The Controversial Life Of Lewis Carroll | The Real Story Of Alice In Wonderland
Vložit
- čas přidán 20. 03. 2020
- With contributions from the likes of thespian Richard E. Grant, social commentator Will Self and author Philip Pullman, at once adoring and provocative this documentary casts a conflicted eye over the creation of Wonderland. Pouring through historical evidence and stories passed down through generations, hear the tale of Carroll’s first encounter with the three Liddell girls and the first telling of Alice’s tumble down the rabbit hole one summer’s afternoon in a boat upon the River Thames.
It's like Netflix for history... Sign up to History Hit, the world's best history documentary service and get 50% off using the code 'AbsoluteHistory' bit.ly/3vn5cSH
This channel is part of the History Hit Network. Any queries please contact: owned-enquiries@littledotstudios.com
📺 It's like Netflix for history! Sign up to History Hit, the world's best history documentary service, and enjoy a discount on us: bit.ly/3vdL45g
What was the value of showing this audience child porn& then going to historians to prove you just showed up child porn? ZERO value. @AbsoluteHistory a description of the photo would be enough. Poor taste. Disrespectful to the abused child & this audience.
I don't think that Louis Carrol was a pedophile I do think that he had intrusive thoughts like I do but just because you have intrusive thoughts doesn't mean that they are what you are
@@Allison8k It ain't porn, grab a dictionary, try reading it. ZERO value? Nope, got a reaction out of YOU. Do you think the BBC producers are stupid?
14:40 good times 43:50 so good
@@Allison8k fucking reviant
Unpopular opinion: Alice in Wonderland made me feel afraid, alone and insecure as a small child. I don't remember the fantasy being fun, even if Alice was brave. The idea of being alone in that chaotic world where rules don't mean anything and safety is an illusion was never appealing to me.
Edit: The amateur CZcams psychologists this thread has spawned are hilarious. Thanks for the comments guys, even the idiotic ones are good for a laugh. 😂
Yes, it's a trippy story.
In my household growing up we called that Tuesday .
I remember watching the movie as a kid and thinking "I'd rather watch dbz" and stopped paying attention. The only thing that left an impression was how creepy the costumes looked lol
I never liked this history I always found them creepy and not natural in my young mind. 🤔🤔
Same, the fact that the version with Johnny Depp is more accurate to the original and is really dark and creepy, shows how dark the whole story is. It seems like a story a pedophile would tell his victims to groom them.
""It is a problem when someone writes a great book and they're not a great person." so true.
Such a good quote! I feel like that guy was the only one who pulled his head out of the sand and didn't want to pretend a dark side was impossible
- or is one of the greatest pop musicians of the 20th century
*cough cough* JK Rowling *cough cough*
No it isn't. If someone writes a great book then they are a great person. Greatness is a transitive property.
@@ryder389 I know what you mean but honestly the only bad thing about J.K. is her being a hypocrite. Also pretending that she hadn't racialised Hermione was despicable. "I didn't say she was white" not only did you say that but you described it positively when doing so, also both her parents are dentists that live in Australia, I mean, she white.
"There's no evidence."
Also: "Pages were cut out of his journals. Letters were burned. He collected children. He was fascinated with the innocence of children."
and don't forget that he openly said that the most supremely beautiful form of the human body was the one of a prepubescent girl... the missing pages from the journal are definitely too suspicious to not be related to his "fascinations" imo.. it's very telling
Michael jackson of his era
He made child pron. especially considering how pron of adults was during that time. I’d say there’s no way we can say we’re just imposing a modern view on a past time period. It’s clearly evident he was.
@@Maryxxiii i absolutely agree that it's not just imposing a modern view on a past time period... because all the people that are defending him and saying that the age of consent back then was 10-13 so that makes it somehow ok, forget that this man was obsessed with little girls faaar before they was even near 10 or 13..
@@edelleaa Right and you could see that he’d done something to her, the way she was looking in the photos was a deep sadness or betrayal. It’s like she refused to look in the camera or towards her “attacker” when her sisters were around. Which I could only imagine she was likely feeling safer at those times vs the time when she was alone with him for the nude photo shoot.
33:40 the women going on about how Alices mother was a “dreadful snob”, no maybe she was just a good mum and didn’t want her CHILD daughter being sexually groomed by this ADULT man. the way they worded this is very concerning. why are they making out like Alice’s mother is the bad person😳
and the woman who said it is from the family, yuck
I don't really know what
Exactly! The mother obviously knew that something was wrong with that man and his relationship with her child.
Because the executive producer is probably a pedo and that woman who is related to Alice probably didn't want shame in the family so they made excuses LIKE THE SISTER WHO WROTE Alice "so I told a lie for a documentary on Carroll, just go with it if they call to talk to you"
Not all moms are the best moms. From many crime stories or snob stories somewhere there happens to b a mom who didn't brought up her kid she/he deserved to be.
Alice's mother broke off an inappropriate relationship between a grown man and her little girl; she wanted the best marriage prospects for her daughters in a world where a woman's marriage prospects is everything; oh but she was - and I quote - "a dreadful snob". It's a protective mother who is the problem, not a grown man taking sexually suggestive photos of a little girl.
Exactly, you would think that being the great granddaughter of Alice, she would want to side with Alice’s mother to protect the innocence of her child and improve her marriage prospect. Instead, the great granddaughter prefers to romanticize the inappropriate relationship between a young child and a grown man.
TinyPuff It’s an incomplete interview. We don’t know what all was asked, and we don’t know what all else the granddaughter might know to make her think that. And, who knows if her comments have been spliced to look particularly salacious.
Just saying. Documentaries are fun, but usually worth a grain of salt.
@@mariecarie1 real documentaries are exactly the opposite - they seek to reveal the truth without any bias.
@@melizmatea no *true* Scotsman wears such a pattern on their kilt!
The fashion at the time was to take pictures of children showing them naked as a sign of their innocence. There was likely no inappropriate relationship between Alice and Dodson. If you look at the photography of that age you see lots of these types of pictures.
I think we are looking at them with today’s cynical eyes. Not a bad thing and it’s so important for the protection of children but a different age has different customs.
the way some of these experts talk about some of Carol's pedophilic interest in Alice is disgusting...they're romanticising the hell outta this.
I agree, I believe he was a ped
On February 27, 1893, he wrote to an illustrator by the name of E. Gertrude Thomson: "...I confess that I do not admire naked boys in pictures. They always seem to me to need clothes; whereas one hardly sees why the lovely forms of girls should ever be covered up!"
Suggesting that girls should be naked all the time goes way beyond wanting to take an occasional photo of them for artistic purposes.
@@snarkaholic gosh
It's amazing how people love to dig up some dirt and the dirt becomes the main character of the story.
@@lil_orbits2658 YES certainly
“Hey little Alice girl, when we are alone, a lot of fun, magical, and fantastic things will be experienced… -with me, an adult male.” If you’ve had a loving childhood, the story sounds fantastically magical. If you’ve been hurt by adults as a child, seems like it would scare little kids.
I had a loving childhood, but I thought Alice in Wonderland was weird. I liked Alice, but the world of wonderland really unnerved me.
43:50 props to this guy (Will Self) for telling it like it is.
I don't know, the story of Alice in wonderland has always felt like a nightmare to me. Since i was a child I hated that she was all alone in an unfamiliar world where nobody took care of her
same here I always felt creeped out by the story in general
It was horrible book.
Unfortunately you have just described how the majority of today's children live their lives !
@@Valcour Maybe you should actually read it instead of letting others decide for you.
I agree, it always had a very chaotic vibe. Nothing safe or comforting about it to me.
"We have thousands and thousands and thousands of records from girls whom he befriended who made it clear that there was a kind of *ritual* to their friendship...it involved *kissing them* chastely" Oh, you mean grooming? Because that sounds an awful lot like grooming.
the Jeffery Epstein of the literary world
@@CowGirlKat8691 you do understand that in the mid 19th century the age of consent was 10-13 across the West and that girls of such age got MARRIED to adults regularly even through the 20th century right? nobody is saying lewis carroll was morally right for what he did, but it takes a huge dipshit to automatically disregard every historical person because they don't stand up to modern sensibilities
@@itstoogooditswaytoogood3211 if you did some research you’d find that in European history the average age of marriage for women was not that young.
Young marriages typically happened among the richest and poorest. And the “consent” of the girls getting married in that situation wasn’t considered.
