Panel Discussion consisting of Bruce Ashford, Stephen Eccher, Malcolm Yarnell, and John Hammett talking about different things regarding the Anabaptists!
As a Mennonite, I thought they did a good job from the outside looking in. I think it is good to remember that Mennonites, Baptists, Anabaptists, and Heinz Tomato Sauce come in 57 varieties. Mennonites as a whole vary quite a bit. The largest group of Mennonites in the United States, which would be Mennonite Church USA has become quite liberal embracing LGBT+ and even apologizing for condemning homosexuality in the past. Our church and many others in our area left MCUSA several years ago. If a SBC member came to our church, they probably wouldn't notice a whole lot of difference from their home church. We even look the same for the most part. I think there are only a few older women that wear coverings any more. However, we do have a few theological differences.
I found The Radicals to be very inspiring, it's not Hollywood A-List movie but a sincere movie putting forth the Anabaptist faith in a sincere fashion. I am really disappointed in this Professors negative comments. To many of us Anabaptists that was a very deep source of inspiration.
It was Emperor Theodosius that proclaimed the penalty of death for those who "re-baptized" around 413 A.D. The Baptist/Anabaptist history goes much further back than the reformation.
I have found to be very interesting. I spent more than 10 years studying Christian history and denominations, I traveled many states coming from South America looking for the descendants of Christians in the past, and I found the anabaptist and really have a lot of respect for the original anabaptist, and I have spend some time with some former Amish and Menonites, and I have to agree that they keep a tradition but have lost the original fire that their ancestors had. Many hold to a tradition only no longer following the Bible, many others are scared of the world I guess because of the history of persecution, but they prefer to hid in the woods and not preach the gospel to the nations which I find lacking among them. But again that was the reason they were persecuted in Europe, they became wealthy and focus on living a nice life with their families.
Many of the Anabaptists totally lost their way over the last 30 years. I became a Mennonite pastor 35 years ago and am shocked how fast they have fallen. It began with the idea that "peace is the gospel." I fought this in every way I knew to do so. When peace becomes the gospel, then making peace with others becomes the highest good. So if making peace means accepting aberrant theologies and practices, so be it. Love becomes defined as acceptance and truth is sacrificed. I still hold Mennonite credentials, but have left MCUSA because it is more woke than Christian. It is a really sad end to what was a marvelous theology. You are correct that many have abandoned the bulk of scripture.
@@donaldwilliamfry yes, i never thought it that way, but you are right, leaving peacefully is something they shared to me a lot and keeping their families. But if the truth is compromised then there is no point. Bible says mercy and truth needs to go together. In the name of mercy and love many people justify evil, on the other side truth alone without mercy is cruelty. But mercy and truth iniquity is purged. I used to tell them many times, if Jesus and the apostles would only have focus on going to live in the woods and live peaceful and confortable lives they would have never been persecuted. That’s what the devil accomplished with the first Christian’s putting them in monasteries and that’s what he accomplished with anabaptist by scaring them and making them hide in the woods and focus on rules and stop sharing the gospel and living godly lives. I have been visiting the Bruderhof recently and trying to see if there could be a revival of truth among other groups, God wants us to learn from anabaptist what they got right, and what is in the scriptures that many have ignored or missed.
Ouch! It is a shame to slam Anabaptists with the behavior of one. Should be spoken of, but not in a theology discussion. Should have included own SBC in that slam.
Let me know how evangelicals have departed truth, and I will show you how the Anabapatists have departed from the truth. I say this as a very disillusioned Mennonite pastor.
