The Problem with Sonic the Hedgehog 1
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- čas přidán 25. 11. 2022
- Sonic 1 isn't a bad game. I just have some problems with it.
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Background music is from Sonic the Hedgehog. - Hry
Note: At the end of this, I say there will be more sonic videos in the upcoming days. That's because I originally planned to post this one before the Sonic boost videos, but decided to hold it off till later. Either way, I'll still likely make a video on Fronters' boost gameplay - but that won't be until after this month of videos is over. Basically, this is the last Sonic video of the month - but there will still be more coming a little bit later.
Either way, thanks for watching! Hope you enjoyed it :)
I was going to comment a prediction that lowvember was building towards a frontier review on the 30th but guess this proves otherwise.
On a slightly separate note, I’m still hoping to get a Naussicaa comparison series started in lowvember.
very interested to see what you'll think of Frontiers after the forces level design review
The game basically has 2 different types of levels, open speed levels, and more traditional platformer levels, at least what was considered by that at the time the game was made. A trend that kind of still exists if you think about it within Sonic.
That's basically Generations summed up. Modern 3d stages are maybe the best the boost system got and Classic 2d stages are what is considered traditional platforming for this franchise
@@zeroattentiongaming820 though classic 2d was hella fun
The spin dash by itself might single handedly be one of the greatest additions to a sequel in the history of video games.
It immediately aged Sonic 1 backwards once 2 came out with the ability to hit top speed quickly and relatively safely
As Spring Yard zone tells you, "COPE".
The spin dash casualised Sonic beyond return. Sonic 1 is the only mainline game where speed and momentum is earned, not spoonfed
I always thought it was crazy how Green Hill and Starlight were the only good levels in the entire game
I liked Spring Yard Zone too
And spring yard
@@wyattm6782 I was just thinking on it. I think the game fools us into thinking Spring Yard is fun because it comes right after Marble Zone, a stage that really limits your speed and movement options. I think that's also the case for Starlight since it comes right after Labyrinth Zone, the worst stage in the entire game. I was also fooled and just now realized it
@@Mitzaaaay you mean you don't like starlight any more
@@hamzamohamed6774 yeaaah. Had a crack at it recently. Starlight is just okay to me now
I have been enjoying all the Sonic related content for sure, but have been pleasantly surprised by the other videos you have put out and how much you can convey within such a short amount of time. Good stuff and looking forward to how you finish out November.
counterpoint to labyrinth zone: i used to struggle with labyrinth the most as well, but i think ive gotten good enough at it that slowing down is very rare. i very rarely have to stop for air and its only when i mess up or get hurt, and in fact i finish each act in about a minute... tho i admit, it can be very overwhelming at first before you get used to how sonic controls underwater...
Replaying Sonic 1 goes to show you that the first impression is what matter most, the middle section can be whatever but 1st impression is key and the finale to get people talking about it
Pretty much sums up Sonic Frontiers as well
Wait but Frontiers has a great start, a decent but declining middle, and an incredibly mixed finale. So it kinda ticks the most important boxes, but also not really? Lol
@@seematahir5970 Sonic 1 = Sonic Frontiers
We've finally come to a full circle
My favourite version of Sonic 1 is Classic Heroes, specifically with Team Chaotix. Vector climbing walls and shooting himself on multiple directions reduces much of the boredom and frustration in the slower levels. Though it says a lot about how "fun" they are when they're most enjoyable with a gameplay style that borders on saying goodbye to challenge.
Marble zone was originally going to be a late game level. It should have been.
But then we would've gotten Labyrinth as the second zone so we would be even worse
Marble and Labyrinth shouldn't have been in the game to begin with. Making slow levels in a game that encourages speed is bad design.
@@SonicTheCutehog Or maybe they could have simply made those zones a bit faster? Just like how Mania took mediocre zones and improved upon them.