King Henry VIIIs grandmother was 13 when she gave birth and that was considered very young, even then.
You’re missing the point. Just because in Victorian times, females were regarded as simply breeders doesn’t make it right that grown men married children. That’s why we have always against. It was NEVER right!
@@wandakowalski7063 Sure, but to hold people of a different time to your modern standard is just wrong. The Industrial Revolution changed everything for just about everyone.
It’s almost as if the rabbit is Lewis carol. They both take Alice on her adventure. The posture of the rabbit is the same as Carol
I also saw Carroll in the rabbit on first glance. I think you have a good eye.
I immediately thought the rabbit represented Carroll when they showed his own illustrations of the rabbit. The clothing, the OCD like tendencies both fit.
I'm sure you are right. I thought that too. The girls were groomed and taken into private areas. They probably were given pills, tinctures or powders back in the day. Anytime I hear someone say, " Everyone took nude photos of girls back then" is making excuses for bad things happening to justify how much they admire someone. Just accept there can be bad people doing good things, and there are good people doing bad things. Example Jarrod founder of Adventures With Purpose/ Michael Jackson/Most CEOs, Planned Parenthood and the Meat industry. But yah, I totally think Lewis Carrol was a pedophile...someone had to tell her to take her clothes of for the camera.
The fact that they mentioned multiple times 'he collected children, picked them up... Carries games and toys in his pockets... Little girls he was friends with had talked about 'rituals' where he kissed them...' These gross photos where these girls are looking the photographer with such a 'f you' expression...
This host literally expressing ' I'm such a fan of this guy that I don't want to consider any dark implications' and so many of these people interviewed talking about how there's no evidence when they have listed all of this evidence.... The choice production made to be just vague and dismissive enough to have the audience walk away thinking this man was just participating in the 'normal' behaviors of his time is troubling .
(My theory relating to the 'split' and the pages cut from the diary... Carroll was absolutely trying to groom this girl and this original book he made in her name made him believe they had grown close enough for him to eventually cross some sort of physical line with her. Maybe she didn't outright tell her mother or sisters but someone was able to see how inappropriate this relationship was , or she purposefully tried to distance herself. Victorian's trying to save face and just say 'the mom was a snob and wanted her girls to marry better' is such an easy scapegoat... ) It's also kinda wild how they told the audience this photo was of a nude teen girl and proceeded to focus so much on the dating of the photo than to do any other sort of investigating into anything... And then at the end the host was like well ... They gave us all these facts and said it's most likely her but I GUESS WE JUST HAVE NO IDEA HUH?
The fact that they seem to be justifying caroll's nude photos of alice just doesnt sit right with me...
@Dana Davison yikes.... a lot of words...and I read them all
they arent justifying. in terms of those days, Lorena was at the age of consent. it was a very different time.
I don't think it's a justification more an explanation of the social norms of the time.
And I don't really see a problem with that tbh
This, the BBC, is the organisation that harboured the serial paedophile, Jimmy Savile, in plain sight for decades.
It's not justifying. It's called investigating.
An adult man defending a suspected pedophile :
"He thought the human body was a supremely beautiful thing and THE MOST supremely beautiful form of human body was the female body BEFORE puberty".
Really?? Would you like to perhaps reconsider what you have just said...??
I'm ok with people thinking that little girls are cute but claiming that there is nothing wrong with thinking they are the ultimate form of beauty?? Well... I have some questions for you buddy.
You nailed it. Raised my red flags, too!
Yes! What a freak.
Lmao he's not saying he finds kids sexy he's trying to emphasise why Lewis perhaps did what he did.
Obviously it's disgusting by modern standards and if that happens today then absolutely he would be done for child porn and rightly so.
@@lucyhogarth3988 ohh Lucy, I'm not saying that he finds kids sexy. I'm saying that his defense of the author really falls short 😂
What do you think happened in the HOLY BIBLE?? ALICE IN WONDERLAND IS BASED ON A TRUE STORY... THE NAME ALICE MEANS ROYALTY... WONDERLAND MEANS NOT HOME... YOU KNOW "ANGEL'S WHO KEPT NOT THEIR FIRST ESTATE"..
The host is absolutely delusional you went to literal forensic experts and they both told you that the photo is most likely lorina and then two seconds later you proceeded to tell us that we cant say for certain that the photograph was of lorina, excuse me what?? it is disgusting for you to try and justify carrolls actions when he was clearly a creep and i understand you wanting to seperate the art from the artist but supporting him as a person is just gross and romanticizing their relationship is so morally wrong
YAFOS. Dodson, NOT "Carroll." The photo is most likely NOT Lorina. You went down the Rabbit Hole blinded by prejudice.
The documentary only showed the scientific evidence leading to one conclusion. No mention of lots of important details. The first expert gave an opinion of the technical aspects of the PHOTOGRAPH and not the CONTENT. That first expert was way out of line in saying Dodgson's name.
And hello Mr. Second Expert, ever hear of AI Facial Recognition? Gee, guess what Facial Recognition would say?? Never mentioned, guess why?
The photographs are different but close enough for shoddy investigative journalism and conspiracy theory. It is not Lorina Charlotte Liddell. Read up on "epicanthal" WRT eyes.
Look at the Dodgson 1860 photo of Lorina (not used in the documentary) compared to this claimed Lorina full-frontal ALSO DATED 1860. Where are the "burns" or "pock-marks" on Lorina's face in the Dodgson photograph? MISSING.
Read up on the Era's social environment and of the wet collodion process. Hells Bells, the photograph is dated 1860, BEFORE Dodgson even had a studio at Christ Church. Where the hell was this photograph supposed to be taken? In the Deanery Garden? This ain't in the era of the cellphone where we snap our brains out and post all over the globe in an instant. Read up on the the physical locations of Dodgson's Christ Church and Badcock Yard studios. WAY TOO INVOLVED to arrange this photograph. It would be PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for Dodgson to take such a photograph of Lorina back in this time / era.
Take a look of the Dodgson 1870 photograph of Lorina, now 21, this is the look of a woman whom Dodgson, if we believe the full-frontal is genuine, essentially stripped her naked and cold and afraid and took hours to photograph her (essentially Victoria Era rape) and now stares back at her rapist? This is the face of the woman whom Dodgson corresponded with the most, all his life of any of the sisters??
Lorina and Alice were as close as any sisters could be, and Alice names a son "Caryl" The rapist of her sister? Yah, right.
This is a scary video because most viewers see it with eyes wide shut right down the internet of CRAP Rabbit Hole.
Hmmm- as a very young child I was mesmerized by The Lion The witch and the wardrobe. There was a man in our church- to this day I don’t know his name- but he reminded me of Tumnus.
I was probably 11 or 12, and that became my nickname for him. He seemed to delight in this association- and invited me to have dinner with him. My parents immediately shot this down- knowing such a thing should never happen between a 30+ man, and a 12 year old girl. To this day I still remember him. Thankfully all the memories are good.
As a child I found the story odd more than exciting or fun. This was my reaction to scary movies. How similar his story reminds me of Michael Jackson and the controversy therin.
@@madelinecoren483 NOT even close to MJ story.
@@madelinecoren483 except it already has been disproven that mj was fucking innocent
Any adult man or person taking naked photos of pre-teen children should never be allowed to be in the same room or anywhere near children or pre-teens. The whole situation reaks of grooming for molesting. It is not about innocence but about abuse of power skewed behavior. Adult actions are for consenting adults only. Those photos are wrong. Even from an excellent writer.
Agreed. The era is irrelevant.
@LONtoLAX i insist on defending history, that is all.. you cannot take offense over something that was considered acceptable 150 years ago
@@Keef_DGAF yes you can.
Exactly!
People would take picture of children to PORTRAY the innocent, purity, the childhood, the brighter days that we people experience. The reason behind these kind of pictures was for art, and photography to show beautiful, and considering the time period its fine nothing wrong with it.
"Perhaps we'll never find out the real truth about Carroll..." excuse me, but i think you have enough proof that this guy was a creep
bruh when they said 12 is the legal age of consent, they all guilty. life expectancy was about 40 though so...
@@didjuforget doesn’t make it right.
BINGO!
