Kris is NOT the Knight!!! - Theory and Analysis
Vložit
- čas přidán 20. 10. 2023
- Kris is NOT the knight, debunked with FACTS and LOGIC.
Spookydood’s video:
• In Defense of: KRIS KN...
My knight video:
• I KNOW WHO THE KNIGHT ...
If you like deltarune videos like this one, I have plenty of others and post new ones semi-regularly.
#Deltarune #DeltaruneChapter2 #DeltaruneTheories #KrisDeltarune #DeltaruneKnight #Undertale #UndertaleTheories - Hry
What surprises me is not that the theory of Kris being The Knight exists. What surprises me is that SO many people IMMEDIATELY jump to that conclusion after seeing Kris open a dark fountain even though we were told TEN MINUTES AGO that any Lightner with enough determination could do it.
fr fr like we almost watched Berdly open up a fountain. Did Kris open the 1st dark world? Maybe, maybe not. I am 99% sure they didn't open the second chapter dark world.
I think the reason that Kris opening a fountain provides strong Kris knight evidence is not because to proves they can, it's because it proves they want to. After being told about the roaring, it is very strange to choose to open more fountains, unless one is the Roaring Knight.
@@emilia935Somewhat, but, the way Ralsei says it implies that, so long they close it, it should be fine, so you could argue Kris is running on the assumption that, so long as they seal the fountain at the end of the day, it'll all be fine and the Roaring doesnt happen
@@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard Absolutely, there are ways to explain this. I don't think Kris is the knight. I just don't think we should throw this out as worthless, when if it was the only piece of evidence we had, it would be quite strong.
I would also ask why Kris opens a fountain even after the Snowgrave Route? I would assume that he would have hated what he was forced to do to Noelle, and would have a strong desire to avoid that happening again.
well the queen DID go on a spiel about the knights BLADE opening the fountain, their hand reaching and so on and forth, while giving clear visual indication that this is what Chris does at the end of chapter two, using his knife.
I feel the "Noelle would be too scared" argument is a bit weak.
First, Kris and Susie were hesitant, but they still entered the room. They thought flipping the light switch would solve it because when confronted with something unfamiliar, people sometimes try to make sense of it by likening it to something understandable.
Secondly, and more importantly, Berdly is absolutely boneheaded enough to just walk in there. I can imagine the scene going something like this:
Berdly: Fear not Noelle, for though you may be too meek to enter the unlit room, I, Berdley, the smartest student in the school, am not frightened by superstitions of ghosts in the dark.
Noelle: Aren't your neighbors ghosts?
Berdly: I shall now enlighten the room like how I am enlightened!
Noelle: Berdly wait, I think there's more to it than that!
(she then follows him into the room, and the rest of the game ensues)
Definitely a possible scenario character-wise lol. But... would they not remember that? Darkness billowing out of a room surprisingly and the weird non-euclidian geometry within? Kris and Susie remembered going into the closet for the first time and all the darkness shenanigans that went on beforehand, why wouldn't they?
There's an argument to be made that they do remember, but never talk about it during the cyber world adventure, and then at the end of the chapter chock it up to being part of their dream. That makes enough sense but... in that case they would have to ignore their lack of memory of how they actually got into the computer lab, still causing a contradiction. Berdly is an idiot, but he's also a stickler for details. If he remembered all of that would he really go along with the dream talk? Would he not say something like
"But Noelle! Don't you remember my bravery? I charged into the darkness like a true knight in glow in the dark armor!"
Again, it's entirely possible you're right, but it relies on neither Noelle or Berdly ever thinking about what happened before they passed out, instead of them just studying, the lights go out, and they're in the dark world/a dream.
It is simple . The Dark World was made the Night before. So, the Computer room just looks like a Dark Room. And then during the Day, Berdly and Noelle would simply be walking into a Dark Room. No Smoke. Just Darkness.
Also, Berdly told Noelle he liked Susie, and she strangled the crap out of him, but if it is a dream, then he didn't actually say that. A useful Narrative for his Ego. @@guiltyflygon
I think how the Chapter 2 dark world was formed can mean one of two things; Absolutely nothing, because its not important and the characters don't find the need to mention it, or it could be a key piece of evidence. Until we see how Kris acts in chapters three and four (now coming even sooner!) and how others like Toriel react to being woken up in a dark world versus entering one like Kris and Susie did in chapter 1, we can't say for sure if chapter 2's dark world is meant to be overlooked and treated as a unimportant as the characters do, or if its actually meant to have something deeper to it and not just be a handwave (albeit not that lazy of one, as it actively says someone could have been hiding in the closet and made the dark world behind Berdly and Noelle, who are coincidentally facing away from that very same closet when they wake up...)
I tend to believe that they could get into the room, if if it's dark. Berdly is that type of person that would go inside of the dark room to find the switch. Noelle might go along him because he's leading the path.
However, how would both of them be sitting at the table after coming back from the Dark World? Would they go into the dark room, find no switches, sit at the table and study using books and notebooks with no light? I find that too hard to believe.
One can say that they could have moved while asleep as Kris and Susie did in chapter one, but I think it would be such a big coincidence that they would sit at the table while moving, also Susie and Kris were at the entrance of the computer lab when they went back from the Dark World. It seems to me that they were more likely to be sitting while studying, without the Dark World yet, than moving from somewhere in the room to sit perfectly in the chairs next to the table.
Therefore, I don't believe that there was a Dark World in the computer lab when Noelle and Berdly enteredd the room.
Simple. When a Lightner moves in the Dark World, they move location in the Light World. See Chapter One where Kris and Susie go into Closet but end up in the side room where the Card Kingdom was.
And they don't sit down , they fall on top of the Table. Like they appeared at the table, and fell on it.@@marcelolupatini5553
Objection! The defense is using strong language such as "impossible" and "plothole" in an attempt to lead this court, your honor.
The defense's case hinges on the assumption that, once a Dark Fountain is sealed, one would appear in the exact same same spot they were before.
This assumption is false. Kris and Susie weren't transported back to the closet when the Card Kingdom Fountain was sealed. And they didn't appear at the door when the Cyber World Fountain was sealed either.
Furtermore, the defense's proposed timeline of events does not match reality. To prove that, I'd like to call in a new witness:
Plug Girl: "Recently, something called 'Internet' is having an 'outage'. Some say it was the secret to Queen's know-how. Since then, it seems like she's become quite extreme..."
According to this witness, Queen's change in behavior coincided with the internet outage.
According to our previous witnesses, Queen's change in behavior coincided with the Dark Fountain being created.
If we put these two testimonies together, it reveals that the Dark Fountain being made coincided with the internet outage.
I have a written affidavit from a teacher in the local school, stating that the internet was already out at the early hours of the previous night.
This contradiction exposes the defense's proposed timeline as the conjecture it really is.
This crime happened in the previous night, and even the defense admits the defendant's alibi for that time cannot be verified.
Subjective addition. It is very likely the Dark Fountain creation is actually what knocked out the Internet. Which the Knight probably knew would happen, thus making the Queen the way she is.
Further, that would direct Noelle and Berdly actions because now, they cannot do their assignment at their own houses and sent it. They have to go to the computer lab to print it there. Plus, they won't be able to stay separate physically, and , like, Skype.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 This is incorrect. Queen says in her battle that the town's internet disappeared, then the Knight created the Fountain.
I am so sorry. It was a nice theory.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 Well... I guess the Knight may still have sabotaged the internet on purpose, but not as a result of the Fountain.
Perhaps. I get the feeling that if Queen still had access to the "Internet" , she might not be a proper Boss for this world. Because the Lightners can no longer "click to feel pleasure" and "click to avoid pain" she is given a Motive.
Further , it cuts off continued access to Kris's search history...
@@gabrielrochadasilva3183
And yes, the Fountain doesn't have to directly cause the Internet to go down.
But I would also like to point out that before the Dark Fountain gets made, The Queen is just a laptop. She isn't alive to witness the Internet disappearing, and she isn't aware she "saw" the Fountains creation until she watches the video her body made before she started existing.
So, she is literally guessing the timing of events, like she is literally guessing/"calculating" most of the things she does..
However, this all still means Both the Dark Fountain and the Queen were made by the Knight the Night before. And the Implication is the Knight cut off the Internet specifically to give Queen her Villainous motive (No Internet means Queen will speculate expanding the Dark World can replace the Internet for Lightners, making her Dangerous)@@gabrielrochadasilva3183
6:16 That argument feels a bit silly..
We know from chapter one that it is possible to move in the real world while you are in the dark world (moving from the storage closet to the unused classroom).
but then there is no explanation about the open books they were reading, since they close them its probably because they did sit there and opened them and leaved them on the table
I dont think that Noelle and Berdly's positions really matter when it comes to this argument. It can be assumed that in a room with a dark fountain in it, the room briefly becomes a void, just like we see in chapter 1. Its likely that all the walls disappear, which means it's likely all the tables disappear too. If the tables are gone, its very believable to think that Noelle and Berdly walked in, tried to find a light switch, but couldn't. Then they thought "maybe its on the back of the wall?" Attempted to walk back there, but eventually finally fell into the dark world, dropping their books on the ground where the table would be. Nothing about that scenario seems like a strech to me. When they woke up, they and their books were placed right where it would make sense for them to be, just like Kris and Susie in both chapter 1 and 2. Noelle and Berdly.
Noelle and Berdly laying down on the table with their books down is very weak evidence at best, and at worst, maybe even disproves the idea that the dark fountain was created with them inside. We see that making a dark fountain takes a few seconds, and unless Kris has some supernatural powers able to withstand the pouring darkness, you are fully able to walk around before the darkness resches you. That is PLENTY of time for Noelle and Berdly to walk out of the room.
You are telling me, that some random guy jumped out of the closet, violently stabbed the earth and sent a bright explosion directly into the pupils of two kids, and they didnt freak out?? They just sat politely in their seats and immediately fell asleep? I find it much more likely that they would have ran away screaming, or that they would have at least some sort of vague memory of seeing the knight.
I feel like Kris could have easily had enough energy to make it to the library during the night. We see them chuck their heart at the birdcage with more power than a baseball pitcher and then they jump through their bathroom window with the finesse of a ballerina. Getting in and out of the lab seems like a minor enough detail to be ignored, and its likely that the town is so safe that many people just leave their doors unlocked. It's definitely got that vibe.
Not to mention, the knight hiding in the closet... Just feels so juvenile. Like its some (presumably grown man) hiding in a closet for two random kids to arrive and freak them out. Doesn't feel like something the "Roaring Knight" would be seen doing unless they needed Noelle and Berdly, which I doubt they did.
15:28 I would like to point out that falling asleep while teaching is out of character for Berdly and Noel. They are both quite diligent students, especially Berdly, who would not fall asleep while studying. Noel, on the other hand, knows that Susie will be coming to the library soon to study with them, so she should be all tense.
the only 2 reasons they would be asleep would be that the Knight put them to sleep before creating the dark world (at which they would be asleep in the dark world).
or as it's suggested (somewhere i don't know) Ralsei put them to sleep to make Susies claim about it being a dream more legit
@@theprinceofawesomeness We can't deny or approve your first theory, but I can argue with the second one. After beating snowgrave Noel wakes up in the computers room, just like in the normal rout, but this time Ralsei wasn't there, but he was with the queen at all time, and Noel was with us while we were closing a fountain. This prooves that you fall asleep after leaving the dark world, or at least that it wasn't Ralsei's work.
@@Plackowicz my 1st wasn't a theory but just a bat shit insane statement for the argument that the Knight was creating the fountain with them in the room. the other is just something that i heard as to explain why Noelle and Berdly are asleep.
FACT: after the dark world stops excising Berdly and Noelle is asleep, nether Susie nor Kris is a sleep in ether chapter after the fountains are closed.
Speculation: ether Susie and Kris is Special and don't fall asleep or someone put Berdly and Noelle to sleep
@@Plackowicz Noelle(not Noel) was implictly in her bed at the end of Snowgrave. Susie specifically went to go check on her. She got up when Kris called her, but she was specifically in a trance or trance-like state. Hence why she was able to hear them at all, despite the distance between them.
@@Missingno_Miner What are u talking about? Noelle freezed Spamton, Kris closed the dark fountain, everyone except Berdly wakes up in the Computers room. At the end of the rout, maybe, but it does't matter in this discussion.
7:41 it's quite easy to explain. That's right, Noel wouldn't have entered such a room alone, but you have to remember that Berdly was with her. It probably looked like this:
They open the door and see darkness. Noel senses that something is wrong and wants to back out, but Berdly, seeing her fear, begins to rationalize the situation and play the hero (even if he is concerned himself), because his ego will not allow him to do otherwise. Noel, under pressure from her friend, enters the room with him, looking for the light switch, and they fall into the Dark World.
Yeah that's definitely a weak point in my theory. I think she could probably succumb to peer pressure on Berdly's and go in the library.
Technically, yeah, but if they just entered Dark World after it's been created why would they end up in sitting positions?
@@TheSoulCalledZuzia Toby fox probably just didn't foresee that people would make judgments by looking at whether characters were sitting or standing.
@@Plackowicz Maybe, but it feels kinda odd for me. Maybe its just because I care for such details
@@PlackowiczAgain another ‘it’s a plot hole’ theory by saying he just didn’t expect people to check. Okay my theory is that Kris I actually Jesus, proof? It’s a plot hole there you go
10/10 profile picture
I don't think kris is the knight, but i didn't think "a large person could easily fit inside here" was a reference to the knight. I thought it was the place where they would hide the body of berdly after the snowgrave route the first time i saw it.