Unless you want 18 Green Hill acts, that is. Both options would have been games with better level design than the actual Sonic 1 I guess, lol
@@TelPhi_ What zones did Mania make significantly better lol. The only one I can think of is Metallic Madness and maybe Flying Battery. I appreciate that Mania expanded a lot of older zones in the second acts, but none of them were really all that mediocre to begin with. Some levels like Hydrocity are arguably worse with the bullshit bubble segments that completley kill the pace, or the really cumbersome bosses like the mean bean callback or the OOZ Act 2 boss.
Also, a game entirely comprised of Green Hill-esque stages would kind of be a complete nightmare. You would basically have CD, except without any of the things that make CD good. Having massive levels back-to-back really fucks with the pacing of the game, which is something Mania understands.
@@SonicTheCutehog Slow zones? SImply speedrun better, Sonic was inspired by Mario speedrunning after all
I recall the developers originally saying the reason the levels in this game are so back and forth slow and fast is because they wanted players to get a Breath of relief after all the fast gameplay, in retrospect it wasn't the best idea but that's at least some of the explaination on why Sonic 1 is so Back and Forth
It's why I like it better than the other 2D games.
What's funny is that i played Sonic 1 after I played Sonic 2 and I love them both equally for the way the levels feel like exploration is the key.
Despite Sonic's whole thing being "go fast" i have always enjoyed the games more and engaged with them better when I'm trying to go slow. When I'm carefully exploring every inch of a stage for every last ring.
It also helps that I do not, and never have, and never will play games to become skilled at the game. I play them to have fun at my own slow pace and to enjoy the artwork of the worlds.
I have spent hours of real world time just holding up and staring at the backgrounds of Spring Yard, Star Light, Green Hill, Scrap Brain, Chemical Plant, Casino Night and many more in many other games.
Just sitting there jamming to the music loop and staring at the backgrounds and if the backgrounds are animated I don't pause the game, I just let it run and let it cost me a life.
But that's me. And I'm weird.
3:07 except that there is only ONE mandatory block/platform ride in the entire zone. You can run back to build up speed and jump across the blocks provided to make it across really quickly. Weird how every sonic 1 review misses this and always uses the footage at 3:47 to complain about "how slow Marble Zone is".
I've always felt Sonic 1's non-"organic" (Green Hill, debatably Labyrinth) zones were out of place for much of Sonic. More subdued colours, less New Jack Swing/Jazzy/Electronic elements, so even its level elements lack it. This video actually has me think the 8-bit game actually eases into the complex balance better than the 16-bit one, since Bridge and Jungle ease into the worlds.
I actually think CD is a way-better designed Sonic 1.
Yeah !
See I hate sonic 1 with a burning passion in my heart, I think it's the worst game that I've played so far cause of the waiting, labyrinth, scrap brain, spring yard is boring, starlight then goes for some reason way shorter then green hill. Cd is obviously better then sonic 1 but not that high a bar. I mean all the zones feel actually fun and not completely garbage but it still has its bs like spikes at random points and really weird lvl design but still not as bad as sonic 1. For the classic I believe it goes from horseshit to mid to good to amazing
That “skill floor” gag in Labyrinth was pretty clever lol.
Thanks! Cool to see you here. I watched your videos a few years ago, and your Re:Zero video was particularly fantastic :)
@@Lowart - Wow, that’s an awesome surprise! I’m actually working on a very, very, very ambitious video project on Sonic at the moment. I hope you’ll check it out when it’s done. Great stuff 👍
i literally just found your channel and subscribed, and then you uploaded! as a huge sonic and spiderman fan, your channel is perfect :)
I'm glad to see this series of Sonic games' reviews, and I'm specially happy to see you tackling the classic games too! Cheers!
Great and interesting video, highly underrated and can’t wait to see more of this!
Marble Zone never bothered me, the acts are still only like 1-2 minutes long. Now yes Labyrinth Zone sucks.
I think the goal of Sonic 1 was less about creating an organic difficulty curve and more about testing the different facets of Sonic's control and how he interacts with different kinds of level design. In that sense it's a more of a tech demo than an actual game, which makes sense given how experimental it was and that it was the first of its kind.
