Velodrome || Trying to find Speed
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- čas přidán 15. 11. 2023
- Some aero testing to become a faster athlete.
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Video by Talbot Cox
/ talbotcox
www.talbotcox.com/ - Sport
What is the CDA of that wicked mullet?
😂 I would say -8
Hi, loving that your looking at all the angles to get to the bottom of this. Food 4 thought:
I wonder if you've tested any of this after a rp swim or being fatigued or in a race.
The big difference we see on TV when you race is your sway from side to side almost like a snake. This must affect aerodynamics hugely, also when racing your body is more tense which would also affect the wind flow around you.
When your fatigued or tired I wonder if you would get different results.
This actually makes sense
Not gonna lie that’s a good point. I’m not educated in that area but it makes sense
Or that in a race there is wind and different roads surfaces
Think this comment hits the nail on the head. Also notice your knees point outwards in races. Basically you are testing one thing then riding another way in a race. Just look at footage of magnus or Sam laidlow to see how smooth they look when racing.
Lionel, you are an inspiration. Its not just fans bringing up your rocking on the bike, the former pro athletes who are commentators talk about it when you're on the stream during the race.
Mr Lionel, you are the only CZcamsr that when you post video I am exited immediately after reading a title
You rock side to side. Keeping it in line and not rocking will help
You rock side to side more than others. Its a much bigger issue than your cda.
It was especially noticeable when you raced Jan 1v1!
I am rooting for you as always!
I was going to say exactly the same! At the Velodrome he looks much more in line than outdoors.
That might be a body structure thing rather than position/lack of core stability etc
@@Naah732 yes! But maybe he could ride with assymetric crank arms if thats allowed. I have no idea.
He rocks more when he's tired. So he should work on staying aero after a flat out swim, because he'll need a close to flat out effort to stay in the front swim group.
@@Naah732it's only a fatigue problem for him, he showed that he can hold a straight position doing short runs here
Always a good day when LS uploads
So glad you’re going to the wind tunnel and leaving no stone unturned, got a good feeling you’ll be flying next year!
Dear Lionel, Thank you for sharing your journey to enlighten us all in your pursuit of excellence. I hope 2024 will bring you the rewards you are looking for.
It's because when you race, you wiggle your torso around on the bike like a worm. Your upper body is everywhere and that punches a giant hole through the air. It's visible in all your race videos. On the velodrome and in that test outside, you were perfectly stable.
Also a position that is fast and comfortable for a short time might not be comfortable for an Ironman distance and force the rider to switch to a less efficient position. I want to point out just how comfortable Kristian Blummenfelt looks on his Giant Cadex and yet he is able to be at the front of most races. Curious to see how well Kristian would fare with his setup on velodrome. I doubt he has an ultra aero position, and yet it fits him best.
In fact one thing common to best riders is how comfortable and relaxed they look on their bikes. Paula Findlay is another example where comfort is the most striking aspect of her ride and yet she is one of the fastest cyclists in half ironman distance.
Quite a few people are saying this, and it makes the most sense. He looked rock solid on the velodrome, but 4km fresh is far easier than 90km after a mentally challenging swim under race conditions.
Luckily he can train this out of his riding style in race, if he is prepared to read comments and look at past race footage...
His Upper Body Cant be everywhere at the same time
I don't think it's possible to get rid of the wobble. Physiological, I think he needs the wiggle to produce the high watts. Sitting still can be exhausting as well.
@@fritsgerms3565except he's obviously rock solid at the velodrome, no wiggle, putting out the same power.
So he clearly can generate that power without the wiggle.
"Thorough" is his new favorite word.
"Thorough" is the new "undoubtedly" 😁 Loved the video!
Lionel we need more videos, almost daily if possible. Going from what your day to day is all about and some deeper stuff like the testing with disclosure of all the data. Would be great! You are motivating asf!
Appreciate the specific info shared here. CdA, power, specific adjustments, run structure, outcomes -- others might've been tempted to just put together a video montage and call it a day, but talking through the reasoning and learnings is really interesting to the rest of us.
I have watched a lot of your videos. Watch race footage back and observe how much you move when you race and you are pushing harder with that kill or be killed focus. You do not seem to be locked in to a position, during races. We know that small changes in side to side or sitting up or lifting your head is often the difference between testing and racing. It may come down to increased specific core strength and you focusing more on holding this position you know works for you while you are racing - because of course you are doing that during testing. Even during your hour record - watch how much side to side you produce at race speed - and I would imagine - more significantly - how much your knees move in and out side to side - so away form and closer to your frame. I bet the drag caused by sticking your knees out during races is a huge penalty. Simulate that during the November tests and you might find your way forward. I think you are just creating too much turbulence through constant shifting around pushing race watts and with the race focus of going hard over holding your position. Keep your knees in
I am so invested in this! Haha!!
