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Alternative Win Conditions - Failed Cards and Mechanics
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- čas přidán 2. 11. 2022
- Check out the pokemon channel @thedexlogsdexlogs here: / @thedexlogsdexlogs
In Yu-Gi-Oh there are three standard ways of winning a Duel; The most common and well known is reducing your opponent’s life points to zero, with the second being the opponent surrendering, and the third being deck out.
But as well as the game’s main win conditions, there are also a number of alternative win conditions caused by card effects that we’re going to explore today and discuss why they never really took off and the issues with Alternative Win Conditions as a whole.
Script by Cursed Eyes
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The worst alternate win condition for me growing up was *Dinner is ready*
Where any players mom would decide to interrupt the game in favour of a meal and call the winner depending on who had the most lifepoints at the moment
_this is true, my mom knew some rules and this prevented arguments between my brothers_
That sounds like the role time rules play nowadays!
Cowboy for Dinner
"I draw my card and I play..."
"Alright boys, time for dinner!"
"...Sparks, dealing 200 LP for time and the round."
@@SproingBoing i hated it because my brother had a couple of _motion wave cannon_
My life points were ALWAYS be lower than his
@@owennakamoto4391 Dinner for game?
I love how the surrendering win condition is represented by floowandereze.
Considering their mechanics, it makes sense 🤣
Dude I've literally lost to time because I had the option to continue my main phase after Floo combo'd at the end of my turn like it was their turn. I thought the turn changed over and they were just thinking (which, to be fair, I shouldn't have assumed for a Floo player).
If it wasn't for the barrier statues I'd be questioning this, but yeah I know why
Oh shut up
I have noticed people are not surrendering when I play Floowanderezee so this is inaccurate.
I always forfeit before I win to give my opponent the ultimate win condition… friendship.
(reveals unity in hand) take the friendship
@@DarkSymphony777 I double surrender. Your friendship is too stronk for my Solfachord Surrender deck. GG well played.
what the fck. hahahaahaha
@@anavaeru (me holing my jank prediction princess hand) yay😀
@@DarkSymphony777 oh hello fellow flip enjoyer, the New support for prediction princess is pretty neat
I distinctly remember some years ago somebody asked a card designer "Why put bad cards in if you know nobody will play them?" and his response was something along the lines of "Not every card has to be for serious play, we print purposefully bad cards sometimes just for fun because if every card was 'the next must own' then the game wouldn't be able to sustain itself and burn out."
I'm paraphrasing, of course, but I'm inclined to agree since I love the goofy little cards they print out from time to time like the Normal Monster "Potato & Chips" which was made *_solely_* to promote a certain potato chip brand by including a copy with the promo snacks.
And playing those cards and winning a duel feels amazing.
It's actually because they need to add low rarity fluff so people have to pay more to be competitive.
Look at the article about Timmy, Jhonny and Spike. It explain a lot about card design in general, even if it's about MTG speciphically. Alternate win condition are very obvious Jhonny cards 90% of the times.
The thing is, they should try to encourage people to do that. In games like Master duel, maybe gem could be given to a win by alternative condition
@@patriotnguyen2721 they kinda are, alt win gives you even higher points so you get more chances to get gems from post battle rewards
Last turn really needed a "negate all effects in the field, then your opponent can special summon...."
What about cards that are unaffected by other cards(majespecter, ultimate falcon). They would cause multiple monsters to be on the board. Last turn is a problem child and must stay banned
I think Jowgen is more the reason it's banned. PSCT would solve most of the ruling questions, mainly because the major questions are "Does the opponent move into battle phase, does the battle occur in the phase of Last Turn's activation, or is there some unspecified new phase that Last Turn creates?" and "What if one monster leaves the field and returns to it?"
For the first question, just specify the phase the battle occurs in and deal with the PSCT based on that. For the second, there already is an implied statement there since both monsters are "selected" (old text that nowadays has been translated to "targeted") so the new effect would be "the player whose targeted monster remains alone on the field at the End Phase of this turn wins the duel."
@@Zetact_ they could even word it to have it negate the monster on board and negate the one that gets summoned. Or even have it pick the monster with the highest original attack and avoid any issues from battle protected monsters like time lords all together.
@@waylander9265 “ignoring their effects”, perhaps
@@MistaTrizzTV Negating on board kind of goes against the concept of the card, similar to how Kaiju counters was counterproductive to the concept of the Kaiju monsters.
I might be a bit biased because I do think that the wonky Last Turn cheese strats are kinda amusing and that the Jowgen or other similar interactions aren't really a problem. If I were to change its effect via errata what I would do is first and foremost have it send to GY via game mechanics and to get around stuff like Jowgen lock you could make it a Special Summon that ignores restrictions or even make something like your opponent "places" their monster on board. Like something that gets around SS restrictions only makes sense considering the cards in the art are 2 Spirit Monsters.
Ah yes. Alternate win conditions.
They're either WAY too good or WAY too bad.
