Why does the UK keep ordering Hitachi class 800s ?
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
- the hitachi class 800s, they are eveywhere. i do like them its just variety is what I like more?
tell me what you think of them ;)
Instagram - NetworkNathan
#hitachi #class800 #sotukt #stateoftheuktransport
Here in the EU you will find the class 745 (FLIRT) everywhere. But all versions are a little bit different and unique. They run as Intercity or communiter service. What I also like is that the British FLIRTs look a lot like the European FLIRTs. Other companies like Alstom, Siemens or CAF make complete new designs for UK trains, what makes Stadler so forgein and refreshing, just as Hitachi used to be.
Greece doesn't have flirts
The companies make UK specific designs due to the clearance profile I think.
We have the Class 745 as well on the Great Eastern Main Line Intercity
The uk flirts are top notch
@@derhamburger9289yes, but that doesn’t necessitate altering the design so they look entirely different to the rest of their family. The Class 373 for example still looks like other TGVs despite being designed for the UK loading gauge, and even the 395/80Xs look like other AT300s like those in service in Japan.
it just goes to show how good they are really. The uk's railways need a train that can adapt to different terrain and power, and the 800s do just that. I love them tbh. I travel direct from swansea to london on these things to fly home.
I agree the IETs are good apart from small issues such as the bogies and rough riding on some sets. Interior wise they are awful on GWR I would be interested to try Lumo and see if that's any better.
The seats on the GWR sets are terrible. Bring your own cushion
@@devon896but the interior should be a different beast from the train class. I am pretty sure that they can put in whatever seats you want, if you are willing to pay the difference in costs. Especially since they are assembled in the uk.
I find it ironic how Japan, where Hitachi builds and exports some 800s, has a very high percentage of its trains built domestically, but then again most trains are less identified by manufacturer over there as big companies like Kawasaki, Nippon Sharyo and Hitachi all 'work together' to produce a batch (or sometimes multiple batches) of trains of the same class, probably the best example I know of is the Keikyu N1000 series where the only 'foreign' part was the Siemens built GTO inverters which came with the first couple of batches.
The keiyku 600 series make my most favourite sounds .
Good to have you back Nathan. I generally agree about diversity of train type, but can live with a certain level of ubiquity providing the ‘product’ delivers. The 125s were found on several routes but apart from great aesthetics also provided a good ride and comfortable environment. The 800s look good and ride pretty well (at least on the GWR, my only experience to date) but the interior in my view falls short, certainly compared to their predecessors. Still prefer the 745s though, a really lovely train.
The 800s on the ECML are awful, they rattle for over a minute straight in some parts. Also like almost all of the 800s, the seats are terribly shaped.
I'm old enough to remember when the intercity network was pretty much all Mark 3 carriages, so the diversity of train types is a new thing for me.
This channel is the best that I have discovered in a long time. It deserves to be much better known.
Thanks for the video as they are some of my favourite locomotives
I took a train to Cornwall a while back and we happened to be on one of the last runs of a Class 125, the first class seats were a dream- plush deep leather, it was so comfy I fell asleep, but I was telling my sister that we'd be taking a new train back and that it would be even better. Imagine my disappointment at the Class 800's iron hard seats and that there was absolutely no way to get any fresh air for the entire journey.
Being from Doncaster, a railway City that has lost its train making capabilities along with most of its other heavy and not so heavy industries, we were giants and now we are surrounded by industrial estates rather than factories that actually produce goods that people want or items to sell to other countries, there is no heavy industry to speak of in the UK and in particular in the North, its all retail and call centres that are selling for other people around the world, its much clearer now, but having parks and shopping centres is no good if you don't have the number of jobs for the people to earn a crust plus a bit extra to spend on what is being made.
I agree why aren’t we investing in City’s like Derby or Doncaster to promote both design and manufacturing in education and industry. Like Nathan I believe we should expect procurement contracts to specify a high level of domestic local RandD and manufacturing content
I from doncaster too great railway history now we only do repairs and refurbishment
I agree when you say the variety of units will go down
for example the ECML. FCC and even GN for a while had the 313,317,365,387
but now only the 387 and 717 which is quite sad
Yeah word.
