Josh Sullivan doesn't understand Alternate History
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- In this video I react to @JoshSullivanHistory 's CZcams's Alternate History CRISIS, and Why It Matters - • CZcams's Alternate Hi... . I explain why I think he is wrong and show how most of his points don't make sense. For that I use logical thinking and determinism. Determinism is the philosophical view that all events in the universe, including human decisions and actions, are causally inevitable. It means that everything that happens is predetermined by previously existing causes, such as the laws of nature, physics, geography, or HISTORY.
More specifically I first disprove that an alternate history can be "accrete" or "historical". There is no other point of comparison for accuracy other than history but if we use history as a point of comparison than the accuracy of an alternate history is determined by ho similar to owe history it is - winch is misguided. Than I go on to disprove his claims that Alternate History can be dangerous and that Possible History's videos are "Artificial History". If this interests you watch the video till the end.
CHAPTERS
00:00 INTRO
00:31 - determinism, what's possible or not
04:32 - what is alternate history
06:58 - can alternate history be accurate ?
11:11 - can alternate history be dangerous?
16:36 - alternate history is "artificial history"
TAGS
#alternatehistory #possiblehistory #crisis
Tell me if you agree or disagree with my opinion on Josh's video!
I like how you think about this-it's a shame this debate even has to happen, to be honest.
@@jonahmsl8612 Yhe I wish we all could just get along
Completely agree
I actually agree with a lot of the points you made in your arguments. But to be honest I'm not that surprised there is such a debate.
I think all opinions would be right in this scenario, but I believe that this will likely only will or be over faster if this is discussed more privately
So funny that he just releases a video like Mussolini becoming an Islamic prophet and then starts going on about how alt history needs to be accurate
Or his New Religious war thanks to lack of an Anschluss
It was a joke he mentioned it
It was a joke
@@ZDagenaisquebecnationaliste doesn’t matter no alternate history is serious because it isn’t true, a semi-ridiculous scenario is just as unserious as a “probable” or outwardly insane one
@@lbgamer6166 same thing as what he criticises, with it being even further from possibility, cause at least possible history applies realistic logic, when it's not an April fools
Josh when a video titled “What if everything went PERFECT for ______” is a scenario about everything going perfect for _____:
>:(
💀
I very much agree with you. Josh is really doubling down and not apologizing for anything he did. These people are beyond belief. They take their shitty youtube “career” way too seriously. It shows the enormous ego Josh and his crowd has. Like he needs to come clean to how he acted and mend the relationships he burnt to the ground.
Not to be overly speculative but I think he is just trying to find something to dislike in the videos of people he already doesn't like. I don't think it's the other way around and he doesn't like PH because his videos are "unrealistic".
Josh's career is the only thing he really has and with his low views, he is doing it because its his passion. Like any annoying person who's really passionate in something they take it too seriously. After all look at us taking this spiteful drama too seriously. Its clear from how Josh acts he has had bad blood with Possible history for ages especially when Possible history was bragging about his success and was happy that Mr.Z was failing. This drama really made me think less of them both. However the greater alternate history CZcams sphere have been the least toxic and most understanding community dealing with this heated drama.
@@erikgat7640 Well Possible History and other “mainstream” alt history youtubers have been extremely respectful to josh’s outbursts and I think it shows the pettiness and childishness of Josh and his companions
@@Porphyrios.History Yeah he probably is just trying to find something he dislikes. I just don’t see how he can’t see how he’s acted affects his channel. His views have plummeted. I don’t know if it’s just like he can’t see what he did, like he’s blinded by emotion or what. But like come on man.
I would also say that due to josh's definition of "artificial history" it would mean that one of the most lore driven alternative history mods Kaiserreich would be considered as "artificial history" due to it being a hoi4 mod
Yhe exactly. Kaiserreich is a very good example of an comprehensive alternate history!
To be fair kaiserreich lore doesn't have the best reasoning. Their explanation for Bolsheviks losing civil war is just Germany supporting white movement, that wanted Russia to continue the war against Germany, and doesn't change any things that increased popularity of Bolsheviks
I just realized josh is basically making the same arguement fredda did
I am not really sure what Freddas argument I watched that video a while ago
which
About?
