"...The Church is not to be a national community like the old Israel, but a community of believers without political or national ties. The old Israel had been both - the chosen people of God and a national community, and it was therefore his will that they should meet force with force. But with the Church it is different: it has abandoned political and national status..." Dietrich Bonhoeffer, "Discipleship," 1937
Nic Raphael I totally agree. Look at Northern Ireland. Ian Paisley propounding the state as the last bastion of Protestantism like Calvin's Geneva caused us so many issues. Conflating national identity with theology is not a good idea and I believe that it is even unbiblical.
I have NEVER heard anyone say that they thought that God had a special covenantal relationship with America. (Is that a strawman argument?) On the other hand, I have heard and read many people who have said that the Founding Fathers had a general Christian worldview of the world which informed their thinking so that they supported many Biblical principles in American society and government, and thus we were founded as a "Christian nation."
mydh122 In Evangelical circles it is believed that God established America to be used to spread the Gospel. Therefore they DO believe it was chosen by the hand if God
That is NOT the same as Moore saying that people believe that America is in a special COVENANT relationship with God. EVERY church in EVERY nation is supposed to spread the gospel. Britain did it before America and now Korea is doing a better job, per capita, than us. He used a strawman argument. I graduated from a large evangelical seminary over 40 years ago and have been teaching during all that time. People that I know believe that our sovereign God uses the USA (like He has also used other countries), but that the only covenant relationship that God has is with His people, the Church.
I believe that I now understand that whenever I said that “America is a Christian nation,” I was in fact referring that America is a *Christlike* nation in the technical sense.
no, No and NO! Let's run down a list of specific facts as to why not. The Declaration of Independence of the United States Although arguably religious language is used, the exact words used were deistic in nature. "Creator" is used as a general term. No specific religion is mentioned in the document, nor does the document reference Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, its author, was a Deist, and vehemently opposed to orthodox Christianity, and the supernatural in general. In actuality these concepts of Natural Rights are not to be found in traditional Christian writings. The idea that all human beings are equal by nature comes from the Greek sophists and was first planted by the Roman jurist Ulpian in Roman law: “quod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales sunt” - according to the law of nature, all human beings are equal. The Constitution contains no religious language The text of the Constitution contains no references to Yahweh, Jesus Christ, or Christianity. Instead there is specific language barring religion being a factor of governance. As stated in Article VI Paragraph 3: ... no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. If we are a Christian nation, then why doesn’t our Constitution say so? There have been several prominent and exhaustive efforts to try and amend the Constitution to include specific Christian language, just as the currency and pledge of allegiance were edited. These efforts began as early as 1864 and have continued as recently as the 1960s. All efforts on this front failed horribly despite strong and persistent lobbying efforts. The failed 1864 amendment proposal: We, the People of the United States [recognizing the being and attributes of Almighty God, the Divine Authority of the Holy Scriptures, the law of God as the paramount rule, and Jesus, the Messiah, the Savior and Lord of all], in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, provide for the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and to our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
In prophesying against varied nations for varied sins, Amos does make a distinction between the varied pagan nations mentioned on the one side and Israel on the other, holding Israel alone (or here its northern kingdom plus Judah) accountable for violations of the Mosaic Law. But are the sins of these pagan nations based on ethical standards incoherent with those at least implied in the law of Moses? Not likely, as for example comparison with Rom. 1 suggests. There is only one living God; the rest are idols (cf. Ezek. 25). In some sense, arguably derived from obligations inherent in the divine act of creation, Isaiah remarks in apocalyptic fashion after condemning many nations of the day (chs. 13-23) that "The earth lies defiled under its inhabitants; for they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse devours the earth ..." (24:5-6a). And again, contrary to their duty, "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed" (Ps. 2:2). Etc. Or on a flip side, the LORD awarded the spoils of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar because his army sacked Tyre "for Me [the LORD]," Ezek. 29:18-20)--sounding rather like blessings of God for obedience in covenant terms. So are all nations (leaving Israel aside for the moment) God's covenant nations? Apparently yes, though not in salvific terms; there is no sacrifice for sins even implicit in such covenants, but only condemnation for violation of divine law, divine morality, and for the worship of that which God is not--though also occasionally even blessings in broad terms for obedience. The US is a covenant nation in the sense that all nations are, particularly in being subject to divine judgment, though it is also not a Christian nation (in the sense of being like Israel) save perhaps in the coincidental sense Moore suggests of its past when the Christian church proportionately had greater influence for good even in some of its laws.