Siemens has a factory for making LU stock in Goole, CAF (Spain) has one in Newport, Alstom (which used to be Bombardier, e.g. the 710's on the Overground) builds trains in Derby, Stadler (Class 745 & 755 Greater Anglia) doesn't build in UK and Hitachi has an assembly facility at Newton Aycliffe, Co. Durham. British Rail's main EMU-factory (all components British, e.g. Class 315) at York (Holgate Road) closed permanently in the 1990's due to railway privatisation.
Yeah idky why the uk doesent make more building sites for their rolling stock.
Most of the 80s a.d 90s stock was built here. BREL , metro cammel I think was Birmingham .
the Holgate work was closed not because of privaitsation, but due to asbestos issue
Great to see you again! Did miss your unique passion!. RE the Class 373 (eurostar) on GNER, the reason was indeed guaging of some bridges on the appraoch to newcastle. Also, I beleive due to power issues they were also lmited to 110mph on some/all sections. I have a funny story where I had to get some friends/collegues from our northern office back up north to leeds after a very drink filled Friday, on one of these trains. Apparently they woke up midway and thought they were on a Eurostar heading to Paris, and freaked out!
Believe Eurostar GNERs only went as far as Leeds cos the large carriages couldn't handle the tight bends at York. I might be wrong but I seem to remember that being it
Eurostars didn’t venture beyond Leeds or York because the power supply was yet to be upgraded and, unless I’m mistaken, there were also issues with the signalling and electrical interference.
saw a cross country intercity 125 the other day at wakefield westgate, was really nice to see one still running in person
Won’t be for long they are going end of 2023 !!! As are XC
Good to have you back! 💙
Class 810 (Aurora) are being built in Derby as we speak rather than Italy.
I think that Hitachi is very fond with the UK railways especially the East Coast Main Line, West Coast Main Line, Great Western & South Wales main lines and other major routes.
I do think that Hitachi are to continue manufacturing more new rolling stocks and maybe could manufacture new London Underground deep level tube stocks for the Bakerloo Line, Waterloo & City Line and Central Line.
I think Siemens has the order lined up for the 2024 stock
Because of the assembly plant Hitachi have in Newton Aycliffe + probably cheap because of economies of scale.
This channel is awesome...keep up the good work
I use mainly GWR services and the class 800s are a big disappointment in two areas that could be so easily rectified and probably have little to do with Hitachi. First the outside livery and inside decor. Both drab in the extreme. Second, the really uncomfortable seats. I'm a regular traveller across the network of Czech Railways. They've managed to introduce very attractive trains and seats in all classes which are extremely comfortable. Great legroom too!
The GWR is good it's classic but not too in your face. Interior wise they need a massive upgrade though.
Having grown up in an area (at the time) served mainly by Virgin Trains (and now by Cross Country) it's gonna be weird in the inevitable future when the lines are missing any Voyager Class units
The lack of continuity and sustainability is killing rolling stock manufacturing in the UK. Even for the Hitachi units, a few years back when the ordered bloomed and the local Hitachi factories were at capacity, some GWR class 800s building was offloaded to Hitachi Italy (previously AnsaldoBreda). Then a few years later when most of the TOCs have ordered the units they need, the local factories are now at risk of closing down when the production finishes. The UK need a complete train manufacturer which can continuously build trains for themselves and for the year there aren't a lot of local orders, they can market and sell their trains overseas.
I share this same view with the new tube for London as its planned to use it on Piccadilly lines then the bakerloo and central line
4:45 Past Exeter rumor has it they might still be operating steam somewhere. Given the time it takes to go from Exeter to Penzance vs. Exeter to London this would not surprise. (sarcasm)
I remember the GNER Eurostar trains. They were a pain when they were busy as standard class was at the front and back. If one end was full you had to walk all the way through the train to try and find a seat.
