Vortec's VS Camel-Humps!
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
- SBC Head shoot out Part 2
Heres one for the Old school boys!
Stock Vortec Heads VS Stock Camel Humps Vs Ported 2.02 Camel Humps!
Very good info, Real flow data!
-906 Vortecs off a GM 5.7 Truck
-Stock 462 Camel hump heads (stock valves)
-462 Camel hump heads, 2.02/1.6 valves with professional street/strip porting.
More flow videos in the works! How to Port vortecs! and the SBC head shoot out!
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This is seriously the most useful head porting/comparison i've ever seen done. I really hope you show some of the technique on the porting because i think that's what scares most of us. Appreciate the content and keep it coming!
Thanks for that feedback man!
I will be posting exactly how I ported them and the flow numbers I get.
The biggest thing I've found is that you can easily "over port" vortec heads and I believe most guys do.
So you guys can learn on what I've tried and take the fear out of doing some porting on your own heads
Cheers!
Get the book power secrets from smokey yunick.....alot of knowledge in there and the only one that explains the dos & donts of head & intake porting.
Smokey built his own indy car in the 60s a destroked sbc 229ci twin turbo'd and made over 1,000hp he showed all of indy up so bad they had to make new rules & bar him from racing...the mans a legend
Started to respect the Vortec heads when a Impala with a semi built 350/Vortec heads ran consist 11:90s one night,took the baby seat out the back,bolted on a set of M&H and full exhaust and surprised me,it was really quiet and handed my guys Camaro a whooping all night.
I almost made popcorn to watch this. Awesome info. I have a feeling that by the end of this series my Camaro is going to be wearing vortec heads despite my urge to keep it stock.
Im pulling a kernal out my tooth rn
Im not really surprised with the results from the ported fuellies vs the stock vortecs , the double humps are around 50yo tech . I carnt wait to see the numbers on the ported vortecs though . Awesome vid , thanks for all your hard work . Cheers Adam from Australia . 👍👍
Very cool. Very helpful. I like that there is a clean data set and that it's clearly presented.
We knew that I want to know how they compare to cheap aluminum heads and how to Imcrese the vortecs the most
Something off on them numbers, stock Vortec heads fall off past about .500 lift, those don't. Also, whoever ported them humps did a terrible job. I guarantee you pull a head off a typical NHRA Superstock 327 and it'll flow 280+cfm with a 165cc intake runner that's raised half an inch. Typical NHRA legal 300hp 327 makes around 600hp with a old Carter AFB carb. Look it up. I have a old pair of 1969 041 heads that were ported by Tri State Cylinder heads back 30+yrs ago, they flowed 265+cfm intake and 190cfm exhaust. 2.02/1.60s. Match a 1205 Fel Pro. To get a vortec head to flow past .500 lift, you gotta weld alittle metal in the chamber on the quinch side. See David Vizards video on vortec heads. Joe Sherman was getting 300+cfm out of 292 castings and making 650hp on a 406 back in the late 80s. Whoever ported them double humps did a shitty job on the intake side, and a killer job on the exhaust. That Vortec head flows way better than about any stock Vortec head I've ever seen.
Those vortecs flow well for stock but I will be explaining why vortecs flow differently in a up coming video
These head were flowed on a fully calibrated superflow bench
4 inch bore @ 28"
Those are just a standard ported set of camel humps, I'm not saying that's the most you can get out of them but thats the difference between a $1000k port job and a $2500+ port job with welded floors ect..
The top under-cover porting service says they will get you 220 to 230 cfm on the intake
Its just a fair comparison for the normal guys running street strip cars. Not race cars where you and me both know that the runners are raised and the floors are welded to change the complete flow characteristics of the heads
Cheers!
