a lot of options: Maybe one designer uses a yarn weight that I prefer, or a construction technique that I prefer, or includes a design element that I want (or as you pointed out, is written in a way that I find easier to understand). I often find myself thinking, "Oh this pattern would be perfect if only this one thing were different." So if someone else makes a similar pattern that has that one different thing, I'm going to get that pattern! If I can't find a pattern that's exactly what I want, I might buy it anyway and make the alterations myself, but not everyone has those skills, and I'd rather get the pattern that's what I actually want. Isn't one of the joys of making your own clothes ending up with the garment you actually want instead of being forced to choose something that was mass produced in a factory for some mythical average human? Also, this is fashion we are talking about. That's how fashion works: Everybody is going to make their own version of whatever's trendy right now.
The "one thing different" is a good point I hadn't considered.
Thanks for this! I recently had an experience as a tester, about a week before publication the designer found out a much bigger designer had a similar sock. Our designer was going to pull… but it was the exact situation you’re talking about in terms of all the work and money. Also this new designer was graded to 5 sizes whereas the “big” design only had 2. Luckily she reached out to the other designer, who was gracious and lovely and told her to go ahead and publish with her blessing. So it worked out nicely!
It is great to hear that it worked out.
I completely agree with you. I don't think some people have any idea what goes on behind the scenes. You are all taking inspiration from the same sources for fashion trends, it's not surprising some patterns look similar. And like you said the pattern itself can be so different and can teach you different techniques etc
I'm glad the video clicked for you!
“There is nothing new under the sun”
I think you handled this topic very considerately and thoughtfully- I think also that it would take me actually seeing two patterns that are almost identical to even consider complaining to a designer. I think people sometimes focus on the self and competition in situations, like wearable crafts, where it’s just not a good fit. We share techniques and materials and ideas because humans working together is what creates things like the wonders of the world and because sharing allows growth of understanding that is so important. I loved this video!
I'm so glad you took the video as intended!
Thank you for this enlightening video! I appreciate the points you shared. IMO, it's petty for anyone to make a "big claim" that a designer's new pattern is a "knockoff". It's takes a lot of chutzpah to level an accusation like that. Squabbles have long existed within the art industry, such as with oil painting and watercolor pieces. How in the world can you 'patent' a landscape with a cottage? Or a seascape at sunset with palm trees and Adirondack chairs on the beach? Or a pride of lions on the African Savannah at dawn? OMG. You could not. But I digress. Again, thank you for the inciteful conversation regarding this subject. I agree 109% with the spirit of your video. Points well said. ❤
Excellent points.
love this especially your 109%%% ... ooops spellchecker didn't tune in there!
I really agree with what you and many others in the comments are saying. Also as a fairly new knitter it is nice to have options for the same style. I bought a pattern that should be simple but I'm having a hard time understanding the way that it has been written so I've given up on that specific project, but I found a similar pattern which is written in a, to me very easier way , so I'm now able to knit this sweater. (this is a basic raglan with a few embellishments, in how the raglan is knit) I would hate it if only 1 person was allowed to design a top down raglan sweater. So yes the finished item is similar however the way the pattern is written is vastly different.
Pattern writing style is huge and everyone is going to react differently to different styles. When you find a designer you like, stick with them!
Totally agree on writing style...makes a world of difference
I agree with you. It's the same with even classical music.
I can see that.
Short answer- no I don't think designers should pull their designs. Considering the "big designers'" decisions to pull patterns as setting precedent for smaller and newer designers to do the same is an important angle to look at. Ultimately, I'm happy to have options for different written patterns for what may look like the same finished piece because I struggle following overly wordy instructions. I tend to stick with designers I already like because I know I like their writing style.
Thank you Barabara 😊
Thank you for your thoughts!
You know, humans generally have two arms a neck and a torso. Knitting has knits and purls. Therefore, It is highly likely that many many designs will be similar and we should expect this to occur sometimes.
Exactly my thoughts.
Especially with the current trend of customers demanding simpler/easier to knit designs. Simple makes things super hard.
This type of thing is not specific to the knit world. Trends, lifestyle and technology cause ideas to occur to many people or organizations in the same timeframe. Even if one person has an idea first, that does not mean someone else cannot create something similar. Even copyright law does not copyright an idea. It copyrights the instructions or specific technology. Accusing someone of stealing a design simply because something LOOKS similar. Is behavior that resembles internet trolls. And one should never feed the trolls.
Oh yes. Think about photography .... there are how many pictures of the Eiffel Tower? Still, each photograph is protected by copyright.
With all the trends and how many people are making similar items at the same time I don’t feel someone should be allowed to claim that someone stole their idea. As long as you know you didn’t steal someone’s pattern I feel they should be able to sell their pattern. There is only so many new ideas. Most knits and crochet items look very similar.
They can totally look similar.
