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Job Shop Measuring & Metrology Tips with Mitutoyo!
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2024
- Measuring Tool and Metrology Do's & Don't in the Machine Shop!
Thanks to Mitutoyo for co-hosting the video!
Interested in Metrology? Be sure to check out:
Tom Lipton: bit.ly/2mko04F
Robin Renzetti: bit.ly/2lV91Ns
Anyone own ceramic gauge blocks? amzn.to/2l0QH6p
Noga Mag Base: amzn.to/2mAcwFZ
Subscribe For More: bit.ly/22CjJoK
Music copyrighted by John Saunders 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH
Hey John,
Congratulations you are heading into the very interesting world of metrology. Your ability to make things is directly related to your ability to measure them. So your measuring has to be better than your manufacturing abilities.
On your gage blocks. There are wringing films on the gage block surfaces. These can contribute significantly to total gage block stack errors if not done correctly. In fact the published length of a gage block includes one wringing film as if it was wrung to a measuring platen.
"Metrology, Its a dirty business" (Oxtool quote)
Talk to you soon,
Tom
oxtoolco, I agree, but John missed thermal expansion. Robin Renz in one of his videos where he had setup your gauge block he restored, you can clearly see just from the heat of one finger move the indicator. I think it's something we should all be aware of like cosines and abbey errors. Quote: "Any measurement that you make without the knowledge of its uncertainty is completely meaningless."
Professor Walter Lewin, MIT
MrVajutza, I think this is more of a general introduction. If we were going to get picky we would address using a flat standard on a mic(big no no because of surface area/pressure) and also calibrating the mic to the position it will be used in because of gravity's effect(more critical on large mics), thermal expansion, etc. This is a great video to familiarize people with metrology. Good job John, and keep up the great work!
What's the name of Robin Renz channel? Thank you
Robrenz
The notch on the end of the caliper bar is to let you measure depth even when there is a slight radius at the bottom of a hole. Source: A friend of mine in R&D at Mitutoyo.
Can u let us know how to repair flange micrometer if flange wear?
My metrology professor told us rule number 1: Don't trust the salespeople when buying equipment.
But these are all good tips.
Max Maker The difference is that Mitutoyo knows they're the best, with Starrett and B&S. They don't need to sell things, they just need to make sure you get what you need or at least things that might make your life easier. It'd be much different for a newcomer to try to convince you why their product is better and cheaper, without the reputation to fall back on.
The company sales people and many of the technicians know very little about the application or worse your application of their technology, but the big names have put in the most work figuring this out. Be prepared to pay for it. Mitutoyo and Brown and Sharp/Tesa are really in a class of their own.
Have you ever been a sales person? You may not understand that "we don't have to sell to you anymore" is the greatest marketing line ever created
Mitutoyo calipers can be considered among the best. Mitutoyo micrometers have a HUGE flaw by using flat standards. I wrote up a article on the errors from using a flat standard on a instrument that is made to check round parts. Im not nesc knocking Mitutoyo, just be aware that in critical work Starrett is king for mics. I do prefer Mitutoyo calipers over Starrett though :)
Jeremiah, you can always get round end standards if you are really worried about the accuracy in certain specific situation. And those mics? They are not "made to check round parts", they can be used for nearly anything.
Thanks, would be great to hear from a carbide insert company about different grades and coatings.
I always heard "measure twice, cut once". Which is great. But then a machinist colleague told me "cut twice and it's still too short"...that definitely changed the way I think about metrology.
2 years later and this video is still great! Thanks John and Mitutoyo!
John, This was an awesome video. Special thanks to you and Mitutoyo for sharing all the info. There is so much to learn about metrology but so little information like this out there. Keep it coming.
Definitely want more of these!
Great video John. That setup to show how gravity affects and pulls on the holder was awesome. Very informative video. Hope to see more like this
I use Mitutoyo Micrometers and Calipers everyday. They are my personal tools and I make my living with them. Thank you, Mitutoyo, for making excellent tools.
Love the information and videos. Always learn something, even after 20 plus years of machining.
Wish this video showed a more close up and detailed view of the measuring techniques you use.
Thank you, and I appreciate your time and effort explaining difficulties and solutions to what seem like easy answers.
I'll stay tuned for more knowledge and help you provide.
Thanks again ,
Michael
Awesome information and refresher! Thanks for making this video John!
Very nice video John, keep them coming! Your shop is really looking good. Thanks for mentioning my channel it is greatly appreciated.