Does Berdly look like a large person to you? He’s a bird and kris isn’t large
@@redbush5483 It was my first impression. Second thought was that it could fit the knight (papyrus could easily fit there) but there is an alternative explanation for why that text is there
I think it's in reference to GIGA Queen, but I like your idea that Papyrus could fit there
Yeah, that sentence it does not confirm that the Knight was in there. I'd like to add that also does not confirm that Kris hid Berdly in there. It just shows possibilities to the player.
@@redbush5483I think the wording messes with people a lot on this one. Just because a large person could fit inside doesn’t mean it’s like a Lego brick specifically made to be a perfect match for a large person. If someone who’s 6’5 could fit in a closet like a glove, I can DEFINITELY fit in the same closet, y’know?
(Respectfully)
I really feel that Noelle and Birdly sitting like that is just video game logic / the fact we don’t know how exactly fountains function. Like they could have been doing anything after the fountain closed. Its not a plot hole- its just inconsequential to the story so the writers decided “oh Noelle thinks its a dream so she wakes up as if she was napping”. If they were just all standing in a circle together it would be weird if Noelle was like “oh haha I just dreamt while standing up”. Ultimately there is no rule that says when a fountain closes you must be in some position.
~
Either way I’d like to clarify I enjoyed the video. I just feel that similar to Spookydude’s video, any theory claiming Kris *CANT* be the knight isn’t actually that solid. I think its totally possible that they aren’t, but as of now they are the simplest answer that the average non-theorist player can foresee.
I went on a ramble about this in other videos but writers aren’t writing for theorists- they’re writing for the average audience. Kris COULD totally be a red herring, but as of now hard evidence of this being a red herring is… lacking. There’s only minor points that make it possible.
I know this is a nitpick, but I'm pretty sure Toby Fox is the only writer lol
@@catdownthestreet as a fellow indie developer,
Toby may be the writer but it’s highly unlikely he doesnt at least bounce ideas off friends.
If he does work alone for the story then honestly just. Wow thats gutsy lol
@@ABDERAMBL yeah, i wasn't ruling that out lol. It's just pretty clear that Toby is the main writer.
@@ABDERAMBL Isn't he basing the entire game off of a fever dream?
Also, about the 'Kris is Knight' theory, there was actually a scrapped intro sequence in which Team Friendship would walk up a staircase, past shadowed bosses. At the end of the staircase, they'd confront the Knight. So, unless there's somehow two Krisses in that intro sequence (which I don't find likely), I think it rules out any of Team Friendship.
@@dominickeijzer5844 1. It could easily be that the knight appearing is a metaphor- intros are rarely based in reality.
2. No- he specifically said he dreamt the ending of Deltarune. Even then i doubt his brain invented every single charachter in that instance it was probably just the vague premise lol
I recently heard others agree with this take so I’m more inclined to share it: I don’t think the Knight’s identity is necessarily supposed to be a mysterious whodunnit situation. It would be up Toby’s alley to make the Knight a recognizable character that excites people, but I think, given how little we know about the Knight’s identity and the way that we aren’t necessarily encouraged to figure out who exactly the Knight is by the game, it’s completely possible that the Knight is a completely original character or one we haven’t been formally introduced to.
You've quickly become my favorite deltarune theorist, love your content.
13:37 It was never established that when you get out of a Dark Fountain you have to be in the place you were when you entered it. For example: Kris and Susie entered Ralsei's Dark Fountain, but then they woke up in the other room with the closet and chess stuff.
that's because once they entered the Gold doors to the right of Ralsei's Dark fountain, they entered that Dark world classroom. There's a door leading to the closet in the unused classroom. It wouldn't make sense to basically teleport into Ralsei's Dark fountain after the Classroom fountain closed, since they aren't in the closet anymore.
@@Natalie-nv5iq yes I know, that's literally my point, they don't wake up from the dark fountain in the same position as they enter, exactly like it may have happened with Noelle and Berdeley.
@@loubaxo9339
But those are completely different circumstances? One involves moving from one dark world to another, and the other involves just one dark fountain.
@@tobiasbayer4866 Still, there's nothing indicating one will wake up from the Dark World in the same position as when it entered it.
@@loubaxo9339
There also isnt any evidence that you randomly move somewhere else and there definitely isnt any evidence that entering a dark world takes the things you are carrying and places them somewhere in the room. Infact its the opposite. You keep all of the objects you enter with with you.
Nevermind the fact that the cyber world dark fountain is the only one we have actually seen the exiting process of. When Kris and Susie existed the unused classroom fountain it was dark and they stumbled around. No Idea where they appeared.
All of the circumstantial evidence points to you exiting the dark world where you entered it.
one thing that always gets me is how many people seem to ignore or not know about "Last Thursday-ism" while I think that's the most crucial part to these timeline discrepancies. How can Sweet Cap'n Cakes have had a relationship with Queen BEFORE their world was created? Since Queen says the world was created TODAY and Sweet and the gang talk about how she was different before the knight showed up.
Last Thursdayism is the belief that all of your thoughts, memories, relationships, and your entire world were created on Last Thursday, and there's no way to disprove that. I think that's the central concept in the dark worlds. The relationships between Spamton, Mike, Jevil, Queen, Cakes, all the darkners, it's all created retroactively stretching from before the Dark world began.
I can see where you’re coming from with this, but there are a few major holes in this idea: Darkners from other Dark Worlds knowing about each other from before their fountains were opened despite the immense distance between them and the objects that they're based on seemingly having no connection that could be used to create retroactive memories (i.e. King and Queen, Spamton and Jevil, and Tasque Manager recognizing Jevil if you have the Devilsknife or Jevilstail equipped when you fight her), Gaster being capable of contacting the secret bosses and driving them insane in the first place, and a good chunk of the lore revealed to us in the Spamton Sweepstakes.
I also don't support the Last Thursdayism theory for a very good reason - it would be incredibly lame. It would mean that every Darkner's backstory is fake and didn't really happen, which robs all of them of any meaning. Feel sad for Spamton's tragic past? Don't be, because none of that ever happened! I think the best solution is to think that Dark Worlds have *some* kind of existence prior to the Fountains opening, and that the Dark Worlds function as something kinda like a "lower level" of reality that happens to be based on Light World objects somehow. To be honest, the whole thing is really messy and confusing because Toby seems to be trying to imply that they both do and don't pre-exist the creation of the Fountains. Hopefully he'll clear it up at some point in the future, but if not, I think we should go with the assumption that's most interesting.
@@CantusTropus Yes, this exactly! I agree with your reasoning wholeheartedly, I was just focused on trying to debunk it from a logistical standpoint.
From the very beginning I’ve always seen it as a sort of meta-commentary on the relationship of reality and fiction and the layers between them; Darkners are real people with their own thoughts, feelings, and relationships in the Dark World but are merely inanimate objects in the Light World prior to the Fountains opening, just like how the characters of UTDR are real people with their own thoughts, feelings, and relationships in their respective games but are merely pixels on a screen to us players. However, the Dark World can affect the Light World like how the Light World can affect the Dark World, and UTDR can affect us and Toby Fox like how we and Toby Fox can affect UTDR.
This is what I feel could possibly be the Knight’s motive or at least one of their motives (wanting the Darkners to exist in the Light World as well and getting other people to see that they’re real people), what most likely drove the secret bosses insane (finding out that they and everything and everyone around them is just a bunch of inanimate objects in a different layer of reality and that they aren’t considered “real” outside of the Dark World), and what I think will ultimately tie into the full game’s central theme and endgame.
“Why do you care so much about whether this world lives or dies? It’s not your reality, its continued existence or complete destruction won’t affect your world in any meaningful way.”
“It doesn’t matter if it’s the ‘real’ world to me or not. It’s the real world for the people who live in it, and that alone makes it worth saving.”
Kris doesn't move *that* slowly without the Soul. They're able to get out of the window, slash the tires on Tori's car, and jump back through the window in a little over a minute. That's not fast, but it's not super slow either. I can absolutely believe that Kris is able to make it to the Library and back over the course of a night, even in this state. Hometown is a tiny rural town with no crime, plus the Library has almost nothing of value except the Laptop (all the computers are ancient), so it's quite probable that they don't bother to lock the Library at night (as a matter of fact, not locking the door at night isn't that rare in peaceful rural areas even in real life, it was common in much of the USA before the 70s). If that's true, Kris wouldn't need to break in at all, so there'd be no need to hide evidence of a break-in. Kris is also REALLY tired the next day (Alphys says they slept through the entire schoolday instead of just the start of it as usual).
I also believe that Kris acts more inebriated around the SOUL specifically because they want US to believe they are weak without us.
when kris makes the fountain in chapter 2 the sound that plays is literally called !snd_fountain_make" but my theory is that the knight is a whole new character and not anyone from hometown (maybe dess but she is missing)
Counterarguments from the prosecutor:
Even though you did mention the narration text when interacting with the TV, you didn't mention how a lot of people (including myself) use it as evidence for Knight Kris.
Chapter 1 - "It's the TV. Doesn't even seem to be plugged in anymore."
Chapter 2 - "It's the TV. Seems to be plugged in, but it's dusty."
The only person who could've reasonably been the one to plug in the TV is Kris. And since they turn it on right before making the fountain, this suggests they knew how to make fountains PRIOR to Queen's explanation. And to address your claim that Kris plugged in the TV to watch it while eating the pie, I'd like to emphasize the fact that the lines say the TV is dusty, and that it "doesn't seem to be plugged in *anymore,"* hinting that it hasn't been used in a while. The fact that Kris plugged in the TV for the first time in AGES clearly means something deeper. There's also the noteworthy sink dialogue:
"It is not yet time to wash your hands."
"This is the kitchen sink. You could wash your hands here. But, isn't the sink in the bathroom better?"
If these lines were simply meant to be foreshadowing, why word them so suspiciously? Also, if Kris was just innocently going to eat the pie & watch TV, why depict them as so malicious? Them pulling out a knife while maniacally smiling at the camera doesn't exactly scream "poor innocent kid" to me.
Not to mention how literally *no one other than Kris* has legitimate in-game evidence supporting them being the Knight. Except maybe Alvin, but that's debatable.
While your argument about the fact that Kris making a fountain doesn't prove their guilt makes sense in the *real world,* you have to remember that this is a *story.* You must look at this from a writing perspective. The player literally just learned how the Knight makes dark fountains, only to show Kris doing the exact thing described soon after. No one, other than theorists, would have any reason to believe the Knight is anyone but Kris after this setup & payoff. Again, in the real world, you're absolutely right. But purely from the perspective of this being a story being told with intent, there's a clear message being sent here.
Queen's statement that any lightner could create a fountain is doubtful, considering she says that she was just making assumptions based on the Knight's actions. Berdly may have been unsuccessful in creating his fountain, and Ralsei stopped him because, even though he knew monsters can't make fountains, he didn't want to take the risk of letting Berdly do it anyway given what's at stake.
We don't really know how mobile Kris is without the soul. Sure, they're shown to struggle, but the times we actually get to see them without their soul, ESPECIALLY at the end of Chapter 1, are very short. This argument is based entirely on the assumption that Kris cannot survive without the soul for as long as it takes to open the Cyber World fountain, which we can't know for a fact.
Pretty much the only thing supporting the "Knight made the fountain while Noelle & Berdly were inside" argument is their position when the fountain is sealed. However, consider Kris & Susie's positions. Despite entering the dark world through the entrance to the lab, after the fountain is sealed, they're shown at the opposite end of the table. A good few feet away from where they entered the room. And no, the jump doesn't count, since if it did, they would also be facing the entrance to the room, as they were shown to rotate 180 degrees. This disproves the assumption that lightners wake up in the same place they entered the room after the fountain is sealed.
Also, for Noelle not being willing to enter a dark room... consider Berdly. He could've convinced Noelle to come in at the same time with him similar to what Susie did. I'd also like to mention how it's very strange to claim that Noelle & Berdly fell asleep while studying. If Noelle truly was tired enough to fall asleep within the literal couple of minutes between her interaction with Susie & us finding the computer lab fountain, she would not have acted as energetic as she did when she was talking with Susie. Not to mention how out-of-character it would be for nerds like Noelle & Berdly to suddenly fall asleep while studying.
As for the closet, there are alternate explanations to this. It could be a gag in reference to Giga Queen. It could also be a hint that Kris hides Berdly's body in the closet post-Snowgrave, which is what I personally believe. And before anyone says anything, I'll address them:
*"It specifies a large person, and Berdly isn't large at all!"*
The fact that it specifies a large person has less to do with hinting that a large person has been in there, but more a statement of convenience. Like, "Oh, how convenient that a large person could easily fit in here, and thus very easy to stuff Berdly in here."
*"Why would this line appear in the normal route, then?"*
The normal route shouldn't totally be banned from including foreshadowing to the weird route. Take a look at Lancer's line when Noelle joins your party. He says "Can we make them a bad guy?" when talking about Noelle. This is simultaneously a reference to Lancer's obsession with being & making people bad guys, while also subtle foreshadowing to Snowgrave. While that is a bit debatable, my point still stands that weird route foreshadowing shouldn't totally be disregarded as a possibility. The closet line is a one-off, seemingly meaningless line that suddenly gets re-contextualized in the weird route.
