Tom Holland: Dominion and Conquest | Understanding the Christian Revolution and the Rise of Islam
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- čas přidán 19. 10. 2023
- In this video I have the pleasure of having a discussion with award winning author and podcaster Tom Holland. Tom is the host of the "The Rest is History" podcast and the author of many books such as: Dominion, The Shadow of the Sword, Rubicon, Pax, and Persian Fire. In addition to being a hit podcaster and a prolific author Tom Holland has also recorded a number of documentaries covering the rise of Islam and the advent of Christianity.
We focus on two of his books: Dominion and The Shadow of the Sword, which discuss the history of Christianity and Islam respectively. We discuss a wide range of topics including modernity, morality, the influence of Christianity on modern values, the rise of Islam, and the late and great Professor Patricia Crone. This is an episode packed with interesting ideas so I encourage you to listen to the end!
You can find Tom Holland's books and media below:
Books: www.amazon.com/stores/author/...
Podcast: open.spotify.com/show/7Cvsbcj...
Tom Holland is a treasure with a rare ability to "step outside" and then look inside the minds of people from very different times.
Tom Holland's history is beyond wonderful. Years ago one would have to attend a first class university to hear a lecture like this, it's almost unfair that we can listen for free.
But I must say that Tom Holland's view of religion is somewhat limited. For example, he seems to see religion as culturally created, a product of culture, which is the Marxist view of history.
Which is only to say that his view of religion is the average view of religion at this time.
In addition, Nietzsche's father was a Lutheran minister. And I often wondered if he rejected Christianity (though Jaspers felt he wasn't unfair to Christianity) because he rejected the limits or man in Lutheranism. Mr. Holland's choice is to take Nietzsche's path, which he doesn't want to do, or to accept the stories as true because of their power for good in the world. Not a bad choice. But I would suggest he consider was Christianity is in Catholicism, and perhaps he wouldn't have only these two choices.
Another example would be Tom Holland's example of the first being last, and the last being first. Certainly this is a Christian idea, not held by pagan religions, it is revolutionary. And Judeo-Christianity insists on the value of each person, while not favoring the lowly or poor over the rich just because they are poor (the Marxists go too far). But for Catholics, the main meaning of "the last will be first" has a spiritual meaning: because of what happened, the Jews who were first, will get there, but will be last, and the last, who were the Gentiles in Jesus' day, will be first - to accept and enter the kingdom of God (generally speaking).
Lol 😂 he is a popular ant Islam writer.
Finally you've invited Tom Holland on Dr Reybolds! 😊🙏🏻
I remember the C4 documentary airing in Ramadan, the controversy. It began my own journey to investigate origins of Islam confident that Tom Holland was wrong! A few years later had to admit that he was right, every area of the Standard Islamic Narrative under scrutiny unravels.
The music in that documentary 'Islam untold story' on c4 was hauntingly beautiful!
LOL! No serious Muslim scholar accepts Holland's narrative!
Then why was he invited on the channel? Dude I haven't watched the video yet, but what you're saying contradicts the actions of Gabriel said reynolds idk man but you could be right or wrong only more study and time will tell @@hassanmirza2392
No religious scholar*
@@hassanmirza2392 No serious scholar (Muslim or not) accepts the standard academic narrative. Studies and especially archeology have moved on since 2010 when Holland wrote the book and some of his ideas eg on Mecca and prayer direction are outdated. Others such as the late antique context for the rise of Islam, the gradual creation of the religion we recognise today through sira and hadiths and Malik's key role in Qu'ran canonisation are still very live and highly pertinent.
I remember when we Muslims dismissed Tom Holland but he asked the questions we Muslims were just too afraid to ask.
Ways to go Tom! Waiting for your next book. Thanks a lot.
I am so happy you have Tom Holland! Loved Dominion, but have some remaining questions about his views of Islam.
This is THE interview we've all been waiting for! Love Tom's works, Dr. Reynolds! Appreciate what both of you do so very much!
NO WAY!!!! One of my favorite authors on history meets Gabriel himself! Can't wait to listen to the podcast!
Yeah. Tom Holland actually wrote testimonial on prof. Reynold's The Quran and the Bible.
Gabriel!
Sorry, it's been awhile since I've had time to sit & watch more episodes. Congrats on the 4K new subscribers since then! Obviously due to fascinating episodes and guests like this one. I have to watch and read more of Tom Holland's work.
Thanks for posting!
This is such a great treat! Thank you Dr. Reynolds!
"Some will say I'm in heaven, some will say I'm in hell." - quote attributed to Hitler. Also see books on Hitler and the devil, the occult.
