Shermer is a good skeptic, but I'll doubt how much he has overviews over all geological data of history, paleontology and archeology related... go to the Randall Carlson podcast... I mean the Göbekli tepe ok.. But there WAS a lower sea level before during the ice age. There WAS a sudden major change due to natural disasters ending the ice age AND killing off loads of big animals. The sea levels around Azores WAS lower , quite much. Atlantis myth is from Platon about the islands west of Gibraltar. Well, avoid strawmen. We are not talking advanced. Like it means today. But culture. The problem with some of the crypto archeologists is often that they mix up with postmodernist stuff exaggerating how advanced ancient societies were. THAT pushes off the mainstream. However the mainstream even denies the younger dryas catastrophe and the end of the ice age ending suddenly...
I was on a construction crew in 2016 at a old sears building from 1924. Concrete takes a 100 years to cure and concrete is weak and brittle compared to granite. I had to drill out 3)4 inch holes in this 100 year old concrete. It literally took forever and i used many hammer drill bits. The idea of drilling out 6 inch hows on granite!! If you don't have diamonds on the bit you will be there forever! The only people who can appreciate this Ancient work and the true integrity of granite are those who have dealt with and worked with hard stone. People who've never done construction will never be able to understand, period.
I think it's mainly our modern day perspective that kind of blurs the lines of possibility. There are findings of stone age jewelry that are so meticulously crafted it's hard to believe people were spending a couple hours per day for months if not years to create just a single piece of jewelry. But it might be very well possible that after survival they would dedicate all of their remaining resources to find meaning in something - be it in a believe, in trinkets, astronomy etc.
The "Solar Death Ray" on YT with Fresnel glass melting rock into obsidian - is very interesting in regard more to Mayan obsidian polished steps in their amazing wall structures (could they have done similar with multiple polished gold parabolic mirrors?). Also the drilling core spiral score declinations measured in ancient Egypt are not achievable with modern diamond tipped core drilling equipment....clearly there's a number of technologies that were available that have since been lost. Including the movement over extensive terrain and lifting and accurate placement of 50 ton stones to cosmic alignments.... Galactic level Master Craftsman at work!
@@wildcountry. Or we just lack an understanding how they did it with simple tools. Here's a video how one person can move and lift a 20 ton block czcams.com/video/E5pZ7uR6v8c/video.html Most blocks used in pyramids are close to around 2 tons. A lot of things are possible because our minds are so good to come up with solutions.
I often wonder if guys like Carlson actually believe their own grift or it it doesn't matter at all as long as people buy the books and invite them to speak.
@@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677 hey stupid fuck. did you know NOT one of these experts has ever been on any sites , they got their degrees by reading a book. graham physically and went scuba diving in deep oceans. he can verify what others wrote about. tell me who the fuck the expert , you uneducated moron.
One thing that strikes me: If only 1/20th of the already-astonishing and game changing Göbekli Tepe site has been excavated, how is it that every archaeologist in the world isn't walking around door-to-door collecting donations like the old _March of Dimes_ to fund the rest?
lol You have to watch the whole podcast. That's Randall Carlson, he's the most intelligent/level headed among them. He's also a berserker. He has a big info dump at one point in it too, takes everyone to school.
He basically says cave paintings are are more interesting and the same thing to make the pyramids or Göbekli Tepe. Just no anyone can walk into a cave and do what they painted right now but no one can make the Göbekli Tepe or the pyramids the way they did back then with no modern technology helping them. what a stupid thing to say and he is more educated then we are on this topic just shows educated people can still be stupid at times.
He’s referring to abstract thinking and those cave paintings he’s talking about are 40 50,000 years old compared to something that was built 30,000 years later
I love when David makes a perfect example of what Graham is saying, in an attempt to refute it. . It is 100% a great explanation for how these two key technologies came about simultaneously in one generation.
'academia' is toast these days - 'copper chisels' ????....... 'pounding stones' ????....... 'tombs'????.......... nobody is buying this nonsense anymore
Michael started by saying there is "no evidence to your claim so it is not true" then goes "There is no evidence so my claim is true". rules for thee but not for me
What's the matter with you using common sense like that? Don't you know the world revolves around scientists they should have been honored to leave behind their precious tools for scientists 10,000 year later.
@@dudelikeseriously8418 Who says it was meant to be hidden? Like the guy above you says we don’t know who buried it. It could’ve been another people who came long after the creators. Could be beefing tribes, tribes who didn’t worship those gods who couldn’t destroy it because of how large and advanced it was tried to bury it... Also as someone who uses tools everyday I’m very meticulous about cleaning up & making sure all my tools are accounted for, and my tools are no where near as valuable as theirs. I can go to any Home Depot to grab drills or tons of wrenches, they were building their own tools which took time and more precious. Why would they leave them behind unless they died with them which is usually how ancient tools are found.
We find tools in ancient archeological sites all of the time. Tools get lost, thrown away, forgotten about, etc. You’d expect a hyper-advanced civilization to leave something behind beyond structures that have more reasonable explanations behind their construction
The skeptic in this vid could not have been much worse about trying to argue against the main points of lost civilization though. He honestly strengthens what he's trying to argue against more than anything else.
Yes they did, nails, wood off cuts, pieces of plasterboard, wall plugs, packaging from wall sockets etc. 10 years in working in construction you see it a lot.
Even if hypothetically you can’t find the tools, we have the structure. They must have been built somehow. The tools existed. Whether they are destroyed or we just can’t pinpoint their location is irrelevant. We know they existed.
Cave paintings to moving megastructures is “not much of a leap” ? It could take months to move a single stone and it would take days to paint.. Absolutely a masterclass by Randall and Graham in critical thinking.. I look forward to the Graham and mainstream dude that are going to debate on Joes show in late august 👍
What do you mean “critical thinking”? Believing in something that has no basis in evidence is the antithesis of critical thinking. Simply questioning academia is not critical thinking. Please question mainstream scientific theories, and work towards proving the theory; that is how science works. Coming up with your own theories that have no basis in scientific evidence is story-telling, not science. Hancock keeps saying he’s not a archeologist, yet wants to be accepted as an expert by the archeological community. You can’t have you cake and eat it too.
a few years back my brother and i were driving through a state park and at one point we came across an old pickup off the side of the road completely rusted through with trees growing through it. nature can swallow of traces of civilization in decades, so just imagine what 10k years can do.
Agreed. Also the search for trash and tools Which tools and trash are you exactly looking for this is long before the invention of plastic which trash are we expecting to find? Tools from which material exactly that we can expect to still be found ?
Exactly why I argue that most scientist (people with degrees) are mostly mrons. Most of them, having an experience working with more than a few, don't want to see what happens in front of there eyes if it challenges their own dogma, and they do amazing mental gymnastics to justifies their own believes.
@@ivandelac764 lol do you have the same degree or are you a book warrior with out a degree but you believe your smart you need the schooling to know what the hell you’re talking about or why have the degree
@Jurassic Monkey Well im not an expert about the subject but our ancestors came to Anatolia around 1000 years ago. On the other hand Joe and his guests are talking about 11000 years ago. There is a huge time gap but, i heard from somewhere in the past that locals were considering the mountain top already a sacred place before the discovery. Ofcourse it's a rumor but thats what i heard. God maybe i heard it from this video can't remember, it has been 3 years since i watched it. :)
I super miss this Joe. I remember watching this after work years ago while cooking dinner and then waiting to finish watching it before eating. I still remember that night. Now I often find its a lot of anger from either Joe or guests or something way too focuses on a minute detail of society (i.e. so called culture wars).
His name is Randall Carlson. Very interesting guy. He doesn’t step in as archaeology isnt his profession. He’s a geologist. Listen to his podcast with Joe rogan 1v1 - you won’t regret it!
LMAO I read this and thought you were referring the main guy and was reading comments when suddenly Randal: “IT SEEMS TO ME...” Lol I go holy shit! Where do you come from?!
I have no clue how I’ve missed this podcast for so long. I’ve been glued since. Thank you for bringing the coolest topics ever. As a closet history fanatic this debate is amazing. Well done, very well done. New fan here 💪🏾👍🏾💪🏾👍🏾
Shermer: "We can't find pieces of broken pottery or discarded tools, so there is nothing to see here". Hancock: "Did you happen to notice the monumental megalithic construction, by any chance ?"
@@Prometheus4096 What if they didn't make pottery? What if they carved wooden bowls or had naturally occurring vessels? Also, didn't they say it was purposefully buried, implying the people left, and, on top of that, that they've uncovered only ~2% of the structures? The lack of pottery at this stage isn't ruling anything out, imo.
I'm in turkey now I will go and find the answers stand by folks Update 2023 people keep asking for updates i only encountered cannibal chickens my mission ended there. My conclusion Turkey is a land of ancient structures and cannibal chickens go check it out 👽
here's an idea: people built the site. Conditions changed- climate, drought, famine, maybe war, something- and the people who built it were gone. New people moved in and started farming. They found the old stone 'gods' on the hill unnerving. It's like living next to somebody's graveyard. They didn't dare destroy it and risk the wrath of these unknown gods, so they buried it so they wouldn't have to look at it.
@Nick Nack but regardless of the construction process they carved stones and built a massive site and lived in that area for that long, with a population big enough to build those structures, and you think they wouldn't have been able to make pottery? Nothing else but stone would survive for 12000 years.
Graham sounds more educated, well thought and well spoken than Michael Shermer and Graham is not a trained scientist. Meanwhile Michael Shermer seems to be trying very hard to dismiss Graham's theories with weak arguments and he was fighting a losing battle.
Almost like it’s a silly way to communicate what is true. Debates are fun, but judging what is true just because someone is more well spoken seems silly to me.
@@bisk1407 Debates are worse than that. There are various tactics that can be used, by a skilled and aggressive debater, to make your opponent appear weak or wrong or to force them into a corner which the audience may not see happening right before them. Debates are more akin to salesmanship than discussion.
I would like to recommend Miniminutemen, a channel here on CZcams that made a multi part series discussing every point and episode Hancock made in his Netflix show and explains and debunks all of them. I was intrigued by Grahams points but watching Miniminutemen really put it in perspective how ridiculous some of his claims are.
@@kristofferlodesjo5781- "Miniminutemen"? Are you seriously recommending that garbage channel? Why not some low IQ TikTok influencer then, or some trash cable television channel like the History Channel, or The Learning Channel (TLC)? I'm just asking.
@@kristofferlodesjo5781 Miniminutemen did a very good job on some points, but i felt they, like this michael guy missed the point of some of grahams statement. Ultimatley, we know have buildings from atleast 9,000 bc. Miniminute men seemed to give very crap explanations on that point. Either Hunter Gatherer somehow how the extra man power to be able to have astronomers, and skilled labourers. which is unlikely considering evidence of agriculture was in mesopetamia atleast 13,000 years ago. Or there was a civilisation before the sumerians. in which case Graham would be off by a couple thousand years but still would be ultimatly right about a lost civilisation.
