The Death of Projectile DPS
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- Sprixy: / @sprixyy
Hitscan has long dominated pro meta (in ranked and scrims), so why is that? As usual (for a Spilo video), we have to delve into hero design, kit design, and a term called "Value Ceiling" for the real answer!
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Thanks for watching!
0:00 Bias
0:35 the Comparison
7:38 Junkrat is Dead
9:20 Hanzo is Dead
17:14 Cassidy OP
20:10 Hitscan OP
22:14 Why Projectile is Bad - Hry
Thanks to Sprixy for making a very thought-provoking video: czcams.com/video/fnxkZvR6ffU/video.html
11:13 He's playing vs a venture and he has 200hp, what??
@@Waseemmmm 6v6 pugs
hey spilo remember me? the guy you mugged yesterday? yeah im here for payback
mate you're softer than a mushroom's mattress. ill send you back to your mama in a ziploc bag, buddy.
@@StormcrowProductionsis this an nfl blitz reference I feel like you just unlocked a core memory in my brain 🤣
Eagles bears body bag game?
I'm getting a "HEY DOC" vibe rn
I love how the ending is saying that you can't paint with a broad brush when that is literally what the passives are trying to do to the entire cast
true
Maybe Overwatch should take a cue from Destiny 2. Bows in that game have a perk called archer's tempo, where precision hits increase nock/draw speed. This would eliminate the oneshot, but allow Hanzo a consistent, fast two shot if the user can reliably hit heads.
this would actually be so great with the new hanzo but i imagine the tanks would be melted even with % less headshot damage
@@malachiOW ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not necessarily tho
I have more play time in destiny than ow and I’ve never thought of this lol. If they increased his base draw speed and then implemented this, so you kinda go for a headshot then a quick follow up body shot, it sounds pretty good. Just nerf the arrow size and or damage, and probably the cooldown on storm arrow as well. I still think having special arrows like fire arrow, anti arrow, whatever would be cooler, and you have two slots: damage and utility arrows
I'd want a strand grapple mele on widow then. seems fitting
Hey spilo ! First of all it was a pleasure meeting you. I’m still new to Making content, but im Going into This Video optimistic about what You’re gonna think :)
Furthermore I appreciate any kind of counter arguments etc, This Video was more made out of my emotions than factual statements but thank you for the reaction Boss man
The moment you acknowledged widow's problematic design and her issue of being unbalancable thanks to that, and THEN went back to saying it's still not an excuse for the bad argument to compare hanzo and widow's 1-shot, I decided this would be a full listen. I usually don't listen to videos like this but this point tells me there's at least going to be good ideas and analysis if not more in this one specifically.
Edit: yup, the "bad argument destroys the point" part is exactly what I expected, good points all around.
Spilo has great analysis, he’s really insightful with his takes on OW
"What TastefulBac- I'm not reading that name" LMFAOOOOOO
you saying "its a good clip" and its Kevster is so funny
15:35 Blizzard have gone on record saying that his arrows have one of the smallest projectile hitboxes. The problem is not him shooting logs, the problem is everybody having hitboxes the size of Jupiter.
and those hitboxes aren't the same for hitscan? just like cover doesn't work against hitscan?
all the bullets and projectiles sizes are public information
That and most projectiles don't do that much damage, at that readsbility, from that far away. It's not literally a size issue, it's a compounding issue of speed, distance, and damage that creates a weapon with horrible damage feedback especially if you account for peaking. Compare arrow stats to any other projectile and it becomes obvious how weird they are vs others and how much more annoying they are even when bad.
@@jonathangoliath91Something important to note is that projectiles have two hitboxes. One is a large one for players, and the other is a single (“infinitely small”) point for cover. This means that projectile heroes can shoot people who are standing completely behind cover, whereas hitscan cannot. Projectile is harder in theory, but has some powerful advantages that *can* make it easier to hit shots over hitscan.
@@ValoriYTthe key word here is SOME projectiles. Junk grenades have full collision and hit players and the environment the same way, whereas fire strike works as you said.
Edit: also this is nitpicky but the point isnt infinitely small, it's just regular small. Computers can't do infinite.
Hitscan is just way more consistent and scales infinitely with great aim. So a good player can take a hitscan much further, and projectile characters have a bit of randomness with projectiles.
Which is why projectile characters should deal more dmg than hitscan overall.
do they not? @@gabrielnieves4103
@@gabrielnieves4103 thats literally he point and mostly already true. Most projectile characters have higher single shot damage or even. Like fr fr.
Mei icicle -75
Pharah is like 115 or something
Junk -125
Hanzo -115
Torb - 80
Venture -70 on direct hit.
That’s literally even with Cassidy, ashe. Soldier has an automatic rifle that’s incomparable, he has less burst damage than most dps. I don’t see the point in why projectile should do even more damage than they do now?
@@MetroBreezyy hey I didn’t say buff their dmg, I meant like as a whole the philosophy should be on balancing consistency vs raw dmg. The issue with widow is that she has two much of both imo. Hope I cleared myself up.
@@MetroBreezyypharah and hanzo 120
We have this ubiquitous awkward thing in overwatch where we conflate a lot of descriptive terms;
- In overwatch 1 it was "x role is broken" when the brokenness should be attributed to problematic characters, not rein and winston for example.
- Theres even stuff we talk about like "AoE healing" in reference to ow balance problems, but we dont mean lucio's healing when we talk about this. I think what we really mean is the volume total of stats (as in total stat output, not area).
I really think we need to push to be more accurate in this, because even the biggest CCs make balance judgement under these broad terms, when they might not accurately encapsulate the problems.