I think that can be said for any card in Yugioh lol
@@muted1098 True. But alternate win conditions sum up the best.
@@kennydarmawan13 Agreed, it's either live or die basically, at least cards like Neos have a middle ground these ones don't
@@ironmaster6496 interesting
One of my favourite monsters is Number 88: Gimmick Puppet of Leo. It too has an alternate win condition. The fact that it got no mention in this video is a testament to how unremarkable it is. Poor Leo 😔
Well, it was never saw as much success as final countdown and it's not bad enough to be mentioned as his examples of impractical. He's one of my favorite win conditions monster too. He's not really one of my favorite alternate win conditions. He's one of my favorite monsters. I just use him as a boss monster to win by effect damage. Sadly, non targeting removal keeps being given like candy to link monsters. And board wipes were always a thing. Don't get me started on Evenly Matched...
I really like the artwork, and the whole aesthetic of Gimmick puppet in general but they're so bad, even in 2012
My favorite bad alternate win is C88. A 4500 untargetable boss which can deal 1000 burn damage each turn, up to four times. Obviously it really needs a win condition but only once it has no materials and your opponent is under 2000 and about to lose anyway!
if he was only untargetable by your opponents cards it might work with random crap like Oni-Gami combo to remove all his materials for two attacks to total 9,000 damage, so as long as your opponent doesn't control a monster with 3k+ attack you can OTK, but as it is despite playing puppets for about three years and summoning C88 in half those duels I never once got the win condition.
Base leo is just kinda meh, it takes 3 turns where you can't have s/t or battle phase, and loses to even bad synchro era removal like compulsory or book of moon.
I lost to a Leo a few weeks ago. I bricked bad and just let it happen.
@@UltimateHero128 I feel like "hats off to you" when my opponent manages to get a really weird win, unless it's something that irritates me like banishing my stuff. Did you feel like that when he won? Or did you just feel the same way you do when you lose "normally"?
I would have at least laid battle traps when being bricked. Or if I have spells that I wouldn't be able to use this turn or my next 3 ones (because no matter what I drew, the spell needed something I no longer had copies of in the deck or it needed certain combinations that would take more than 3 draw phases to get) I set them and pretend they're battle traps and just pray he thinks their bbattle traps.
When Disaster Leo gets out, Ash makes a descent blocker since he's not going to search for anything. There are traps that can protect Leo from board wipes, but any deck that can reliably turbo out Number 88: Gimmick Puppet of Leo, keep some traps to keep him safe, and leave room for backrow removal have nothing left to search for those traps if we assume a 40-card deck.
While talking about Angel of mischief, you could’ve mentioned Lyrilusc FTK, that by accident gave support to mischief’s win condition by attaching 10 materials to her
Honestly makes a decent case for making UDF with one less xyz on top of getting you access to an alternate win con. Mind you, Lyrilusc are already more than capable of making UDF in addition to Ensamblue and the Ghostrick engine does require you to run a garnet in the form of Ghostrick Shot, so you're probably better off saving that extra deck space for something else
Speaking of xyz win cons
I'm literally surprised that *NEITHER* number 88s made the list ( destiny and disaster leo)
I don't know why but the line "...but inspire certain duelists into trying to make them work" for a short moment pulled me into a world where Yu Gi Oh was as big as in the anime.
The thought of people toying around with funny bad card effects being described as "Inspired duelists" just has this sense of seriousness that you'd only expect in a world where dueling is THE big thing.
Beautiful.
I like this comment a lot.
I feel like it is very difficult to make an alternate win condition card that is good enough to be playable but not so good that it is banned.
It was easy. All the needed to do was have the summon during Last Turn not be negated!
They came close another time.
Number C88: Gimmick Puppet Disaster Leo is almost good enough to be playable before the link era, now it's just bad. Unlike a lot of the other monsters with win conditions, it has some protection. Unfortunately, it is targeting protection. If it was "unaffected by monster effects except Numbers or non-extra deck Aqua, Machine, Spellcaster, and Warrior monsters" then it would see at least Rogue success. Although most of the wins would be due to simply burning opponents through its effect, but every now and then an opponent who hangs on by a thread would be hit by the alternative win. Sadly, because its protection isn't very good, it wasn't even great back then and links sped the game enough to make it... a gimmick.
@@alex_zetsu: I feel it would still be broken and probably banned.
@@chengliu872 If such a card was in a Dark Magician deck, that would probably be broken. Gimmick Puppets don't exactly have a lot of support. it would hardly be broken since there are plenty of cards like Compulsory Evacuation Device. Heck, it could even be stopped by Scrap Iron Scarecrow. Actual Leo can't be targeted so he escapes Scrap Iron, but he's killable by so many things.
But same can be said for Underworld Goddess of the Closed World. Underworld Goddess is considered playable but not broken. She has great protection (actually even better protection than my hypothetical Number C88: Gimmick Puppet Disaster Leo which is a nerfed version of anime Disaster Leo), a graveyard lock, but isn't considered broken. My example has a weaker protection, but still good protection, and the TCG's burn effect. It would hardly be broken if a card with stronger protection is unlimited.
