The History of Roguelike Deckbuilders - From Playing Cards to CCGs and Beyond - Extra Credits
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- čas přidán 23. 07. 2024
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We cover the evolution and history of cards as games! From playing cards, to trading cards, to Magic: The Gathering, to Hearthstone, and beyond...
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♪ Intro Music: "Penguin Cap" by CarboHydroM
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♪ Outro Music:
“Pilot the Yggdrasil”
By Jared Hudson
ocremix.org/remix/OCR00747 - Hry
Makes Cowboy Beebop reference
Doesn't put in "See you later, Space Cowboy" at the end
8:45 kinda does spikes gun point
@@conormurphy4328 kind of a stretch, he's pointing to his double unfortunately
nor did he get everybody and the stuff together!... shame
At E3 I saw a game called Griftlands, which is deckbuilding combat/social encounter game. Applying this to non-combat situations seems like a pretty cool step forward, and a neat way of doing dialogue. Imagine a noir detective game where your card "mana" is your patience and eventually you default to intimidation/violence which usually doesn't work nearly as well.
Wait, like the world of Sunless Sea? I remember EC talking about how 'social interactions' are a part of that game, so a little like that?
Sounds neat
I can already imagine multiple characters with different play/investigation styles...
And the combinatorial explosion of having two detectives work together, like Monster Train's alliance system
How was "let's jam" not used for a game jam episode?
00:54 duelists of the roses
I absolutely love "slay the spire" and I waited the entire video just to hear it being mentioned
Saaaaame
"Didst thou conjure a multitude of monsters in a single turn?"
"Aye, what of it?"
"Such an action is forbidden by yon rules!"
"Thrice-damn the rules, I possess great wealth!"
Thoust are a second grade player with thine third grade deck!
-eth!
2:15 "...and selling packs of them."
And that is how Lootboxes were invented!
AKA Lootcrate
The angels wept.
@Cross Van Dust Nobody wanted them. Except the people that bought them.
Did you have to remind 90's kids that Gogo's and Magic inadvertently created this hell.
And somehow, this "gambling" marketed to children didn't result in all of the social ills y'all love attributing to something even less like real gambling. Physical cards you can theoretically cash out on for real currency if you find someone who wants them enough. Not so much in game skins.
If anyone is confused by the terms
Roguelike = A game genre consisting of dungeon crawling, where these dungeons or paths are being procedurally generated, aka randomly
Deckbuilders = A card game genre where building your deck is part of the gameplay
Roguelike is more than just that, they also let you have only one shot at any particular dungeon (no loading when you die) and your character increases in power primarily through acquiring more powerful loot.
It’s also a turn based kind of game, like dnd married video games and had the beautiful baby: rogue likes
Agilemind Unlocking more stuff to get more powerful over is more roguelite, whilst unlocking the stuff but still having the same experience as before but with new stuff is more like a roguelike
@@xekon14 It's the opposite. Roguelites are when there isn't anything to unlock that will affect the playthrough, while roguelites are the opposite
@@miamackenzie9946 Roguelikes does not have to be turn based, take The Binding of Isaac as example.
In the beginning, there were dice.
- And perfection was achieved early!
Praise RNGsus
How about Hand of Fate? I believe it's older than Slay the Spire, and already has deck-building and rogue-like elements.
I wouldn't say its actual gameplay is focused on cards. They more provide the backdrop and theme rather than the actual combat or minigames.
@@thundersheild926 gameplay doesn't have to be focused on playing with actual cards to be a deck building game. "cards" are just a set of mechanics for digital game designers. Hand of Fate is a rogue like deck builder if I've ever seen one.
@@julianroth326 even Dicey Dungeons is classified as roguelike deckbuilder, due to the way pre-rolled/input randomness dice + equipments you place them into somewhat work like cards
We cover the evolution and history of cards as games, especially their rapidly increasing complexity in the last 30 years from Magic: The Gathering, to Hearthstone, and more!
What card games have you recently played and enjoyed that we didn't mention in this video?
More history plz
Nice yugioh reference extra credits.
Extra Credits YUGIOH
ITS FAAAST
The card game Fairy Tale is a great distillation of drafting itself as a game. 7 Cities is a pretty good one, too.
As a lapsed Magic player who played Shandalar and MTGO heavily and is now heavy into hobby board games, this is excellent.
*"Okay 3..2..1 let's Jam"*
I was expecting the Sax drop lol
Anyone who got the reference did as well.
Been constantly humming Tank throughout the episode. Had to rewatch this, because I forgot to listen to the actual video at times. :-D
I think you mean: Richard Garfield, PhD.