And even then, there are definitely ways to manipulate the skill ceiling. Scrap Brain Zone is a level that gets a lot of hate but I personally love it. Unlike Marble, where obstacles appear at predetermined times, Scrap Brain focuses purely on the timed element, and of you are crafty enough with Sonic's movement you can get through certain sets of obstacles faster than a player who's playing it safe. It all feeds back to that core tenant of speedrunning the game was founded on, and I can respect that.
Dude, I love your videos. I've been going through a lot of shit lately, and I just wanted to say thank you for getting me through the month.
Thanks for the support - I hope things get better for you!
I still recall playing Marble Zone for the first time on Sonic 1. It was pretty boring.
I could never get passed Marble Zone, thanks for explaining why.
I LOVE YOUR SONIC VIDEOS MAN, KEEP THEM COMING.
Marble Zone doesn't punish the player for going fast, it teaches the player that Sonic's controls also work with precision platforming (he takes a while to accelerate for a reason) and that mastering the momentum allows you to get through tricky sections faster, basically an introduction to the risk vs reward element that's also part of Sonic's core design. Most of the lava block sections people often complain about can be skipped by using Sonic's momentum properly and timing your jumps right in the platforms above the lava, there's only one section where it's actually mandatory, and while it kinda sucks that this section is mandatory to begin with, it's not the end of the world.
Nice counter, Marble was necessary to teach the player about these things.
But I feel CD did this job way better than the first game. Tidal Tempest>>>>>>>Labryinth
Yeah I'm not saying Marble is a perfect stage or anything like that, I just feel people tend to misunderstand it a lot. Considering how Sonic 1 is paced, I don't think it was a bad move to make Marble the second stage, it gets the player prepared to both the faster and slower stages they'll tackle in the rest of the game.
@@CanalDoRyu Yeah but the slower stages later on (labyrinth zone) suck. It doesn't build up to anything good.
I love Labrynth Zone for this reason as well
Except they don't really work, precision platforming with Slope Physics is a pain.
Having to walk back and forth just to jump across Platforms is annoying asf.
Labyrinth zone is always been my favorite! Never forget sonics funny face as he went down the sliding water slides! 😂❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ good memories for a simpler time!
the dropped frames at 4:49 that keep you from seeing the bubble breath are so unsatisfying 😭
The points you brought up made me think, from the mindset of the player it's: "A sonic level is bad when I can't prove how how better I am than everyone else". If you can run the level back to back with your friend and your times aren't that much different there is a problem :p
Everyone: Green Hill Zone is all about going fast!
Me, who has never played it well enough to go through it fast, ever: Looks the same as the rest of the game to me.
Scrap Brain isn’t nearly as bad with the “Skill floor/ceiling” problem as you kind of made it sound. In Marble Zone, there are sections where you literally have to stand and wait regardless if you’re a first time player or speedrunner. And the only way to significantly improve times in Labyrinth is to know secrets that no one is likely to discover naturally. In Scrap Brain, on the other hand, a first time player will fall into bottomless pits, barely to be able to clear the zone from the bottom path, and run straight into hazards/obstacles. But if you learn how to maneuver Scrap Brain Zone, it is very possible (although good platforming/momentum skills are required) to stay on the top path and to make it past every hazard unharmed. This isn’t quite the same as Green Hill Zone letting you bounce over the entire level with precise timing and momentum, but it does reward skilled players with a better experience. You also have to keep in mind that Green Hill Zone is a wide, open natural environment where Sonic himself is most at home, while the slower levels are ones where Sonic is exploring ancient ruins, or infiltrating Eggman’s base. And this is also certainly a design choice that would become arguably the main crux of future classic Sonic games. It’s not so much that the games want you to get faster on repeat playthroughs, more so that the game wants you to learn the best paths and to have the reflexes and skills to stay on those optimal paths, and then faster times are a natural reward of that goal. Speed is itself the reward, but not the goal
Bruh you're just shovelling out this quality content holy shit.
As someone who doesn't rwally play video games all that much I've been finding thiw sonic analysis fascinating~
My favorite classic game is sonic 3 even though people like sonic 2 the most
Same - though I think now Sonic 3 & Knuckles might have grown in popularity. Hard to say though
@@Lowart
Sonic 3 is probably my favourite video game ever made, and Sonic 2 is in my Top 20. Some of the best video game sequels period.
