Great episode so far! I paused at Eye of the Gods to mention, have u noticed that the rolls correspond to the Chaos Gods' sacred numbers? 6 for reflexes, 7 for resilience, 8 for rend and 9 for magic! I just noticed, that is so cool!
@@gwell2118 THe design team old and new have always showed a great deal of passion for their secret favorite child, Chaos. It is what drew me to them way back in 5th ed fantasy and has made it so i always have an army of chaos. It really is awesome to see them throw these fun touches in like they really are enjoying putting the book together.
*chat disagrees with Vince* Vince: opinions are subjective and I will fight for your right to hold an opinion different to mine. *Co-host disagrees with Vince* Vince: You are wronger than it is physically possible to be, a creature so wrong it is impossible to call you human any longer! Love it.
Daemon Prince: give him the talons base, make him a monster (no trait required, now benefits from despoilers trait) make his heroic actions monstrous rampages. Boom, suddenly he has a role. Then just bump him up however many points. They could battlescroll this and keep the scroll mostly the same.
I mean you may as well take Bolstered by Chaos and go Despoilers anyway for the 14 wounds and Monster keyword, you get your rampages at the end of the charge and your heroic actions as usual, no? I would honestly like to see Despoilers get reworked into making your individual Daemon Prince general super buffed (like being eligible for Eye of the Gods), it makes no sense to me why an army composition devoted to a DP leader encourages you to take...more DPs? They're supposed to be super rare, elite of the elite champions of the gods and now they're running around in groups?
So happy that the iron wall is back. Time to bring out the hunchback warriors. But everyone should definitely email Mr. Workshop and respectfully ask them to reevaluate that Daemon Prince warscroll. I think we all want that dude to be awesome.
Surprisingly i've immediately liked the Demon Prince, because i've interpreted him as a good support piece in Legion. I've given him an Arcane Tome and i've used him as a good source for mystic shield, fight-last spell + double charge with Belakor to remove something, mark-dancing to give him access to the whole spell lore or to make him fight first if the fight-last spell was dispelled.... I agree that it is not great, but i've found him useful as a support piece.
Great show guys, has taken me all day on and off between jobs hobbying to get through it but I do love these longer shows! ^^ hehe. Glad to see that the trend with 3.0 books to have more flavour for the faction it's written for has stayed true here. I don't play S2D myself but this seems like a decent and fun book for those playing it and to play against. :)
Good idea to put the various mark buffs into that table at the start. Sad about some warscrolls (Daemon Princes too weak, Soulgrinder still just 1 attack on its main gun) and some changes (Psychic Kitty and Crusher no longer being monsters - so much for my Despoilers idea). But still some really cool stuff in this book. And lots of cool list options. Cabalists look enticing to me. (Hello, Tyler!) But I am also not giving up my Despoiler dreams yet. I assembled a Sorcerer on Manticore while watching this video. Down the line are a converted Soulgrinder and two of the cool new Daemon Princes... Not the most powerful subfaction choice, but I will have fun with it, I think. Fun fact about the biggest base size in AoS (it came up recently elsewhere): The 170x105mm base gets used by the Black Coach, Arkanaut Ironclad, Mortek Crawler, the two Stardrake variants and Glutos.
Chaos Warriors marked khorne, with a khorne banner and doom sigil with +1 att from not controlling the objective or being WW opponents territory. Chefs kiss
It'ss a pitty the Tzeentch spell doessn't work with rally as in: Pull someone out of combat so they can use rally. Since Rally needs to be used at the start of the Hero Phase x_x Imo GW should ASAP rewrite the Deamon Prince Warscroll and add it via FAQ.
4:02:00 You didn't mention, that Darkoath savagers are not Cultists. I believe that changes some potential synergies? They do however interact with the Cieftain and Warqueen.
King Arthur and the Knights of Justice..... man, I was trying to remember the name of this programme the other day. Fantastic stuff. Also, great run down Vince
@@VinceVenturella This was a big one ideed! The book seems great, just need to fix the Bloodstoker and Bloodsecrator to ensure a high variety of lists. To be fair, this Battletome is almost scary to me: as a Johnny player I have recently written 50+ tournament lists for my Sylvaneths, with way less warscrolls and personalization available, so I can't even imagine how much time I would spend on this (but I won't go to the dark side). My only hope is that the different builds will be balanced, so we don't only see Knights of the Empty Throne or Host of the Everchosen, since these are the least interesting to play against. Cabalists, Despoilers, Ravagers and Legion of the First Prince seem way more fun in my opinion.
Can we talk about how Theddra Skull-Scryer can be a three cast wizard in Cabalist list after casting with her on a 10+, a decent retinue rule making her tougher than most inexpensive wizards, and a really decent warscroll spell. Seems like an extremely effective way to use your Draw on Power heroic action. The only set back I can see is not being able to make her master of Magic for reroll cast which we all feel will be taken away soon.
Anyone else having problems where spacific points in the video aren't loading? I'm good up until 30 minutes in then the video stops. Same point every time. I even restarted CZcams and my phone. Same spot. After that is sparratic, I keep needing to do the 10 second skip forward. (P.s. all other videos on CZcams are fine from what I can tell.) Sorry if this is something your already aware of.
Same thing happened to me from about the 31 min mark when I tried to watch the video on my iPhone. But it seems to be working fine now when I watch it on my laptop instead (Firefox). Maybe it's OS or browser related?
@Vince Venturella ya, for me, it starts at 30 minutes and 2 seconds. Then, it goes for about 3 hours where it will stop at random spots. After 3 hours and 26 minutes the problem disappears completely. Very odd. Also It doesn't matter what resolution it's on. Whether it's 1080 or 144, stops at the same places.
Good gravy, I remember that show @1:46! I don’t remember the name but the football players that become knights of the round table and the quarterback’s name was Arthur! I feel like that was a fever dream I had!
If they come out with an FAQ for Daemon Prince that is Sword or Axe and Talons, what would your take be? Because it's odd to me that they changed it so much from what it was and from what it is in 40k (even though one game has no bearing on the other).
If a hero becomes a Demon Prince, keeps traits and artifacts, does it also keep previous Eye of the Gods roll results that last for the remainder of the game?
