Concrete Jungle Gym: Building Traversal in Marvel's Spider-Man
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- čas přidán 15. 08. 2021
- In this 2019 GDC session, Insomniac Games' Doug Sheahan provides an in depth view into how the traversal system for Marvel's Spider-Man was created.
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I really hope at some point they give us an “advanced” mode in one of the games. Just unleash the brutal real physics and let the dark souls among us suffer through it
amogus
@@ozguroguzbcak8203 amogus
That would be an insane mess to try and maneuver.
Spider-Man loses his arm. Game over.
Want it so bad. And in vr… but I’ll take just pure physics. Come on insomnia, give it to us like the “cheats” in ratchet and clank, you don’t have to justify it any further than that!
Traversal that compliments the character and entertains the player, that's how everyone should feel in a superhero game!
This is fascinating what measures they've used to protect the player from themself but as a player who prefers fewer safeguards I wish they would have let us exert more literal control
There are a ton of different spider man talks on gdc, so many that I assumed they had run out of new ones to upload, but this one is my new favourite.
I know a lot of people would rather have the more advanced, momentum based version of the swinging, myself included.
But I think Insomniac made the right call in streamlining it and making it easier to grasp for newcomers and less experienced Spider-Man players.
I played Spider-Man 2 The Game to death back in 2004, but playing it again last year didn't feel as good as I remembered.
You had more options for traversal, but they were 10 times more difficult to pull off compared to relatively similar moves in later Spider-Man games.
By today's advancements & standards, pulling off moves in Spider-Man 2 is unnecessarily complicated than it needs to be. And I'm fairly confident that Insomniac is capable of creating something for Marvel's Spider-Man 2 that is much better and allowing for a more advanced mode for the experienced players. They already proved with Miles Morales that they have taken some of the feedback in terms of the extended tricks system.
There is a setting that goes aftwr the swing assist steering.
So.
Looks like we can make it hard and advanced this time.
The amount of talent at insomniac is great. Love it.
Heh, protecting the player from themselves. I appreciate it tbh.
I really felt like Spider-Man as my intentions were clearly communicated to the game most of the time.
Much thanks to these guys!
There's a great documentary on CZcams about how Dead Cells protects the player from themselves, highly recommend giving it a watch if you enjoyed this :)
But... it seems like we'll have the option to make swinging hard.
Which is good for those who desire it.
In Miles Morales you can do instant Charge Jumps and use them at the end of point zips instead of Point Launches to go backwards or straight up. Hope the sequel keeps those!
What do you mean
@@adrianmartinez8365 if you put Charge Jump on a Shortcut, you can press the Shortcut and get the jump instantly without needing to charge it. If you press that instead of X for a Point Launch (which is a handspring forward) you do the Charge Jump (a jump straight up or in any direction you press).
@@VonZuben
Brooo no way, I didn't know that
@@adrianmartinez8365 I can't put links in the comment section of someone else's video but I have a vid on my channel called "Free Roam With Instant Charge Jump!" that shows off some of what I mean. I use it in free roam and combat almost all the time now.
@Mr Guy Links have to be allowed by the channel, either by default or by approving the individual comment before it is made public. I'm assuming this channel doesn't allow it.
I've got a platinum trophy on this game. I like the idea of feeling like in a movie, very smooth, and if you get the flow going swinging for hours feels like minutes. But sometimes I feel like I have training wheels on. Don't correct or help me, I wanna learn the hard way, so that I can become a master at it. Or give me the option to adjust how big the training wheels are.
Example. Being a pendulum where the like automatically gets shorter. Sometimes drastically, when I was too close to the ground.
This makes it feel like, all of this force and speed being cushioned. Let me hit the car, or at least jump from it.
Give us some options on how much of an help we want.
I'm being over dramatic here, just to explain the frustration I had. But except this small detail. Amazing game, grate job, and can't wait for #2
This was a really interesting speech! I learned a lot! Thank you!
please for the next version add an advance mode. let me have more control
being able to hold onto a swing and do a full 360 spin is not much to ask for. if i was able to play spiderman 2 as a child.. its not an issue now.
literally
When you was able to do 360° in cranes
Holy grail video right here
I would love to try a version of the game with all the assists turned off
Does anyone have any insight on how they "markup" the ledges for Spiderman to locate them? And how they search and find them in their scenes? I only do programming as a small hobby (still learning). I'm using long, thin, colliders to "markup" ledges and using a collision volume to locate them, but I doubt the professionals are doing it that way.