This country may not be united as a Christian nation because Christianity is not united. A country nurtured by a Greco-Roman philosophy may keep safe religious freedom. The majority does not define a nation, that’s the same as saying statistics tells the whole story. In Numbers, a Jewish text, G-d counts each and every person, regardless of their nationhood. We are more than our tribal or national affiliation. G-d created humans to share work and protect their wellbeing.
Just because he is saying what you think? Most likely. This guy is right on very little, and wrong on many. That's the way Satan works, a little truth with a lot of lies mixed in.
Historical documents say that we're not a Christian nation. "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" 1st Amendment "The government of the United States of America was in no sense founded upon Christianity" The Treaty of Tripoli
Wow! Talk about twisting the 1st. Amendment. The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws that regulate an establishment of religion, or that prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the freedom of assembly, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791. It was written in because they came from England that had a Government established Church, and that was the only one that was allowed.
Dr Moore is very wrong about 2 Chronicles and other Old Testament passages. All the promises are yes and amen in Christ Jesus. We claim the promises from the old covenant by faith. Old Testament healing promises as well as others and also the New Testament promises. This doesn’t mean America is the new Israel, it is simply how God deals with nations. He healed Nineveh when they turned from their wicked ways and humbled themselves. “Righteousness exalteth a nation but sin is a reproach to any people”. By the way Protestants have always regarded Biblical promises this way as well as the apostles. Paul himself says when quoting” you shall not muzzle an oxe while treading the grain” that this was written for our sakes and not theirs( Old Testament Hebrews) and that it taught preachers to live off of their preaching.
Such a very simple, direct, and good video. Keep up the good work.
Bravo
"...The Church is not to be a national community like the old Israel, but a community of believers without political or national ties. The old Israel had been both - the chosen people of God and a national community, and it was therefore his will that they should meet force with force. But with the Church it is different: it has abandoned political and national status..."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, "Discipleship," 1937
Nic Raphael I totally agree. Look at Northern Ireland. Ian Paisley propounding the state as the last bastion of Protestantism like Calvin's Geneva caused us so many issues. Conflating national identity with theology is not a good idea and I believe that it is even unbiblical.
Spot on Andy, couldn't agree more. Is Ireland close to returning to that at all? Or are we safe
Nic Raphael Not really like that in the Republic of Ireland any more but some in Northern Ireland which is part of the UK still have that mentality.
Dr. Moore again brings much needed biblical sanity to this whole issue. Amen.
I have NEVER heard anyone say that they thought that God had a special covenantal relationship with America. (Is that a strawman argument?) On the other hand, I have heard and read many people who have said that the Founding Fathers had a general Christian worldview of the world which informed their thinking so that they supported many Biblical principles in American society and government, and thus we were founded as a "Christian nation."
mydh122 In Evangelical circles it is believed that God established America to be used to spread the Gospel. Therefore they DO believe it was chosen by the hand if God
That is NOT the same as Moore saying that people believe that America is in a special COVENANT relationship with God. EVERY church in EVERY nation is supposed to spread the gospel. Britain did it before America and now Korea is doing a better job, per capita, than us. He used a strawman argument. I graduated from a large evangelical seminary over 40 years ago and have been teaching during all that time. People that I know believe that our sovereign God uses the USA (like He has also used other countries), but that the only covenant relationship that God has is with His people, the Church.
It's not an "issue". The United States in NOT a christian nation. It's a secular republic. Always has been and always will be.
Thanks so much for this!
I believe that I now understand that whenever I said that “America is a Christian nation,” I was in fact referring that America is a *Christlike* nation in the technical sense.
no, No and NO!
Let's run down a list of specific facts as to why not.
The Declaration of Independence of the United States
Although arguably religious language is used, the exact words used were deistic in nature. "Creator" is used as a general term. No specific religion is mentioned in the document, nor does the document reference Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, its author, was a Deist, and vehemently opposed to orthodox Christianity, and the supernatural in general. In actuality these concepts of Natural Rights are not to be found in traditional Christian writings. The idea that all human beings are equal by nature comes from the Greek sophists and was first planted by the Roman jurist Ulpian in Roman law: “quod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales sunt” - according to the law of nature, all human beings are equal.