A maths student? He invited magic when he was a student didn't he
Ashra He was a professor I believe
One of the other factors on Magic coming about was at the time WotC was a RPG publisher with some financial issues. Slay the Spire was predated by Hand of Fate by a year and a half.
Is that a comstar insignia
And by Dream Quest even earlier
Faeria is a criminally underrated game. They are an extremely customer friendly company.
this
Sad to see no mention of Hand of Fate. It blew my mind back in 2015 as a dungeon crawler rogue-like deckbuilder. Shuffling fights into the next dungeon to reap their rewards or even adding needlessly risky events to unlock the next card in its storyline changed how I thought about these building games, and Slay the Spire was still yet to come.
There is a lack of megaman battlenetwork. Breaks my heart a little.
I know, right? One of the only deck-based games I could get into.
One Step From Eden really shouldn't be the only successor
Surprised that Hand of Fate was not mentioned. thats more of a literal rougelike cardgame. its mechanics dont lend itself to deck building, but its still an interesting take on cards and dungeoning.
I like the bebop reference, and the yugioh reference and all other references.
I didn't get a single one and didn't like any of them
@@Obzerver :/
Yugioh reference? Where?
Sam Ajami 00:56 seconds
Surprised no one mentioned Yamcha's 'appearance.'
Renaissance Yugi and Kaiba at 0:56 was a combination I never knew I needed.
...yeah Duelists of the Roses, on PS2, had some kindof interesting rules, playing on a large grid, but could get tedious after a while.
This is totally up my alley. I volunteered to help out with a new card game last year and now I've just been offered a stipend for future work.
7:16
Yes Gabe we know you wanted the money but artifact was a failure
Gabe needs to learn what number comes after 2, not how to convert BR and gambling to games Valve has already created
0:55
"Hold, knave! Hast thou performed a plethora of actions within a single turn's space?"
"Mayhaps this is so, sirrah, though I fail to perceive thy concern."
"The concern is that these actions are contravening this pastime's regulations!"
"The regulations shall have a multitude of carnal acts performed upon them, for lo, I am flush with wealth and currency!"
Or he is just paying Storm
It is actually weird, I was working on a rogue-like deck builder in early 2013 but when I did physical playtests it was slow and clunky. Then Hearthstone was released and I saw how fast a computer could calculate stuff and make it play fun. Never went back to it though since I was busy with other projects. Then I see "Slay the Spire" which was SUPER similar to what I was doing (much more streamlined though). * sigh * I always just imagine what could have been. Might revisit my old prototype someday as I haven't seen anything exactly the same (it added cards based on equipment, a la Card Hunter, but also based on your species + class + skill tree + other things). Will probably take a look at it again once I finish my thesis work on a digital hybrid board game adaptation of Auto Chess. =)
'A whole new world - for cards'
Did anyone feel anything?
Im afraid my eyes rolled so hard I caused an earthquake somewhere
Garrett Thacher I kinda cringed and laughed at the same time lol
@@leaf7392 so did my bones
Garrett Thacher don't think I've ever cringed because something was cringy but hilarious at the same time lol
Did the rolling happen before or after you don't dare closing them?
Did the rolling happen before or after you don't dare close your eyes?
Whaaaat!? Card games weren't invented in ancient Egypt!? I call foul on that!
They're just wishing they could sit in the pharoah's throne
Im glad to see this channel grow and become more populor over the years and even with the transition of new wrtiters and host still keep its charming style of art and learning
My favorite deck building game is Evolution. Ive never seen anything so masterfully envelop how evolution works, along with a genuinely competitive and fun game.
the really interesting aspect of cards is that they can contain a limited amount of rules or mechanic, making them similar to menu options in a JRPG, but with the randomness and collectible aspect, can make it al much more juicy than menu driven turn based combat. Even just the action of shuffling and drawing the cards is kinetically much more satisfying than anything done through traditional menus.
Yay! Shandalar got mentioned. Loved that game, even though, I barely understood the rules of magic back then.
You should go full Bebop more often that show is amazing. Also love the reference to Duelist of the Roses.
So delightfully extra! XD Keep up the great work!
6:13 They killed Yamcha!
You mean Yamcha got Yamcha'd!
Everyone: E3! So many *electronic* games!
EC: ...Cards?
I've been back and forth on EC since the host change, but this episode is classic EC through and through. Well done team! This is great. Definitely going to check out Roguebook
I was thinking the complete opposite. This episode is stylistically very different from classic EC and the storytelling format seems to have changed. The whole Zoey bit is the most obvious difference, and Matt is way less mellow than Dan Prime was and still is
Hand of fate was my introduction
7:45 minutes waiting for you to say the words and then I'm like HELL YEAH, SLAY THE SPIRE!