EXACTLY! ugh I am so beyond disturbed by him now
@@cheeseguzzler6269 "age of consenting" is actually a really new concept lol. Not saying it's right but you have to consider the time period
*43:45** shout out to this historian who didn't go around in circles🤯it is so strange to watch a professional video where historians refuse to paint a talented person as a child creep... like he legit was the only one who just called it what it was and everyone else was like- no it was normal at the time 👀and then what really got me is how the age of consent was 12 👀 how it looked worse that he would kiss the girl of consent ,but not an underage one😒 like what the heck... it's so silly. I don't understand the bizarre circles the other historians keep going around in. It's so annoying... like you can say it's a good book but he was a creep and keep it moving*
unfortunately the same can be said about hollywood everyone who works there is a perv its called hollywood because real magic wands are made of the wood from the holly tree and they cast spells over childrens minds disneyland is the biggest child abduction centre in the world yes Walt and all his high up freinds are all paedos hell Michael Jackson even had his own version wake up people paedophillia is massive and growing by the day and not just abuse but sacrifice as well like the sacrificial alter at camp david (called Moloch another name for ba'al or satan) were all the politicians and big wigs go this problem is massive but for the most part ordinairy commen men arn't involved its a pursuit of the Elite.
he's called Will Self and he's a pretty sound guy despite being a heroin addict like someone here said the mental gymnastics the others performed to avoid the 'word' is pretty astonishing
@@markhall42 I don't understand either of you two, Will Self is the one who calls Dodgson a pedophile.
I think the Mum made the right move getting him away from her kids. Sometimes kids don't know what's best for them.
The little girl who raised her hand to say "its good" is my favorite thing I've seen this month 😂👌
A real mood
"Explain the reasoning behind your answer"
*"It's good"*
SAME😭😂
And the fact that she made it into the video
YuH
He collected children and had a studio dedicated to taking photos of them with or without clothing. Disgusting how they romanticize this documentary.
Really?😳😔
Yes elite pedophilia knows no bounds.
it has nothing to do with romanticizing, how ignorant you are is quite obvious. quite simply speaking it wasnt deigned immoral at the time. You and others like you keep on trying to emphasize current sociological ethics on a timeframe that is far from current. you CANNOT judge another era with current views and be expected to be taken seriously
EraZarE Alice is like 7... messing with a 7 year old is WRONG ANY ERA!!!
My thoughts exactly. "He was in love with her" So...a pedophile.
Just because it was acceptable behavior at some point in time… it NEVER makes it OK. thank you @43:16. The only guy with the nerve to say it like it is. I find it astonishing our need to talk around issues that no one can understand, but choose, out of their own discomfort having to wrestle with the realization of a beloved hero in our past, who has likely had inappropriate relationships with children, regardless of the degree. Bill Cosby is a beloved hero from now, and we still choose deflection and make every attempt to hang innocence on characters that we have fallen head over heals in love with, only to realize they are completely flawed. In a pretty terrible way.
In the end, the tragedy is we would rather continue pushing the rumor propaganda, instead of finding ways of speaking openly and honestly about a man whom gave us a gift that will last the ages but find no courage to chat openly and honestly about such behavior which likely had an equally long lasting impact on “the children he collected “.
Will Self. Will Self, brilliant insightful author akin to human emotion and humanity. Intercourse Bill Cosby. Dodgson never harmed anyone ever.
The BBC editing lead you right down the rabbit hole with this stuff. Will Self and Edward Wakeling are answering TWO different questions. One pedophile, the other molestation. Wakeling came back later in the press and said his comments, that appear to defend a pedophile, were "cut-in out of context." Will Self --> what's in Dodgson's head? Ed Wakeling-->what did he do?
Have you read the books?
@@mrunning10 I haven’t but I understand they are magical. My mum told me she loved reading them. I have However been touched and interacted with by older men inappropriately and lived within an environment with the mentality of “no real harm was done”, by my mother and father. My life as a result definitely not been end of days, but to say I’ve had almost no healthy relationships with the opposite sex and I still struggle constantly trusting what I even know to be healthy, is an understatement. It’s been challenging. But you know, I’m just saying talking about it for what it is, regardless of one’s profession no matter how good they are. At least this method would give such behavior the stark light would shed on it so the people affect by it deserve to see it.
Wow!
I was told (when I was in school) that Alice was dying of leukemia. So her father told her stories to cheer her up. In turn he wrote himself into the story as the caterpillar smoking opium on the mushroom. I was told that the father was having a difficult time of his daughter having leukemia. So to deal with how he was feeling he himself was smoking opium.
Somebody definitely had the wrong information.
i actually remember learning something similar thats really weird
heard similar. mandela effect
This lady just REALLY doesn’t want Carroll to be labeled as a pedophile because she loves the book
Why not get someone a little less biased to do this kind of investigation
Ikr, she's the reason so many people probably didn't come forward, like, she's basically trying to say that what he did was okay
Yes very odd...
I got the same idea about him and not even halfway through the video.
@@JordDraugr you do realise how long ago he wrote the book and all this took place, right? this lady wasn't even a twinkle in her daddy's eye. So to say, SHE was the reason....yeh nah. Life was very different 150 years ago, did you even see where they said consent was 12 years old?
For real.
I think the missing diary pages and missing photos are either Lewis trying to hide something or someone later on trying to protect his image.
They said his nieces who inherited his works cut them out. They were obviously trying to protect his reputation.
Exactly that. Thank you.
Or a shopping list
I'm sure especially after she drank that strange bottle that says drink me to put her to sleep and numb....#PedophileDisney
By the time of his death, Carroll's Alice had become an iconic character. His family did not want that tainted. Who could blame them.
Alice in wonderland was my biggest obsession as a child… while it scared so many people and made people feel alone, for me I think it was the wonder and adventure while knowing she woke up at the end and it was just a dream … tbh my dreams are sometimes as intense like hers but I just loved seeing all the characters especially the flowers even though they were a bit mean lol
Can I ask you one question?
1/15/2924: Me too.
Am I the only one who thought it was incredibly weird that he befriended a little girl... Then proceed to take suggestive photos... Then pages were cut out of his diary.. How has nobody connected the dots yet???
Ohhhhh, it's even worse, Dodson befriended many a little girl. And took many a suggestive photograph, four nudes survive to this day. He must have been grooming and abusing and screwing them like crazy!
This why pedophiles get away with abusing children, because grown people will overlook and in this case romanticize the hell out of a man over a book he wrote. Basically the book is more important than the child. Thanks for that knowledge Absolute History!
Yesss, exactly what I was thinking. Fucking disgusting, everyone in this documentary trying to defect Carol should be ashamed of themselves
As someone who had a repressed paedo father, and the events of my childhood, this documentary and everyone's attitudes really upset me. People like that are the reason I've never come forward
They're actually making me question whether I'm looking too deeply into my childhood and it's so upsetting.
'There aren't any reports' well yeah because people like them make people like me doubt ourselves
And instead of blaming the grown ass man who is creepy around kids, she blames the mom for wanting to cut ties. The actual fuck? And was hinting the mom is a gold digger, like damn woman, that's so backwards.
43:41 This guy really cuts through the bs and romanticizing of all the horrible things which Lewis Caroll did despite writing this famous book.
Exactly. His attraction to female children was unnatural and the fact he carried around puzzles and magic tricks in his pockets to seduce them is very clear.
There is no doubt that Carrol was sexually attracted to prepubescent children? Please, detail the claims of sexual activity he underwent with prepubescent children that are apparently so well evidenced there is no doubt.
@@CherylSimser Why specify female? He entertained children of either gender, it just so happens that the cases discussed here are of girls as this work is focussed on Alice, but by no means did female children appear to uniquely capture his interest in the entertainment of children. Speaking of entertainment, that was the purpose of his puzzles and tricks, not seduction. If you have any evidence that he used puzzles and tricks to seduce anyone please, provide it.
@@piratewhoisquiet As another person commented in a comment thread : "On February 27,1893, he wrote to an illustrator by the name of E. Gertrude Thomson:"... I confess that I do not admire naked boys in pictures. They always seem to me to need clothes ;whereas one hardly sees why the lovely forms of the girls should ever be covered up!" Suggesting that girls should be naked all the time goes way beyond wanting to take an occasional photo of them for artistic purposes." So obviously he was interested in prebubescent females rather than boys. I really don't know why you are so defensive over this, it's pretty obvious that he was a repressed ped, there are to many "coincidences" to explain and prove him to be as innocent as you want him to be .
