The Best Hardtail We Can't Recommend | Tom's Santa Cruz Chameleon Long-Term
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- čas přidán 5. 06. 2024
- At £5700 and boasting Santa Cruz's own excellent Reserve carbon wheels, this SE+ build was never going to win value awards.
However, with a basic Fox 34, SRAM GX and Guide R brakes, we really can't help thinking Santa Cruz should have done a lot better, even though we love to ride this bike.
What do you think? Let us know in the comments!
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Since we filmed this video, Santa Cruz have dropped the price of the Chameleon C SE+ in the UK to £5399. While we can’t claim credit for them deciding to drop the price (though we’d like to!), we reckon it’s a good move from Santa Cruz. It’s still a very, very expensive hardtail though!
Still ridiculous. Over twice as much as expensive competitors
@@Coerced Yes indeed, their prices are riding with absurdity, a carbon hardtail thats not for XC super racing for $4000 dollars is just too much. Even just checking their own lineup you can buy a full sus ALU Bronson for the same price. Its just hilarious
U should use the 29er dropout when u run 27+/29
One can buy a brand new Kawasaki ninja 400cc sport bike off the showroom floor for 5500 bucks…. Pretty sure Santa Cruz is giving us the hose
I laughed out loud when I heard the pricing, that is just insane for this kind of bike and spec.
It has a 2k set of wheels on it... That's the real issue
For this price it is crazy stupid to even consider buying it. So many bikes that could be had at this price that make way more sense. This is the play toy you should add to the bike collection not the main bike so it shouldn't be main bike prices.
fishing0620 1985 not everyone can afford multiple bikes, sir. For somebody like me it would be my one do it all bike for multiple years, a bike that would have to be forgiving at first but not get outgrown.
@@axelbuckets3858 you've just justified the key criticism of the price. If you can only have one bike, for the price there are hugely better options. I mean, a fully pimped Stanton Titanium rig will cost you £4500 - Titanium, built in the UK with top everything!!!! That bike could outlive you and it's still about £1000 cheaper.....by the way, that £1000 you saved could be put towards an excellent commuter bike, meaning you get to keep the Stanton for weekend fun.
Anthony Shillingford I like your way of thinking
Nobody:
Absolutely nobody:
Santa Cruz: Here, a hardtail for the price of a carbon road bike, a carbon gravel bike, a carbon full suspension combined. With average components.
Yeah, but it's a mahfugging Santa Cruz!
@Bike!Bike! u kidding?
@@Metal-Possum replace 'but' with 'typically'
Bike!Bike! Trek Stache
santa cruz doesnt put the prices. The price is put by the market, the bike costs what people is willing to pay. I have a santa, bought it with 30% discount, and still was a rip off, but it's a good bike, better than otheres. Specialized, pinarello, yeti, and twenty other brands are also expensive. This one looks sick, so that si why it's expensive, cause it's a sick bike and people will pay it. THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT SANTA CRUZ DOESN'T WANT TO PAY BIKE RADAR ADVERTISEMENT MONEY, OR DEMO TRIP, OR PRESENTATION OR... YOU NAME IT. THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY ON THE REVIEW.
Damn 5000 for a GX groupset?! For 4000 u can get a Canyon Spectral (trail fully with carbon frame) with XO1 Eagle and have money to go to a bike trip!
That's money well spent
Ah, i see Santa Cruz is following Apple's step, okay
You could buy a Yeti sb100/130/150 for that price.
You could buy the frame and a well equipped full sus, swap over the parts then sell the full sus frame + shock.
I had a similar single speed experience. I did it at uni because I couldn't afford to replace things - then I got addicted. Do it. Single speed is just better.
Not with carbon wheels, which arguably add a ton to the ownership experience. Less issues with wheels and less weight where it matters.
@@sturdyvw actually you could, 5700GBP is 7200 dollars, 5200 for the SB GX build, that leaves 2k for some carbon wheels.
Best review i've seen on BikeRadar ever, love the honesty, makes me really like the frame but the honesty on the price and component set is nice to hear!
Love my Aluminum Chameleon, a little pricey for the R+ build but for my first entry into MTB it was worth it to have a built bike to learn on.
The geometry is amazing. It’s super playful, I can jump the thing off 6ft tall wood kickers with 10ft gaps no problem. The thing rips, short chainstay, super slack head angle, ability to run 29, 27.5, + size, and single speed all in one setup is awesome. I have several wheel sets I swap out super easily for any kind of riding.