So in the actual TCG, Disaster Leo can be killed by Destiny Hero Destroyer Pheonix Enforcer. My Disaster Leo couldn't be... but DPE can be used to remove the Gimmick Puppet's backrow and then just use a spell or trap on Leo. If DPE is weaker than Underworld Goddess and DPE can work around him despite not being able to kill him, it'd hardly be broken.
@@alex_zetsu: I meant if they errata'd Last Turn to have it be the same except that all card effects are negated, it would still be broken.
@@chengliu872 No a Last Turn that will summon ignoring all summoning conditions and can't be negated would be perfect
Watched coder play floo for a bit today and get back to back surrenders, so floo representing the surrender win condition is 100% accurate it seems
Haven't played Yugioh since high school (2009), but I got curious and started bingeing this channel.
Kinda got me back into Yugioh and I ended up buying Yugioh Legacy of the Duelist (Link Evolution) for PC.
Learning about Pendulum and Link summoning made my head spin at first, but it's not that complicated. Makes things interesting.
Play a bit of Duel Links to get a hang of it, then maybe switch to Master Duel once you feel DL is lacking (MD resemble the TCG the most).
We found the rare player that comes back, and instead of whining they actually try and learn pends and links.
Same story here. When I did the pendulum tutorial I literally burst out laughing at how OP it was compared to the old game that I knew.
It's wild to see the direction the game has taken, but I'm into it. I've had a *lot* of fun recreating my old decks but with the addition of synchros, links and xyzs to make it an entirely new experience. Sometimes it even works 😂
Strictly speaking, surrendering is the most frequent situation of the 3.
I wouldn't even call these failed mechanics - alternate win conditions are bad on purpose, because if they're good they're oppressive
ppl would be maining droll like crazy.
True. Imagine if more Alt Wins came to the meta. It really would then be purely who went first
And if you do manage to Pull it out. It does lead to a very fun experience
So basically link spam?
There is a card in MtG called Laboratory Maniac, with an effect that you win the game when you draw from an empty deck.
I wonder how a card like that would work in Yugioh
It would probably be broken in YGO, as the Danger! archetype is known to be the number 1 method to easily go through all of your deck in a single turn, not to mention the fact that they can’t be stopped by an Ash Blossom
If it weren’t for the Dangers being in the game, it would be interesting
@@ryveleona7513 Question:
I know there is a rule in YGO that you can't activate an effect if it can't fully resolve (e.g. you can't activate Reinforcment of the Army if there is no warrior in your deck).
So, can you activate a draw effect if there is no card in your deck?
@@laszlokaszas1003 yes, normally you'd just lose
@@laszlokaszas1003 thats even covered in the Anime. Yugi emptied the Deck of his opponent with a Spiral of Draw Effects until he lost. That was hilarious to watch.
True story inbound about an alternate win condition. It was the early 2000s, and I was in a yugioh tournament with big cash prizes on the line. I'd won about 80% of the tournaments I'd entered weekly around the state over the past year, so I was admittedly feeling a bit cocky. It's the opening round of a single elimination tournament, and what I'd estimate was about a 10 year old sits across from me at the table, setting down a giant deck probably about 100 cards in total size (this tournament had no upper limit on deck size). He has a friend his age with him and they're both talking excitedly. I, late teens at this point, shuffle my deck as usual, not even paying attention to the way the kid is shuffling his deck, then offer it to him to cut, he declines, so when he offers his to me, I do the same. I win the coin toss to go first, we each draw our opening hand, and then my opponent reveals that he has just drawn all 5 pieces of exodia with his opening hand and thus won game 1.
Luckily it was a best 2 out of 3 format, so I made sure to both supervise his shuffling, and cut his deck in our next two games which I won easily, but obviously that memory has always stuck with me.
Stacking...
Lmao that’s great that taught you to always shuffle your opponents deck in tournament
Big cash prize in early yugioh? Lol yeah right
@@Donrickytheonlyone Well "big" is relative, like I won 200 dollars at one of my first ones I ever entered, some might consider that small peanuts, to me that was big money for a card game. Most of the tournaments I won the prizes were more in the 50 dollar range, but I was winning them weekly for a while so it added up to paying my way through community college.
@@DanTheMeek should of switched to pokemon for those scholarships
I wouldn’t say winning through alternative conditions to be a failure, just gimmicky at best. There is also a lot of community backlash and stigma when it comes to winning through alternative conditions as well, so there is also that to consider.