Fantastic vid and LOVED seeing Jordan on it. One little correction though - preeeetty sure you don't need a hero to issue the Mark command abilities, they only say 'must be received by a StD [Mark] unit'. So no reason a unit champion can't issue it to their own unit.
Super excited for this book, always wanted to run the cool guys (Warriors/Knights/Chosen/Varanguard) but the rules didnt really excite me. This one does, so first Chaos faction for me! Will do some cool lava bases and OSL for first time aswell which will be fun Great review with the best guest! :)
👍 You we're always right Vince, pressing buttons is fun. Hopefully the Centaurian Marshal will be good one day. I'm still gonna run my Centaurian Marshal's raptoryx flock though, even if I am begging to have my teeth kicked in 😁.
If you ran a pack of darkoath chieftains/warqueens you could keep them together enough for the cabalists ability and since they can fight in sequence like the savage big boss you might want to. Although you might want a different subfaction for that.
About Splintered Fangs, maybe put the MWs on 6s to wound instead of to hit and change the MW to "in addition" With 30 attacks they go from 5 MWs to 2.5 "in addition". It also reduces the effectiveness of added attacks (mark of Khorne / Bloodsecrator / etc...)
Big hype for this show, and this book! Sort of surprised you called it a Johnny book, it feels much more Spike to me. Obvious power in the scrolls and most things Just Work (TM). Also surprised you didn't give Everchosen an A, since I think it's extremely strong even post-nerf. You make strong points about the Daemon Prince, though, which is a shame because I love the model.
Glad The Iron Wall is back - that's what I have in my collection, so for me all previous versions of this book have been annoying and lacklustre (Marauders? Bleh!). So this is great. The time of chaos is upon us!
Are Splintered Fangs more damage per point than Thralls, if you're using them in an army intended on maximizing their output? Because it seems like they might be damn close.
Unrelated to the topic of the video (or, perhaps, semi-related*), is there any chance you'll do a Fixing Hedonites episode at some point? They have one of the best ranges in AoS and I know they're one of your favourite factions, so I'd love an episode of you and one of your two one-and-only co-hosts (or both) discussing how you'd design a new Hedonites Battletome. *Trying to come up with paint schemes for an undivided S2D army, I keep coming up with schemes which I dismiss as "looking too much like colours", which in turn reminded me of the Hedonites Christmas box I have in storage for when they become not-awful.
The daemonprince may be bad, but I'm still going to run one, cause why not. Not having the talons alongside his other weapons is such a drag. They should have made him a duelist that can fight hero monsters effectively. As it stands, I'm not taking wings so he gives the immune to battleshock, and I'm running warriors and cultists. I wish it had more protection from shooting, but what're you going to do?
Bringing back Splintered Fang in Ravagers is so obvious. The cool play is brining back 6 Darkoath Chieftans as Ravagers is just keyword bold DARKOATH, and you round up the models you return.
I'm not sure that the shenanigans with revived Splintered Fang and snakes actually work. The snakes can only be revived with a Serpent Caller, but only 1 in 10 can be a Serpent Caller, and a half-sized unit doesn't meet that minimum size requirement (just as has been established with banners and musicians). When you revive Splintered Fang, the new unit can only have the default models unless the unit was originally reinforced. It doesn't even get a unit champ, because these don't work the same as they do in normal units. On top of that, only slain snakes can be returned. A revived unit doesn't have slain models.
I love the positive take on Legion Vince: it gives me the perfect excuse to go hard into an Undivided Be'Lakor + Eternus army for my new S2D (also thanks for introducing me to the abbreviation S2D, I'd been using StD until now...)
Couple of thoughts… With regards to the Tzeentch spell and as a general epistemological principle to apply everyday life. If a set of initial assumptions lead to an impossible situation then one or more of those assumptions are wrong (or in this case look for an interpretation of the rule that doesn't lead to an impossible situation). How would the Daemon prince look if you could take two of the weapon profiles? With the Splintered Fang I think the most flavourful way to balance this unit would to make unmodified to hit rolls of 1 cause a mortal wound on the splintered fang unit. You can't play with snakes and not expect to get bitten. What would it take in your opinion would they have to do to make the cypher lords cultist unit worth taking?
1) A fair point. 2) It would be slightly better, we mentioned it, but at least it could be better against unarmored targets. 3) That'a fun fix for sure. 4) They would need a totally different ability that gave them more of a role.
@@VinceVenturella It seems to me you should be able to do something with the cheapness and the ability to travel over other units while moving. Either by baiting your opponent into wasting movement to engage them or by partnering them with another unit, having them charge over the unit allowing them and the partner to engage the target unit from opposite sides?
Thanks for the walkthrough. I’m new to the game and the faction and this helped me in choosing the weapon configurations for the units I’m assembling right now. On a separate note, Vince, you mentioned that you’ll be coming to the UK for some classes. Would you mind giving me some details about that? I’d love to participate
I feel like leaning TOO much into splintered fang is gonna be a mistake most of the time because they themselves are easy enough to lift even in ravagers with shooting or magic. Bringing them back on an opponent’s turn means they’re stuck out and killed again before they can move and charge. They’re still great, but the meta is going to adapt and piece these guys out so better to put them in the solid scalpel position they deserve and run between 2-4 squads depending on your build.
Evaporate when you look at them though. While hearthguard are fairly hard to remove with their 2 wounds a piece, 4+ ward, 4+ spell ignore and 4+ rally (including buffs). They are slower too though. But yeah atm the serpent guys are over tuned.
@@cyriltournier5784 all of that ability comes from a hero with in 9 of the unit, as well as an artifact. Your pitching strong combinations from a book with elite non battle line units against battle line chaff from another book without any buffs
@@balemoran3168 I'm well aware. But I think you were comparing a bare unit against a fully buffed unit. With that said in the right subfaction the snakes can come back to life so...
@@cyriltournier5784 it's just the unit + mark. Fully buffed they blow hearth guard out the water. +3 inch to charge and I'm sure they can get to 70+ attacks. 11-12 mortals and then what 30 armour saves.
