Bob Costas Reveals His ‘Greatest Living Baseball Player’ Candidates | The Rich Eisen Show
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2024
- Bob Costas and Rich Eisen discuss the passing of Baseball Hall of Famer Willie Mays and which former or current player can be called the greatest living baseball player.
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Could listen to Bob 24/7/365 talk baseball!!!
It just occurred to me that this coming Sunday (June 23) will be the 40th anniversary of the the legendary "Ryne Sandberg Game" that Bob Costas callled with Tony Kubek on the Saturday "Game of the Week" on NBC.
@@TMC1982Part2 Sounds likie some game!
At the time of his retirement, Rickey held the all-time records for Steals, Runs and Walks. He’s still 2nd in walks to Bonds. That fact puts him in the conversation even without his other accolades.
Ken Griffey Jr. gets my vote
Jr. is the best overall player living. Bonds to me is still the best hitter alive.
The injuries disqualify him
Look up every stat between the 2 in the 90's. Barry was better in everything
Been saying this about Griffey for years. He is the best 5 tool player ever besides Mays and then Henderson is close. People need to talk about Griffey more as an all-timer.
He’s definitely an all timer. No doubt.
Bonds is easily the greatest living player.
He was the best player in the game before steroids became a huge part of the game.
After McGwire, Sosa, Canseco and probably 50% of MLB turned it into the steroid era - Bonds was still the best player in the game.
Either way the game was played... he was the best at it.
Aaron and Mantle were fantastic five tool players. Probably second and third to Mays.
Both better than Griffey - and well ahead of Henderson.
They do. But he is one of those guys who had a great first 10yrs, then fell off the map the next ten years. Same with Pujols.
@@aBeatleFan4ever Still doesn't change the fact that he threw it away. Yes, he was a great five-tool player before the juice, but the home run numbers would have been dramatically low, as would the OBP due to all the intentional walks.
@@wvu05 - people who hold the steroid era against Bonds... just don't seem to understand that was the way they played the game at that time. Bonds was the best before steroids... and was the best when steroids became the way they played. He should be a first ballot HOF player in the regular HOF and also a first ballot HOF in the steroid HOF.
Easily the greatest living player.
The first 10 years of Pujols’ career is maybe the best 10 year clean hitting stretch in the history of the game
Ted Williams is in there to.
Yet, the issue with Pujois is Pujois was beginning to become an ordinary player, after his first ten years as a sensational ballplayer. Pujois, as an Angel, was a .260 hitter, hitting 225 home runs. In other words, an OK ballplayer. The above does not diminish what Pujois did do, wearing a Cardinal uniform. For as a Cardinal, Pujois was extraordinary, beyond extraordinary.
@@jkrasney1 yeah, that’s true. Ken Griffey also had a very lackluster end to his career, yet he’s still mentioned in the video because of how good he was at his peak. I’m from seattle - I love Griffey. What he did with the glove is far beyond Pujols’ defensive value. But Pujols at his best was simply a better hitter. But yeah, this is baseball player - not hitter
@@riltalk4055 & he lost some years of his prime to the war
There are plenty of questions about whether Albert was clean. Best (likely) clean hitter of my lifetime is either Frank Thomas 91-97 or Trout 2012-22. Trout putting up over 80 WAR in his first 10 years, despite the injuries and covid, is something we will never see again.
Honorable mention: ichiro
there's no way. Ichiro was a great player but he never hit for power. He's one of the greatest hitters of all-time, he was a great fielder with a tremendous arm. He was decent as a base stealer but not great but without the power he's not a true 5 tool player so I wouldn't say he's among the GOATS
Lol
Ichiro in place of Pete Rose. Real Hit King and better defensively.
@@thebourg he’s one of the greatest living baseball players no doubt about it. What does power have to do with it lol
I agree. Sure he does not have the power stats but he leaves everyone else in his dust in other areas. Think about what he accomplished adding both of his careers together, it is mind boggling.
Rickey Henderson, George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Pete Rose, Greg Maddux.