In 1969 my Mom taught me the fiber arts. I knitted a long rectangle and crochet a long chain. I laced the chain thru the rectangle forming a long coat for my Barbie...last year I found a Brazilian podcast, where the lady made the exact design for an adult.😺🌸
LOL, timeless!
I appreciate and agree with what you said. It would be a shame if after all the work put into designing a pattern, the designer would pull the pattern. Thank you for this episode. You explained it very honestly and diplomatically. I appreciate all the choices we have to create handmade items thanks to designers.
I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
I really appreciate your level-headed stance on this issue. I enjoyed the last video when you published it as well. Thank you for sharing this perspective!
Yours is such a down to earth channel and I really enjoy the content. See you at the next live! 🙌
Thanks so much!!
Not only is there nothing new under the sun but you get tuned into the latest colors, fashion trends, even emotional designing like having more relaxed design lines and even the current trend of practically revealing the whole naked body for God's sakes. So by osmosis of being very interested in making things, we tune into each other and it has nothing to do with plagiarism necessarily, it has to do with being "hip" to current trends and expressions. I remember saying to someone, white is going to be a huge decorating trend soon, or purple is on the horizon as a fave decorating color, same with coral. All these things happened as I tuned in, and even food trends. I made smoothies 50 years ago, grew sprouts and tracked health trends. I got laughed at and raised eyebrows throughout my life, after which others copied. Hope this makes some sense to help this subject. Many of us a very tuned in, that's all it is. I am so grateful for your input and expertise. I love your channel and respect how much you put into your work for us and for elevating knitting to the fine art it is!
Hi Barbara, I have heard of designers(big named) who have pulled their work and don’t know if they did so because of accusations or they saw something that looked like theirs, however, like you said, one could be written differently,as we know some designers techniques are easier for some to follow than others. Also, you can’t go around accusing people, as people tend to do in these modern social medias like to fly off. I myself knitted a simple scarf with garter just to use up the yarn,and a fellow knitter said oh, is that the #####? It may look like it but once you see what I did was very simple and didn’t have the cool edging, etc that the real pattern had.
In my opinion if you knitted your scarf off the top of your head it is your pattern. And is just as “real” as the other pattern.
Congratulations you designed a scarf!!!🎉🎉🎉
I know of at least two instances that were because of challenging comments on Instagram posts.
Thank you so much for this video. I just started writing crochet patterns. Though, I haven't published any of them... yet. This was a concern I had. My designs came from my head, not from someone else. It is a struggle to write the pattern out the way I made the inspiration. I know it is a design that is completely unique because I've never seen it before.
Also, on the realism side... how would different pairs of pants get designed if the next designer said, "That other design also has two legs. Guess I'm gonna have to scrap my idea."
I learned the hard way to write the pattern either before I start knitting or take extensive notes during the process. Trying to retro-engineer something you've already done is really, really hard.
I appreciate you adding in the explanation of how long the designing/publishing process takes, as well as the acknowledgement that many designers depend on publishing and can't just yoink a pattern because someone on social media said it looks similar.
Also, I think there's a huge amount of bullying that happens on social media to pressure the designer in question to pull the "copycat" pattern. You say you're worried that there will be an expectation of pattern pulling; sadly, I think it already exists.
I think you're right about the "expectation of pattern pulling already existing" and it is sad. *side note - I say 'yoink' too! 😆
I agree. It doesn't take much to set a precedent. I wanted to push back against it a little bit.
If you were to study styles of patterns you can see that there's only X amount of sleeve design X amount of neck design X amount of length it's isn't really stealing it's just that there's a they're limited on the how many styles there are out there and sewing and knitting and crocheting there are only so many styles you can use before you start running into each other
Thank you for your thoughts!
Barbara, you’re so gentle in your presentation. It seems to me that some people just like to complain and stick their noses into other people’s business in order to be important. They have nothing else to do but spew negativity into our happy knitting universe. There’s a woman’s name that currently describes this type of behavior.
Thank you for the adjective gentle. I was trying really hard LOL.
Unless someone steals the actual pictures of the same sample its really hard to tell if something is a copy cat. You would have to buy both patterns and really review each carefully. I would think that someone who made an accidentally similar pattern and who is receiving criticism might be able to make their pattern notes specific enough to clarify that the patterns have differences. On the other hand there are only so many ways to make a top down raglan sweater or a heel flap and gusset stockinette sock. I appreciate fans wanting to defend their favorite designer but as pattern consumers we would do well to consider these points and also maybe try to promote our favorite instead of knock down a similar design. And a private email to talk directly with a designer instead of a giant social media post with limited context might be a better option to understand what was or was not copied or inspired.
So hard to tell!
I've been working on a couple of really unique patterns - one lace, one cable. And these are "just" the motifs I've been working on.