Hello! I was wondering if anyone has the answer to the following questions as I can't find it anywhere online the few answers I found/got were contracting each other. 1- If I play under Knights of the Empty Throne and choose to make 1 Varanguard model my general, does it lose the Battleline status and can I reinforce it (block of 6)? 2- If I can keep the Battleline role while also having it as a Leader, I know that I cannot take a Command Trait but I'm assuming that I can still give the Artefact to an other hero? 3- For the Battle Tactic where the General must kill an enemy hero, does it have to be this specific Varanguard model to land the kill (having to roll individually for him) or if the unit lands the kill, it will count for the Battle Tactic? 4- What does it count as for Battalion purposes? Is it a Battleline unit? Is it a Sub-Commander (Leader with 9 wounds or less as the model has 5 wounds) or Leader (as the unit has more than 10 wounds)? Trying to figure out what Battalion options are available to me with this (especially for 1 drop).
@@VinceVenturella Thank you very much for the answers! Someone apparently knowledgeable also ended up answering those in the AOS Discord last night and unfortunately some of his answers were contradicting with this here (he said that the unit counts as Sub-Commander for battlelines and that the model itself has to land the kill (so he would have to roll separately from the unit) for the battle tactic. I'll go with what you wrote here for now with my games but I think they'd have to FAQ some of it as each time I've asked, I got different answers (for question 3 and 4) so I think that a lot of people are confused about how this works.
As always Vince, great 👍 job. I look forward to this every week and you guys keep the hobby MOJO going. You guys should time things with Doug from 2+ so we get that sweet sweet lore and the game play.
I think i prefer the Chaos Chariot to the Gorebeast. Its cheaper, its BL, it does its MWs on the way in so its more reliable, and its *not* the unmodified charge roll, so it takes charge bonuses well (hello Bloodstoker + Daemonic Speed). I think the Gaunt Summoner could work in Cabalists. Yes it cant use the Heroic action, but you dont expect every hero to be within 3" anyway, and it does get the extra spell, so it's immediately a 3 caster. It's not amazing, but its a decent way to have 3 casts from 1 hero slot. Give him MoM and Arcane Tome and he's a 4 caster with +1 and a re-roll.
I very strongly feel like the mortal wounds on the splinters fang are a mistake. GW has made "poison" profiles wound on 2+ in a lot of places. Without mortal wounds but still wounding on 2+ they would actually become interesting and not broken. Very weird
Thanks for the analysys, makes AoS so much more digestible for a newbie. One question I have is about the varanguard. My eyes kinda slide over the models when I look at them, and I remeber in some vid you mention a way to "fix" them. Would you have any advice on how to make varangaurd less busy/easier to lok at?
Perhaps someone can help me out: Splintered fang. If they're in squads of 10 & you bring them back to a squad of 5. I understood RAW - "One model in 10 may be a Snake caller..." - so if you regen them you aren't able to get the leader model back (And then he can't call other snakes back to the unit).
I don’t think you’re restricted. What that qualifier means is that you can’t have “multiple snake callers” in a squad of 10, but you can absolutely bring him back in the squad of 5.
I see that the majority of the slaves line is totally out of stock right now. Is that mostly popularity of the moment or is this supposed to be because we'll be getting new models in place of these? I'm starting a new slaves army and most of it is out of stock lol.
@@Dorkenmore I'm right there with you, friend, I decided to jump in with the new box and make S2D my 3rd army! "Thunderhorse" will be playing on a constant loop. 🤘
Some food for thought. I think most people toss the idea around that melee armies can never be top tier, but the top 5 armies the last year or two have pretty consistently had strong melee armies there, so I think it's maybe a bit inaccurate to say that's the case. Also, even just compared amongst other melee armies, I think some of the scrolls are just... Top notch, to put it lightly. Hard to make accurate predictions with mathhammer alone and no stats to back up, but I agree with Jordan I think this will likely be on the stronger side, since there are plenty of other armies that are melee only and also do well, and I think this out melees most of them on paper. They also have access to lots of cheap screens which is also a great luxury for very elite armies like this. Also - this I think will objectively dumpster other fair armies. Stuff like slayers, OBR, and maybe even giants IMO I don't think have the tools to kill these guys. Lastly, it has much better built in mortal protection than most melee armies which means it should fair much better against ranged matchups than many other melee armies.
Hi Vince great video, what do you mean by "faction locked" for Archaon and Be'lakor does that mean you can only use Be'lakor in legion of the first prince and not ravagers for example?
Does the Demon Prince not get Eye of the Gods if he's undivided? I was excited to take one as a general in Legion with all the extra heroic actions, thinking he could beseech himself for free every now and then...
Not really, it's just a classic scaling problem with the 6's to hit MW. You just get too much value out of the whole thing. THe way to fix them, is to make them an exact clone of Dark Oath, which are very good, but not bent.
Ignoring that previous to this book, StD rules were spread out over not less than 1 million different books, what would you say about the complexity of the new faction? Obviously less complex than before, but is it too complex or just right? Especially given that you had to put out that table at the beginning to summarize just how Mark of Chaos worked.
Can anyone explain to me the situation when i build ogroid theridons with one handed axe for musician/standard bearer, does it count as a Great Axe Weapon or Falchion? Thanks for any help :)
I'm confused about the Tzeentch spell. I mean, of course I am. You say you can pick a target somewhere on the battlefield. But don't the core rules say, that "range ... wholly within X" means the unit you pick must be wholly within X" to begin with? The spell does not make sense that way at all, but I don't get why it doesn't follow the usual casting core rule.
@@VinceVenturella Aha, see? that's why we need great people like you guys, who can actually comprehend what they're reading. To my defense, english isn't my first language? x)
Re: Mindstealer.... How much would you pay for a unit that made any bravery 8 unit have a 41.67% chance to strike last when it charges in? Apart from all of death, all demons and most decent or big heroes. A lot of other great units are bravery 8 or less. 72% chance to stop 6 pigs hitting you? 58% chance to stop most stormcast hitting you (annihlators, fulminators etc) Kurnoth hunters and bugs are also bravery 7. The list of bravery 7 and 8 units is quite big. Would you take it if the ability was a just on a 5+? coz that's that 33% chance , works on everyone but worse than the current rule against bravery 8 and below. It sucks the kitty is no longer a monster. But it does have the standard SCE hero attack profile, 10 wounds for 95pts and the dominate mind ability. I think it might still be worth a look. Competes with 80pt cultists of course. High death representation in the meta probably drops it out of "competitive" contention. But if there's not too much death around or your play vs a lot of order and destruction, it's not too shabby. Ideally I'd like it to be a bit cheaper - like 80pts to compete with the cultist units properly, or up to 100 or 110 but stay a monster. Or like 120 if it kept the -1 or -2 bravery aura.