Is it backlash to the win condition of Mystic Mine? I don't feel like there was stigma to older stall cards like Waboku and Scrap Iron. Ironically Mystical Space Typhoon is an out to all of them, yet I agree MM is fucking annoying. One thing I like about Mystic Mine is that it forces your opponent to main deck removal tools instead of relying on Knightmare unicorn. I like what I think Konami was going for with Mystic Mine. Sadly, it also neutralizes main deck monsters.
a lot of alternative win condition stigma comes from flood gates and one turn wins more than the winning by not reducing lp to 0. since alt wins are very hard to balance so dont allow for interactivity either due to flood gates or being a fragile deck that puts up no fight when disrupted
I love that flying elephant is just so that a card exist to explain how pegasus had that kid beat Bandit Keith lol
Surrender definitely became more common when you get sick of the 8th negate or waiting 20mins to play
Surrendering feels worse when your oponent literally intends you to do it
i got a dude in MD who summoned like 3 diferent stardust dragons, archfiend dragons and a baroness de fleur, literally all negates, he could have easily OTK me, but nope, he negated ALL effects, and then passed turn, literally they expect you to either surrender, deck out or just wait until they are down to very few cards in the deck order to OTK.
Shame i didn't have a maxx c on the first turn
Given MD has a reward system for deck outs it’s possible they were trying to grind it
There are some interesting cases of alternate win cons in certain decks that are put on top of a card that you might want to run for a strategy anyway, or ones that are designed for alternate win con decks to give them a normal strategy to run along with the win con. Like Ghostrick Angel of Mischief or how Exodia Incarnate was designed to let you run a beatdown variant of a regular Exodia deck. The problem in those cases is that the win condition is either too inconvenient that it might as well not be there, or that playing an alt win con deck with a backup strategy like Exodia Incarnate doesn't work because in current Yu-Gi-Oh if Plan A fails then you've already lost.
Imagine an archetype that all had monsters with very difficult win conditions attached to their effects, but they also had other effects that made them viable to play without satisfying any of the conditions
I was playing duel links and got exodia used on me because they facilitated it through Heart of the Underdog. (During you draw phase, if you draw a normal monster, reveal it and draw one more card.) and high DEF, normal monsters.
"Alternative win conditions are usually slow and clunky so that it doesn't ruin the opponents chance to play the game." Ironic considering how competitive yugioh has gotten in recent years.
So basically the problem is that they’re deliberately weak, niche or difficult to use because whenever they’re NOT in regards to the day to day meta they tend to be an unhealthy meta threat?
How more cards like _relay soul_ with really Really REALLY powerful effects that force the user to lose the game if certain conditions are met?
I like to think these alternative win conditions are made and kept around mostly as markers for the game state. If an alternative win condition is actually viable and consistent in a meta, you know that the game is actually in a broken state. With Exodia it could show that finding 5 specific cards is becoming too easy, with Ghost trick it might be to show that it’s getting to easy to stack an XYZ monster with materials for broken effects, with spirit board it could be how consistent it is to stall or find certain spells and traps, and for final countdown for stall decks. But I do like the mechanics of these strategies and hope that the game produces more since they make the game more interesting overall.
That may be an accident. I'm 100% sure Konami's design teams didn't design alternate win conditions for that exact purpose.
@@jshtng78 sure, but if it works, it works.
The most successful Exodia variant wasn't actually the World Championship variant, mind. It was the very earliest iteration of the deck, which was only available in the OCG. At the time, Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, Sangan, and Witch of the Black Forest were unlimited, and at the time, Sangan and Witch's effects activated if they hit the Graveyard by any means, so they triggered off Graceful Charity. Most other discard cards hadn't been released yet, so your only counters were Needle Worm and Morphing Jar. On top of that, Last Will was legal and its effect wasn't once per turn due to terrible wording, so crashing Sangan and Witch was an OTK. It was genuinely the first Tier 0 deck, even if it didn't last long.
I like alternative win conditions because a unique deck building is required to make it work. It's fun to see those decks in action (even counting D.D. Dynamite strategy as such.)
But they're also some of the least enjoyable decks to play against, and remove many of the skills from play that make Yugioh appealing at all
D.D. Dynamite is an OTK but not an alternative win condition because it falls into the 'reduce opponent's LP to 0' regular win con.
@@ellachino4799 The design philosophy of every single YGO deck maximizes fun for the person playing it and after release is when Konami needs to scramble and address issues with playing against it.
@@ellachino4799 depends, if they do manage to Pull out one of the mroe difficult ones like flying elephant. It does leak to some laughs
My favorite self made meme deck was Exodia Lightsworn. The idea was to mill my entire deck to the gy then return the pieces of exodia to my had
2:05 I love how the third option of surrendering is using the example of the floowandereeze deck. I instantly surrender when i see this deck on master duel. Not bc its "amazing" but bc i dont have 30 minutes to watch u recycle ur whole deck while its MY TURN. This deck def needs some erratas/bans.
Personally, I kinda like the direction the game took with Exodia when it added Legendary Exodia Incarnate and Obliterate. It kept the alternative win condition/play style while adding a "Plan B" to beat the opponent the more traditional way, which I thought was pretty cool.
One of my favorite small archetype is Phantasm Spiral and it has a card with a alternative win condition too which is called Phantasm Spiral Assault.