Theres also the perception, or interpretation of incremental changes, i think quite often we estimate these in arbitrary or reductive ways:
- lets compare brig and lucio AoE range. For ease lets estimate inspire to be twice the radius. Then we scale that for volume. After 4/3 πr³ the propotions cancel leaving us with brigs being 8× as large, but would we actually estimate that as being 8× as effective?
Maybe ill do a writeup on this stuff, idk.
they key in tuning in a hero, is to remove power from the floor and push it into the cieling.
junkrat hadthe old one shot combo of trap + tripmine, which is very low floor combo, that in low elos gruntee kills, specificly the trap.
if we removed power from his trap and added more power to a part of his skill expression, ( for example people hit by trip mine take extra damage mid air), focusing him on trick shots, that would be a nice thing.
yeah i really agree with TastefulBackshots here. and by the way shoutout TastefulBackshots thanks for the 5 gifted.
16:16
An idea I have been playing around with for hanzo (not, I am a metal rank at best and not a game designer, so this could very well be an idiot take) is to move him away from the "Skilled and Deadly Archer" fantasy and move him towards a more "Trick shot/toolbox" fantasy. Let me explain.
Hanzo has always had a bit of both of these ideas, at least with his original design. You had the one shot that fell into the "Skilled and Deadly" side and his abilities in Sonic and Scatter fell into the "Trickshot/toolbox". I think expanding on the latter idea more with a passive that allows him to select more kinds of arrows to use in situations would be a much healthier style of play. A few ideas I have had for arrows are a poison arrow (lower burst damage but has a damage over time effect) a ricochet arrow (fires a single arrow that can bounce X times) a wallbang arrow (shoot through a wall at reduced damage, good when combined with sonic) and a curved arrow (the player is able to curve the arrow around walls, though I dont know how this would be done technically.)
This idea assumes you bring hanzo's damage down to say 100 at full charge with 150-175 on headshot while upping his charge rate and axeing storm arrow completely to make room for all of the above from an input perspective.
This is perhaps the best idea I've seen for Hanzo; making him into a utility and rewarding high skill play with knowing what tools to use for the correct situation.
I have had the same idea 💡 give him a cool set of different arrows! I suggested an explosive arrow that deals extra damage after a second of hitting.(similar to the mag nag time frame) This would give him a one shot back but still has counter counter play as after getting hit players can still use the abilities to possibly save themselves 👍
Keep his damage and draw speed, but remove the movement penalty while drawing an arrow and let him keep it charged on wall climb. Then let his primary fire arrows bounce once or twice off walls, and replace storm arrows with an EMP arrow that acts similar to Sombra's ult, just not in an area and only disabling abilities for like 0.1 seconds.
Just make it so sonic arrow reveals enemy health bar to your team when hitting an enemy directly tbh.
Yes but skilled and deadly is better and healthier for a video game. The tension comes from people struggling with the reality of skill issue
I’ve said it many times, but the role passives not benefiting heroes equally isn’t at all a problem, so long as the heroes are balanced with the effect the role passive has on their balance in mind. Tracer was in a fine spot balance wise and then got the most of anyone out of the dps passive, so she became borderline must-pick at top levels of play, and she got nerfed, which is fair. Likewise, Ashe is doing fine as a hitscan hero benefiting from projectile changes with dynamite getting a big boost from dps passive, but if you put her reload mechanics on a hero that was more apathetic about other changes, that character would probably need a buff with the switch in dps passive. None of that is an indictment of the passive itself though, role passives can still produce interesting design and gameplay elements to the game and personally I’m (mostly) happy with the state of all 3 role passives and what they bring to the game.
Plus, it’s kinda absurd that people want role passives to be character passives instead. We don’t need a whole extra passive to be devised for every character
I like this video. It actually brings valid points into the argument instead of just constant malding...
About the hitboxes, I think the problem is not hitscan vs projectile in this case so much as it is about the granularity of damage. By which i mean how much damage is delivered per increment. For example: a cass bullet and a soldier bullet are very similar in size, but it matters way more if you get hit by a cass bullet than by a soldier bullet. These things were balanced by the effective hit rate, which is way higher in the case of a soldier because of the fire rate. And other factors can come into play as well, such as spread or projectile travel speed and patterns. But when they made the changes solely by hitscan/projectile size classes, the hit chance rates were not proportional within or between these classes. And that disproportionality in this case tended to favor the things with lower initial hit rates, which for balance reasons is mainly things that have highly granular damage.
Then that maybe gets amplified more for hitscan at the highest level because those players already rarely miss on hitscan and tend to be harder to predict for projectile, so the proportional increase in hit rate is shifted further in favor of hitscan. But from a more average perspective, I really feel the hitbox changes on a lot of the projectiles. I think what caused this power shift to then be even further felt for hitscan was the dps passive, giving characters like tracer the ability to effortlessly apply the new dps passive.
Which all goes to show why these kind of sweeping changes to everything at once are usually bad; you have to treat things individually because they aren't the same and if you treat them all the same you are going to have balance problems when some things gain more or less from the same change. And then it's even harder to balance because it's all a big mess and you can't easily isolate the problems anymore.
allow junkrat to go in more than just a vertical arc with his mines, it would give him some horizontal options for movement
The health argument goes against his widow argument. "Imagine if I told you, an OW doom player, that widow would 1day have 200 hp"
Any validity to letting Hanzo charge up his arrow and if he continues holding it, say for another second or two, it gets a little bump in damage to go over the oneshot threshold? Or maybe a cooldown that boosts one arrow above the threshold?
i think a good point is when i am diving as venture or tracer, i am not scared of the widow at close range, but when i am diving the hanzo at close range, i still must be careful and wary of the fact that he poses a threat
i agree with your arguments but you are also i feel going in the wrong direction.