I think it's entirely possible that Ralsei just failed to sense the fountain until he joined us in the Cyber World. I mean, think about what Ralsei was doing all this time. He was busy setting up rooms for Kris, Susie, and Lancer. And just recently, new faces showed up in town. It's very reasonable to assume that Ralsei was too preoccupied to sense the Cyber World fountain. It's also possible he didn't sense the fountain at all, but rather some vague feeling. You admit yourself that it's possible for the fountain not to have been what he sensed.
Queen saying that the Knight created this fountain "Today" makes sense as an argument from a human perspective, since we consider hours like 3 AM "last night." But here's the thing: Queen is a computer. Computers start days at 12 AM. Meaning it's entirely possible that Kris opened the fountain AFTER midnight, but BEFORE dawn.
I also feel you're emphasizing SpookyDood's "let alone a week" line far too much. That's not his point. What he's trying to say is that it'd take more than a measly few minutes for the Sweet Cap'n Cakes to notice Queen's behavior. I personally feel a single night would be more than enough for them to notice Queen's change in behavior, especially when considering the other alternative.
To support this, I'd like to mention that in the Undertale 6th Anniversary livestream, Toby Fox himself confirmed that it was the fountain that corrupted King & changed his behavior, not the Knight. Meaning it's entirely possible that the same thing happened to Queen (especially since she confirmed she was guessing based off the Knight's actions), and thus the Knight did NOT need to enter the dark worlds.
On your first paragraph regarding the framing of Kris in chapter 1: Toby Fox said himself that he wanted Chapter 1 to be an inversion of expectations, he wanted it to feel like Undertale but have your expectations be subverted as the story goes on. Obviously, the ending stinger to chapter 1 with Kris smiling "maliciously" is a red herring that Toby delivers on at the beginning of Chapter 2. It was another subversion of our expectations going into the game proper. Also, what is your "legitimate in-game evidence" that Kris is the knight, because I find that highly objectionable. Even if it were true, don't you think it'd be silly for Toby to show his hand so soon, especially with such large lengths of time between chapters?
The player just learned how to make Dark Fountains but do you know who else just barely did too? KRIS. What evidence do you have that monsters can't make fountains? i don't believe there is any difference between humans and monsters other than humans being, well, human. Don't bring your Undertale assumptions into this game.
Okay now you're just assuming Kris without the soul is an olympic runner when LEGITIMATE IN-GAME EVIDENCE shows that they can't move easily at all. You're starting with the conclusion that Kris is the knight and then scrounging up evidence to support your claim, that is the opposite of how you should approach theories. YOu should always try to tear your own theories down, and only believe them when they stand up to the highest scrutiny.
Regarding their positions upon waking up in the Dark World I actually agree with you. There's an obvious spacial disconnect between the dark world and the light world, not just tied to position but also to state-of-being. While Kris and the gang were in the dark world, I think they were probably asleep in the physical world.
No, you're wrong. It says a a large person can fit inside on both routes, not just Snowgrave. Why would it say that on a route where Berdly isn't even in the room anymore? Lancer's line in the normal route happens before the weird route has started, giving you a chance to find it yourself. What good is foreshadowing a part that you can't even take part in?
Ralsei is a ball of mystery but I'm sus of him.
Okay getting into how queen is a computer and Kris still could've made the fountain blah blah blah this reads like cope. Look into Last Thursday-ism, that'll explain how Sweet and Queen can have a relationship that lasts long enough for him to notice her behavior "changing" when their world is created on the same day.
@@souplife1 The thing is, the strange behavior from Kris happens again at the end of Chapter 2. There's a clear pattern being set up here. It shouldn't all be brushed off as a red herring. What I meant by Kris being the only one who has legitimate evidence for them being the Knight is that every other character people make Knight theories about is based entirely on circumstantial evidence, coincidences/over-analyzation, and/or just pointing out suspicions about them. Kris, being the only one who makes a fountain on screen, as well as the TV narration suggesting they knew how to do so prior to Queen's explanation, is the only character the game is actively associating with the Knight.
And no, I don't think it'd be silly for Toby to reveal the Knight this early. Twists don't have to be revealed towards the end. If it's beneficial to the story, they can be revealed near the beginning. The only reason we have such large lengths of time between chapters is because the game isn't finished yet. There's no reason to assume that Deltarune is meant to be experienced differently from any other game: played all at once. Someone playing the full game wouldn't have time to debate things like we're debating now. The only reason people are doubting Knight Kris is BECAUSE of these long gaps between chapters, which only exist due to the game being unfinished. If Kris really isn't the Knight, that will be confirmed in the future, given how obvious the reveal was at the end of Chapter 2.
Again, I provided my reasons as to why I believe Kris knew how to make fountains prior to Queen's explanation in the original comment, so I'm not gonna repeat myself. Even if I'm wrong in saying monsters can't make fountains, my point still stands about the setup & payoff of the Knight Kris reveal, especially since, like I said, it happens right after the player learns how the Knight makes fountains. Kris making a fountain on screen right after a bunch of Knight exposition should absolutely be taken as hard evidence for them being the Knight, despite many people refusing to do so.
People take Queen saying that any lightner can create a fountain the wrong way. That line isn't there to tell the player that the Knight could be anyone, it's to further explain why she's so bent on forcing Noelle to create a fountain.
I only argued that Kris could be mobile *enough* to open the Cyber World fountain. Where did you get the idea that I suggested they could be as mobile as an olympic runner?
My point is that there's no way to know HOW long they can survive without their soul, so this can't be used as definitive counterevidence.
Yeah, I acknowledged that it appears on both routes. I even gave it an explanation: it's a seemingly meaningless line in the normal route that suddenly gets re-contextualized in the weird route. Like, "Oh, I know what this means now." Like I already said, references to the weird route shouldn't be assumed to be completely banned from appearing in the normal route. The fact that it appears in the normal route could be explained by it foreshadowing a future event ("future" as in when the player is done with the normal route, and goes to play the weird route).
Last Thursday-ism is a good point, but I don't see how pointing out how Queen is a computer & how Kris still could've made the fountain reads like "cope," because those are both true. Queen saying "Today" is another reference to her computer-ness. There are many instances where the game reminds you that Queen is a computer with her references to computer-based things, so it's likely that this is another one of those instances.
I would also like to point out that Kris looks at the Camera when they pull the soul (Us) out in Ep. 1, Which mean they know We play them during the day. Which means Kris has to find ways to make what they do look like "Red Herrings" so you will continue to play them. They need the Power to save and reload to gain the recruits/or power your Soul gives when you seal the fountains they create. If you stop playing because you know how they are manipulating you, it is over.
I would like to present Queen's video of the Dark Fountain being made. Noelle and Berdly aren't in it even though the computer that is Queen was sitting right in front of them. And we see in the chapter 2 ending, the Dark smoke shoots straight up, and it takes a few minutes for the Smoke to fill the room. Which means Noelle and Berdly should be in the video.
Unless.... Noelle and Berdly weren't there when it happened. Queen wasn't in front of them because they weren't there yet. Which means it must have happened the Night before. (The reason this is case is because the Annoying Dog who causes the traffic jam rides into the Dark Fountain, which means it was created before the jam). The Knight opened the laptop, turned it on so Queen would be created, and then created the fountain, similar to the Knight plugging in the TV.
Kris is premediating the setup for the fountains. This would insure nobody could walk in on them , and would insure they could leave the room before the dark fountain areas get engulfed.
This also means is very likely the Knight was in the computer lab itself , not the closet. This is premeditated. No need to hide. After all, Noelle and Berdly aren't there.
Stories are by their nature, abstractions of reality but I think you're removing some important context here. The reason Queen was talking about the knight was because she wanted to create a new dark fountain. The Fun Gang defeat Queen but Noelle, Berdley and especially Susie reflect in earshot of Kris on how good things have come from the creation of the fountains. Ralsei stops them because he thinks it would bring the Roaring. So why can't people assume Kris could have created the chapter 3 fountain because of their experiences in Chapter 1 (Remember Susie only became Kris' friend after Chapter 1's events). We don't assume Berdley is the knight because he tried to create a dark fountain so why should we assume Kris is?
And well, unless Kris can predict the future, this possible motivation can't work with Kris being the knight as they would have no way of knowing how Susie, Noelle or Berdley would react to (or in chapter 2's case if they even knew who would end up inside) the fountain.
Also a more minor thing but a large person ≠ person . Unless Toby was implying Berdley is fat, there's no reason to word it this way if it's meant to imply Berdley being stuffed inside it. For instance Toby Fox could have worded it like this: "It's so big you feel you could close the door shut behind you and no one would know you were inside."
Not to mention that doesn't explain why it's big in the first place from a storytelling standpoint as Toby could have made the closet as big or as small as he liked. Giga Queen is a better explanation but raises a rather different question: If it was in the closet, where is it now?
Other than that though, you make some good points here. I had no idea that the fountain was corrupting the King and not the knight.
I would like to present Queen's video of the Dark Fountain being made. Noelle and Berdly aren't in it even though the computer that is Queen was sitting right in front of them. And we see in the chapter 2 ending, the Dark smoke shoots straight up, and it takes a few minutes for the Smoke to fill the room. Which means Noelle and Berdly should be in the video.
Unless.... Noelle and Berdly weren't there when it happened. Queen wasn't in front of them because they weren't there yet. Which means it must have happened the Night before. (The reason this is case is because the Annoying Dog who causes the traffic jam rides into the Dark Fountain, which means it was created before the jam). The Knight opened the laptop, turned it on so Queen would be created, and then created the fountain, similar to the Knight plugging in the TV.
Kris is premediating the setup for the fountains. This would insure nobody could walk in on them , and would insure they could leave the room before the dark fountain areas get engulfed.
This also means is very likely the Knight was in the computer lab itself , not the closet. This is premeditated. No need to hide. After all, Noelle and Berdly aren't there. But I think the closet space in the general route references the Queen's basement and Spamton NEO suit in the Darkness, as well as the roller coaster.
I still strongly believe that Kris Knight is a big possibility. I'm not 100% Kris Knight convinced; I have my own other theories about who the knight could be, but I don't think that Kris can or should be written off as a possibility. I don't think that the fountain creation timeline disporves the Kris knight theory as much as you claim. Kris creating the dark fountain the night before does not need a plot hole to be plausible. When Susie and Kris enter the closet dark fountain for the first time, there is an invisible floor that they stand on before eventually falling down into the section before castle town. We never see this dark fountain, or any dark fountain entrances act like this again. This to me shows that the properties of dark fountains are not 100% consistent. Not because the entrance of the first dark fountain is a plot hole, but because Toby intended for them to be this way. This beginning section creates tension and leads the story to where it needs to go, which could be the same reason that Berdly and Noelle's books were already on the table. There could have been a dark version of the room that Noelle and Berdly entered and set their stuff on before the floor collapsed and they fell into the dark world, just like Kris and Susie in the first chapter. Or, Toby could have put their books on the table because he needed them to believe that they were both dreaming for the plot to move along smoothly, and it wouldn't be a plot hole because the nature of dark fountains are not completely set in stone. They reflect the will of their creator, so Kris could just not want Noelle and Berdly to know about the dark fountains, so when the dark fountain spit them back out, it could have put them into a situation so that it's believable that they're both dreaming. It's possible to move your position in the light world while moving in the dark world. Kris and Susie move from castle town to the card kingdom completely in the dark world. They enter the closet and wake up in the classroom. I personally think it's more of a stretch to say that Noelle and Berdly both fell asleep in the short amount of time that it takes for Kris and Susie to make it to the library, and were both in a deep enough slumber not to notice a magical fountain being created meters away from them. This would also imply that they entered the fountain at the same time as the Knight. Would the Knight have time to form an entire relationship with the dark world's characters before Queen notices that a sleeping Noelle and Berdly are also there? And Berdly and Noelle aren't woken up by being transferred into the dark world (this could happen, I guess we'll see in chapter 3) ? Also, the Ralsei stuff is inconsistant. He is a liar actress, we know this. He could be lying about everything. The reason he meets them in the computer lab dark world only after they arrive could be because he didn't care until Kris was there. We don't know anything about that sketchy mf yet, so his actions can never really be used as proof, becuase we don't know his real motivations. I think that Knight Kris is a very plausible possibility, and shouldn't be completely written off on minor logical and consistency based defenses in a game with a plot that relies on a magic system that we really do not know much about yet, and most of what we do know about it is from a very untrustworthy character. But, again, I don't even one hundred percent believe in Kris Knight, I just think it's a really interesting theory that shouldn't be written off. This comment ended up being extremely long, I promise I'm not actually this defensive about this theory, I am just very passionate about Deltarune. I hope that none of this came off harshly, I think that a lot of what you presented should defiently be considered when deciding what theory to believe. I really enjoy your videos, and I believe in some of the other theores you have made on your channel, I just think you're wrong about this one.
Rouxls kaard has the most evidence towards being the knight
@@JeffTheBagelTRUE
Ultimately, I prefer Black Chestnut's arguments in favour of Kris Knight - namely, that it is far and away the simplest and most natural conclusion to come to for someone playing through the game without them getting knee-deep in the weeds of the Theory Community. Every other theory involves not only massive amounts of speculation, but also requires you to assume that the Weird Red Flags about Kris (end cutscenes of both Ch 1 and Ch 2 most notably) are ALL red herrings meant to distract you. Why would Toby even bother throwing that many fakeouts? For instance, the ending of Chapter 2 is either the reveal of Kris Knight or else a HUGE red herring, and one that can only really work specifically because we are currently in the middle of a hiatus - once Deltarune is actually finished, a player will go right onto Chapter 3 mere minutes after seeing Kris open the third Dark World, and it's very likely that Kris Knight will either be proven or debunked in said chapter (all it takes is a single Darkner in Chapter 3 saying that the Knight created this world, or else identifying someone other than the Knight as the creator). So if Chapter 2's ending is a fakeout, then it's a fakeout that in the finished game will only work for like 20 minutes. That seems really odd.