Love this breakdown. Yeah my thoughts were from the POV of a tournament list, where the prospect of playing multiple games vs Bravery 9-10 makes it rather unappealing to take; but you’re right: in general, most Bravery is still 7-8 or less, which represents decent odds of getting some value at some point out of the Mindstealer’s ASL.
This does not make sense to me...why would you not get the weapons choice and the tallones and claws...sorry if I don't get it...I just re-read the warscroll and do not see this???
Have they ever live patched a new Warscroll for a dog shit unit before? Outside of it got a brand new model (Belakor at that time) or new Battletome? I think the Daemon Prince is just going to be terrible for about 2-4 years. 😢
I paused this at the Damned Legions section because despite thinking that a 5+ rally for this army which I love is awesome I honestly hope that Rally could just be removed from the game all together. It is SO counter thematic. "Oh my mortal men just got stomped" *toot*toot* (magic horn) "Yay! I have a bunch of men back!" BS. This shouldn't exist outside of a death army and even there it's annoying and probably a waste of a dice roll and time on the clock. I'd think if GW wants to keep this stupid Rally Rule that they should at least make it thematic something along the lines of: hit rolls of 1 for rallied models automatically wound their own unit. Or, rallied models have -1 to hit & wound rolls because they've got reanimated brains that don't think so good anymore. Most rules in the book have a +/- choice about them: Charging, moving, piling in can all be a positive for your army or a bite you in the ass negative for your army. But, Rally is all positive. It needs to be rebalanced or removed. Sorry that was long winded, thanks for reading this far.
Great episode so far! I paused at Eye of the Gods to mention, have u noticed that the rolls correspond to the Chaos Gods' sacred numbers? 6 for reflexes, 7 for resilience, 8 for rend and 9 for magic! I just noticed, that is so cool!
That's a really nice touch!
Yeah I noticed that. It just really shows a lot passion went into making this book. Hands down one of the best Battletomes made in years.
@@gwell2118 THe design team old and new have always showed a great deal of passion for their secret favorite child, Chaos. It is what drew me to them way back in 5th ed fantasy and has made it so i always have an army of chaos. It really is awesome to see them throw these fun touches in like they really are enjoying putting the book together.
Thanks for the shout out, yo! Emma is definitely both insightful and enjoyable to talk to. 💪🏽👹👍🏽
*chat disagrees with Vince*
Vince: opinions are subjective and I will fight for your right to hold an opinion different to mine.
*Co-host disagrees with Vince*
Vince: You are wronger than it is physically possible to be, a creature so wrong it is impossible to call you human any longer!
Love it.
Being friends with Vince is a crucible that burns away weskness
@@RadioFreeHammerhal it's been interesting to see Tyler grow into his new role and start biting back.
there are still 9 gaunt summoners, as per the disciples of tzeentch book lore section, eater of tomes is currently reforming in the crystal labyrinth
Daemon Prince: give him the talons base, make him a monster (no trait required, now benefits from despoilers trait) make his heroic actions monstrous rampages. Boom, suddenly he has a role. Then just bump him up however many points. They could battlescroll this and keep the scroll mostly the same.
CO-Signed.
I mean you may as well take Bolstered by Chaos and go Despoilers anyway for the 14 wounds and Monster keyword, you get your rampages at the end of the charge and your heroic actions as usual, no? I would honestly like to see Despoilers get reworked into making your individual Daemon Prince general super buffed (like being eligible for Eye of the Gods), it makes no sense to me why an army composition devoted to a DP leader encourages you to take...more DPs? They're supposed to be super rare, elite of the elite champions of the gods and now they're running around in groups?
Can’t wait to watch
Just saw the video length 💙
Thanks again team!
Hopefully one year I’ll catch you down under at CanCon
I really like the idea of the meme list of undivided champions just going for 4 or 5 of em then turning them to daemon prince 😂
So happy that the iron wall is back. Time to bring out the hunchback warriors. But everyone should definitely email Mr. Workshop and respectfully ask them to reevaluate that Daemon Prince warscroll. I think we all want that dude to be awesome.
Yeah like wtf is that 4+ to wound on the sword
Surprisingly i've immediately liked the Demon Prince, because i've interpreted him as a good support piece in Legion. I've given him an Arcane Tome and i've used him as a good source for mystic shield, fight-last spell + double charge with Belakor to remove something, mark-dancing to give him access to the whole spell lore or to make him fight first if the fight-last spell was dispelled.... I agree that it is not great, but i've found him useful as a support piece.
Great show guys, has taken me all day on and off between jobs hobbying to get through it but I do love these longer shows! ^^ hehe.
Glad to see that the trend with 3.0 books to have more flavour for the faction it's written for has stayed true here. I don't play S2D myself but this seems like a decent and fun book for those playing it and to play against. :)
Good idea to put the various mark buffs into that table at the start.
Sad about some warscrolls (Daemon Princes too weak, Soulgrinder still just 1 attack on its main gun) and some changes (Psychic Kitty and Crusher no longer being monsters - so much for my Despoilers idea). But still some really cool stuff in this book. And lots of cool list options.
Cabalists look enticing to me. (Hello, Tyler!) But I am also not giving up my Despoiler dreams yet. I assembled a Sorcerer on Manticore while watching this video. Down the line are a converted Soulgrinder and two of the cool new Daemon Princes... Not the most powerful subfaction choice, but I will have fun with it, I think.
Fun fact about the biggest base size in AoS (it came up recently elsewhere): The 170x105mm base gets used by the Black Coach, Arkanaut Ironclad, Mortek Crawler, the two Stardrake variants and Glutos.