This is excellent! Great work. Im learning alot even as an ex Muslim
Why do you keep mentioning that you are an ex Muslim in every comment you write? 🤦♂️ Who cares? Get over it. Get an identity or something.
@@MCXM111 to weed out the snowflakes like you.
It's a channel critically discussing Islam and academically exposing the Standard Islamic Narrative. I used to believe in this mythology once upon a time, and now I don't but still have a fascination with human's abilities to make stories and cover them up
Maybe don't get so upset over stranger's comments on the internet
you are being brainwashed by christians. they define what a muslim is so you cant be one. they trapped you in their bubble. nobody believes this about islam except for christians and they say racist things too but you dont want to accept that
@@MCXM111because Ex-Muslim is an identity in itself for many people.
@@MCXM111
He is lost 😂
Excellent and informative. A further reminder that I have much more to learn.
Sister, Tom Holland is a well known anti-Islam writer. He attacks Islam all the time. Not much to learn from this clown. Do read Jonathan Brown's writing on Tom Holland's lies. Gabriel is a missionary and an orientalist.
Get Anna B Moreland on to talk about her book ‘Muhammad Reconsidered’
Professor, I think you should invest in a better webcam. The high-quality content deserves high-quality video
I know Tom Holland is fluent in Latin and French. But is he well-versed in German also? Anyone know?
He can read Greek and Latin too. I think I have seen him cite some German articles before in his books. My guess is he can work through a book or paper if he absolutely must, but the frequency with which he cites German sources is far less than French.
Thanks. Yes, I know he is fluent in French. And so I am not surprised.@@anthonyruggier7029
He is also quite fluent in lying about Islam. Hell will be very lively with such people, hopefully Reynolds will join Holland there for his worship of Jesus! Holland defends Zionism along with charlatans such as Hirsi Ali.
@@anthonyruggier7029 I think the fact he can't speak arabic is more problematic! Its easy enough to get English translation from German scholars of the late antique middle east/ Islam
Fantastic conversation between Gabriel and Tom. One of the best episodes in this series.
Plato - does anyone ever do what they think is not for the good?
And regarding Nietzsche and Darwin, as much as I love Tom, I think he gets true Darwinism wrong. Although indeed natural selection was used to support "social darwinism" (survival of the fittest) and that does indeed challenge Christian assumptions, NIetzsche pointed out what he thought true natural selection was, which is just simply adapatation to environment. And there are some environments where being "fittest" could get you UN-selected, and Nietzsche said how nature often tends to take care of the most mediocre the best.
👏🙂
Very interesting.
Great video
Hey can i ask you something since you've left islam and consider it to be false\unauthentic then why don't you try learn about the dharmic religions
because even as a muslim there's something about sanatan dharma that fascinates me
@@theguyver4934 what about Indian religions are interesting to you?
I just like history so I liked the history behind the stories and the people, but the religion never interested me
@@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen Come on man you can't deny the fact that karma & reincarnation is something very fascinating not to mention how rich these traditions are
here's a great idea why don't you try yoga
@@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen Hello your reply
@@theguyver4934 I'm sorry. I'm more interested in the truth of things. Sure God/s, reincarnation...etc are interesting but I find history of how these ideas developed and the people behind them much more interesting.
I agree yoga is good for your health and I try it before weight training.
In the Beginning was the Sword? The Camaraderie of Killers? 🤔
Can you discuss religion without accepting supernatural origins? I think if not that says a lot
Tells about the society if we are too scared to do that
Is there a forthcoming study in the evolution of Judaism, which would confront the issue of the "authority" of its "text" and social application.
Dominion addresses some of the questions of the early evolution of Judaism, but stops at Christ so nothing on the Talmud.
Have a nice evening!
greatest fan, Corina
The default mode is probably survival of the fittest.
He's aged a bit since playing Spiderman.
You're a legend 😂
The outcry in these comments is so strange. You all do realize this is what critical scholarship has been doing to the Bible and other holy books for 200 years at this point right? It's something believing Muslims are going to have to reconcile themselves to in the same way Christians have.
we dont want to be like you backward christians. this is not critical scholarship this is christians scholarship. he is mad his religion went to trash he wants to trash others
@@jj-yi1neTom holland is an atheist not a Christian
@@CuteChonkieswhich Holland would argue is still essentially Christian. Secularism is an outgrowth of Protestantism
@@michaelhart1072 Holland did mention that secular western values are influenced by Christianity, but saying that it is essentially Christian is a different thing altogether. I don’t see western secularism emphasizing on faith in God etc.