The south actually had an extremely centralized and vertical power structure near the end of the civil war, and many documents and letters collected now suggest it may have gotten even worse were the south victorious
Could be true. I am not very read on the Civil War and America in that time frame itself.
@@Porphyrios.History I recommend a series called checkmate lincolites by atun shei films, very in depths series about the civil war if you are interested
I honestly stopped watching a lot of alternate history channels because of said issue, one channel i remember said something dumb like "I don't see an alternate scenario where the British would win the American war of independence" whereas the truth is so many things could go differently to give different outcomes hence the whole reason of "alternate history" so it's good to randomly come across a channel that fully understands the concept.
I am glad you agree with my philosophy on making althis. Yhe when someone doesn't like anything that diverges too much fro history you have to wonder why the are making althis vids in the first place.
He basically described the Southern Victory series written by Harry Turtledove. In that series, the South wind and eventually does become fascist and tries to conquer the North.
The difference is that Turtledove doesn't pretend its realistic
Not every alternate history scenario is realistic. The point was that he was describing something hypothetical and ridiculous.@@LordValorum
I think people like to think that events in our timeline were meant to happen almost like a sort of bias. Let's say WW2 a lot of people like to say the axis couldn't have won the war and while I agree it wasn't very likely much crazier things have happened historically. Like think about it if you told someone in Eastern Europe in 1200 that nomadic steepe horseman from thousands of miles away were going to conquer them soon they would laugh it off. Even the smallest of factors can cause empires to fall or never rise in the first place. Anyways this means that in a way even our own history is not "accurate". And yes I know some of this is just reiterating the points you made in the video but I just wanted to mention this bias I feel people have.
You are definitely correct! We tend to only restrict possibility to what happen in owe time line but with sufficient enough "change"/difference a lot of strange and unimaginable things would become reality. I don't really get what you mean when you say our history isn't accurate though?
@@Porphyrios.HistoryI think they're trying to say that many improbable things have happened in history. If they were instead presented as an alt hist scenario they would be dismissed as unbelievable.
As for their example, though, I dont buy it. There are many examples of horse nomads from the eurasian steppe migrating around and conquering "civilized" people. Huns, Avars, Seljuks, Turks, Manchus, etc. Sure, the mongols were the most successful, but that doesnt make it unbelievable.
@@Porphyrios.History I meant it more so in context to how Josh uses it to mean likely
Yhe actually true there are many unexpected and unlikely events in history
@@Porphyrios.History I think he meant to describe likely as believability. In many good stories their is logical progression in plot and their videos out their to make believable fiction. A great example of impossible alternate history would be the Roman Empire in 117 Ad conquer the Han and then colonizing the moon in a matter of three years. Their so many factors make it impossible from technology to logistics and the people who play a role in it all. The only way this could happen if there was a secret Alien civilization in Egypt that used things called stargates and were kind enough to share their knowledge.
I feel like Josh is becoming the right wing Fredda
Wdym by that?
@@Porphyrios.History because, like fredda, he is making bs accusations to favor him and his friends and paint the other alt history channels as bad in a very childish way that also makes very little sense and is hypocritical.
This is exactly how I view and approach alternate history! If anything I'm more liberal with the idea that you can make an alternate history scenario solely out of legitimate speculation or map painting.
At it's core, alt-history is just fiction and there's no changing that fact. And it's this fact which is why there's so many interpretations of the genre, because fiction is a space where we can be creative, and we all have different thought processes and other variables which influence that "What If?" question.
Alt-history isn't just being historical or entertaining, those are options no doubt, but rather it's exploring speculation about a particular point in history and how or what changing it's outcome/s may entail. A scenario could have logical reasoning for it's divergence or have no reasoning at all! And thats okay. So long as you're not purposely spreading misinformation then its harmless, no matter how wild the scenario is!