@@shedevil6034 girl right I'm reading the comments defending carrol, girl like it dont matter if pedophilia was known about because if it was rape you can't say that it wasnt known back then and people didnt see it as that because it's still rape and that wrong in any area
Of course that’s her! That photo is something straight out of the film Pretty Baby. We can’t make such gods out of our literary or art heroes that we blind ourselves to something pretty much off. His work was amazing. The rest, well we have to react to that in our own ways. I dislike the Alice books but I think there’s iconic parts in them that are really profound. It’s the conundrum of real life. No one is wholly perfect. That photo is really disturbing.
A third potential read of her sister's letter later in life is, "Here's what I told them to throw them off the trail." Her phrasing seemed to point this way. ("Because I had to tell them SOMETHING/give some reason, etc.")
EXACTLY, so what or whom was the real reason? Because there is little doubt, heck the grand-daughter says it, Dodgson was in love with Alice. A man who hand-pens that book and presents it to Alice (with Mum's permission) at Christmas is a man in love.
@@mrunning10wtf????
what's the problem? I stand by everything in my comment. do you even know about the Lorina letter to Alice?????
@@elisadjones
I love how they say unusual to describe pedophilia
The thing is that it's hard to say if he was full on into her or if he just loved her like his own daughter. So all things considered I think it comes down to the possibility of pedophilia but not necessarily a provable case for such an accusation. In other words it could have been pedophilia buy he could have loved them like a parent loves their child too. So it's hard to tell based on what we know
@@thememe986 if you love your own daughter you will not make her pose naked. You will RESPECT her and PROTECT her and that includes her body, her modesty 😡
@@thememe986 bro ur defending a dead pedophile 💀💀💀
@@_eysha im not defending anyone, I'm saying it's possible but there's two problems. The first is that the standards of the time wouldn't have seen his behavior as THAT weird. And two at this point there's no evidence, atleast that we can access. So I'm saying it's possible but there's no proof
Lol
Alice's mother did the right thing. Getting him away from her.
That's right! Not going to have my daughter marry one from the lower class! Away with you Rev. Dodgson!
@@mrunning10 ewww you
I'm happy at some point someone says it's a nightmarish world. This is how I've always felt about the story, even after watching the Disney adaptation.
The movie is not the same. The imagination is not actively engaged. Any CHILD being shown and read to or in reading AAIW whom feels a nightmare needs phycological counseling help and especially the parents who gave the child their own neurosis. Go back, listen to Will Self, @5:05, "nightmarish?" already childhood wonder gone, sad.
Alright, it’s clearly a picture of Lorina Liddel, this lady just doesn’t want to admit that or destroy her image of a beloved author.
her delusion and denial is madening throughout the documentary
i didn't see it like that at all honestly.. it's obvious the woman is biased and she admitted it herself, so she isn't delusional about it, but there is nothing else she could say really, because they cannot prove for a fact that it was 100% the same person, that's all. like she can't just outright say it like a fact just because 2 experts gave their personal opinions on it you know... that doesn't automatically make it true
The girl has a different face shape and her eyes are a different size and color. Plus there is barley a nose bridge, Lorena has a long one. So no.
Plus he posed his sitters, and she's just standing there.
I think the experts should take a look at his other photographs then judge.
@@decorusinitio7768 yeah honestly i immediately thought that the girl in the photo looked nothing like her and was surprised when the expert said that he actually thinks its the same person... i could immediately see so many obvious differences. not that it changes anything about the full story in the end but i'm surprised so many people are convinced it's her
Lets just be honest here. Lewis did in fact enjoy the company of kids and was seeking a relationship with them. I don't understand the reason to go in circles. I understand it was a different time where the age of consent was 12 but even then when Lewis met Alice she was literally 4 years old. I he waited for her to be legal that is literally GROOMING. There's just no other way to look at it. I was a sick time back then and just the actions alone of the family ripping some pages off his diary, Alice being sad after his departure, and overall loosing contact with him, speaks volumes alone. I have no idea where i heard this from but I remember reading that Lewis promised Alice he was going to marry her when she became old enough but the controversy was that he kissed her older sister and the deal was off that Lewis could marry Alice and the family completely stopped their interaction with Lewis. I also read that once the children reached passed 12 he would stop interacting with them. I still find it weird to be fascinated with the "prepubescent" body of these girls. All of this is being twisted man. at 43:00 the guy is spot on. Lewis, like many other people at that time, were repressed pedophiles. I don't know if that's correct or not but at the end of the day most people can agree that something was wrong with him .
Seems he was an earlier version of Charlie Chaplin.
Bingo. Well said.
@@loisreese2692
Right wasn't his wife 12 or so when he first started hitting on her? I believe there was a scandal when he married her.
Agree completely. Felt uneasy watching the whole thing...
the family cut ties because not because he was a pedophile , but because he was of the unfaithful kind . They had standards for their child bride to be.
First I thought the nip slip could have been an accident but remember how for older pictures to be sharp you have to be still for a while and there's no blurr indicating it fell at that moment.
Definitely sounds like he wanted to be more than friends but we can only hope he never touched them inappropriately or worse. He might have been daring enough to ask for one of their hands in marriage and that's why he was sent away.
Pedophiles will defend their own kind so they can keep supporting this "art form".
"nip slip" lmao you ever seen a cherub? Your ideas of fashion and decency are a product of this age, and while I agree with their applicability in this age I don't think it stretches to ages past. What about when it isn't an "art form?" Basically every ancient Greek scientist or philosopher was probably fucking little boys in the ass while inventing geometry and morals, but you don't care about that when you use their science or their morals do you?
LOL, you found one already defending their ART FORM. Like Perverts only just appeared in the last 50 yrs.
During the that era the age of consent was twelve they even said it
The family disowned him and his diaries for that time were destroyed by his family
@@alexiswaller3065 she wasn't 12. Don't gete started on 12 as a good marrying age for girls or boys. Just imagine at 12 being expected to run a household. Get a job. 😆
Let's not sugarcoat exactly what was going on...Alice's mom probably found out some very disturbing details especially regarding the seductive photos...
I always find it interesting how quickly people of today's age are willing to call a man a pedophile, regardless of whether the man ever acted on those impulses or even if he had those kind of feelings at all for children.
The presumption and assumption involved are so void of logic and ignorant that it's amazing period If you don't know something comma you don't know it!!
Also the way they keep saying "there is absolutely no evidence" oh you mean like all the pages following what is literally described as an "exile" being cut out of his journal? The mental gymnastics of this show are stressful and throughly disappointing.
Well they are right the is no evidance .....but there is enoff Circumstacial evidance to sudggest that something very Odd and scandalouse was going on.
Could you post a copy of those cut out journal pages please? I'd like to come to the same screwed-up imagined conclusion too!
They really fight to keep from using the P word, don't they. Assuring themselves that nothing disgusting was going on. Even as he photographed the children nude. This is really sad.
I appreciate the gentleman's comments at 43:52. He is NOT delusional.
@@piratewhoisquiet There were many nude photos of nude little children that they showed he took, but they found only one of a full frontal picture of a young teenage girl...something that was never OK to take a picture of. Just b/c he wrote a great book doesn't mean he was a great person. It's OK to say that all evidence points to him being a pedophile, and that's why he was banded from being with the girls suddenly and that's why his nieces cut pages out of his diary when he described what happened that got him banded.
@@piratewhoisquiet ONE?? he took photoes of them as young as 6 years old ffs and naked! Did you just look at the whole video with your eyes closed and fingers in your ears or what!?!??!
@@piratewhoisquiet There are many nude photos he took.
@@bettywith2girls you nailed it.
Before I watched that part I knew it'd be Will Self. He's always frank.
A celibate man taking day trips with young children and always having things in his pockets should he run in to children, is not just a great observer & lover of children. Not wanting to be know for who he was, constantly spying on these children and then photographing them in costumes and then eventually without clothes leads me to only one conclusion, and it is a deeply disturbing one. I thank God their Mother or Governess barred him from seeing the Liddel children, but I have to wonder...who else did he do this do, and just not make it as public?
Sorry for all those who still wish to see him as just quirky, I have to disagree, but we are all entitled to our own opinions.