Hey Graham...I'm 82 and a grandma and l started reading the Emmanuel Velikofksy books when I was 15. People laugh, but what's so fearful to skeptics about thinking outside the box? It's the "outside the box thinkers people" who have moved civilization forward while the skeptics have worked hard to stone, behead, imprison and burn at the stake the people who have looked at the ocean and said what's over there or looked at the heavens and said those specks of light are trillions of galaxies. I was a Physiotherapist for 43 years of my life and just getting people to think about new techniques was painful. To my way of thinking skeptics are bull headed because they lack imagination. The gentleman skeptic on this Joe Rogan program has the same hardened flat affect look on his face as 30 years or so ago. Keep searching Graham even if we never learn who carved and moved the Easter Island wonders or raised megalithic stones to the tops of mountains!!! ❤
Attention Work Crew: This site is to be buried with reverence, and your tools are incredibly valuable. Please remove all tools from the work site at the end of your shift. Failure to do so will result in termination, and may enrage the gods. Thank you for your cooperation. - The Management
@Nick Nack Well, either way, it amounts to the same thing. The more we learn, the more questions we have to ask. It would be fantastic to excavate the entire site and learn more about our history.
Fact , we know when it was barried. That's the only fact . It could have been built the week before, the year before 10, 000 years before. Ant think 9n the Actual age the site was built is all just opinion.
@Nick Nack maybe it's just me, but the comment you responded to seemed to me only showing that the oft-repeated dating info only establishes a lower boundary on the age of the site.
It's amazing watching these men discuss this topic, I'm glad they were all able to have an intelligent discussion from different angles, I enjoyed every view point, it's weird when you're just listening and not trying to see who is wrong and who is right.
I've seen this episode in full a few times and always catch myself on the clips. Every episode with Randal and Graham is worth watching. I would and do recommend it.
@Stan Armenyan only an idiot would believe he lost the argument. I bet you believe property tax is a benevolent process. The type to kill if told by the "law". Since you are stupid I'm insulting you.
During the conversation, they talk about the possibility that the builders of Gobeklitepe were hunter-gatherers and then that they were agrarians, but there is an important and overlooked space between the two, which is sedentary Neolithic cultures. These are people who settled in an area around an abundant, naturally occurring food source. In the case of Gobeklitepe, that food source was the ancient Einkorn wheat that is native to the slopes and valleys of the nearby mountains. Geneticist Spencer Wells said that all of the 17 varieties of wheat cultivated globally are genetically linked to this original native wheat. So people settled around it, ate it, drank beer made from it, watched it grow, learned to cultivate and all the while, they were adapting to the new concept of settlement. One of the first problems that arise when people begin to settle is waste management. Waste is a problem because it attracts pests, disease, and animals and eventually large predators that can be threatening to the vulnerable members of the colony. There is no evidence of habitation at Gobeklitepe because it was probably situated remotely from the dwellings. There is evidence of the site being in use for at least 2,000 to 3,000 years. Imagine how many people would have been born and died during that period of time. So what did they do with the dead? I think the stone circles were used for sky burials, which is a method of internment still used today in Tibet. The surrounding landscape was not very well suited for in the ground burials. Shallow graves were dangerous because they could be excavated easily by animals and the animals would cultivate an appetite for human flesh and would cause them to prey on the local population. I suppose cremation could have been an option, but it could be challenging in that environment to gather enough wood to fuel fires intense enough to cremate. Vultures do not and would not adapt to preying on humans. It makes a lot of sense to place the human remains in a stone circle with raised walls that were only open to the sky so that vultures and other birds could clean the bones, which can then be gathered and stored or buried by the surviving family members. There is evidence of both small t shaped pillars and bone burial under the plaster floors of domestic dwellings in nearby Catalhoyuk, one of the earliest known housing structures. Over time, as ritual sky burial use declined, people could have, simply out of habit or because it was the right thing to do in this place, used it as a landfill. It could have also been a place where people throw something in for good luck, like a penny in a fountain or when people rub the nose of a statue or something like that. My feeling is that the best place to look for clues of why these structures are there and what they were used for, is human nature. The habits, instincts, fears and desires that are naturally and deeply a part of all of us. The better we understand our own nature, the more we will unravel these kinds of mysteries.
One of my personal theories about ancient civilizations is the reformability of metal. I suspect that people all throughout history would find metal from some older civilization and melt it down and reuse it because it is easier to reform an old metal tool than it is to excavate new metal. Clay pottery as well can be reused, just smash the pots to dust and let them sit in water for a few months and you have fresh clay. Even if it took a couple years, it would still be a huge source of reusable clay to have a pit somewhere soaking old clay objects. Also, things like wood and leather, they can be taken to make new things, and wood can always be burned. So I think that they could have easily had all these things, but in the eons since many people have come in and picked apart the reusable materials until there is nothing left.
Incredible point, as weird as it may sound primitive technology on youtube(the channel) always talks about reusing old pottery to either reinforce bad clay or as a way to just have more potting clay and credits many many ancient techniques from all over the world and it wouldn't be a stretch to say the same for another reusable material that's difficult to find
That's a good point, and we know that has certainly happened to some extent over the ages. One example that comes to mind: there used to be a lot of iron on the Coliseum in Rome, but it was stripped off and made into weapons during times when Rome was under siege, and they never bothered to put it back on again. Throughout most of known history, the norm has been to repair something rather than throw it away. Only now have our manufacturing processes gotten efficient enough that it makes sense to create something new rather than repair something old.
I notice that Scientist do not talk about the culture that must have existed to create this site. Notice the carvings are not into the rock but are actually carved from the rock. This requires a higher level of artistry. In order to have these artists you need a support system. Using the model developed to estimate native American tribes prior to the Europeans coming into their lands, we know for each warrior it took 11 other Indians to support that one warrior. Now to support one artisan, you would need 11 people. People planting and growing food, people building houses, people making clothes, people making tools, religious leaders. This shows a large and well-organized society.
JRE at its prime. Interesting topics from not very well known people who have nothing but facts and very colorful opinions about things that actually matter
I very much like Graham, but I can’t help but notice his malice towards sherbet, whilst shermer does not show that same feeling. I think Graham had gotten a little too worked up in certain moments but I guess when you are THAT passionate, it would make sense for someone to want to defend the subject so vigorously.
This Guy: "Why is there no tools or trash at this obviously sacred place?" Me: I've been to a bunch of churches and have never seen the tools used to build them still laying about or left my trash behind inside them.
@@theproprod211 That's a silly way of thinking. I live in a house that has literally NOTHING in or around it that tells people "how" it was built. I know how it was built, but there isn't anything to indicate that just kicking around waiting to be found by people. Generally speaking you don't leave all your shit laying around when you build stuff, because that would be both weird and wasteful. The tools and implements needed to build anything sufficiently advanced are themselves also advanced, and as such would be coveted by those who used them, not merely discarded and left to rot.
I'm an archaeologist and the sceptic guy isn't talking out of his ass, you usually find a lot of tools burried at archaeological sites, especially big ones
Respect to Joe here clearly standing up for Graham's none aggressive approach by pushing back for him when needed ,you can tell he has got Grahams back
'sticks up'? Micheal Shermer was extremely genial and polite and fully let his counterpart finish his part, in fact Graham interrupts him multiple times, Joe asked for a debate and already had a side he wanted to win, Randall asks reasonable questions in a polite way, if Graham needs to be 'Stuck up' for in such a cordial exchange, then very much his accent is doing more for him than his points
@cuth elar You must be another unimaginative archeologist like Shermer. If you listen closer to the argument you will hear that Graham makes point after point about Gobekli Tepe that makes actual sense. While Shermer consistently regurgitates the same worn out arguments. You can teach anyone to go out and dig up artifacts methodically and record it in their notes. Which is what most archeologists do along with attacking anyone that goes against the status quo. The only way science moves forward is because of the work of Mavericks in their fields of science like Einstein and an amateur archeologist names Schliemann. Schliemann was ridiculed by the archeological establishment until he actually found the mythological city of Troy. I swear the field of archeology is filled with dullards that just follow the crowd.
Graham was not only the aggressor but overly aggressive to the point of exposing his own biases and past injuries = Graham has clearly been hurt by either this guy and/or others that have argued against him and/or his ideas. Graham has clearly been 'professional hurt' in the past by the reactions of fellow scientists.
My ancestors were hunter gatherers just a few generations back and from what I know there was very little FREE time. As a 65 year old man who hunts, fishes and gathers from the land for fun, even with all the tech (jeep, gun with scope, boat and four wheeler), to feed, clothe and shelter a family of four would take a considerable amount of time from the day. If they were agricultural and the climate was as volatile as stated, then crop failures would not allow them enough food to support the workforce. Logic would dictate they did both and maybe had to adapt their methods as the climate varied.
You are not factoring in the elder members of those groups, they had more time to plan and discover how to do things like our society today. Full-time scientists are less than 1% of the population. Most inventions are made by a SINGLE MAN, then everybody else learns to use the invention. Get it. The Maya calenders, like all of them, were developed by the priests. They had time every night to sit there and watch the stars.
I was thinking the same thing. Hunting takes more time than going to store. You can’t just drink water unless it’s pure of bacteria. So they’d have to heat up the water. Fishing always takes time and patience;maybe they had a net.
You forget that not everyone was busy. The priests in Mayan society came up with their amazing calendar. It must have been the same at gobekli tepeh. Think about these days, scientists spend so much time on fusion and cern collider because the rest of us work to provide for all the basic needs of everyone.
boomer understanding of time in full display you're so far removed from your hunter gatherer ancestors that they wouldn't even recognize you as the same species, chill grandpa
@@youruncleted not so removed as you say... as a child we had no running water, outside toilet, wood stove, hunted and fished, gathered berries, gardened and the harsh winters were real special. I did not have a phone until my first day of college, even then I had no one to talk to anyway, lol. As for the name calling, I guess that just shows how insecure you are with your pampered existence.
Pseudohistory, claiming that an advanced civilisation would've consciously chosen not to use metal tools - that's just illogical. But Hancock makes money off of these theories
I am an Engineer that works with GIS and completed my doctorate in Megalithic Steucrures. I've been to Gobekli Tepe, Karan Tepe, several other Tepes in Turkey and several Tells in Syria and Lebanon (which are older that GT). The constant return to the cave paintings is extremely Euroscebtric....and there are his motives. Several academic papers have been written on the subject...the latest from the University of Istanbul in December 2022...Archeology is coming around.
Noah Headley That’s big Santa Randall Carlson-genius of a guy. Interesting his input into the debate pretty much crushed schermer so Schermer pretty much ignored it😂
At the very end when Shermer states that cave paintings are equally impressive to mega monolithic sites, is absurd. It highlights the exact struggle that Graham had been claiming existed this entire episode but that Shermer was denying existed. "Mainstream" science doesn't want to do science things, such as asking question to push their own boundaries and assumptions. I'm here 6 years later, its great that Graham and Randall have a huge following where they can highlight some of these insane mysteries that others seemingly were quick to gloss over.
Graham's story about the New Scientist magazine is pretty revealing of how his brain works. He made it sound very ironic and vindicating, but if you listen closely, all that's happened is he saw the cover story that was published and decided in his head that his book "essentially" said the same thing. "Civilization is older and more mysterious than we thought" is a pretty broad/generic idea and it wouldn't even necessarily be remarkable if Graham's critics published the same phrase that Graham had published without realizing it, but just to reiterate, they did not publish the same phrase because Graham never published that phrase, he just retroactively used the phrase to self-describe his book and declared himself a victory. Finally, Graham's book is not "essentially" about civilization being older and more mysterious. The essential message of his book, which is much more specific and is written in the TITLE AND SUBTITLE, is that a higher civilization influenced all other lesser civilizations that came after it.
@@garry_thomasalways people like you who slap “conspiracy” onto something to discredit it instead of being open minded to both sides. Anatomically modern humans have been around for nearly 200,000 years, it wouldn’t be a stretch to theorize that there have been “advanced” civilizations before that have been lost to time.