@@jeffallen3382 it's on utube
@@cuttersperformance back in the day, 100s of aftermarket heads didn't exist, so we made the best of what was available. And everything was a lot cheaper than today. Many 550+hp smallblocks were built back in the day using late 60s casting cylinder heads. We ran a Superstock 295hp 350 back in the mid 80s, it made over 560hp with the Q-jet that came stock on the engine, Victor 4+4 intake and a 2 inch Moroso adaptor. Had a .630 lift solid roller in it, 280@.050. Heavily ported 041 castings. Ran mid 10s at 3200lbs.
@@jeffallen3382 there's a video of a Superstock 327 making 599hp with 461 casting heads and a Carter AFB on it also on utube. Rare to see what Superstock engines really make, because people are highly competitive in that world. Lots of secrets. But the results are obvious.
@@thereluctantgearhead4544 Theres no doubt they learned over the years how to make more power in the production vehicles but using the ideas a trial and error from the boys racing!
Pretty cool stuff if you ask me
Good info cutter. I love seeing results on a flowbench. Seeing some exhaust porting on a stock vortec would be interesting to see how the percent of flow can be increased. Keep it up, great work
Some good porting info and flow bench results coming up!
man... an old school guy just built and spent big money on some camel humps. i asked him if he had thought about going with vortecs and he said no way its junk. blew my mind a stock 1.94 valve blew the fully ported 2.02 valve out like that
ps. i brought home some vortec 062's the day afterwatching this lol
@@zachnickles7655 vortec heads are known to crack especially when you get the engine overheated. Camel hump heads are tough.
lots of good information. thank you. the most interesting part is the huge dip in the ported exhaust camel hump head. it would be interesting to know how to fix the slight dip in exhaust on the vortec head. of course i'm looking at it from a street head perspective not a maximum flow perspective.
That right there is a perfect example of the loss of velocity in the port
I will be showing more examples of this in upcoming videos on how to maximize vortecs for street/strip usage
@@cuttersperformance yeah it is. i look forward to hearing more about it. many people wouldn't or aren't that concerned about it, just the max but for street driving that is right in the meat of the usable power.
Maybe..when connected to some long tube 1 5/8 headers pipes, the header's ability to add "scavenging" in a certain rpm range could well "correct" that "dip".. ?
Additionally, if your cam is O.6OO" lift, the most average time is between peak and off the seat in the middle of that.
Subscribed, can't wait for the future installments, as I'm going to be pulling my heads to replace the thick head gaskets I used when I replaced the cracked heads and a cam swap on my l31 in my truck. I was planning to go the home flow bench route and use my old heads as guniee pigs.
Impressive flow numbers for those stock vortecs. The katech performance website has the stock 5.3L LS heads flowing 236CFM at .700".
I will be talking about that in a video coming up! There is a difference between the different Vortec cast heads
All these test were done on a calibrated superflow bench
4inch bore at 28"
Very well done video! Look forward to more.
I’d love to know how the muscle car wars would’ve played out if GM had Vortec heads available back in about 1963 . With heat riser passages of course.
Thats a cool thought! Would have been a game changer
@@cuttersperformance with mechanical fuel injection. Maybe the smog motors would never have happened. As long as MPG were decent of course.
Hard numbers. GM proved it. Car magazines proved it. You showed the flow numbers. Vortecs are the best flowing head GM made for the SBC. Not talking about L(?) engines. Disadvantage of vortecs is the intake. Bolt pattern change. Good luck trying to find some camel humps anyhow. They made millions of vortec heads.
Great video can't wait for more
Great video Pat, still pretty nervous to port mine myself LOL
I will be breaking it down in a upcoming video so you don't have to be scared haha
Great job keep up the good work on the channel best i ever got out of a set of 462 was 241 with a manley 2.02 swirle polish valve but i had alot of time in those heads
haha then you know the work it really takes to truly get that much flow out of camel humps!
Thanks man!