I think what sprixy isn't expressing properly is that hanzo junkrat didn't get adequately compensated for fun nor efficiency. I think that's fair. Just like you say with the value and skill ceiling.
To be fair he is also pretty much blinded by disappointment at such a part of what he enjoyed about the game being gone so you are fair to dismantle about half of what he's saying.
Some arguments on your side are also just breaking apart some of his which just doesn't really bring anything new to the table. Like he says passive is better on Hitscan and you mention widow can't apply them. Which just returns into the widow is broken argument which doesn't have any solution - well but she doesn't need the passive due to her oneshot which is again something that got removed from the projectiles without replacement.
you also consider widow having nothing without her oneshot but earlier in the video say hanzo and junkrat have little to show as well for skill expression and it's just raw mechanics but that seems very much like the case for widow as well.
You obviously are aware of these things but it feels so strange that you don't at least mention the whole contradictory or incomplete nature of what you say when making your point. Obviously the issue is more nuanced and you keep chipping at such smaller corners of it.
I think hanzo players myself included loved the playstyle that got removed which was sneaky hanzo and believe it had counterplay and is a shame it got removed. I also believe that a greater part would be at least somewhat OKAY with his "identity" being removed if they didn't do it so heavy handedly, like the podcast said. but even then I can't imagine the predictive and spammy shots feeling nearly as satisfying as a well aimed oneshot. make it DOT, make it be a OW1 bullet hitbox sized arrow and i think the most commited people would be happy with it while the people complaining about the issues would be mostly satisfied.
The way that the blizzard development team is making storm arrow, a skill that isn't really fun or interesting for the hanzo players nor the enemies the centerpoint of his kit feels like an issue.
As if Genji hit all 3 shurikens in every Dash combo to always guarantee the One Shoot
I think a good option to try out would be to make sonic arrow a oneshot to the head, while not touching his left click. He wouldnt be busted and hanzo players wouldnt cry so much. It would just increase his skill ceiling and make widow duel managable while not breaking him or making him a spam and get lucky hero.
Just give widow a rework so they are all bad. Partially joking but almost all other characters have decent counter play but an insane widow with a solid team is just hard.
My favorite thing about widow one shot is highly intellectual overwatch players crying about "hero fantasy" when mercy bastion torb junkrat hanzo and sym all have had their "hero fantasy" removed. Its as if hero fantasy is irrelevant and we should balance the game instead of caring about how much we might hurt widow players feelings.
Playing hanzo feels like i just dont wanna have any type of fun. I put more arrows in people then bullets and they still walk away with full hp.
How about once Widowmaker's charge gets to 100% it is only there for 3 seconds then it goes back down to 50% or something if you don't make the shot in time.
IMO theres a couple things going on:
1) Hitscan is just always going to be most consistent then projectile and I think the Hanzo/Widow argument is that its going to be harder/inconsistent for Hanzo to get the follow-up shot from range than it would be for a Widow to land a shot and then maybe smg after from up close
2) At least for me i think Hitscan design should be more focused to projectile designs with more skill expression than raw mechanics like a Sombra,
3) This is a little separate but when it comes to Cass i think people mistake easy for good or broken; Cass does have consistent dmg and has gotten a lot of small buffs, but he still has glaring weakness with his mobility and i think as we saw in grand finals; easy value and cheating angles from Mauga/Cass doesnt really work as well against good coordination and mobility from Ball/Winston comps, its not as easy but that doesnt mean its worse if not actually better
I'm so happy to see someone bring out how bad faith it is to suggest that Hanzo's one shot and Widow's one shot are on equal terms, I LOATHE both heroes maybe more than any others on the dps role but it was frankly ridiculous how Hanzo had a one shot when he can also play at mid range, Widowmaker can't even come close. Hanzo's design is entirely salvageable around putting interesting power into other parts of his kit outside of just doing a million damage per shot; faster firerate, more movement, etc. You can't do this with Widowmaker, and that means a more delicate approach is needed.
They have a good widow in a backline - go tracer/genji/sombra so you deal with her in a close quarters where she is quite defenseless
They have hanzo - just run and hide, he will one shot you across the map but if you dare to contest him he becomes even stronger. Ah, and also he counters all the sniper counters with his on cd widow ultimate. I dont think hanzo can work as a sniper and should be more of a projectile version of ashe rather than widow
@@carvode7428
If you dive hanzo as sombra, tracer, then you can put heavy pressure on him and potentially kill him.
Also, hanzo isn't hitscan, so if you go a flying character, he'll have a really hard time, unless he's super good.
Being able to oneshot is crucial to his gameplay and without it, there's no reason to play him over someone like ashe.
also widow can oneshot at ANY range, people act like widows can’t just flick on your head, i’ve blown a decent amount of sombra and tracers off the face of the earth on widow whenever they flank me
Widow can sit in the back with no pressure on her and still get kills consistently. Meanwhile, Hanzo can get shat on when dived in any of his optimal ranges. Comparing Widow one shot to Hanzo is indeed bad faith; one generally has to be in the fight to get the kill, and the other doesn't need to be anywhere near anyone. The point about Widow having a high skill ceiling isn't true either because even if your aim is mediocre, you still have more pressure than anyone in the lobby (depending on the map/point).
@@carvode7428Honestly every single issue you brought sounds like a lack of skill on how to deal with Hanzo
Is there a part 2? Why’d the video just stop
addressing the role passive, perhaps let people select different passives or have hitscans have their own passives and projectiles their own passives. like a passive suited to the character and remove the role passive
What if Hanzo arrows had 2 hitboxes? one that is the tip and the other the edges of the arrow head, you would one shot with the middle point, but its damn hard. you have our hanzo that has a skill shot, nerf some other aspect like dragon and boom or the ult charge needed.