Henderson, ok. Maddux, sure. Brett and Rose hell no lmfao. Rose played a bajillion games and didn't crack 80 WAR. Trout already has that much right now even though he was only healthy til his late 20s. Brett also has a whopping 2.4 more bWAR than Trout....with 5000 extra plate appearances.
How are you going to leave off Clemens, Bonds, ARod at minimum while including Rose? Blasphemous, there are dozens of guys alive with more WAR and better stats than Rose, and if we are including cheaters and abusers then may as well include the guys I named over him lol.
Rose is a career .303 hitter over more than 14,000 PAs. He all-starred at 5 positions. Won three batting titles and three championships. It was about more than longevity.
maddux...common now
Costas is awesome
Ken Griffey, Jr, and I don't think it's particularly close. If he hadn't suffered all those injuries, he would have rewritten the record book. He had the purest swing ever.
Shotime Shohe is my favorite
Shohei.
I've been in the same Strat League for over 50 years. Never had Bonds or Griffey. Drafted Hendersn (in the SECOND round) when he was a rookie. Best Strat player I ever had. Greatest leadoff hitter ever.
Rose being an All Star at 4 different positions is crazy
Cincinnati Reds fans were notorious for stuffing the ASG ballot boxes.
Five: 1B, 2B, 3B, LF, RF.
And people say he wasn’t good defensively. Who else has ever done this?
@@dougfromsoanierana In fairness, people who are good defensively tend not to get moved around that much.
In terms of under-appreciated player talent, Robin Yount tops my list. He was 5 tool, All-Star SS and CF, . Bobby Witt Jr reminds me of him when I see him play. But, growing up in Washington, I'm bias towards Ken Griffey Jr - he had such a sweet swing and went all out tracking down fly balls.
Sandy Koufax
Take him, give me the Big Unit.
His peak was too short. My nod goes to Maddux, who was also the greatest pitcher with the glove of all time.
ridic
I'm very surprised that no commenters here have mentioned Johnny Bench, who is widely regarded as the best catcher ever. Or Mike Schmidt, who is widely regarded as the best third baseman ever.
By the numbers I don’t understand how you can’t include Trout in the discussion
I’d agree if he hasn’t missed so much time the last six, seven seasons? Whether you like it or not, injuries come into play. This wouldn’t even be a discussion if the Kid didn’t get hurt so much during his Reds days. So yeah, case in point. Being healthy and available is a big part of it.
Cal Ripken Jr. The perfext baseball name.
As much as the alleged steroid use was an aid for Bonds. Bonds like Mays never played in a hitter friendly ballpark. If Bonds and Mays played in the Kingdome they would have over 800 home runs. Griffey’s statistics began to significantly drop the half season he played at T-Mobile Park (a park designed for him) and in Cincinnati (another launching pad). Griffey did have injuries later in his career, but he had them early in his career also. When he came back to the Kingdome he was back to launching home runs in the climate controlled air pressured, short porched venue . When he came back from injuries in outdoor parks he was an above average player. His advantage in the Kingdome is far greater than any player who used steroids. Griffey was “superhuman” at the Kingdome.
Not alleged. He admitted doing them.
@@randomname3715 Barry Bonds admitted to taking what his trainer told him was flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis. His trainer sat in prison and never spoke during the trial. Ohtani said he has no clue he had $16 Million stolen from him. Now his translator is going to sit in prison. Even though both of them probably broke rules, they never admitted. Also if you want to get around a baseball trial, you need a fall guy, like a trainer or a translator.
Anybody else hit the warehouse in Baltimore? Any of those home run contests that he won contested in the Kingdome?
@@dwaynecoy1871 he did it against batting practice pitching. Bonds hit a batting practice pitch through a window across the street of Wrigley Field and no one else has done that and that ballpark has been there for over 100 years. I’ll make it clear. Bonds finished his career with more road home runs. Griffey finished his career with over 40 more home home runs. That’s a well above average season of home runs.