My favorite story ever , I was 5 when I read it the first time, I am 38 now and still watch the movie every year and always looking for the book whenever I enter a library.
my theory for the ripped page in his diary was explaining what really happen that day which caused the rift between his friendship with the Little Family. I feel like he got caught taking the naked picture of Lorena by the Governess which then told the young lady's parents and because both parties were prominent figures of society they just have Lewis exiled so that the issue won't escalate that can cause negative impact to their reputations.
I was thinking the same thing. Her mother was making sure that he couldn't touch her daughters anymore. When he was let back in their circle he was not to have contact with the girls.
It was just explained that the rift had nothing to with Alice . Pay attention !!
@@roslyndantinori7313 She didn't mention Alice in her comment. She was talking about her SISTER LORENA. Pay attention and read the comment again !!
But if he was caught taking the picture would they not have confiscated the picture from him?
@@carolynsilvers9999 I suspect there were many photos of not just Lorena but many young girls. Being a pedophile was something kept hidden except in circles of associates/friends with the same proclivity. Even in the late 1800s it was a crime. If he kept a few for himself rather than passing them around with like-minded people, he would probably destroyed these later in life. Somehow that photo surfaced - an old acquaintance's perhaps?
"We can't say for certain it's not Loreena..." REALLY?! REALLY?! AN EXPERT SAID IT WAS HER, HE USED LEGAL AND NON-LEGAL LANGUAGE TO SAY IT'S HER!!!!
Who is Loreena?
@@dianahernandez2447 omg...
@@dianahernandez2447 Alice's sister
Guys this man was obviously a peto, it is hilarious that everyone is dogging it to protect an iconic story, Alice in Wonderland.
Pedo please NOT "peto." Everyone? Will Self said it quite plainly and the producers kept it in. And do you realize (go back reply listen carefully this time around) that as soon as Will Self was done answering the question regarding pedophilia, they cut to Ed Wakeling answering the question regarding abuse and molestation. Two different subjects and yet the editing suggests Ed was defending a pedophile. Replay, listen.
these guys r like: he asked a little girl for a lock of her hair and photographed her inappropriately isnt that so romantic- i mean isnt that such a great friendship😍🥰😘
idc if times were different back then, the meaning of children's bodies then meant pure then! the difference with dodgson and other child photographers of his time was that he had a creepy obsession with his model
It's incredible this shortish documentary under one hour has so many weird plot twists.
there is NO "plot" this was his life.
Is it strange that I , as a victim of child abuse, find this very hard to watch? Neither could I ever read my paper book copy of Alice in Wonderland. I’m not odd. But I found the book scary. I’m glad most people enjoyed the book and I mean no malice. It was just that the book never quite sat right with me.
It's not strange at all, I find it hard to watch too
You’re not the only one, I started reading horror books from the age 11 and Alice has always unnerved me more than anything written by Stephen King or James Herbert. Even the Disney cartoon makes me uneasy.
It sounded creepy and very dangerous to me too. when you are alone in a place where anything is so absurd and everyone seems so out of here that you can't rely on them as a child or even an adult does look like how it is for a kid in an unhealthy household. the excuse of "she's a strong minded child" is an excuse. A kid still needs to be cared for ! I felt the same for Peter Pan. I worried me
I'm so.sorry you had to deal with that :( I've been touched inappropriately at 3 but idk how I would be if I was abused. Stay strong 💜
@@Lexillios What you describe is also abuse. I am sorry that happened to you.
My favourite book ever. Disneys adaptation had me obsessed when growing up in the 80s. I love, love, LOVE this story. It always transported me to a better, magical place
An incredible documentary, some of the best and most interesting I've seen in a while - thank you!!
You do realize that the full-frontal at the end of the show was NOT Lorina Charlotte Liddell ?
.... and this is why I won’t be leaving my future children with anyone. Y’all weird as hell. Protect your kids y’all people love to turn a blind eye.
My mom didn't let us sleep over at friend's houses, and it was SO annoying. I fought her all the time on it. Once a woman told me I should come over and spend the night with her girls, but I didn't really like her daughters, so I was able to use it as an excuse. I thought, "Wow, that got me out of an awkward situation haha." Fast forward 5 years... turns out her husband was raping and sodomizing the girls....
My mom's rule saved me from a potential horrific night.
@@Persnicketychichi !! Omg my prayers go out to those girls. But same. My mother never allowed me to sleep over and I barely was allowed to go to friends houses especially if they had males in the house. I don’t even think I went to my friends houses till I was in HS and could defend myself more. But it has saved me too from their creepy older brothers and fathers that I later realized were predators…. Im 23 now and I still don’t like sleep outside of my own bed. The world is crazy.
@@stellablue1271 I know. It explained a LOT about why the girls were mean and moody. I just thought they weren't nice, but it was because they were undergoing trauma on a regular basis. Im happy to report he is in prison, and most the girls have moved on to marry and have happy lives.
@@stellablue1271 My mom is/was the same, especially when I was much younger she wanted to meet and know the parents before she would even think of letting me be at their house. That’s exactly why.
Who's turning a blind eye? We've ripped this guy apart so much he looks like chopped liver.
The fact that he said he loved her and liked little girls makes me want to vomit.
Love isn't wrong.
@@i5m5bob Love for a little girl coming from a grown man who photographed teenage girls is
@@i5m5bob What in the world is wrong with you?
@@i5m5bob being jailed isn't wrong too
You are really dirgty, woman
I was born in 75, I'm old now. I came to hear of this story as a child and it disturbed me but I couldn't put my finger on it. Now I finally can!
So just throwing out the first thought of mine when they said that picture had 'MC' on it and nobody knows what it could mean and how they're all "why would it be called Lorena Little?" Dude what if 'MC' stands for "My Collection"
So 2 experts confirm that it's the same type of camera and photo development that Caroll used and that the girl in the full frontal nude photo has the same features as Lorena... But the presenter still has her head in the sand - "can't be sure." What more proof do you need??
TheYNirvana you could tell she thought of the writer as a hero. However, I liked the guy who said pretty much if you have a person who writes a great book but then that person isn’t a great person it makes a problem.
@@leahhosman8896 Yes I liked him too! You can appreciate a book without sticking up for a problematic writer. Same with songs.
Well, for one thing a direct link between Carroll and that photograph. This documentary shows nothing of the kind. Nothing even hinting at it.
Same features likewise is not nearly as good as it sounds, because the brutal truth is lots of people look like each other. Some kind of link between that photograph and Lorena would be good--but all you have is a someone who resembles her.
So you have a photograph that cannot be dated, whose history is unknown, whose subject matter resembles someone, but no provenance of who took the photograph, when, where, nor of whom under what circumstances. But some who looked the model knew someone who once owned the same general type of camera. A very weak case as far as evidence goes.
And btw, why only two experts? Aren't there other experts in these fields? What are their opinions?
@@TheYNirvana same with everything.. you can like makeup without supporting the behavior of it's creator, you can like movies without liking the actor's or director's behavior ... Etc...
@@DavidMacDowellBlue Oh you are blind, is the same girl.
I’ve always read Alice in Wonderland as a nightmare, a feeling of being so out of place and nothing makes any sense, and the illustrations have always stuck in my mind. The Disney animated version had the same effect on me, even now as a 39 year old it still gives me anxiety, and I’ve no idea why is still makes me feel that way!
The way they talk about his infatuation with Alice is alarming, she was a child and they go on as if she was a young adult
Exactly,I feel you it was scary to me. I never got the hype around Alice in Wonderland either. Everyone's interpretation of what the story is suppose mean is different so I never got clarification. After watching this I'm glad I never liked it. That man is a pedophile.
Sir- you are right to feel as you do.
@@xoxoso295 only the writer new what was going in his mind. I believe it is not alice's wonderland but his.
why do I think that the missing pages had something dreadful and disgusting in it. Something to do with him admitting he loved Alice or something. Idk but his fam were protecting his reputation.
Or he sexually touched them and he wrote about it. Idk it’s steam he
Alice in Wonderland and it’s sequel was always a terrifying story to me, because, while I longed to be taken away from my abusive family and my life at the moment, it also manifested something I feared even more, which was loneliness. Today it’s precisely that horror which makes me love the book, as it brings up very distinctive characteristics of one’s psyche and that effect varies from person to person. Alice shows herself as a self assured child that seems disconnected from what’s happening around her and yet she’s not only the voice of reason within Wonderland (which I firmly believe to be a world within her mind which she created through an immense imagination along with mental disorders such as disassociation and schizophrenia) but also she presents herself as the only logical and mature being in it, as if implying she is the adult in it.