I do agree that trains in the UK should be varied, but back when GWR ordered those class 800s, I thought that they were *really* cool. They also reduce journey times and are quieter. Another thing, if you've ever stood by the door of a class 800 when it's just departed, the door gets pushed out into a rubber seal. Also, train doors used to close very loudly, but the closing door of a class 800 is just a tiny click which is far more impressive in my opinion
Loved this video, a lot of videos talking about the Hitachi class 80x's/810's, most of them take them on face value and sometimes fail to appreciate the fact that, as you point out, they are still good units, and ultimately seeing an intercity replacement scheme on this level is unheard of, only really the HSTs caused such a widespread national impact on services in terms of stock replacement/upgrade as the AT300's (Model name for the 80x's/810's), I liked how you did ultimately talk about it as an enthusiast too, it's dissapointing yet understandable, although there are some potentially more inventive and innovative solutions. And don't listen to anyone who says you can't wear a hat indoors
Great video! I agree that every operator should order a slightly different looking IET to each other but I do understand why they don't. I assume it must be EXTREMELY cheap to order the exact same model of 800s compared to ordering them with a unique aesthetic or different capabilities, or ordering from a different manufacturer like CAF. Also, Ive noticed that this is very similar to what all the UK bus operators are doing in regards of replacing all their old buses with E200/400MMC's or City's. AD and Hitachi are winning big time!
Hitachi class 800 series is a very well built train. Unlike CAF who make their trains very cheap.
Did we not see much of the fleet being pulled out of service a couple years back over major cracks?
I will continue to miss the HST - it's always a joy to get one. I also find new trains difficult to use with a bike which is a shame given bike and train should be an encouraged option to take as they're both low carbon and efficient.
I really really hate it when trip report channels Criticise the 800 series of trains to be uncomfortable, too bright and Have loose panels. I’ve been on plenty of 800 trains and they are perfectly fine, Lighting is good, seats are comfy and they are good quality! These trains are the right way forward and even me being a train enthusiast, I do look forward to seeing more of these about. Also another train Operator that has modern intercity trains that aren’t 800 trains are Transpennine express (nova 2).
6:11 the 373’s weren’t allowed north of York was due to loading gauge. They also weren’t allowed to certain other destinations on the network due to issues with power draw. Simply their presence on the ECML caused major power issues, and they couldn’t service places like Bradford Forster Square at all because of this.
You have such a likeable personality
6:50 Another point though is that if LNER only uses the Class 800's, if the fleet starts having problems theres no replacement, hence the need for a slight variety
As long as they can stand the test of time , then all is good
@networknathan 10 of the 805s are on testing now and some are on drviver training
I would of loved to see the Avanti class 800’s with plug doors. like the class 390 and class 220 and class 221 it would make the Avanti ones look cool with plug doors
the class 385 for scotrail are my fav trains
I do like the Class 800s but that probably because the nearest stations near me are all 7+ miles away and only served by Northern Rail who seem to only use the 150s and 195s
It costs millions to redesign a train. EMR is a totally different design to 800. EMR is Italian design. The 800 is a combination of Japan and uk design. And 800 are only metal shells when they enter the UK. The most of the work and test is uk (Durham) . 800 are Economic, Reliable, Cost effective, Easy to refit, build in the UK. With a trusted design and why change something that is so good.
I rememeber the gner 373s, they couldnt go to newcastle becasue of the guages on some of the bridges, not sure which bridges, but obviusly north or York.
You make a great point... the class 80x series of trains are a bit same, I think they are OK trains (nothing special). I hope another builder comes up with a viable alternative soon to give some variety (hope CrossCountry doesn't go with class 80x for example.
My only ever ride on a Eurostar set was with GNER on the ECML between Kings Cross and Leeds - those were the days!
It would we super great to see duplex class 800
A century ago, back in the heyday of British railways, 4 or 5 companies split the provision of the island's rail services and the manufacture of railway equipment amongst themselves. British rolling stock and engine manufacturers never expanded their outlook to see if maybe they could take over the whole of Great Britain's market, let alone that of the whole world. Many commenters see the necessity for a wide variety of rolling stock for them to identify and appreciate, as though the sole purpose of having railways is to provide trainspotting enthusiasts something to enjoy. The economic facts are that when manufacturing things as expensive and complex as railway engines, the larger a company's investment in building large factories that use the most efficient high-tech tooling, the lower the cost per unit of the finished product. Hitachi and the rest of Japan, Incorporated weren't looking to build train equipment for one section of Japan, their goal was to dominate as much of the world market as possible and they are succeeding. Hitachi is but one of the worldwide companies that use the strengths of economies of scale to consistently overpower the smaller, inefficient industries that try to hang on as government-subsidized welfare and employment programs and Japan has several such companies. Japan and Great Britain are both smallish islands, but one of them understands production economics and just thinks on a larger scale than the other.
Great video. ☺️
London Borough expansion ideas:
- The Bexley borough expands to Bluewater.