And after that, Michael and Graham went into the cage and Joe narrated the fight. Randall was the referee. Graham won by submission, Michael went to sleep from a choke, he couldn't even tap out in time.
someone that swears like that in a debate weakens their argument , it shows frustration . Having said that , main stream history , science and evolution is all lies .
Not a word from him about the Bosnian pyramids. They are being excavated and studied by scientists now the same as with Gobleki Tepi. Both sites studied at the same time. Now.
I grew up in PNG - when I was about 8 I cut my forearm falling on a rock. My Papuan friend ripped the skin of a citrus 🍊 fruit. Thumbnail sliced it into quarters. After the first 1/2 hour the first piece socked up all the wound fluid. The second was strapped using the spine of a fern like plant. The skin dried shrank and squeezed the wound without stitches also insects stay away from citric acid. Very smart and I respected my learning in another culture as a boy in the 60’s.
You're absolutely right about the fern. It was probably an actual fern or a relative of the fern. You can take a fern and leave the spine as you call it on and just remove the leaves. When you get done it will look like a skeleton. You can take a thick Leaf like an oak leaf or a hickory or a beach and bandage it over top of the cut and somehow someway, the spine of the fern will draw up the skin and close it together and hardly leaves the scar. It's never been done to me but I've seen it done. Interesting story dude
Next time you cut yourself, put the thin membrane between the layers of an onion on it before your bandage. It will heal in lightning speed. I had a Peruvian prep cook show me that years ago. Primitive medicine is incredibly effective
I'm so confused by Michael's argument or main point, it literally just sounds like he's just stirring shitpot of mainstream archaeology. It must be so frustrating to have a productive conversation in that field man 🙄
I thought that myself but after rewatching it for the 700th time I think he just wants some physical evidence, which actually makes sense. Although I’m with graham on this.
@@tadhgkeaveney4507 He wants trash and tools.. when the site hasn't even been near fully excavated. I don't lean to either side of their arguments, but that's pretty nonsensical.
Cyance lol what exactly do you consider to be “logical” this is peer review in action. i don’t mean to be rude, but this may be what he’s saying; people aren’t exposed to fair debate and critical thinking-‘real’ knowledge is given to you in school and that’s it. it’s a stunted way of thinking to only consider total factual stuff limiting yourself and the convo. it almost stopped at the point they realized he dug his heels in almost for the sake of being a skeptic. i agree with you however in that this wasn’t that great especially the full version watch the clip or full one with SCHOCH and rogan. good luck and have a nice day.
Nick Nack i said in action. he’s a phd working out a scenario, a theory of course it’s not factual or guaranteed, a lot of science isn’t. it is however, important we DISCUSS things and not LIMIT ourselves.
@Nick Nack searches for entirely new ways of understanding and exporing unknown topics is helped by outside the box thinking. Just limiting any possible assumption to those already existing until you have overwhelming evidence otherwise is going to limit your potential for learning. Plenty of historians, archeologists included, get stuck trying to make any new evidence fit into existing concepts and theories and limit their ability to expand universal knowledge by staying within those limiting mental parameters. Guys like Einstein were famous for thought experiments that created new ideas and then seeking evidence to support them, rather than just looking at existing facts and analyzing g them from the standard viewpoint. My general point is it doesn't even matter if Graham is right or wrong, his proposals and ideas are worthwhile in the general pursuit of universal knowledge. Failed scientific theories still advance knowledge, and can often inspire new ways of thinking about other problems.
It's so interesting that you have no choice but to learn something from this. If we can't have a discussion like this and debate about any subject, we shouldn't sit at the same table.
Interesting watching this 6 years later where archeologists uncovered residential communities & businesses stretching across the land finding decorative beads, tools, etc within those 'communities'... I get Michael's thought process because I once was stubborn as well (still am but catching myself). At the end of the day we should never conclude on anything until everyone agrees on the answer. There's so much we don't understand and still uncovering that we won't answer in our lifetime. If anything we are still pioneers
Dude keeps on asking what they mean by "advanced" and they keep saying the construction was big, and intricately carved, but no one seems to drive home the addtional idea of the complex math involved
I wouldn't say that complex math is required. I've been in construction for 20 years and a relatively dumb guy with experience can build well and simple things like straight lines and plumb walls are easy to do. It's possible to create this place with moderate knowledge only a few generations after first attempting rock carving and building with stone. It's clearly more special than just a house of stone, so those people had this knowledge for some time.
Hunter gatherers have to move about so that they do not over hunt an area and run out of food. They do not hunt one area long enough to carve 20ft long slabs out of stone, then carve faces and animals out of the stone in 3D, then move that stone and place it in a fashion that points to magnetic polar earth positions or astrological positions in the sky. Aboriginals were hunter gatherers when the English came here to Australia. They do not have megalithic sites. They did not do carvings into or out of stone. There are no pyramids in Australia. There are no astrological cave paintings. Nothing indicating knowledge of north or other compass direction. Nothing indicating knowledge of earths circumferance or longtitude/latitude position.
Not to mention that hunter gatherers would not have had time to both Hunt and build this shit all at the same time. Someone clearly had to be feeding the laborers that were building this place. There is no way that they would be able to hunt and gather enough food to feed a workforce of this size. That’s not really how it works. When you hunt and gather you are mainly hunting and gathering to support you and your family for the next day or two. You’re not going to be able to kill and or gather and or prepare enough to feed more than that at a time on a daily basis. This means they must of had a surplus of food which means they had agriculture.
You're actually wrong about Aboriginals, they were excellent and I mean excellent trackers and part of the reason was because they had a very good knowledge of what was North, South, East and West. There's actually an Aboriginal language that doesn't have the words 'left' or 'right' in it instead they use West and East, your 'west' hand and your 'east' hand, and it would chance depending on whether your hand really was facing East or West and it's thought their language developed this way just so they would have such a good knowledge of direction and again is part of what made them some of the best trackers in the world. How do we know they were such good trackers? Englishmen would use them to track escaped Aboriginals and they were very impressed by them.
Its a mistake to compare Australian aboriginals to other hunter gatherer societies. The Egyptians of the old kingdom were capable of far greater things than other societies of the same time for example. It is also a mistake to assume that a hunter gatherer society cannot produce a sustainable food surplus. it's possible that these primitives had methods of gathering food that far surpassed societies of the time, just like old kingdom construction engineering was peerless in their era. Further study is needed or you're just making assumptions.
Definitely. But we do have proof all over this planet, the Sphinx, Gobekli, all the citys and stone works along the coastlines under water off of many countries. Etc.....
@@RenR70 I agree 100% pretty much proven beyond a doubt that the Sphinx is 12,000 years old minimal. The early dynastic Egyptians said in their writings that they where a legacy of a early civilization ( zepteppy) . The plausibility of Atlantis. So if we have been around for 200,000 to 300,000 years as modern homo sapiens how many times have we climb to a advanced (more or less then today) civilization and wiped out by, comet/ meteor, plague, nuclear/weapons of mass destruction , etc.... and started over again. Not much is going to last for 20, 30, 40 100 Thousand years except stone.
If Shermer is correct, we are to believe that a group of hunter/gatherers stopped roaming while looking for food, and built one of the most impressive stone structures ever constructed. The length of the project and the number of people it would have taken to build such a structure would have required them to settle in one place. This would require them to farm and build dwellings to remain at the site and build the structure. I also don’t think that hunter/gatherer groups traveled in enormous groups of people. It is obvious that if primitive people built this with primitive tools it would have required lots of people to do it. For me, all points to advanced civilization.
Doesn't mean all the hunter-gatherers had to stop hunting and gathering, just that they supported some sort of artist caste who worked on the site day in day out, and ate what was given to them.
@@DonRicoKing I think that's the point. We can't find the evidence that archeologists want, except for the structures themselves. No one can explain how it was done, which in a sense is enough evidence to question the "mainstream" theories. GT is a new discovery which massively questions previous assumption/schools of thought. There is literally no hard evidence to suggest the ancient Egyptians built the great pyramids, yet everyone has been told therefore thinks they did. It opens up a whole load of questions that may contradict the establishment of archeology who have made their livelihoods on previous schools of thoughts, which is what we are all taught growing up. Sometimes the lack of evidence is all the evidence one may need
@@dp3699 "We can't find the evidence that archeologists want" that is what annoys me. You re suggesting that there is a mafia consisting of Archeologists. But that is not true at all. Archeologists are always extremely thrilled, then somebody makes a new discovery.
@@dp3699 "No one can explain how it was done, which in a sense is enough evidence to question the "mainstream" theories. GT is a new discovery which massively questions previous assumption/schools of thought. There is literally no hard evidence to suggest the ancient Egyptians built the great pyramids, yet everyone has been told therefore thinks they did." That is not right at all. There are mathematical and chemical methods to calculate when the building of the pyrmaids startet and ended. How they were build is a different story. It is true, nowadays there is no final theory on how they were build. There are different theories based on experiments and findings at the pyramids. There are also scientific scrolls. But with time the picture is getting clearer. For example some scientist found, that there was a now dried out waterway, which they use to transport the stones to the building site.
They have since discovered that the whole area may have been the biggest metropolitan area ever on Earth. There are several sites that are basically all connected,including houses. It’s basically a metropolitan area that appears to be several hundred miles
If you look at NYC and Afghanistan, you’d wouldn’t think they’d be in the same world, let alone the same year in 2021. Whatever was there 12,000 years ago, lived like that and given the environment and the way the world has changed it has preserved everything the way it is. Certain parts of the world lived what seemed like different time frames. Not sure if that makes sense
@@kshelley121 You don’t even need to think about Afghanistan. There are currently many tribes in South America, Africa, Indian Ocean etc. who live way more primitively than the peoples of Göbekli Tepe.
We have civilizations today that still live like hunter gatherers. Why couldnt there be different peoples at different levels of development in the past?
Ignore the comments, I know what u mean,. Totally Agree In 1950's, men were the professional, made the money, to support family. Women got married, stayed home and had babies....except one that went to Harvard, then Cornell Law, and then to be Supreme court Justice. There are always outliers.
@Nick Nack Technically there are "civilization" living today with Hunter gather culture. Civilization is just a way to describe man made environment, there are plenty of Amazon tribes and island locked civilization that don't have modern cultures.
Great point. If one were to only find proof of European civilization dating back to the Medieval period, alien archaeologists would assume humanity was an awful lot stupider than they would if they were to discover an Arabian or Asian civilization dating to that time lol
@ " In this broad sense, a civilization contrasts with non-centralized tribal societies, including the cultures of nomadic pastoralists, Neolithic societies or hunter-gatherers, but sometimes it also contrasts with the cultures found within civilizations themselves. "
While Michael Schermer raises some decent points, his general closed-mindedness on this topic amazes me, especially when he says a cave painting is more impressive/challenging than the largest megalithic structure known to mankind today.
@Nick Nack the organization of the workforce, education system and the technology to feed and house large number of workers on site transport materials knowledge of astrology ect, ect... To build this, is ridiculous to compare with cave drawings with a sloppy 3d effect.
@Nick Nack I don't know about Hancock or his ancient high civilisation claims. But what I know is the comparison between the skills and cognitive abilities needed to fingerpaint an animal on the wall of a cave (very sloppily) and the skills and knowledge required to train, feed, house thousands of workers to build an enormous temple, moving 30 foot rocks in the process, is laughable.
@Nick Nack I saw the video of the site where they show what they have excavated up to now, and how it's only 5% of all the site. The enormous sculpted columns, with engraved 3d depictions of their 10 Gods. This was a bit more complex and sofisticated than what hunter gatherers were known to be able to do to say the least. And far more impressive than the lascaux drawings, and I'm French and I have visited the lascaux caves.