As for Protestant churches, I came out of many years being a Protestant. Jesus said that if we build on HIS words we build on the Rock. In His Sermon in the Mount he taught some principles that are discarded by most Catholic or Protestant churches. We are commanded not to take our brother to court, not to pay evil for evil, love and do good to our enemy. Because we are new RACE of heavenly beings and we live by different moral code that is higher than human moral code. It is even higher than Old Testament moral Code. He brought us New teachy that only heavenly race can obey. We also are commanded not to remarry a divorced person. Yet it is common practice in Protestant world. We love enemy , so we can not kill enemy. So we can not do self defense killing because we are sheep sent in between wolves. We walk the Way of Jesus. He did not revenge for Himself but gave place to the anger of God. We also can not swear oaths. Protestant churches do all these things. But Early church rejected all these practices that are not accirdy to the teaching of Christ
@@natalijaasbjornsen8827 I look at the peace position and see a group that self-rightously believes that they are peacemaking better than any other group. This is in spite of the reality: 1. They tend to handle interpersonal conflict with denial, and passive-agressive interactions. There is more a spiritualizing of their basic hate bias. 2. Anabaptists for hundreds of years have accepted land that was given to them by various governments. Those same govenments within the prior 10 years just used their army to forceably move and even genocide the indigenous people who used to live there. Anabaptists knew this, but considered it an act of God. So...if it was an act of God to free up the land by use of the military, then why is other uses of the military not an act of God? And how can a "heavenly race" be okay with receiving stolen goods from people who were slaughtered so those goods can be received? 3. We are indeed sheep among wolves. More Christians - most of them not Anabaptist - have died for Christ in the last 100 years than died in the 1900 years combined. You see, sheep led to the slaughter is not just, or even primarily an Anabaptist thing. 4. Yet Romans 13 sets forth that government police are ordained by God in to keep order and subdue wrong-doers. So, would you call said ordained police if you were in danger? How about if your neighbor is in danger? There are very evil people out there. Your take on theology works well when there is general law and order. But when there is no government and gangs of thugs are killing and raping simply because they can, where does the peace position go? In Russia in the 1920's, it led to many Anabaptist communities forming militia to keep these evil forces in check. So...if there is no government giving you a safe place to be radical peacemakers, how would YOU control the evil?
@@donaldwilliamfry I was a Southern Baptist for years and years. I can definitely (sadly, but sincerely) tell you where Baptists have fallen away from some very important Biblical teachings. (They baptize extremely young children, Divorce and Remarriage is prevalent, They go to war and are very much involved in politics, Faith without works, meaning so many say a sinner's prayer and then go on living just like the world with the only major change is going to church on Sundays, immodest clothing is acceptable, etc. I don't say these things to be critical. I care deeply. Can you share your concerns with your Mennonite church? Btw, I'm not Mennonite, but am a part of a church similar. Thanks for sharing. 💗
The Baptist denomination might have began as anabaptist but they are not anabaptist they have violated and have changed the original Tenets of their doctrines of faith. The Baptist denomination has adopted worldly ideas that are not in scripture or the ante nicene writers
Baptists do not trace their origins to the Anabaptists. There is no meaningful historical connection between the two. Just because they both adhere to a form of believer’s baptism does not mean they are the same. Baptists are a movement that began in 17th century England not 16th century Switzerland.. Baptists come out of the Puritan and Separatist movement in England. They differ with the Anabaptists on a number of theological issues. You are right the founders of the Baptist movement would not recognize much of what is going on in the contemporary American Baptist tradition in America.
Harken then thine ear unto the voice of Tradition, for I have not entered into thy life to replace the Scriptures, nor do I wish to. But I beseech thee that thou wouldst seek the word of the Lord, to see if I be based upon biblical principles or if I be sheer Tradition. Forthwith thou must know where I be from, for thou dost need to know the difference between the two. If I be but sheer Tradition, then ye must see Scripture and Tradition dwell together in unity. And if ye find that we may not, then remove me from thee. For I do not wan to withhold thee from the wisdom of God! But I would rather assist thee in abiding in it. -A. Random Lattin
Being a certain religious people or name is NOT impressive to God HE says He will NOT share HIS GLORY with another. He wants us to hear Paul's gospel given to him by Jesus himself. It was a MYSTERY not known before
I like theology to much to be an anabaptist but I hate modernism too much to be in a mainline denomination. And yes, I know I’m generalizing. I did that on purpose
There are many groups who are called Conservative Anabaptists- Conservative Mennoninites, Amish,( Old Order and New Order) Hutterites, old German Baptists and Charity, as well as other Plain Anabaptist groups, that are unaffiliated. There is Mennonite USA+ split off and gone wild liberal. But they are small margin. Please do your research better. In Conservative Anabaptist they still continue Anabaptist traditions and practices!