I always hear the work "markup" or "tag" for ledges from talks for Assassin's Creed, Horizon, Uncharted, and this one. But there's not much detail about the implementation of them (from my limited search)
Markup is used specifically to avoid having to use colliders. Effectively in this case the markup for buildings would simply be a basic structure which defines the height, width, position, basic geometry, etc. of the building. These markup structures would be stored in some sort of spatial data structure (that's a big topic for you to dive into in and of itself), so that, when it comes time to check for swing points, in stead of shooting out rays or collision sweeps you can simply query that spatial data structure and say "what buildings are near me" and you'll be very quickly returned a nice list of buildings in your immediate area. Once you've got that list you can do some quick calculations as mentioned in the presentation for finding out where the best swing points might be on those buildings.
Hope that helps :)
@@adamfaiers8080 Thank you very much! I had a hunch something like that was the case, but your answer definitely gives me a clearer direction on what to look into! I shall find out if my attention holds throughout that rabbit hole.
Great question and great answer. This is the kind of CZcams comments section that I love to see ;)
Game dev of 16 years here. Markup is a general term for placing hints of some type in the world. The nature of the hints depend on the data you need. They could be points, they could be lines, they could be shapes, etc. Typically they are some combination of those objects as needed. For instance, they might use line segments along the top edge of buildings to represent attachment points in a more optimal fashion than a bunch of points. Just as important as the type of data used in your markup, having them in a structure that facilitates fast spatial searching is really important. For that you can use kd trees, quad trees, etc.
The way you describe is actually not bad. You are taking advantage of an existing spatial data structure, the physics engine, to do spatial queries to find your hints. That's a fine way to do things, especially for a hobby or indie game that doesn't need to squeeze every ounce of performance out of the hardware.
@@JeremySwigart Thank you! Glad to hear that my approach isn't that bad! Thank you for elaborating on specific data structures, which is unfamiliar territory for me. It's always great hearing from experienced developers.
I like the offset of the swing anchor point.
Being someone that has no idea about developing a game... this is insane! Insomniac has some talented people over there! Wow
I've watched a lot of GDC talks, and you'd be surprised how complex even the "simplest" seeming part of any game can be to create. Insomniac are insanely talented though.
At 19:00 I really wish there was an option to disable that course correction... The zig zagging feels more right to me and I always felt that the straight lines the game goes for felt off (though still very fun)
I don't think disabling assists without enabling more and new features would make the experience more enjoyable. The fewer assists people want for the swinging, the more the swinging would require extra controls like line shortening, line pulling, more weblines, etc. It'd be cool to have that stuff, don't get me wrong, but it's not a minor tweak.
yeah it feels more realistic and more swing arc like
@@VonZuben I'm pretty sure Spider-Man 2 (GCN, PS2, Xbox) didn't have all these assists in it, and it was great.
If you've played it, it actually becomes clear that Spider-Man PS4 is heavily inspired by that game (not a criticism).
@@corphish129 I don't know the level of assists it had but it had some of the extra controls I mention.
I agree, for me it looks more realistic when you go closer and closer to buildings while swinging because that's where you're attached to.
Great game! The devs did amazing job!!!
Now this is an avengers level talk
I hope in the sequel, they'd add 2 options to swinging: Assisted and... "Realistic" or something.
Basically, the assisted works as it does now, but the "Realistic" removes all the safety boundaries and simplifications that aid with the flow.
The idea is raising the skill ceiling, removing automation and assigning that responsibility to the player.
If a player doesn't want to struggle with swinging, gaining speed and avoiding obstacles that break flow, they can just toggle the swinging to automate the hassle. But vice versa: You allow people to struggle which's mastery leads to far more satisfying gameplay.
Nerd.
This and Miles Morales have IMO the best traversal system in all of gaming. Love it
I would like to imagine a swinging system where it has a Tony hawk style system but instead it’s web swinging. With the more grounded physics of skate 3, so we actually have to try to not hit buildings because there’s damage if we fuck up and we feel that development of your form like Pete did and miles. You could also have independent swinging like L2 for left arm and R2 for right arm. So with all that you could be going as fast as possible down a street but you want to make a turn that helps maintain your pace. If your going left you could specifically aim a web to the corner of the right building, let your self swing to the right . Hit L2 while still holding R2, then you slingshot yourself into the direction you wanted to originally go to. It would truly feel amazing especially if there’s damage from falling to far or hitting a building to fast.
Love the talk, very informative and interesting. This Spider-Man game is by far the best that's ever been made. Well, I suspect the sequel is as good or better, but I can't get my hands on a PS5 to know for sure :/ Either way though, this game is the reason I'm about to apply to Insomniac. I have a CS degree and was going to avoid the gaming industry entirely because of all the horror stories I've heard, but man how cool would it be to be a part of the team that produces games as fantastic and innovative as this one. (Also Insomniac's office is about 15min from me haha).
wish you luck, in another life i would have liked to do the same
I actually like thinking about where to attach a web. That's what makes Spider-Man so much fun to watch in an action scene of a movie, seeing how his mastery of his webbing plays into the physicality of the action.