I was so happy to see Jordan! Just need to fix mic smh.
Chaos Warriors marked khorne, with a khorne banner and doom sigil with +1 att from not controlling the objective or being WW opponents territory. Chefs kiss
Starting my Slaaneshi themed Slaves army this morning while listening to this. :)
I find the comparison between splintered fang and gutrippaz particularly funny, even at their new 160 point price
It'ss a pitty the Tzeentch spell doessn't work with rally as in: Pull someone out of combat so they can use rally. Since Rally needs to be used at the start of the Hero Phase x_x
Imo GW should ASAP rewrite the Deamon Prince Warscroll and add it via FAQ.
At the VERY least, allow him to use one weapon plus the Malefic Talons. At the VERY least.
Agree completely.
How the Chaos Marauders have their own subfaction over the Ogroids baffles me 😂
See you at Warhammer Fest!
4:02:00 You didn't mention, that Darkoath savagers are not Cultists. I believe that changes some potential synergies?
They do however interact with the Cieftain and Warqueen.
King Arthur and the Knights of Justice..... man, I was trying to remember the name of this programme the other day. Fantastic stuff.
Also, great run down Vince
Had to drop off the live after ~20min, didn't expect 4 HOURS AND 22 MINUTES of video!
Alright, better get started...
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts. THis was a big one. :)
@@VinceVenturella This was a big one ideed! The book seems great, just need to fix the Bloodstoker and Bloodsecrator to ensure a high variety of lists.
To be fair, this Battletome is almost scary to me: as a Johnny player I have recently written 50+ tournament lists for my Sylvaneths, with way less warscrolls and personalization available, so I can't even imagine how much time I would spend on this (but I won't go to the dark side).
My only hope is that the different builds will be balanced, so we don't only see Knights of the Empty Throne or Host of the Everchosen, since these are the least interesting to play against. Cabalists, Despoilers, Ravagers and Legion of the First Prince seem way more fun in my opinion.
2:23:20 A STD general with a mount named "Draco-syphillis"? Well played, GW.
Loved "The King Arthur and the Knights of Justices" shoutout
You get a gold star for knowing the reference. :)
Can we talk about how Theddra Skull-Scryer can be a three cast wizard in Cabalist list after casting with her on a 10+, a decent retinue rule making her tougher than most inexpensive wizards, and a really decent warscroll spell.
Seems like an extremely effective way to use your Draw on Power heroic action.
The only set back I can see is not being able to make her master of Magic for reroll cast which we all feel will be taken away soon.
Anyone else having problems where spacific points in the video aren't loading?
I'm good up until 30 minutes in then the video stops. Same point every time. I even restarted CZcams and my phone. Same spot.
After that is sparratic, I keep needing to do the 10 second skip forward. (P.s. all other videos on CZcams are fine from what I can tell.)
Sorry if this is something your already aware of.
Interesting, it loads up for me, I am not sure what's going on there.
Yeah I have the same issue stuck at the gaunt summoner section
Maybe it needs to be re-uploaded
Same thing happened to me from about the 31 min mark when I tried to watch the video on my iPhone. But it seems to be working fine now when I watch it on my laptop instead (Firefox). Maybe it's OS or browser related?
@Vince Venturella ya, for me, it starts at 30 minutes and 2 seconds. Then, it goes for about 3 hours where it will stop at random spots. After 3 hours and 26 minutes the problem disappears completely. Very odd.
Also It doesn't matter what resolution it's on. Whether it's 1080 or 144, stops at the same places.
Thanks for the shout out!
Good gravy, I remember that show @1:46! I don’t remember the name but the football players that become knights of the round table and the quarterback’s name was Arthur! I feel like that was a fever dream I had!
Chaos Legionnaire models looks so cool. I need to get some solely to paint some
I plan on running the tiny chaos warrior dude that came with the warhammer+ sorcerer lord as my exalted hero of chaos
If the Tzeentch sorcerer targets himself, the game divides by 0 and crashes. Netting you a major loss:)
Deamon princes have access to all command traits, because they have the hero keyword, not just the deamon prince list.
Yep, I mentioned that. :)
@@VinceVenturella oh sorry, I miss it :). Great review 👍
If they come out with an FAQ for Daemon Prince that is Sword or Axe and Talons, what would your take be? Because it's odd to me that they changed it so much from what it was and from what it is in 40k (even though one game has no bearing on the other).
It would certainly be an improvement.
Fab analysis! Can't wait to jump in :)
If a hero becomes a Demon Prince, keeps traits and artifacts, does it also keep previous Eye of the Gods roll results that last for the remainder of the game?
I believe the answer is no RAW, but it's worth an FAQ.
I believe it was confirmed that "eye of the gods results" are kept by the daemon prince in an errata.
Fantastic vid and LOVED seeing Jordan on it.
One little correction though - preeeetty sure you don't need a hero to issue the Mark command abilities, they only say 'must be received by a StD [Mark] unit'. So no reason a unit champion can't issue it to their own unit.
Oh crap, I just read it PROPERLY and yeah...it says at the top 'slaves to D heroes can issue'... shit! My bad.
Super excited for this book, always wanted to run the cool guys (Warriors/Knights/Chosen/Varanguard) but the rules didnt really excite me. This one does, so first Chaos faction for me!
Will do some cool lava bases and OSL for first time aswell which will be fun
Great review with the best guest! :)
Good luck!
Well, now I’m just going to have to paint a Knights of Justice themed S2D unit aren’t I?
Knights! Knights! Knights!
👍 You we're always right Vince, pressing buttons is fun. Hopefully the Centaurian Marshal will be good one day. I'm still gonna run my Centaurian Marshal's raptoryx flock though, even if I am begging to have my teeth kicked in 😁.
I too enjoyed pressing the button 😂 I hope the Marshall does you well!
Thanks!
I hope to hear someone took the ability to roll on eye of the god after set and they turn into a spawn before the game even starts. Will be amazing!
If you ran a pack of darkoath chieftains/warqueens you could keep them together enough for the cabalists ability and since they can fight in sequence like the savage big boss you might want to. Although you might want a different subfaction for that.