It seems Anabaptists have a tendency to either go totally into "peace is the gospel," which puts them on the road to liberalism, or to get into communalism, which mutes their potential witness and makes them more of a novelty than a force for God. I also have seen a pattern of Anabaptists taking a firm stance against war, yet being willing to occupy land taken from other people by the military and given to them. On a more individual level, many Anabaptists will take a firm stance against any use of force and call police evil, yet are willing to call police to intervene in their situations. All of this seems incongruent to me. I doubt you will answer, as Anabaptists rarely do, or if they do they do so in a condescending way, but I will keep throwing out these chances to engage in hopes someone gets back to me.
Well, I will try to answer some of your concerns. There are only few communities that live communally. They chose to do it this way and have everything in common.Most Conservative Anabaptists though are owners of small business of some sort. And many are doing quite well here in Holmes County Ohio. We just believe that as a church we have to consider our members as part of the family. Because Jesus taught that the world will see that we love each other and know that we are His disciples. So when something happens to our members or even to our neighbors here, non -membrrs, the church takes it on themselves to help in any way they can. I think this is how we supposed to be if we claim that we are Christians. As for liberalism. You are partly right. In 1970ties many Mennonites came out of us to become "modern". They are now called Mennonites USA So they live like many Christian church people in the USA. The only thing they kept is non-resistance. But they went further. They started being politically active and some even joined social Justice agenda. Some of their churches even allow gays to join them. Conservative Anabaptists stay away from any kind of politics. Being part of a different Kingdom , that is Kingdom of Christ, we have different Constitution- Sermon on the Mount( Matthew , chapters 5-7). So we live by it. At the same time we are commanded to honor the earthly Government, pay our taxes, honor the king, respect and obey authorities. I do not know Anabaptists who would resist the police or army. They are Gods servants out there to enforce some order in the fallen world. And yes, police are there to protect us. That is the reason we pay taxes. And not only that. We are commanded not to be pacifists but rather actively pray first of all for our authorities so we have peaceful life. We have to pray for elections as we have power. Yes, we can not kill any humans because we are commanded to love even our enemy. But we believe that prayer is powerful. God hears the prayers of the saints. Hope I answered some of your concerns. Some of our people vote. Depends on the church. Because our churches are multiple and gave certain difference in practice. .
@@natalijaasbjornsen8827 Sorry, I missed this and responded to the earlier post. I understand what you are saying about the power of prayer. I fully know Anabaptist people and the nuances of the many fragments of Anabaptists. I still have the sticking point on accepting police and their position while resolutely refusing self-defense and the defense of those unable to defend themselves. What is the difference between hiring those who defend you and doing so yourself. This seems more like Luther's two kingdom theology than Anabaptist theology.
Because of someone attacks me and I die, I know where I am going. The person who attacks me has sinned and if I attack him I will not love him. Because if he dies he is going to eternity unrepentant. I am not God to take life. Yes, for an earthly human teaching of Christ sounds foolish. Only people who have different heavenly nature can understand His teaching. We are aliens and have different nature. We live according to the Law of Christ.
How do we honor (let alone obey) someone who announces they will steal an election, then goes forward to do so, then sets out to destroy jobs and the family? Not only that, but sets forth to destroy our food, water, air, and us!
Hard for me to believe that true Christianity is to be found among those who are willing to torture and kill their opponents.
A good person to talk to is John Martin from Shippinsburg PA. He is a Mennonite and a historian of Anabaptism.