Bonds was hitting 800 if a team had signed him after the 2007 season. He was easily hitting more than 1000 home runs had he not been walked so much.
Pujols
Nolan Ryan I think would be up there somewhere too.
for pitchers yes but I think thats a separate discussion
A guy that had a win percentage barely over .500 is, imo, disqualified from the discussion.
Give me Randy Johnson (and 4-5 other pitchers) before Nolan. Ryan was durable and had a ton of no hitters and strikeouts, but he wasn't consistent enough on a game to game basis.
Come on man, it's 2024. Can we all just finally agree that a statistic that is based on your teams play isn't the one we use to judge pitchers?
Ryan once had an 8-16 record while leading the league in ERA, Strikeouts, K/9, H/9, ERA+,
Hypothetically, a pitcher could throw 9 hitless innings, striking out 26, walking no one, no HBPs and the only contact being a routine pop fly that the fielder bungles, kicks, picks up and throws away, allowing the batter to score, and his team doesn't score and they lose 1-0
To you, that pitcher can't be considered great, because he lost the game.
Not even close. He didn't even win an MVP or CY award and has the same WAR as Verlander with 27 seasons compared to 18. He is basically a folk-lore legend now that people do not understand the stats of. He was a wild pitcher with a bazillion walks to go with his crazy velocity and strikeouts. He had the most walks in 8 different seasons, 11 seasons leading in strikeouts. Only 2 seasons over 6.2 WAR. Verlander has 4 7.4 WAR seasons with an MVP, 3 CY youngs, and a ROY.
If we are ignoring all the controversies then it is likely some combo of these names as top 5: Bonds, ARod, Pujols, Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, Schmidt, Henderson. Active players with high WAR per 162 would include Trout(9.3), Mookie(8.2), Judge(7.5), and Kershaw(5.94) but Judge has a much smaller sample than the best of all time players. You could toss in a few others for sure like peak 97-2000 Pedro who averaged like a 10 WAR season in the height of the steroid era as a tiny 5'10" pitcher.
kinda crazy, and shows how sometimes we are just too close to it, that Mike Trout wasn't mentioned. He's had a Griffey like slowing of production due to injuries/world events that started younger than Griffey's did but his production was clearly better than any of the others mentioned before that started and he STILL compares really well to them al at the same age.
Because Trout is overrated even though he is an all-time great. The WAR era has made him better than he is.
Rose best contact hitter ever and from both sides of plate. Mantle best power hitter from bot sides of plate. Obvious first choices in a historical fantasy league if you somehow got both. BUT Willie the best. Back in early 50's when they're both centerfielders. Mantle pre knees, he could really run for a paleface. Even he said after his Triple Crown season, '56, "I'm not the best centerfielder in this town." Willie was best, no question. Did everything. When Durocher knew he was our as Giants mgr he told Willie, and Willie lamented, said ' but you won't be here to help me.' Durocher to Willie and Willie alone: "Willie Mays doesn't need ANYBODY'S help!" . ..and what came after...? History...BASEBALL HISTORY
Mantle’s OBP was 46 points higher than Rose’s. Who cares that Rose was slapping a few more singles when he was also making A LOT more outs.
I would take Griffey Jr any day over Steroids head Bonds…..Griffey Jr was just like Mays for our time in the 90s
I'm thinking the three biggest contenders are Griffey, Pujols, and Ichiro.
Rickey Henderson would agree that he is an all-timer.
And he wouldn't be wrong.
Junior, all day, everyday!
No one will ever have a sweeter swing, than that of The Kid. He's the only player that I have ever seen that made baseball look easy!
I love the musical artists analogies he used
100% Griffey
Dale Murphy
No Cal Ripken shout?
what about Ichiro
Rose isn’t even close to the greatest living player. He’s not even the great living member of the Big Red Machine.
Gimme the big unit, Pedro, or Mariano Rivera. Being a millennial sucks if you wanna buy a house but goddam if we didn’t get to see the golden era of pitching.
The kid was fun to watch…….sweet swing…smooth as silk…..
Absolutely Rickey Henderson!