For example, Pax Britannica is a scenario in which Britain never loses in the American Revolution. And yet by 1933 the world already has its hands on technologies like cybernetic augmentations, tesla energy, powered armour and even genetic engineering! While still retaining a steam and dieselpunk aesthetic.
It isn't as historically plausible as, say Germany winning WW1, but it is still alternate history nonetheless. Admittedly i don't know the extent of the PB timeline.
In short, I agree with a lot of what's said in this video. There isn't anything wrong with making alternate history historical or entertaining, but we shouldn't treat scenario's that are a bit more wilder any less than a scenario with a lot more plausibility.
I don't normally write paragraphs but considering I have a passion for alternate history I couldn't help but do so.
Very well said! Arguing over "realistic" vs "non realistic" is like arguing that murder mystery novels are better than sci-fi novels. At the end of the day it's up to taste.
I get you. I was also surprised at how long my video ended up being.
Damn, didn't think you would reply to this! Although I ain't complaining.
But yeah, it does just boil down to individual opinion. So long as you're not actively spreading misinformation or whatnot then it's all just fun and games.
I love to read what people have to say so I actually enjoy long comments. So thanks for commenting! Also facts.
The unfortunate thing is as alternate history becomes more popular, the distinctions of what makes history, alternate history, and the possibility and likelyhood of events or how inevitable or uninevitable certain aspects of our history, and way of live shall become a growing problem. Determinism and the belief or lack there of in it is just one of many axis in this regard to this issue and its only gonna get worse and has already divided other communities at least interested in history or alternate history and if anything im more surprised this kind of drama was not a bigger problem sooner.
And I dont even want to even start on how certain political beliefs and ideologies look at certain things as the natural or inevitable progression of events if not now then some time later or how such will believe something is more likely then something else from there own individual ideological lens, something we are all ultimately guilty of to at least some degree.
I disagree whit this Josh guy because the point of alternate history is to be the answer to the question "What would happen if...". Alternate history is sometimes created for learning, but other times it can be used for entertainment.
I agree
josh is just yapping cos he dont wannna admit he was being an immature child
On an unrelated note, Josh made a video, calling the Portuguese dictator António de Oliveira Salazar, who had a framed picture of Il Duce on his wall a *HERO!!!*
Josh is being a petulant child he should have resolved this in private
Well, since none of the other youtubers made a South Sudan Video (shame), what would've been your scenario IF the others did make South sudan videos? just curious.
IDK maybe they unite with Ethiopia and go on a crusade? I think we were supposed to make a one South Sudan video but it's just by everyone.
@@Porphyrios.History A interesting video idea could be What if the South Sudanese war escalated into a "African world war". with Sudan, eithopia and somalia, Kenya supporting the SPLM, while Egypt, Libya, Eritrea, Djibouti and Uganda supporting south sudan. it could've been an interesting idea, and it nearly did escalate into that late december.
IDK I am not sure if making an althis scenarios on such recent events is a good idea. The subject might be sensitive for a lot of people and the fact that scenario is kinda implying the suffering or even death of people the are alive right now and might even be watching the video will relay bring the mood down. I find people can often begin to be to objective to geopolitical affairs when the gain more knowledge about politics, history and how war works - so we tend to forget that real peoples lives might be ruined. I noticed that bout myself when I made my video about the Essequibo crisis. I was trying to be objective and speculate on how thugs might go, how likely was a war and what wold happen if there was one. At firs I was confused why so many people from Guyana were upset with me but I later realized that in that situation you wold rather hear that war is 100% impossible even if it's a lie. This kina got dark at the end but yhe. I wold love to hear what your opinion is on this?
@@Porphyrios.History ah, i see. Indeed, yes, these are quite tragic event's. I really do wish for these thing's to end. I do understand your hesitancy, and i respect that. You brought a good point. I never really thought of it that way, and i'm facepalming myself for not thinking this.
i'm sorry if anything i said anything that offended you. Otherwise, keep making bangers and have a good day.
Nha man I can't hold anything against you. Its sort of the perspective you gain once you are the one making the video. I hope you have a great day too!