As a Mennonite, I thought they did a good job from the outside looking in. I think it is good to remember that Mennonites, Baptists, Anabaptists, and Heinz Tomato Sauce come in 57 varieties. Mennonites as a whole vary quite a bit. The largest group of Mennonites in the United States, which would be Mennonite Church USA has become quite liberal embracing LGBT+ and even apologizing for condemning homosexuality in the past. Our church and many others in our area left MCUSA several years ago. If a SBC member came to our church, they probably wouldn't notice a whole lot of difference from their home church. We even look the same for the most part. I think there are only a few older women that wear coverings any more. However, we do have a few theological differences.
I found The Radicals to be very inspiring, it's not Hollywood A-List movie but a sincere movie putting forth the Anabaptist faith in a sincere fashion. I am really disappointed in this Professors negative comments. To many of us Anabaptists that was a very deep source of inspiration.
It was Emperor Theodosius that proclaimed the penalty of death for those who "re-baptized" around 413 A.D. The Baptist/Anabaptist history goes much further back than the reformation.
I have found to be very interesting. I spent more than 10 years studying Christian history and denominations, I traveled many states coming from South America looking for the descendants of Christians in the past, and I found the anabaptist and really have a lot of respect for the original anabaptist, and I have spend some time with some former Amish and Menonites, and I have to agree that they keep a tradition but have lost the original fire that their ancestors had. Many hold to a tradition only no longer following the Bible, many others are scared of the world I guess because of the history of persecution, but they prefer to hid in the woods and not preach the gospel to the nations which I find lacking among them. But again that was the reason they were persecuted in Europe, they became wealthy and focus on living a nice life with their families.
Many of the Anabaptists totally lost their way over the last 30 years. I became a Mennonite pastor 35 years ago and am shocked how fast they have fallen. It began with the idea that "peace is the gospel." I fought this in every way I knew to do so. When peace becomes the gospel, then making peace with others becomes the highest good. So if making peace means accepting aberrant theologies and practices, so be it. Love becomes defined as acceptance and truth is sacrificed. I still hold Mennonite credentials, but have left MCUSA because it is more woke than Christian. It is a really sad end to what was a marvelous theology. You are correct that many have abandoned the bulk of scripture.
@@donaldwilliamfry yes, i never thought it that way, but you are right, leaving peacefully is something they shared to me a lot and keeping their families. But if the truth is compromised then there is no point. Bible says mercy and truth needs to go together. In the name of mercy and love many people justify evil, on the other side truth alone without mercy is cruelty. But mercy and truth iniquity is purged. I used to tell them many times, if Jesus and the apostles would only have focus on going to live in the woods and live peaceful and confortable lives they would have never been persecuted. That’s what the devil accomplished with the first Christian’s putting them in monasteries and that’s what he accomplished with anabaptist by scaring them and making them hide in the woods and focus on rules and stop sharing the gospel and living godly lives. I have been visiting the Bruderhof recently and trying to see if there could be a revival of truth among other groups, God wants us to learn from anabaptist what they got right, and what is in the scriptures that many have ignored or missed.
@@mundolinux2250 Well stated. Thanks!
@@donaldwilliamfryThere are conservative Anabaptist groups that are not ashamed to stand for truth.
Ouch! It is a shame to slam Anabaptists with the behavior of one. Should be spoken of, but not in a theology discussion. Should have included own SBC in that slam.
Anabaptist movement has been growing , and many people abandon evangelical movement who departed from the truth in most cases.
Let me know how evangelicals have departed truth, and I will show you how the Anabapatists have departed from the truth. I say this as a very disillusioned Mennonite pastor.