When I hear "greatest" I take it to mean who would you take in a winner take all game with everything on the line. For a hitter, for me that's Barry Bonds. Steroids or no, there's no other player you'd want up with a runner on first in the 9th and down by one. For a pitcher, I think I'll go Randy Johnson. Five Cy Young's, four other Top-5 finishes, Four ERA titles, a WS MVP, 300+ wins and 4800+ strikeouts.... His resume is so ridiculous and it's incredible to think he really didn't get good until age 29. RJs age 34 through 38 seasons are arguably more impressive than Koufax's peak from age 26-30. Better ERA+ and K%, more CYs and Ks for Johnson in fewer innings. bWAR of 42.1 bWAR for RJ vs 39 for Koufax.
Compare RJ's numbers to Clemens numbers.
@@gregrizzo8054 It's a lot closer than you think. Clemens has 100+ more career starts and 800 more innings so his WAR is better, but RJ has more Ks and a better 10-year peak. I'd still go with peak Johnson in a must win game/season over peak Clemens. Clemens was too prone to clunker seasons in his 30s.
Actually George Brett or Reggie Jackson were a Lot more clutch.
Albert Pujols
Ryan holds 51 total MLB records, including
5,714 career strikeouts (next-most is Randy Johnson with 4,875)
7 career no-hitters (next-most is Sandy Koufax with 4)
Lowest career batting average allowed (minimum 1,500 innings pitched): .204
12 career 1-hitters, tied with Bob Feller
18 career 2-hitters
31 career 3-hitters
15 200-strikeout seasons
6 300-strikeout seasons
After much thought, I have to concede that Sandy Koufax deserves it more.
Koufax is the only pitcher in MLB history to lead the league in wins, earned run average and strikeouts three times in his three Cy Young Award-winning seasons. For the final five years of his 12-year career, he was the best pitcher in baseball, posting a 1.95 ERA in 181 games (176 starts) from 1962-66.
As good as he was during the regular season, Koufax fortified his legacy with legendary postseason performances. In leading the Los Angeles Dodgers to World Series titles in 1963 and 1965, Koufax went 4-1 in five starts. In all, he had a 0.86 ERA, struck out 52 in 42 innings and allowed 33 runners in 155 at-bats.
On two days' rest during the 1965 World Series, Koufax led the Dodgers to a Game 7 win over the Twins with a second consecutive complete-game shutout.
What about Johnny Bench?
Ricky, Rose, Ryan, Pujols, Jr
I don't like Alex Rodríguez but I'm surprised even with the drugs his name never even comes up.
I'm a Rickey Henderson in the top 10 supporter. His teams always won too.
How is this even a debate? Ohtani is the greatest of all time and not even close. Pitching at All Star level and hitting at MVP level. Now if you want for it to include resume/accomplishments, which Ohtani doesn't have yet, then it's Bonds
1 bonds
2 Rickey
3 Griffey
Griffey Jr for sure and Aaron Judge should be in the conversation. Ohtani no, its a niche thing to hit and pitch yet its worthless in the regular season. He doesnt pitch enough innings to really be a starter and he is a DH hitter. It special and could be great in the postseason yet Ohtani is a long man reliver who DHs.
If Ohtani returns to form in pitching, and could do waht he does for another 5-7 years, he'd be in that conversation, no doubt. Who else has pitched AND hit at a top 10 level season after season? Not even the old timers did that. I like Henderson, Griffey, and Bonds (his pre-steroid era numbers are off the charts). Maddux and Johnson could also be in that conversation as the best pitchers in their generation.
Nolan Ryan?
If Griffey did roids he might have hit over 100 homeruns. Goat.
Such an awful take 😂😂🤦♂️
@@MichaelTaylor-iz6yp what part?
@@jayo2654 That Griffey was goat or would hit 1K HR’s. Bonds even before the allegations was far superior. Griffey didn’t walk much and the kingdome was one of easiest parks to hit in. Great player and legend!! Just not on Bonds level
@@MichaelTaylor-iz6yp Bonds basically almost doubled his amount of home runs, if Griffey does that, then were looking at around 100. I get that not everybody is going to agree that he's the goat, but he's my goat.