It basically has Vennominaga like effect, but you must first target 1 Phantasm Spiral Dragon that you control.
Then, the Dragon has to destroy 3 Effect monsters your opponent controls by battle and to add more salt to the wound, it has to equipped with 3 different equip spell cards.
Specifically 3 different Phantasm Spiral equip spell cards in which, there are only 3 equip spell cards in the deck, and then you win the duel.
You can do that, or not be an idiot and go for the OTK strat instead.
The only good thing about Assault is is its second effect which it just banishes itself to prevent a your normal monster(s) from battle or card destruction.
I'll let you guess how many Assault were ran in a Phantasm Spiral deck in a beat case scenario.
17:11 editing mistake- ghostrick angles effect is 10 EXACT materials, having 11 or more WILL NOT trigger its win effect
The ultimate win condition, your opponent plays blue eyes brick dragon
How about a video about *Archfiends* as failed cards of an archetype?
I remember back in the day I had cards like Last Turn and Pole Position and others and I always found them to be interesting but way too convulated and just not good so I never used them. I was always worried I was missing out just cause dumb little kid doesn't understand the game. Then come way later when I got back into yugioh it was really nice to see I was right the whole time and see these cards appearing on videos like this and iceberg charts because they're so infamous and weird lol.
I love ur vídeos. They are full of content, context and also bring me some of the card was use during the games years.
I would love to see the perspective of the todays yugioh, with all these kind card and evocation, from a person that stills plays.
As many I stop playing on xyz cards, and since them the game seens so crazy fast that looks like isnt playable.
Destiny Board is one of my favourite decks thematically. I wish it had more support.
I mean, the funniest way of winning via Jackpot 7 is if you somehow drew all 3, put them on the field face down, then you opponent destroys all of them via Harpies Feather Duster.
Honestly I could reliably draw 3 copies of a card in 7/8 duels in my opening hand... I'd probably pick "7" even if my opponent ran Harpie's Feather Duster 100% of the time.
Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
I've wanted a video like this for awhile. It's only 4 minutes old and I paused to write this but I know it will earn the thumbs up.
I really think Last Turn was a missed opportunity. if they had an errata to make your opponent draw 3 cards and you can't negate a summon from their hand, it could have seen some play without being completely broken just by blocking the summon.
Nah, just make both monster's effect negated so both you and your opponents monster summon a pure beatstick. Boom it fixed.
It's balanced by the fact that you can only use monster currently on the field while your opponent can freely summon anything from the deck.
@@sigmaenjoyer7020 I know you can only use a monster you currently control and that your opponent can freely summon anything from their deck (my suggestion was to add the hand, but now I realize you need another clause to negate handtraps) but I don't want to negate the on field monster's effects because some have attack modifiers. On the other hand, it needs to make sure the monsters don't have removal against each other since that also goes against the spirit of the card.
@@alex_zetsu you need to tell me the full picture of what you're suggesting here. Like how much you want to change this card so I can properly understand your view.
@@sigmaenjoyer7020 I see three problems with last turn. Problem 1 (biggest one by far) summon can be negated giving you an instant win. Problem 2, by not allowing hand summons, you punish your opponent from drawing his giant beatstick. Problem 3, Eater of Millions like effect.
My revision would be "This card can only be activated during your opponent's turn when your Life Points are 1000 or less. Select 1 monster on your side of the field and send all other cards on the field to the graveyard. After that, your opponent draws 3 cards and selects and Special Summons 1 monster from their Deck or hand and attacks your selected monster. (Any Battle Damage from this battle is treated as 0.). A summon from the hand cannot be negated. The monsters are unaffected by opponent card effects. Cards cannot be activated from the hand. The player whose monster remains alone on the field at the End Phase of this turn wins the Duel. Any other case results in a DRAW"
This leaves monsters who have effects for their own ATK intact. I could say the summon can't be negated entirely, but if you feed your opponent 3 cards and the summon can't be negated from the hand, cards like Jowjen would just die. Perhaps I'm wrong on this and the summon would need to be unnegatable no matter what but if they gave Last Turn a chance, this I think this should give given a try. I mean 3 cards is... well 3 cards. Giving your opponent anything in their deck makes it fair, but I want to allow his hand monsters to save him too.
I guess the user of Last Turn can just setup his board, summon Avramax with I:P as material and your opponents will wish they draw Kaiju with those 3 draws or they play Gren Maju and normal summon it provided he has bunch of cards banished before hand. The user can still cheat it in some way which is why Last Turn is so good, Dinomorphia will main this card and despite having no card in the field bunch of their trap can protect them in the GY. While their fusion monster like Rexterm can theoritically beat any monster who relied on atk. There's still bunch of problem because monster effect is allowed.
Alternate win conditions are kind of like touch of death combos in fighting games; they can exist, but if they're too easy or consistent it creates a serious problem for the game. If alternative win conditions ever become too practical there won't really be a reason to play anything else.