Loving the videos!!!
Cannot wait to see the end product!
Very interesting…thanks again for sharing!
Great to see you finally engaged with these guys Lionel. Only way is ☝🏽
Thanks Lionel, I apprechiate you sharing your experiences perfectioning your position on the bike. I believe it's also a question of comfort, especially for the Long distance. Even if it doesn't have seemingly a change in therms on the aerodynamical efficiency.
I wonder why there was no mention of saddle height or cockpit height. normally what you do first if you wanna go to extreme positions is go as far forward as possible, to get as high as possible in the back and as low as possible in the front. then you work your way to the most sustainable position where you can push good power, while still trying to maintain it as aero as possible.
Great content
My name is Jonas, and I never hear it other than when someone is talking to me, so this video made me look around a couple of times, lol.
Surely something like crank arm length would be worth testing too?
See if you can get a drone up while testing outside to analyse body position in testing. In a similar was to a video swim analysis.
I am to be clear a complete noob when it comes to aerodynamics, I have no scientific knowledge on the matter.
But when I watch you race, you pedal with your knees open. That must cause a significant drag if you ask me.
The images on the velodrome you seem to be more still and knees don’t go as far outside.
Great stuff Lionel and love how thorough you are examining yourself. Suggestion from my side to consider: your q-factor seems to be quite wide (width of your foot positioning). Not sure if you are using pedals with a power meter build in but those have a higher q-factor by default. Perhaps worth the investigation?
Love those POC helmets...I wish I could rock them but I don't think I have the head discipline!!
Dear Lionel, great video, amazing to see your dedication to excellence and finding speed. One aspect I have observed when watching you ride over the many years I have followed this sport: your cadence is very low and your movement on the bike is noticable. Movement can be derimental to aerodynamics, in particular if it occurs at a frequency that is similar to the one created aerodynamically (described by the Strouhal number) and this can cause drag. My suggestion is to shorten the crank and/or increase your cadence. There is an optimum somewhere and it looks you are outside of it. Just a suggestion.
Very interesting info yet I’m sure frustrating for you. Good luck in your continuing pursuit
No changes to front end height or different helmets. I guess they are settled there. No changes to crank length, saddle height, cleat position. Maybe that only affects power and comfort.
Don't f.n touch the cleats . I've decided to "adjust" my cleats after having no issues at all and can't find a comfortable position for 2 fn years now
What about body composition? I assume that pros would consider changes to body composition to improve aerodynamics? That would have a lot bigger impact than small changes to position.
I’m not near as you Lionel and I would ever be but TT cycling is all posterior chain glutes hamstrings lower back upper back .strengthen this areas..deadlifts sumo squats 45 degree hypertension etc you want to scratch every detail to be the best and you will be ..focus also on those areas 🙏🙏🙏🙏much respect wish you all the best to you and your family
your style is distictively diff than others. outside its apparent you rock to the sides more than others, probably it helps you to push powers to the paddles but hearts your cda.
Finally standardized conditions! Great!💪🏼😎👍🏼🚀🚀
How about doing the testing with yaw angle in the windtunnel and skipping the tests outside, which has a much higher standarddeviation (less reliability/consistency with changing rolling resistance, wind etc.)
Cool test, awesome video, thanks!😊👍🏼
Thanks for that great video; sometimes it looks to me the bike seems to be to small for you ;
Hi Lionel, thank you for another great video. Are you planning on testing wheels as well?
Very interesting to see your search for speed. Wonder how muscle usages plays a role in this. 360W with almost no resistance, velodrome, I think can not result in the same speed as 360W with resistance, outside. That means that muscle fatigue can play a role if you try to reach the same speed outside as in the velodrome, even with the most effective aerodynamic setup.
have a great time in "my" country...germany 🍀
Please Talbot, bring back the good old training videos with motivational music…
Need some wind tunnel testing to back this up.