It’s hilarious when the full sus guys are scratching their heads at this thing flying down the same stuff they are. Hah, makes me chuckle
Great bike. Not so bad price wise for the Aluminum complete.
Love the honesty. Dont see much of that with many reviewers including established ones. Keep up the good work.
Good work on the honesty. Definitely considering running 29/27.5+ on my cotic. Sounds like the best of both worlds.
Tom Marvin upping his game. Congrats @Bikeradar for the video!
Thanks for the honest review! This is the type of review that inspires trust in BikeRadar. For that kind of money a buyer shouldn't be feeling that any part could be a little better.
Thanks - glad you appreciated the review - this is what we aim to do for all of them :)
I think a lot of the price is the Reserve rims.
Great review! Love the honesty!!
Haha. You're rant at the end of this video is absolutely awesome!!
A great review. All the information was there and wrapped up in an honest, raw opinion.
I think a little recalibration is needed here though.
If you want to have loads of fun ripping up local woody trails on a hardtail, £700 or less will buy you all you need. For many, that's still expensive.
Digging that ripper of a hardtail! Thanks for your honesty with this review. Definitely would just purchase the frame.
Thanks for giving an honest review! Great video.
Everyone in the comments need to realize that he added $2000 to the price because of the carbon wheels. So really the price is 3700
But then you have a bike without wheels... you’re joking right?
just get the aluminium with alu wheels...wtf...why is carbon such a hype...for saving 1kg which you'll add back in water on your backpack? I think this weight saving is just insane...I guess It counts when you Ride competively to get just that edge but for normal people riding for fun or going to work I think it is stupid to buy everything in carbon and pay double
Good review and pretty fair. I find I reach for the Chameleon just about every time and leave the full sususpension bikes where they are as it is generally a hoot to ride. Point taken about the price but in terms of smiles as a return on your inevetsment, it can't be beaten. Cheers. Mark
@@Bigdaddyschnooks 6' and went with a large which is perfect for me
I am glad you did this video. I wanted desperately to buy this bike but could not figure out the spec for the price. My concern has been validated.
Apparently, this bike was specced by the US Department of Defense. 💵
such an honest review. love it
Got the 2018 chameleon and love how versatile it is!
I have to say I ride this bike currently and the price is very reasonable actually I do XC racing on it and can send downhills and jumps with it. This bike is indestructible and super light and fast. Also, where I ride in Northeastern PA and NJ it’s super rough and technical which this bike eats up for breakfast.
I bought the frame and the reserve wheels and specced the rest to XO1 level for less than you mention. Most fun bike I have ridden in 27 years of mountain biking. I love to more than my Hightower LT - which is an awesome bike in itself
how much was it all?
Goran Drobac about £4000 with Carbon Reserve wheels and fox 34 shock and dropper post
Love the honest review! 5.7 grand...They should sell these in local shops around my place, nothing but snobs here. Shop owner just laughs wen you'r looking for a bike under 3k...
Thanks for the review. I agree, buy the frame and build your bike like you want....probably for less money. Santa Cruz are even expensive in California too.
I bought it, and I love it. I use it way more than my Bronson!
i've ridden the chammy in carbon, ally, 27.5+ and 29, 'cheap' X-fusion/dt swiss build and pro build fox/SC-reserve, you'll have just as much fun on a cheap one as the top one, you'll just have a slight weight disadvantage, and some parts may not be as tough. they are awesome, they do everything well, i'm even toying with replacing my full sus (intense ACV) with one if i can't afford one soon, just keeping up with friends at big bike parks like revolution holding me back.
New Ibis DV9 owner..
so fast and light. Awesome hardtail.
Tried the chameleon.. solid bike, wack value..
It's mid-2019 and Bikeradar still has shaky gopro footage. So there are these things called "gimbals"... Also Hero 7 has stabilization built in. Also bunch of other 2 year old cameras like Xiaomi Yi, Sony have it. Pretty useful feature. You might want to look into this.
Would love to see a carbon hardtail only comparison. And also how it compares to the alloy version. I love my alloy chameleon in 27.5+. Was under $2000.
Happy I bought the frame and built my own - even before I watched this.
Santa Cruz should be ashamed of their prices
Thomas Li it is a joke. But sadly as long as people buy them...
Yeah even with bike shop industry prices, they're a little much. With that said though, out of 10 shop employees, 8 of us ride Santa Cruz bikes over Specialized...
@@richardsonj96 I don't ride with people who ride a specialized hahaha
Marin all the way.