That's about what I expected. If you talk to old school circle track guys they say 461 462 041 186 291 492 heads (camel or double hump heads) peak at 250cfm. And you gotta be on your A game when porting. Easy to break into coolant passeges
This is really old news. Unless you run in a class requiring cast iron stock Gm heads, an aluminum head is cheaper than paying for cast iron heads to be ported and in many cases the al heads provide more flow. There are several companies out there producing decent flowing cast iron heads besides Dart and several others. Not knocking the dart heads because they have a great product. Might look at EQ heads. Just an old mans thoughts. Every one has an opinion. Some are better than others. Great to hear yours.
For sure cheaper than paying someone to port but some guys just don't have the cash for Aluminum heads
I'm just showing some options for the guys that don't mind doing the work themselves and they can end up with a great head for half the price
Cheers!
Agree 1000% on aluminum heads. Have run both a set of Edelbrock Etec170s and a set of 200cc Amazon castings I built. Even on a 5.7L L31 with a small cam they ate the then cracked vortecs alive that were on the engine. I have had two sets crack. Never will spend a dime into them again unless it is springs and retainers on a good running engine. The Etecs knocked a full second off the 0-60 of my 6,200 lbs Express conversion van with the same Comp 215/224 @ .050, 110 LSA, 106 ICL, 0.503 lift roller cam with 1.6 rockers for 0.534 lift. Ran a larger cam with the 200cc heads and it was even quicker.
I have dart 2 angle plug cast iron very good heads. They recommend you don't port and polish them. They say it's bad for flow. Cheers
Vortecs are good but are limited to porting. 185 Promaxx alum flow 250 at 500 out of box. 25 lbs lighter per head. Bump the compression up one point for heat dissipation.
Alot of us work on a budget. You can get a New set of Vortec Heads with stainless valves and screw in studs, complete bolt on ready delivered to your door for $670. I'm sure the Alum. heads are a better designed and better flowing head etc. but a budget is a budget.
@@markthegunplumber8376 don't forget $200-$300 for a vortec intake manifold
@@chriswells1440 Any TBI, TPI, or 2bbl core needs a manifold too so add $100 for all those.
I’ve got my vortec’s sitting on work bench still deciding if I should try and port or not... waiting to see your results first ! Lol
Video in the works! I would for sure wait, most guys over port the vortecs. Totally changes the characteristics of the head flow. Let me screw up some heads so you guys don't have to haha
I just subscribed just because of this video... Great info!
Thank you! You should enjoy the upcoming flow videos aswell
Cheers!
Great video, keep up the good work you do.
Thanks man! I really appreciate that
Have you flow test the speedway aluminum double hump heads?
Haven't used or flowed a set yet. Maybe I need to check them out?
Thanks
THANK YOU!.. GREAT VID!!
Love to see you compare different 305 cylinder heads...
I been working on trying to get a few sets for upcoming videos
@@cuttersperformance would be great to see the L30 305 heads, the roundy round dirt track guys around here say its the better then the 416 heads
@@Hobo-Henry tiny valves dont flow, negating compression increases, according to the guys that race in my area.
@@jamesgeorge6551 Hi James do the guys run the 416 heads in your area ? some of the classes here have to run the 434, 450 castings
@@Hobo-Henry The guys that ran 305 heads liked the 416 heads the best because they had 1.84 intakes, but most of the guys were "creative" abouts other mods, because a lot of them were running in a claimer rule class. If you ran a Mopar, or Ford, you could be really creative, because *everyone* else was running Chevy stuff. I'm not sure if the 96-99 CFSI Vortec head is legal in your class, I have heard its the best 305 Head, not sure about the casting numbers though, its been a decade or so.
Fyi interesting fact: lt1 & l31 have identicle port design only difference is no water crossover to intake on lt1
Yes exactly! Very similar head design
Don't knock camals.... I'm old enough to remember whe the 492 turbo was king lol
I have 2 sets of those angle plug 492’s,one set was ported and polished and run pretty good.But I’m sold on the vortec’s now.