He makes a huge stretch…His entire thesis id based literally on a free selectively cherry picked lines from the New Testament taken out of context, with problematic translation, overly emphasized and reinterpreted in a way those lines were never understood or interpreted ot given such import historically by the “Church fathers” and reformers. Talk about engaging into mental acrobatics.
I wonder how much of the Islamic view of God is based on God in the Book of Revelation. God of power.
Every Surah in the Quran begins with "In the name of God most Compassionate most Merciful".
@@NoManIsAnIsland84 Yes, but the Islamic view of God as I understand it is a God of power.
Muhammad reconsidered Anna b moreland
45m - Islam
There was not a whole lot about Islam in this podcast. Interesting show, but less info on Islam than the title suggests.
Fantastic interview, thank you. Speaking of Nietzsche and Nazism and WW2, I think it's really important to remember what Nietzsche said before the world wars: "We [Germans] will have to pay dearly for having been Christians for 2 thousand years". czcams.com/video/IoT2Wy6kJyc/video.html
I m just confused what is different between what Hitler did and what west did to native Americans and blacks , Orientalism is really core in Holland thinking
In the case of native Americans and blacks, it was a matter of exploitation and control of the strong over the week. Hitler's goal was systematic extermination. Sadly, this is the story of human history across civilizations. As Tom Holland would point out, to even recognize it as evil has its roots in Christianity.
I'd love to have 30 minutes one on one with Tom Holland to talk about Darwin and his 'consequences'. Oh, yes, I'm a human biologist. Tom Holland RULEZ!
Jesus did die as a slave would die.
Best Episode so far. The facto that Arabs Had been thoroughly christianized and monotheistic Prior to the Advent of "Mohammed" renders the History of pagan mecca into the realms of fairy Tale, doesn't it?
@kilianklaiber6367
Absolutely! Flourishing and staunch communities and regions of "Pagan Arabs" is myth and more myth.
It’s quite ridiculous to imagine that the idea of helping the poor did not exist in ancient Egypt or the Mesopotamian culture at any time !!! I mean we know that Judaism had that idea
I think Tom holland defines terms like existence and “the world “ within the limits of the Roman Empire!!!
I haven't listened to this interview yet but I have heard Tom Holland acknowledge Judaism' shared values with Christianity.
I don't think he would argue there was absolutely no charity
prior to the Jesus revolution. But it certainly wouldn't have permeated those pagan cultures. Again, as he has said earlier, the belief in human rights is so widespread in the West as to be taken for granted that it has always been universal.
@@HiHoSilvey
It’s not only Judaism we find such teachings in the Egyptian sayings of amnobi and The Assyrian Ahigar and in many other cultures
As to it not prompting change in those cultures that is doubtful looking at history this idea was not revolutionary by Christianity, it has been there within other cultures
@@user-sj6kh4tb9t can you give some examples of ancient cultures where there was widespread acceptance of equality of women and of consent? Not even the Greek philosophers such as Plato, believed that all people were equal. That would have been a ridiculous concept.
Have you seen this 2 minute excerpt from a debate between Tom Holland and the English philosopher AC Grayling? They are talking about this very thing.
czcams.com/video/kGNE5HzNgfo/video.htmlsi=FpJca6rfZEx2eQno
@@user-sj6kh4tb9t please give examples of pre-Christian cultures where belief in the equality of women, children and slaves was so widespread that the cultures were impacted for generations.
In this 2-minute excerpt, Tom Holland responds to this challenge from atheist philosopher A.C. Grayling.
czcams.com/video/kGNE5HzNgfo/video.htmlsi=aayuEMWXfJpN2KxW
Well, P. Crone merit is to have search outside the traditional narrative. Unfortunately, reading her work about Quranic passages (Quranic pagans...) I realized that she was totally lost. Too bad.
there is no traditional narrative. there are many narratives she just picked the dumbest one. the christian one
So this man, is commenting about a book he doesn't know how to read?
Is anyone going to pretend anymore that Gabriel reynolds isn't an Islam hater. bringing on a pop historian is embarassing but I guess hating Islam does give you limits.
Spoken like a true Islamofascist.
Ah yes, the most common Muhammadan tactic of attempting to character assassinate who you don't agree with rather than discussing anything of substance.
We get you're trying to cope, but atleast have a little dignity when you do it
good 😁@@hkphooey2123
@@Skullman367 you are the fascist
@@hkphooey2123 you believe in a 3 headed man
Well, if Tom Holland is a historian, then I'm a nuclear scientist. LoL
Disappointed woth Gabriel for this.