I assume the devs wanted to have contrast from the speed through levels with the slower ones to make you enjoy them even more. I love metal, but sometimes the break ups in a song , the absence of music, gives impact to a finish.
I'm going to miss these daily videos
0:12 My Holy Grail of game deign!
I've never noticed this problem with Sonic 1 as I enjoyed all the levels, but I really noticed this with Sonic 2 -- in that I find myself slogging through the levels I hate and blasting through the levels I like. And I enjoy only three levels in Sonic 2 -- Emerald Hill, Chemical Plant, and Aquatic Ruin. Yet I've only heard good things about Sonic 2 and negative things about Sonic 1. I'd be interested in watching you go into depth about Sonic 2 as well so I can understand this a bit better.
It’s very very hard to navigate! The levels are very short but seriously you can lose all your rings by one enemy hitting you. Then the spikes! Sonic honestly is still hard after all these years 😂
Maybe Marble Zone should have been right before Scrap Brain.
This video brings up one of my biggest issues in any sonic-level design, waiting obstacles should NEVER be a thing in Sonic. In other games sure whatever, but in Sonic you need to be moving or at least have the option of movement. Even if I hit a dead end or I need to break momentum in one direction to go another I should never be trapped on a moving platform or an elevator, its contrary to the most basic thing about sonic. I think that's the reason Green Hill Zone and the other levels like it were always my favorites as a kid. Just like you explained I started slowly playing it like Mario or any other platformer, but slowly I found the routes, and learned the techniques, and eventually, I was challenging myself for better times just because it was fun. Sonic shines when your moving. I can not count the times I replayed Green Hill-style levels in classic sonic games, but some of the other levels I've only beaten when I had to play them. As for the excuse that it teaches you the patience, I'm not sure I agree with that. As stated low-level players are still forced to learn patience even in green hill zone. When I first played sonic at 5 years old I died all the time to missing jumps, landing on spikes, timing platform jumps wrong, etc. But having the option of higher level, speed, plays should be an option. If I wanted a game of waiting for platforms I wouldn't be playing sonic.
I made a hack years ago that fixes/improves this stuff for the most part (within the limitations of the editor used and keeping the level design as authentic as possible)
3:40 small part of a single act from that zone, not really representative. And it's just the limiting level design of certain parts, not skill ceiling.
What’s the name of your rom hack? I wanna play it! :)
Luv da Flo (and keep da flo for Sonic 2)@@LazyBadnikHoobaDooba
Thank you. I hear a lot of people saying that Sonic aren't fast game, instead you are rewarded for playing skillfully with speed, but its only the case when you have open levels and no platform to wait for.
At first i would disagree about the slower levels being bad but just different. I think marbke garden and labrynth can be fast. But your point about skill ceilings is spot on, and I can see where people ate coming from. Marble Garden does have a couple spots that you have to wait and can't go through much faster. Labrynth zone doesn't have as much of this slow boggy section besides the water itself. I get under a minute on ac1 act 2 and 1:32 for labrynth act 3. I might be in thr minority but Labrynth Zone is one of my favorite zones of all time.
"Sonic the Hedgehog" is the best example of an okay first attempt. It does a lot right and sets a great template that was refreshing for the time, but it also has a lot of rough spots, which only became much more glaring just one sequel later.
Nonetheless, it deserves credit for giving birth to my favourite game series, as well as making consoles relevant in the UK.
This little eight minute analysis is honestly pretty masterful. 2D Sonic level design and its relation to skill, that is what makes or breaks those games (next to physics), and it's not _all that common_ to see someone understand this seemingly so intimately. Great video.
Count me as the weirdo who always loved Labyrinth Zone and Sonic's underwater levels in general. Yes, the water forces you to slow down, but with the added mechanic of needing to get air before you drown, that serves to really up the tension: every second you waste is a second closer to death.
u and me both
please tell me you atleast hate the boss for labyrinth zone and act 3 in general.
I missed the amazing skill floor and skill ceiling drawings throughout the video :/
Liked that little dig at forces doing the opposite problem as Marble Zone.
