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Why We NEED a Feathering Prop (MJ Sailing - Ep 300)
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- čas přidán 15. 08. 2024
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Matt and I have a lot of fun things to cover in this week's episode.
Firstly, we focus on our primers, both high build and final primer. Since we had painted our owner's hull with Awl Grip's Final Primer last week, and then left it for 8 days to go home and see family before coming back to sand it, we weren't sure how easy of a task that would be. But, even jumping up to 320 grit sandpaper, Matt had no problem using our new DA sander to bring this down to a smooth finish, and barely any of our high build is showing through. Just a bit of touch up hand sanding from me and it will be ready for it's last coat of primer!
Then in the guest side, we FINALLY get to putting the first coat of high build primer in the head. A space that has been ready for weeks and weeks, but we needed to replace the protective plastic of the gelcoated mold before we could move on to this task. Once it was done though, it felt SO NICE to have a good 80% of the guest hull covered in primer.
Lastly, although we're not at the point we're ready to install it yet, Matt goes over our choice of propeller, especially since we've spent a lot of time recently talking about the prop shaft. Originally we had planned on going with a folding prop, but since we're now a hybrid boat, our priorities have changed. With a folding prop we would have been able to beach our boat, but now the focus is on regeneration, especially while sailing at 12-15 knots.
Lots of propeller's would have an issue with this at such high speeds, but thanks to the enormous hub on the AB Marine feathering propeller we've received, we feel confident in its abilities.
Make sure to watch the video for all the details.
We hope you enjoy!
Link to AB Marine's SPW Variprop:
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Insane time commitment!
Longer than we initially thought it would be, but the end payoff will be worth all the time spent!
Thanks for the prop talk, good stuff
Firstly, Congratulations on episode 300, a very significant milestone! Every single one of them entertaining and educational! If you could give advice to the Episode 1 Matt & Jessica, what would it be and do you think that they would listen? ... The longer this build goes on and the more reasons you give for your choices in equipment, the more I'm looking forward to your shakedown sail to see those choices in action, I'm learning a ton from you guys and I'll be testing your theories when you are sailing !! Stay Safe & Fair Winds!!
Got nothing but respect for you both. Prepping and painting the inside of my steel boat drove me to the edge of despair. I can't even imagine going through all the steps you have. It will all be a distant memory when you're at sea though.
The funny thing is, if I have a good audio book to list to, I happily drown myself in that while my body is doing the autopilot motions of fairing, haha.
Super happy the primer finish is so much better. Keep at it, you both are doing a great job.
Thank you!! It feels like such a big difference in that hull! Fingers crossed that we only need one more coat of primer before paint.
I am glad you see you using sanding mesh. After I tried my first sheet, I have not bought another sheet of paper. I have even found it in grits down to 40 which is really great for rough cutting. The bonus is how much better it works at dust extraction.
Hopefully there won't be much more 40 grit sanding in our future (that's usually to prep our foam for glassing or its first coat of fairing) and now the only spaces left to to that are our aft cabins! 😍
Fantastic work,looks like a great prop choice.
Thanks 👍
Cheers.
Congratulations on episode 300, the new kitty is starting to take shape.
Once we can get the paint on, the real fun can begin! 😍
Yay paint soon 🎉
Not just a feathering propeller but for best regeneration a variable pitch feathering propeller.
I agree that a variable pitch would be incredible. Unfortunately all the systems currently available are large, heavy and expensive.
Great job you two, now you’re getting the primer coats it’s making such a difference to the look of the Cat.
Your Props are a serious piece of kit aren’t they you’ve definitely done your research on them.
All the best from Southwest England 🏴
Thank you Jamie!! Yes, Matt is always doing weeks of research before he decides on anything. And it's such a mood booster to see the hulls progress with the different primers. I think when the first coat of paint goes on I might actually cry, lol.
Those nearly-finished surfaces look fantastic! All that work is paying off, and now you'll be able to remember it fondly...
You were in west Michigan!!! I’m in Byron Center.
Sitting in Grand Haven on my boat watching your video.
We were staying in Byron Center during that bad weather!! The tornado on the 24th!
And the next night we went to Grand Haven to have dinner at the Kirby Grill. 😍
We had a small viewing “window” above the prop and provided it was kept clear any issue such as line entanglement could be assessed before having to dive on it
Hey, look at that! All of that prep is really paying off. Fantastic job on the finish primer. Yay you guys! Also really interesting information on the props. I can imagine anything you do to mitigate the jarring will also greatly reduce stress on the prop shaft, the transmission bearings, etc. You are building one hell of a boat! 🙂
The freshiy primed surfaces look excellent, it sure takes a huge amount of work to fair an prepare. Matt is so good at explaining the prop technology, so important to understand the issues and develop contact with experts in the industry.