@Nick Nack I have a feeling, like the other guy in the video, that you have no understanding of how collosal construction work is done and what is needed in terms of organisation to pull it off. I also have a feeling that you are not genuine, and you have an agenda. It boggles the mind to see someone argue that a 3d carving of a feline on a 30 foot man made column for example, is at the same level of complexity than the lascaux drawings. It's beyond ridiculous. It's like comparing the iPhone with Morse code transmitters. And then you try to save face by going with "it's artistically on the same level". Well that my friend is subjective, and is not the topic of the matter. You just have no arguments, and you try to make an impossible case to try to refute or dismiss massive new evidence that doesn't fit your agenda (it seems).
'Where are the metal tools?" Interesting question. At the "building of King Solomon's Temple," it is said in the Entered Apprentice degree, "there was not heard the sound of an axe, hammer, or any tool of iron."
Hancock is mostly a money man..He seems to have started out as a more genuine archeologist type, but flew into the americanized world of trendism. They create and analyze trends and then comes the DVDs.... Dollars. This is why we see that blend of postmodernism or a kind of neo-theosophy with more genuine interest in the ancient past. This is very bad because one ruins a whole subject this way.
Gobekli Tepe is quite a bit more advanced than the primitive cave paintings of Italy. Hard to imagine a bunch of nomadic hunter-gatherers suddenly learned advanced rock quarrying and sculpting techniques at such an early date. But it seems humanity has had pockets of more high-minded peoples going back 10s if not 100s of thousands of years. I think that wherever the Sumerians suddenly and inexplicably inherited their advanced civilization from, there is probably some link with Gobekli Tepe and other such yet-to-be-discovered sites in that part of the world.
@@harveyblevins74 I have a personal theory that certain sites of dense and consistent resources would sometimes bring multiple smaller hunter gatherer populations together, and I think a result of that established regional conglomeration was those multiple cultures coming together to build certain small cultural hubs to share those resources. I mean from what we assume hunter gathers would fight each other over pockets of land like this, but what if that wasn’t always the case, and some realized that if there was enough to go around everyone could benefit from it? Over time as the cultures would become more and more homogeneous, the sight would gain greater and greater cultural significance and grow larger, and as it grew larger more and more people would spend time around it leading to people spending time around large amounts of natural resources in turn to possible leading advancements in agriculture as population density would inevitably rise. I think this site in particular was a early-mid stage of this scenario happening
Why do all these skeptics always think that builders are going to spend probably their entire life building one of the most significant structures ever made on the planet and then just leave their shit scattered around everywhere like they’re not gonna clean up when they’re done.
What that other guy said, it's because when you look through a lot of big structures you find little bits here and there. A broken handle, or some guy dropped his old junky chisel down a hole and didn't want to climb in to get it back, or they find a stone hammer split into 10 pieces that they can piece back together and get a reliable idea of what it was, etc. It might be that these people simply didn't do it that way, but that would be kinda unusual.
@@davidj8321 and history also constantly changes. History also tells us that we were loin cloth cave dwellers until like 5k years ago and started building gigantic near impossible structures and then got worse at it as we went.
Gopelki tepe:- a site where Noah alias Murugan regenerated animals from the dna which he took in this boat before Noah floods. Noah did not carry physical animals but DNA. T pillar contains box animals figure and dna structure.
I want joe to get back to these kinds of talks
same!
W3rd
I’d be cool if he had graham on once a month I’d be happy
I want the JRE to be live on CZcams again...
Shermer is a good skeptic, but I'll doubt how much he has overviews over all geological data of history, paleontology and archeology related... go to the Randall Carlson podcast... I mean the Göbekli tepe ok.. But there WAS a lower sea level before during the ice age. There WAS a sudden major change due to natural disasters ending the ice age AND killing off loads of big animals. The sea levels around Azores WAS lower , quite much. Atlantis myth is from Platon about the islands west of Gibraltar. Well, avoid strawmen. We are not talking advanced. Like it means today. But culture. The problem with some of the crypto archeologists is often that they mix up with postmodernist stuff exaggerating how advanced ancient societies were. THAT pushes off the mainstream. However the mainstream even denies the younger dryas catastrophe and the end of the ice age ending suddenly...
This was the intellectual equivalent of a back alley knife fight.
Hahahahahahaa
hahahaha
And joe was eating popcorn from his balcony. Just watching
@@thenlnlkn He'd be snorting weeds
Its Only 1 intellectual in that room. The guy with glasses. The other one is full of Shitt.
I was on a construction crew in 2016 at a old sears building from 1924. Concrete takes a 100 years to cure and concrete is weak and brittle compared to granite. I had to drill out 3)4 inch holes in this 100 year old concrete. It literally took forever and i used many hammer drill bits. The idea of drilling out 6 inch hows on granite!! If you don't have diamonds on the bit you will be there forever! The only people who can appreciate this Ancient work and the true integrity of granite are those who have dealt with and worked with hard stone. People who've never done construction will never be able to understand, period.
A lot of the granite they used was poured in place.
I think it's mainly our modern day perspective that kind of blurs the lines of possibility. There are findings of stone age jewelry that are so meticulously crafted it's hard to believe people were spending a couple hours per day for months if not years to create just a single piece of jewelry. But it might be very well possible that after survival they would dedicate all of their remaining resources to find meaning in something - be it in a believe, in trinkets, astronomy etc.
@@h.hickenanaduk8622 What would hold the molten granite for a mold? And all blocks look different in some way not nearly the same
The "Solar Death Ray" on YT with Fresnel glass melting rock into obsidian - is very interesting in regard more to Mayan obsidian polished steps in their amazing wall structures (could they have done similar with multiple polished gold parabolic mirrors?). Also the drilling core spiral score declinations measured in ancient Egypt are not achievable with modern diamond tipped core drilling equipment....clearly there's a number of technologies that were available that have since been lost. Including the movement over extensive terrain and lifting and accurate placement of 50 ton stones to cosmic alignments.... Galactic level Master Craftsman at work!
@@wildcountry. Or we just lack an understanding how they did it with simple tools. Here's a video how one person can move and lift a 20 ton block czcams.com/video/E5pZ7uR6v8c/video.html
Most blocks used in pyramids are close to around 2 tons. A lot of things are possible because our minds are so good to come up with solutions.
"Maybe sometimes your skin is so thick you can't sense anything around you" is one of the best Hancock insults ever.
I want to double click on your statement. Bless quote is right!
What’s Hancock Insult???🤔🤷🏿♂️
@@Stobadd93 8.36
😂😂😂🔥🔥🔥🔥
Well this 5 years later becames you Daily fight
Joe should use some of that spotify money and excavate the rest of Gobekli Tepe lol
its in turkey near the syrian border, I don't think that would be a good idea or investment.
The area is well protected from invasions. Half of Turkey's army is there.
@@thexneo3528 very true with airplanes constantly on combat air patrol
@@mawortz why not? Sure there’s a war there but there’s A lot Turkish soldiers there protecting the border
That would take the JRE to the next level
Randall Carlson is a true G for patiently waiting to speak his piece
Didn’t even realize he was there until he spoke 😂
Fr
I often wonder if guys like Carlson actually believe their own grift or it it doesn't matter at all as long as people buy the books and invite them to speak.
Read this comment seconds before he spoke 😂
@@tpxchallenger maybe it's like a clinical narcissism thing, where they have an emotional need to believe they're important.
What's impressive is joe can insert himself into conversations and be as just as believable as experts
Con-man
it’s called Intellectual fraud!!!! you idiot
@@realsamhyde triggered man.
Because these guys are not experts, they are writers
@@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677 hey stupid fuck. did you know NOT one of these experts has ever been on any sites , they got their degrees by reading a book. graham physically and went scuba diving in deep oceans. he can verify what others wrote about. tell me who the fuck the expert , you uneducated moron.
One thing that strikes me: If only 1/20th of the already-astonishing and game changing Göbekli Tepe site has been excavated, how is it that every archaeologist in the world isn't walking around door-to-door collecting donations like the old _March of Dimes_ to fund the rest?
Randall Carlson was impressively neutral throughout the first 18 minutes of the video. In fact, I didn't even know he was there.
Lol I had no idea a third guest was there until he spoke
Randalf the Grey speaks only when necessary. No more.
@@sirloin7633 one of the best comments ive read all week! and it's thursday already
Randalf came with the eagles when he chimed in
Hi, I would love to get your opinions on the topics I cover on my channel! I am new and would love to get more subs and exposure! Thanks QEC
Dude with the beard and blue shirt came outta nowhere lmao
lol You have to watch the whole podcast. That's Randall Carlson, he's the most intelligent/level headed among them. He's also a berserker. He has a big info dump at one point in it too, takes everyone to school.
Randall was takin a big ol shit.
This made me really laugh 😂😂
18;20 i laughed so hard when he just popped out of nowhere, lol talk about third wheeling
The smart ones are always listening to others and talk when they've formed some strong arguments
Comparing a cave painting and the largest megalithic site ever discovered and saying “eh basically the same” is absolutely insane.
He basically says cave paintings are are more interesting and the same thing to make the pyramids or Göbekli Tepe. Just no anyone can walk into a cave and do what they painted right now but no one can make the Göbekli Tepe or the pyramids the way they did back then with no modern technology helping them. what a stupid thing to say and he is more educated then we are on this topic just shows educated people can still be stupid at times.
It's like saying because you can build a log cabin and in a few years you can build the Hoover Damn
He’s referring to abstract thinking and those cave paintings he’s talking about are 40 50,000 years old compared to something that was built 30,000 years later
I love when David makes a perfect example of what Graham is saying, in an attempt to refute it. . It is 100% a great explanation for how these two key technologies came about simultaneously in one generation.
'academia' is toast these days - 'copper chisels' ????....... 'pounding stones' ????....... 'tombs'????.......... nobody is buying this nonsense anymore
Michael started by saying there is "no evidence to your claim so it is not true" then goes "There is no evidence so my claim is true". rules for thee but not for me
The key is underwater archeology. The shoreline for most of humanity used to be100 meters lower due to the ice age.
You‘ve got a point. Also maybe there is stuff buried in the Saharan Desert. Also the Nile and Tigris/Euphrat changed a lot during the millennia.
Ok Sir
Good point
I agree. 👍👍
Yup
If it was deliberately buried wouldnt it make sense they took their stuff with them and didn’t bury those
What's the matter with you using common sense like that? Don't you know the world revolves around scientists they should have been honored to leave behind their precious tools for scientists 10,000 year later.
"Deliberately buried" doesn't mean it was the people who built it who buried it... It really creates more questions then answers unfortunately...
I thought this too. If it was meant to be hidden, proof of inhabitants would be taken too.
@@dudelikeseriously8418 Who says it was meant to be hidden? Like the guy above you says we don’t know who buried it. It could’ve been another people who came long after the creators. Could be beefing tribes, tribes who didn’t worship those gods who couldn’t destroy it because of how large and advanced it was tried to bury it... Also as someone who uses tools everyday I’m very meticulous about cleaning up & making sure all my tools are accounted for, and my tools are no where near as valuable as theirs. I can go to any Home Depot to grab drills or tons of wrenches, they were building their own tools which took time and more precious. Why would they leave them behind unless they died with them which is usually how ancient tools are found.
Stop! No making sense, shut up you!