It was not until my teens when I found the video game “American McGee’s Alice” and it’s sequel “Alice Madness Returns”, which pretty much brings all these terrors to life, as it paints the narrative that Wonderland was indeed the product of Alice’s overexcited and neurodivergent mind, which became “corrupted” along with Wonderland after a tragedy that left her traumatised. This corruption was then further instilled within her after suffering abuse after abuse. It’s a grim, terrifying and fascinating series that I hold incredibly close to my heart, as it shows how Wonder and Madness can mix within one’s mind and how escapism can take many forms. It’s amazing.
My heartfelt sympathies to you for what happened. I can understand your reaction would be different. Read the books, re-capture childhood, confront, Leviticus 24:19-22, forgive, you are stronger than those God-Damned abusers. Don't stop, you'll know you're done when the books are no longer terrifying.
There's always some dark secret to all of these great works for some reason. Amazing story, revolutionary, but the author was lowkey in love with a child. Like no matter how different their views were back then, he was a little too close...
Just so you know it was normal back in the 19th century to take photos of nood children in fact it was actually very common for families to put their nood children on Christmas and birthday cards. They did it because in the 19th century nood children were a sign of purity beauty and innocence you can't look at the stuff that Carroll did from 21st century perspective, you have to look at it in a19th century point of view.
@@LillianGish4711 yeah, but a teenager?
@@flor473 she was still considered young then.
In love with or just a pedophile?
@@barbibutton9619 there's been research proving he was not a pedophile, maybe those researchs will one day be debunked and turns out he did in fact have certain feelings for the girls. but as far as I know he was not a pedophile and never did any inappropriate things with or to the children, at least in Victorian standards of what was inappropriate.
Out of respect for Lorena Liddell or who ever the child was, it would have been better not to reproduce the image of her naked body here. This has now become an online image of child pornography regardless of its vintage, historical context or the intended purpose of it in your documentary.
Agreed, I was surprised they showed us the whole image without any care for her privacy.
I thought the same thing
@@sdg2450 YES YES YES. I had to find this comment because I know I wasn't the one who thought this
Smae
Pornography? You do know what porn is, right? I'm not defending the artist, but seriously? Why are you sexualizing a child's breasts? Why are women so sexualized here in America? American culture is so sexualized and ashamed of bodies. In many places in Europe, they embrace their bodies. I'm so sickened by the fact that men can be shirtless but women can't. Just another double standard.
15:35
She looks like she's either not interested in the topic and just want to look either interested or friendly, or her mind is no longer in that body and is in a whole different universe and dimension
The fact that they found the naked picture of Lorena, evidence that it was taken by the same camera as Carrol, the forensic evidence matches and the host is still like "WELL WE JUST DONT KNOW FOR SURE"
The full-frontal nude is NOT Lorina Charlotte Liddell. It is definitely NOT a photograph taken by Dodgson. The "forensic" evidence does NOT match. Replay, listen this time. Stop submitting to thought control. Grab the Dodgson 1860 photograph of Lorina (not shown in this vid!) and do your own compare. And then ask yourself WHY the BBC did NOT show this picture????? It is not Lorina Charlotte Liddell. It is scary to think most viewers of this documentary come away with that impression. Scary. Rather than THINK, you go blindly right down the Dodgson Rabbit Hole.
@@mrunning10 Considering sheltering molesters has been nigh on a sideline for the BBC for much of living memory, why would they all of a sudden go out of their way to incriminate Carroll (something he does a fine job of doing of his own accord, I might add)?
The presenter seems adamant to prove Carroll’s innocence even as there are experts at the very end basically saying they think he has taken that picture of Lorena Liddell. That, to me, is very upsetting. The experts have analysed their pictures tell the woman that they are pretty sure it’s Carroll and she just ignores it and goes on talking about him with such admiration. Just because he was a good & imaginative writer does not mean he was automatically a good person.
Yeah I was watching her and she looked so fake when they would say that it was most likely him like “hmmm yes, I’m going to ignore that :)” like ew
I felt the contrary, the conclusion of this video leaves no real doubt on his perversion, kinda courageous for a british reportage on a british litterature celebrity
But he was a good person.
Legality is not morality. Legality is only suppose to be used as a defense in court. I wonder if the people defending Carroll’s pedophilic behavior because “it was a different time” are tired from the mental gymnastics they have to do in order to defend him. The reason why taking pictures of children in the nude is frowned upon now and not then could be because 1)photography was a new medium and society wasn’t aware on how it could be abused and 2) we always knew behavior like Carroll’s is wrong. Reputation matters and to “taint” that by letting others know about how you as a parent would let your children befriend someone like Carroll is the reason why so many stayed silent. Reputation affected your status and many valued that over the consequences that the newfound “tainted” reputation could bring when exposing a scumbag
truth, "legality is not Morality" at the time NEITHER were a subject. it was neither Illegal, nor was it immoral.. once again you are subjecting the past to today's standards.. how idiotic are you?
We don't need to theorise why their standards of acceptable photographs were different, we know full well. They didn't sexualise children, nude children are an artistic feature going back centuries representing innocence, fertility, spontaneity and potential. His behaviour also wasn't pedophilic, pedophilia is sexual attraction to prepubescent children. No mental gymnastics required, there's simply no evidence that his interest in the Liddle girls was sexual other than a single photograph, taken of one of the girls when she had clearly begun pubescent development and was likely above the age of consent. That's simply not pedophilia. Also, no we did not always know the behaviour you attribute to Carrol was wrong, search up "ancient Greek pederasty" and ask if whether he was fucking little boys invalidates the Socratic Method because he almost certainly was, and it definitely doesn't. But, while you sit here and profess the eternal moral standards you hold you still use logic and reason. You still use geometry. You still believe in the validity of the Socratic Method. Are you a hypocrite, or is your comment merely garbage?
People are not defending him, people say Victorians didn't care about a grown up man being friends with their children. The Llewelyn Davies boys became friends with J.M. Barrie and called it uncle Jim and they became the inspiration for Peter Pan and naked pictures of the children were taken in lakes or at the beach and the parents took full frontage pictures of their children too and it was fine FOR THEM back then but people don't say the parents shouldn't have been cautious or that is ok for them right now or even back then but they didn't live back then. You can't use a time machine and say: "pay attention!" to the parents and to the children. You can only do it now.
you're right when you say Legality isn't morality. but is it not safe to say the legality of something can shape societies perception on the morality of it?
@@piratewhoisquiet Are you okay? You think that just because the Liddell girl was going through puberty, she was capable of consent?! I’m seriously concerned.
I grew-up listening to my Dad tell me the story of Through the Looking Glass in Yiddish. When I finally got to school & saw the book I was shocked & cried for the rest of the day because it was. Not in Yiddish.. But the art in the book drew me in... Especially the Twiddle Twins & the caterpillar.. I've even made mad Hatter.& Tea party tea-pot.we hung 🥳🎉.. We hung them on our x-mas tree!
So basically the carol guy was the R Kelly of that time
The photo is haunting. Poor little girl knew that wasn't ok to do. Heartbreaking that this wonderful book is overshadowed by the sickness of this pedophile. I'll always love the book but my heart breaks for the little girl or girls who had a friend that took advantage of that friendship. Sick. The only person saying what was accurate was the man in the pink shirt. Infuriating that this predator was celebrated and defended by some.
Dodgson was a pedophile not a predator. The full-frontal is NOT a photograph of Lorina Charlotte Liddell. Dodgson collected purchased all sorts of photographs over a thousand, this one is a medical condition photograph in his collection (replay the first expert, he even said it "this is a dealer's inscription 'from the collection of Charles Dodgson"), a very simple explanation for the full-frontal photograph. They were all supposedly burned by his executors by his instructions by one of the nieces executing his estate per his will. Per the instructions in his will. Pretty conscientious and moral upstanding and ethical man to take such steps. Somehow this controversial photograph missed the fire. There is NO evidence even hinted or circumstantial from any source at the time that Dodgson ever abused, threatened, molested, coerced, connived, cajoled, or set up an instance of behavioral misconduct; misconduct defined in HIS time or OURS. In fact, not mentioned in the documentary is what happens in Dodgson's social life and contacts among many of the children and families AFTER the rift, after all the pictures of all the girls and all the families years later.