My favorite game of all time. Love learning how this masterpiece came together
When I see more BS from online "arm-chair-developers" who talk about "greedy game developers", I'm going to link to this video. The amount of money and time that goes into AAA video games like this is insane. It blows my mind that AAA games are still locked at $60/$70, when AAA games were often MORE expensive 20 years ago.
18:41 I love this realistic web swinging, there should be an option to turn off assistance in the sequel please please please
As much i want that as well, the demographic for people wanting "realistic" web swinging might be very low and would probably affect the experience of the game, especially with people who loved playing the first one. Granted, keeping that as an option would still satisfy that itch, but I wonder how much work would it take and in the end, would it be worth it?
YES YES YES!!!!!
holy cow they're sharing it? uber gdc talk
THIS IS THE ONE BOIS
Would be interesting if they got fighting game players to test future marvel games.
Oh man, Zip to Perch and Zip to Wall used to be 2 separate moves? I wish they had kept that! It's super frustrating to just miss the target for a ledge and end up in a zip animation that you _cannot_ cancel and that leaves you like a sitting duck on a wall unable to dodge attacks.
yeah literally
I think this talk could have used more video snippets
🙏
Some of these early-development swinging videos look so, so much better than the final product imo. Man, I really wish they let you customize the swinging in the sequel
Houdini FTW
They've got that SSD now. Time to remove the speed clamping so all the momentum cancels go away.
"I'm stealing your math."
17:19
36:13
A lot of the assists they used could be removed if they gave players more control, like ability to climb up webs or choose which hand to swing from.
S-M games live and die by the swinging mechanic. I don't care how good your story or graphics or even environments are, if the swinging sucks, I don't want it. Good job, Insomniac!
I might be hallucinating, but I remember in Spider-Man 2 there was an option to have each trigger on the controller be a hand. When you squeezed the trigger, web would come out of that hand. This allowed you to do crazy stuff anchoring yourself to two points (two hands) and really, REALLY controlling your momentum and direction.
@@saharasara542 no, I played Spider-Man 2, and there was an option to have two trigger swinging
Never played with the other option, so you’re probably right too, I dunno
@@PALWolfOS Sara Turner is right, Spiderman 2 only had one single button dedicated to swinging but the game had two different options for swinging:
1) pressing R2 would shoot the web and releasing it would make spiderman let go of the web
2) pressing R2 would shoot the web from one hand and by pressing R2 again spiderman would shoot a web from the other hand and keep both webs anchored until you released the R2 button, in which case spiderman would let go of the the first web.
As for the "left trigger, left hand - right trigger, right hand" thing only The Amazing Spiderman 2 game had it.
'we wanted to make the game available to as many ppl as possible' *makes it a ps4 exclusive*
Developers might be their own worst enemies when it comes to game testing - but so are focus groups. Players are notoriously bad at accepting new challenges that they have to raise themselves to the level of - especially when invited to criticise the game for functional or structural unfairness.
Sometimes you just have to trust that your game is good enough - which Insomniac's SM game was - to challenge its players and let them feel like the real webhead as opposed to some guy with training wheels on. Let your players elevate themselves. If speed runners and games streaming in general has taught us anything it's that you should not aim for the lowest common denominator when it comes to games design.
Alternatively - make the game real, and give the option for an easy-mode for smoother traversal.
In fact, my experience with the game was that the physics of the game really offered me no choice to boost my speed through proper use of gravity. You can test this whenever you want by jumping off the Empire State Building and launching into a swing whenever you're near the ground. In less than a second you will be at the same speed as you were had you just started from the ground instead.
@@TheRealPrecaseptica ok and? Like do you have evidence? Why do you push developers do "advanced" stuff for people they are not focused on? Lmao
Yeah, from what I can see from videos - now it both lacks the physical correctness AND is kinda boring.
What am I doing with my life..
I feel you man
Insomniac needs to do better in the next game with regards to swinging and traversal. Sadly, I have my suspicions that all the calls for better, more physics-based swinging fall on deaf ears. The devs get a solid B- for swinging.
Boo hoo
@@mhwtf5965what I meant to say was “teH sWinGimg iS pErfEkt InSomNiAC NaILed it”
@@aaandyc5032have you tried playing Spider-Man 2 recently? Janky af. Horrible.
Oh man... your worries shall be extinguished when the game is released.
Insomniac does listens.
To all sides... even if we're against each other! They will provide the perfect Spider-Man experience.
*I. Bet. That.*
Where's the No Way Home trailer unrelated but related company?!!
Wasn't swinging physics accomplished in like, Spider-Man 2? I remember them talking about special swinging physics a very long time ago and this guy is talking like this is the first Spider-Man game ever made.