About Splintered Fangs, maybe put the MWs on 6s to wound instead of to hit and change the MW to "in addition"
With 30 attacks they go from 5 MWs to 2.5 "in addition". It also reduces the effectiveness of added attacks (mark of Khorne / Bloodsecrator / etc...)
Thoroughly enjoyed your blending class at Adepticon - would you be interested in doing some sort of meet up at WarhammerFest for fans of the channel?
It would be a fun time for sure.
Big hype for this show, and this book! Sort of surprised you called it a Johnny book, it feels much more Spike to me. Obvious power in the scrolls and most things Just Work (TM). Also surprised you didn't give Everchosen an A, since I think it's extremely strong even post-nerf. You make strong points about the Daemon Prince, though, which is a shame because I love the model.
As always... it was a blast to watch this show.
Glad The Iron Wall is back - that's what I have in my collection, so for me all previous versions of this book have been annoying and lacklustre (Marauders? Bleh!). So this is great. The time of chaos is upon us!
Are Splintered Fangs more damage per point than Thralls, if you're using them in an army intended on maximizing their output? Because it seems like they might be damn close.
They are, which is surprising (as they are cheaper and easier to regenerate) and the MWs really push them over the edge with higher armor saves.
Unrelated to the topic of the video (or, perhaps, semi-related*), is there any chance you'll do a Fixing Hedonites episode at some point? They have one of the best ranges in AoS and I know they're one of your favourite factions, so I'd love an episode of you and one of your two one-and-only co-hosts (or both) discussing how you'd design a new Hedonites Battletome.
*Trying to come up with paint schemes for an undivided S2D army, I keep coming up with schemes which I dismiss as "looking too much like colours", which in turn reminded me of the Hedonites Christmas box I have in storage for when they become not-awful.
Was that a king aurther and the knights of Justice call out? Quality show!
You know it!
Daemon Prince not being worth the points is a bit rough... especially as I have 4 of them 😭
The daemonprince may be bad, but I'm still going to run one, cause why not. Not having the talons alongside his other weapons is such a drag.
They should have made him a duelist that can fight hero monsters effectively. As it stands, I'm not taking wings so he gives the immune to battleshock, and I'm running warriors and cultists.
I wish it had more protection from shooting, but what're you going to do?
Bringing back Splintered Fang in Ravagers is so obvious.
The cool play is brining back 6 Darkoath Chieftans as Ravagers is just keyword bold DARKOATH, and you round up the models you return.
I'm not sure that the shenanigans with revived Splintered Fang and snakes actually work. The snakes can only be revived with a Serpent Caller, but only 1 in 10 can be a Serpent Caller, and a half-sized unit doesn't meet that minimum size requirement (just as has been established with banners and musicians). When you revive Splintered Fang, the new unit can only have the default models unless the unit was originally reinforced. It doesn't even get a unit champ, because these don't work the same as they do in normal units.
On top of that, only slain snakes can be returned. A revived unit doesn't have slain models.
Axe the mortals from the splintered fang
It’s a Primaris bike lock. Nailed it in one.
I love the positive take on Legion Vince: it gives me the perfect excuse to go hard into an Undivided Be'Lakor + Eternus army for my new S2D (also thanks for introducing me to the abbreviation S2D, I'd been using StD until now...)
STD is the appropriate abbreviation of you're running mark of Nurgle.
@@bumgilligan stealing Slaanesh's thunder?
Okay fair, Nurgle and Slaanesh (and especially a joint Nurgle/Slaanesh list) can remain StD 😆
Couple of thoughts…
With regards to the Tzeentch spell and as a general epistemological principle to apply everyday life. If a set of initial assumptions lead to an impossible situation then one or more of those assumptions are wrong (or in this case look for an interpretation of the rule that doesn't lead to an impossible situation).
How would the Daemon prince look if you could take two of the weapon profiles?
With the Splintered Fang I think the most flavourful way to balance this unit would to make unmodified to hit rolls of 1 cause a mortal wound on the splintered fang unit. You can't play with snakes and not expect to get bitten.
What would it take in your opinion would they have to do to make the cypher lords cultist unit worth taking?
1) A fair point.
2) It would be slightly better, we mentioned it, but at least it could be better against unarmored targets.
3) That'a fun fix for sure.
4) They would need a totally different ability that gave them more of a role.
@@VinceVenturella It seems to me you should be able to do something with the cheapness and the ability to travel over other units while moving. Either by baiting your opponent into wasting movement to engage them or by partnering them with another unit, having them charge over the unit allowing them and the partner to engage the target unit from opposite sides?
Gitz are the next road map release for underworld
Thanks for the walkthrough. I’m new to the game and the faction and this helped me in choosing the weapon configurations for the units I’m assembling right now.
On a separate note, Vince, you mentioned that you’ll be coming to the UK for some classes. Would you mind giving me some details about that? I’d love to participate
Don't have a all the details yet, but I will share out soon.
I feel like leaning TOO much into splintered fang is gonna be a mistake most of the time because they themselves are easy enough to lift even in ravagers with shooting or magic. Bringing them back on an opponent’s turn means they’re stuck out and killed again before they can move and charge.
They’re still great, but the meta is going to adapt and piece these guys out so better to put them in the solid scalpel position they deserve and run between 2-4 squads depending on your build.
Splinter fang v hearthguard with mortal axes. Does more than double the damage for 1/2 the price.
Evaporate when you look at them though. While hearthguard are fairly hard to remove with their 2 wounds a piece, 4+ ward, 4+ spell ignore and 4+ rally (including buffs).
They are slower too though.
But yeah atm the serpent guys are over tuned.
@@cyriltournier5784 all of that ability comes from a hero with in 9 of the unit, as well as an artifact. Your pitching strong combinations from a book with elite non battle line units against battle line chaff from another book without any buffs
@@balemoran3168 I'm well aware. But I think you were comparing a bare unit against a fully buffed unit. With that said in the right subfaction the snakes can come back to life so...
@@cyriltournier5784 it's just the unit + mark. Fully buffed they blow hearth guard out the water. +3 inch to charge and I'm sure they can get to 70+ attacks. 11-12 mortals and then what 30 armour saves.