"Why didn't they leave tools behind when they intentionally buried this structure?" My dude, tools are valuable especially in ancient times
the metal tools all just rusted away....stone stays around.
stupid question. seriously seriously stupid. why the fuck would they leave them?
Exactly, lol. Who throws tools away, willy nilly? 😂
Why leave tools when they are valuable.. tools are keep in a safe place to use
We find tools in ancient archeological sites all of the time. Tools get lost, thrown away, forgotten about, etc. You’d expect a hyper-advanced civilization to leave something behind beyond structures that have more reasonable explanations behind their construction
This is one of the main reasons I love JRE. He has skeptics on so they don’t create an echo chamber
The skeptic in this vid could not have been much worse about trying to argue against the main points of lost civilization though. He honestly strengthens what he's trying to argue against more than anything else.
Legend has it that to this day, Joe is still trying to establish that *humans* built it.
Joe rogan is Gobeklitepe
Tobeckli gepe is jogen roe
@@legitimate_opposition2002 yis
Let’s make this clear we know humans made this
No one's arguing about that. We know humans built it. Who else would have built it? Cattle?
18 minutes in a new challenger suddenly emerges
boss tacos
Hancock has Carlson as his wingman, in the flesh whereas Shermer has to phone a friend via FaceTime who is then also a dumbass.
Bro I got scared when that guy jumped in to convo. Did he just from bathroom or wha
@@yavuzkeles320 He actually was not there. But then a Mandela effect kicked in...
Not challenger, rogan, Hancock and the blue shirt are all on the same side against that dumb Shermer betamale
Grey Troll lmao
"Where are the tools?" Did the people who built your house leave the circular saws and nailguns there when they left?
Yes they did, nails, wood off cuts, pieces of plasterboard, wall plugs, packaging from wall sockets etc. 10 years in working in construction you see it a lot.
@@samueljohnston1043and after 10,000 years, would those nails and plasterboard still be there?
@@DoubleGBros dunno it's possible tho
Even if hypothetically you can’t find the tools, we have the structure.
They must have been built somehow. The tools existed. Whether they are destroyed or we just can’t pinpoint their location is irrelevant. We know they existed.
What kind of strawman argument is that?
Cave paintings to moving megastructures is “not much of a leap” ?
It could take months to move a single stone and it would take days to paint..
Absolutely a masterclass by Randall and Graham in critical thinking.. I look forward to the Graham and mainstream dude that are going to debate on Joes show in late august 👍
He's not talking about the physical acts to do so. He's referring to the intellect to do so.
What do you mean “critical thinking”? Believing in something that has no basis in evidence is the antithesis of critical thinking.
Simply questioning academia is not critical thinking. Please question mainstream scientific theories, and work towards proving the theory; that is how science works.
Coming up with your own theories that have no basis in scientific evidence is story-telling, not science. Hancock keeps saying he’s not a archeologist, yet wants to be accepted as an expert by the archeological community. You can’t have you cake and eat it too.
@@CaptnCanada85You don’t work to prove the mainstream idea retard
a few years back my brother and i were driving through a state park and at one point we came across an old pickup off the side of the road completely rusted through with trees growing through it. nature can swallow of traces of civilization in decades, so just imagine what 10k years can do.
Agreed. Also the search for trash and tools
Which tools and trash are you exactly looking for this is long before the invention of plastic which trash are we expecting to find?
Tools from which material exactly that we can expect to still be found ?
Exactly why I argue that most scientist (people with degrees) are mostly mrons. Most of them, having an experience working with more than a few, don't want to see what happens in front of there eyes if it challenges their own dogma, and they do amazing mental gymnastics to justifies their own believes.
@@ivandelac764 you're an idiot friendo
@@ivandelac764 lol do you have the same degree or are you a book warrior with out a degree but you believe your smart you need the schooling to know what the hell you’re talking about or why have the degree
@@ivandelac764 true books are nothing compared to doing actual work. Also computer work too
As a Turk, it is really funny to hear “hill with a belly”(göbekli tepe) a billion times.
Well, thank you for the language lesson there....I am now going to laugh when I hear people say it, too lol
@Jurassic Monkey Well im not an expert about the subject but our ancestors came to Anatolia around 1000 years ago. On the other hand Joe and his guests are talking about 11000 years ago. There is a huge time gap but, i heard from somewhere in the past that locals were considering the mountain top already a sacred place before the discovery. Ofcourse it's a rumor but thats what i heard. God maybe i heard it from this video can't remember, it has been 3 years since i watched it. :)
@Jurassic Monkey I saw some similarity of signs in göbekli tepe with aborigins in australia
@Jurassic Monkey oh I don't know which group it is.
anotolia is vast so many civilizations in one area
This was one of the best scientific debates on ancient megalithic building I have witnessed, never expected it to be on JRE.
Scientific😂 he thinks aliens remade civilisation 😂😂
This was not a scientific debate by any stretch of imagination.
@@ahronthegreat oh u didnt even watch it but u waste time to comment shit on him...a credible person you seem for sure.
@@dihatzhs 🤣 2 secs out of my day xo 😘
@@ahronthegreatsay what you want about Joe, i’m confident he could at least spell the word “civilization”. cant say the same for you 😭😭
I super miss this Joe. I remember watching this after work years ago while cooking dinner and then waiting to finish watching it before eating. I still remember that night. Now I often find its a lot of anger from either Joe or guests or something way too focuses on a minute detail of society (i.e. so called culture wars).
I can’t believe my guy in the blue was able to hold his tongue for 18 minutes
So you found the first LEGO blocks ok
Yo was I the only one tripping on where he came from💀😂
His name is Randall Carlson. Very interesting guy. He doesn’t step in as archaeology isnt his profession. He’s a geologist. Listen to his podcast with Joe rogan 1v1 - you won’t regret it!
I was like one what’s he doing there. Is this clip a merger?
LMAO I read this and thought you were referring the main guy and was reading comments when suddenly Randal: “IT SEEMS TO ME...”
Lol I go holy shit! Where do you come from?!
Joe rogan “so we agree they are human”.
LOL!!!
I am still holding on to the theory that the whales built Stonehenge
@@marksmith4346 *mind blown*
Bruh🤣🤣🤣
@@marksmith4346 i think the biker mice could have built it.
I have no clue how I’ve missed this podcast for so long. I’ve been glued since. Thank you for bringing the coolest topics ever. As a closet history fanatic this debate is amazing. Well done, very well done. New fan here 💪🏾👍🏾💪🏾👍🏾
Shermer: "We can't find pieces of broken pottery or discarded tools, so there is nothing to see here".
Hancock: "Did you happen to notice the monumental megalithic construction, by any chance ?"
You missed the point. The great pyramid is so large, it doesn't get deposited in earth layers that are buried. Pottery would. The point is the age.
That's it in a nutshell OP
@@Prometheus4096 What if they didn't make pottery? What if they carved wooden bowls or had naturally occurring vessels? Also, didn't they say it was purposefully buried, implying the people left, and, on top of that, that they've uncovered only ~2% of the structures?
The lack of pottery at this stage isn't ruling anything out, imo.
@@youtubeisassho8834 No.
@@Prometheus4096 Look up pre-potterry Neolithic period which this falls under. It's basically stone age, which destroys that entire pottery argument.
I'm in turkey now I will go and find the answers stand by folks
Update 2023
people keep asking for updates i only encountered cannibal chickens my mission ended there. My conclusion Turkey is a land of ancient structures and cannibal chickens go check it out 👽
And!?
@CANADIAN REBEL I only found cannibal chickens sorry I let you guys down I'm a bad agent of truth
@CANADIAN REBEL 👽👍
What if..hear me out....since there wasnt much to do in ancient times besides not dying...what if....they did it out of boredom
@@jkee9760 exactly what i was thinking
If they buried gobekli tepe on purpose then i imagine they would take all their tools and pottery out
If you took upon yourself the immense effort required to bury this entire, massive site, would you overlook the details?
That is possible, but the site isn't completely uncovered yet, so can it be stated that their were no tools or pottery?
here's an idea: people built the site. Conditions changed- climate, drought, famine, maybe war, something- and the people who built it were gone. New people moved in and started farming. They found the old stone 'gods' on the hill unnerving. It's like living next to somebody's graveyard. They didn't dare destroy it and risk the wrath of these unknown gods, so they buried it so they wouldn't have to look at it.
Holla...
@Nick Nack but regardless of the construction process they carved stones and built a massive site and lived in that area for that long, with a population big enough to build those structures, and you think they wouldn't have been able to make pottery? Nothing else but stone would survive for 12000 years.
Graham sounds more educated, well thought and well spoken than Michael Shermer and Graham is not a trained scientist. Meanwhile Michael Shermer seems to be trying very hard to dismiss Graham's theories with weak arguments and he was fighting a losing battle.
Almost like it’s a silly way to communicate what is true. Debates are fun, but judging what is true just because someone is more well spoken seems silly to me.
@@bisk1407 Debates are worse than that. There are various tactics that can be used, by a skilled and aggressive debater, to make your opponent appear weak or wrong or to force them into a corner which the audience may not see happening right before them.
Debates are more akin to salesmanship than discussion.
I would like to recommend Miniminutemen, a channel here on CZcams that made a multi part series discussing every point and episode Hancock made in his Netflix show and explains and debunks all of them. I was intrigued by Grahams points but watching Miniminutemen really put it in perspective how ridiculous some of his claims are.
@@kristofferlodesjo5781- "Miniminutemen"? Are you seriously recommending that garbage channel? Why not some low IQ TikTok influencer then, or some trash cable television channel like the History Channel, or The Learning Channel (TLC)? I'm just asking.
@@kristofferlodesjo5781 Miniminutemen did a very good job on some points, but i felt they, like this michael guy missed the point of some of grahams statement. Ultimatley, we know have buildings from atleast 9,000 bc. Miniminute men seemed to give very crap explanations on that point. Either Hunter Gatherer somehow how the extra man power to be able to have astronomers, and skilled labourers. which is unlikely considering evidence of agriculture was in mesopetamia atleast 13,000 years ago. Or there was a civilisation before the sumerians. in which case Graham would be off by a couple thousand years but still would be ultimatly right about a lost civilisation.
Hey Graham...I'm 82 and a grandma and l started reading the Emmanuel Velikofksy books when I was 15. People laugh, but what's so fearful to skeptics about thinking outside the box? It's the "outside the box thinkers people" who have moved civilization forward while the skeptics have worked hard to stone, behead, imprison and burn at the stake the people who have looked at the ocean and said what's over there or looked at the heavens and said those specks of light are trillions of galaxies. I was a Physiotherapist for 43 years of my life and just getting people to think about new techniques was painful. To my way of thinking skeptics are bull headed because they lack imagination. The gentleman skeptic on this Joe Rogan program has the same hardened flat affect look on his face as 30 years or so ago. Keep searching Graham even if we never learn who carved and moved the Easter Island wonders or raised megalithic stones to the tops of mountains!!! ❤
Dang, Randall just popped out of nowhere like, “Y’all thought I was gonna miss this?”
Bro seriously just appeared like nothing hahaha
I know I was like 🤩🤩
Yo really tho I almost thought the video switched
@@coreyhansen9711 exactly that I thought too lol
Attention Work Crew:
This site is to be buried with reverence, and your tools are incredibly valuable.
Please remove all tools from the work site at the end of your shift.
Failure to do so will result in termination, and may enrage the gods.
Thank you for your cooperation.
- The Management
@Nick Nack I think you missed the joke
@Nick Nack Well, either way, it amounts to the same thing. The more we learn, the more questions we have to ask. It would be fantastic to excavate the entire site and learn more about our history.