The Constitution contains no religious language
The text of the Constitution contains no references to Yahweh, Jesus Christ, or Christianity. Instead there is specific language barring religion being a factor of governance. As stated in Article VI Paragraph 3:
... no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
If we are a Christian nation, then why doesn’t our Constitution say so?
There have been several prominent and exhaustive efforts to try and amend the Constitution to include specific Christian language, just as the currency and pledge of allegiance were edited. These efforts began as early as 1864 and have continued as recently as the 1960s. All efforts on this front failed horribly despite strong and persistent lobbying efforts.
The failed 1864 amendment proposal:
We, the People of the United States [recognizing the being and attributes of Almighty God, the Divine Authority of the Holy Scriptures, the law of God as the paramount rule, and Jesus, the Messiah, the Savior and Lord of all], in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, provide for the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and to our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
WOW.
great distinction. nations cannot be christian or not. individuals are!
as always, Russ schooling folks!!!!
In prophesying against varied nations for varied sins, Amos does make a distinction between the varied pagan nations mentioned on the one side and Israel on the other, holding Israel alone (or here its northern kingdom plus Judah) accountable for violations of the Mosaic Law. But are the sins of these pagan nations based on ethical standards incoherent with those at least implied in the law of Moses? Not likely, as for example comparison with Rom. 1 suggests. There is only one living God; the rest are idols (cf. Ezek. 25). In some sense, arguably derived from obligations inherent in the divine act of creation, Isaiah remarks in apocalyptic fashion after condemning many nations of the day (chs. 13-23) that "The earth lies defiled under its inhabitants; for they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse devours the earth ..." (24:5-6a). And again, contrary to their duty, "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed" (Ps. 2:2). Etc. Or on a flip side, the LORD awarded the spoils of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar because his army sacked Tyre "for Me [the LORD]," Ezek. 29:18-20)--sounding rather like blessings of God for obedience in covenant terms. So are all nations (leaving Israel aside for the moment) God's covenant nations? Apparently yes, though not in salvific terms; there is no sacrifice for sins even implicit in such covenants, but only condemnation for violation of divine law, divine morality, and for the worship of that which God is not--though also occasionally even blessings in broad terms for obedience. The US is a covenant nation in the sense that all nations are, particularly in being subject to divine judgment, though it is also not a Christian nation (in the sense of being like Israel) save perhaps in the coincidental sense Moore suggests of its past when the Christian church proportionately had greater influence for good even in some of its laws.
So in other words, this guy is saying we are a Christian nation because HE thinks so.
This country may not be united as a Christian nation because Christianity is not united. A country nurtured by a Greco-Roman philosophy may keep safe religious freedom. The majority does not define a nation, that’s the same as saying statistics tells the whole story. In Numbers, a Jewish text, G-d counts each and every person, regardless of their nationhood.
We are more than our tribal or national affiliation. G-d created humans to share work and protect their wellbeing.
Good for this man telling the Truth and not playing to his audience’s egoism
Just because he is saying what you think? Most likely. This guy is right on very little, and wrong on many. That's the way Satan works, a little truth with a lot of lies mixed in.
Historical documents say that we're not a Christian nation.
"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" 1st Amendment
"The government of the United States of America was in no sense founded upon Christianity" The Treaty of Tripoli
Wow! Talk about twisting the 1st. Amendment. The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws that regulate an establishment of religion, or that prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the freedom of assembly, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791. It was written in because they came from England that had a Government established Church, and that was the only one that was allowed.
Dr Moore is very wrong about 2 Chronicles and other Old Testament passages. All the promises are yes and amen in Christ Jesus. We claim the promises from the old covenant by faith. Old Testament healing promises as well as others and also the New Testament promises. This doesn’t mean America is the new Israel, it is simply how God deals with nations. He healed Nineveh when they turned from their wicked ways and humbled themselves. “Righteousness exalteth a nation but sin is a reproach to any people”.
By the way Protestants have always regarded Biblical promises this way as well as the apostles. Paul himself says when quoting” you shall not muzzle an oxe while treading the grain” that this was written for our sakes and not theirs( Old Testament Hebrews) and that it taught preachers to live off of their preaching.
this guy is a total liar :O