@@MichaelTaylor-iz6ypStop with the revisionist history no one pre 1999 would take Bonds over Griffey
Griffey was best player in MLB from 1993-1999 and was named player of the decade
Couldn't explain it any better.
Yaz
The answer is Bonds
In a sport obsessed with 1000 diffrent stats, Old school or Next Gen. In a sport obsessed with history and tradition. No other player EVER, not Mays, not Babe, not Hank and not Griffey, no one was as feared as Bonds. No one was SO much better than anyone that they "broke the game". He is the ultimate answer to a childs what if question, what if you take the absolute best player in badeball and make him play on par with all the other cheaters. You get Bonds. More likely to get on base than to make an out.
what pisses me off about the whole roids in baseball discussion is who gets the blame. players, owners, execs, and commissioner get dragged for their part. yet the media conveniently forgets the role they played. they said NOTHING when marginal players began looking like nfl DBs and LBs. then suddenly there was a crusade to clean up the game when Bonds began obliterating records. now its an issue.
@@stingrey1571 when bad players became good, that was a nice story.
When good players became great it was "rising superstars".
When all stars became MVP level players, all at the same time, it was "great for baseball".
When fringe MVP players began breaking records it "saved the game of baseball".
But when 1 of 2 players (best in the game, best in a generation, inner circle guys) started doing it literally broke the game. Real life cheat code. That was too far and he got crucified amd took down all the juiced ball era.
Hypocracy
(The other was Griffey and kudos to him)
Pete Rose was great, but either only the 2nd (Joe Morgan) or 3rd (Bench) greatest living ballplayer from The Machine.
I didnt know Bonds did Roids... i thought he was on HGH.
Nobody would admit it because he's cheated half his career in Japan, but honestly it's Ichiro. Hit King plus 17 gold gloves. Has like 8 or 900 stolen bases and a hose. Nobody ran on him. Not to mention he would do things like walk off on Mariano Rivera when he wanted to.
Bonds all the way....greatest of all time....
i mean its barry bonds and i don't know how anyone can say anything otherwise. we can discuss our favorites but there's zero question who the goat of baseball is and always will be. griffey is my all time favorite athlete so i'd truly love to say him. ichiro deserves some mention as well
Sorry, but a roided up pro athlete is a cheater and that automatically elimates them as the GOAT. End of discussion... Griffey Jr. is at the top of the current list in my opinion. He was very close to being as good as Mays, but not quite...
I am reading a lot of comments exalting Ken Griffey Jr. Yes he was great but, we have to see the #'s. Bonds is the ONLY player with over 500 HRs and 500 SBs and that is a record that will likely never be reached. He also has 8 gold globes and had more doubles and triples than Griffey Jr. If we are going to talk about "the most complete player" then Bonds is it. Power, hitting, hitting discipline, speed, defense, and stamina. None of the mentions were as complete as Bonds. They all fall short in one or two aspects.
Thank you Bob Costas for talking about how great was the pre-steroids Barry Bonds. I loved watching him play on the Pirates.
My issue with saying "pre-steroid Bonds" is that you can't do that. There is no pretending 1999-2007 did not happen. For those of us who feel the evidence he cheated is large, he is eliminated from the conversation by his cheating. the only way to clean up the game is to hold the cheaters accountable, not by not caring and saying everybody did it.
I don’t care what Costas says, Bonds is the best, and it is what it is.
Rickey!
Ichiro > Rose
Koufax end of story
Koufax
Homer happy era?
You mean juice happy
Way to go completely off topic, Bob. We are talking about living players, not deceased players and rock bands.
And for the greatest living toupee wearing former broadcasters, bob costas, Marv Albert..
Sandy Koufax is still alive
Pete Rose SHOULD BE in the HOF. His lifetime ban does NOT match the crime. It has been long enough and you CAN NOT take away from what he did on the field.