That reasoning doesn't work when we only have 2 chapters available. The fake out works cuz toby knew that the time between ch2 and ch3 would be massive
I disagree that the Knight's motivation is to cause the Roaring - if that is the case, then they're stunningly incompetent at their job, since they could easily have just opened a large number of Fountains, or jumped into any of the other Dark Worlds and created another Fountain within them. If the Knight wanted to cause the Roaring, they would've done it by now. The title of "Roaring Knight" is something given to them by Queen, someone who explicitly states that she never actually met them and was just basing her plan on assumptions she made about their motivations. Queen also didn't even know about the Roaring when she said that line, so it's even less likely that this is evidence of the Knight's motivation. I'm guessing that Queen is basing that name off of what she heard when the Dark Fountain was opened in the library (remember, she's a Laptop, and recorded the Fountain's opening on her in-built webcam - she could have also captured the probably-very-loud opening process with an in-built microphone as well).
I believe The Knight/Kris is creating something for Asriel based on their web searches. And they are also creating "video games" to make new friends. I think Kris wants to show Asriel something. And they are experimenting to create the perfect Dark World. Perhaps something to convince Asriel to stay and idolize the loner, Kris.
One of the biggest things in my opinion, is that Ralsei didn’t detect the new dark fountain until Kris and Susie were already there. It is plausible to believe that Ralsei can detect new fountains, and he probably would warn the rest of the gang as soon as he detects one. If Kris somehow had created the fountain last night, Ralsei would warn the gang first thing after class
Unless Ralsei was created by the Knight, who is Kris, and therefore, is covering for them.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 Yes, but that sounds like confirmation bias more than anything else, tbh
Remember Ralsei talks to Kris when we aren't watching with his "So that why" speeches that he specifically directs our attention away from.@@TheSoulCalledZuzia
Also, Remember in the Snowgrave route Ralsei's "But wait... We were supposed to-!!!!". We, the Player, don't engage with the party enough to draw our attention from Kris outside Noelle room, and it is implied Ralsei "was supposed to-" do this. But Susie moves through her stuff too fast too.
So, Ralsei cannot go "think about Susie" to move the Scene and Our perspective like he was apparently supposed to. Because Susie is already right next Kris.
And If Kris created Ralsei and he is in on the plan, Ralsei would be talking to Kris to confirm parts of the Plan, but We, using Kris as Vessel, deflect their script.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 There are two problems with those two arguments:
1. The "so that's why" part. This theory bases on the assumption that Kris created Ralsei. So that would make Kris the mastermind and the one who knows the entire plan. So shouldn't Kris be the one who explains the plan, instead of Ralsei?
2. Actually, you can skip the entire "thinking about what Susie is doing" part in the normal route as well. You just need to choose the option that you don't care and then second one that says that you really don't care or something like this and that will skip the entire scene. If Kris and Ralsei were supposed to do something in that scene, shouldn't Ralsei react the same way in that scene, too? But instead, he brushes it off. I agree, he really wanted the player to go away in that moment, but still - if anyone's a mastermind here it's not Kris, but Ralsei.
I find the argument about Berdly and Noelle sleeping at the table meaning they were there when the fountain opened very unconvincing. In chapter 1, Kris and Susie emerged in an entirely different room when the fountain was closed
Added to that, Queen's recording of the Fountain opening (presumably taken with her real-world laptop camera) doesn't show Noelle or Berdley in the picture, even though the Laptop that becomes Queen is sitting directly across from where they wake up. If they were there when it was created, it would've been caught on camera.
In chapter 1, Kris and Susie went through the door connecting to the storage room into the unused classroom. Both rooms had a Dark Fountain.
@@skeletorthebest7204 This is true but it still means movement within the dark world can translate to movement outside the dark world in some way
@@ScaryPurpleAmpersand yes but why would they be sitting and asleep? i know this are details that don't really matter since there are more important arguments but if we were to consider them being asleep makes more sense if the knight created the fountain when they were inside
@@OverdadeiroIkarus three possibilities:
1.) Dark Fountains reflect the will of their creator, the Knight wanted Noelle and Berdly to think this was a dream to not put more pressure on them.
2.) A brief lapse in consciousness is normal for coming out of dark worlds for the first time in general, we wouldn't be able to observe Kris and Susie being asleep first coming out of the Card Kingdom since our PoV was asleep at the time.
3.) We don't fully understand dark worlds and their rules yet and likely never will, Toby just wanted them to be asleep and believe it was a dream because that works better for the story he's trying to tell.
@15:27-. I think this guy might have seen your video: czcams.com/video/hxOtJ_jn4VE/video.htmlsi=uUSbhiEzICvqp7JM
Because he answers me answers this response in particular, and frankly I agree with him. Noelle and Birdley sleeping after they enter the computer room would actually be a bigger plot hole than whatever pothole you assume would occur if Kris was the Knight.
While I'm here, might has well clean out the other thing that was bothering me, literally when I read that line in the computer closet about how a large man could fit in there, my immediate thought was "That's a reference to the giant robot we fought". I see no reason why it has to be foreshadowing that the Knight created the dark fountain in the closet, it works just fine as a callback to the event of the dark world, which is something one would expect given this scene's counterpart in chapter 1.
Love your videos so much
I'm personally still holding on to my theory that Kris just did this for selfish reasons and the fact someone else opened a dark world is going to tip the Knight off that someone's onto it.
That’s what I was thinking, they slashed the tires so that Susie would stay over, and left the door open to let Undyne in to prove dark worlds exist, but mostly, they wanted another adventure with their best friend Susie, for whom they think can break the strings on their soul.
Btw, The Knight's goal being just to cause the Roaring is stupid af, just bc they're called "The Roaring" Knight dosen't mean that's their goal, Toby wouldn't wrote the main antagonist (not main villain specifically) a bad guy who just wants to do bad stuff, GasterKnight is also rlly bland and boring imo
Gaster probably doesn't even have a physical form.
While I don’t believe kris is the knight I think when trying to discredit the videos first point you called them sleeping with their books open a plot hole. I don’t think this is a plot hole they could have gotten no studying done and immediately got taken to the dark world. Just like how in the first chapter kris and Susie closed the portal and were asleep with all these items on the floor around them in a different room somehow. They woke up not knowing what happened, I believe this is the case with noelle and berdley not being in the original way they entered the room. So while you may call it a plot hole, I see it as following continuity with how leaving a world works.
This. All this. Does Susie not quite literally ask Kris if what happened even was real after they get back to the light world? Meaning its not at all a stretch to believe that if they were pushed towards "Must have been a dream" they would just accept it.
sorry if i misconstrued your point, but if they got taken into the dark world immediately since it was there since the night before, what opportunity would they have to open their books? in the first chapter it makes sense since when they moved to card kingdom they switched rooms, but when they woke up they hadnt like. interfered w anything in the light world before getting out of the cabinet and turning on the lights. we can assume all the toys were left out on the floor. but for noelle and berdly they had to have taken out their study materials for the room to look like it did. basically the things you do in the dark worlds have a small tangible effect on the light world - going through the doors to card kindgom from castle town is what transported the kids to the room over. berdly and noelle havent moved since unleashing their booklongings because they stayed in the same dark world the whole time. (dumb n lazy comment sorry if i got your point wrong)
Great video and points! Just wanted to add that being asleep is probably a side effect of leaving a dark world because it closed and not a cause of noelle and birdly's study being boring. This is probably the case because it seems neither of them were asleep when they came into the dark world, and neither were asleep when the fountain was closing.
Well in chapter one kris and suzy are fully awake when the fountain closes, and suzy is awake under the weird route in chapter, so it’s not a proximity thing allowing them to stay awake the first time. So I think it’s more likely they were asleep, mostly on the basis of there being no reason for them to be where they are.
Another possibility - Ralsei put them to sleep with his magic before the Dark World finished closing. We already know that he has the power to do that, and to be honest, him doing that to cover up the whole incident is the best explanation we currently have. Every other explanation involves either assuming that Dark Worlds forming puts you to sleep (which is completely unsupported speculation) or else the bizarre idea that Noelle and Berdley decided to take a nap instead of studying like they were supposed to, which seems pretty out of character for both of them (especially since there aren't even any chairs on that side of the table, so they'd have to have decided to sleep standing up or slouching over for some reason).
So let me get this straight the knight walks into the library and decides to walk into the room and hide in the closet and then when he sees Noelle and Berdly walk into the room he waits for them to sit down and then only then he decides to create a dark fountain and sprint out of the room as fast as possible and some how Noelle and Berdly don't see this man bust out of the closet and sprint out the room, and your calling the idea that Kris uses armor and swords and shields all things commonly used by knights goofy, yes because using imagery to hint to character motivations and plot twists is an entirely ridiculous thing that has only been done in most great works of fiction god forbid we use imagery and artistic choices to make our theories instead relying on plot holes that the author didn't even which by the way aren't even plot holes
1 - Look I know Noelle is a timid but, being to afraid to walk into a dark room what do you thinks gonna happen if she see her shadow. Look I know Kris and Susie were somewhat afraid to walk into the room originally but that still doesn't make it an impossibility that Noelle could have walked into the room. Also, all of this ignoring Berdly who I know doesn't exactly seem the most brave but, his presents their does put social pressure onto Noelle who probably wouldn't want to look like a 5 year old who couldn't walk into a room because it was to dark. Also, all of this is ignoring the fact that Noelle likes to explore things that scare her, you that key aspect of her personality which only helps her to tie into the greater theme of escapism that the grand narrative is clearly trying to use
2 - Is it really that big of a deal that Noelle and Berdly woke up on the desk because it's not like the only other time we've seen someone come out of dark world they ended up in a whole other fucking room but, there must be some significance to these character waking up on the desk. It's not like them beginning there helps them to actively helps to make them think that they just woke up from a dream. No its not like if they woke on the floor they'd be somewhat confused to how they all passed out on they floor like somebody chloroformed them and it would turn into that one scene from Community
3 - Does nobody remember what the man in the closet quote was referring to because what it was referencing was not that a man waited in the closet for two kids to walk into a library only so he could sprint out, it was referencing to the fact that you could hide Berdly's dead body in the closet. Now I might be mistaken but, I'm pretty sure that quote is only seen in the weird route. You the route where Berdly is dead and order to allude to that death and show that he's not just sleeping a bunch of dialog was changed
I'll give you some evidence like the fact that Kris walks slow but, everything else is just pure nonsense if you know what your talking about. There is some questions brought up by your theory that I find quite interesting, why was no one else in the library or if some one was in the closet why did they wait for Noelle and Berdy to show up and did they know they were coming. I mean you can't make fun of the sans is ness theory when your theory just has twice as many holes as that theory. I mean Jesus Christ! Now for be it from me to speak for Toby Fox or know what's going on in his head but as a writer and someone who has made stories with twist like this a kind video like this would make me go ape shit. It creates plot holes from nothing and it kind of refuses to go along with the storytelling in favor of your own view on things and in way that feels kind of insulting like your refusing to focus what your being told because it isn't interesting or clever enough to captive and are instead ripping it down by using these made up plot holes. Engaging with media like this just feels stupid, wouldn't be better to analyze the story and the themes contained within. Like how if Kris is the knight how much sense that would make and would it would say for his character and story going forward. Look don't let me tell you to engage with media but, I think if don't look into the greater stories or lessons behind many of the thing we all consume you'll miss out on some truly interesting and life changing lesson from all kinds people and I personally wouldn't recommend that
regarding your first paragraph, no, she says that the knight snuck into the dark world with them unnoticed, which has the potential of happening.
3. That's a fan theory and has no proof.
You didn't get it straight, she literally explained it in the video.
The Knight enters the Computer Lab to open a Dark Fountain, but Noelle and Berdly walk in and that makes the Knight hide in the closet, Noelle and Berdly then fall asleep, the Knight leaves the closet, opens the Dark Fountain and leaves the library.
1. Noelle isn't just timid she's specifically a scaredy cat, a people-pleaser and a coward, she's interested in scary things but only from afar, that's why it took her so long to befriend Susie. It's also stupid that both Noelle and Berdly would willingly walk into a scary and dark room but still believe it was all a dream.
2. It is a big deal and this is the first time we've seen someone come out of a dark world on a whole other side of the room.
Them waking up there literally helps them believe it was all a dream, that's the point.
3. No man is mentioned, the dialogue says "A large person could easily fit inside" and Berdly is visibly not a large person, there'd be no point in hiding Berdly's body anyway since Kris robs everything else in that room and it's not like a closet is a good place to hide a body.
Sans is Ness definitely does not have as many holes as this theory, that's a disingenuous comparison.
Creating plot holes out of nothing and refusing to go along with the storytelling in favor of your own view is exactly what you're doing, what you're saying and your tone are way more insulting than a video that literally just says "I disagree with this theory about the story of a video game".
Are you really gonna argue that Noelle came to ask Susie to come study, walked to the library, and within minutes of starting goes to sleep together with Berdly? Like man, this was not hours upon hours of time that they were there before we got there. Its an extreme stretch to try and tell me that they went to do a thing and just decided to sleep instead.