I liek turtles
Brutally honest. Love it.
yes, very honest, with canyon advertisement money.
Couldn't agree more with the review. Currently own the alloy version.
that feeling when a top spec yt capra is cheaper than this hard tail with mid tier components
Yep, so bad value
@@antonlaukkanen8850 true.... lifetime warranty isnt enough to justify considering how hard it is to break carbon bikes "accidentally" nowadays
@tommarvin great review. I’m wondering if you did a similar price comparison on the $3800 USD build? I did the math and it more or less worked out based on $1700 USD for the frame. No carbon wheels but I used the extra cash to buy a set of 29” wheels. Great idea to put the 29” up front! With two sets of wheels, the 27 / 29 set up and single speed option, it’s like having 4 bikes! Last question, what single speed cassette do u recommend? Again, great review. Thanks!
Looking to get one next week. He is correct, get some wheels, and speck it up with your own parts, you will be sub-3k... just a thought. Great review BTW!
Thanks for your honest review.
And people say Ebikes are expensive... A hardtail at £5700 😳😳.
Yeah for that money I can get a really nice specialized levo🙈
wild_world or a a nice YT Decoy 😊😊
Piss take
@@andypaul999 Yea, but those are top level race bikes.
You’ve never ridden one, have you?
I love your videos - keep doing what you do! 👍🏻 I want to ask a quick question to you; I’d be so glad if you respond > I’m 5’10 - what would be the best size for me? According to the SC web site it’s definitely medium but I thought the smaller the size the more fun it gets on the trails; what do you think/suggest? I want to ride a bit technical and hard trails and really get the right size. I live in N California.
Looking forward to the single speed review.
i have the poor man's $1700 santa cruz chameleon ... i absolutely love it.
Smart man Leo!
I have the aluminum frame built up, and it's fantastic!
Also coming from a Kona Honzo ST....that was a dog compared to the rippin' SC Chameleon, just tons of fun!
And yet that is a rich man's bike for me. I would not buy a bike that expensive. $1,700!! No sir! That's 1/4 of what my car is worth.
Valladolid then don’t ...
@@josh33172 so you weren't a fan of the steel honzo? I'm not seeing great things about it
finally a bike review that doesn't care about the manufacturers feelings or being shunned by them!!!!!!!
I agree with you SC makes super nice bikes BUT holy cow even the D or R aluminum versions are a bit much given the specs. If I am going to spend almost $6k on a bike it better come with all the bells and whistles and a massager or I should be buying a super decked out full sus.
For that money, you can have:
A hand built steel frame, built to your spec and geometry, out of steel. An amazing build kit
AND still have 3000 leftover for other bikes
For that money you'd be welcome to all of my bikes and my van to take them away in.
I agree the price is a bit high and building from the frame is how I would go, and I own a 2017 Chameleon which I love to ride after swapping most components around to what I like. But also remember their Warranty is lifetime on those wheels and frame which is a "Cost"
I might suggest getting the aluminum frame with good components and save a bunch $$$$ .
That's what I did love mine
You can get an aluminum version for $1799 . I just came from a bike shop here in Phoenix. They had a build in each tire size . I realize the drivetrain and fork will be obvious downgrades from the bike reviewed . I’m 68 so though I would like the pricier build I can get by with the lower priced build and do upgrades as needed . Seems like it would be a good desert bike for what I need .
You're supposed to be drawn to buying a complete bike because of the money savings vs building from frame and components... but that's not the case here! I like the bike, but only a poser with excess of money would buy this as a complete. Personally I'd go for alu frame, 2 wheelsets, the best fork and brakes I can afford and a workhorse level drivetrain. I Great review though, brands should be called out when needed!
Perhaps, and this happens with a company product portfolio in any industry, SCrz is nudging folks away from the SE+ to consider the money ball products in the lineup. Much like Tom's analysis on build price, even including a lifetime warranty, the build is in that WTF space. What it causes me to do, which I don't have the time for, is to go through each build across the product lines to test for good price targets. Regardless, what was once a boutique/unique focus becomes too big, trying to keep everyone happy. Along with China tariffs and US report showing a drop in new riders, I'm bracing for both higher expense and more time spent value shopping. BikeRadar helps with this. Cheers.
The pricing sounds like an issue with the UK importer more than Santa Cruz as such. This model costs $5700 (£4500) in the US. You can get the Hightower C S RSV for £5100 in Norway.