- The Bromley borough expands to Chartwell.
- The Croydon borough expands to Redhill.
Well, Siemens will have a factory building trains in Galle in Yorkshire in the future.
Yep and to manufacture new Piccadilly Line tube stocks.
@@AndrewG1989 and central, bakerloo, and w&c lines
Starting with the 807s I think some of the body shells will be built in the UK
As someone who does bike-rail for cycle touring the 800s are trash, they are very restrictive with their bike cupboards which seem to be built to the dimensions of a skinny racing bike. The 745s are amazing, plenty of space, no lifting your bike, no stupid cupboard. They have those awesome carriage end bogies too, they are futuristic!
Well there are still intercity 225 sets to leeds and york but there are only few still around
They’re gonna get withdrawn soon
That's a great looking train
With regards to also being a train enthusiast, the other thing I don't really like is that alot of newer units have no sort of unique and interesting or audible traction motor sounds. Class 700s whilst being cool are quiet to the point of boredom, let alone their lack of colour and hard seating. Aventras are even worse , they barely make any audible noise and the fronts aren't that good to look at personally..
The only more audible traims that are more modern in the uk, are the stadlers traction motors , the stadler 745 traction makes a REALLY GOOD SOUND as Nathan pointed out. Class 331s are also units that make very unique sounds that are beautiful to listen to.
Outside of the uk, in Europe for example alot of the newer eurpoean rolling stock make all kinda of traction motor sounds. The " Talent 2 BR442 "makes amazing sounds for example.
Recently I was very surprised to learn that national rail trains have always been narrower than Underground Sub-Surface trains, the S Stock is 8" wider than national rail trains
The current Rolling Stock on some railways, such as the East Coast Main line that runs from London King's Cross to Edinburgh Waverly is obviously getting old and needs replacing. It's no good keeping the old ones as it's bad for the environment.
Lot of faults in this video. Hitachi have gradually increased manufacturing capabilities in the UK. Current EMR units in build are a full build from weld and paint up-to testing and commissioning in the factory in the UK. Some GWR units were built in Italy and Hull and TPE were built in Italy. Current west coast build comes to the UK from Italy as a bare shell with all build work done in UK. They were due to be welded in the UK bit factory didn’t have capacity for two projects.
The 800-803 units i cant really complain about I didn’t like them when they were new but they have really grown on me i think the main reason is because of their performance their acceleration is rapid (dont count diesel mode) and they are very versatile being diesel/electric/battery but the variety isn’t going down because the vast majority of them have replaced HSTs which were absolutely flooded in the network i do really like the iet family and i think they have many brilliant years to go
Side note the GNER 373s only went as far as york/leeds i think due to the electric capability north of york wasn’t as good if you get what i mean i think thats the reason if not please correct me
I prefer the Stadler Class 745, which is why I love greater Anglia trains.
I certainly like the look of the Class 800s, but I do think that variety is the spice of life. It will be cool to see them come through my hometown, but it will be sad to see the 390s dwindle. However I will be pleased to see the Class 22xs leave service, especially on electrified mainlines
I like the Class 385 Hitachi because its the first hitachi train to get End Gangways.
Totally agree Nathan. I live in Cornwall so on the GWR. I prefer strongly seeing the old HSTs thrash along the line than the new 800s pacing smoothly along. Nowhere near as interesting
Oh and Anglia... definitely NOT Intercity! These are regional units no matter what they call it in my opinion. The Anglia route has become a London metropolitan commuter route. The urban expansion between London and Norwich also supports this. It has become a suburban 100 mile corridor.
Nice vid bro it is a shame such a nice train is over saturated
Summer 2022 I went to Reading on the GWR Hitachi 800 from Paddington and I was a bit upset, not very comfy and the train just didn't feel like the service and greatness that GWR had been saying. On the way back I got a slower commuter service which was a class 387 turbo and that was much nicer, I would have happily got that 387 turbo on a longer journey too.
I do miss the comfort of trains like the intercity 125s,and that variety on the rails. In the ideal world to keep business in the rail industry going it would have been nice to have seen the rail networks keep some more of them and than fit newer Engineering within, say take out the old diesels and fit in more electrical units, but that's just coming from a train fan.
Going upto Wales I did get the train out of Euston to Birmingham before changing and that was on Avanti service (not a Hitachi) and the journey was nice and quiet, had plenty of seat space, and there was also a nice clean feel to the train which I have actually not felt so much of on a intercity service for a little while.