1. Computer room has no windows, it being dark can and more than likely would be easily explained by Berdly or both that the lights are off. As we saw in chapter 1, you don't necessarily fall immediately upon walking into a dark world room as both Kris and Susie walk far into the closet before anything happens. Would it be weird for the room to be so dark? Yes. Would it stop them from walking inside if like out first main character they assume its just the light being off? No.
2. Not the first time, chapter 1 enter the closet. Come out right in the middle of the empty classroom, including Susie specifically asking Kris if what happened was real. Its clear that exiting a dark world at least for the first time is not as clear as just "Wow that was amazing" seeing how it was even a question at the end of chapter 1's world where we know Susie was not sleeping.
3. The line "A large person could easily fit inside" really only tells us one thing for sure. That the closet is big enough to fit a a large person easily. Berdly is not a large person, therefor they can also fit inside of there. While I do not agree with the idea that its just a quote for hiding Berdly, it is infinitely better to place him into the closet after the weird route than to leave him slumped over the desk assuming Kris even cares about that.
The hops that one needs to jump through to "Debunk" that Kris could have opened the library portal is honestly way more of a stretch than just assuming for now that he did. In the end we will see what happens, and what the story does tell. Its entirely likely that Toby did not want the "Who is the knight" thing to be the main mystery so just got it out of the way early so he can set up something way more interesting.
0:14 I thought someone just knocked on my window that nearly gave me a heart attack
The problem I have with the timeline is that it only works if the fountain was somehow created in the same place and time as Noelle and Berdly, but without either of them noticing what was happening.
The only believable way I could see this happening is if the fountain was opened within the closet, and when the closet door opened the darkness covered the rest of the room with Noelle and berdley inside.
As for why the darkness can spread here but not it the school? The school has windows in the hallway, so it can't covered the same way a single room can.
The knight could have just created the fountain, and just left the closet and closed the door.
I think this explanation works, and it removes the need for the knight to create the fountain at that time. As for why the closet door opened? IDK, perhaps they needed a textbook and the library had it in storage. It's a bit contrived, but the less so than any other option I've seen. This works no matter who the knight is, I just don't think the fountain could have been created the way the timeline describes.
The location of Noelle and berdly once the fountain is sealed is a problem, but Kris and Susie also moved locations in chapter 1.
Side note:I also just assumed Kris could run there if he needed to, but his movements are stiff and segmented because he's in pain. Although, the idea of Kris slowly waddling across town is pretty funny. But the difficulty of getting over there is definitely still good evidence against the Kris Knight theory.
The pieces of evidence that I find most compelling for Kris being the knight are:
-Ralsei's existence.
Although not confirmed by any means, Kris is the most likely person to have created Ralsei. If true, then Kris is responsible for at least 2 of the (known) dark fountains in the story.
-The TV and Pie.
In between chapter 1 & 2, Kris plugged in the TV in the middle of the knight (lol), presumably just after removing the soul. He also ate toriel's pie. Both of these made creating the Dark fountain in chapter 2 easier. Because of this, the dark fountain at the house was probably planned out since at least the end of chapter one. Kris shouldn't have known how to create dark fountains until chapter 2 though. It is technically possible he planned it anyway and just got lucky, but that seems unlikely.
-The wording about the knight.
No one has ever been explicitly confirmed to have seen the knight. King might have, but he only said the knight created the fountain and the kings were imprisoned. You don't need to enter a fountain to create one, and the Kings weren't confirmed to have been imprisoned by the knight specifically. This means that no one recognizing Kris isn't an issue, because they haven't ever seen the knight in person. (Exept Queen, who only saw a hand and a knife.)
Granted, there are still problems with Kris being the knight, but not enough to rule him out IMO.
Your evidence is sound, except for one thing. Kris is really adverse to Ralsei. They dislike him heavily based on the tea. And also, considering that Ralsei is intentionally trying to get Kris to not worry about the nature of puppets, and the implications of what happens if their own strings break, I think Ralsei, while being made of the horns, only looks like Kris’s brother Asriel as some sort of guise, something to lure them into trusting him.
Kris is adverse to Ralsei , if They are the Knight, because Ralsei is a tool, literally. And Even though Ralsei is trying to please and comfort Kris , he isn't "real" and not Asriel, the person Kris actually wants to idolize them. Ralsei , to Kris, is a second rate clone, a mental imaginary friend, a sycophant doll, I theorize. It is basically Kris talking to themself with the face of Asriel, and that could be percieved as pathetic.
And therefore, to Kris, Ralsei liking him is shameful, I think, because Kris is putting words in his mouth. A puppet comforting another puppet.
Ralsei is Kris's walking, talking shame. Their brother, subservient. but also a version of themself. A version of Asriel projected that is submissive to Kris's whims.... will literally let Kris stand on him/them. oof.
On the topic of whether Noelle & Berdley would walk into the Lab while the Fountain is active, I don't think it's that difficult to imagine happening. At first it would simply look like a dark room, and I can see Berdley going in to search for a lightswitch. Noelle is a coward, yes, but she's also a total doormat (to the point where you can bully her into committing murder in the Weird Route), so I can see her following Berdley inside if he just showed a little bravado (something that's well within his character). Either way, it seems a bit more logical than assuming that they went in and then just decided to fall asleep instead of actually studying like they were supposed to, especially since there aren't actually any chairs on that side of the table (they're slumped over standing up). If they didn't fall asleep, then they'd presumably notice the Fountain being opened (it's far from a subtle process, plus they'd probably see the Knight holding a knife or blade of some kind, which would probably freak them out). Besides, by that day the traffic jam had already started, so there's no way the Knight could have escaped from the Library without being caught by Undyne.
i find it sorta nuts how you kinda just spawned in with amazing content. only 5 videos and they're bangers?? that's crazy, you're doing an amazing job
gotta be one of if not my favorite delta theorist
Best lawyer ever
Great video! I adore your editing style and attention to detail~
The only evidence that seems damning for Kris not to be the knight is based on the unproven assumption that the library dark fountain was created between Noelle asking Kris and Susie to study with them, and Kris and Susie leaving Ralsei's dark world. There are TONS of holes in your reasoning why that has to be the case. Kris walking to the library without their soul might not actually take as long as you think, the library might not even be locked, Ralsei might not detect the existence of the other dark world when it's created (Ralsei might be something Kris always keeps on their person and thus couldn't have known about the other dark world until he entered it), and Ralsei might be in on Kris's schemes that we, the player, don't know about. (See: "That's why Kris" and his freakout when PoV doesn't change to Susie during the snowgrave route)
It's insane to me how wound up people are in believing 1000% that Kris could NEVER be the knight NOT my PRECIOUS KRIS.
Like I'd be fine with people having second thoughts on it, but no like 90% of the comments I see against Kris knight go on like "This is IMPOSSIBLE cause x and y"
And all the points are insanely specific minute details that....seemingly amount to nothing?
It almost all falls in 1 of 3 categories
1.Shit that happened off screen that they interpret in a HYPER SPECIFIC WAY
2.Things characters said in a vague or non explanatory manner that they interpret in 1 way.
3.Unexplained character motives that they insist they know already the answer to.
It's all smoke and mirrors that they're squinting at to get the result they want, and it always makes Kris Knight deniers look kinda pathetic?
People can really twist anything to mean about anything.
It's not much of an assumption when, basing on how we've actively seen dark worlds function, it would be entirely impossible for both Noelle and Berdly to assume it's a dream, or that they even fell asleep studying.
Firstly, we've seen how rooms containing an already existing fountain works, once the door is opened, the darkness spreads out of the room, and the room has an almost void-like darkness inside, afterwards, you have to actively FALL into said fountain (I say FALL, because it is shown that when entering dark fountains, you fall into the dark world, and Kris even states this to Undyne.) making you arrive into the Dark World.
Secondly, for Noelle and Berdly to assume they're in a dream they'd have to 1. Forget all that happened, 2. Somehow gain a false recollection of entering the computer lab 3. Somehow gain a false recollection of settling the books down. 4. Somehow gain a false recollection of falling asleep.
I personally don't think they would've just... forgotten that they never even ENTERED the computer lab in the first place, if they weren't already there lol.
I see it much more likely that they likely fell asleep, over just happening to forget several important details conveniently so that they can assume it was all a dream, and I see it as less of a stretch to assume that The Knight was hiding and waiting for them to fall asleep, over Berdly and Noelle getting a severe case of memory loss and fabricating false memories to somehow excuse everything that happened.
I feel it's important to mention Susie, as she's the only character we've seen ON SCREEN enter a Dark World on accident, and, at no point, does Susie assume it was a dream, they only briefly ask Kris after the fountain was closed, only to immediately brush it off and suggest returning the next day, without any input from Kris to reassure it was a dream or not.
Now, Berdly doesn't mention it being a dream while there, but he's quick to brush it off as one upon waking up, meanwhile Noelle immediately assumes it's a dream and continues to hold that belief, even in the light world.
Those are vastly different experiences for characters who would've, in theory, experienced the same thing, wouldn't it? I know different characters would react differently to the same scenario, of course, but the fact that not even Susie (who doesn't seem to be as smart as Noelle) was willing to make the HUGE leaps in logic needed to assume it was a dream, it makes it doubtful they went through the same experience of jumping into a dark world.
TL;DR: Based on what we've seen from rooms containing Dark Worlds, both Noelle and Berdly would need to have made several leaps in logic, and would both have had to suffer extreme memory loss, along with memory fabrication to have assumed they were dreaming after having to literally FALL into a Dark World.
I think based on just that, it's quite proof enough that the fountain was very likely created AFTER Noelle and Berdly entered to study.
@@JammyJam5588 It works both ways, though. Both sides use arguments that are less or more likely or less or more specific.
@@TheSoulCalledZuzia What in gods name are you even trying to say.
@@JammyJam5588 That both sides have more or less believeable arguments.
I feel like the whole situation with Kris is much simpler than it is made out to be. Ultimately there are two possibilities that make the most sense to me, and they are as follows:
One - Kris is literally just a lonely kid that found out there is a magical realm that, as far as they know, only themselves and a few other select people seem to know about. In said realm they can go on adventures with their friends and other fun things, even though it is rather dangerous. Its a secret and special place just for them and their friends. Before the second Dark Fountain it was anyone's guess if what they and Susie went through was even real, but now Kris has learned something very important: You can just straight up make these things.
Think about the possibilities if you were in their shoes. Unlimited adventures and fun as long as you just shut the Fountain when you are ready to wrap up so that way you don't trigger the Roaring. Kris in this scenario is just a lonely kid that now stumbled upon the ultimate toy and this also ties in nicely with the theme of escapism that has been simmering in the background with DR for a bit now. Kris can use the Dark World to effectively never have to deal with reality again, in a very grim sense.
And then the Second option, although part of this can also tie in with the first: Kris learned from Spamton there just might be a way in the Dark Worlds to rid themselves of their own "strings" holding them back. Spamton may have failed, but there is a slim chance that Kris can regain control away from us/the soul potentially, and the key to it may involve something in the Dark Worlds. This ultimately assumes Kris does not like the soul/us, which based on how they seem to act when they want us out for a bit may be the case, but either way the possibility remains. There are all sorts of strange beings, powers, and objects in Dark Worlds, and who knows what could be done with them. For Kris, the possibilities are now theoretically endless, all they need to do is play their metaphorical cards right and explore the mysteries of the Dark Worlds as long as they can and eventually they might find a way to cut their strings, but this time without the catastrophic consequences Spamton faced.
Anyway, thats my thoughts on the matter. Neither idea are entirely mutually exclusive however as Kris could theoretically desire both of these things, but I feel these make more sense than Kris being the Knight.
Kris knight deniers when you ask them why Noelle and Berdley didn’t run out of the room when "The knight" jumped out of da closet and made a dark fountain and also they never mention seeing that happen or anything.
@12:05-. The thing is, this is only a plot hole if you assume that the way lightener placements in space when a dark world dissipates works in one specific way (in this case, presumably it being point of entry based), but I don't really see any reason why it needs to work like this at all. I actually looked up a long play of chapter 1 just to see what the scene after Kris and Susie sealing up the dark fountain was like again (because it's our only other reference point for how special precisioning after the erasure of a dark world works), it starts out in pitch black, and then after some funny noises and Susie telling Kris to knock it off, and then both characters are standing next to the light switch. It's possible that they started at the door to the closet (presumably the light world version of the great door, and that's their entry point), or the cabinet (presumably the object turned into dark castle) and then hugged the wall till they reached the light switch, but the funny noises and the dialogue seem to imply that Kris and Susie started at the center of the room, and then fumbled their way to whatever wall they could find, which just so happened to be the light switch wall. Point being, we don't know where the frick they were when the dark fountain was sealed.
So far, for as far as I can tell, the only evidence that the dark worlds work in a way that would make it impossible for Kris to be the Knight is the fact that Kris and Susie happened to be standing at the door to the computer room after sealing the dark fountain. The question is it "why are Noelle and Birdly sleeping at the desk when the dark world disappeared?", but "why we would expect anything else?". This is why, even when watching videos that fully convinced me Kris wasn't the night, I always felt like this was a weak piece of evidence, I just never got the impression that the disappearance of a dark world worked in a particular way, much less the specific way it would have to work to rule out the fountain being made at night.
I personally doubt we're going to get a consistent pattern as to where lighteners are put after the disappearance of a dark world, and if we do, it will be unintentional. Toby is not a big lore-lore guy (as evidenced by the unanswerable question that is Chara, and the existence of essence that is only there to explain Flawy), his expertise and interests are more in character writing and theme mastery.