I really enjoy these “history of...” for game genres, like with what you have done here and with your earlier videos on Western and Japanese RPGs.
Nitpick: The video uses XCOM logo, when it should use the Microprose-published original X-COM logo
I really love y'all drawing memes in your art style. From the double Spider-Man to dead Yamcha.
it feels pretty cool that i've actually played several of these card games and experienced the development this video talks about first hand :)
I love hearing about the success of slay the spire because the creators inspire me as an amateur game creator to learn and innovate in a genre that would seem to difficult to tackle as an indie game company. Creating a space for their game to exist, to separate itself from hearthstone, and to have started just between friends is what a lot of creators only dream of.
I would love more history-style episodes like this
Extra History has taken over all parts of Extra Credits! It's all good though, this was a fun video.
Two other interesting examples:
- Megaman battle network
- One step from eden (especially)
You build a deck as you play.
OSFE in particular is a roguelike with permadeath.
Both introduce the deckbuilding concept digitally with action elements.
The Microprose Magic game is SO GOOD! Played it as a kid, and to this day, I've never played a game quite like it. So many combos, so many ways to build your deck.
I'd buy a Steam or GoG release in a heartbeat.
I was hoping Chaotic would be more of historical note but I guess its still that beloved under-rated card game.
I just commented about that too. XD
Did you hear that the franchise is coming back?
@@ShadowEclipexYeah, I did. I'm more excited then I ever thought I would be!
Anyone remember BattleForge? It was an RTS/CCG hybrid: where rather than building a base, you had a hand of cards you used to summon units onto the battlefield which you then controlled in a traditional starcraft-esque RTS. I got a free copy with a PC I bought a while back, I never played much of it, but it seemed like a neat idea.
0:20
and this , is why I started the video 20 minutes ago and now have "learned" a bunch of card tricks, after looking up a spring flourish.
and then 10 more minutes later listening to the songs from cowboy bepop-again.
I knew it! Yu-Gi-Oh! has been around since the Renaissance!
Yu-Gi-Oh! has been around since _Ancient Egypt._ Didn't you watch the documentary of the same name?
@@Anastas1786 lol
wow this was expansive and fun to hear about this has gotten me interested in multiple things I might want to try as an old time magic the gathering player
fun to see I played all the mentioned released games out there except dream quest in this story :)
i think Idea & Form deserves some credit for recently marrying the deckbuilder to traditional jrpg-esque combat in an incredibly elegant way; (see Steamworld Quest: Hand of Gilgamech)
what would you say is the main difference with Slay the spyre, which could also be said to have a blend of those two elements?
This episode of Extra History was nice
Pox Nora was pretty cool. I quite liked playing it many years back. Thanks for reminding me, got a small hit of Nostalgia :)
Why did you not touch on to the REAL deckbuilders like Star Realm, or Ascension? They are Card base, and also got a computer adaptation, and they are focused on either PvP rather than PvE like slay the spire.
It is a different take on it because both of you have access to the same starting point and information.
But the most important difference to Slay the Spire is that for slay the spire you get new cards and build your deck mostly in between enemies.
To be fair, Dominion is the real original tabletop deck builder from which Ascension and Star Realms originated, although admittedly it's had many hiccups with its electronic implementation.
I love cards in games ever sense growing up with yugioh and playing games like Battle Network back in the day that used cards to determine player action. I’m glad that card based video games are seeing a resurgence.
Ok this was REALLY cool. Seeing a timeline that I actually was a part of was awesome! I loved that when you got to magic I was like ya I play that its pretty cool that I play such an influential game and I never really thought about it or knew just how big of a deal it was. But when we got to slay the spire and I was like I played that early access. I had no idea that it was the first deck building rogue-like it was just a fun game I played a ton of. Please do more "how we got here" pieces. Another idea might be crypt of the necro dancer (rogue-like rhythm rpg) or Hand of Fate which is the culmination of too many game types for me to list. It's cool to see the pedigree of influences on a game. also I definitely plan on checking out that kick starter.
"Thats a Spring Flourish not a shuffle"😹
Wow, an actual acknowledgement that Robo Rally existed! I'm impressed!
Ask any long-time tabletop player what their favorite games are, and ne of the top choices (usually #1 or #2) is going to be an older game they have a nostalgic connection to despite knowing all of its flaws just as well as they know its strengths. For me, Robo Rally is that game. Dominion may be the game I play the most and catch myself thinking about when idle, but Twonky on the others have a special place for me.
Bring back Shandalar! Microprose! Something!
"Don't you dare close your eyes" LOLOL fuck your hilarious and well-executed jokes
I recently started playing Dream Quest, and I can see how it took off. It's the best free game I've ever played.