Go ahead and count the number of Mei mains in Top500...don't worry, this shouldn't take long.
Spilo
Bro Spilo is fantastic
Unpopular opinion. Make Hanzo body shot damage do 100 damage, give him a 2.5 headshot damage multiplier. Make storm arrow body shot do 60 damage and keep headshot at 150. Give Hanzo his skill ceiling back. This spam playstyle is unfun for everyone.
there is another idea: remove storm arrow, make arrow hitbox even smaller than he was before season 9, but now his headshot deals 320 damage.
Hanzo needs his one shot.
Dps role needs to be split into 2 roles to balance a passive
Hanzo should get faster draw time up to a cap for each hit. It lets you balance in a way that reduces spam but rewards playing. Make it 6(?) arrows to hit cap and perfectly landing your storm arrows sets you to the cap which feels like a good loop to start designing around.
That increases spam, Hanzo already excels at holding M1 at head level towards enemy mass
I always thought he should be an alternative to Widow. I figured something like a long draw time, but good mobility while an arrow is fully drawn. Widow can charge to 100% pretty quickly, but she moves slow when scoped in, Hanson should charge slow, but have high mobility. He should be able to strafe with no penalty, wall climb while fully drawn, but have a drawing time of 1-2 seconds.
That incentives spam
Honestly that just incentivizes focusing the tank instead of any other target. Its the sojourn problem.
This will ruin tanks.
What if the duration of the passive scaled by damage done, either with a duration cap or headshots excluded (it would last too long on a widow shot on a tank)?
Could range from .5 to 3 seconds for example
the dps passive is a Band-Aid fix for power creep.
That power creep is the result of a much larger problem, the absence of a tank slot.
The Junkrat, Doomfist and Hanzo main having a bunch of bad faith arguments is not surprising at all.
why dont they just give hanzo ammo and put the headshot at a certain distance
On the Cassidy subject: the lower relative change in HP is not a valid counter argument either. Damage numbers and clip sizes stayed the same, so the extra 25 hp is enough to keep Cassidy up long enough to get nano, imo, suzu, etc. Not to mention the damage reduction from combat roll. A 15% increase in a 200k salary buys you a lot more things than a 20% increase in a 60k salary
One thing is that if you learn one hitscan well, it is easier to pick up other hitscans because there is no projectile travel speed prediction to get used to, for every projectile character, you need to get used to the speed and trajectory of every projectile, so overall projectile is harder to learn well initially. As for skill ceiling? I would not know, not a single player in the world has ever gotten to the skill ceiling of any character in the game yet and they probably never will, too many variables.
Nah I think necros has gotten the ceiling for genji
I dont think you understood his argument with widow/hanzo. I honestly think hanzo is useless I wont lie. I play both widow and hanzo and I dont think widow is hard to pick up ngl. Its either u hit the head shot or you dont, know the map or you dont. With hanzo so much goes into it. Hanzo just needs a rework keep the one shot remove storm arrow and give him something else. Im not sure what but Id honestly prefer another utility arrow rather then one that deal damage.
I don't think its a design issue. You simply can't have such a wide variety of characyers and expect every character to always work. Every time a new hero is added it will also upset the balance.
widow is easily balanced by having good map design. shes only problematic when theres super long sight lines with little to no cover that only serve to benefit long hitscans and especially her. doesnt help that these newer maps having long sightlines have almost 0 flank routes as well. like how am i gonna reach the widow on Havana 3rd point widow?? like at least gimme a flank route on the left that has some cover to allow me to close the gap. likewise, projectile heroes stand to gain from smaller maps too (from shorter projectile travel times).
but too bad, blizz sucks at balancing the game, let alone map design balance.
As always Spilo is the only mofo with unironically perfect takes about the balance of the game
Lemme dumb it down. Hitscan=braindead projectile=functioning brain
Noobs friendly characters are bad for noobs because it means noobs cant try higher skill ceiling characters against their same rank without being handicapped. It effectively shrinks the roster for both noob and skilled players.
Alternate title: Projectile is cooked 🔥
I feel like this guys complaints boil down to "the heroes i enjoy are bad, and the heroes i dont like are good"
Hanzo and Junk are ass, sure, but his arguments dont really work well for why they should be able to one shot or why widow and cass dont deserve to be good.
Also, several projectiles that werent talked about are really good right now? Pharah is good, echo is good, genji is fine, venture is great. Pro teams are playing double projectile right now on a lot of maps (genji venture mauga). There are plenty of viable projectile options, just not the ones this guy likes so he is acting like the whole role is ass. No, hanzo and junkrat are ass, projectiles broadly speaking are fine.
Genuinely sounds like a skiesti-style mercy rant video for hanzo and junkrat.
Hanzo, Junk, and the other projectile characters aren't bad, they just take a lot more prediction of where someone will be than just pure aim, which is a much harder skill to learn. See characters like Sewerrat/Vulture. Another thing is, Sojourn, a projectile character, is far and away the best DPS in the game for like the 8th season in a row. And no one seems to realize she's projectile so destroys this entire argument because her railgun is hitscan.
@@PerpetuusTenebris Except her rail is her kill method. Projectiles into tank/shield mostly, rail a squishy. That's why the call her hitscan because the part that does the work is hitscan
@@PerpetuusTenebris if her main gun was a good killing tool and not just something to keep you from railgunning every half a second then she'd be a hybrid but right now her main gun is basically useless aside from building railgun, unless you're up close where the gun is basically hitscan anyway.
I'm a masters Junkrat main and honestly i like that Junkrat is bad now cause he takes skill now and people recognize it. I don't get insulted for playing Junkrat anymore and occasionally i even get the unironic "wow nice shot junk" 😭. Being a Junk main is a STATEMENT now
Hanzo can still one shot. Just not every character he used to.