What about trying different helmets? I believe different helmets give different results relative to the hand position so high hands may work with a different helmets. Different crank lengths also as this can change saddle height and therefore back angle. You should also test with race bottles to make sure they work with the position.
must be difficult to be lionel… he is a professional triathlete, and a very accomplished one, who have always showed his heart out and always have been trying to improve, and every time he uploads a video, there is always comments of people trying to teach him things or bring him down… leave the guy alone, he is an uncontested legend of the sport
and you are the uncontested biggest fanboy
@@zynktv3057 "i am a person who enjoys playing games and entertaining others, if you enjoy my videos be sure to watch them all and subscribe"; thank you Zynk! You must be another fat and frustated guy that comes here to say how lionel must act, and that only proves my point :D
While there will always be meanspirited people, that just criticize him for the sake of making him look bad - there are valid and productive points being brought up here.
I think you're idea regarding poor aerodynamic performance at yaw angles >5 degrees is a good one. Definitely I change my bike setup depending on what the yaw distribution is likely to be on race day. Your team should be able to tell you what knick-knacks you can put on your bike that are likely to outperform at double digit yaw angles.
😅 Yep, you know you're starting to understand drag when you can pick the best bike setup based on what the forecast predicts race day yaw distribution will look like. Not one in 500 athletes understands how to change their bike setup based on yaw distribution...or even knows what their race-day yaw distribution is likely to be.
There's some stuff to do at the front, but the business end of pressure drag is at the back. It's not so much the saddle position as much as the resulting lower back angle that impacts the CdA. Next, shoulder mobility and the front end that allows you to be comfortably narrowest. A is just as important as Cd.
As a scientist, I approve of all this experimentation 🫡
Would be curious what the results would be if you’re doing this during a pursuit?0How does the racing dynamic change the results.
Can't help but think bringing the seat back might have helped bring the knees closer together during your pedal stroke. Could that account for the improvement in AD?
How about a Wind tunnel? Going there next?
Try: other Custom cockpits with fairing, different tires, different suits, calvs, different bikes/brands
Would have been useful to tried calf sleeves potentially?
and cockpit, bottleholder behind saddle, 80mm infront
There is one word to find for you Lionel. Its called wind f'in....tunnel
Areocoach Wheels and calf guards.
man is dedicated to his craft
It's really interesting, but I'm also wondering why you don't seem to test with the exact same setting as you will in race... in races, you had that big water container on your chest...
Indoor velodrome will not give you what you are seeking: lower drag in a triathlon, which is outside in turbulent wind conditions.
I fear that correlating position just to CDA (as opposed to CDA AND RPE) is quite meaningless. You found that CDA values were quite uniform over position parameters, but this doesn't mean that you can hold that power equally across positions. Unfortunately it's not easy to gain those metabolic metrics out of a short 4km run... This is a difficult data acquisition task.
Perhaps now you could focus only on maximizing comfort and power output, since you seem to have found no variation in CDA.
Why didn’t you test the chest faring?
😄 No need! It's faster, my bro, it's faster...
@@avoycendeether8869 yea it is but seems like a variable worth testing here… like size of faring used, high in the chest, low, wide vs tapered etc
🐼
Any advice for those of us without access to a track, aero sensors like the Notio, or different helmets and cockpits to try out? I want to be fast at time trials, but it seems like every change I would make to test is more expensive than the last. Changing my elbow pad height costs $50 to gain or lose 15mm. If I try that and want to go lower or higher, that's another $50. Try an aero helmet? Have to buy one. Don't like it? Buy another one. I don't even have a proper TT bike yet, just my road bike with clip ons, no way I can afford to spend $5k+ on various bits and pieces to fine tune my position. Is there a cheaper way to do this?
Do a roll down test on a hill
At the beginning - where it sounds like you are - just ride in the TT position a lot. That will make more difference than any positional changes.
Definitely get a tt bike. It's completely different to a road bike
@@MR-wh5wp It's on the list, for sure. Just don't have the funds at the moment, but I'm hoping to be able to find something by next summer. I have a couple big races on the calendar already and I would hate to lose by any margin that could be attributed to my bike. Some of the differences are huge though, there are guys my size and power getting 2-3 mph faster for the same effort, that's absolutely insane!
When I look at your cockpit and compare it with those of other professional athletes, there is still potential there, right?
Greetings
8cm behind the bottom bracket? Surely you mean MM not CM
mm and cm. Was going to comment that also, that adjustment in centimeters does not sound very 'pro'.
I think he meant cm. No sense in changing a few mm.
@@larrylem3582 lol mms make a huge difference cm is just insane lol. 8cm in bike terms is like 8 trips around the sun. Nobody adjusts a bike fit in CMs that’s crazy.