This is one of my all time favorite book. But now knowing the story behind it made me feel slightly off. I mean no doubt the book is amazing, but as I reread it now with this information in mind, it makes me feel uneasy. And how these people are trying to romanticize his pedophilic actions is just awful. Yes, they are giving us another insight about Carol’s life, both viewed in a negative and a positive manner. At some point one might be convinced, that he is, in fact, was just very fond of children or whatnot. However, I do not think taking photographs of naked children is something that could ever be justified as “friendly” or “appreciating the beauty of the human body.” Anyway, I just want to share my thought and disappointment knowing that my fave book’s background is something like this.
PS. All of them avoided saying pedophile, but the man @43:20 is my hero for being straightforward about it.
Watching these videos about og childrens authors has really helped turn me towards reading
Imagine drawing and writing all that without mistakes..... I could effing never
When a mistake was made the page was discarded and another started anew.
"Modern values on a different age"? There is NO AGE whereby taking provocative photos of children was an acceptable thing to your age person... nor would an average man do it. To me this book is a great warning story of what happens when you are curious about things that you feel is not good for you; yet follow them !down a rabbit hole". It very well could Lewis's autobiography.
To me this book is a great warning story of what happens when you are curious about things that you feel is not good for you; yet follow them !down a rabbit hole". -- GREAT ANALOGY!
You have to take that into account though cause it was the beginning of photography and people were amazed to be immortalized on them.
Unfortunately pedophilia was quite common at the time. Accepted? No. Common? Yes.
@@vintage7256 how do you know he wasn't asexual when even nowadays people think of peadophilia right away but don't even know about asexuality. Only Carroll could say if the pictures weren't just esthetic but that he had an attraction towards children or not but he is dead so we will never know.
@@vintage7256 Still common.
To the men in this video defending him: why? You’re not a little girl, he’s not going to be interested in you..
TheOctoberOwl weird comment but ok
I was when I watched this, am I In danger?
SteelRodent exactly, what are these people going to do, dig him up and arrest him?
It was 150 years ago- he's not hurting anyone now. What do you want us to do? Dig him up? Burn his corpse? Also, love the disguised sexism you got there, luv x
They’re probably subconsciously defending themselves really! No one who isn’t interested in children would defend him!
I actually had nightmares after reading n watching Alice in Wonderland in my childhood.. It scared the crap out of me just imagining a little girl all as alone in another world with weird characters.
Who ever said the story, where the reader imagines, translates well to a cartoon?
"imposing modern morals" The age of consent was TWELVE, but that was still too old for him. Even back then people thought the age he showed interest in was too young
Alice’s great granddaughter looks just like her.
i was thinking the exact same thing
IKRRRR. I was thinking, "This chick looks a lot like Alice", just before I saw her description under her name.
Oh and if her mum did put a stop to it it wasn't cos she was a 'snob' and looked down on him, maybe it was cos he was a grown man and her daughter was a literal pre pubescent child! the way Alice's great grandaughter talks is as if Alice was an adult, not a child, not taking into account her age.
Alice was pubescent, not a child at the time. 1864. 12. "Age of Consent" So Alices' great granddaughter who heard it from Alice's son, Caryl, got it wrong? You know better right?
Thanks for the great video. Until now, I didn't know about this side of the author's life.
The parallels of what is being said about Carroll and what has been said about Michael Jackson are very hard to miss.
43:15, 43:40: The best take. Also, we need to get real, “young naked children” is really young naked girls.
Yes that man was spot on.
38:06 Man, the last photo of Alice taken by Dodson is haunting. To me, she doesn't look sad, exactly, I'd describe it as weariness and reproach. I really hope she ended up being happy with her life.
To me she looks kinda scared, like she’s ready to run if she needs to
@@maddiemose9763 That's because you must think Dodgson molested her? Alice is sad in the last Dodgson photograph of her because she has grown and he has not.
New Subscriber here. Very interesting content indeed!!! I never would have even suspected anything.....but WOW!!!
Thank you for sharing....WOW!!!!!
Can't wait to check out more of your content!
Yes yes yes, but what do you think about this Dodgson Problem?
Imagine being abused as a child and having proof of that abuse spread to over one million people 160 years later. Imagine the rhetoric surrounding that photo being in favor of your abuser. Imagine being exploited even after you've taken your last breath.
as a child , my mom bought us a re-make copy , of the original book............i found the illustrations to be , quite SCARY........there was something VERY DARK , about it all.......thank you , for sharing...........
Then I m not the only one who got scared 😅
I too was frightened of it. I couldn't imagine anything worse than falling down a hole and suddenly being in such a freaky world. Oddly, I loved The Wizard of Oz, despite almost the exact same thing happening, although in the books - there were more, and I read them all - it was all really happening, not a dream, and was pretty freaking scary. (The time that the Lion and Dorothy are imprisoned by the WW of the W in particular is awful!)
Agree, I was terrified when I was a kid and saw this book :\
Yeah it's a creepy book.
where did she bought it?
" a dreadful snob " ......well these words are definitely not the words of a great or smart Human Being ...just a woman who cares about fame ...and the Mother was just a vigilant Mother and not a famous writer......
I agree. I think Alice's Mother figured out what he was doing and saved her children.
yeah what a dreadful snob how dare she want to protect her sweet innocent little girls from the nasty pedophile that was preying upon them...
...he asked for a lock of hair
The elderly man in the blue shirt is keeping real ...hmmmm
@@lizzie0canada9roxya Right, how dare she fear for her children’s safety.
@@90sDRgirl Yes? Lead on please?
I have glow in the dark paw prints that go around my kitchen and "We're all mad here" across one of the cabinets also in glow in the dark paint.
You can see how the hostess dies a little inside every time the evidence turns out right with very little wiggle room of doubt. She looks over whelmed
Allways thought that "Wonderland" was an insaneasylum
same or that she was insane in general
to me it was like getting a kid into an unhealthy/dangerous space that resembles an unhealthy relationship
When she asks what his gut instinct is :’3😂 “erm...just everything about it screams pedo really”
Jesus just got to the face analysis bit and it’s just obvious dude. The guy literally says there’s no indications of a significant difference in any of the facial features and when they’re all isolated it’s very clear :3 she just states all the facts about it over and over then goes “but who knows ey? It was fuckin ages ago”
So true
He was the only one interviewer that spoke the truth and wasn’t afraid to do so, like bitch it’s so OBVIOUS
WTF did you hear that in your head? The first expert NEVER said that. WFT? The first expert gave an opinion of the technical aspects of the PHOTOGRAPH and not the CONTENT. That first expert was way out of line in saying Dodgson's name. Down the Rabbit Hole we go.
@@lovekammer6743 So not.
Why do we still read this book to children and give this man any praise? He was a pervert "Not in love with her" the way they are trying to romanticize this relationship with a Grown man and a young child is disgusting. This is a early documentation of grooming. This book use to scare me as a child and now watching this I see why. Poor Alice
the reason the book is scary is because he suffered from a rare migraine condition that used to cause him to hallucinate which is why the story is trippy and psychedelic and he used laudanum (opium tinture) to ease the pain thus further enhancing his travels into a surreal dreamworld and why every hippy loves the book including myself the mans tortured soul is his problem alone inspite of those disturbing photos there is absolutely no proof he abused anyone and you can't label someone by there thoughts and feelings otherwise we would all be under scrutiny for the bad things our uncontrollable mind thinks you can't call him a paedo because of his thoughts and as he was celabate its unlikely he acted on those thoughts you might have thoughts and feelings you can't restrain doesn't mean he did and as he never actualy hurt anyone it would be a huge loss to the world if his books didn't exist they have ignited many ceative fires and along with the Narnia chronicles and books the folk of the faraway tree and wind in the willows our childhoods would of been a dull place without them childhood is the most precious time in your life before society programmes and corrupts you and turns you into another cyborg i'm just glad you weren't my mother theres enough narrowminded creativity destroyers in the world forget about the man the book is what counts and as a middleaged hippy i still love the book as they say God works in mysterious ways if it wasn't for his secret torment we wouldn;t have the worlds 3rd most popular book for adults and children alike anyway it looked to me like Alice was equaly infatuated with Lewis always hanging around pestering him 4 stories so a lesson to all parents if you don't give your child enough love and ATTENTION they will seek it out elsewhere nutrue your childs imagination don't destroy it or they will go looking 4 jimmy's magic chair so beware narrowminded parents your going to create the very scenario your trying to prevent!