"I'm getting sick of these menial construction works. I might move to Atlantis."
-9000BCE HUMAN
Fact , we know when it was barried. That's the only fact . It could have been built the week before, the year before 10, 000 years before. Ant think 9n the Actual age the site was built is all just opinion.
@Nick Nack maybe it's just me, but the comment you responded to seemed to me only showing that the oft-repeated dating info only establishes a lower boundary on the age of the site.
It's amazing watching these men discuss this topic, I'm glad they were all able to have an intelligent discussion from different angles, I enjoyed every view point, it's weird when you're just listening and not trying to see who is wrong and who is right.
that is why we 2 have ears and 1 mouth and even if you can't see eye to eye there should be no animosity about discussions
I've seen this episode in full a few times and always catch myself on the clips. Every episode with Randal and Graham is worth watching. I would and do recommend it.
I miss when JRE was on CZcams! Those were the golden years!!
When Hancock let's fly the f-bomb, you know he's real frustrated.
@Stan Armenyan the guy was being an asshole on purpose. No one likes THAT guy
@Stan Armenyan only an idiot would believe he lost the argument. I bet you believe property tax is a benevolent process. The type to kill if told by the "law". Since you are stupid I'm insulting you.
@@Runescape99 being against authority doesn't make you right.
@@gretzkey66 according to history it does. But that requires thought and this is CZcams go back to feeling safe.
@@Runescape99 What? You're so black and white its not even funny.
During the conversation, they talk about the possibility that the builders of Gobeklitepe were hunter-gatherers and then that they were agrarians, but there is an important and overlooked space between the two, which is sedentary Neolithic cultures. These are people who settled in an area around an abundant, naturally occurring food source. In the case of Gobeklitepe, that food source was the ancient Einkorn wheat that is native to the slopes and valleys of the nearby mountains. Geneticist Spencer Wells said that all of the 17 varieties of wheat cultivated globally are genetically linked to this original native wheat. So people settled around it, ate it, drank beer made from it, watched it grow, learned to cultivate and all the while, they were adapting to the new concept of settlement. One of the first problems that arise when people begin to settle is waste management. Waste is a problem because it attracts pests, disease, and animals and eventually large predators that can be threatening to the vulnerable members of the colony. There is no evidence of habitation at Gobeklitepe because it was probably situated remotely from the dwellings. There is evidence of the site being in use for at least 2,000 to 3,000 years. Imagine how many people would have been born and died during that period of time. So what did they do with the dead? I think the stone circles were used for sky burials, which is a method of internment still used today in Tibet. The surrounding landscape was not very well suited for in the ground burials. Shallow graves were dangerous because they could be excavated easily by animals and the animals would cultivate an appetite for human flesh and would cause them to prey on the local population. I suppose cremation could have been an option, but it could be challenging in that environment to gather enough wood to fuel fires intense enough to cremate. Vultures do not and would not adapt to preying on humans. It makes a lot of sense to place the human remains in a stone circle with raised walls that were only open to the sky so that vultures and other birds could clean the bones, which can then be gathered and stored or buried by the surviving family members. There is evidence of both small t shaped pillars and bone burial under the plaster floors of domestic dwellings in nearby Catalhoyuk, one of the earliest known housing structures. Over time, as ritual sky burial use declined, people could have, simply out of habit or because it was the right thing to do in this place, used it as a landfill. It could have also been a place where people throw something in for good luck, like a penny in a fountain or when people rub the nose of a statue or something like that. My feeling is that the best place to look for clues of why these structures are there and what they were used for, is human nature. The habits, instincts, fears and desires that are naturally and deeply a part of all of us. The better we understand our own nature, the more we will unravel these kinds of mysteries.
Well thought out. I read it all:)
This is great man thank you I enjoyed reading.
As everyone else is saying great comment man. It was a great read.
Really good info and read 🙏
Appreciate your theories and different and rational points of view.
One of my personal theories about ancient civilizations is the reformability of metal. I suspect that people all throughout history would find metal from some older civilization and melt it down and reuse it because it is easier to reform an old metal tool than it is to excavate new metal. Clay pottery as well can be reused, just smash the pots to dust and let them sit in water for a few months and you have fresh clay. Even if it took a couple years, it would still be a huge source of reusable clay to have a pit somewhere soaking old clay objects. Also, things like wood and leather, they can be taken to make new things, and wood can always be burned. So I think that they could have easily had all these things, but in the eons since many people have come in and picked apart the reusable materials until there is nothing left.
Incredible point, as weird as it may sound primitive technology on youtube(the channel) always talks about reusing old pottery to either reinforce bad clay or as a way to just have more potting clay and credits many many ancient techniques from all over the world and it wouldn't be a stretch to say the same for another reusable material that's difficult to find
That's a good point, and we know that has certainly happened to some extent over the ages. One example that comes to mind: there used to be a lot of iron on the Coliseum in Rome, but it was stripped off and made into weapons during times when Rome was under siege, and they never bothered to put it back on again. Throughout most of known history, the norm has been to repair something rather than throw it away. Only now have our manufacturing processes gotten efficient enough that it makes sense to create something new rather than repair something old.
Wow. Yah that’s a great point I didn’t even think of. U could be on to something there!
I notice that Scientist do not talk about the culture that must have existed to create this site. Notice the carvings are not into the rock but are actually carved from the rock. This requires a higher level of artistry. In order to have these artists you need a support system. Using the model developed to estimate native American tribes prior to the Europeans coming into their lands, we know for each warrior it took 11 other Indians to support that one warrior. Now to support one artisan, you would need 11 people. People planting and growing food, people building houses, people making clothes, people making tools, religious leaders. This shows a large and well-organized society.
JRE at its prime. Interesting topics from not very well known people who have nothing but facts and very colorful opinions about things that actually matter
The manner to which they all spoke and were able to listen and politely disagree with each other was so refreshing to see!
I very much like Graham, but I can’t help but notice his malice towards sherbet, whilst shermer does not show that same feeling. I think Graham had gotten a little too worked up in certain moments but I guess when you are THAT passionate, it would make sense for someone to want to defend the subject so vigorously.
I think these people are very well known in they respective expertise...Michael Shermer is very popular amongst people who are into science. Ect.
Michael shermer is a very popular atheist speaker
Graham is a slimy grifter..
This Guy: "Why is there no tools or trash at this obviously sacred place?"
Me: I've been to a bunch of churches and have never seen the tools used to build them still laying about or left my trash behind inside them.
Hancock: I assume you have been to these places.
This guy: No I haven't.
Hancock: Oh dear.
Tf? There would still be things there that would prove how its built
@@theproprod211 what things do you mean?
@@theproprod211 That's a silly way of thinking. I live in a house that has literally NOTHING in or around it that tells people "how" it was built. I know how it was built, but there isn't anything to indicate that just kicking around waiting to be found by people. Generally speaking you don't leave all your shit laying around when you build stuff, because that would be both weird and wasteful. The tools and implements needed to build anything sufficiently advanced are themselves also advanced, and as such would be coveted by those who used them, not merely discarded and left to rot.
I'm an archaeologist and the sceptic guy isn't talking out of his ass, you usually find a lot of tools burried at archaeological sites, especially big ones
Respect to Joe here clearly standing up for Graham's none aggressive approach by pushing back for him when needed ,you can tell he has got Grahams back
'sticks up'? Micheal Shermer was extremely genial and polite and fully let his counterpart finish his part, in fact Graham interrupts him multiple times,
Joe asked for a debate and already had a side he wanted to win, Randall asks reasonable questions in a polite way, if Graham needs to be 'Stuck up' for in such a cordial exchange, then very much his accent is doing more for him than his points
@Cuth elar Some people just have it in them to think that when someone disagrees with your opinion its the same as a personal attack.
@cuth elar
You must be another unimaginative archeologist like Shermer. If you listen closer to the argument you will hear that Graham makes point after point about Gobekli Tepe that makes actual sense. While Shermer consistently regurgitates the same worn out arguments. You can teach anyone to go out and dig up artifacts methodically and record it in their notes. Which is what most archeologists do along with attacking anyone that goes against the status quo. The only way science moves forward is because of the work of Mavericks in their fields of science like Einstein and an amateur archeologist names Schliemann. Schliemann was ridiculed by the archeological establishment until he actually found the mythological city of Troy. I swear the field of archeology is filled with dullards that just follow the crowd.
Graham was not only the aggressor but overly aggressive to the point of exposing his own biases and past injuries = Graham has clearly been hurt by either this guy and/or others that have argued against him and/or his ideas. Graham has clearly been 'professional hurt' in the past by the reactions of fellow scientists.
@@Maxbps88 I thought both men acted professional and I bias choose Graham side.
My ancestors were hunter gatherers just a few generations back and from what I know there was very little FREE time. As a 65 year old man who hunts, fishes and gathers from the land for fun, even with all the tech (jeep, gun with scope, boat and four wheeler), to feed, clothe and shelter a family of four would take a considerable amount of time from the day. If they were agricultural and the climate was as volatile as stated, then crop failures would not allow them enough food to support the workforce. Logic would dictate they did both and maybe had to adapt their methods as the climate varied.
You are not factoring in the elder members of those groups, they had more time to plan and discover how to do things like our society today. Full-time scientists are less than 1% of the population. Most inventions are made by a SINGLE MAN, then everybody else learns to use the invention. Get it. The Maya calenders, like all of them, were developed by the priests. They had time every night to sit there and watch the stars.
I was thinking the same thing. Hunting takes more time than going to store. You can’t just drink water unless it’s pure of bacteria. So they’d have to heat up the water. Fishing always takes time and patience;maybe they had a net.
You forget that not everyone was busy. The priests in Mayan society came up with their amazing calendar. It must have been the same at gobekli tepeh. Think about these days, scientists spend so much time on fusion and cern collider because the rest of us work to provide for all the basic needs of everyone.
boomer understanding of time in full display
you're so far removed from your hunter gatherer ancestors that they wouldn't even recognize you as the same species, chill grandpa
@@youruncleted not so removed as you say... as a child we had no running water, outside toilet, wood stove, hunted and fished, gathered berries, gardened and the harsh winters were real special. I did not have a phone until my first day of college, even then I had no one to talk to anyway, lol. As for the name calling, I guess that just shows how insecure you are with your pampered existence.
If Mr Hancock would’ve said, “you argue with everything I say,” the other guy would’ve said, “I do not.”
not really. he agreed with him on like half the things he said
Hes a professional skeptic so even though i side w Grahms ideas i dont fault the guy for questioning and arguing everything its literally his job
He's there to argue.
Pseudohistory, claiming that an advanced civilisation would've consciously chosen not to use metal tools - that's just illogical. But Hancock makes money off of these theories
Hancock is a fantasy writer who people believe because he uses little bits of separate evidences to create new theories
“People have been carving stone for thousands of years”
yes that’s the point
I could listen to Graham and Randall speak all day and night.
I am an Engineer that works with GIS and completed my doctorate in Megalithic Steucrures. I've been to Gobekli Tepe, Karan Tepe, several other Tepes in Turkey and several Tells in Syria and Lebanon (which are older that GT). The constant return to the cave paintings is extremely Euroscebtric....and there are his motives. Several academic papers have been written on the subject...the latest from the University of Istanbul in December 2022...Archeology is coming around.