They should change the DPS passive so that it applies for less time for faster fire rate heroes. They could scale it so that it's 0.5s - 2.0s based on the base fire rate of a hero
I thought that would be a better way to balance it as well.
I understand why you dont like the widow argument (about her still being able to 1 shot) but to me it make sense:
When they removed those 1 shot/combo on Hanzo and junkrat, they pretty much killed the entire sneaky/flanking playstyle that those had.
Sure, it would be absolutely worse on widow because she pretty much only has that 1 playstyle of being relatively further, sniping people.
But it's the same concept. By not giving them a proper rework (more/different abilities) and only nerfing this one aspect, you essentially nuke a unique way to play the character without really fixing the problem. Those playstyles on hanzo/junkrat were realistically the only think that could make them work in the higher ranks IMO.
Like as of right now, the only think really saving hanzo is mercy boosting (which if you ask me, is also not a healthy thing to the game, but that's for another conversation).
And for junkrat, they had to buff his dmg again because he was significantly underperforming.
They should have rework hanzo/junkrat instead of just nerfing their dmg.
Give hanzo some poison arrow or something, not just reducing the dmg or tweaking the HP of heroes...
And if they ever wanted to remove/tweak Widow's 1 shot capability, they cant just do a number thing. They would need to go way beyond that.
Junkrat needs to have more nuanced movement with his mines like a tf2 rocket jump or VALORANT raze level depth and his trap should be changed for another ability to chain into the combo for more skill expression imo. For hanzo, he’s still insanely good at tank busting and fighting close-mid range with more free movement and up close is easier to hit shots on strafe spamming targets. Widow has to keep range and hit a pin point shot up close to stay alive when dove. The moment widow goes for a more close up off angle, you can hear the first shot and turn your attention, hanzo needs a sound nerf and something that allows him to one shot at range again, while controlling his effectiveness up close.
But what you described doesn't defend the widow argument, cuz Spilo's whole point is that Hanzo and Junk can still be played in some ways even without the one shot. Widow could not. And don't get me wrong I despise her, but ultimately it seems to me that the core problem that you highlighted is the lack of reworks and options in these characters' kit, not the fact that one no longer one shots while the other still can.
@@user-cy6xl3vd3fNo they cannot. Because they’ll be worse at jobs that other heroes fufill. Those one shots have the heroes the identity they have today. It’s equivalent because Widow still does a lot of damage and can grapple pretty far. She just can’t one shot while still being able to fire faster than Hanzo. Your arguments fall apart
I guess it's just impossible for spilo to be not biased agasint hanzo. Anything you don't agree is a "bad faith argument".
I feel like HP adjustments should be able to make up the slack from difference in skill ceiling, without drastically affecting how heroes play at their skill floor. Let's say Hanzo and Junkrat get another 25 HP- that gives them more time to play against Tracer while being able to oneshot her almost as effectively. Or let's say Cass loses his extra 25 compared to Ashe- he still has more burst damage and a clear identity compared to her, but he's not tankier. Small changes like this should really be considered after a near-identical buff to all DPS heroes, projectile and hitscan alike.
No ones talking about how good venture is in high elo
Tbh, I have to say reapers one shot was part of his identity. I think we should take what you said about junkrat and apply it to reaper. It was high risk, high reward with a high skill ceiling for one shots.
What if Hanzo was able to fire instantly but at the cost of dealing something like 50 damage but he can charge the shot to one shot but the draw is longer and change the speed so it has a different learning curve
The primary can be like Io from paladins then the charge feel like regular or slightly changed to shake up the character so Hanzo mains don't just frag out at the start and have to relearn the character's projectile
The issue with that is it’s just a downgrade. You’re making a hero miserable simply because the game format sucks. How many heroes have to lose their identity until there’s none left?
@RIP_ZYZZ1738 how is that removing Hanzo's identity? He'll be able to one shot but the draw time is altered and the speed is changed to make it harder for mains to just one tap so he keeps the identity as a sniper and dragon strike is still a thing
@@mr.meeseeeks5544 Because you may return his identity but all you’ve done is make him inferior and unnecessary to play
@RIP_ZYZZ1738 he's already inferior to a lot of characters in the game. Want a sniper? Play widow. Want someone who can two shot? Play Cass. Want an ult that kills or divides the map? Sym wall is better as well as a good majority of other dps. Would the rework I mentioned be fun for everyone? No but no rework is. What changes would you do?
I think widow should do 200hp damage on a fully charged headshot with 100dps poison damage over 1 second. Keeps her 1 shot in a 1v1 but allows some counterplay.
Then you just have widowmakers throw venom mine into the enemy team for instant aoe damage
I'd like to see the next dps be a good "main" dps with a projectile weapon. I know we have sojourn, but she's more of a hybrid.
Well then that dps character has to have range or else they’d just get out poked by every hitscan. “Main dps” isn’t necessarily a real thing/not a real thing. It’s hitscan and flex Ik you know that. So giving a projectile character enough range to duel a hitscan is VERY VERY hard to balance.
Do you think it would be easier to balance one shots based on the risk a player has to take to execute them rather than how hard they are to execute? I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone complain about rein charge one shotting (except for when it’s buggy) and I think that’s mostly because in order for you to get one shot with a charge you either have to make a severe mistake, or the rein has to take a big risk (long windup and it puts you out of position) where as a hero like widow is constantly hated because she can do it from afar with very little risk involved. Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying one shots shouldn’t be reliant on a players mechanical skill, but I feel like balancing them around how risky they are to execute would feel significantly better.
Phenomenal take. There’s 25:14 no risk for widow or Hanzo pre nerf etc. rein charge is a great example.