According to YGO wiki True Exodia was the last card Kazuki Takahashi provided original art for before he died
Venominaga kinda fails in a different sense. In a dedicated Venominaga deck, you're far more likely to win via battle damage than by the Hyper Venom Counters.
But Alt WinCons are a lot of fun to play, and are incredibly satisfying to pull off.
I thought I had a stroke when I saw that "True Exodia" card.
I've never seen the card's art or effect before this video and it caught me so off-guard to see such a minuscule Exodia.
The pokemon content is soooo good tho yet again you get my attention with a game I don’t even play haha
One thing to note.
Exodia decks are limited to one copy per piece, because having three of each would get really strong.
I think its more theming since the pieces are bricky with too many pieces not giving enough draw cards.
@@randomprotag9329 true. That's kinda an issue.
Too many, you bricked. Too few, lower chances.
The pieces themselves are complete bricks. Excluding the case where one draws all 5 pieces in one's opening hand, the probability of winning the game decreases with each piece in one's opening hand (maybe 4 is more likely than 3, but it's less likely than 0). Furthermore, one of the things that can prevent an Exodia deck from winning is drawing pieces of exodia before the floodgates/draw engine is fully set up. One would not want to play thr pieces at 3/3/3/3/3 - or even 2/1/1/1/1 - for this reason, even if one could.
(edit - grammar)
@@delta3244 yeah. You either bricked or not. Not in-between.
Exodia is at one because of the anime, it's not actually strong enough to warrant that
I'd really like to see a Top 10 Worst/Best Fiend Monsters if you still want ideas
You should have named the video "Duel Logs favorite way to play - Failed Cards and Mechanics"
Alterbate wins and floodgates are your thing xD
because I play em so much I know just how bad they are
2:01 *F✱✱✱ Floowandereeze.*
Honestly the most common is them surrendering if your deck is cancer enough
which is all competitive YGO
Think people would play:
Pot of Need
Draw 2 cards. This card's activation and effect cannot be negated. During the End Phase of the turn this card was activated, your opponent wins the duel.
No, not enough advantage for an instant win
If it said your opponent wins after the end of your next turn then it'd probably be interesting and balanced
Pot of sneed
Sounds good for FTKs
The way you described alternate win conditions through brittle combo lines weak to hand traps is so accurate. Just like my Vylon Smoke Grenade 6 card hand rip FTK, and my Vylon Bamboo sword Turn Skip FTK, actually that goes for all my Vylon FTK decks no matter which variant it is because they all utilize the Element Loop which is exactly as you said, a brittle combo line that's weak to hand traps, but if it goes off without interruptions, then your guaranteed to win.
That's usually how it is and it's how they purposely design them IMHO because if not it would be too easy to pull off, which would make it less interesting. It's the challenge of performing the alternative win condition that makes playing it fun.
There is actually another way to set up the win condition for flying elephant without relying on your opponent at all. You can use give and take to summon queen angel of roses to your opponents side of the field during their draw phase, if flying elephant has the lowest atk then it will survive that. Its based on another youtubers strategy with the card summon sorceres but i dont use summon sorceres in my deck. Its still fun to do this.
Next suggestion to failed cards and mechanics: the nordic archtype including Odin, Thor and Loki
You can tell how surrender included "if it's going to take too much time" definitely shows you've played master duel.
Musical Sumo Dice Games is an extraordinarily funny card. One of these days I will build a deck around it.
18:34
There are ways to fix this one:
_This card can only be activated during your opponents turn when they have reduced your LP to 1000 or less by battle or card effect during the duel_ (make it so YOU can’t deliberately lower the LP yourself for cheat out the conditions)
_Send all cards in each players respective hand, field, GY and banish zone back to their deck, ignoring and negating all card effects_ (so the board is set in a complete vacuum where neither player can rely on ANYTHING but the monsters they summon. No floodgates, no GY or hand trap shenanigans)
_After that, Both players summon 1 non-Creator God monster from their deck or extra deck in face-up attack position, ignoring their summoning conditions (This counts as the summoning type of the type of monster summoned)_ (So basically ANY monster in the game is fair game, and said summoning counts as a proper summoning for special summon only monsters like rituals and extra deck monsters. Like if you summon a ritual monster it counts as a ritual summon.)
And then the rest of the effect proceeds as normal.