As for Protestant churches, I came out of many years being a Protestant. Jesus said that if we build on HIS words we build on the Rock. In His Sermon in the Mount he taught some principles that are discarded by most Catholic or Protestant churches. We are commanded not to take our brother to court, not to pay evil for evil, love and do good to our enemy. Because we are new RACE of heavenly beings and we live by different moral code that is higher than human moral code. It is even higher than Old Testament moral Code. He brought us New teachy that only heavenly race can obey. We also are commanded not to remarry a divorced person. Yet it is common practice in Protestant world. We love enemy , so we can not kill enemy. So we can not do self defense killing because we are sheep sent in between wolves. We walk the Way of Jesus. He did not revenge for Himself but gave place to the anger of God. We also can not swear oaths. Protestant churches do all these things. But Early church rejected all these practices that are not accirdy to the teaching of Christ
@@natalijaasbjornsen8827 I look at the peace position and see a group that self-rightously believes that they are peacemaking better than any other group. This is in spite of the reality:
1. They tend to handle interpersonal conflict with denial, and passive-agressive interactions. There is more a spiritualizing of their basic hate bias.
2. Anabaptists for hundreds of years have accepted land that was given to them by various governments. Those same govenments within the prior 10 years just used their army to forceably move and even genocide the indigenous people who used to live there. Anabaptists knew this, but considered it an act of God. So...if it was an act of God to free up the land by use of the military, then why is other uses of the military not an act of God? And how can a "heavenly race" be okay with receiving stolen goods from people who were slaughtered so those goods can be received?
3. We are indeed sheep among wolves. More Christians - most of them not Anabaptist - have died for Christ in the last 100 years than died in the 1900 years combined. You see, sheep led to the slaughter is not just, or even primarily an Anabaptist thing.
4. Yet Romans 13 sets forth that government police are ordained by God in to keep order and subdue wrong-doers. So, would you call said ordained police if you were in danger? How about if your neighbor is in danger? There are very evil people out there. Your take on theology works well when there is general law and order. But when there is no government and gangs of thugs are killing and raping simply because they can, where does the peace position go? In Russia in the 1920's, it led to many Anabaptist communities forming militia to keep these evil forces in check. So...if there is no government giving you a safe place to be radical peacemakers, how would YOU control the evil?
@@donaldwilliamfry I was a Southern Baptist for years and years. I can definitely (sadly, but sincerely) tell you where Baptists have fallen away from some very important Biblical teachings. (They baptize extremely young children, Divorce and Remarriage is prevalent, They go to war and are very much involved in politics, Faith without works, meaning so many say a sinner's prayer and then go on living just like the world with the only major change is going to church on Sundays, immodest clothing is acceptable, etc. I don't say these things to be critical. I care deeply. Can you share your concerns with your Mennonite church? Btw, I'm not Mennonite, but am a part of a church similar. Thanks for sharing. 💗
@@natalijaasbjornsen8827 Please read my comment to Natalija Asbjornsen below.
The Baptist denomination might have began as anabaptist but they are not anabaptist they have violated and have changed the original Tenets of their doctrines of faith. The Baptist denomination has adopted worldly ideas that are not in scripture or the ante nicene writers
Baptists do not trace their origins to the Anabaptists. There is no meaningful historical connection between the two. Just because they both adhere to a form of believer’s baptism does not mean they are the same. Baptists are a movement that began in 17th century England not 16th century Switzerland.. Baptists come out of the Puritan and Separatist movement in England. They differ with the Anabaptists on a number of theological issues. You are right the founders of the Baptist movement would not recognize much of what is going on in the contemporary American Baptist tradition in America.
Very interesting. Thank you.
Harken then thine ear unto the voice of Tradition, for I have not entered into thy life to replace the Scriptures, nor do I wish to. But I beseech thee that thou wouldst seek the word of the Lord, to see if I be based upon biblical principles or if I be sheer Tradition. Forthwith thou must know where I be from, for thou dost need to know the difference between the two. If I be but sheer Tradition, then ye must see Scripture and Tradition dwell together in unity. And if ye find that we may not, then remove me from thee. For I do not wan to withhold thee from the wisdom of God! But I would rather assist thee in abiding in it. -A. Random Lattin
Being a certain religious people or name is NOT impressive to God
HE says He will NOT share HIS GLORY with another. He wants us to hear Paul's gospel given to him by Jesus himself.