Love that bike, og, nothing breaks
I still recommend the aluminum, its a fantastic riding aluminum frame, and you save quite a bit of cash (as the frame is reasonably priced) to go into the build. I have mine set up SS, but have had it set up geared, and its just an great riding fun to ride hardtail!
@@Bigdaddyschnooks 5'9 size medium
Very nice review!!! What about the Orbea Laufey? Is not as...fancy? as Santa Cruz, but it looks the same concept and in terms of value for money looks very well. Furthermore, there is a new 2020 model.
The chameleon and the nomad have always been some of the best bikes out and I have always wanted both but never bought one because of price for the build kit or lack of build.
I was shocked I didn’t buy the chameleon since I have always wanted one but went with a different hardtail at a better price and build.
This hard tail and the Kona Honzo are hands down the Best hard tails out there
If you want a Santa Cruz, it's best to buy a used one or buy a used frame and spec it out yourself. I saved a pretty penny going that latter route with the Tallboy 3.
Love the honesty
I dig the jazzy soundtrack
Thanks, I think ill do just that, Frame and then my choice of kit. :-)
What do you think about this bikes climbing abilities? I know its slacker than a traditional xc bike and not even the same category but I'm interested in a do everything bike.
Hi man. What do you think about de 2021 version?. I'm looking for a well spec entry level MTB. Should I consider other options?. Here in Peru there are little options to choose. Only big names like: Trek, Specialized, Kona and Santa Cruz. Thank you.
Good review and great recommendations. Santa Cruz bikes are quite good, I like them, but their spec has been getting worse and worse without decreases in price. Value on any of their stock builds is questionable, especially when you can buy all the parts separately for less. You pretty much have to go frame-only and build your own.
If I owed a £5700 hardtail for bike packing I'm not going to sleep! No tent or sleeping bag required. Saves money and weight. 😎
Thanks for being honest even so they have given you a long termer.
£5000! 🤣🤣🤣🤣 feck oof an extremely nice hardtail is £2500
That's why I bought the aluminum one!
... that's approx $10,500AUS. You could travel to Asia for a holiday with that coin FROM THE UK!!!!
AccFinEco yeah tell me about it... $10k for a MTB hardtail like that ? “dreamin..”
On Santa Cruz's website, the top model is only $5,600 USD. $5,700** why would it be so much more in the UK?
@@tom-coppola which is 1.3k at most I hope
Was expecting expensive price but wow... and kudos for calling a rip off a rip off.
I scored a great buy on less than 100 miles 2019 SC chameleon D aluminum XL
$900 US it flies through the boring slightly uphill sections of the trails I normally don’t care for on my full suspension.
Like it coasts uphill !
I got the aluminum R+ rides amazing
Been doing the mullet for over a year now but have gone back to 29 all round on the hard tail as it’s faster. Gissa shout next time you’re up BPR. Take it up Birdlip for a proper test of how capable it is... probably a bit short imo.
Cool bike great review! BUT you can get a loaded Canyon or YT dripping with spec for 5K! Pulse you can get alot of other great HT for less.. nook proof scout.
I have an original 26" 2001 SC Chameleon in the polished finish. At that time the company itself was only about 8 years old or so. This frame was fabricated by hand, and beautifully so, in Santa Cruz CA. Very sturdy design. Very good handling. I think I remember in those days the frame being like a $500 item. Now the frames are made in Asia, pretty sure not handmade (to be honest robot made is not so bad with its repeatable results) and not sure of the cost but I'm pretty sure they are way overpriced, whether in Alu or carbon. It's true, they are good. They always were. I just wanted to say that they used to be fairly priced, and this was when they were made in USA with USA labor cost. No idea what happened, but it appears to coincide with when they were bought by a Dutch multinational. Apparently greed is not just a USA thing.
I cracked the frame dropping off a loading dock at Safeway, but instead of throwing it out I sent it off to Frank The Welder in Vermont. He had it for two years. I think we both forgot he had it. I got it back beautifully repaired however, and use it to commute now. No more loading docks for this one!
Switched off at the price ! They must be havin a laugh 😂
When I first heard the price in the UK, my immediate thought is the UK distributor is making a mint, but then I read that SC bought out Jungle in 2018, so SC/PON is the distributor! I had to correct my comment because this particular build in the review is $4,800-ish in the US, before taxes. With the 17% duty on non-EU bikes coming into the UK, that puts the price right at $5,700 USD. However, £5,700 is just over $7,400 with current conversion rate, so I have no idea where the additional $2k is coming from.