The only answer i have right now as to "why Berdly and Noelle are "sleeping" while Kris and Susie are standing up in front of the door, is because K&S are fully aware of what the Dark Worlds are, while B&N think it's just a dream.
Therefore, if we go by the logic of the Dark Worlds reflecting the will/desires/thoughts ecc of the Lightners, since B&N believed to be asleep, when the Fountain was sealed they're bodies were put in that position, while K&S don't need any "adjustment" because they know the truth of the "adventure" they went through...
Perhaps my point is a bit confused but, essentially, Berdly and Noelle believed to be sleeping so that's how they found themselves once the Fountain was sealed. We still have no idea what exactly happens to the physical body of a Lightner when they enter a Dark World but it's clear that there is a clear separation between them (Susie eats constantly but is still hungry, the only kind of damage that afflicts them is "mental" since Berly can lose an arm with an explosion but in the real world it just gets stiff and paralized...) so, with that, we can deduce that whatever happens when the room is filled with darkness does not affect the real bodyes of those who enter it, but that darkness can move them howerer and wherever it needs to (see chapter one for example, from the closet to the unused class)
I don't think Berdly and Noelle sitting down with their books far from the door necessarily proves that the Dark Fountain was made with them inside. After all, Kris and Susie manages to change rooms while in a Dark World in Chapter 1. Plus Noelle was at the beginning of Cyber World, which could mean she was near the door at the time. Also, Noelle and Berdly clearly haven't started studying yet : When the Dark Fountain is closed, their books are closed.
They changed rooms because they changed dark rooms and so were launched in like how they run into the chapter 2 one so they are collapsed a couple of feet inside. Are you telling me the dark fountain decided to plop them into their seats with their books nicely in a pile?
@@redbush5483 In my opinion, no. They did it themselves, like what happened in Chapter 1 with Kris and Susie. At the very least, Susie didn't know that there was a Dark World in the closet, her first instinct was assuming that the light was off. We were able to walk quite a lot inside the closet, before falling into the Dark World. My idea is : As long as the first one into a room with a Dark World doesn't know that there is a Dark World in there, it won't throw them directly into the Dark World. Susie was first in the closet, as she is in front of us when Kris enters the closet. And so, Kris and Susie had to "wait" until Susie realizes that something is wrong. Same goes with Noelle and Berdly. As they are the smartest in their class, they probably spend a lot of time in the computer lab studying and researching for their project. They just saw a dark room where the computer lab is, and they just followed their habits, and went to their usual spots and put down their books. Noelle then decided that turning the lights on could be useful, walked to where the light switch should be, and that's when they realised something is wrong, starting the process of entering the Dark World.
I always enjoy when people respectfully disagree with another person's theory. There's too much hate that people spread around cause of a difference in opinion over a game. Great Video!
"respectfully"
ralsei is most likely meant to be the red horns, and every chapter he talks privately with that most likely means kris created ralsei, and that should mean that he created the dark fountain to give a place for ralsei to be and for other darkeners. they have a motivation to open a dark fountain, for now we know that the soul is the thing that could seal the dark fountain, and kris has it, that could mean that kris wants to open the fountains to eventually seal them. why would he do that? because the party levels up each time the fountain is sealed and he can recruit more darkeners. why does he need that? no one knows its to early to tell. also, if every lightener can potentially create a dark fountain, why wont there be more that 1 knight? kris was super tired in chapter 2 we know they slept all the school day. yeah they walk slowly without the soul but why would it make them unable to make the dark fountain? it actually makes more sense because of them spending the whole night walking to the library, opening the dark fountain and then returning home.
god, after a long fuckin day a TheSoph video is just what I need. I typically don't watch random youtubers I find, especially if they have one good video and not much else, but I have faith in you. Good content with solid editing, what more is there to ask? Long in the short of it, this is what I needed, thanks.
On an almost entirely unrelated note, I just had a thought about the computer lab closet. What if that's how Ralsei got to us in ch2? What if closets have special properties? This is probably nothing, but it's interesting to ponder.
I don't know why all these theories insist that Noelle and Berdly need to have been seated where they woke up when the fountain was created considering that Kris and Susie ended up in a completely different location when exiting the Dark World in Chapter 1
There's a difference for that. The closet is Ralsei's dark world. The great door, which they go through, is the door to the unused classroom. They enter a whole new room. For the library, there's one room.
Also, why would the dark world magically have all their study equipment in the perfect place if they hadn't put it there?
Kris didn't open a dark fountain, the just stabbed the ground, cut a wire and afterwards also a gas pipe
the closet is most likely the cyber city where the huge queen robot and your huge robot have fought each other. and when i first saw it i fought the line was referring to hiding berdly's body .
I don't think it at all unlikely for Kris to be able to open the dark fountain in a single night, the library isn't an insane distance from their house and just because it looks somewhat difficult for Kris to move, It doesn't seem at all impossible for them to take a stroll down to the library. Plus, Alphys that there isn't much crime in hometown, so people likely aren't paranoid enough to notice someone picking the library's locks to get in
you can hold X + C to skip through dialogue a lot faster,
in chapter 1 you had to get an item but its a default thing in 2
Spooky's Kris knight theory does have holes caused by assumptions, but so does your Kris not knight theory.
1. Noelle & Berdly being in the chairs on the opposite side of the room doesn't really mean anything. Kris & Susie woke up from chapter 1's dark fountain in the unused classroom despite having entered through the closet. There's currently no reason to believe that where you enter the dark world is where you'll be when the fountain closes.
2. The books being open isn't a plotpoint, hell I'm not even sure they actually are open based on the sprites. Setting that aside, neither Noelle nor Berdly have backpacks. You can see at the end of chapter 2, they're carrying their books in their arms, which as they were unconscious when the fountain was closed they wouldn't reasonably be able to do.
3. While it doesn't make sense for Noelle on her own to enter a dark fountain, I think it's perfectly in line with Berdly to do so and drag Noelle in along with him.
4. I don't think a single line of flavortext is sufficient to say that the Knight hid in the closet is heavily implied. Maybe implied, but when I first encountered that in my own playthrough I interpreted it as a reflection of Kris's narrative style/sense of humor. This does assume Kris is acting as the narrator for us, I will admit, but even if we treat the narrator as having no personality and simply narrating, I don't think it's outside Toby's sense of humor to make a 'you could fit a dead body in here' joke. Admitedly that is also based on assumption. This entire point is probably the weakest but given that you insisted on calling it a heavy implication when yours is just as much an assumption I thought it was worth bringing up.
Personally, I still buy Kris Knight theory. It's the first thing to jump to mind at the end of chapter 2 for most players as far as I've seen, and the game was meant to be released 2-7 all at once so there wasn't supposed to be this huge cliffhanger. While it's true in chapter 2 that Kris never left the soul outside themself for an extended period of time, we don't know how long Kris can go without it or if there even is a real time limit. That, the fact that time for the characters is almost certainly not going by at the same rate as it is for us players, and the fact that Deltarune takes place in a small rural town where the police are actively bored because no crimes are being committed, this is another assumption but people do fall out of the habit of locking doors when they don't need to lock them. Furthermore, Queen only talks about seeing the Knight open the fountain, we don't know if they actually went in or not.
Kris Knight isn't the only theory I'll accept though. Narratively speaking, the Discarded Vessel could also be a really compelling Knight. I can imagine versions of the story where it turned out to be Asriel or Dess as well, though of these 4 Kris is the only one that has any reasonable amount of evidence right now.
24:50 love ur video, but this is kind of a dumb point. Queen could easily just assume from Kris's actions, and they don't HAVE to interact with her. she actually seems to be pretty confused on who the knight even is or what the knights motives themself is
also, i feel like if you were told "manipulating someone into stabbing the ground will create a paradise," and then suddenly, easily manipulatable teens show up, you'd be like, "damn, guess im creating paradise." and then, that very guy comes back, trying to stop you, you'd be like "uh bro? what the hell? im trying to create a paradise YOU told me about, what are you doing?" in my mind, i feel like queen would immediatly mention this.
The Queen didn't see the Knight's Face as a Laptop in the Light World, just their Knife and Hand. The Paradise idea is just connections she made by herself. Incorrect assumptions made to please "her gods"./Lightners. Using the Dark World to replace the Internet she cannot access anymore for Lightner entertainment.
Queen admits she never met the Knight and was working based off of assumptions, and the recording of the Fountain opening explicitly states that there's too much smoke to tell who's standing there. That means Queen doesn't actually know the Knight's appearance or motivation.
@@CantusTropus damn true, I may be stupid.
7:27 - You do realize that entry rooms to Dark Worlds having non-normal geometries works *against* your argument, not *in favor of* it, right? - It means that you just straight-up can't determine movement in these rooms for certain one way or another.
Incidentally, there is another thing to note about your video: You claim that Noelle and Berdly are _sitting_ at the table with their heads resting on it. That's not true. They aren't sitting at the table, they're half bent over it - _maybe_ kneeling on the floor, but it's not quite clear. There are no chairs where they are. They definitely haven't been sitting.
This could be read in one of two ways: You could say that it's evidence for your theory, because it pretty much proves that they were caught completely off-guard by the fountain opening. Or you can read it as evidence that the open books are just an oversight, because them standing around instead of sitting, but with their books open, is at least a little bit odd.
I think Books are something that was on their person's in the Dark World, and appeared as different objects. Also. the books aren't open.
@@tarvoc746
wysi
@@ihaetschool3361 Are you referring to the position of Noelle and Berdly, or to something I missed?
@@tarvoc746 I think it's because of the OSU community, where they typically say "wysi" whenever they see the number 727 as a meme. You pointed out the timestamp 7:27.
@@UnoriginalJokester Maybe I'm just being stupid right now, but what's the OSU community?
its always great when TheSoph™ drops a video
To the question of "why Berdly and Noelle are "sleeping" while Kris and Susie are standing up in front of the door, i think the most simple answer is because K&S are fully aware of what the Dark Worlds are, while B&N think it's just a dream.
Therefore, if we go by the logic of the Dark Worlds reflecting the will/desires/thoughts ecc of the Lightners, since B&N believed to be asleep, when the Fountain was sealed they're bodies were put in that position, while K&S don't need any "adjustment" because they know the truth of the "adventure" they went through...
Perhaps my point is a bit confused but, essentially, Berdly and Noelle believed to be sleeping so that's how they found themselves once the Fountain was sealed. We still have no idea what exactly happens to the physical body of a Lightner when they enter a Dark World but it's clear that there is a clear separation between them (Susie eats constantly but is still hungry, the only kind of damage that afflicts them is "mental" since Berly can lose an arm with an explosion but in the real world it just gets stiff and paralized...) so, with that, we can deduce that whatever happens when the room is filled with darkness does not affect the real bodyes of those who enter it, but that darkness can move them howerer and wherever it needs to (see chapter one for example, from the closet to the unused class)
I'd like to debunk the evidence that "The Library dark fountain was opened DURING chapter 2 because Noelle and Berdly are sitting at the table!11!11!!", because this has always been such a stupid evidence point for me, and you wanna know why? SO ARE SUSIE AND KRIS. They might not have their heads down, but if the Library fountain was opened DURING Chapter 2, Kris and Susie should be laying on the floor, but instead, they're sitting at the desk, and we know for a FACT that they arrived at the library AFTER the Dark Fountain was created. Noelle and Berdly likely thought that the lights were off or something, like Susie thought in Chapter 1. Also, for the "A large person could easily fit inside" text, I think that's mostly to add more to the Snowgrave Route, because it implies that Berdly is stuffed into the closet after Chapter 2. Also, for the point of their books being open, this is my weakest evidence point, but what if they were reading while they were walking to the Library?
Uh Susie and Kris aren't sitting by the desk. They are standing in front of it. Exactly where they would be as they jumped through the door. They enter by doing a running jump which would land them right in front of the desk exactly where they exit the dark world. Also Kris and Susie would not be laying on the floor as when they exited the dark world in chapter 1 and every time they exit the closet dark world they are standing.
@@kingblue2632 "Erm, actually, Susie and Kris aren't SITTING by the desk, they're STANDING by the desk! These are two very different things! If they were sitting by the desk, they'd be sitting, but they're actually standing!"
Yea them standing instead of sitting doesn't prove anything. Also they enter the dark world FAST, feel like they'd either hit their heads on the top of the door or jump OVER the desk if they really run and jumped that fast.
After watching the entire video, I can debunk every single claim in it
Every single one
But it would be a ton of work so I will only do it if at least one person says they're interested
Just let me know
15:39 that's rlly out of chacareter, like why tf would Berdly and Noelle, the smartest students in class would go to study and just sleep? They just wouldn't do that
Toby once said that Chapter 3 is going to be different from the usual chapter formula, and my guess for that is because a different person created the fountain a.k.a Kris
although i think the we can complete the game in under 30 min thing is just a gameplay thing i do think time works diffrently. since in cp 2 Ralsei says it feelt like he waited for eges or something, he justifies it as wanting to hang out with his friesnds but i think it implyes that time works diffrently in the d and l world. aslo, i think the d worlds existed before just a gateway oppned with the knight oppening it
I think that was a joke because chapter 1 and chapter two were released years apart from each other
Yeah the library fountain being made by Kris has always been a pretty big narrative reach not only because Noelle going into a ominous pitch dark room seems oddly out off character for her (I mean maybe Berdly rushed in there or something and she wanted to save him but I assume she would have gone and looked for help rather than rushing in herself) but also there's really no motivation for Kris to do this given the risks involved. Like unless the theory some people have that Deltarune is taking place in a time loop is true there's absolutely no way Kris could have reasoned there would be:
a) No one walking around at night that would have stopped them.
b) No night owls that would have spotted them shuffling down the street from their home and thus would have walked outside to see what's up (I mean Kris IS a teenager so they shouldn't be walking around at like 3am on a school night...).
c) No random citizens that would have entered he computer lab in the library and thus fallen into the Dark World (something Kris would know could get them seriously injured or killed).