Love how blue shirt man appears for the first time 18 minutes in with no explanation lmao
Noah Headley That’s big Santa Randall Carlson-genius of a guy. Interesting his input into the debate pretty much crushed schermer so Schermer pretty much ignored it😂
back when joe and jamie got way too high before recording and editing haha
I didn't even know he was there until he said something🤣
@@gypsydoratarot8441 , no he’s not. The blue-shirt guy is Randall Carlson.
The underlining of anger n spite between them two is real
At the very end when Shermer states that cave paintings are equally impressive to mega monolithic sites, is absurd. It highlights the exact struggle that Graham had been claiming existed this entire episode but that Shermer was denying existed. "Mainstream" science doesn't want to do science things, such as asking question to push their own boundaries and assumptions.
I'm here 6 years later, its great that Graham and Randall have a huge following where they can highlight some of these insane mysteries that others seemingly were quick to gloss over.
Graham's story about the New Scientist magazine is pretty revealing of how his brain works. He made it sound very ironic and vindicating, but if you listen closely, all that's happened is he saw the cover story that was published and decided in his head that his book "essentially" said the same thing. "Civilization is older and more mysterious than we thought" is a pretty broad/generic idea and it wouldn't even necessarily be remarkable if Graham's critics published the same phrase that Graham had published without realizing it, but just to reiterate, they did not publish the same phrase because Graham never published that phrase, he just retroactively used the phrase to self-describe his book and declared himself a victory. Finally, Graham's book is not "essentially" about civilization being older and more mysterious. The essential message of his book, which is much more specific and is written in the TITLE AND SUBTITLE, is that a higher civilization influenced all other lesser civilizations that came after it.
There should be more conversations like this. The debate back and forth is great.
It's Hancock and Rogan arguing a conspiracy, and shooting down any other ideas 💡
❤😊 8:57
@@garry_thomasalways people like you who slap “conspiracy” onto something to discredit it instead of being open minded to both sides. Anatomically modern humans have been around for nearly 200,000 years, it wouldn’t be a stretch to theorize that there have been “advanced” civilizations before that have been lost to time.
Hancock: "There's 50x as much as what's on the surface still buried."
Me: Get the damn shovel!!!
Seriously, why waste time arguing? Just go fucking dig it up already
just heard that . holy shit . dig baby dig ..
I got a back hoe. Some assembly required but if they can build it we can dig it.
😄
and later it gets smaller on conversation 🤔 😁 personal attacking on Michael makes Graham's arguments harder to believe and "selective evidence".
22:05 exactly Joe Rogan!
Joe Rogan had him completely stumped with this question.
It's like saying we could build the burj khalifa but not a house!
Im old, but I just started watching Joe Rogan. And I wish he did more talks like this.
And after that, Michael and Graham went into the cage and Joe narrated the fight. Randall was the referee. Graham won by submission, Michael went to sleep from a choke, he couldn't even tap out in time.
😂😂😂
@@aniketrodrigues2394 he worked camera and sound for the fight obviously lol
No, that was this fight. Lmao
Hancock with an "F BOMB" out of know where 10/10
someone that swears like that in a debate weakens their argument , it shows frustration . Having said that , main stream history , science and evolution is all lies .
@Alexander Supertramp To line my pockets from gullible idiots that think it works!
Not a word from him about the Bosnian pyramids.
They are being excavated and studied by scientists now the same as with Gobleki Tepi.
Both sites studied at the same time.
Now.
@@Adam-7_7_7 fuck off
Adz F P holy shit are you really that ignorant you think evolution is a lie? that’s kinda pathetic and lazy do some research
I like how, he said 11,600 years
Around the same time as Meltwater Pulse 1B took place. Might explain the "abandonment" of it.
The way Graham talks is seriously just so incredibly satisfying. He just knows his shit and he knows he knows it's fucking LEGIY
I grew up in PNG - when I was about 8 I cut my forearm falling on a rock. My Papuan friend ripped the skin of a citrus 🍊 fruit. Thumbnail sliced it into quarters. After the first 1/2 hour the first piece socked up all the wound fluid. The second was strapped using the spine of a fern like plant. The skin dried shrank and squeezed the wound without stitches also insects stay away from citric acid. Very smart and I respected my learning in another culture as a boy in the 60’s.
Interesting story. But I have to ask.. wound fluid? Do you mean pus? LOL
You're absolutely right about the fern. It was probably an actual fern or a relative of the fern. You can take a fern and leave the spine as you call it on and just remove the leaves. When you get done it will look like a skeleton. You can take a thick Leaf like an oak leaf or a hickory or a beach and bandage it over top of the cut and somehow someway, the spine of the fern will draw up the skin and close it together and hardly leaves the scar. It's never been done to me but I've seen it done. Interesting story dude
I'm pretty sure people cook up & eat young ferns too.
@@ClickClack_Bam I love fawns.
Best piece of steak you will ever put in your mouth comes from a deer that's less than 6 months old. Yum yum yum
Next time you cut yourself, put the thin membrane between the layers of an onion on it before your bandage. It will heal in lightning speed. I had a Peruvian prep cook show me that years ago. Primitive medicine is incredibly effective
‘Maybe sometimes your skin is so thick, you can’t sense anything around you’ hahaha
buuurn 💀
I lol'd at that
It's clear that there skin is that thick!
savage
Yup 😆
wow... a solid 18 minutes and 17 seconds of silence from this man. Respect.
this was a great episode/argument/debate..👏👏👏
I'm so confused by Michael's argument or main point, it literally just sounds like he's just stirring shitpot of mainstream archaeology. It must be so frustrating to have a productive conversation in that field man 🙄
I thought that myself but after rewatching it for the 700th time I think he just wants some physical evidence, which actually makes sense. Although I’m with graham on this.
@@tadhgkeaveney4507 He wants trash and tools.. when the site hasn't even been near fully excavated. I don't lean to either side of their arguments, but that's pretty nonsensical.
@@BaldHeadedManc isn’t nonsensical at all, he wants hard evidence which at some point he will get, as I said I’m with graham on this
I love these debates. America needs more of this.
America needs less of this, and an education in logical argumentation. This is retarded.
Cyance lol what exactly do you consider to be “logical” this is peer review in action.
i don’t mean to be rude, but this may be what he’s saying; people aren’t exposed to fair debate and critical thinking-‘real’ knowledge is given to you in school and that’s it.
it’s a stunted way of thinking to only consider total factual stuff limiting yourself and the convo. it almost stopped at the point they realized he dug his heels in almost for the sake of being a skeptic.
i agree with you however in that this wasn’t that great especially the full version watch the clip or full one with SCHOCH and rogan. good luck and have a nice day.
hell yeah
Nick Nack i said in action. he’s a phd working out a scenario, a theory of course it’s not factual or guaranteed, a lot of science isn’t. it is however, important we DISCUSS things and not LIMIT ourselves.
@Nick Nack searches for entirely new ways of understanding and exporing unknown topics is helped by outside the box thinking. Just limiting any possible assumption to those already existing until you have overwhelming evidence otherwise is going to limit your potential for learning. Plenty of historians, archeologists included, get stuck trying to make any new evidence fit into existing concepts and theories and limit their ability to expand universal knowledge by staying within those limiting mental parameters. Guys like Einstein were famous for thought experiments that created new ideas and then seeking evidence to support them, rather than just looking at existing facts and analyzing g them from the standard viewpoint. My general point is it doesn't even matter if Graham is right or wrong, his proposals and ideas are worthwhile in the general pursuit of universal knowledge. Failed scientific theories still advance knowledge, and can often inspire new ways of thinking about other problems.
It's so interesting that you have no choice but to learn something from this.
If we can't have a discussion like this and debate about any subject, we shouldn't sit at the same table.
Interesting watching this 6 years later where archeologists uncovered residential communities & businesses stretching across the land finding decorative beads, tools, etc within those 'communities'... I get Michael's thought process because I once was stubborn as well (still am but catching myself). At the end of the day we should never conclude on anything until everyone agrees on the answer. There's so much we don't understand and still uncovering that we won't answer in our lifetime. If anything we are still pioneers
Dude keeps on asking what they mean by "advanced" and they keep saying the construction was big, and intricately carved, but no one seems to drive home the addtional idea of the complex math involved
And how did they carve that stone in bas relief? That is by any measure Advanced Work.
I wouldn't say that complex math is required. I've been in construction for 20 years and a relatively dumb guy with experience can build well and simple things like straight lines and plumb walls are easy to do. It's possible to create this place with moderate knowledge only a few generations after first attempting rock carving and building with stone. It's clearly more special than just a house of stone, so those people had this knowledge for some time.
@@marthamryglod291 They aligned it with the rotation of stars
@@ManassaLaCoa oh yeah I forgot to consider that.
@@marthamryglod291 building it is easy but architectural planning seems to require advanced concepts
The dude in the blue showed up like he beamed into the starship enterprise...
I wanted to thumb up this comment but it s at 100! N that just hits harder💯
Having Randall Carlson in the cut is legendary
@ 8:25 That was so savagely smooth 👏👏👏 Graham is an intellectual beast.
I literally, laughed out loud🤣
Hunter gatherers have to move about so that they do not over hunt an area and run out of food.
They do not hunt one area long enough to carve 20ft long slabs out of stone, then carve faces and animals out of the stone in 3D, then move that stone and place it in a fashion that points to magnetic polar earth positions or astrological positions in the sky.
Aboriginals were hunter gatherers when the English came here to Australia.
They do not have megalithic sites.
They did not do carvings into or out of stone.
There are no pyramids in Australia.
There are no astrological cave paintings.
Nothing indicating knowledge of north or other compass direction.
Nothing indicating knowledge of earths circumferance or longtitude/latitude position.
Exactly
They do if they return annualy with the seasons.
Not to mention that hunter gatherers would not have had time to both Hunt and build this shit all at the same time. Someone clearly had to be feeding the laborers that were building this place. There is no way that they would be able to hunt and gather enough food to feed a workforce of this size. That’s not really how it works. When you hunt and gather you are mainly hunting and gathering to support you and your family for the next day or two. You’re not going to be able to kill and or gather and or prepare enough to feed more than that at a time on a daily basis. This means they must of had a surplus of food which means they had agriculture.
You're actually wrong about Aboriginals, they were excellent and I mean excellent trackers and part of the reason was because they had a very good knowledge of what was North, South, East and West.
There's actually an Aboriginal language that doesn't have the words 'left' or 'right' in it instead they use West and East, your 'west' hand and your 'east' hand, and it would chance depending on whether your hand really was facing East or West and it's thought their language developed this way just so they would have such a good knowledge of direction and again is part of what made them some of the best trackers in the world.
How do we know they were such good trackers? Englishmen would use them to track escaped Aboriginals and they were very impressed by them.
Its a mistake to compare Australian aboriginals to other hunter gatherer societies. The Egyptians of the old kingdom were capable of far greater things than other societies of the same time for example. It is also a mistake to assume that a hunter gatherer society cannot produce a sustainable food surplus. it's possible that these primitives had methods of gathering food that far surpassed societies of the time, just like old kingdom construction engineering was peerless in their era. Further study is needed or you're just making assumptions.
Damn, I can feel the tension in the debate 3 yrs later
They plan a rematch on Zoom
Such an interesting conversation….thanks for posting
Having Graham Hancock and Randall Carson together is always amazing
I love how Joe every now and than has to have verbal reassurance that they are still talking about humans and not aliens constructing the temple lol
Yes, and what evidence do we have that they were/are humans?
@@johnoffenberg6487 more than any evidence we have that they weren't
That's for 90% of Graham's audience who thinks it was aliens.