So cool :D
- not only very "interesting / entertaining" for us aspiring to do PR's, + AG'ers seeking insights from the top pros. But also really really good knowledge sharing. - Think there's no one else where - Context & content / form & function is so well delivered :-) Thanks!
Why are you not testing other suits, socks, helmets, camelbacks, bottles?
Shout out to Jonas! I did my bike fit with him
Hey Lionel I hope Sebi can help you out now that’s he’s retired. As friend and expert In aerodynamics. Hopefully it works out for you . We want to see you win
So does this mean you would have had a more productive session if you did 280 watts? Ie easier to see where to make gainzzz? That’s frustrating dude. Pumped you keep pushing. Can’t wait for the Germany video next year!!
He said the opposite. No sense in testing at a low speed if you're not going to race there.
Get in the wind tunnel
A long boat is a fast boat, so having your seat back and your extensions far forward is most probably going to lower your CdA, as you found out.
Were there any measurements of power lost/gained depending on setup?
Hey lional great video. I just had one question. I see other triathletes like Magnus Ditlev have a one piece TT bars. I was wondering if you were thinking of doing that or why aren’t you?. Just curious thank you
Cause he's canyon sponsored and using the crappy bars that the bike came with
He needs every watt he can find to make up for his swim deficit.
Surprised you tested without any waterbottles, or a camel back?
He's only testing for positions and not equipment, assuming he has done so and knows the optimal equipment setup
faster triathlete or faster timetrialist
Lionel, why don’t you have the cockpit setup as all other canyon pro athletes? Like Sam laidlow or Daniel etc ?
And you did have another cockpit when you tested outside
you are looking much more streamlined on the track. Less movement on the bike and holding your legs together… less rocking and rolling… could be some stability issues
13:35 comment about going under 0.2 seems to make no sense ? You had the disc wheels on the whole time already
I have only ridden 50kph down hill and I've watched your videos so I figured it all out. Raise the zipper on our skin suit 1mm, twist your wedding to the right 2mm and tighten the straps on your left cleat ever so slightly. Presto!
I don’t get why Lionel spends massive amounts of time and effort on technical matters with swim and bike and his run is horrible technically.
Why not apply the same approach to running? Why the blind spot?
I am not simply criticizing. I’ve offered and offer again to help him with his running form for free!
He spent a lot of years trying to fix marginal improvements in cycling in swimming. And I applaud that.
The number of basic errors he’s making it is running in terms of form and relaxation symmetry, etc. there’s dozens of problems and they’re huge even a non-coach could spot many of them
But he needs in my view to shift his focus to fixing the run because that’s where he’s losing the most time and that’s where he has massive room for improvement. Not incremental improvement huge improvement.
I think he's losing the most time on the swim. He's working on that as well.
honestly what are you talking about guy.... if you ride at 360W on the track and go 49km/h, you will not go 49km/h at 360W outside on the road with all of the environmental factors. did you actually do this and test at the wrong speed or are you just trolling the lionel cult?
Aren’t you coming out of the water 2-3mins behind everyone? No genius here but you’re 10seconds slower per 100. Fix your technique.
Has Lionel given up on improving on the swim? I'm a huge fan but this seems unproductive from a triathlon perspective. He is already one of the strongest cyclists in the pro scene....
He’s still grinding on the swim. He’s just trying to get some gains for free (without more fitness) from aero improvements
Being a strong cyclist, as indicated, is pointless if your CdA sucks. They don't race on a trainer. He needs to make up 1-2 minutes on the swim...but he can make up 5-10 minutes on the bike for the same power if he gets his CdA down. Getting 1-2 minutes on the swim might take an extra 20k yards a week for months or even a year of physical effort while sacrificing bike/run training. CdA fixing doesn't really impact recovery/training. So...what he is doing is extremely productive.
From historical data perspective it looks like Lionel is at least 2min behind to top in 70.3 and more than 4 behind in 140.6.@@trepidati0n533 . I agree with you overall, that the bike is probably more productive way to improve, but the swim deficit tends to be not just 1min.
Why are you keep saying that . Sam long or Magnus are strongest cyclists who can make moves alone . Lionel unfortunately is just hanging in there . He was the strongest few years back now he's losing to Trevor who trained for like 2 years.(I'm not talking about occasional descent performances of Lionel)
So good to see you with the Canyon associated guys. Stay the course Lionel, don’t be frustrated, be happy that you’re on a better path now. "He who has a why to live can bear almost any how." Remember your “why” i.e. 70.3 World Championships 2024!