I know Toby Fox isn't a god or anything and thus not immune to bad writing but I just can't see him inserting this ridiculous Batman's gambit moment into the plot given how trope savvy his work typically seems to be.
Noelle is enough of a doormat to go along with anything that another person suggests with a reasonable amount of force, no matter how much she dislikes it, so I can absolutely see her following Berdley inside a dark room. I also don't think Kris' getting to the Library at night is all that hard to believe - Hometown is a tiny rural town, it's very likely everyone would be in bed by that time, unlike what happens in big cities. Even if they did see, the odds that they would actively go and stop Kris are far from certain (Kris is well known as the resident Weird Kid, after all). It's also not that hard to believe that nobody would go into the Computer Lab in the course of a day - the Internet is down across town, so there's little reason to go there at all. Besides, even if someone did - so what? We don't know what Kris' motivation is, and while it's probably not to cause the Roaring (since they could've done that easily by this point if that was their real goal), it's at least important enough to be worth killing Berdley (since his death doesn't dissuade them from continuing to make Fountains). It's possible that Kris is willing to risk hurting or killing other people for their Big Goal, even if they don't actively desire that to happen.
we dont really know where lighteners need to wake up after the dark fountain is sealed. in chapter 1 kris and susie woke up in the middle of the card dark world room and in chapter 2 they woke up at the start of the room despite both places not being close to where the dark fountain appeared.
Theres one theory I've heard that I think works best. "The Knight" isnt a person, its a title. Kris is one of the Knights, but maybe not the same Knight who created the Library. It would also just be a really cool twist
I totally agree 👍 I think out of all the theories the two knight theory makes the most sense.
Everyone tries to use evidence like Tony's planner intro scene against that, but the intro scene isn't even canon so it's weak evidence and it would still make a great twist by subverting a falsified expectation.
@@sahasrak6834I like the 7 knight theory
The library dark fountain is so heavily debated. It makes me wonder how thorough Toby fox really was with that whole situation. This is gonna be long, but was it really a giga brain setup by Toby? To make you think it was made while Noelle and Birdly was present. Or did he really actually intend it to be open before the two even show up. And they do somehow not question it and jump in. It could happen. I mean. Kris and Suzy did. But then why are they all at the desk nice and tidy? It feels like either way is a little convoluted to me. I do lean towards the knight making it while they were there. But even that still isn’t perfect. Do they really not hear the loud fountain opening sound? And not run from the darkness approaching? It’s not immediate, at the house Kris had time to slowly sit down and put the heart in before the room fills up. Nothing really fits perfectly.
Yeah I think some people are missing that the scene with us all waking up had to have 4 people framed in it somehow. The easiest way to do that is to have them all seated around a table obviously, it'd be awkward to fit 4 people all in a line.
15:25
I could easily see it just being people reading too far into things, spurred on by us not having the full story yet and it being intended to be answered in the immediate next chapters during normal gameplay (which is still an important consideration for Toby, the game WILL be finished one day, so it'll need to make sense without 2-3 year gaps between chapters too). I feel it's like Kris happening to have red eyes and "TOTALLY BEING CHARA OMG GUYS!!!!" when its shown that's just a normal physical trait about them by their dark-world entering animation.
I really think people are giving way more thpugh to the scene than toby fox ever gave it
@@anyoneatall3488 yeah I pretty much agree.
okay i have no idea how NOBODY understands this
the closet in the computer lab is referencing Queen’s Mansion, a “large person” referenced being the Giga Queen statue
i don’t get how this is so obvious to me yet the instant assumption is “the knight was in there”
i mean sure, they COULD have been but clearly with that dialogue, it’s the same situation as the drawer in the unused classroom having cards spilling out, since that’s representative of all the people in the King’s Castle
It wouldnt make sense for berdly or noelle to be asleep. It makes more sense that they walked into the dark world. I mean Berdly and noelle were seperated from one another.
However in the light world they are next to each other. This doesnt make any sense. Unless you consider the idea they did walk into rhe dark world. Berdly being first cause hes boneheaded and noelle second perhaps a few minutes after.
I don't think your evidence makes it impossible for Kris to be the knight. Kris's slow shambling movements could be temporary after removing the soul or it could be a stylistic choice to appear creepy. Also, Kris and Susie wake up in a classroom full objects representing the dark world they just traversed despite entering from the closet, meaning one's position can and does change when in the dark world. I'd argue that it actually intentionally places people in positions that allow them to rationalize what happened (ie Kris and Susie wake up in a classroom with similar objects and Noelle and Berdly wake up from "napping" during studying.) I still think it's entirely within the realm of possibility that Kris opened the dark portal the night before Chapter 2. If anything, Noelle and Berdly believing it was a dream the same way Susie did makes total sense and gives a perfect explanation to the strange magical qualities of the dark world and how it messes with people. Is it constructed with cold, hard logic? No. But it's a story with magic and alternate worlds, so it's going to have to bend the rules a little to give us a mystery that properly engages with the fantastical systems at play. I think calling it a "plot hole" or "bad writing" is a bit of a bad faith argument against the dark world having the ability to manipulate the position and surroundings of people within the dark world, since chapter 1 already established that it was possible. I also think calling the knight the main antagonist is a bit too hasty with how little we really know about the full story so far. Of course, I think it's impossible to say Kris is definitively the knight, but I also don't understand the insistence that Kris CAN'T be the knight or that it would be boring, since personally I think Kris would be one of the more interesting candidates. I think a lot of the evidence you and Spooky brought up are a bit extraneous and don't really prove much if you shift around dialogue meanings and other semantics.
What if there is many knights?
Just subscribed yesterday and I already got a new video!
I think if Kris has to be the Knight, they would at least be *a* Knight. There’s four Knights in Chess of course.
A few notes:
1. Sure, Noelle would be afraid to enter the pitch-black room. But Berdly could have easily pressured her, or have plainly dragged her in.
2. It is known that you can enter a Dark World, and then exit in a different location/position than where you entered. This happens to Kris and Susie in Ch1, where they ended up relocating several meters into another room.
3. The "a large person could fit in here" description could refer to the act of hiding Berdly's body there after Snowgrave (Kris might).
4. We don't even know whether Darkners can travel between Dark Worlds that do not physically neighbor each other. In Ralsei's case, it is actually very likely that he is produced by an item that Kris carries with themselves. After all, Ralsei is very clearly produced by an item that is personal to Kris.
5. I'm pretty sure when SD was talking about "a week", he was referring to the fact that Queen would presumably take some time to be manipulated, as would anyone.
The way SC&C talk about the matter, they really do make it sound as if Queen's Knight obsession has already been going on for some while. They don't talk about it as if the change only occured this morning. They also talk about Queen's previous personality in a "reminiscing" kind of way, as if they mentally see the change as permanent. If her change occured only 30 minutes ago, then it wouldn't make sense for them to take it so permanently. At the very least, several hours should have passed, for their attitude about the situation to make any sense.
That is, unless time DOES run slower in the Dark World whenever a Lightner is currently not inside. And under this interpretation, the Knight would have either left immediately after manipulating Queen, or the Knight is a Darkner.
Kris is not the knight. Kris is the danger. They are the one who knocks.
I always wonder why so many people try so hard to disprove it. Not like say that it's highly unlikely to happen but just IMPOSSIBLE.
Okay, tbh this video is nothing new.
Once again it mainly consists of reminding the most popluar interpretation of events so far and explaining why it does not fit "Kris is the Knight" theory.
That's not how disproving the theories works.
You can't use YOUR interpretation of events to say other theory sucks because it doesn't fit its timeline.
Similarly I can't use "Kris is the Knight" theory timeline to disprove anyone's theory.
To decide if some theory makes more sense than another you have to analyze it individually.
I must admit that you indeed tried to do it but instead of presenting both arguments and contradictions concerning both theories you gave your theory only arguments and "Kris Knight" theory only contradictions.
But okay let's talk about these arguments. I would like to mention that "Noelle and Berdly sleeping" is so outdated argument it's so interesting to see people use it in 2023. Can you explain why you make this "weird rule" that while leaving the dark world, certain person must go back to exact same position that they were in while entering it? There is nothing in the game proving it so far. Actually Kris and Susie stading at the desk after sealing the Dark Fountain is an argument disproving it (they should be right at the entrance to the computer lab).
But okay let's follow your way of thinking. If this "rule" was true why didn't Noelle and Berdly even start studying? Look at their books, they are closed and stacked on each other which means: 1) They entered the lab 2) They sat down 3) They decided to go sleep together in a public place in the middle of the day cuz why not. I really expect you to give any making sense explanation to that.
Okay, next point. I like how you say "Noelle would never go into a dark room, even Susie and Kris are scared to enter one". Oh yeah, and what can we see later in the game? Noelle walking alone through the dark alleys of the cyber city xD.
Come on
Let's go further.
Now this explanation with Knight escaping after we entered the Dark World. How did you come up with it? Did you even read Queen dialogues?
She directly says "I was just guessing based on Knight's actions". Game literally tells you there wasn't any interaction between Queen and The Knight. And yet you just calmly explain that the Knight told her what to do and escaped using some unknow method without closing the fountain. It's so great you gave that biggest contradition to "your timeline" less than 30 seconds of screentime.
Hmmm, what else....
Oh, the "Kris was watching TV and ate the pie" explanation is also great. I thought that the line saying "the TV doesn't seem to be plugged in anymore and it's dusty" clearly suggests that nobody has been using it for a long time. And yet after watching this video it turns out that for some reason after some unknown time Kris just decided to watch some TV in the night. It just sounds like a poor excuse for why they are so tired in the morning the next day. In my opinion this explanation makes as much sense as Kris going through the town to the Library and making there a fountain.
Summarizing it feels like you just increase the importance of your arguments and lower the importance of "Kris is Knight" theory arguments. Not to mention using interpretation of events to disprove another interpretation.
Why was kris in the closet? -the soph 2023
17:30 that's a bad point,, from spookydood, Ralsei dosen't have some stupid Foutain-Spidern-Sense, Ralsei was just lying
How do you know that can you provide a source? And if it was in the video, just tell me and I’ll go look back at it. Just saying oh, Rousey was lying is not good enough evidence, even if she also stated that in the video.
I made a comment on reddit that I feel would fit here as to why I think Kris may not be the Knight, so I'll just copy it here.
*inhales*
There isn't enough evidence to concretely prove anyone is the Knight right now, first of all.
Secondly, the Knight is narratively tied to the Roaring (they are referred to as "The Roaring Knight") which we can assume means that they seek to cause it, which opens a massive can of worms.
Assuming Kris is the Knight, WHY would they want the Roaring? Their personality shows that at worst they are mischievous and play some mean-spirited pranks on Noelle, but they aren't outright malicious and destructive. Secondly, how do they know all this? How did they learn how to make fountains prior to Deltarune's events? There's no way they could have unless they've had prior experience with Dark Worlds, which they MIGHT have. Kris also willingly seals the fountains, as this is an action they do without our input, even when alone (during the Weird Route no one is with them when sealing it, suggesting that they aren't doing it to maintain appearances).
During Chapter 1, when they first see the entrance to the Dark World, Kris seems terrified of it, able to wrestle enough control from the Player to back off from it. If they were The Knight, why were they scared? The Knight, from what we know of them, seems to be incredibly powerful, seemingly upending the Kingdom with its mere presence. Kris' stats aren't all that impressive, which is another reason why I'd say they can't be the Knight (I'd argue they're weaker without their Soul too, which is why they need it/why they move so slow without it).
Another reason is that the Knight can seemingly leave Dark Worlds without sealing the Fountains (we know they were briefly in the Chapter 1 Dark World as Seam mentions seeing a "strange knight"). Kris can't do this, and if they could they would have obviously told Susie (we can't control the specifics of what they say, so it is still possible that they could have let something slip to her). I say this because Kris obviously cares about Susie, even in Chapter 1 when they are supposed to be enemies.
Also, if you want to argue about it playing into the narrative theme of control, there is the counter-argument that other candidates can also fulfill this. Dess for example, and her controlling Mother, which would also force Kris to confront an obviously painful past of theirs (the Bunker maybe? Dess' disappearance too). We know Dess is similar to Susie, so she'd be a nice foil character too. Another potential candidate I quite like is another human, as it could be a great way to play into Kris' misanthropy and help them overcome it by letting them choose to spare The Knight themself (maybe even link them to Gaster/give them similar feelings about a loss of control in their life?).
While Kris can be considered a candidate, there are other things about them being the Knight that simply don't add up. There are other people who can fulfill the role of the Knight in a more satisfying way, and who are suspicious in their own right, but I don't think we should box ourselves in to the idea that the Knight HAS to be someone we know from Hometown so far. Discussing new ideas is always a good thing, in my book.
It would make more sense if Kris became the new knight rather than the knight that kickstarted the entire plot.
3:47 why is the knight called the roaring knight like did they say yes this will be my epithet or is that what others call them. perhaps they assume or at least ralsei assumes that is the knight's motive. similar to voldemort being called the one that shall not be named. I don't think voldemort ever chose to be called that it's just what others called him.