ATB, Robin
awesome John! Great job, love all of these tips, that gravity demo is nuts! definitely going to change the way I work on lathes!
Hey John, I have to say, as a novice machinist and master machine tech, your videos are the reason i am doing this(i.e. Becoming a micron quality cnc machinist). As always a pleasure:) Thanks!
John I just got up and went and opened ALL my thimbles and caliper jaws Thanks so much for the tips and all that you do for us out here in youtube class!
Loved the gravity demo. I blew an entire Saturday chasing a few thou lost to gravity. Your *click* moment was way more exciting than mine!
Best part about your channel John, is you having people dropping in to show there wares or you visiting other shop to get ideas of how they operate.
These types of video,s is why it,s worth watching.
Thanks for the video.
Regards Peter.
Great video John. I would love to see more like this!
Thank you John, this is some of the best stuff I've seen for a long time. Many tips and tricks for us new guys to machining and measuring. Excellent. One thing you did not mention with respect to the pressure on calipers; one should practice and develop the feel for correct pressure by repeat measuring gauge block and gauge pins. Stefan Gotteswinter has demonstrated the gravity effect in one of his excellent videos. His is the only mention of this I've seen before.
Boy that Mitutoyo guy was nervous when you flapped that stack of gauge blocks around, he was following your every move. LOL
Keep up the good work
Awesome, Awesome video John. Please get some more of this going!!!
dude, I need this. I'm just a electrician but I've been making a basement shop so yeah, definitely appreachiated
Thanks for this one John! I like the conversation in the videos.
On the topic of metrology and gravity, I once worked on a part for a hydro electric dam. It had a 24 foot inside diameter that needed to be measured with an inside micrometer. In order to compensate for the sag of the bar micrometer, it was calibrated on a laser setting device while being held only on each end of the bar. When measuring, the guy on each end had to hold the micrometer in the same spots the calibrating machine held it. Temperature differential between the part and measuring device also became a big factor.
Sweet Moses!
Welcome to the land surveyor's world, at least the world before lasers. You used a steel tape to measure distance. A 100' chain (tape) was good to a small fraction of an inch. IF it was level, and IF it was pulled to the right tension, and IF it was held correctly at the right points, and IF you measured the average temperature of the tape and applied the right compensation factor.
@@lwilton I'm not sure even my dad ever used a tape measure. He's been surveying for decades.
I thought I had a fair grasp on how to use all the items you guys showed. Man, SO MUCH I'd never considered! Great Vid guys. Thanks heaps!
Great video, such an important topic to us all, please MORE like this one!
Love this one, definently want to see more of this. I've heard people say "If you can measure it, you can machine it." I'm not sure if that's strictly true, but no doubt measuring is the cornerstone of getting it right.
Great content, thank you guys for taking the time to show this, really good for anyone starting in this industry
This can be used as a training tool for newbies.
Awesome vid. I used mics when I was a noob machinist in the 90's and I use calipers all the time at work for modeling things but this video was a nice reminder of the correct way to have repeat-ability. LOL, why do I love this stuff so much? Damn right I want to see more.
Always happy to learn more. I would welcome in depth metrology methods and techniques.
Thank you so much for going through the beginner stuff, because I’m a beginner. Great info.
Great vid. Even as a professional machinist I learned a few good points. It's funny that I've always stored my micrometers like that too, not because anyone told me, but just as a general observation of storing integrity dynamics. Glad to know I have not been overly paranoid all these years.
wonderful and informative, definitly would like to see more
Cheers
I subscribed to their channel after I saw it on your Instagram. Not many views but good info. It's a shame they don't have more subscribers or views. It's great to see your shop in the background of their videos. Really great tips. Thanks.
Very cool! love to see more!
Very informative, thanks John!
Great job guys.
I've got a 0-1" Quantumike and I later bought a 1-2" Quantumike. I love them both but find I don't need to use the 1-2" one nearly as often. To get consistent results you still need to develop a feel for the speed and force you use to close them even with the clutch. I also have a Mitutoyo 6" caliper that I carry around with me most of the day. I recently got one of Shars Aventor calipers for home and I'm really impressed with it for the price.
Great video, learnt something, great tips as well. It would be good to see more.
Thanks for yet another excellent video!
Great and useful video John, thanks.
SUPER! I learned a bunch in this single video!
Phil
Hey John I have a 0-1 quantumike and I use it all the time and hold tenths with it. Highly recommend.
I have the older quikmic. Good mic but really only for out of machine measuring. Is the quantumike good for in machine measurements?