Liked the explanation of the feathering prop, it's like a bolt with a variable thread pitch, never gonna happen but it helps me understand how the prop functions in forward and reverse
You two are the internet's greatest example of delayed gratification. Keep going, keep going - the end probably feels like a million miles away, but just imagine how good this boat will be when its finished...and how much fun you'll have when you break free of the boat yard!
The dream of sitting at anchor in our beautiful boat is our carrot and will get us across that finish line.
Respect to the both of you, so much patience I mean a lot of it, I remember at the beginning when you were planning buying a cat or building it. your were talking about the amount of money you would save by doing it this way. Today after all this time and labor you put in it, how much did you save and is it worth it. I followed you all along and I couldn`t have done it. Super gratz to you for the effort and much RESPECT . All I can wish you is sailing again happy winds. My question still remain how much did you save…..maybe you could eventually make another video about your special budget. Thank you for all the info you gave us.
A little trip hop in the playlist! Thank you!!!
Very much likes the amsterdam t-shirt as Dutch person. Very well explanation of the prop, well done!
That was a shirt I designed for our group when we attended METS last year. ❤️❤️ We had such a great time in the Netherlands and will be back in November. Any suggestions of things to do close to Amsterdam?
You should consider putting a windmill up on top of the mast. That will allow you to generate power from the wind even if you aren't moving. Putting up high helps with keeping it in clean air unaffected by your sail.
Looks like a nice finish on that primer , looks really good , well done 😊 👍
Thank you so much!!
honestly, you can see why so many boats get headliner panels put in everywhere. the finishing is crazy on the interior.,
If it wasn't for us trying to keep the boat as light as possible for light wind sailing, we'd be right there too!!
@@MJSailing I could see that, I was trying to figure out how to build a Steel hulled, composite superstructure trimaran a few years ago , this way the reefs weren't a concern " there is a lot of safety in a steel hull in the ocean" and the boat would be durable, but the weight was crazy high. Although with a all carbon fiber interior and 10 gauge keel bottoms using some creative unibody car construction methods for hull sides, I was able to get within 50% of the weight of a comparable fiberglass boat in cad, so, maybe it's possible with someone smarter than myself. I have toyed around with using a thin double hull sandwich aluminum sheet composite design, basically a thin 0.040 sheet with a thick sandwich of foam between the sheets to get the weight out but keep the resistance to puncture high. But yeah, light boats, light wind I feel ya.
A nice carbon/kevlar bottom would do the job well, but the abrasion resistance of metal is pretty hard to beat.
@@MJSailing puncture and impact steel is king
Boat is really taking shape now . Very excited for you two. Ship shape
Thank you so much!! Just wait for next week's video where we move on to a NEW stage of finish work. Really changes the look of things again!
Props to continue the interior priming process.
Thank you so much!! Not much longer now until we're getting paint on the walls.
We looked at variprop and ended up going with Gori folding props, as they seemed to be much much simpler operation and maintenance. But with your need of the adjustable pitch, I think you guys made a really good choice. Seems to be real well built. Keep up the good work!
The Gori is a gorgeous design and will absolutely serve you well.
Your two obviously took this project on to save on the expense of buying the same boat new.
You have worked so hard and so long!
Have you done any kind of time/cost benefit analysis?
Love your videos.
The project actually wasn't to save money. We took it on because we wanted the pleasure of building something ourselves (this is why we prefer to do everything just the two of us) and the reward that comes with seeing the end product as truly ours.
It just occurred to me that we haven't seen an income/expenditure assessment in a long time. You probably have a reason, so I'll butt out if it was intentional. It just crossed my mind what keeps you financially afloat over this long build.
Great progress and must be a great feeling when you begin to cover the fairing "blemishes" and get to see what the final state will look like. I also know it's such torture to you knowing where all the "goofs" are that the casual observer will never see.
Great explanation of the prop considerations.
The fairing is such a tortuous process! Glad you are nearly done in one area, but depressing to hear that area is only 15% of the boat. Enjoyed the discussion of the folding prop. I never knew there was so much involved, but given the way the prop has to twist and turn and operate under high surface loads, I can see why they need to be built robustly.
I've used the 3M products and realistically the diablo screen sanding pads are SOOO much better, last 10 times longer. I hated seeing all the purple parts flaking off the sander in 5 minutes. I have a Variprop on our boat. And they are amazing, super tough and efficient. Love how it reverses, very little prop-walk.
In doing the fairing and sanding, have you considered using a tooling dye? It is very helpful in eliminating orange peel.
We use dykem often, but once the primer goes on, you can see the low spots since they remain darker than the spots sanded.
Folding props work just fine for regen. The real question is what the efficiency differences are. Gori's work pretty well, because you can spin them up in reverse (higher pitch).
