Just finished a campaign at 20th level. My Druid only ever used Foresight on our Fighter. It was really helpful, especially since he had been prone to failing wisdom saves or other saves that took him out of the combat or turned him against us. While I would have loved to use others, the foresight was a significant buff that our party needed. Once he got that buff, combined with Indominable, he never got turned us on again. Considering that this fighter had a Cloak of Displacement and Wave...we did NOT want him turned on us. That's a quick way to TPK the rest of the party in one to two rounds. Did I want to use Shape change? REALLY BADLY. But -- as a 20th level Druid, I was already able to wild shape. Keeping our fighter on the correct target saved our party frequently. Keeping our fighter standing because of the advantage on saving throws, super helpful. Negating disadvantage -- optimal. Keeping him in the surprise round, critical. Foresight was basically my permacast spell True Resurrection -- used once. Our wizard got killed in a trap in the Tomb of Annihilation, and we were absolutely not able to get to his body. This one we needed. So yes, we needed it.
If you're willing to devote the preparation slot to it, Foresight seems like a GREAT rest tricking spell to have, for any days that you don't spend a 9th level slot
The main advantage of True Res over Res, as far as I know, is that you can True Res doesn't need a body, so you can True Res a party member who has been disintegrated or whose body was unrecoverable.
Shapechange into different kinds of dragon each round and use their breath weapons. Yep, clearly balanced. Why seige a city using Storm of Vengeance when you can instead turn into a storm of dragons?
@@stranger6822 a city's defenses can't potentially* dispel or break the concentration of a storm cloud though. [* acknowledging that adult red dragons have +13 con saves]. Also SoV is a 360 radius, so that's a 720' diameter, and 5,000 high column aoe.
Thanks so much for seeing this through to the end. My githzerai druid will probably never get a chance to use these, but I appreciate you going through all levels in such depth!
There is one circumstance in which you require true resurrection to bring back player characters: When their original body is lost or destroyed (say, a disintegrate spell) or turned into an undead. Not very common, but it's the only spell that can resurrect a person regardless of circumstance within that 200 year limit. True resurrection also doesn't have the same penalties that raise dead/ressurection have. So true resurrection is useful if you need someone to get into action right that very second. Doesn't change the orange rating. But there's a few more notable circumstances where this spell has use than mentioned in the video.
yea my group gets some mileage out of true resurrect... geneeraly playing campaigns to high level. My DM, and friend, will imprison souls or hide bodies to deny a resurrect or raise... i can't remember what hiding bodies is good for. Conversely our party would each have a strand of hair from the other party members (in a vial of course) , to enable a resurrect (maybe that's only true for the lower level version, having forgetfulness atm). Still a good idea though.
In defense of SoV, I think thematically it’s a lot of fun being a Druid that summons a massive storm that can wipe out an army. And, as you mentioned, if you need to take out a horde of 1hp minions or the lich’s army you of skeletons, it works well.
I agree that True Resurrection should be orange, but when the right circumstances come to pass, then it can be one of the best summoning spells in the game; imagine if Bak'zalnol'del the Silver Greatwyrm (good, immensely powerful) died 150 years ago, and you know about it, and you're about to fight the BBEG... free dragon ally (note: its not really free because Bak'zalnol'del probably wants his share of the treasure after this whole thing is over, and also you spent 25000 GP reviving him lmao) but honestly how often is a DM telling you about all these powerful good-aligned dragons who died less than 200 years ago? thats why its orange
I like the idea of a legendary figure that can be "summoned" in times of need, and must be "summoned" at least once every 200 years. Turns out the "summoning" ritual is a True Resurrection as a unique ritual and the figure is a Zealot barbarian that once the need is done, kills themself so they can be resurrected again in the future.
Players should have access to "DM" spells. Being able to do vary "DM-ey" things is vary important. Not all dnd play is just going from dungeon to dungeon. Players that stay in one spot for long periods of time heavily benefit to "DM" spells. Saying players shouldn't have these spells is vary close mind. (To be clear in normal combat storm of vengeance isn't that useful, I'm not arguing with the rating. I just don't agree with the view that players shouldn't have access to it at all)
True Resurrection, to my knowledge, is the only way to bring back a PC that was Disintegrated, of which I have nearly been a victim of a few times. Still not something you would prepare for an adventuring day, but it's good that more than one class can prepare it.