Brilliant video. Loved the gravity demo. Thanks
Gravity, its awesome! Cool tip, don't worry i have most likely done the same but not counted the measurements as it was weird while it moved.
Always cool, love to learn this stuff to put to use in my home shop, i just wish i had tools or machines like those.
Excellent presentation. This is the education revolution.
Liked this video! I learned several surprising things :)
Oh, this video will be helpful for a nubie like me!
I am quite surprised that there was no mention of thermal expansion difference between steel and ceramic regarding the gage block demo (also carbide gage blocks). If your shop varies in temperature it is best to measure with as close of materials as possible (obviously no such thing as aluminum gage blocks of course) and the rate of expansion between ceramic and steel is different enough to cause issues should you be measuring at a temperature in which the part is not expected to operate. Dedicated inspection setups generally require a minimum of 24 hour temperature normalization in the same environment in which the gages are kept and then certified that they have been inspected at that temperature.
That is a biggie !!
Great episode!
Good stuff! Very informative.
THAT was super interesting. Thanks!
I have a set of QuantuMikes and it's my go to for anything precise. I highly recommend them. The rapid travel makes a big difference during tedious inspections. I repair machine tool spindles and do a lot shaft and bearing spacer inspections and grinding. These mics are consistent, good to a micron, fast and coolant proof. You can't beat them. Period.
Thanks John and Mitutoyo for this very informative video. Metrology is a fascinating field of study and practical use. If you get a chance to make more videos on the subject go for it.
Really good tips in this one.
Loved it would hope you do more like this
The Mitutoyo guy is very sharp. great video!
Nobody needed to sell me my Mitutoyo gear, I just saved up until I could afford it. Thanks for another excellent video John :-)
Great video, Enjoyed that thanks
Great video, thank you.
Great video!!!
@NYCCNC The answer to 18:21: On my old Mitutoyo dial calipers it's obvious - the bar has a "b" profile, with a square bar running down the channel and a thin tang to cover the rack gear next to the channel and keep the shop goo out. The thin tang is cut off about .23" from the end, leaving just the square bar. Digital calipers don't use a rack gear, so the bar can just be a rectangle for stiffness, but they cut the end down to fit in smaller spaces - and just kept the offset style of the manual calipers for aesthetics (and also probably the simplest to machine).
I thought the Mitutoyo rep was great there..he has the info.. really impressive. I've always had good service from Mitutoyo..their equipment is top notch..it's really well finished and nice to use.
Learned a lot! Thanks!
Great Video!
Great stuff, thanks
John in my high performance engine machining class we learned to check parts by pinching the jaws of the caliper to the part instead of using the plastic or wheel. reasoning is you can't flex the caliper if you pinch at the contact point to your part.
Gage block adhesion after the air has been pushed out of the way,is due to the electron's around every surface atom switching place's with the atom next to it .this is called the Van der Waal's force, they don't have to be the same material's to do this they just need to be very flat .the closer they are the more electron's may jump from one atom to the next . hope that helped John.
Oh and you and Kemal get to explain to my wife what a quantum mic is and why we need 4 now. :)
ringing is the diffusion of material into each other. amazing that ceramic and steel would work.
John its Van der Waals force. The blocks once the air between them is removed stick because the materials contact so effectively. Same forces that drive capilary action and what sticks Gecos to walls. If two surfaces of pure metal (unoxidised) are placed against each other and they are PERFECTLY flat they will weld together. They will become one piece of metal. Most metal has at least a one molecule thick layer of oxide so this is very rare.
A friend of mine used to work in aerospace and he told me one of the challenges was that in the vacuum of space the high quality gold pins in multi-pin connectors will weld themselves together, therefore they need to be gas purged in order to prevent this from happening. I think it is known as cold-welding. Not sure if this is the same as Van der Waals force, but non the less an interesting challenge if you are building space-craft! Great video John. Thanks for this. I am surprised Mitutoyo do not have a video series on CZcams themselves. They are missing a trick there!
Wringing from the NIST Gage Block Handbook - www.mitutoyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Wringing-from-NIST-Gage-Block-Handbook.pdf
Well.... mysterious-er and mysterious-r! So it seems the fact is nobody really knows......can you believe that!? We humans have a lot still to learn. (Me especially)
While that PDF sure has a great intro this one mentions the oil films with some extra details: www.starrett-webber.com/gb46.html i.e. "[Step] 2. Wipe the surfaces of the blocks to be wrung gently across the oiled Wring Pad. " and "Gage block length is defined as an interferometric measurement when the gage block is wrung to a
flat platen. This includes one wringing film in the defined length of the gage block"
It has little, if anything to do with Van der Waals forces, it’s merely atmospheric pressure pushing them together due to the fact that the air between the two smooth surfaces has been displaced. The only possible Van der Waals could be what is known as a London dispersion force which is a very weak type of temporary and spontaneous attraction common to all molecules.