Max Cruise tried both Flexifold and Gori and couldn't get them to hold open for regen. We think it was the deceleration that caused the blades to fold back in. Unfortunately these boats don't carry a lot of momentum, so slow rapidly in between gusts and regen stops. It takes spinning the motor in reverse to get them to open again, and this causes a big shock load to the drivetrain.
Flexofolds are excellent at regeneration on Oceanvolt motors because the controller has the smarts to spin the prop just enough for it to stay open under any boat speed, regardless of deceleration. They have slightly less output than the Servoprops, which are Oceanvolts proprietary variable pitch technology.
We do know a few people with them and none were happy with the regen. I think Jemmy Cornell had issues with it too on his test once in the ocean waves.
Вы герои.
Isn’t it amazing how spending money on the proper tool can save you countless hours of work and frustration. If you value your time it always pays to go for the expensive tool.
I think the orange peel is being worried about too much. It is part of painting and is usually polished away at the end of the process. I suggest you get a good paint buffer. The polishing compound have many different finishes.
No mention of the weight of the prop. I would have thought that would have played a role in choosing which prop to go with.
Moving from 180 to 380 is to big a grit step. You should not jump more than forty grit at a time. Go 180-220-260-300-340-380-. Anything over 240 grit and you are really polishing not sanding. Your choice of extract is excellent, it is without a doubt the best paper on the market presently. The new 3M sander is awesome too. You can’t go wrong with a Festool or Mirka sander either.
I will pass the prop info on to all channels I watch Sailing SV Lynx and The wynns when there next video comes out.
The wynns are using a Hydra-align prop. It's what HH uses on their boats for the hybrid system. A nice prop, but we went for robustness as our first concern
doing a gREAT job! how can y'all be so patient??? What's the long range splash date ?
We don't really have any other options other than to be patient. 🤣. We're hoping for a Fall 2024 splash at the moment.
Propellers are some of the most complex structures in the marine industry. BTW, since you have a hybrid engine, the torque should be available from zero speed, unlike a diesel engine which sees a massive rise in torque as you increase engine speed. This means that your propeller is more effective at lower speeds. All good
It's difficult since we need to pitch the props for the diesel (which is on port only). Then those same props have to do double duty when we are using the electric motor in both hulls. Hard to predict how it's all going to work well together.
There is a company called “linear blocking tools” great for blocking on curved surfaces
Ohhhh, I'll check that out tonight!!
Seems like the prop regen method is still kinda new and being dialed in, with wind/sails there is roller furling/reefing, preventers(sp?), jib poles and other lines to control and adjust the energy harvesting for forward motion. Perhaps they need analogous methods for water/electric harvesting, pitch control wouild appear to be only part of the methods needed. Also with more mass at the end of the prop shaft, and potentially more instantaneous load, are you going to strengthen the structure holding the shaft?
Matt make sure your key in the prop has the exact measurement length needed .. crucial to vibration issues
Luckily they know our shaft supplier, Vetus, well and had the information on hand for the key. We confirmed everything too, but it's a perfect match
👍
Are you aware that you engine will rotate backwards during regeneration when your pro is pitched in reverse? That is uncommon. All regeneration systems on yachts that I know work with the prop in forward and the throttle slightly in forward. The electric motors are spinnest from the force of the water and working as a generator. Your system supplier has probably advised you. And by the way I have seen a study from one manufacturer that actually showed that folding propeller work quite well for regeneration. The same way they work when going reverse. The water force on the blade is trying to close the propeller but the rotation centrifugal acceleration is keeping it open.
Max Cruise has tried all the folding props and can't get them to stay open. It seems to be an issue with acceleration and deceleration causing the blades to go into the folded position no matter what is done. They've had many talks with the engineers of the prop manufacturers and haven't found a solution besides going feathering. Hench why we went with the Variprop instead of Varifold.
You guys are doing a great job but I am concerned that you may need more support side to side on your prop skegs to take the repeated torque loading and unloading
Hey Matt, so the Variprop is an alternate to a Servoprop? I was under the impression that Servoprop was a type, not a brand. Love the fact that you can make micro adjustments to the Veriprop! The build is looking great!
I wonder what the difference between best re-gen pitch and best reverse pitch will be. Best to avoid situations requiring rapid reversal until you know.
We have a lot of theories, but until we launch, we won't know for sure. I imagine we'll be taking advantage of the underwater adjustable pitch for the first few months dialing it all in. We should be docking under just electric on both sides, so the pitch would be different for those anyway.
🤠👍
Have you guys considered underwater cameras built into the hull to watch the props and forward facing to watch underwater obstacles.
just a thought
380 is pushing it. 400 is standard..320?