One thing to know.Vortex heads can only handle A max spring pressure of no more the A 550 max lift came.Camels can hold a lot more if needed.
Angle plug heads
I have dart 2 angle plug cast iron very good heads. They recommend you don't port and polish them. They say it's bad for flow. Cheers
In the 60's we just called them fuel injection heads, because that's what they are
Haha yeah "fuelies"
Great video
Thanks brother!
@@cuttersperformance you're welcome
Stock LS3 heads flow 315 cfm out of the box. Ported flow close to 360.
Yeah man! Ls heads are amazing, no doubt about that
I think Dart makes a small block bottom end block with a raised cam that accepts a LS head and EFI system.
@@tommcfadden2226 yeah dart or world products can't remember. Pretty crazy haha
Great video.
Thanks brother!
I hate being asked what heads I have on my carbed LT1(which are basically the same as vortecs) because they always go on about their legendary camel hump headed race car with a 750 double pumper that they dont own anymore… quite annoying .
Haha I know exactly what your saying " the 500hp 327 with camel humps"
I’m that guy! lol I used to go on and on about my 327 rs camaro with power glide, peg legger until I bought a brand new ford ranger 4 banger that roasts the tires at 45 mph 14 seconds truck. Technology has come along way
Better flow and port velocity by far than 461's
Wow I'm surprised 191 with 202valves.I ported a 305 chevy.60cc 194.valve and got 228 at half inch an 234cfm at .600 lift
Yep, seen that myself.
I love the baby darts...
I'm going to start looking for me some of those vortec heads.
Haha some more info coming soon! Will help you decide on what ones to go with and what to do with them
Happy hunting Randy, I got lucky at a all you can carry sale, got 3 sets of 062’s for $60 bucks +tax, took seatbelts and cut them up and strapped the heads together LOL, was heavy as #^@& but I made it
@@Hobo-Henry thats what I'm fricken talking about! Nicely done!
@@Hobo-Henry cool idea. I'll try that too.
For a few dollars more I’d look into some aftermarket Vortecs, thicker decks, screw-in studs and guide plates, way more guide clearance, bigger valves, both intake bolt patters, both valve cover bolt patterns, well worth the investment in my opinion if Vortecs are what you want.
I've always wandered if an 11 to 1 piston (l2304) piston will hit the spark plug boss on those heads
Icon 803 piston fit with a little massaging. Essentially a 302 Z28 piston. Worked out to 11.4
Yeah I have never used vortec heads I know they flow fair but they crack pretty easily.
@@davidreed6070 your lucky if you can find a pair that's not cracked
How does the old big valve (big ports) 292 turbo heads compare?
Have you flow tested any Pontiac iron heads? If so what numbers
Camel by camel 🐫
And there made from.sand😅😅😅
The first 1:33 hooked me 💯
Can you put vortec heads on a 400sbc? Can they be drilled
Yes you can, i have a 400 short block that I will be adding vortecs to coming up
I just picked up a 89 gta trans am , with a 355 with aluminum lt1 heads from a 93 f body , do the heads flow the same as the iron vortec heads? I’m wondering if it’s worth swapping the heads out for a cheap set of dart iron Eagles or cheap jegs or summit racing aluminum heads
So the later 95+ iron lt1 heads flow just like a vortec as gm basically copied them. But im assuming you have a complete LT1 engine in the car? So if thats the case you need head that are for a LT1. Although you can bolt a set of regular sbc onto a lt1 block they wont actually work as the coolant ports dont line up properly
Cheers!
@@cuttersperformance no it’s a sbc , a machine shop welded the ports in the bottom of the heads to make em work ,
@@richardkamowski4656 o damn! Thats badass haha. But that being said the early lt1s didnt flow the greatest
Im actually trying to get a few different sets to make a video
I have some over the counter 492's the same head from 70 Vette/z28's sitting in my garage supposedly the best of the SBC muscle car heads. Curious how they compare on flow to stock Vortecs.
by "clened up" do you mean blending/smoothing or cleaning?