But how would you do that for hanzo and widow?
@@steel2572I mean, doesn’t Hanzo already have to do that because he has to get into medium or close range to execute his one shots reliably? This makes him very weak to dive and if people have a problem diving him then I suggest nerfing storm arrow.
It’s unfortunate that many people feel so frustrated with the game try point towards something and call it an issue when it may not be bad for the reason they come up with. I think hitscans being dominant is just the thing now and it will swing to projectiles and people will be complaining about that then. With regards to one shots we should move the opposite direction and remove as much as possible and replace it with more engaging and consistent damage rather than hey I see you and you’re dead. It’s not fun to be one the receiving end and most times you just feel cheating cause you wondered how could I have counter that in the moment when you just couldn’t because you were out of position for that period of time. It shouldn’t feel like if you step out of cover for one second you’re dead, it’s never fun that way and is incredibly frustrating.
Junkrat doesn't need the DPS Passive, he already takes no damage from his own explosives, take that away and then worry about how he benefits from a Role Passive. Dude is just a little asshole anyway
A quick fix to Hanzo right now would be to lower his base arrow damage to 90 and his storm arrow damage to 65 but make storm arrow work like Doomfist's primary fire instead of being an ability.
Basically Hanzo has 5 storm arrows and everytime he uses one it comes back after 3 second and 5 second if it's his last one. Basically it means that storm arrow now fully replenished only after 17 seconds, but he can use them in a more versatile way, by comboing a headshot from his normal arrow into a headshot from his storm arrow. It makes mercy pocket less valuable as she only makes storm arrow more forgiving instead of affecting his time to kill, forces hanzo to spend a ressource to "one shot", but gives back a lot of what makes the character cool while keeping his current breakpoints the same.
He has the right idea, he just messed it up in his head, then messed it up again trying to put it in words, and then finally messed it up again structuring his arguments. He has some right general idea, just horrible arguments.
When it comes to skill floor, the main question is "how much skill does it take to be consistently valuable?" I'd argue junkrat is actually higher skill floor than Soldier or Cass. Give the average gamer Soldier or Cass and they'll be literally immediately decent. Give someone Junkrat, and I guarantee they will be trash until they know at least the maps well enough to know where to spam. And that's the thing, any long-range projectile will inherently take more skill than hitscan, but the caveat that brings a projectile hero's skill floor down is how much value their spam can get.
Hanzo's issue was simply that his one shot was spammable. Its toxic and low effort, and made sure he was no where close to the skill floor of Widow. They are right to nerf it, even though I really like Hanzo and want him to be playable. Without his low effort one shot though, he suffers the most from the projectile issue with nothing to compensate for it.
The projectile issue isn't about kit complexity though, its that its just less consistent at long range. Why require good mechanics + have to predict what will happen (never 100% reliable) + inevitably just lose your window of opportunity sometimes before your projectile can get there - when you can just go hitscan and only need mechanics for better control over the match? The only good projectile is close-range or AoE projectile, where its easier than hitscan bc of the bigger size + travel time no longer impacts consistency much. This is why Genji is so good + Pharah, Venture, and Echo can have a solid spot as generally decent heroes, despite being projectile.
One approach is to make projectile stronger, but then that makes mindless spam value too high, like old Hanzo. Imo, they need to give projectile heroes really good utility buffs and reworks. Its really the only thing left to give. Hitscans are already high damage, consistent, flexible, and independent. Projectile can never compete in these areas without being obnoxious, so utility is a natural area they can get generous buffs in. They have already it to some extent with Junkrat CC, Mei CC + wall, Hanzo sonic, etc - but its clearly just not enough, they need more impactful utility to compete.
Note, Genji doesn't need those buffs, bc he really doesn't suffer from the projectile issue. He's one of the few heroes that benefit from being projectile. But the next issue is then how to make the utility not toxic, bc OW players tend to hate utility a lot. Utility also tends to be much stronger in higher ranks than lower ranks, making a balance issue too.
Widow change idea
Reduce headshot damage but add her poison effect to headshots
Sounds a bit aids
It’s a good idea on paper to start with. The problem is the satisfaction of hearing the elim and dink sound simultaneously is gone. But it should’ve never been in the game to me personally
And then what happens if you get a nice headshot on a tracer and she kills you before the poison kills her and you guys trade! Corny
@@Greazzy_G bad character design. Call whatever rework corny but overall she’s unhealthy for the game. But a certain type of players flock to her.
@@MetroBreezyy I don’t fully understand why people think she’s so unhealthy for the game! I’m assuming it’s the 1 shot capability. And how she can control space just my aiming. I understand it can be frustrating but there’s enough counters to make her swap that I don’t see it as a problem.
They should update the DPS passive duration based on the damage hero instead of using a random universal value for all DPS heroes. The harder it is to apply = longer duration
Let's give Junkrat a 4 second duration
Hanzo receives a 3 second duration
Tracer/Sombra reduced to 1.5 seconds?
Something like that, this is mostly to make the DPS passive more consistently useful for projectile heroes
Widow can sit in the back with no pressure on her and still get kills consistently. Meanwhile, Hanzo can get shat on when dived in any of his optimal ranges. Comparing Widow one shot to Hanzo is indeed bad faith; one generally has to be in the fight to get the kill, and the other doesn't need to be anywhere near anyone. The point about Widow having a high skill ceiling isn't true either because even if your aim is mediocre, you still have more pressure than anyone in the lobby (depending on the map/point).
can we all agree to ignore all of this and make overwatch 3 a 5v5 but all tanks
Your joking, right?
I've seen countless creators respond that you can't remove Widowmakers oneshot because that's her entire hero identity/ all she has. But that's such a shortsighted response.