How do you think ironing board seats are more comfortable than class 800 seats?
Glad Avanti are replacing their Voyagers. Having diesel fumes in the tunnels at Birmingham New Street is nasty. 800s are good but I still prefer 390s.
Pendolino trains are my favourite, I hate the Voyagers, and the class 800's. But I thought the WCML required tilting trains for running at 125mph, will the 800's be tilting when they arrive on that route? Nice hat by the way.
I don't think that'd be too hard to implement. JR Class 885s found in Kyushu are built on the same platform as the UK 800s - the Hitachi A-Train - and despite being built for the narrower 1,067mm gauge (3ft 6in), have a tilting mechanism.
They are fine for 2 to 3 hours. I found the seats uncomfortable for Edinborough to Kings Cross on LNER.
First class they’re not !! You get what you pay for
The UK should instead focus on electrifying the lines and refubishing them for higher speeds. Then, they should maybe look at something like the Siemens Velaro or Talgo 250.
Fully agree with what you've said. I find the UK railway scene kind of boring now. In terms of Stock and liveries (90's, 91's, HST's, 313's, 315's, 317's, 319's, 321's, etc), which is why I'm so surprised and impressed with The Elizabeth Line. It's genuinely exciting riding on the core section and makes the Class 345's more interesting funny enough. I think Greater Anglia have the best replacement stock with the Class 745's. Unique, comfortable and the motor sounds are ace. Even the Class 720'S are decent with GA. Meanwhile with LNER, Thameslink, Eh.. I do like Govia, but they need more excitement in their livery scheme on the GN/Thameslink side.
Apart from Greater Anglia and some of the London Overground, South of the river is more exciting for me atm.
honestly, the aventra units look best in elizabeth line
@@networknathan 100%
Oh mate I'm glad you share the same opinion with regards to motor sounds. It's likely because they are European. Notice that aventras have the worst traction sounds of all they don't exist , that always annoys me when I ride them. A train can be quiet and have traction moise, they just need to be in a specific range of sound and sound smooth and not irritating, as different types of sound can be soothing or annoying. The electrostars (being a product of bombadier like aventras were, made nice sounds, but were still comfy to listen to and ride without being irritated by the sound. In fact the first electrostar were even quieter , but made noise regardless)
Which is why I much preffer stadler and CAF out of all the newer uk rolling stock, desiro city is decent the traction noise is almost to quiet for me though, but they are still audible, so that's better than nothing, their front ends are also very good looking. But CAF!!! AND STADLERS TRAINS IN THE UK, SOUND AMAZING, my friend if you haven't already take a look at class 331 motor sounds on you tube, they sound SICK!!
outside of that, modern rolling stock jn Europe all have audible and lovely sounding traction motor sounds , BR 442 TALENT 2s are over 10 years old , but sound amazing . Even the more recent stock I'm Europe still make really cool sounds. The uk stock are becoming very dull imo. Stadler and CAF are the only real interesting post 2015 stock to me atm. Class 387s and 379s are my favourite post 2011 rolling stock.
Networkers are my favourite 90s stock and arguable my most favourite stock of all. And let's not forget the 80s mk 3 class 321, 317, 318 series etc. Amazing motors and visuals.
Hitachi have a factory making the class 800,801,802 at Newton Aycliffe, County Durham.
Short answer: they are more efficient and can run on unelectrified routes
In the placenta?????
Are these Hitachi's being purchased by the train operators, or do we still have third party rolling stock owners that are leasing them to the TOCs?
I believe it's still Rosco's, but I could be wrong, I don't really understand what this new gbr structure will look like.
@@christopherlloyd-roberts2205 I believe the TOC's get a say in what in purchased for them
Mainly First Group have 800’s
Buying lots of parts in bulk is cheaper, but when those bulk parts are bad quality, you have a problem.
Nice hat!
Similar thing with the bus industry all (majority) of operators purchasing Enviro400 EV’s for their new electric routes , making the scene less diverse likewise to the railways scene
agreed, still alot more variation with buses though
CrossCountry can't replace Voyager's with 800s everywhere, not until all the lines are electrified. Yes the 801 has a diesel engine but it can't go very fast.