Like you channel!
The stock 906s were just cleaned up (the dirst cleaned up) the 2.02s were cut for bigger valves and the seat were blened into the throat
Troat work helps
Since you’re using the vortex why not use bow tie heads against them with old vs new tech and know that most people will be aiming toward 500 hp which leaves the vortex in limited knowing that most will go with bigger valves.I saw the umbers on your site which left me confuse since I have a GM parts book and fuel is heads that are in as good of shape as my bow tie but the bow ties win there also and with some work you can get a lot from bow ties.I just looked at another article with more heads in the test including some of the 1st alum.Bette heads and bowties came out on top.mine have 205’s in them which I held the at for durability.now I got mine long before vortex’s we’re even thought about and I’ve see alum.vs iron and done fairly,unless you have money to blow for the street are not needed provided you have any idea what you’re doing.if you’re going to buy something now a for limited power cheap then by all means but I got mine just before alum. hit the streets and like LS motors,if you already have gen 1 it’s not worth all the extra money to change bc in my book,hp is hp plain and simple and having limited money,learn first then spend
Watch David Vizards vids on here about porting vortecs.
Any chance you might be able to do 58cc 305 HO vs power pack heads?
Yeah man if i can get my hands on a set for a decent price haha
@@cuttersperformance If you need a set of powerpack heads let me know. I have some laying around.
I dig this channel! I just found you on IG
Thanks brother!
Have you ever seen a 461 head flow 260cfm at .450 lift. with a 167cc runner.
I'm sure there are guys that can get them there but woukd take some serious work
I have seen any personally on the flow bench flow that
@@cuttersperformance In the 2007 engine masters a guy had a 331 with 461X heads that made 470Hp @ 6500 rpm. I did the heads
Haha well then you how much work and skill that takes
Thats awesome man
@@cuttersperformance Well I bought a SF100 in 1970 and my SF600 was serial # 11, but more important is wet flow, and few people understand that at all. I built a wet flow bench 25 years ago. That 331 made best power with 28deg of total timing.
@@racerd9669 I had some 461X heads on my circle track 355. They were 1962 1.94i 1.50e and with a 500lift 245° at .050" solid flat tappet and they kept up just fine with the vortec guys. Kicked there asses on many occasions.
Do you sell heads? With the "clean up"? lol
Sorry I dont, its not worth it unless guys do it themselves. The heads becomes too expensive
Only problem I have with vortec heads is you have to have the intake and pistons to match
Any dish or flat tappet will work for vortecs but yes a intake will need to change
And there in lies the problem with the vortec heads! Very limited in intake choices compared to the standard small block heads. And also limited in lift without expensive machine work. And for us "old school" guys there is zero chance I'm running center bolt valve covers on a vintage car! So considering the intake issue and the valve guide boss limiting lift and requiring machine work as well as still only being a 194/150 with pressed in studs....in this day and age you can buy an aluminum head that blows the vortec out of the water for about what you'd have in the vortecs
You didn't put numbers for the ported vortex
Love this content! 👍smash that thumbs up 👍
Thanks brother!
Would you expect to see a big difference between 904 and 062 vortec especially on exhaust side?
I meant 906
When were camel heads at the peak of their popularity?
Depends who you ask 😄
Not all camel humps are 202s.
Also castings from mexico have higher nickel content (less prone to cracking)
I've heard that before but can't find any proof of it. Do you have a source on that? I'd really like to know for sure
I think it's all a myth
mine was in a 55 chev-belaire
Great video I’m chomping at the bit waiting for more, Thanks for going through all this work it’s truly appreciated. For guys looking for vortec information www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Vortec_L31_cylinder_head
You guys are going to love the videos coming up!