How is it not Pete Rose?
Johnny Bench.
The steroid era saved the game yet the way people talk about it. MLB didn’t test for it until 2003
Trout should be in discussion if only these last few years he wasn’t hampered by injuries.
Agreed.
@@staubach1979rt Agreed
Trout not even close in the conversation.....did he ever do 30-30 5 Times????
The answer, clearly is Bonds. The thing with him is, even pre steroids, he was always a Horse's Behind.
Two other living players have a VERY strong case for being the all time best at their position in MLB history. .Mike Schmidt and Joe Morgan They belong in the discussion. Thanks.
Sorry, but a roided up pro athlete is a cheater and that automatically elimates them as the GOAT. Joe Morgan is deceased but his teammate, Johnny Bench is worthy of being in the discussion as the "Greatest Living Baseball Player".
The problem with Bonds is that this discussion is now based on people's opinion and nearly everybody hates Bonds, so that's always going to be a hurdle he just can't clear.
Albert Pujols?
Ricky Henderson is number 2 in my eyes. Pete Rose is number 3…
Hard to say but the contenders are:
Nolan Ryan
Sandy Koufax
Barry Bonds
Griffey Jr.
George Brett should be in the convo.
Why? He has as much WAR as Trout with 5000 extra plate appearances lol. Ever hear of Bonds, Arod, Clemens? PUJOLS? I'd put Yaz ahead of Brett as well, easy.
Reggie Jackson ?
how is nobody saying trout
Not one mention of ARod in comments or during interview. That’s very embarrassing…..for HIM! 😂🤣
The problem I have with Griffey & Bonds is they never won. When it counted, in the postseason, they were shitty. Minus roided Bonds in 2002. Give me Greg Maddux, or Rivera, or Mike Schmidt
Pete Rose
Ichiro was a better hitter, defender, base runner, and throwing arm. No way.
I don't like this hater talking about Ohtani.
These guys have to stop pretending like Bonds wasn’t simply part of the 75% of players that were juicing. Always acting like it was only him
Sadaharu Oh
Many people bring back watching baseball because Shohei Ohtani... period!😊
Pete Rose...???
Not even close.
A good player who played a really long time.
Never one of the top few players in the game.
He got to Cobb's hit record only because he kept playing the game when he was a below average player.
Six of his last 7 seasons he was a below average first baseman, sticking around just to try and catch Cobb.
Greatest living player...???
There have to be at least 20 guys in front of him. Maybe 30.
Bonds played against roid users
Not sure why you have to note a diff between pre and post roid bonds
Trout
Bob Costas always has to show off using big words.
Barry Bonds racked up 100 WAR from 1986 to 1998, the 13 years commonly believed to be the "clean" Barry Bonds seasons. That's how good he was.
For comparison's sake, Griffey played 20+ presumably clean seasons and ended up with 83.8 WAR. ARod played a similar duration to Griffey, probably none of which was clean, and he ended up with 117.6. Pujols had 93.1 WAR in his first 13 seasons, so even his legendary start to his career was behind pace of the clean Bonds years.
Great post.
I love how in one sentence you say "the 13 years commonly believed to be the clean Barry Bonds seasons." While then saying "Griffey Played 20 presumably clean seasons." While comparing their War. Let's see here...Griffey no accusations, no failed drug tests, no rumors, and had a career that is typical in the aging of a human.
Barry Bonds who had lots of accusations. Tons of rumors. No failed drug tests. Was proven to be funding an entire laboratory on juicing for him exclusively! So? We don't know how long Barry had been juicing honestly! He could have had a different laboratory that didn't do it as well as Balco doing it for him previously. We don't know anything other than the dude obviously juiced, and he f*cking did it at a different level than the guys in the same era who were also juicing. He basically funded an entire laboratory to make him a unique, and undetectable PED! He did the absolute most to remain undetectable, while also juicing to the gills.