Spider-Man 2 didn't really use any 'true' physics at all. Everything was just animation frames and canned results, trying to create the illusion of physics.
@@Bovrillor Facts, this is MUCH more in depth. However what they did @ the time of spider-man 2 was also incredible for it's time.
@@Bovrillor that's completely wrong
The fact that he said the swinging in this game is physics-based is just hilarious.
Phsyics-based, yeah, as in "when you jump off a rooftop, you fall down, the y-coordinate of the character decreases".
They tried so hard to make it accessible to a wide audience and make it feel/look like a movie instead of a game that the traversal is beyond easy.
The game is holding my hand like I'm some kind of toddler who can't learn on his own. Playing is supposed to be a learning experience and you can't learn without punishment for making mistakes. You hit a wall, a car, whatever and you lose health.
What they did is so boring, I could just watch a walkthrough of the game and even then fall asleep halfway through because there's no chance for punishment in swinging. There is no fear of mistakes and therefore no excitement for victory.
I assume your comment will be disliked to oblivion at some point, but yes. I couldn't agree more.
The traversal has this surface-level "feel good" flow to it, and that's it. Calling it a fully developed mechanic could almost be considered a stretch.
I think it may their design goals. It plays like what a movie looks like
Spider-man comes across as one of those games that you get to just chill. It's easy for any kind of gamer or non-gamer to play the game and enjoy it for the visuals, the gameplay effects and storytelling, but there's no depth to the gameplay system in itself, whether it's combat, stealth or traversal for that matter.
The game did deliver on the fun experience spectrum definitely and Iam happy for it, but I really hope they add more challenging options in the sequel, atleast giving the higher difficulties a creative change other than "less health, more enemy damage".
I highly disagree that it's "boring", but I think the best option here would be to give us options when it comes to swing difficulty. They could label it "Spectacular" and "Realistic" or something. Their design goal was to make it as accessible as possible and make it feel like what a superhero movie looks like, which I think they nailed fantastically. However, more options are always a good thing and it would be great if the sequel could offer a wider range of experiences for those that want the challenge. I also want to note that the ease of web-swinging in the game perfectly dovetails with the in-game lore that Spider-Man has been doing this for 8 years at this point... so to have you take control and have him smashing into buildings and face-planting every five feet would completely go against that conceit and look ridiculous, as he's supposed to be a master at it. And I'm sure plenty of people would be bitching about that too.
@@savageplanet8299 you have a fair point. They met their design goal, and that’s great. And I’f add that the game also has more going for it than just the swinging.
I agree that just bumping into everything would be silly anyway.
But there already exist challenges in the game that make swinging around mechanically more challenging,like when you have to go between planes of electricity for example.
They could’ve added other elements that made the swinging more challenging while also keeping the accessibility.
SpiderMan 2 swinging still better. This is good though. Hopefully the swinging is closer to Spidery2 swinging
Idk why is better when ps4 is objectivly better than ps2
The swinging sucks. It lacks proper physics and momentum. And it's way too easy.
Wait until the sequel comes.
They have fixed most of your problems.
Not to be a party pooper but Spider-Man 2 already had this on PS2.
Kinda but it wasn't nearly as precise like how you can zip to a point instantly.
1:11
we wanted to target it very broad audience, proceeds to release it on play station only
good talk between
PS4 exclusive 'broad audience'
He's talking about the accessibility of getting into and enjoying the game despite your skill level.
They literally couldn't make this without it being exclusive.
This is what we call good business for the consumer actually
Really hoping they just copy the swinging from Spider-Man 2 the movie game and add their own flair to it. The system now is too easy and gets boring very quickly
There is a setting for swinging and its steering assist.
Soo... we might be able to make swinging hard again.
Which is good.
When he knocks an enemy off a building it would have taken you guys two minutes to code a tracking animation that auto shoots a Web out after them to make it look like he's not killing people...
Just sayin.. I could do it. Why can't you?
That does happen lol
@@leon55monkey Enemy line trace from capsule straight down.. If air hit animation is true and line trace blocking hit is false play spiderman anim montage.. Web catch...
You could even set it up to play random anims.. Then the Web the enemies get attached to is different.. For a single enem a hanging wrapped up Web on the side of the building.. For multiple enemies.. A Web between two buildings that catches them...
I honestly don't know why you didn't do it... It would be so incredibly easy...
Totally breaks the believability of him being spidery bro.. Everything else was spot on.. Except for that major oversight..
Spiderman doesn't kill people...
@@troyhayder6986 What are your thoughts on big stinky farts?
@@pangilli1880 my opinion is they stink..just like your opinion and you in general...
@@troyhayder6986 What are your thoughts on big stinky farts?
No feeling of weight_!!
The character is not hanging on a web but on a stick_!!
In some places the cobweb clings to the air_!!
By the way, no one has done better yet_!!