Algorithm for the Algorithm God! Also, great show as always. Was lovely to finally see Jordan on here 😁👍🏻
Hello! I was wondering if anyone has the answer to the following questions as I can't find it anywhere online the few answers I found/got were contracting each other.
1- If I play under Knights of the Empty Throne and choose to make 1 Varanguard model my general, does it lose the Battleline status and can I reinforce it (block of 6)?
2- If I can keep the Battleline role while also having it as a Leader, I know that I cannot take a Command Trait but I'm assuming that I can still give the Artefact to an other hero?
3- For the Battle Tactic where the General must kill an enemy hero, does it have to be this specific Varanguard model to land the kill (having to roll individually for him) or if the unit lands the kill, it will count for the Battle Tactic?
4- What does it count as for Battalion purposes? Is it a Battleline unit? Is it a Sub-Commander (Leader with 9 wounds or less as the model has 5 wounds) or Leader (as the unit has more than 10 wounds)? Trying to figure out what Battalion options are available to me with this (especially for 1 drop).
1) No, it's just the one model that become general.
2) Correct
3) The unit
4) Battleline unit it doesn't gain the leader role.
@@VinceVenturella Thank you very much for the answers! Someone apparently knowledgeable also ended up answering those in the AOS Discord last night and unfortunately some of his answers were contradicting with this here (he said that the unit counts as Sub-Commander for battlelines and that the model itself has to land the kill (so he would have to roll separately from the unit) for the battle tactic. I'll go with what you wrote here for now with my games but I think they'd have to FAQ some of it as each time I've asked, I got different answers (for question 3 and 4) so I think that a lot of people are confused about how this works.
Great show. Bummed I keep missing these live. Vince, you have a link for the apron you use? Not sure what’s good to get.
My wife had this one custom made, so I have nothing for you.
As always Vince, great 👍 job. I look forward to this every week and you guys keep the hobby MOJO going. You guys should time things with Doug from 2+ so we get that sweet sweet lore and the game play.
Seems weird the fancy new Daemon Prince is weaker then the dude riding a big iguana
I think i prefer the Chaos Chariot to the Gorebeast. Its cheaper, its BL, it does its MWs on the way in so its more reliable, and its *not* the unmodified charge roll, so it takes charge bonuses well (hello Bloodstoker + Daemonic Speed).
I think the Gaunt Summoner could work in Cabalists. Yes it cant use the Heroic action, but you dont expect every hero to be within 3" anyway, and it does get the extra spell, so it's immediately a 3 caster. It's not amazing, but its a decent way to have 3 casts from 1 hero slot. Give him MoM and Arcane Tome and he's a 4 caster with +1 and a re-roll.
Great points.
Great show! What do you think about some shooting support from Blissbarbs? would there be a good Std subfaction for them to fit in?
I just don't rate them.
I very strongly feel like the mortal wounds on the splinters fang are a mistake. GW has made "poison" profiles wound on 2+ in a lot of places. Without mortal wounds but still wounding on 2+ they would actually become interesting and not broken.
Very weird
Seems disapointing that the cultists are locked to undivided, yet don't have a way to get eye if the gods
Oh no, they can get Eye of the Gods as long as they remain Undivided, that is what the mark gives them. :)
Thanks for the analysys, makes AoS so much more digestible for a newbie. One question I have is about the varanguard. My eyes kinda slide over the models when I look at them, and I remeber in some vid you mention a way to "fix" them. Would you have any advice on how to make varangaurd less busy/easier to lok at?
You mean change the model? I swapped out the heads, but there isn't a great deal you can do.
@@VinceVenturella That was it, the heads, thanks! Hopefully makes them a bit more digestible
The nurgle banner is not the greatest banner in the world, it is just a tribute.
Perhaps someone can help me out:
Splintered fang. If they're in squads of 10 & you bring them back to a squad of 5.
I understood RAW - "One model in 10 may be a Snake caller..." - so if you regen them you aren't able to get the leader model back (And then he can't call other snakes back to the unit).
I don’t think you’re restricted. What that qualifier means is that you can’t have “multiple snake callers” in a squad of 10, but you can absolutely bring him back in the squad of 5.
I believe since you're restoring the unit, you can choose any of the models, as opposed to the list building restrictions.
I see that the majority of the slaves line is totally out of stock right now. Is that mostly popularity of the moment or is this supposed to be because we'll be getting new models in place of these? I'm starting a new slaves army and most of it is out of stock lol.
THe new models are coming yes, so all of the iron wall will get new models for the most part.
@@VinceVenturella awesome! Thanks for the reply. Real excited for the army. My first chaos army, actually so I'm pretty stoked
@@Dorkenmore I'm right there with you, friend, I decided to jump in with the new box and make S2D my 3rd army! "Thunderhorse" will be playing on a constant loop. 🤘
@@thebryceroy6155 hell yeah!
Sorry I'm lost...why do you not get the Tallons and the weapons????
Top left. :)
I assume the hosts are testing games on TTS?
I know Tyler plays on TTS sometimes, I play weekly in my basement basically. :)
@@VinceVenturella thanks for sharing. Game on, sir.
Some food for thought.
I think most people toss the idea around that melee armies can never be top tier, but the top 5 armies the last year or two have pretty consistently had strong melee armies there, so I think it's maybe a bit inaccurate to say that's the case.
Also, even just compared amongst other melee armies, I think some of the scrolls are just... Top notch, to put it lightly. Hard to make accurate predictions with mathhammer alone and no stats to back up, but I agree with Jordan I think this will likely be on the stronger side, since there are plenty of other armies that are melee only and also do well, and I think this out melees most of them on paper. They also have access to lots of cheap screens which is also a great luxury for very elite armies like this.
Also - this I think will objectively dumpster other fair armies. Stuff like slayers, OBR, and maybe even giants IMO I don't think have the tools to kill these guys. Lastly, it has much better built in mortal protection than most melee armies which means it should fair much better against ranged matchups than many other melee armies.
OBR are a complete hard counter to Slaves. My very competitive club has had 3 games vs OBR (2 diff OBR opponents) and we've all been SMASHED by OBR.