I don't think people should be hasty to smash somebody's opinion without even talking to the person in question. There's nothing wrong with exclaiming what one thinks about the topic, but completely denouncing a man in the title is a bit low. What I mean to say is that Josh is allowed to feel the way that he does, and it's not like there aren't respectful ways to go about stating one's own opinion. It's clear Josh feels very passionate about the topic, while it's important to note where someone falls short of their argument, let it be known that it's not gonna erase their entire argument or opinion for that matter, being dismissive and even plain toxic as I've seen people in the comments be, that's not an excuse, that's just taking a moral high ground and ganging up on someone because one believes the person's argument in question is completely invalid. In the wise words of Sun Tzu "Leaders must demonstrate respect for those with whom they interact. This applies to subordinates, peers, and competitors.". Treat others as you would have them treat you.
Having a conversation with the person you are dissuading with is a ridiculous criteria in my opinion - my video is a critique of another public video. There once you publish something you are taking the risk of being criticized. I suppose "completely denouncing" can be understood differently by different people but I don't think I am. I do think his argument about althis are illogical therefore I do think he is wrong. I never attack Josh himself or his character. I dont consider him not understanding althis an attack since as you said at the end of the day my video is also an opinion (we are discussing an abstract point so proving one right is impossible).
"It's clear Josh feels very passionate about the topic, while it's important to note where someone falls short of their argument, let it be known that it's not gonna erase their entire argument or opinion for that matter, being dismissive and even plain toxic as I've seen people in the comments be, that's not an excuse, that's just taking a moral high ground and ganging up on someone because one believes the person's argument in question is completely invalid." - Reading part of your comment relay makes me feel you didn't actuality watch the video to the end. I don't feel like what you are saying applies to my video at all.
I don't want you to take this as an attack I don't have bad feelings about Josh or fans. I also don't consider myself as part of any "team". I am simply trying to point out what I think is right in this comment and in the video.
@@Porphyrios.History You’ve hit the nail on the head, I apologize for the rude rant, it wasn’t really directed towards you specifically, I literally just saw your video and quite frankly just threw my own principles out the window just cause I was to lazy to watch the video. I really appreciate your response and sincerity, it’s honestly refreshing to read such a realistic responses from a content creator, once more I’m very sorry for assuming, I’ve read many comments on various videos about this and some of them just seemed very offensive, I’m sorry for directing that towards you though, and thank you for pointing out where I feel short in my comment, I really appreciate it!
It's all good, I am relay glad we could find common ground! Even when you admit your first comment didn't relay apply to my video I still feel you were being reasonable and didn't just attack me. CZcams can defiantly be a hostile place even in our small community and as you said we should try to be respectful and not immediately denounce and cancel someone who's opinion we disagree with.
@@Porphyrios.HistoryI’m very glad you see what I was trying to say. I finally watched the actual video and I honestly thought it was great. I subscribed to your channel because of this very level headed conversation. Thank you for doing what you do, it’s really inspiring!
Hey porphyrios History , what's your least favorite alt-hist scenario(s) ?
If you are asking whats my least favorite of my own scenarios its probably what if Poland and Germany were allies because I relay rushed its development. If you are asking in general I am not so sure. I don't relay like the types of videos that don't have many maps or are more political. What about you whats your least favorite?
@@Porphyrios.History great answer mat , my least favourite scenario has got to be something that's somewhat common or cliche like "What if Nazi germany won" , l'm more of s fan of something radical or unheard of like "what if the native americans were as / more advanced than the europeans" or "what if Zoroastrianism was still the dominant religion in persia , and it replacing islam in central asia'' .
"what if the native americans were as / more advanced than the europeans" - this sounds rely fun. I might make something like that!
@@Porphyrios.History thanks man , l appreciate it , your chanell has a lot of potential from what l can see/tell , keep it up .
@@KougarManx468 What about if the Vandals were able to hold North Africa for longer or What if the Chinese didnt stop developing gunpowder technology and the printing press.