This game is the reason I decided to get Sega Genesis instead of a Super Nintendo back in 1991 when I was only 7 years old at the time.
3:16 - 3:37 = WOW.
Ive never gotten past Marble zone
Will never experience the rest of the gamr
1. Labyrinth zone act 3
2. Labyrinth zone act 3
3. Labyrinth zone act 3
4. Labyrinth zone act 3
It’s almost as if sonic is a traditional platformer and “speed” just being a nice bonus and not the main focus of the game
Did you forget that Sonic's entire marketing gimmick at the time was "rolling around at the speed of sound"? The advertising wants you to take this game as a blazing fast platformer.
Sonic 2 gladly fixed this
Unpopular: I think Sonic 1 is good game including all the other zones and yes! Including labyrinth zone too.
I’d say taking into account that this was the debut Sonic game, it’s definitely pretty good. Absolutely inferior compared to 2 & 3&K but idk I played all 3 on Sonic’s Classic Collection on DS, and while I see people’s complaints for sure, every level felt different and was a nice mix of different levels with unique settings and design. Even the levels like Marble and Labyrinth. Maybe it’s the music that saves it. Every track is really solid. Not the best Sonic music ever, but solid stuff nonetheless.
Say what you will about Labyrinth Zone, but at least there is tension when you play it, and it's really satisfying to leave the underwater sections! Marble Zone is just boring!
As a huge sonic fan, sonic 1 is the worst game ever to me. Not a bad first start, but nearly every GOOD sonic game made ever since is WAY better than this one
The big problem of Sonic 1 is that it's very swag. 😎
the only issue is the spike bug imo
I honestly cannot see any problem with Sonic 1.
But despite that, this video was well made. I like it.
Dude, almost EVERY Sonic fan HATES Labyrinth Zone.....😆😆
Sonic 1 was definitely a rough start to the series. I think that the second game strived to fix a lot of what the first game did wrong. And the third game definitely took that and ran with it.The final boss and ending are definitely underwhelming, especially with a lack of 1 Chaos Emerald. But hey, it was their first shot at a game, can ya really blame 'em?
Marble zone is the best, great music and it plays great...
Call me a weird, but I personaly played and beat this game like hundreds of time at this point and I personaly still think its fun. For me while I love going fast as Sonic I personaly find it entertaining to just try to beat the game as well as I can through optimizing and at times just bouncing on enemies without hitting the floor. I think the game, even in its worse levels has some nice level design and enemy placement that feel rewarding to go through on repeated play throughs both because of their difficulty and how to pass them more optimally. I dont feel that the idea of the game rewarding you for you knoledge of the level and mechaniches is completely gone past GHZ.
Btw, this is coming from someone who played all the classics games like a billion times. I think I prefer Sonic 1 over 2 these days.
I think Sonic 1 is the best. Sonic's main feature of going fast is not good as it automates the experience too much. Sonic 1 had a good balance between fluid pacing, platforming, and challenge. Sonic 2 and Sonic 3&K are good but they have the problem of automation (although to a much lesser extent than the later games).
i hate how people treat my boy marble zone
marbloe zone
I have the same problem with it
I’m glad somebody else recognizes that Green Hill is the only thing worth salvaging about Sonic 1.
Honestly, Marble zone and Labyrinth zone are my favourite levels in Sonic 1.
The first few mario games weren't perfect either in my opinion but it doesn't get anywhere near as much scrutiny. Also, Marble zone is soooo easy. I never understood people's problem with this.
Actually, old games weren't supposed to be fun for unskilled players, because games were seen as challenges back then like in arcades. Future Sonic titles came out as the industry was shifting focus and thus why they feel better. Sonic 1 is just as good as the other Sonic games, but it had a different context. Skill floors and ceilings were both supposed to be high.
Yeah from what I get makes sense, don't speed through and take your time, or you just spend less time having fun with games you like.
I guess you could say I'm the "first" to comment on a video about the *first* sonic game
Meow
Sonic 1 is better than the other 2D games since it requires skill and momentum without the spin dash. The level design becomes messier in the later games.