Maybe you guys can speed up the fairing in the guest cabins by 3x by using stainless drywall knives instead of the flexy plastic autobody applicators? I'd like to see you show the attempt. Make one a 12". It would create hope for many potential diy builders. Remember the angle of knife to wall controls the smoothness of the application of product. Your angle is too shallow.
Fascinating! But why does the prop have to feather into reverse in order to regenerate?
Reverse holds the blades from feathering while fwd won't.
Ah yes, ofc, thank you!
Adjustable props would probably fare better if you could pump marine grease into them while still in the water at anchor.
In theory that would be doable. We haven't tried it ourselves, since our older model Maxprop didn't have the capability.
You can just leave the zerk fitting in the hub, many people do it all the time, dive down with your grease gun and pump.
And to think that Joshua Slocum who built his sailboat “Spray” managed to sail solo around the world with no auxiliary engine whatsoever. I’ve heard it said that the biggest problem in sailboats is with their engines.
And how many sailors have lost their life due to not being able to get their boat out of harm's way?
I am curious how your prop locks into reverse pitch for regeneration. A feathering pitch prop wants to go to a fully feathered position when going through the water so what is it that causes it to pitch?
You put the motor in reverse and spin it up to set the blades in reverse pitch. The flow of water then keeps them in that position. To get them to feather, you have to spin in forward to get them to switch to the fwd pitch, and then to neutral where they will feather when the water flows over the blades.
Its great to watch this build, but are you guys ever going to cut our the hull windows? I keep waiting for it.
Not sure what to say, lol. We'll get there when we get there.
That prop with all the adjustment, I am assuming that settings are in application, and not when underway , ie if you want another setting , haul out ? Not being negative just asking a question , it sounded like you can just change angles when you want ?
We'll be able to dive on the prop at anchor (we have a hukka (sp)) and will be able to make our micro adjustments then.
@@MJSailing that's ok , sadly I have had lots of experiences with cat props , fixing them underwater is not a cool idea , less friction to tighten up, loftier isn't good under water ,
Why is it cats that lose there props more , I have never had a mono hull prop fall off , but if you can go dry out , that's different,,
Nothing needs to be removed to adjust the pitch. There are hex screws on the side that adjust fwd and reverse independently.... Just twist a little to adjust the pitch.
Do the windows come with the purchase of the boat? I would like to think so, considering they're obviously custom sizes.
The windows do not come with the kit, and that allows the owner to choose from acrylic or glass, and different tints.
We cut custom windows for our last boat, it wasn't too hard of a project.
www.mjsailing.com/installing-the-last-of-our-plexiglass-windows/
@@MJSailing wow! That's cool! I don't remember watching that video, so I will definitely check it out! Thank you!
On the chine could you cut a longer board at correct angle to put sand paper on?
Unfortunately the angle changes pretty dramatically as this is a curved hull section top and bottom. Everything looks flat on video, but it's actually concave curves.
Just how much longer til you hit the water??
We're hoping we can get her in next fall!
Does the other engine have the same prop or only the electric?
The props were chosen based off the diesel engine in the port hull. Both sides have the same props because we'll maneuver in marinas off the electric motor in each hull instead of the diesel in one and the motor in the other.
Why did you choose a three bladed prop as opposed to a four blade one?
I wanted four blades, but to build them, they have to reduce the area of the internal gear set and the engineers said they weren't sure if this would take the load well enough. The only issue we have with a parallel hybrid system is that you have to still prop the boat for the diesel engine and not for the electric. For us, that limits it to 16" three blade or 15" 4 blade. It's one negative of the higher RPM Yanmar over the lower Beta that Max Cruise is using.
@@MJSailing Thanks now I understand.
What I got out of all that prop explanation is according to someone believes size matters when it comes to gears. Oh well....
That's what happens when you move at such high speeds. 😜👍 - Jessica
Lithium batteries catching fire.???? Once they catch on fire, there isn't any way to stop them.
That's Lithium Ion. Lithium iron phosphate doesn't catch fire.... You can stick a nail right through the case and it won't go into thermal.
@MJSailing they don't allow them in your checked luggage on planes because of the hazard potential. I'm just saying that's a lot of work you have done. Hate to see you lose it. My personal experiance we used them on Cell Sites and had several fires. Burned the site to the ground.
Glad you are Not using "Sail Drives" Your Props Look Beefy as can Be.
Your lives are burning away. If you want to have babies do it soon. Eggs run out. Love the boat building, it's taking a awhile tho. Just sa6ing
PLEASE LET MY EGGS GO BAD ON ME!! That would be such a blessing. That way I won't have to worry about getting pregnant.
@@MJSailingEspecially in the States! I hear some 'bad eggs' are going fundamentalist on pregnancy over there.
One of the most beautiful women on CZcams..... And she builds boats!!!!😅
I agree - Matt