You take that back, it’s the most successful mechanic ever :(
I think the best AWC cards are those that act as an additional option. For example, with Final Countdown, it acts as a good option for cases where either neither player is able to pull off their OTKs or you’re playing a stall deck (often with Mystic Mine, of course), and you might want to have a backup option in case you can’t win outright (like your opponent destroying your burn damage or milling cards but not being able to get rid of your floodgates). (You can also get around Final Countdown’s cost with Spell Economics and prevent Mystic Mine from destroying itself by its own effect either with a card that repeatedly Summons Monsters (possibly Tokens) to your opponent’s side of the field or with a card that prevents Mystic Mine from being destroyed (like with Field Barrier). Really, if they are simply just an option rather than the main goal (like with that one Ghostrick Xyz Monster, which is useful without using its AWC but can also realistically achieve its AWC, or Exodius, which can be used as an easy way to get a high-level monster to the field without using up your Normal Summon/Set for the turn and then be used for Synchro or Xyz Summons) or if they’re used to manipulate your opponent (for example, activating Jackpot 7 to make your opponent more careful about destroying your backrow and hand or milling you while you make your main play, possibly using cards that use Spell Counters or something), AWC cards can actually be useful even without actually pulling off an AWC. Final Countdown can also be useful outside of its AWC: it costs 2000 LP to activate, and no other conditions or costs are required for its activation, so if you need to get your LP lower than your opponent’s or down to a certain amount for some reason (there are several good cards that can make use of this), Final Countdown can be used to help reach that state.
And while AWCs are, with very few exceptions, not really viable or consistent in the modern TCG, they really allow players to flex their creativity and skill by figuring out ways to pull them off.
I don’t think AWCs are really a failed game mechanic per se because, while they don’t see much play or success in the modern meta for serious play, I don’t thing they were intended to be used as such to begin with. Generally, they were always meant to be either an additional option, as something to be used in the anime to put the main character in a difficult position (like with Destiny Board and the Gimmick Puppets), or as just a gimmick for fun or for an additional challenge. Heck, two of the cards with an AWC (Gimmick Puppet Leo and its ranked-up version) literally have “Gimmick” in their names! Contrast this with things like Spirit, Union, Gemini, LV, or /Assault Mode Monsters, which were intended to be used as significant parts of the game but failed in just about every way (at least until new supports came out for them long after the fact, and even then not for their original purposes per se); those would definitely be failed game mechanics because they just didn’t work as intended in a way that was useful to most players. Even as someone who has always had a soft spot for Union and LV monsters, I recognize that they’re pretty useless as such, and people who use them rarely use them for their functions as Union or LV monsters but either because of other cards that use them or by using ways to get around their being such. The A through Z monsters almost never use their Union effects (except as a way to get them onto the field like through Union Hangar); Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV 8 and Silent Magician LV 8 were used to block Spells, and only really when alternative ways to Summon them (like Level Up!! or Silent Magician) were used; Dark Mimic LV 1 and LV 3 were used not as LV monsters but because they had the effect to draw cards, with LV 3 almost never being Summoned using LV 1 in some manner as intended; and the most successful Gemini monsters were almost never used for their Gemini effect but for other reasons (like Neos Alias being a Level-4 Elemental HERO and Neos monster with 1900 ATK and which, while on the field or in the GY without being Gemini Summoned, is treated as a Normal Monster, which is great because several HERO supports require Normal Monsters on the field or in the GY and the other options are either not useful generally except as Fusion Material (Avian, Burstinatrix, and Sparkman), more of a defensive option (Clayman), or require Tribute(s) for a Normal Summon (Neos) to make them harder to get out. Even then, they were very much the same exception rather than the rule. AWCs, though, don’t really fit that.
Love your vids,hiruma they help me fall asleep *this is a compliment*
Floo is such a perfect representation of surrender, either you go first and I surrender or vice versa
The only fun wincon is Jackpot 7, you build it with hippo. Thus letting you use all kind of wincon on same deck. You just go whatever your opening Hand are.
• Inferno Tempest Necroface (Deckout)
• Leeching the Light Hippo (Life Points)
• Jackpot (Alt Wincon)
• Opponent See huge Hippo (Surrender)
Honestly...Rivalry Of Warlords and Gozen Match are pointless against a lot of decks. I'm playing mostly Fire Fists or Fire Kings. Neither deck would care a lot about either card. Fire Fists are quite powerful on their own and Fire Kings are either Arvata-control or only have Garunix on the field.
Related, I think 'mill the opponent' cards are a great idea for this series. Yeah, you can still win with it if things go right, but it's one that they clearly thought was going to be a much more viable strategy than it ended up being thanks to how the game shook out.
“surrending” right at the start of the video…this gonna be a good one
The surrendering win condition represented by Floo
Yeah, checks out.
Nice, i´m going to check the DexLogs
Back in High School I used to run an Exodia deck based around Appropriate. Wasn't super successful, but was always fun to play with friends. Once hand traps became more prevalent, especially Ash Blossom, a draw engine that relied on your opponent drawing extra cards was a lot less viable. When it worked it was usually a 2nd or 3rd turn win though.
i thought exodia also won worlds in 2017 bc the player realized nothing in the meta at the time was even remotely prepared for it so they switched out their normal deck last minute for exodia before heading out.
Exodia, and also magical explosion, are why konami can't make any more generic draw cards.
Pokemon really needs something like this (possibly formats rather than cards). There's no reason to build fun decks online when you have to compete with competative decks on casual: people only seem to be interested in winning and not actually playing the game.
Exodia was always my favorite alternative win condition. A lot of good players will sniff out an Exodia deck right away, but pulling it off is more satisfying than purely beating down life points.