He might be a learned scholar on Roman empire but he's not an expert on Islamic studies. His tone is very European/Western centric and islamophobic. Still I appreciate Dr. Reynolds' generosity in bringing him here in his channel. For me I would welcome others scholars like Bart Ehrman and Dale Martin whose expertise on Christianities would be more benefit to our Quran and Bible discussion.
He learned enough to know there are holes in the narrative. Islam has a narrative that is defended violently, but can't be aligned with history.
Bart Ehrman believes the evidence that Jesus was crucified to death which refutes the Quran.
@GaaraNous
Do you not realise the joke is on you when you use terms like "Islamophobic"? Keep using it, please. "Islamophobic" is so trivial.
I take it that you believe that the only relevant and accepted perspective there can ever be, is the islamic one. Quite kafferophobic, I'd say... Any subject should be regarded from any angle possible. Also from angles questioning what one takes for granted.
i take that you’re saying “critique christianity not islam “
Exactly. Kaffeerophobia and Paganophobia are what Muslims and their religion are guilty of (with genocidal outcomes). Yet, Muslims and their woke supporters/naive sympathisers go on about Islamophobia.@@bonnarlunda
Wait! So he made a hugely famous anti-islam book, but he's not a scholar of religions, he doesn't even have the languages necessary for the subject at hand, and his other books were pro-christian? And people took this man seriously?!! Gabriel, why do you even work in this field when outsiders can so easily impersonate it?
His book is as 'anti-islam' as any book Gabriel or any other guest he's had on has published themselves. If you think 'anti-islam' and 'pro-christian' are the only two categories you can find here, that says far more about you than Tom Holland.
@@MrHazz111
It says more about you when you're trying to force scientific neutrality into a book whose writer insisted he did not have the required academic background necessary to write a scientific/academic book about the subject.
Non-scientific, Non-Academic work ≈ Personal opinion
One-sided personal opinion = Bias.
The fact that you think criticizing the personal bias of a non-academic who seems to have a bias in one direction, makes me think you have the same bias.
So to make you feel better, I pray to Jesus that one day an actual religious study academic/expert proves, scientifically, that your religion is the more best religion and that islam is like the more incorrecter religion from the devil. Amen. Oh father who art in heaven.
Travellorme, I think your use of the word “scientific” may be misleading.
Tom Holland is a pop historian who seeks sensationalism, not scholarship. He is not an expert in the subjects he discusses; he only compiles undigested ideas of other revisionists. His documentary “Islam: The Untold Story” and his book “In the Shadow of the Sword” received many negative reviews from respectful scholars. I'm not going to get into the pointless debate about whether he is Islamophobic or not; I will only say that, in my opinion, his whole work on Early Islam can be qualified as mediocre amateurism. I think this episode is a huge setback for the show. Sorry!
>islamophobe
Stopped reading there
Nicely put. I totally agree.
@user-cm8jh1uq2j
I read "In The Shadow of The Sword", and I read a lot of reviews of that book. Most reviews of his book by other academics and experts were not negative at all. You don't know what you're talking about. You're just ranting against Tom Holland.
And you do realise that the joke is on you when you use terms like "Islamophobic"? Keep using it, please. "Islamophobic" is so trivial. If someone is "Islamophobic" after finding much of Sunni Islam repugnant, then so be it. In this case, being "Islamophobic" is a sign that someone has a conscience and is interested in morality and ethics and goodness. There is no imperative to find the bulk of Sunni Islam palatable. Or is there? Please tell me why should one find Sunni Islam palatable. Why should one find Catholicism palatable?
@user-cm8jh1uq2j
Please be specific. What was amateurish in his arguments in his book, "In The Shadow of the Sword"?
You obviously haven’t read his work.
There is nothing worse than a 'Born Again Christian'.
How about "sons of hell?" Matthew 23:15
Your channel is dedicated to promote this idea that Quran is a flawed document. However, never for once you have talked about well known corruptions and problems within Biblical text. I challenge you to invite John Barton and Bart Ehrman and Anthony Buzzard to talk about Orthodox Corruption of scriptures. Pretty sure you will never do it 😂 Because you are a charlatan. 😅
In the Quran it says that Allah sent down to the Israelites the Torah and the Gospel for Xns. God's word is protected and preserved from corruption.
@@robmckay5421
Yes, it was sent down to Israelites, but it got corrupted in transmission. Do read
Orthodox Corruptions of Scriptures
@everyisnaadisfabricated3784
Never it says this. Learn to read.
The qu'ran teaches that the Trinity is Father, Son and Mary - Christians have never taught this. We don't need an entire podcast to demonstrate that the quran is flawed.
Nope. Wrong!