7:44 slay the spire is really great.
I agree though that there is an oppertunity to build on the model; to do a Half-Life/ Halo to Slay the Spire's Doom, as there is just so much rooom for more complexity.
great vid.
I remember Shandalar so fondly...still fun to this day.
“Wow, we went full _Bebop_ there for a second.”
_Always_ go full _Bebop_ my dude.
I think this could be an interesting idea for a new series (granted on top of dozens of other series). But something exploring the history of genres. Could be a brief miniseries, but I'd be all behind it
Roguelike from Abrakam is a very cool game, also Faeria (yo can see ther what we can move)
6:22 This is the best picture ever made in the history of mankind
Extra Credits! Awesome video I would love to see a episode about tabletop wargaming or a historical look at Games Workshop / Warhammer 40k.
Theres this... CCG adjacent game that I always come back to, at least once a year. Card Hunter, a parody of DND, it's a free game where you assemble a team of 3 characters, and fight on DND like game boards, but using a drawn hand of cards to do so. But it's one step removed from CCGs as your not collecting cards, but equipment that gives each character different cards. I think it's a neat little game worth checking out, given that it's free to play.
And I was in the Essen Game fair as illustrator in artist alley. I remember the game there.
One of my favourite deck building games was baton kaitos : eternal wings and the lost ocean. Long name aside. It mixed rpg elements and card game battle mechanics in a way that I haven't seen to much. It was a fun rpg even if your could easily fucked over if you didn't explore enough to find the hidden cards on each of the floating islands.
Another early 2004 card battle videogame was Phantasy Star Episode 3: C.A.R.D. Revolution, card systems in games were really popular around that time.
Remember, TCG's are physical lootboxes that came out long before we coined the term "lootbox."
Fascinating. I never thought of roguelikes meets Card Games.
(I don't play card games. I really should play..)
Woohoo Gloomhaven shout out! If anyone here is even moderately interested in it I highly suggest watching a review or a scenario 1 play through. It has a staggering amount of content and the strategy dungeon crawl mechanics are done excellently.
This feels amazing, because I'm friends with one of the artists who worked on Slay the Spire. :)
*Fist bump*
Magic Arena:"Am I a Joke to You?"
I don't play games but I like to watch this show!
How have I never heard of Faeria, Slay the Spire, or Roguebook!?
Rougelike Deckbuilders are among my favorite genres!
I sometimes sign into Hearthstone just to play the rogue single player games.
Oh man. I absolutely loved robot rally
Nice yugioh reference extra credits.
I've got high hopes for Thea:2 The shattering as a single player game with deckbuilding elements but which has like some actual story/game in there too..
After Artifact from Dota kinda flopped steam picked up the core design to AutoChess and is currently in alpha. Its not likely a deck game, but you build hands of randomly assigned cards that are placed in turns then during battle phase fulfill its combat mechanic automatically. Each 'monster' as race and class bonuses that are amplified by the # of same race or class. Items can drop that are then equipped to monsters. All via the lense of Dota2. This is the first card-type game I have gotten excited about since I was in elementary school..
Coming back to this...I got 4 words... One Step From Eden
i don't remember the name but there was a kickstarter game that is a roguelike cardgame mixed with megaman battle network battle system and the ability to make choices like killing or sparing bosses.
Also, checkout steamworld quest if you like cardgame systems in an rpg.
It's called One Step From Eden
I loved Pox Nora so much! I'm so sad it never got that big
I found it strange how much of this i knew offhand and how many titles i was listing right before they were stated. I guess my brain cells still work. ^.^
Anyone know the game Betrayal at House on the Hill?
3-6 players, 13+ age to play, and each situation is unique. There are 12 character choices, many different items to acquire, omens that you can collect, and there are 50 different haunts (where one of the players turns traitor and tried to kill everyone)
Omg is that Renaissance Yugi and Kaiba? XD
Now for a whole episode on Slay the Spire please xD had hoped that was what you guys were building up to but wasn't entirely sure, but glad I wasn't wrong.
Cool,especially since I want to play the LotR version
Wonder how the game of Mao might factor into this genre's future. Could be a neat development if someone decides to work with that level of individual player-created chaos.
Magic is the love of my life, my greatest passion.
I'd love an episode that looks at how to design a good CCG game.
I've not played Slay the Spire but Night of the Full Moon is a LOT of fun
Love shandalar, still play it!
SHANDALAAAAAAAAR!!!! Me and Arzakon go way back. WotC needs to revisit the idea of an MtG RPG. I'd totally be ready for one.
Inscryption did a good job subverting my associations with the genre. I kinda want more of that.