Having run Storm of Vengeance as a DM spell (and having the effects stack each round). My players mostly brushed it off. I mean. By round 5, 16d6 damage to 3 targets per round was no joke. I think I downed an Ancient Dragon by round 7 with it. I've since been told that the effects aren't supposed to stack each round. I don't care, it's how I will always run it.
Do you want to know what I like the most about your channel? You finish your series. I see the first episode of a new series and I KNOW you are going to continue it. Congratulations!
There was a cool plot element in an old 3E sourcebook that had a religion whose saint and leader was wholly devoured by a demon, and he was the only member of their church who’d been able to cast True Resurrection, so the great quest around which they’d assembled was to either recover the demon so they’d have something resembling a body part or somehow level another member to 17.
I think the main design issue with shapechange is a similar issue to druid's wildshape. Do we really want players paging through all the DM books mining for monsters, finding out what all the monsters weaknesses and resistances are? I don't think it's a spell I would personally take for that reason--I certainly don't know what all the high level monsters do, and wouldn't want to spoil the surprise.
kinda the point of playing a druid. Druids are connected to nature and they would know the creatures they transform into. That's part of why they have to have seen them
The best thing about Foresight (and other non-concentration spells with duration 8h) is, that you can cast them right before the end of long rest, so you start your adventuring day with all spell slots, but one of your martials has advantage on everything for 8 hours!
Thanks very much for this series. I never feel like anyone gives respect to the Druid spell list. Now I hope more people will respect it and not just ask how it works with the Moon Druid.
Shape Change is definitely more versatile, but having played a character using Foresight, it's amazing. Like playing D&D in God Mode. No concentration and just makes you better at everything. Shape Change has one drawback in that it can dramatically slow down play for groups not intimately familiar with the rules and the monster manual, or while the player searches for "the perfect shape" for this situation.
@@secretlyditto7716 Foresight says it ends immediately if you cast it again before the duration ends. You'd need twinned spell with its hefty point cost to get 2 people.
A succinct and sincere conclusion, thank you Chris. These become available around the time you can cast in wildshape, which changes the preparations for every circle if they want to fly for hours.
I like the pre-errata storm of vengeance. if i’m not mistaken, the effects used to stack back then. 6 bolts of lightning every turn already would be much better.
I can see the value in Foresight by helping out a Hexblade, Paladin, and/or Rogue teammate with constant Advantage who may be crit fishing - especially with the Elven Accuracy+Sharpshooter/GWM feats.
except crit-fishing is probably the worst way to build damage, especially when you can get a better and more consistent result from the same caster using hold person or hold monster on the target instead.
and at least with simple the on demand triple advantage you're not dependent on allies casting hold person/monster against every enemy you want to attack [and then banking on that enemy having chronically bad saving throws/no legendary resistances/paralyzed immunity -etc.]
Thank you for making this druid series. I was never personally interested in the druid class but might make a decent utility caster after watching your spell series.
Great video series. Even when I played a moon Druid, I relied on spells a lot because I ended up in a party heavy on melee characters. I enjoyed the versatility of the Druid spells.
Storm of vengeance says it all in its title. If a Druid wants vengeance on a town or a city, this is his choice. Same for a Druid waging a guerrilla campaign. It doesn't do much damage to objects or buildings, which is probably good, unless you are wanting vengeance or are a guerrilla.
Shapechange is insanely powerful, but I worry about the concentration tag for combat uses when we are talking about your one and only 9th level spell cast in a day. Sure you can do something amazing, and then any smart opponent will do everything possible to make you drop concentration. At least Foresight is safe from that.
Our Necromancer tried to resurrect his wife who is now in the state between life and dead, and we learned a while ago that my druid is able to cast true resurrection when he is at higher levels. It's his characters goal to bring his wife back, so I think that is a good reason to select true resurrection when I can.
Actually thats a good point, some spells could just be in the dmg or some similar product. Things that is possibke for a caster of the relevant level, just not really meant for players.
Idk why Druids don’t get as many spells as Cleric despite being a divine caster. You’d think there would be a spell that would create biome, change the climate in an area, or cause a forest to appear out if nowhere. The only “druidic” nineth level spells we get are Storm of Vengeance and Shapechange.