Their new “R” prices are more reasonable, I ended up getting a few month old “S” off a guy for a steal. Compared to my previous medium 26er the XL 29er is huge (I’m 6’2) Unsure if it’s too huge to be fun yet. I don’t send it much, just enjoying xc riding in the steep WV hills. Amazing high quality bike, super stable on the downhills compared to old bikes. Just a little lazy on climbs and popping on/off of rocks and logs.
I got the R+ version of this bike for $2000 a freaking steal!
I have all my sram 2016 xx1 components already so I am transferring frames to this bike so its a really good price for the frame only
I would never pay more than $1500 USD for a hardtail. You can get a dope full sus for 6000 USD. Santa Cruz is high.
@waquzy even then it doesn’t change the fact that it’s overpriced as hell, if your gonna spend that much money on something so mediocre then I hope your drowning in cash
kona big honzo offers a pretty similar spec except the fork is rock shox and way cheaper..would you guys suggest kona big honzo / honzo DL the best hardtail? or the nukeproof one
I've got a BigHonzo - amazing, capable and fairly light bike. Original 2.8 tires were fun, but in time I've swapped them for 29er x 2.6 - the fact that they actually fit is just amazing. And with 415mm CS length it's super easy to turn around switchbacks. Highly recomend
I want to upgrade my chainring, would I get a 3mm dub or 6mm chainring? I'm looking at getting either 32T or 34T just because the 30T is too small.
About 5700 dollars in the states even. That’s still 4480 pounds. Crazy.
I'd buy the stock frame.
Hunt wheels (bombproof, light and lighter than some carbon wheels £350 pound a steal) prefer ali rims.
Shimano slx 12 speed group set with a XTR shifter.
Trust fork.
Enve m7 carbon stem/bars.
Maxxis Assegai 2.5/27.5+ on rear and Maxxis Shorty on 2.5/29 front.
hunt wheels have shit freehubs, they are just novatecs - go for hope hubs if you want to ride in the uk in wet weather
Well done bike radar for the honest review santa cruz should be embarrassed at that price
You could get the top model canyon strive for that much!
Only problem is that canyon geometry is 10 years old, and that strive couldn't be shorter. google for "canyon customers review" and freak out a little bit.
@@exodusvelo oh come on geometry on a hardtrail
THIS CANNOT justify a 3000 k price diff im sorry
top of the line hardtrail from canyon coasts about 4500 with cpomplete xtr kashima fox and carbon wheels
a "new geometry"(looks exactly like canyons more or less btw) is not worth that much
and costume service is fine if you live in germany :P
Can you Please make a Review about a Salsa Timberjack. Thanks
Tom, I completely agree SC’s spec is not that worth it the Reverb isn’t some hot stuff now and the basic Guide R’s and performance fork is insanely stupid on Santa Cruz’s part
I was always under the impression that a carbon frame is a bit more fragile than aluminium, can the frame crack or break if it gets slammed hard in a jump? i've seen carbon road bikes totally break in half in a crash.
The bike snobs will love this bike
Please review Specialized Chisel..
A mate of mine has done exactly that. Bought the frame and with a bit of shrewd ebaying got an Ohlins fork, X01 eagle and carbon wheels etc and was still less that £4k.
Mark James still doesn’t explain how stupid this is;
@@willd0g completely agree. Even my mates bike at 4k sounds really expensive for a hardtail. But at least it looks like it's worth that much. The stock bike at £5700 is frankly ridiculous and takes the piss.
why do people seem to think mullet bikes are something new? my 2002 Specialized Big Hit was a mullet bike by design. it had a 24' back wheel and a 26' front wheel, and was an awesome bike!
was thinking of buying the 5010 but this made me rethink :(
Buy the aluminium frame and build it with leftover parts and some new ones. I have about $1200 USD in my whole Chameleon. It is my second bike I may add.
I build nukeproof scout 290 on spank wheels and hope cranks lyrik ultimate and fox dropper for less than 3 grand
Can you do the review on new scott scale 960?
I nearly fainted when I heard the price. You could buy literally a top shelf carbon full suspension from many other brands for that, and you are getting a mid tier hardtail. Insane.
Your trails are mud and wet roots. Tough riding. Have you ridden Santa Cruz?
An Absolute RipOff....For that money ill have a Yeti SB.....
Or a canyon spectral cfr 9.0, the best bike in the spectral line, and save a grand.
Or Yeti ARC!