He is the poster child for "Ego" and people truly don't think he was juicing in the really early 90's? If Canseco was talking about juicing being done in the early 90's as well? You don't think it's possible Barry was one of them? We don't have Chipper Jones, Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey Jr, Mike Piazza, Vladimir Guerrero, Andruw Jones, Fred McGriff, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, or Jim Thome juicing rumors. But, they are supposed to get lumped together because they played in same eras? Flawed thinking. People talk. Everything comes out in the end usually. It's a fact that there has been a juicer elected to the hall of fame that we didn't know about. I'd guarantee it. But, I'm guaranteeing it wasn't Griffey Jr.
@@shanenelson5811 I see you have an ax to grind with Barry. Fair. His personality during his career was grating.
My point is we don't monitor these guys 24/7. So while I'm more than willing to give the Griffeys and Thomases the benefit of the doubt and assume they were clean, it's not like any of us can actually prove that. Everyone (at least initially) denies using PEDs. That's why I say "presumably" for Griffey, because it's not like anyone can definitively prove it, but I'm fine assuming they were clean.
As for Barry, the lack of paper trail to using PEDs from 1986-1998 is good enough for me. What hard evidence do you have that he used PEDs in that time frame?
I just think it'd be silly to speculate that since Barry used PEDs from 1999 onward, let's assume he used prior. Maybe he did, who knows, but I personally assume he was clean until I read something conclusive that says otherwise.
@@mrmacross I'd say the proof that he was using before 1998 is in the eye test, and his statistics when you compare his 1980's numbers, and playing in Pittsburgh's home stadium? Compare them to his San Francisco statistics, and home stadium. The size difference of the fences, his age, his statistics, and then the fact that it was well known that players were starting to juice not just in baseball, but in all professional sports in the mid, and late 1980's more than had previously been known. The NFL was extremely bad. There is a good chance that the baseball players started juicing before the 1996-2003 era. I'd guess probably by about 10 years. We just didn't find out about it.
@@mrmacross Not to mention? When in the history of humankind? Has anyone playing a professional sport for a job? Become better and more powerful on a consistent basis as they were hitting 28-35 year old seasons? They don't. It's called logic. Pujols, Griffey, Thomas, Chipper, Vladimir Guerrero, Mike Trout, Giancarlo Stanton, Miguel Cabrera, and hundreds more will show you how the human body starts aging. Based on what? Their stats. There's no outlier. Father time is undefeated. Tom Brady for all his success at quarterback and longevity is more an anomaly due to the league changing the rules on contact to the quarterback more than Brady's ability physically. He trained damn hard but had great offensive lines, coaching, and defenses that were always there. Baseball is more about individual ability to go towards legacy. Bonds, Clemens, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, Sammy Sosa, Rafael Palmeiro, and Mark McGwire are always going to be marks because of them having some talent already that was good. That wasn't enough. They didn't want to have to train harder than everyone else to remain at the top. They wanted it without the hard work, and dedication alone. That's despicable. People like Juan Gonzalez, Andres Gaalaraga, Carlos Delgado, Jeff Bagwell, and similar? Who knows with all of those individuals if they were natural or not? I haven't read up on them enough to know either way. But, Clemens, Alex Rodriguez, and Barry Bonds especially? It's despicable these 3 dudes who were not just talented? But supremely more talented at younger ages than the other guys. It's despicable these 3 guys juiced. It just is. They already had the god given talents. They wanted more. That's why I don't put it past Bonds to have been juicing even earlier, but just to a smaller extent. An ego like that? There is no boundaries to what they will do for success.
Pete Rose.
Surely the greatest cannot be roid Kings. They are cheaters and you never know what they were "really" like.
Bo Jackson!
Bonds without a close second; obviously
Ohtani is what, a .275 lifetime hitter in 6 seasons. Please.
The problem that Bonds is always going to have in this debate is that everything is subjective and based on opinions. And unfortunately for Bonds, nearly everyone in the world hates him, so he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt on anything. That's just a hurdle he will never be able to clear. But I doubt he cares. He didn't care about how people felt about him then, so I doubt he cares now.