Most of the points in this video are total junk based only on biased interpretation or are just flat out strawmen.
For just one example, at 8:40 to 9:15 when you say it's impossible for Kris to have opened the fountain in midday, which yes, it is impossible for that to be the case, *but that was never the case that Kris knight supporters argued in the first place.* Everyone who accepts that Kris Knight is possible, which it is, *argues that it would have been in the early hours of the morning that day, when it was still dark out, that it happened.* You can't just construct a strawman out of the fact that it couldn't have been done by Kris in the daylight hours and say that it "100% disproves Kris Knight". That's just arguing in bad faith.
Every other point in the video, as I said, is based only on biased, or flat out contradictory, interpretations, or is a strawman, and I will gladly explain how each point is so if anyone is interested.
I’m curious
@@IcyDiamond Which point in particular are you curious about? I can't post them all at once, that would be an enormous comment.
okay, this is my perspective pre-this-video. i also dont think kris is The Knight. sure, they are shown to be capable of creating dark fountains (end of chap 2), but the characterization given to The Knight by anyone who has met them doesnt fit my headcanon of how kris acts as a character. kris seems like this tragic wellmeaning kid who has been sucked into a stupidly highconcept story about (a TON but for this case) what it means to be the main character in a video game and the implications on free choice and autonomy. i dont think Toby would take that away from kris by making them this (from my perspective) shallow, like, twist villain? i just cant see what their motive would be from a character perspective. maybe a good motive will be brought up in this video? ok im actually gonna start watching now lol lets a go wahoo
i think toby should make the next chapter a prequel to chapter two where we just watch them slowly and painful shuffle to the library
also goodass theory
This theory is so good! One thing though, in the “a large person could fit in the closet” part, I always thought it was supposed to say that Kris could hide Berdly’s body in there after snowgrave, because I didn’t know that dialogue was there in the normal route also. When you go back to the lab after snowgrave, and berdly isn’t waking up, then I went to the closet and it said “a large body could fit in here” so I thought that would be the reason also, but it is weird it is there in the normal route also.
Kris is not the knight. Kris is *a* knight; the chessboard has more than one
Plotholes are the literary equivalent of dividing by zero.
Not sure what you mean
There's two knights. One good and one evil,it was implied in the intro of chapter 1. Kris may not be the evil knight,but they do have some strong social anxiety which is why i believe they open dark fountains.That's probably why they never go alone for too long.As for the evil red knight the most obvious fact it's not Kris is because King woulda recognized them.The Red Knight has to be a darkner because why'd a lightner want him to hate their own people? Whoever they are they're connected to Gaster since each of the secret bosses has amalgamated abilities.The secret bosses are probably darkners who don't completely melt when determined.Gaster may be neutral but whoever this possible buddy of his is evil.What do you think?
About Noelle and Berdly veing in the computer lab when the Knight was hidden, I think that there was a moment in the morning that the Knight was going to create the dark fountain there, but they noticed that someone was coming so they hid in the closet.
When Noelle and Berdly started to sleep, the Knight got his opportunity to create the dark fountain.
He probably isn't but it would be funny to see everyone reaction if Kris actually were the Knight
yeah it would take a lot of time an engery to get to the libary. so much so they would need to sleep all class to make up for it.
I like the idea of Kris being the Knight and we're working to undo what they've done while at the same time wondering if what we're doing, controlling Kris, is alright. Even though they're likely not the Knight this theme will be explored in Chapter 3 as Kris, for sure, did create this dark fountain and we're going to close it.
This is is sad I have too much free time. I wrote a lot about how Kris is the knight.
UNSTRUCTURED PART
Wow people use things in the game as evidence for them being the knight. I can't believe people make theories😎😎😎. Kris making the fountain doesn't necessarily disprove that they're not the knight. The fact that they can't survive without their soul is kinda of an assumption. For all we know they can do it just fine, or not. Kris uses plenty of time to do this. They move slowly without their soul. Just slowly. If you talk to Alphys then she'll say that there's basically no crime in hometown. You can still access the school after it's supposed to be closed. The same could very much apply to the library. That would make it quite easy for them to get through
"They did all that last night no wonder they're so tired at the start of chapter 2" Huh, I never thought about that. Thanks for more evidence
NOELLE AND BERDLY
N&B going into the computer lab while seeing it's dark isn't flimsy. What did Susie and Kris do when they went looking for chalk in chapter 1 and they came to the door? They went in anyway. They both went in confused and then fall. You wouldn't say it's out of character for Noelle cause she is into dark secrets in video games. Even then Berdly could have easily pushed her to come in, or he might have gone in first and Noelle might have gotten worried about him and gone in to get him
N&B going into the room and sitting down without falling into the dark world is pretty stupid tho. That's cause that's not how that actually happened. The location you leave the dark world isn't exactly parallel to where you fell into the dark world
Kris and Susie literally move rooms the first time they leave a dark world. That one is debatable but the second time they leave the dark world they're standing at the table while Berdly and Noelle are sleeping. Susie and Kris specifically moved. They didn't stand at the entrance. How would you be able to do that if you were frozen in place? If you stand at the place you went into the dark world when you leave as well then Kris and Susie couldn't have moved. N&B moving as well isn't unrealistic
THE F***ING CLOSET I HATE YOU!!!!!!
God this f***ing closet. I hate it so f***ing much. You can believe the Kris isn't the knight if you really want to but please don't use this as evidence cause this shit is flimsy as all hell. The knight hiding in the closet that's in the room and getting out without being noticed by N&B or the traffic jam is so dumb
You get to see what the creation of a fountain looks like at the end of C2. That would be extremely hard to not notice since they're there studying. But not apparently they fall asleep? Berdly and Noelle falling asleep and the knight making the fountain makes this even stupider. Even more stuff happened in a small amount of time. They literally went there to study. Why would they fall asleep This whole thing is being held together with duct tape
Its dumb how the Knight just happened to be there when they decided to go study there. the fact that so much happened in so little time is stupid. If Kris really is extremely slow like we see, and if it really is "a couple of hours" like you say then thats more believable cause then so much happened in a huge amount of time
(A large person could easily fit inside) refers to Berdly's supposedly dead body. It could also refer to the big boss battle you have with The Queen. I dont really like that second one tho but I'm just saying it anyway cause why not
The dialogue from Sweet Capn Cakes about Queen changing after the fountain appearing which implies that the fountain should have been open for a while instead of 10 minutes cause it doesn't make sense how so much happened so quickly
SUPPOSED BAIT AND SWITCH ENDING
God holy shit. Kris waking up at night only to eat a pie and plug in the TV and watch stuff would just be awful. It just being there for a funny haha bait and switch with not set up would be terrible writing. Why would you put plot related stuff about Kris at the f***ing ending? Twice? I don't think the pie thing was entirely bait and switch. It treats itself like it is one but there is more to it actually. Kris goes to the library and makes a fountain. Goes home, plugs in TV and eats the pie and plugs i the TV so they can turn it on later
If there's one thing people never talk about is the pie. If Kris never ate the pie then Toriel and Susie wouldn't be making a new pie together in chapter 2 while Kris is "at the toilet" cutting the tires without anyone noticing. The car not working ends up being important in the end of chapter 2 and is setting up chapter 3. Wow, it would be weird as all hell to not have chapter 1 set up the next chapter as well. With how it's structured it makes sense. Anyways Kris clearly planned this out somehow. Im not gonna say I know why. The rest of the game will
The opening with text could very much be an earlier memory maybe. It's very clearly not what Toriel is saying to Kris. At least C1. It would be fitting with the bait and switch. I feel like there's more to these intros and endings
THE KNIGHT DIDN'T TALK WITH THE QUEEN OR KING
The Knight not leaving the closet before Kris and Susie come but before the dark fountain might seem plausible but I can do you one better. What if the knight never entered the fountains right after their creation?
The Queen says that she just assumed what the knight wanted from their actions. This could very heavily imply that she didn't meet the knight. It's weird how Toby In the Undertale 6th anniversary stream Toby Fox casually says that the dark fountain is somehow responsible for making the King act differently from what he did before. This is pretty similar to what Sweet Capn Cakes said about the Queen changing because of the fountain. It could very much mean that neither of them met the knight. Its actually the fountain changing them
It actually makes sense that the knight never talked to the darkners. For you to leave a dark world you would have to seal the fountain. If they made the fountain when N&B were there then the fountain wouldn't be there anymore. The knight could have been hiding in the dark world then gotten out of there after the fountain is sealed but they would have been noticed
The knight is probably a lightener after all so they can move stuff around in the rooms. If you interact with the laptop after leaving the library dark world then it says that someone left it on. That's similar to what happened at the end of Chapter 2 when Kris turned on the TV. They now that they can move stuff around. There is some dialogue that shows that the other kings might not have met the knight either. Seam says "But, recently, a strange knight appeared... And three of the kings were locked away". Its pretty vague but with how it's worded you can interpret it as the knight moving the cards they are in the light world. You also move the stuff in the card kingdom and cyber city to the supply closet.
A RESPONSE TO A RESPONSE TO A VIDEO
Toby Fox didnt need them to be asleep for them to believe that they were just dreaming. They might have thought about it but they were told that it was all a dream by Susie. Susie also questioned if what she experienced was fake. Despite moving rooms she was still sceptical. N&B were shocked and thinking about. Even then, it was getting late and they were a bit off schedule. They didnt really have time to think. I dont really have a point for why they were asleep besides "Ralsei does spell" cause I heard some people really say that. Them falling asleep and it never being addressed is honestly less flimsy than them hiding in the closet for me
I don't know how "If you would replay the game after its revealed that Kris is actually the knight then people would realize that it doesn't make sense and that Toby just made it up" is related to the sleeping. I actually laughed at this sorry. Kris being the knight was literally the first thing everyone thought at the chapter 2 ending. Theres plenty of set up for it to "make sense"
Watched a bit of the knight video. All Ill say is the colouring of the man and the knight when Seam talked were different. It implies theyre different
I dont think Ralsei say he sensed the fountain disproves it. You're right about him not telling the truth a lot of the time. Could very much apply here as well
"It wasnt until the dark fountain showed up" is one of the lines I referred to. It must have been hours between this. I dont think it would take them weeks. It would have to have been long enough for it to be considered a problem to them. I dont necessarily believe in the way time works like he says in his video but those lines of dialogue are still important evidence. You might call that line of dialogue obscure but its important enough for Toby to say the same about King
"Today" as in a day, as in 24 hours. It was around 12 hours between the creation of the fountain and Queen saying the obscure line since it took probably somewhere around the middle of the day. The way time works or whatever doesn't really disprove my evidence anyway. Kris wouldnt need weeks
SPECULATION PART
I only have speculation for Kris stepping away from the door. Maybe it's Gaster related. Maybe Dess and Kris went through the bunker or something together. It could be Kris feeling their trauma. Dess got lost but Kris survived. This could be the motivation? Kris trying to save Dess. It explains why they still go on after snowgrave. It would tie some things plot wise. Gaster's role in the story, the Dreemur and Holiday family drama and the knight plot line. It becomes more connected thus better story
ENDING
I care too much about this. There are typo mybe. I have more thoughts on Kris is not the knight but they werent mentioned. Alright little video 🐐
Technically there could be multiple Knights if this is true which I think it is. I only think there's one so far.
I offer a theory the closet line refers to Spamton Neo in Queen's Basement. It is said the closet has old Electronics, things you put in the Basement, and Neo suit is from a past game.
Further. the NEO makes Spamton [Big]/Large. It is supposed to make him Large enough to see pass the Dark, maybe enough to make him literally appear in the actual closet.
This would make the line apply to both routes.
Guys, stop being jerks.
Toby Fox is The Knight. He was in the library, so he created it when everyone left.
berdly will probably convince nowell that the lights are of and they should turn on the switch thats in character of him. yeah i dont have an argument against the books but i still think it the chapter one end cutscene was pointless without them opening a fountain. what did they do after that cutscene?
Regarding how Frisk leaves The Underground during the Neutral endings. I'm rertain I've seen a screenshot of an EMail of that exact question which Toby answered back in 2015/2016. Apparently, the six human souls allowed Frisk to leave The Underground.
Sadly, I haven't been able to find this screenshot again. I've looked for it a few times already over the years.
Major question, could the closet room be the spawn point of the fountain and it just leaks out?
Also leaving the door open would push me into thinking that the roaring isnt contained by a numeral limit, but more of a aerial infection type deal. Thoughts?
I am still on the camp that the Knight isn't a character we've met yet, and the revela wilk be that.. its nobody we recognize
Or, alternatively, it's going to be a situation where the characters have no clue who it is, but WE, Undertale players, do, but itd have to be hard to pull off given Knight theories have proposed about everyone as the Knight
Hey, what was that song playing at ~10:00? It sounds like either Celeste or Epic Battle Fantasy, but because of how faint it is I can't tell which.
Despite disagreeing with you, I'd like to thank you for being respectful, good debate is always welcome. Either way, Kris Knight is pretty much certain to be either confirmed or debunked in Chapter 3. If a single Darkner in CH3 says that the Knight created this world, then Kris Knight is hard confirmed, or on the other hand, if they refer to the creator of the world by some different title like "Squire", then it's hard debunked. Unless Toby deliberately keeps things vague, of course...
OMFG I thought the knocking at the beginning was happening in real life and had to check if someone was knocking at my window
That's a heck of a find with that queen dialogue. I do fear the Kris knight theory is in shambles.