@@Bixnoodle well, except for the longest time we didnt believe hunter gatherers could make a 20 acre structure then bury it. similar to the pyramids
This made me chuckle.
I think it’s entirely possible that advanced civilizations rose & fell throughout the eons that we have no proof of.
Definitely. But we do have proof all over this planet, the Sphinx, Gobekli, all the citys and stone works along the coastlines under water off of many countries. Etc.....
Sandman Austin True but I mean even earlier then those civilizations.
@@RenR70 I agree 100% pretty much proven beyond a doubt that the Sphinx is 12,000 years old minimal. The early dynastic Egyptians said in their writings that they where a legacy of a early civilization ( zepteppy) . The plausibility of Atlantis. So if we have been around for 200,000 to 300,000 years as modern homo sapiens how many times have we climb to a advanced (more or less then today) civilization and wiped out by, comet/ meteor, plague, nuclear/weapons of mass destruction , etc.... and started over again.
Not much is going to last for 20, 30, 40 100 Thousand years except stone.
Sandman Austin True, every time we think we found the oldest civilization we find something older & will continue to do so.
We came from Mars. Fact!
If Shermer is correct, we are to believe that a group of hunter/gatherers stopped roaming while looking for food, and built one of the most impressive stone structures ever constructed. The length of the project and the number of people it would have taken to build such a structure would have required them to settle in one place. This would require them to farm and build dwellings to remain at the site and build the structure. I also don’t think that hunter/gatherer groups traveled in enormous groups of people. It is obvious that if primitive people built this with primitive tools it would have required lots of people to do it. For me, all points to advanced civilization.
Doesn't mean all the hunter-gatherers had to stop hunting and gathering, just that they supported some sort of artist caste who worked on the site day in day out, and ate what was given to them.
But there is no evidence for an advanced civilization. That is the main problem with Hancock. He has no evidences whatsoever for his theories.
@@DonRicoKing I think that's the point. We can't find the evidence that archeologists want, except for the structures themselves. No one can explain how it was done, which in a sense is enough evidence to question the "mainstream" theories. GT is a new discovery which massively questions previous assumption/schools of thought. There is literally no hard evidence to suggest the ancient Egyptians built the great pyramids, yet everyone has been told therefore thinks they did. It opens up a whole load of questions that may contradict the establishment of archeology who have made their livelihoods on previous schools of thoughts, which is what we are all taught growing up.
Sometimes the lack of evidence is all the evidence one may need
@@dp3699 "We can't find the evidence that archeologists want" that is what annoys me. You re suggesting that there is a mafia consisting of Archeologists. But that is not true at all. Archeologists are always extremely thrilled, then somebody makes a new discovery.
@@dp3699 "No one can explain how it was done, which in a sense is enough evidence to question the "mainstream" theories. GT is a new discovery which massively questions previous assumption/schools of thought. There is literally no hard evidence to suggest the ancient Egyptians built the great pyramids, yet everyone has been told therefore thinks they did." That is not right at all. There are mathematical and chemical methods to calculate when the building of the pyrmaids startet and ended. How they were build is a different story. It is true, nowadays there is no final theory on how they were build. There are different theories based on experiments and findings at the pyramids. There are also scientific scrolls. But with time the picture is getting clearer. For example some scientist found, that there was a now dried out waterway, which they use to transport the stones to the building site.
They have since discovered that the whole area may have been the biggest metropolitan area ever on Earth. There are several sites that are basically all connected,including houses. It’s basically a metropolitan area that appears to be several hundred miles
If you look at NYC and Afghanistan, you’d wouldn’t think they’d be in the same world, let alone the same year in 2021. Whatever was there 12,000 years ago, lived like that and given the environment and the way the world has changed it has preserved everything the way it is. Certain parts of the world lived what seemed like different time frames. Not sure if that makes sense
Same argument by me too. We assume that people were at same level of progess all over the world 12000 yrs ago. This should be debated.
@@kshelley121 You don’t even need to think about Afghanistan. There are currently many tribes in South America, Africa, Indian Ocean etc. who live way more primitively than the peoples of Göbekli Tepe.
@@ELVIS1975T Yes. Hopefully archaeologists will one day acknowledge that a very advanced civilization existed centuries ago
We have civilizations today that still live like hunter gatherers. Why couldnt there be different peoples at different levels of development in the past?
Ignore the comments, I know what u mean,. Totally Agree
In 1950's, men were the professional, made the money, to support family.
Women got married, stayed home and had babies....except one that went to Harvard, then Cornell Law, and then to be Supreme court Justice.
There are always outliers.
@Nick Nack Technically there are "civilization" living today with Hunter gather culture. Civilization is just a way to describe man made environment, there are plenty of Amazon tribes and island locked civilization that don't have modern cultures.
Great point. If one were to only find proof of European civilization dating back to the Medieval period, alien archaeologists would assume humanity was an awful lot stupider than they would if they were to discover an Arabian or Asian civilization dating to that time lol
@Nick Nack nitpicking. I get that.
@ " In this broad sense, a civilization contrasts with non-centralized tribal societies, including the cultures of nomadic pastoralists, Neolithic societies or hunter-gatherers, but sometimes it also contrasts with the cultures found within civilizations themselves. "
Imagine building an epic mega structure with your own 2 hands just for some dude with a piece of paper to ask you bUt wHerE’s dA tRaSh
My 10th grade physic’s teacher showed me this a while back I love coming back every once and a while
While Michael Schermer raises some decent points, his general closed-mindedness on this topic amazes me, especially when he says a cave painting is more impressive/challenging than the largest megalithic structure known to mankind today.
@Nick Nack the organization of the workforce, education system and the technology to feed and house large number of workers on site transport materials knowledge of astrology ect, ect... To build this, is ridiculous to compare with cave drawings with a sloppy 3d effect.
@Nick Nack sloppy sketchy drawing, I would be ashemed of trying to make the point he tried to make. He got mocked, for good reason.
@Nick Nack I don't know about Hancock or his ancient high civilisation claims.
But what I know is the comparison between the skills and cognitive abilities needed to fingerpaint an animal on the wall of a cave (very sloppily) and the skills and knowledge required to train, feed, house thousands of workers to build an enormous temple, moving 30 foot rocks in the process, is laughable.
@Nick Nack I saw the video of the site where they show what they have excavated up to now, and how it's only 5% of all the site. The enormous sculpted columns, with engraved 3d depictions of their 10 Gods. This was a bit more complex and sofisticated than what hunter gatherers were known to be able to do to say the least. And far more impressive than the lascaux drawings, and I'm French and I have visited the lascaux caves.
@Nick Nack I have a feeling, like the other guy in the video, that you have no understanding of how collosal construction work is done and what is needed in terms of organisation to pull it off.
I also have a feeling that you are not genuine, and you have an agenda.
It boggles the mind to see someone argue that a 3d carving of a feline on a 30 foot man made column for example, is at the same level of complexity than the lascaux drawings. It's beyond ridiculous. It's like comparing the iPhone with Morse code transmitters.
And then you try to save face by going with "it's artistically on the same level". Well that my friend is subjective, and is not the topic of the matter.
You just have no arguments, and you try to make an impossible case to try to refute or dismiss massive new evidence that doesn't fit your agenda (it seems).
'Where are the metal tools?"
Interesting question. At the "building of King Solomon's Temple," it is said in the Entered Apprentice degree, "there was not heard the sound of an axe, hammer, or any tool of iron."
Gravity control.
r. i. p. Claus Schmit, who did the work to show us our history in Anatolia, Turkey. Fascinating stuff.
18:19 that Randal jump scare lol I totally forgot he was in this discussion too
I could entertain Shermer's skepticism up until 23:25 when he compares cave paintings to megoliths
He wasn't comparing megoliths to cave paintings., he was referring to the art work on the megoliths to the cave paintings.
@@Leeside999 Yeah which even then is a huge effin leap.
@@cordovalark5295 not necessarily, its just another form of art
This is prime JRE. His legendary casts with Hancock, Carlson and Trussell will never be recaptured.
Let us not forget Jones and Barvo
@@Jet_Rod_94 lol
Hancock is mostly a money man..He seems to have started out as a more genuine archeologist type, but flew into the americanized world of trendism. They create and analyze trends and then comes the DVDs.... Dollars. This is why we see that blend of postmodernism or a kind of neo-theosophy with more genuine interest in the ancient past. This is very bad because one ruins a whole subject this way.
@@KibyNykraft 🤦🤦🤦
I love this 🙂 Talking and respect is amazing 🎉
How very interesting to hear these people debate and discuss theories
Gobekli Tepe is quite a bit more advanced than the primitive cave paintings of Italy. Hard to imagine a bunch of nomadic hunter-gatherers suddenly learned advanced rock quarrying and sculpting techniques at such an early date. But it seems humanity has had pockets of more high-minded peoples going back 10s if not 100s of thousands of years. I think that wherever the Sumerians suddenly and inexplicably inherited their advanced civilization from, there is probably some link with Gobekli Tepe and other such yet-to-be-discovered sites in that part of the world.
Exactly what I said. Hunter gatherers don’t jjst wake up one day and know how to build the pyramids and GT and things like it. Just doesn’t happen
I agree with you on this, which is why I think it is regarded as a marvel.
@@harveyblevins74 I have a personal theory that certain sites of dense and consistent resources would sometimes bring multiple smaller hunter gatherer populations together, and I think a result of that established regional conglomeration was those multiple cultures coming together to build certain small cultural hubs to share those resources.
I mean from what we assume hunter gathers would fight each other over pockets of land like this, but what if that wasn’t always the case, and some realized that if there was enough to go around everyone could benefit from it?
Over time as the cultures would become more and more homogeneous, the sight would gain greater and greater cultural significance and grow larger, and as it grew larger more and more people would spend time around it leading to people spending time around large amounts of natural resources in turn to possible leading advancements in agriculture as population density would inevitably rise.
I think this site in particular was a early-mid stage of this scenario happening
@@themotions5967 or they were playing a huge war game simulation and they kept there flag there in a game Of capture the flag
It was hilarious when Randall started to speak. I had no idea he was even there.
Haha true
Joe is the king of chat shows, Ive not seen any interviewer’s past and present that are anywhere near as interesting as him and the guests he has on.
Thank you Joe for bringing people that educate us. Bless u my friend!!
random: good morning
Shremer: I dont really agree..
I usually say "Grand rising".
And he'd be correct.
@@kendonato1887 lol
Where’s your tools?
random: good morning
Hancock: It was the Atlanteans...
Why do all these skeptics always think that builders are going to spend probably their entire life building one of the most significant structures ever made on the planet and then just leave their shit scattered around everywhere like they’re not gonna clean up when they’re done.
Because historical finds show a pattern of not cleaning up
What that other guy said, it's because when you look through a lot of big structures you find little bits here and there. A broken handle, or some guy dropped his old junky chisel down a hole and didn't want to climb in to get it back, or they find a stone hammer split into 10 pieces that they can piece back together and get a reliable idea of what it was, etc.
It might be that these people simply didn't do it that way, but that would be kinda unusual.
@@davidj8321 and history also constantly changes. History also tells us that we were loin cloth cave dwellers until like 5k years ago and started building gigantic near impossible structures and then got worse at it as we went.
Gopelki tepe:- a site where Noah alias Murugan regenerated animals from the dna which he took in this boat before Noah floods.
Noah did not carry physical animals but DNA.
T pillar contains box animals figure and dna structure.
The absence of evidence doesn’t mean an ancient lost civilization is existed, but we aren’t going to say one did simply because it’s possible.