The subclass doesn't exist anymore, but the UA twilight druid always made me think about earthquake/storm_of_vengence. +10d10 to earthquakes or all the storm's damage was something that sounded monstrous
I'd say that Storm of Vengeance, while still Red, is borderline orange simply for the enormous area of effect. Sure the damage is single digit d6's, but with an area of over 400,000 sq feet, you could easily deal that 1d6 of acid damage on Round 2 into several thousands of d6 worth of damage. You mention besieging a castle, but if you're the one under siege by a large army of minions, you could severely hamper the encroaching force by the time they arrive at your doors. Granted, this is going a bit into war-gaming territory
Playing defense against a siege with high level characters is so much fun. Have your party in charge of evacuation/fortification and then be the last line of defense against a bunch of minions. Give your characters 1d4 days of preparation then have waves of different enemies crash against them. Wizards with prep can do all kinds of shenanigans. The absolute decimation of a sorcerer distance spelling meteor swarm. The meat grinder of a cavalier fighter guarding the single entrance. So many ways to have characters be epic.
Shape change worst 3 things that It can be counterspelled, it can be dispelled and it is concentration. all of these three makes it a real bummer when it happened. AND it takes an action to set up so there is a turn you wont be do anything but take damage and potentially drop that spell. at this level its not out of the realm of possibilities to take like 60 to 90 damage in one damage source . like no way you can concentrate after that. For sight at least you will be able to get some use of it during the day.
Replying to a year old comment I know, but for concentration you can shapechange into something with legendary resistances. For the 1 round setup, shapechange does have a duration of 1 hour so if you know you’re about to get into an encounter you can cast it before hand. You are still susceptible to dispel though, which sucks. Granted it would need to be a lvl 9 dispel to negate it without a check. But even then having your ultimate once per day spell dispelled on a 30% chance feels bad. Only thing you can do is have another caster with counter-spell in your party.
True resurrection would get you back someone who lost their brain to an intellect devourer, although dm might allow regeneration/raise dead combo Also useful if you want to bring back a PC who died from mummy rot, disintegrate, or other effects where you are utterly destroyed.
I've been pretty unimpressed with cleric and druid 8-9th level spells. Once you hit 13th level i think there is a good argument to be had for multiclassing into a different full spell caster. Or even a druid diving into cleric or vice versa.
if you're going to 20, you do not want to give up unlimited wildshape for Druid -- but if your campaign isn't going to make it there -- absolutely multiclass
@@catstandish the archdruid feature is ok but if you are not a moon druid it will open a PC up to a lot of instant kills like disintegrate and power word kill. The real question is whether having that one ability for a session or two at 20th level is a even trade for wizard or cleric 1-7 and the front loaded class features that come with that choice.
Archdruid could be be good for a Spores druid as well [at will 80 THP] and maybe wildfire [minion resummoning] but ya, for most others it's just improved subtle spell.
@@elliotbryant3459 Wildfire Druid -- yep, I kept that Wildfire Spirit up like crazy.... and it's got a lot of amazing traits that took me a while to use. My favorite? I'd keep it within move distance of our tank. He'd attack something hideous, then the spirit would move forward and teleport him to somewhere else to make the thing actually have to move (if it could). But yeah, that's just half health summoning at your command
Why wouldn't Storm of Vengeance just combine all the effects in one round? I mean it's 9th level, let us shape the spots that are subject to the spells effect each round, so it's remotely useful, then it would still be worse than Prismatic Wall.
interesting.... Since we're still technically on board for our campaign...... I might pull that with my DM in our Discord Roll Play :D Granted, I already have a Wish just sitting around that I don't know what to do with.
Long time follower here: I’d suggest you to condense these high level episodes together, it’s a bit disappointing to wait a week for a 4 spells video 🥲 your ranking and evaluation stuff is really well done and interesting but builds are more entertaining to me, thanks for your work, I love both the channel and the discord!
@@TreantmonksTemple just because you don't need to prepare it doesn't mean that it's not a good spell, though. That's the beauty of being a prepared caster. Any spell on your list that's only useful in specific situation suddenly vastly improves, because you'll be able to have it for when that situation comes up. Seems a bit odd to rate it orange when the rules of prepared casters make situational spells that work retroactively better.
@@TreantmonksTemple i agree with the orange rating, since druids prepare spells everyday it is not something i would prepare unless there was a disintegrated PC.