They don't have to outright remove Widowmakers ability to oneshot and leave it at that. Hanzo for example got scatterarrow replaced by storm arrow, which changed him from a character that was all about the oneshot to a more rounded out kit. Give Widowmakers kit a similar re-imagining.
The biggest issue I see is their complete lack of communication for the different treatment of the heroes. Hanzo has gotten silent nerfs to the quality of life of his kit for multiple patches now (sonic arrow, wallclimb charge, oneshot) because people found them annoying to play against. This clearly shows that they prioritize the fun of the receiver to the fun of the individual player.
But in widowmakers case, a character that has for years been disliked in high level ranked play because of her oppressiveness, they give her a compensation buff alongside the projectile size increase...
And if you suggest that they implement the aprils fools widowmaker change of making part of her shot damage-over-time, people dissmiss that idea outright because it felt bad for the widowmaker to not get the immediate oneshot. But those same people agree that the last couple of Hanzo changes are fair despite them adding similar levels of frustrations to his gameplay and ruining the original hero fantasy of the character.
i wanna see you go in depth for 7+ minutes with ability kits in a completely different slightly irrelevant game like Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare
Is it bad faith though? Like with him being projectile and they both used to having a one shot and we still retaining it. But I get your points
I've had a sombra in 8 of the last 10 games I've had in gold, I would not say her floor is high anymore. Skill ceiling may be high but her floor is incredibly low for a flank that good, people are absolutely abusing her in low elo rn
And if anyone disagrees, just think about this for a second, we all know the devs balance off stats mostly, and we also know from many pro players rn like samito that sombra is seeing very little play at the top, samito even keeps saying hes like one of the only sombra players and that's why he says he hates how people are saying shes brain dead now, but think about that for a second, if shes only being played by a few good players at the top like samito, than where are the stats that are preventing her from being buffed coming from? They gotta be in low rank, and to be able to offset the fact she sees almost no play at the top, she needs to be played alot in low elo which is what is happening.
Also cass is the only hitscan to not have their bullet size decreased. They slowly hit every hitscan but left his and ashes alone which is why they feel so cancerous to face now and i was saying for ages after s9 that they need the same bullet size adjustment as widow or soldier but here we are with a cass that fires cannon balls at you, and while its correct that projectile also got an Increase, theres a big difference between projectile and hitscan when it comes to size and if you remember, they gave hitscan 2 to 3 times the increase as projectile got when hitscan is supposed to be much smaller than projectile to make it fair and now hitscan and projectile are nearly the same size across the board when projectiles should be infinitely bigger so I get where hes coming from with that point that cass and hitscan in general just have way to big of bullets in comparison to projectile now and it's made all hitscan heros, even sombra and tracer infinitely easier than projectile.
Pharah and Torb are the only projectile DPS that are fun/fair/balanced. Junk and Hanzo have so much potential to be skillful and fun, but their design is too rng as they are right now.
Hanzo shouldn’t 1 tap anyone, give him a bleed ability so he *could* 1 shot but requires him to hit his arrows while nerfing projectile speed.
Junk gets countered way too much because he lacks self sustainability and range. What if we increased projectile speed, but nerf his mine dps by half. He becomes more mobile and more accurate, but is more punishable if you dive him. This way Junk can be played more skillfully than complete spam.
What if projectile heroes had their own passive where they don't get current dps passive and instead direct hits slightly slow enemy for a little bit? It would make oneshot combos on projectile heroes unnecessary, buff their flank playstyles, and overall make it more rewarding for hitting a shot while setting up the next one. EX, would make mei better, make it unnecessary to bring back freeze, and either give the mei the option to focus more on hitting headshots or weave between left clicking and headshotting to min max slow and damage. Also giving it a slight cool down so that it can't be spammed and has to be well timed would be nice too.
Just remove both their “one shots” done. Move their dmg around to be more consistent but less burst. Wasn’t that the whole point of the health pool buff?
I would give up lunge, wall climb, sonic, strorm arrow, rate of fire, all the proj speed buffs for one shot back. Change it from apples to oranges to apples to apples thats all we want. Or buff widow elsewhere so we can nerf one shot on her
if widow can't one shot people would just play ashe
i took a shot every time you said bad faith arguement and my kidneys failed
i hope you find better junk content or motivation so you can realize the glass skill ceiling is your problem and not a design problem! ❤
Hog skill expression was less reliant on his combo pre-rework. Now Hog practically only has skill expression via the combo. Can we just delete him?
Does spilo still spend 7 hours a day searching for different kind of bugs to eat or did he stop doing that?
Give widow more damage falloff, more 35 Meter no one shot
It is wild how much Cassidy projectile size change helped. Anecdotally I went from a trash tier Cassidy who could only play soldier to an absolute menace on the cowboy.
How didnit affect your average accuracy? Personally as a diamond 4 it probably only added like 5% to my 50%. It might probably be due to my love of fanning the hammer on a tank at any opportunity but still.
@@carvode7428 I don’t know. I guess on Cassidy I was missing every shot by exactly as much as they buffed the projectile. I can’t explain it.
I was going nuts on soldier too until they nerfed the size a little. That initial season 9 buff was auto aim on 76.
@@carvode7428Cassidy definitely got easier
Winston dive should always be meta
All dive should always be meta
Me, being oneshot by Hanzo: what could I do to avoid this situation? Check their pick? Check his positioning? Consider the timing between his shots?