Absolute Problem Stupid Sonic Movie!!!
Marble and Labyrinth Zone are vastly improved simply with the addition of the spin dash and drop dash. Marble Zone Act 2 is essentially one of the fastest paced levels in the game when you play it properly and while Zone 1 and 3 still have a bit of waiting around, they're both still much faster. Being in the water in Labyrinth zone is nowhere near as slow when you spin dash or drop dash
I find it funny that people complain about the waiting game, but doesn't that supposed to teach you not to be reckless? There's no speed without slowness.
I personally disagree entirely. Levels like Green Hill and Starlight make Sonic games feel even worse to replay for me as the moment you learn them, there is no actual platforming involved and I have to force myself to go on lower paths, and even then, compared to something like Donkey Kong Country, the game doesn't even bother - enemies are a non-threat and seem to exist solely for speedrunners to abuse, and so are the hazards. Scrap Brain, particularly Act 3, on the other hand, might not offer much potentional for improvement or paths, but it's an engaging platforming level that, while not particularly hard, requires platforming skill from the player and knowing the environment.
Ultimately, I think the later games such as Sonic 3 were hurt really badly by the idea that less platforming and enemies = better, as for non-speedrunner/no damage players, they degrade into encouraging damage boosting, broken mechanics like the insta shield (aka kill bosses with even less effort than before) and levels like Marble Garden or Hydrocity that exist solely to encourage exploration or speedrunning spectacle, which kill all of the fun for me the moment I decide to replay 3. That, ultimately, is probably why I haven't played it for an extremely long time. S1 is a simple game - it goes between two types of levels, making each level work in the grand scheme of things as the levels more focused on the Green Hill level design are way shorter, but it still feels like due to the lack of good bossfights and memorably deadly platforming in most zones, the game doesn't feel like I am even playing it anymore, instead becoming a chore.
I think that a Sonic level/GH-type game that succeeds perfectly is CD, as it allows the player nearly complete freedom in the speeding through type (including even skipping bosses) but also actually focuses on exploration within short, memorable levels without it feeling like a chore. Tidal Tempest might be an almost entirely water level, but going for the generators in it for me is way more fun than skipping water and boring myself through Hydrocity. But personally, I think the best Sonic game is Sonic 2 Game Gear/Master System, simply because it is just a complete platformer and focuses entirely on that. And it has good bosses, which is nice as well.
And come on, platforming with Sonic's controls sucks? He's similar to SMB1 Mario, the slippery part only makes it more fun.
I can already tell you know absolutely nothing about Sonic's game design. Multiple long paragraphs with little substance.
@@fictionalmediabully9830 Or you fail to realize people like Sonic for different reasons.
@@EWOODJ
Liking Sonic for different reasons is fine but this isn't the way to express it. It comes off as subjective preference forced to work like a critical essay with aimless writing. Speaking as someone who has replayed Sonic games a lot, saying the best Sonic game is Sonic 2 on the Master System also implies hypocrisy. It's not an easy game for newcomers due to a lot of trial & error, but once you know every bit of the levels, the majority can be beaten in less than half a minute with not much platforming. Not to dump on that game, I enjoy it a good deal, but the lack of consistent elaboration results in a sloppy, thoughtless opinion piece.
THE ORIGINAL SONIC GAMES ARE NOT FUN!
Bro really don't like anything huh?
Sonic 3 better than sonic 1
In my opinion, this is the most mediocre Sonic game.
Don't you have a problem with everything?
Sonic has been a sub-par series since the first game and it took me decades to realize that. Only after playing them more and trying my damnedest to like them, I realized... Oh these really just aren't that good. I'm prepared for someone with a Sonic avatar to leave an angry reply now.
it's highs are really high but it's lows are REALLY low
Not everyone likes everything. It's fine. Just realize it's subpar to you and you're in the minority. No need to stat your opinion as fact. Same goes for those who love the og trilogy.
@@randomcharacter6501 where's your Sonic avatar lol
Your mom is subpar
@@xenos_n. Skill issue tbh
This is just Gen Z revisionism where Hard equals Problem