That's a heck of a height gauge you have their John, worth a video in itself I think. They don't give those puppies away!
All good tips, I have the predecessor to the QuantuMike and like it. Very accurate and repeatable. I don't think you could go wrong with the latest they now have.
I believe I mentioned it previously, but FWIW with dial test indicators not all manufacturers use 0 degrees (ie parallel to the measuring face) as the datum for cosine error. Because they're so rarely used that way, some manufacturers use a value like 12 or 15 degrees as their calibrated angle. Mitutoyo is 0 degrees and for most purposes the difference probably won't be a show stopper, but just worth mentioning for completeness if anyone actually bothered to measure the cosine error.
I'd like to see an Arduino SPC project without using the Mitutoyo data cable ;) I was just looking at that the other day, and it doesn't look easy.
Finally, I can recommend anyone buy Mitutoyo or other quality metrology equipment only from trustworthy suppliers. Mitutoyo is a truly great brand, and I really like their gear, sadly so do the counterfeiters! There is a LOT of fake Mitutoyo equipment available from the usual online sources. It can sometimes be difficult to tell the fake from genuine product, yet there is no comparison in quality. It would be unfortunate to see more people being ripped off by buying counterfeit products and it's something we should try to stamp out.
Metrology is a favourite topic of mine, so I hope you're able to put up more from Mitutoyo.
Great info enjoy the class
The notch on the caliper depth bar comes in handy when you're measuring parts that don't have a sharp inside corner, but a radius/chamfer/weld root/whatever. Can't say this is *the* reason for it, but I use it for this *all* the time.
Nice video John. I don't think the rep mentioned it, but Mitutoyo has an excellent book on this subject. It's called the "Metrology Handbook. The Science of Measurement" The Mitutoyo part number is EDU102-10CA-2. (Mitutoyo Canada). I just bought a copy for the shop and it looks great. Lots of full colour figures and photos, and clear explanations. Cost here is $70Cdn (Approx $55 US)
I use a Quantumike everyday, and overall they are amazing. I have found myself a little wanting when I am trying to pick up a couple tenths on a telescoping bore gauge. The speed of the thimble can make is difficult to find the right feel. Either you end up over tightening and getting a small reading, or it is too loose and the reading is large. This is my only complaint, and really, it just means it takes me 30 seconds to find the reading, instead 15 seconds.
great video liked it a lot. But the ground top surfaces of a caliper john? Thats my most used meausuring technique. :)
Good stuff. This Old Tony did a video explaining cosine error recently. The sleeve trick is good, but be sure not to run it all the way down. Don Bailey over at Suburban Tool has a good video about micrometers.
I have a quantum micrometer. It's totally worth the extra. Makes taking measurements between different sized objects so much less of a chore.
Details, details.
They'll bite.
😊
Thanks,
John
Well, this video was awesome.
Well presented.
Dear Mitutoyo, this was time well spent, you will now be my go-to metrology supplier.
Give John some new toys or something!
The cohesion of the 2 gauge blocks: the atoms of the 2 blocks of the same material are coming so close to each other at clean and very flat surfaces that they literally ' forget ' that they are in 2 distinct blocks. They form & line up & attract as if they are in the grid of 1 & the same block. Interestingly it happens very fast but not complete. Obviously this process is ongoing to ' result ' in a ' state ' that is know as ' cold weld '. This is a wonderful process.
By the way: Gauge blocks are a Swedish invention ( Johansson 1901 )
I believe the gauge blocks "stick" together due to atmospheric pressure, you have essentially created a vacuum between the blocks by forcing the air out. The click you hear when separating them is the air rushing back in with a "slap" ..... Thanks for yet another great video, really enjoy the way you present the information in a clear understandable manner.
Nope, gauge blocks will wring together in vacuum also.