I searched for existing patterns for these motifs and just could NOT find either. So I decided to make them myself.
The lace is in TO and after about 15 versions, I think I finally have the cable looking like I want!
The conundrum I have is that I''d like to publish a hat/scarf/cowl/sweater/mitten set straight off so that I could head off competition (the cable one is quite unique and think it might end up being used by others in their designs). As some of you reading this may know, you cannot copyright or lay claim to a stitch pattern (like pineapple stitch). But it's taken so much work for these stitch patterns, I'd like to get a jump on any possible popularity. Ha!
Anyhow, these discussions are always interesting
Thank you for joining in the discussion!
Good discussion on an interesting topic. At this point it's hard to come up with anything that is really new and unique.
Hard, yes. Impossible, no. But that's a totally different video that would be a bit of a rant LOL
Unless designers are going to design sweaters with 3 sleeves, there are always going to be similarities...
Respectfully submitted, thank you for sharing this perspective.
Thanks for listening
Ha - you said "grok"! :) Amusingly, I just saw a third version of the similar-looking item that sparked all this. Of course, this time, my reaction was not one of concern, but of curiosity on how the specific pattern might be different, and would more people enjoy knitting because of it?
It is such a good word, isn't it? Don't know how many people actually get it anymore tho. I didn't know there was a third ... I hope there wasn't a kerfuffle.
Very interesting topic! I can't really comment because I'm not that tuned into the workings of the knitting world....does that make sense? I'm still trying to learn how to knit socks! 😂 The designers that I have dealt with can be counted on one hand...with you being one of them.
Yes it does!
I totally agree with you. Well-done. There are only so many ways that one can design, for example, a v neck sweater with a double knit button band. I bought such a sweater at J Jill (a US women’s clothing store)a solid two years before a very popular knit wear designer published her very popular pattern- which I purchased and knit and then another very popular knit wear designer also developed one very similar- which I also purchased and knit. The two I knit were at different gauges and constructed very differently. On the surface, these 3 sweaters looked very similar. Did they both steal J Jill´s design? I doubt it since I am not sure J Jill stores exist in their countries. Let’s face it, a lot of people are drawn to this type of sweater. This knitting community has become pretty thin-skinned and, at times, seem all to eager to pull people down. I don’t condone stealing either - but there does need to be some rational thought behind these accusations.
Thank you for your thoughts. I always try to err on the side of extending grace to people.
Personally, I think either choice by the designer (to publish or not to publish) is fine, as long as they address it. If they come out and say “Hey, it’s been pointed out to me that my new pattern looks similar to x, I wasn’t aware of this pattern and I assume while they look similar there are going to be differences. And hey, if you like my work, maybe check out this other designer too, here is pattern y of theirs that I like a lot” or something along those lines, it’s all good. It only looks weird to me personally if they just completely ignore it.
I agree, it is totally up to the designer. My worries is when social media pressure removes this choice from those who cannot afford to make it.
Co-evolusion happens in every industry in the world. When patents happens, this happens also is looked at as well as the technology that is used inside the device. Unfortunately fiber arts has way less technology hidden inside but the process to create the design is as much a finger print as the circuits in a cellphone or programming language in a software.
Absolutely not!!! Several years back I watched a show about the origin of foods…specifically…who was first to come up with this and that? Since folks are basically the same regardless of what patch of dirt they call home, it was NOT surprising that a lot of food stuffs developed around the same time period across the globe. If I can pick a maple leaf off a tree, put it on some graph paper and trace it, then design pattern using a combination of knit, purl, k2tog, ssk and yo to make a scarf or a hat or a sweater or a blanket with ‘maple leaves’, then why can’t someone 10,000 miles a away have the same idea?
There have millions and millions of folks over the last several thousand years knitting…sweaters, pullovers, cardigans, vests, Willy warmers, hats, beanies, berats, scarves, cowls, mittens, gloves, socks, booties, blankets so it is NOT inconceivable that there are a bunch of folks sitting down tonight having raked up maple leaves or oak leaves earlier in the day and decided those leaves would make a pretty border for a sweater or a blanket and so they work out the design. Or they saw something on television or while they were at the market and decided to make something similar. Or maybe like me…I have a sweater that I picked up at a garage sale some years back. There are things that I like and things that I don’t so I’m going to use it as an inspiration to design my own pattern.
Barbara, you addressed the issue very precise and respectfully. I IS a complex issue, but I think conversation between the designers would be the way to go. I find the yarny community to be very gracious people and most of the time this issue can be resolved between the designers as illustrated in the comment by @fairygodfatherknits. It is definitely not fair to expect a designer to retract a pattern from publication just because another designed something similar. In my opinion people often speak before they think.