@@DannyWadeson that is very unlikely the case for the new book, but will have to see the stats come out to determine
Hi Vince great video, what do you mean by "faction locked" for Archaon and Be'lakor does that mean you can only use Be'lakor in legion of the first prince and not ravagers for example?
No, it just means they always carry that with them, so if you use them in the other subfactions, they can't gain the abilities.
@@VinceVenturella thanks alot for clearing that up for me i really appreciate it.
Does the Demon Prince not get Eye of the Gods if he's undivided? I was excited to take one as a general in Legion with all the extra heroic actions, thinking he could beseech himself for free every now and then...
Nope... undivided gives mortal and orgroid units the EotG rule. Heroes either have it or they don't and Demon Prince doesn't
He does not.
It seems like they didn't think about the opportunity cost of this
If they changed splintered fang to 4+ to wound would the fix them?
Not really, it's just a classic scaling problem with the 6's to hit MW. You just get too much value out of the whole thing. THe way to fix them, is to make them an exact clone of Dark Oath, which are very good, but not bent.
A pity that the audio of the guest on top is really terrible and almost can't understand what he says... Great show as usual anyway
Ignoring that previous to this book, StD rules were spread out over not less than 1 million different books, what would you say about the complexity of the new faction?
Obviously less complex than before, but is it too complex or just right? Especially given that you had to put out that table at the beginning to summarize just how Mark of Chaos worked.
Honestly, I don't think it's too complicated, the table was really just to get all the buffs straight for first read.
The khorne DP kills 5 models, does He heal 5 LP? Or just 1?
1 wound per model slain (so 5 in your example), but it's challenging to get him to do that damage.
@@VinceVenturella Yeah indeed. Ty for the answer :)
Can Archaon get Eye of the Gods from undivided?
Nope, he doesn’t get that mark.
Comment from the future and they sit at a 47% wr!
Can anyone explain to me the situation when i build ogroid theridons with one handed axe for musician/standard bearer, does it count as a Great Axe Weapon or Falchion? Thanks for any help :)
If you choose the great axes, they all have that.
Hey Vince, you say you're teaching in the UK next year, got any details yet?
Not yet, but coming soon. :)
@@VinceVenturella Awesome, I'll keep an eye out!
I'm confused about the Tzeentch spell. I mean, of course I am.
You say you can pick a target somewhere on the battlefield. But don't the core rules say, that "range ... wholly within X" means the unit you pick must be wholly within X" to begin with?
The spell does not make sense that way at all, but I don't get why it doesn't follow the usual casting core rule.
It doesn't use the range in the target choosing, it uses it only in the destination.
@@VinceVenturella Aha, see? that's why we need great people like you guys, who can actually comprehend what they're reading.
To my defense, english isn't my first language? x)
Chaooooooos!
Re: Mindstealer....
How much would you pay for a unit that made any bravery 8 unit have a 41.67% chance to strike last when it charges in?
Apart from all of death, all demons and most decent or big heroes. A lot of other great units are bravery 8 or less.
72% chance to stop 6 pigs hitting you? 58% chance to stop most stormcast hitting you (annihlators, fulminators etc)
Kurnoth hunters and bugs are also bravery 7. The list of bravery 7 and 8 units is quite big.
Would you take it if the ability was a just on a 5+? coz that's that 33% chance , works on everyone but worse than the current rule against bravery 8 and below.
It sucks the kitty is no longer a monster. But it does have the standard SCE hero attack profile, 10 wounds for 95pts and the dominate mind ability.
I think it might still be worth a look. Competes with 80pt cultists of course.
High death representation in the meta probably drops it out of "competitive" contention. But if there's not too much death around or your play vs a lot of order and destruction, it's not too shabby.
Ideally I'd like it to be a bit cheaper - like 80pts to compete with the cultist units properly, or up to 100 or 110 but stay a monster. Or like 120 if it kept the -1 or -2 bravery aura.
Yeah, my answer is I probably wouldn't pay 95 points. If it was just a 4+, it would be unreliable, but at least I know it would always be a 4+. ;)
Love this breakdown. Yeah my thoughts were from the POV of a tournament list, where the prospect of playing multiple games vs Bravery 9-10 makes it rather unappealing to take; but you’re right: in general, most Bravery is still 7-8 or less, which represents decent odds of getting some value at some point out of the Mindstealer’s ASL.
This does not make sense to me...why would you not get the weapons choice and the tallones and claws...sorry if I don't get it...I just re-read the warscroll and do not see this???
It's in the text in the top left, you have to choose 1 of the 3.
I don't know what it is, but i can't get this video to play all the way through. It's just this video, it's like it won't keep loading as i watch
Strange, you may need to skip ahead slightly, someone said that made it play okay.
👍👍
Have they ever live patched a new Warscroll for a dog shit unit before? Outside of it got a brand new model (Belakor at that time) or new Battletome? I think the Daemon Prince is just going to be terrible for about 2-4 years. 😢
Nope and yep. He will have his uses, he will see a little play, but it just isn't where we want of course.
I can't believe every destruction faction is going to be updated before 3/4 of the death factions 🤣
Is anyone else having trouble watching this video? It keeps pausing after like 3 seconds
Someone else mentioned it, but if they skipped ahead some, it would work fine from there.
Yeah that's what I experienced as well, thanks Vince.
I paused this at the Damned Legions section because despite thinking that a 5+ rally for this army which I love is awesome I honestly hope that Rally could just be removed from the game all together. It is SO counter thematic. "Oh my mortal men just got stomped" *toot*toot* (magic horn) "Yay! I have a bunch of men back!" BS. This shouldn't exist outside of a death army and even there it's annoying and probably a waste of a dice roll and time on the clock.
I'd think if GW wants to keep this stupid Rally Rule that they should at least make it thematic something along the lines of: hit rolls of 1 for rallied models automatically wound their own unit. Or, rallied models have -1 to hit & wound rolls because they've got reanimated brains that don't think so good anymore.
Most rules in the book have a +/- choice about them: Charging, moving, piling in can all be a positive for your army or a bite you in the ass negative for your army. But, Rally is all positive. It needs to be rebalanced or removed. Sorry that was long winded, thanks for reading this far.