Them: uNhEaltHy! NeRf!11
But the timing can simply be random it’s a variable. Where hitscan is not a variable. Hanzo also has pretty good movement.
widow needs a rework simple as that. Toxic design.
the death of projectile dps was caused by their numbers being too low, there, i just saved you 30 minutes
I'm not sure if your using the term "bad faith" in the way its normally used. When you say someone's arguing in "bad faith" your specifically saying that you think their arguing disingenuously, saying things that they don't truly believe, Maybe you think this guy is bad faith but I'm not sure that your meaning to say that?
yup he clearly doesn't know what the term bad faith means
@@clankfish Its possible he does but I doubt it, Its a pretty loaded accusation to make about someone your unfamiliar with, And I don't think that's really Spilo's style.
I took it as him using "bad faith" interchangeably with "uncharitable" - misrepresenting (a situation in this context) in order to tear it down.
It doesn't quite fit the textbook definition of bad faith, as the video he is reviewing is maybe only misleading by ignorance rather than active intent, but I think it's still easy for the point of his message to get across to listeners through context clues
The video was saying that Hanzo and Widowmaker are the same in their role so they should both be nerfed the same, when really they're not that similar when thinking about the positions they play ingame and what their kits allow for outside of the 1 shot
The video also goes on to talk about how cassidy is unfun to play against because his mentality is "this guy doesn't deserve this shot because his bullet is 0.05 cm bigger than it used to be" or "this guy has 25 more hp than me" but it's not framed as "this is my negative confirmation bias, it causes me to dig a deeper mental hole every time I can justify myself" it's framed as a genuine criticism of the character's design, which is probably something he's not even conscious enough to realize he's doing
Obamna. Please don’t bomb me😢
Mcree went front 225 to 275. He did not have 250 hp prior to the HP changes across the board. Spilo is incorrect at 17:45.
His hp has increased by 22,2%. For regular 250 hp character it's 25% (from 200 to 250).
ok but hitscan constantly has the consistent threat of being able to kill you whenever you are visible on the screen so long as you are in the effective range projectile doesn't have that, and when projectile characters do have the ability to kill you consistently in their effective range it is nerfed immediately, even close range characters such as junkrat and venture, and I don't think the skill floor argument is fair either. Venture has to be close to the enemy and cycle cooldowns while pressuring from close angles, yeah it might be harder to hit the shots on ashe but she can sit far back and just point and click, the risk to reward ratio for hitscans is and always has been much greater and the reward has gotten even higher with the dps passive while the risk stayed the same.
Proyectile characters can peek behind cover in a way that they minimize the ammount of time they're exposed to enemy fire.
They both have their pros and cons. Yes, being inside the screen of a hitscan is imminent threat, but likewise, not being inside of it means they cant do shit to you.
@@insomniostudios4359 you heard it folks, stay in spawn when you play against hitscans
Jokes aside, with the removal of oneshot, that just delete the advantage of corner peeking. Why do you even corner peek if you cant follow up for a kill, and how do you get space if youre just giving them "free" space innately because theyre screening you. Aagre's reddit question pointed out that hanzo has the lowest ttk if hes not preparing at first made alot more sense why i feel better playing cass despite having double the hours on hanzo.
@@insomniostudios4359Im not saying projectile cant do anything im saying what they can do simply isnt as good as the threat of hitscan, that consistency at any range will always be better because consistency is one of the most sought after qualities in competitive games. Not being able to shoot at someone in cover does not cancel out or balance the fact they can consistently kill anyone on their screen from a safe distance. This is proven by the fact that hitscan has been almost always meta in the history of overwatch.
People are dooming over hanzo for no reason. Hes not even bad imo. He IS way less satisfying without the headshot. I think a drawback speed buff would make him perfectly fine and a fun mid range duelist
@joshuacopley2331 So instead of restoring Hanzo's hero identity, you want to make him more like Soldier: 76.
So you think him being a shell of his former shell is ok? Yeah, that’s not a typo. Storm arrow already made him a shell of his former self. I’d rather have Hanzo be in his extreme off meta state with the one shot back. Makes most of the memories and identity of the hero
Hanzo is literally mid at best
I think your dead wrong, hanzo is bad, his duals are solely reliant on his storm arrows, but so is his poke. He is very hurt by the season 9 changes and that’s fine, the character needs a rework. As is you can’t even kill with 2 body shots, and trying to hit three shots as hanzo is not a reasonable ask especially since his mobility is not great defensively
@@StevenGeraciwe don’t need 2 dps heros who can both 1 shot headshot in a 5v5 format widowmaker fits that fantasy more than hanzo plus why should he be 250 hp 1 shot headshot with walls ability and burst/shield breaking ability oh yea a dash and wall climb? make sense
RAHHHH
I don't think Hanzo should have a one shot. Random kills around corners don't feel good for either players.
What if storm arrow was on right click and each arrow was on an individual cooldown lick fire strike. Allowing Hanzo to immediately fire a storm arrow at a target from range after landing a head shot without burning his entire cooldown.
also get rid of the lunge cooldown and make it reset on landing like Genji double jump.
Getting one shot doesn't feel good from anybody, getting one shot by hanzo and always defaulting to "you're dying to a random arrow" is just bias
I think he should have much slower fire rate, higher projectile speed and worse storm arrows (In literally any way, slower spam rate, lower damage or amount of them, literally any medium neef to that ability) and then he can have a one shot.
This is overwatch not CS nothing should one shot. Maybe an ultimate but even then you should be required to have some supplemental damage to finish the kill otherwise we might as well remove the support role if they can't interact with the damage in the game.
I think that Echo, Tracer, Genji, and Ashe are the only DPS that can be healthy when they are meta.
"No one likes getting spammed through a choke and get oneshot by a Hanzo" proceeds to say that the solution is to allow him do exactly that.
If you know that there are two problems (Hanzo and Widow oneshotting), one of those is fixed and the other one is not, why propose a solution that is to bring back one of those problems that got fixed? Why not propose to remove the problem entirely???