I am not sure how someone could accurately tell if two patterns are the "same" or a "knockoff just from picture(s) on social media. At first glance some pictures may look the same, BUT how one could prove that one pattern is "the same" as another without going through both patterns line by line is a BIG stretch for me. Yes, the designer who has been notified of a supposed "knockoff" would be wise to buy the other pattern or talk with the other designer to see how much the patterns are truly duplicate. There are so many ways items may look the same and be different. Your discussion of different writing styles is a very valid point. But, I tend to be quite analytical and1 would want to know what percentage of similarity actually exists. There are so many examples of similar concepts being worked on by different people at the same time. Just look at scientific discoveries if one needs proof. Anyway this is probably much more detailed than anyone asked for, it's just my take on the subject. Thanks for being willing to engage in challenging topics/ conversations Barbara.
Not being able to tell if they are the "same" doesn't stop certain segments of "super fans" from white knighting for their chosen designer.
Unless one was looking over the shoulder of another designer no design will ever be exactly the same. As someone with 40 years in the fashion industry many designs each season between designers have similar elements in their ranges. Unless a pattern is copied word for word, stitch for stitch then there is a problem. In short, no designs should not be pulled because people are seeing similarities with an other.
I can see how this is also an issue in the fashion industry.
I think it's a case by case issue. How similar is similar enough to be too similar? How many basic watch cap and toque patterns are there? Should all but one be retracted? How many simple drop shoulder sweater patterns are there, where the only real difference in appearance is the stripe sequence? Granny Squares in crochet, Mitered Squares in knitting. Sometimes the only real difference is the # of rounds or rows, but there seems to be no hue and cry when another pattern comes out.
Many designers charge for designs for cowls. But they themselves have taken the stitch pattern out of a stitch dictionary, and simply added top and bottom ribbings or garter/seed/or other simple borders. Do they really have a right to complain if someone else does the same?
As you pointed out, even if two patterns produce nearly identical looking garments, are the methods involved different? One may be pieced while the other is in the round. They may be in completely different yarn weights, and therefore stitch counts, and the difference may not be noticeable in the photos, particularly if the yarn has a heavy halo. Two sweaters may have different ribbing, different necklines, different sleeve and shoulder styles and different shaping, yet still look very similar in photos.
If you really feel you must raise a question, please do your in depth research first, and then converse with designers calmly and respectfully, in non-inciteful and non-accusatory language. And before you post anything claiming that Designer X's pattern is a rip-off of Designer Y's, get Y's permission to speak for them. They may not even agree with you. They may prefer that you clam up rather than badgering them as they'd feel like a fish out of water locking horns in a dogfight you started by by being an eager beaver with ants in your pants and having a cow because you thought they should smell a rat when they feel they don't even have a horse in the race and you should have let the cat get your tongue. Yes that sentence makes sense, at least as much sense as some of the incidents we've seen.
No matter what, a designer should not be bullied into not publishing or removing a pattern. One thing that cannot be tolerated is the immediate call to boycott a designer's entire line over one contested pattern. Usually the ruckus has been started by someone who's made no further investigation than to look, and probably not too closely, at a couple photographs. Then they bypass the whole conversation stage, and go straight to extreme measures.
Thanks for revisiting this issue. I'm afraid you could do several more updates before the problem vanishes.
Definitely case by case. Because, unfortunately, there have been instances of straight-up copycatting and I am not down with that.
I agree--anyone who makes a knockoff pattern and tries to pass it off as their own deserves our disrespect But that is not what is at stake here; it's similar designs and the notion that some random person on media claims itthe later one a knockoff.
Two further thoughts:
First--in knitting, there are always different ways to get to the same (micro-technique) or similar (macro-technique) results. At stake here are the latter. If the process is different, if the end result is similar but not identical, it is a different pattern!
Second--an analogy: What if this were the way cooking recipes worked? [Probably at some very highly professional level they level they might.] The way I cook, I read a few recipes and then do something that modifies a recipe or is based loosely some of them. If we take this to a silly extreme, could every knitter who modified or combined patterns be challenged and forced to rip out for not following some 'original' pattern to precision because someone on social media objected to their sweater or sock, etc.?
Thank you for raising the nuances of this topic.
There’s a ‘designer’ for spinrite who saves patterns and others designs on her Pinterest and then she makes the exact same thing as a pattern that spinrite uses and pays her for to sell their yarn brands. It’s been made so obvious to me that she does it and it’s infuriating as a knitter and crocheter myself that she’s doing it.
Unfortunately, if the "designer" simply looks at the pattern and writes their own instructions that produces a duplicate of the original there is technically nothing illegal happening.
I don’t think pattern should be retracted if it was done accidentally. There have been a couple times where I have wanted to make something and will buy one pattern and just not be able to wrap my brain about how they’re going about the construction, only to get another pattern that looks very similar and just the way they word things clicks with me and I can complete the pattern. If it was a legitimate coincidence, then no, I do not think a pattern should be retracted.