The class 801 is an also an EMU
@@Moharagareal yes, it's an EMU, but it has a backup diesel engine. It was used on LNERs that went down the Durham coast line in February.
I like standardising trains. Its a shame LNER are ordering class 397s instead of more 800s :/
I agree with you 100% on this topic. Class 800's are boring as hell as 745's are really interesting looking and I love that they have Jacobs Bogies.
The simple answer is the Class 800’s are the ‘standard’ trains for TOCs to use and probably have a contract with Hitachi
Simple! Someone is getting a back hander.
Actually, it was the 385s
I fear trains are going to go the same way as planes. There used to be so many different types of plane at an airport which was really exciting. Now it’s all A320s, 737s and 777s. It sucks for enthusiasts but so long as it’s cheap and reliable nobody else cares unfortunately.
Bad move when BREL was privatised once we made all our own train some very good some not so good
Great Britain's rail system is on a financial knife-edge for several reasons, from constant government meddling with the dysfunctional structure politicians created back in 1994, through chaotic big projects that ran massively over-budget and years late with some never finished (such as Great Western electrification, to serial failure of several passenger franchises before their term was up. And that's all before Covid knocked the stuffing out of the travel market....
With little new investment cash left, everyone is playing safe. So apart from various new ideas around battery and hydrogen traction for the little trains, there's too much financial risk in going for any more new designs for the big trains.
I agree that Class 80Xs are a good-looking train on the outside, but as the GWR and LNER initial fleets were so clumsily procured by Whitehall civil servants and not railway bosses, we've ended up with Costcutter quality bland plastic interiors, dreadfully hard seats, glaringly bright lighting, a rough ride over pointwork and (on GWR) no buffet counter service. But hey, when on electric power they go like shit off a shovel....
Anyway, all these features make the 80Xs just about adequate as 'outer suburban' trains on journeys up to perhaps 90min/2hr but they fall far short of 'InterCity' quality, with passengers forced to endure Aberdeen/ Inverness/ Penzance etc to London journeys on them. A depressingly missed opportunity to progress and improve upon the trains they have replaced.
Possible good news is that the latest builds may will have more comfortable seats - East Mids Railway announced that theirs will at least. Whether anything will be done to improve ride quality and onboard service on the newest ones remains to be seen.
Imo, I find the design of the trains alright... like you said, thats probably because we see so many around here which makes it less interesting
i think all these train comps are taking the 800s is becuz since i started working for TFL i work around the bombardia 710s(overground) 345s (crossrail/eliz line) and they are not the most reliable trains whereas the 800s are reallllly really good
i also think that with HS2 coming at some point and from what ive seen the company to run HS2 are going with trains build by bombardia/ alstome
one more thing personally i think the class 745 are the best most reliable trains out there
I must say I am not a big fan of the 800s, I find them rather bumpy on the route between Cardiff and Bristol Parkway and rather noisy in the tunnels. I cannot remember the hats being so bumpy, but I could be wrong.
I like the Class 800's but I'm not fond of their rickety interiors!
agreed, notice it alot on the gwr units
The class 800 trains are built in a factory in Newton Aycliffe in the North East
Loco Hauled clear
thought they ordered 800 units
bring back the British made pacers
The 80x… I live around Reading, I’m quite sick of seeing them. They’re… just fast travelling tools to me, I really feel nothing good or bad towards them - boring - compared to other local stocks.
And they've all got hard seats 😐 they all have that in common.
Hitachi build there uk tranis at Newton Aycliffe
Built in the U.K .
Why are we so obsessively focused on the that "jobs" argument, as if it was the most important aspect of everything?
I'm not a fan of the interior on the 80x trains, they're a. downgrade over the HSTs they replaced. A lot of the criticism is due to the fact that they're seen as a downgrade compared to the HSTs. I also think train design should be changed. Instead of trying to cram as many seats in as possible, they need to become more user-friendly by having better accessibility for disabled people and families with pushchairs, as well as better quality interior
What? The 800s aren't 'built' in Japan. They are *designed* in Japan and *built* in Newton Ayecliffe, Durham (3 miles from me). Some components come from Japan but the sheet metals and much of the train fabrication is made with British resources and employees. These trains are more British than they are Japanese... that's why the build quality is poor! I do agree with you about the narrowing of variety on the UK network. But the point about Class 800s being 'Japanese' is moot I'm afraid.