@@markhall42 if you enjoy reading books from a man who was high on drugs writing about fantasy places to take a child whom he was grooming the same child he also had partially nude photos of that's your business! I will never support such things children are to be protected by the grown ups not taken advantage of... Do you see the photos of the child did she appear to be in a fantasy land? There is no wonder and no magic in any of this when you know better you are supposed to do better! There was a huge Injustice done to Alice by all the grown ups in her life. He may have never physically touched her we will never know the answer to that but what we see is a grown man with partially nude pictures of a child who looks scared. Which is a sexual violation!
@@candecemo "...a huge injustice done to Alice...?" WTFAUTA?? How is it "advantageous" for Dodgson? What did he gain for the loss of Alice?
43:16
Couldn't have said it better myself mate 😂
Why are we acting like it’s okay to be sexually interested in girls that young at all?? Regardless of the “social structures” at the time? Part of why we view things like that as bad now is because they’re BAD. He was CLEARLY interested in young girls specifically, and combined with the nude photos and the comment of the rabbit he drew looking like he was “courting” Alice, I think it’s clear. Part of me wonders if she’s sad in the last photo of her that was taken by Carol because she knows he abused her.
Props to her mother for getting that creep away from her.
Exactly👏
wheres Chris Hanson w=TCAP when you need him ..
I was thinking the same thing
No one is acting like it's okay to be sexually interested in girls "that young" because there's no evidence Carrol's interest in the Liddle girls was sexual, at least not before the eldest started coming of age and by that point she isn't "that young" because that's what of age means. How is he a "creep?"
@@BEAUTYnIQ unfortunately, Chris Hanson was not alive when Lewis Carroll was behaving like a pedo.
Wow i almost came out of this thinking what he was doing was okay, before coming to my senses, they are romanizing this so much it blinds judgement
You mean romanticising, I believe. And what he did absolutely was okay. What is "okay" is subjective, and collectively decided by society. We are more than a hundred and fifty years too late to judge Carrol differently.
Yeah it's almost like they dont realize the story of alice in wonderland is literally a part of his grooming. Its disgusting
@@marthals89 nobody can tell. What if he was asexual? And the pictures only considered esthetic at the Victorian era but that he wasn't sexually attracted to children? We will never know. Only Carroll could tell. Even nowadays people don't know about asexuality. People accused J.M. Barrie of peadophilia on nothing when he likely was a Victorian asexual and that's why he could write Peter Pan. The world asexual didn't exist so how could people tell they were asexual or not?
@@somebodysomeone453 yea nah
@@somebodysomeone453 Yes that is a possability, but still his attachment and behaviore would still have been or should be considered a little Odd at best.
There are many amazing parallels between the story of Michael Jackson and the story of Lewis Carroll. The psychology, their career their social unprivate daily lives. It's amazing. I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of what Lewis Carroll was about and his relationship to little Alice in his mind but seeing as how I might write a paper about that I probably won't included here. But certainly if there's any sort of afterlife in which we retain characteristics of our worldly selves, Michael and Louis will have a lot to talk about.
if you do write about it you should link it here, i’d definitely be interested in giving it a read
Standards of etiquette, morals, and values have changed over the decades. For example, my child hood in the 70's when your neighbors looked out for your children and scolded you for bad behavior as they walked you home to today if you speak to a child about wrong behavior a parent is ready to press charges. 1800's to early 1900's had a far different aspect on life and etiquette than what we have through last decades. Back in those days they took photos of the dead, today we would deem it to be very morbid and strange. Parents take photos of their babies getting their first bath and so on. So, in all due honesty I think it comes down to what we find innocent, appropriate or controversial and suggestive for pedophilia; to put our own minds at ease. We all tend to pass judgement upon behavior and so on and then question later or not at all. Regardless Carol was a great story teller and created a world that children find to be magical in some aspect. I know for myself when I was young, I always dreamed of having a tea party with the hatter and the hare.
How can the presenter say the topless image isn’t necessarily a photo of lorena taken by caroll...... both the analysts confirmed it and it’s literally her face
The presenter is talking about the lack of documentation that prove it. Provenance is very important in the art world when attributing something to someone. Experts can weigh in, and the show did have the photo reviewed by 2 experts. But until the greater field of experts on the subject agree to their statements, it isn't considered an accepted truth. Unless someone comes forward with the original plate negative, or another print of the photo that hasn't been cropped and therefore contains LC's handwriting, it is still only someone's opinion.
We know it's her, but it still can't be categorically proven beyond reason of all doubt.
It is NOT Lorina Charlotte Liddell.
Why not read up on AI facial recognition and ask why no mention of it on this issue? Ask yourself why the other experts who gave a differing opinion are not shown? And the first expert gave an opinion of the technical aspects of the PHOTOGRAPH and not the CONTENT. That first expert was way out of line in saying Dodgson's name. And hello Mr.Second Expert, ever hear of AI Facial Recognition?
The photographs are different but close enough for shoddy investigative journalism and conspiracy theory. It is not Lorina Charlotte Liddell. Read up on "epicanthal" WRT eyes.
Look at the Dodgson 1860 photo of Lorina (not used in the documentary) compared to this claimed Lorina full-frontal ALSO DATED 1860. Where are the "burns" or "pock-marks" on Lorina's face in the Dodgson photograph? MISSING.
Read up on the Era's social environment and of the wet collodion process. Hells Bells, the photograph is dated 1860, BEFORE Dodgson even had a studio at Christ Church. Where the hell was this photograph supposed to be taken? In the Deanery Garden? This ain't in the era of the cellphone where we snap our brains out and post all over the globe in an instant. Read up on the the physical locations of Dodgson's Christ Church and Badcock Yard studios. WAY TOO INVOLVED to arrange this photograph. It would be PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for Dodgson to take such a photograph of Lorina back in this time / era.
Take a look of the Dodgson 1870 photograph of Lorina, now 21, this is the look of a woman whom Dodgson, if we believe the full-frontal is genuine, essentially stripped her naked and cold and afraid and took hours to photograph her (essentially Victoria Era rape) and now stares back at her rapist? This is the face of the woman whom Dodgson corresponded with the most, all his life of any of the sisters??
Lorina and Alice were as close as any sisters could be, and Alice names a son "Caryl" The rapist of her sister?
This is a scary video because most viewers see it with eyes wide shut.
@@mrunning10 lmfao. Go admit yourself to a mental hospital
Oh Jesus Christ! Kind of an Off Topic but not too much actually. This Documentary made me think of American Mc. Gee’s “ Alice Madness Returns”, in which you find the recurring phrase “ There are no Centaurs in Oxford!”
I never understood the meaning, I just thought it was gibberish.
But then I remembered. In the videogame It’s quite clear Alice’s Older sister was regularly abused by a family friend and Doctor, Angus Bumby.
What would a rape look like through the eyes of a little girl? If the people were in a doggy style position, barely lightened by the candles in the middle of the night... a weird looking Centaur.
“ There are no Centaurs in Oxford!” Is just Alice’s mind realizing she witnessed a rape.
I am convinced Mc.Gee heard of the True story of the Liddell’s and thus kept this creepy background detail.
I’m mind blown at the moment!
Wait whatt??? Who is Angus? Caroll?
You have to be in literature or law or something. I mean nice catch...interesting argument.
There are no centaurs in Oxford is her knowing she has to figure out what she saw walking past her room, in her house in Oxford. Because the figure was Bumby, but at the time she thought she had seen a centaur because of the way he cast a shadow and her active imagination.
@@maddiphen2538 Angus Bumby is a character in the video game Alice: Madness Returns, a game with IIRC no more than a superficial connection to the story of Alice's adventures in wonderland. 3/5 with good writing but poor mechanics, would recommend to anyone the aesthetic appeals to because if it doesn't, you won't play it but if it does, you'll probably both play it and enjoy it.
@@piratewhoisquiet I agree. Though I'm excited for the prequel, hopefully they won't cancel the new game
The documentary it's,upon my word superbly engaging indeed I must acknowledge I genuinely enjoyed it.
I do look forward to see many other contents so as this one.
And the full-frontal, was that not very disturbing? You believed it was Lorina?
@@mrunning10 i won't hide, the chief subject was quite unsuitable however somehow intriguing