It was a MYSTERY not known before
Anabaptists in no way relate to Muenster movement. He started well but he ended up being heretic.
I like theology to much to be an anabaptist but I hate modernism too much to be in a mainline denomination. And yes, I know I’m generalizing. I did that on purpose
There are many groups who are called Conservative Anabaptists- Conservative Mennoninites, Amish,( Old Order and New Order) Hutterites, old German Baptists and Charity, as well as other Plain Anabaptist groups, that are unaffiliated. There is Mennonite USA+ split off and gone wild liberal. But they are small margin. Please do your research better. In Conservative Anabaptist they still continue Anabaptist traditions and practices!
It seems Anabaptists have a tendency to either go totally into "peace is the gospel," which puts them on the road to liberalism, or to get into communalism, which mutes their potential witness and makes them more of a novelty than a force for God. I also have seen a pattern of Anabaptists taking a firm stance against war, yet being willing to occupy land taken from other people by the military and given to them. On a more individual level, many Anabaptists will take a firm stance against any use of force and call police evil, yet are willing to call police to intervene in their situations. All of this seems incongruent to me. I doubt you will answer, as Anabaptists rarely do, or if they do they do so in a condescending way, but I will keep throwing out these chances to engage in hopes someone gets back to me.
Well, I will try to answer some of your concerns. There are only few communities that live communally. They chose to do it this way and have everything in common.Most Conservative Anabaptists though are owners of small business of some sort. And many are doing quite well here in Holmes County Ohio. We just believe that as a church we have to consider our members as part of the family. Because Jesus taught that the world will see that we love each other and know that we are His disciples. So when something happens to our members or even to our neighbors here, non -membrrs, the church takes it on themselves to help in any way they can. I think this is how we supposed to be if we claim that we are Christians. As for liberalism. You are partly right. In 1970ties many Mennonites came out of us to become "modern". They are now called Mennonites USA So they live like many Christian church people in the USA. The only thing they kept is non-resistance. But they went further. They started being politically active and some even joined social Justice agenda. Some of their churches even allow gays to join them. Conservative Anabaptists stay away from any kind of politics. Being part of a different Kingdom , that is Kingdom of Christ, we have different Constitution- Sermon on the Mount( Matthew , chapters 5-7). So we live by it. At the same time we are commanded to honor the earthly Government, pay our taxes, honor the king, respect and obey authorities. I do not know Anabaptists who would resist the police or army. They are Gods servants out there to enforce some order in the fallen world. And yes, police are there to protect us. That is the reason we pay taxes. And not only that. We are commanded not to be pacifists but rather actively pray first of all for our authorities so we have peaceful life. We have to pray for elections as we have power. Yes, we can not kill any humans because we are commanded to love even our enemy. But we believe that prayer is powerful. God hears the prayers of the saints. Hope I answered some of your concerns. Some of our people vote. Depends on the church. Because our churches are multiple and gave certain difference in practice. .
@@natalijaasbjornsen8827 Sorry, I missed this and responded to the earlier post. I understand what you are saying about the power of prayer. I fully know Anabaptist people and the nuances of the many fragments of Anabaptists.
I still have the sticking point on accepting police and their position while resolutely refusing self-defense and the defense of those unable to defend themselves. What is the difference between hiring those who defend you and doing so yourself. This seems more like Luther's two kingdom theology than Anabaptist theology.
Because of someone attacks me and I die, I know where I am going. The person who attacks me has sinned and if I attack him I will not love him. Because if he dies he is going to eternity unrepentant. I am not God to take life. Yes, for an earthly human teaching of Christ sounds foolish. Only people who have different heavenly nature can understand His teaching. We are aliens and have different nature. We live according to the Law of Christ.
How do we honor (let alone obey) someone who announces they will steal an election, then goes forward to do so, then sets out to destroy jobs and the family? Not only that, but sets forth to destroy our food, water, air, and us!
It's sad that these teachers have to read from their phones rather than know the scriptures from heart.
I trust my eyes more than my memory.