Way back in the day (I’m talking like 2000) before the banlist was established, Exodia was so overwhelming that it was the *only* strategy worth running. Because when you run three Pots, three Graceful, three Sangan and Black Witch, three of each piece...sure, you can brick, but you can also just win on your first turn relatively easily, so why run anything else? Not to mention that in Japanese, according to the wiki, Sangan and Witch just had to be placed on the grave for their effrcts, not even from the field.
Imagine having an Alternative Lose Condition
"draw 2 cards. At the next Standby Phase, you lose"
I feel like at this point every card in existence will be a “failed card” with how many of these he’s making
I didn't know that duel academia courses were available in CZcams !
In MtG, alternate win conditions are a lot less clunky, easier to balance due to a more separate resource system, and can work in non-dedicated decks.
Test of Endurance, Thassa's Oracle, and Revel in Riches come to mind.
Wait what do you mean Test of Endurance can work in a non-dedicated deck?
@@alex_zetsu As in, as you play Test of Endurance and you use good life gain cards, like Scavenging Ooze, that card can make you win the match as you play.
LMAO the surrender being represented by Floo. Damn.
Holactie and Venominaga are two of my favorite cards. Wish they would add Holactie to Master Duel.
Insanely disappointed TheDuelLogs didn't say the patented 'Royal Magical Lie-berry' 😢. Feels like I'm watching my 6th favorite custom card reviewer now.
You should make a video about mill decks like the Mayakashi Skull Tower Mill
Jeff Leonard's YCS win recently shows alternate win conditions can still be competitive.
Is Horakhty a thing still, at least in Master Duel?
Because while I could be wrong, it seems like it's been getting easier to get the Egyptian God Cards out for that setup nowadays.
When pegasus was dueling bandit keith in the anime flashback and called a kid from the crowd to play, he actually won with flying elephant
I always found the alternative win conditions useful as distraction strategies rather than actual winning strategies. A lot of players in my experience will usually use a lot of resources to destroy an instant win card, which means that if I gave it basic protection here and there, I could usually achieve my real strategy of milling or chipping without too much resistance... Tho that was many years ago and I dropped out of Yu-Gi-Oh when money problems started preventing me from being able to enjoy the game so maybe now they're just wastes of deck space.
I want MORE alternative win conditions
They're so fun
He use Floowandereeze in surrendering
And yep, that deck really anoying
Wait, the last deck I played before I went on my yugioh Hiatus was that deck. What the heck did Konami do to my adorable birbs?
I am curious if it would be possible for there to ever be a meta archetype who's entire gameplan is an alternate win condition. Like, an archetype designed to make you win only by the alterbate win condition and none of the standard win conditions.
It doesn't seem so. It seems to me that almost all AWCs are either unplayable or banned.
I wonder how good Last Turn will be these days due to the various extra deck monsters that are far stronger than any in the main deck. For example, you could activate pay turn when you control a 3000 attack cannon and you opponent best main deck creature is a 2200 combo piece meant to help summon their extra deck monster
Flying Elephant works good with Infected Mail (continious spellcard from GENF allowing any monster lvl 4 or less you control to attack your opponent directly BUT you have to send it to the GY after the battle phase).
And Last turn is great in a Ra deck
Alternative win cons are kinda like weak archetypes: they may not be competitively viable, but the playstyle they encourage might just be your idea of fun. Like, as much as I hate FTK's, I find Lyrilusc Angel FTK fascinating to watch, and while the optimal decks and turns have long been figured out, the crafting process must've been a load of fun.
I want a 0 mana colorless instant that's text is simply "Congratulations, you just won the game."
Bro if you need floodgates to get into your winning condition, you're just winning by floodgates
If I ever get back into Yu-Gi-Oh! I’m committed to making a deck that includes Exodia, Destiny Board, Final Destination and at least 1 other alt. win + floodgates out the ass. I would be unstoppable.
my favorite alt win con is Snake Deity personally
Right after the first wave of bans, the split between traditional/limited formats, and all the GX-era cards started coming out, Final Countdown suddenly went from ridiculous "that'll never work" to actually plausible as the game slowed down by an order of magnitude. I built a high-defense rock deck at that point that could achieve FC wins. Never used it in anything other than a casual setting though; I'm sure it'd have been annihilated in any kind of tournament.
Lol Last Turn use to reck our tournaments back in 2003-2004
Number iC1000: Numerounius Numerounia is probably one of my favorite alternate win conditions. It may not be practical, but it is fun.
I remember back in early high School I ran a venom swamp deck, but kept losing because my opponent would just keep decking me out by stalling. So I put exodia in my deck, unfortunately it's one of those strategies that usually only works once
So the really old combo activating Wall of Revealing Light, declaring 7000 or whatever your life points are at that moment, activate Last Turn, then special summon Jowgen the Spiritualist was the FTK most I knew ran in locals way back during the day like I think post Labyrinth of Nightmare.