Dude, you're overthinking it.
I don't think I am
Josh is overthinking
unrelated but what is your opinion on burkina faso
In general or about recent events?
@@Porphyrios.History in general
I am not very opinionated it doesn't seem too different from the other African nations in its region
All alt history videos at this point are super unrealistic even if its alt history the events that lead up after the alt history twist of a video are still painfully unrealistic
There is a reason why the "Whatifalthist Neo-Ottoman Empire sure to become a reality in the future 100% became a meme. The monsieur z, whatifalthist and JoshSullivan "team" (not so sure they are a team or clique or communativ but whatev) are over confident in their prediction power.
I actually liked whatifalthist alternate history scenarios for quite a while I whould disagree with him on outcomes about modren history but I found them quite enjoyable as he had the will to actually go quite deep and quite far from ancient point of divergence. But then he switched to apply the principles he were using for alt-hist to future predictions of the world, and everything went downhill, and now he is just a mediocre conservative political analyst. You can also create future history scenario but when you're like "yeah this is deffinitely what will happen i'm smort u.u'" people will laugh at you. Weather forecast is already a very complex science but History forecast is sooo much above that i think no one is really capable of doing it. Some analyst, writers etc were right about stuff like Jules Verne made some very accurate prediction in his "Paris in the 20th century" or how Friedman presumably "predicted" the fall of the Soviet Union, but then i'm very not so sure any of his predictions in the Next 100 years will come to fruition, and many of the Jules Verne's prediction in "Paris" did not and the right prediction by these authors are just a few lucky ones in a sea of wrong prediction of the future.
And this is just for Future prediction where as you said with weather forcast we can actually compare to what actually ends up happening. Alt History is even worse as unless we invent a warp gun to go to other universes there is no way we can ever test our hypothesis. Alternate History always have been fiction with mostly and entertainment value and maybe some philosiphical ones created by flawed humans and if you think you're so smart you can bypass these flaws you are mistaken and you have lost the plot to me. And then if you go down from your tower on people that are just like "here some fun musing i did. it's not realistic i know it but i think it's still interesting." telling them "StOp MaKiNg FiCtIoN" just because they made a bit fun of your *fiction* and don't want to let things go when they apologize you've doubly lost the plot to me.
You're comparison with prediction's are interesting it's a good way to showcase how unlikely is it you can actually predict something in the future and let alone alternate future. I am glad you also have an opinion on the subject and that you agree with some of my points!
would you agree that some histories are based around no notion in which it wouldn't be history considering you are making your own notion.
and if you were forced to have the premise on a certain year, you would be instead forced on taking a pre-existing notion as your basis?
Wasnt bro hating on possible history for alt history
Yhe
STICKING UR GYATT FOR THE RIZZLER
💀
☠️
Real
Damn, I was watching the video and both of my shoelaces untied. What are the chances of that?
Is this a metaphor for something lol
@@Porphyrios.History No it's 100% real, just trust me
Mental Jackets...
?
If you asked what is a mental jacket. It is a senseless binding of the mind into the analysis of topics that waste its time. Once the function of posibilites collapse into a reality based in an incomprehensible array of factors, entertaining alternatives or even explaining the possible ways of interpreting such possibilities is a waste of time. Or a poor attempt at a work of fiction. I think. And ultimately, reality exists once an event happens. The "truth" about said event is but an idea formed by the beholder at the convenience of the moment.@@Porphyrios.History
How the hell is that orca talking????
sonar?
Big w
I also liked his videos before. But now? i honestly can't bring myself to watch him knowing how perpetulant and insufferable he's been lately.
Yhe its kind of weird when the author - consume barrier is broke if that makes sense
He's scared of the fact that there are people who make better Alternate History scenarios than him.
>hears European accent
>turns off video
Mfr aren't you a crusader?
Bros hates his own accent
He’s just trying to justify his 5 minute of recaps for 3 minutes of scenarios.
of course Josh doesn't understand Alternate History., he spends 65% of his videos explaining original history recap and 35% video going into alternate history.