Air pressure at sea level is approximately 14.7 lbs per square inch, that could add some to the holding force. But the book Tool and Gage Work in the American Machinist Library series and written in 1907 shows what were very likely the very first set of C.E. Johansson's newly invented gauge blocks in America. They wrung two blocks together and attached them to a weigh scale then suspended a load below them equal to 22 lbs per square inch. The blocks remained wrung together proving there was more holding them together than air pressure alone. And as Jaako pointed out they still wring together in a vacuum. Van Der Waals force is likely the main holding effect since steel blocks left for long periods of time can literally start mico cold welding themselves together. That partial fusing of the metals surfaces may possibly start in a limited way as soon as the blocks are wrung together and add even further holding force. That's just my own rough guess though. If I'm right then it would be one more reason for wear showing up on highly used gauge blocks since atom sized areas could be getting removed each time the blocks are separated and slowly degrading the highly lapped surface finish.
When working in aircraft machine shop we had our tools checked every month. My dial calipers lasted about 6 months. So I had to buy new ones twice a year.
look up codys lab on youtube. he is doing experiments with ringing parts together under a vacuum to eliminate the air being squeezed out theory.
Love that channel
which video
Julius Jahn it's one of his newest ones.
Smooth blocks will fuse together permanently due to so-called cold welding when they are wrung together in vacuum.
Hi John
About micrometers, the salesman from mitutoyo talk about the important
thing to remember. allways keep the surface clean. He only talk about calipers.
After few measurements with micrometers, and the contact surface is not clean.
Just use a copypaper, and turn it so it squeeze on the paper, and then pull the micrometer
away from the paper. Now you have a clean contact point
Only problem is that copy paper and most papers are abrasive and over time will scratch the faces.
Great video! :-) May I please ask what you do to take shrinkage and expansion into account when temperature changes?
If you have ceramic blocks but are measuring steel in the summer at 118 deg F and later in the winter at 78 deg F?
Clamp calipers on a piece of paper, then slide out to clean measuring surfaces, learned that from my instructor at tech school.
Same works for micrometer.
Great tips here for hobby machinists!
Hi John, next time you talk to Mitutoyo ask them why they don't make a digital caliper with the display facing the top so you can read it while measuring parts in the lathe. It would sure beat having to stick your head in the lathe to see the display!
Most everyone I've seen do manufacture what are usually called "left handed calipers". Makes it easy to see, but I ditched them after a week as my hands and brain just didn't want to learn a differently working tool.
maybe its because nobody uses calipers on a lathe because theyre too inaccurate
Use a mirror prism
with both the depth bar and with the step feature instead of starting shallow and using the roller to extend the caliper a more reliable technique is to open your calipers further than the feature and as you measure the feature hold your calipers with a finger applying some pressure to the depth bar so it drags. when you get to depth you should have plenty of drag so that lifting the calipers away, they don't shift.
the notch on the end of the depth bar is corner relief for the radius that is always found in a counterbore or similar feature.
good job by both.
Wow great video can we get parts from them to repair our own toold?
The best way to challenge a measurement systems rep is to run a type 1 MSA (consistency test) on a measurand you supply. Have them take 30 repeat readings, then generate XmR charts with Probable Error (PE) and Cg, Cgk output test indices. Also determine the Bias of your checking against a known standard.
How does the Mitutoyo LH-600 compare to a traditional CMM or a used Faro arm? The costs of a CMM are higher, but the linear height gauge looks a bit limited in comparison. For practical matters, does the linear height gauge get one most of the way to what a CMM can do? Thank you
Who knew? The plural of stylus is styli. :-)
Very cool and informative video, John.
It's from Latin. Anything that ends in 'us' has a plural ending in 'i' - for example Radius / Radii - fungus / fungi. Unfortunately not all words ending in "us" are Latin, and therefore as a rule it is not terribly useful. But your-man from Mitutoyo is correct. It's styli :-)
Toyotas are nice but those Lexi...
I own 2 mitutoyo calipef 500-752-20 and both if I put a strong light from a flashlight in the top of the jaws(in the area where the jaws are milled thinner) i see the fine line of light passing through the jaws.
I have same issues with 1 tesa caliper .
With chinese calioer this issue not exist.
Both Tesa and Mitutoyo are original 100% ( no fake ) bought to dealer .
Are this Mitutoyo and Tesa caliper defective? or this make part of caliper tolerance?
John, I use the “Hold” button on my digital mikes to preserve the reading I just took, then I open the mike a bit so I can withdraw it from the part without torquing or springing the mike. Then I can hold it up in the light or closer to my eyes where I can read it easily, or jot down the reading, with no worries about changing the displayed reading accidentally.
This is most useful when you have to use the mike in an awkward location or position, or where the workpiece isn’t as well lit as it should be.
Ha! That seems obvious! Thanks.