Not trying to hijack your comment section but I’ve been inspired by your work so I posted a 60 second head video just to share what Im workin on
Can I send you heads for port work everyone I talk to are pretty much clue less on what to do with vortec heads please let me know
Im not taking on any outside port work right now. Vortecs honestly dont take alot of port work to get good flow, and paying someone to port them get you up to aftermarket head territory price wise. This isnt the case if you need to use them for class requirement racing.
Abit of bowl blending, careful valve unshrouding, and 1.6 exhaust valves gets you a great flowing head
If you have any questions feel free to email me at pcperformance1@outlook.com
@@cuttersperformance I'm going to watch you video's about 10 times while I do the port work lol thanks dude🤙
Old news we knew this 20 years ago
Yeah alot of people know it but some people still don't believe it
Just trying to give guys the information, there's alot of flow numbers being thrown around online so I wanted to try to clear some of that up
Cheers!
You’d be amazed how many boomers still go on about double humps every chance they get
Sorry I have a set of 194, with a 160 and my 461 did better then vortec know my stock even beat the vortec, know are all heads equal no, and you have to know how to flow them. Know there are 6 different camel humps, 461,462 earller,and then 186 and 187 later camel humps ,and both had a x casting , I have the x castings know we cc my heads and the combustion chamber was 59 cc, the valve from the factory was unshrouded, gasket matched,and flowed very well and way better then my 462 witch had a 69cc chamber and was not a x head. So please let's not say all heads are equal, I had a set of vortec, my motor made 375hp, camel hump 462 made 362hp, 461x 410hp.and that was dyno#. Flow bench they where very close the number crossing each other. So the other thing was there are other heads out there they say are better,I have a set and of the other 2 numbers. So if we are really haveing a shoot out should we not have all the heads, cc port them and see the numbers, also be diligent on the casting them self.
Camel humps are 2.02 1.6 stock.
They actually came in 1.94/1.5 and 2.02/1.6
@@cuttersperformance I know but I don’t consider true camel humps unless they are the larger ones that’s pretty much the whole reason they were the ones to have. Got a set of 3991492 in the garage all ready to go 👍🏻
No doubt vortec heads flow better than camel hump heads but all camel heads aren't the same. The "fuel injection" camel hump heads that came out in 1964 have 2.02'" intake valves, 1.64" exhaust valves, the combustion chamber was relieved around the intake valve and they had bigger ports. I bought one set new in 1964 and my L79 327 came with them.
The old 461X was the big boy. 170cc runners.
Extremely rare these days. I had a pair back 30-40yrs ago. Thought I was shittin in tall cotton. The old 327 ran pretty damn good with them heads tho. I had a 69 C-10 stepside hotrod pickup that I swapped a bunch of engines into, a couple were rowdy 327s. I used a 590/600 lift, 268/272@.050 106 lobe sep solid Lunati cam, 12-1 compression, Strip Dominator intake and 830 Holley. The old 461X heads had alittle port work and .030 taken off the decks, that old truck ran 7.00s in the 8th with that engine. 4-56 geared 69 Camaro 12-bolt, T-400 with a 4800 stall. Drove it to high school.
@@thereluctantgearhead4544 That sounds great! Pretty much the motor I want to build now, but I want to put a mechanical roller, and maybe go for Dart Iron Eagles or Trickflow heads.
@@DeliriumElectric yep, a lot easier to make big power with modern heads.
Did you ever get that 327 dyno'd?
Just get an ls
Ive been waiting for someone to comment that haha
Some of us can't give up fully on our gen 1s haha 😆
@@cuttersperformance i looked for the comment i was surprised not to see it so i figured someone had to lol
Great videos man👍👍
@@Stevesbe haha true, I'm also a big ls fan and will have some LS videos in the future thats for sure 👍
Get a bigblock if ya really want to step it up.
Quite saying the same thing over and over just show results
Sorry about that, will try to speed that up in future videos
Quit misspelling simple words and take an elementary school English class.