A question regarding Shapechange. Regarding it's restriction on accessing using a monsters "spellcasting trait" does this effect the monsters in Fizbans who have the Spellcasting Action?
cleric and druid's prepared casting kind of bites them in the ass as far as 9th level spell options go, only having 5 or 4 respectively, with only 2 each that would have practical regular use.
Love to see Storm of Vengeance getting put in its place. Most people have no opinion on it, which is fine, but it seems like EVERYONE else supremely overrates it.
I know that storm of vengeance requires concentration and stuff, but it makes me wonder, does it do this damage automatically each round. So I could be launching spells at them as this storm is going on. This would make this a really good spell, especially for dealing a lot of damage to one thing in the least amount of rounds.
I think Foresight is really, really overrated. On paper, the effect is great; amazing, even. And it's not even concentration. But, when you cast the spell, you really have to ask yourself, who are you actually casting it on, and what are you *really* getting out of it? Are you casting it on the battlemaster fighter, who's going to be opening up his 8 attack rounds with a trip attack to get advantage on everything anyways? The gloomstalker ranger, who's going to be permanently invisible and already making every attack with advantage? The Barbarian, who already has reckless attack? What about the Rogue, who's almost always going to be attacking from stealth or using Steady Aim anyways? The thing about advantage is that it doesn't stack. And most high level martial builds not only usually already have ways of giving themselves advantage, but there are a plethora of other lower level spells that put conditions on enemies that make them vulnerable to attacks with advantage too. In many, many scenarios, this aspect of the spell is going to be wasted. But maybe, you aren't using it for the attack rolls, and just really want to get someone to succeed on a skill check for some reason! This is obviously a bad use compared to a cleric just casting guidance on someone for a cantrip slot, and glibness works better for being an effective counterspeller, but if you ever really need someone to do something important, you usually have someone with expertise for that skill already in your party. Or a rogue, who will just instantly succeed at this level anyways. And this is all assuming that its something that can't just be automatically solved with a lower level spell. Needless to say, skills are the least important part. And, obviously, you've got the saving throws in there as well, which is probably the best part of the spell. But you're sacrificing a 9th level spell slot to do this, and it only effects a single person. And advantage, last I checked, gives about an average of 3.5 to your roll. So, for an entire 9 spell levels, you're giving one person an additional point to their saving throws over what they would get on average from the bless spell. Which is a level 1 spell. And can affect your entire party. Coincidentally, bless also increases your party's attack rolls, and because its an integer bonus, it actually stacks with advantage, making it even more useful than foresight when it comes to boosting your allies damage in the majority of scenarios. Did I mention that it can affect your entire party? To summarize, the pros and cons of using foresight compared to bless pros: -It lasts for your adventuring day instead of one fight -Your target will never be surprised -it's non-concentration, allowing you to concentrate on other spells at the same time -1 more point cons: -You only get to cast 9th level spells once per day -Advantage doesn't stack, making this mostly effective for characters that probably weren't already heavy-hitters -it affects one third of the targets bless does at level 1 -doesn't synergize well with other spells for teamplay -its a 9th level spell If we go strictly by the numbers, assuming a cleric is able to cast 1st level spells as much as they want by level 17, bless is going to be at least 2.14x as effective during each fight. And that's even assuming the target didn't get advantage to their rolls before foresight was cast upon them. Even if we take into consideration that the cleric might be going last, it litteraly only takes a single round of being used for bless to catch up and be more effective than foresight. I personally feel like there's a clear winner here, but the fact that a 9th level spell is comparable to a 1st level spell in the first place should be a really, really strong indicator that something's wrong. It's a trap option that technically works as a catch-all, but there are vastly superior options for specific scenarios and I feel like it makes you think that its better than it is just because it doesn't deal damage and thus feels like a "smart" spell. Even with a bias in its favor, I feel like it should be rated purple at best. I personally view it as only being decent when you know you already have a party that never gets advantage on their attack rolls anyways, which makes it situational, which means orange. The saving throws help, but only by 1 point compared to a 1st level spell.
(This *is* a Druid video.... Druids don't, as a rule, get Bless. For a Cleric, yes, this would be a valid argument -- but it is not for a Druid.... and if your party's healer is a Druid, there won't be a Cleric in the mix.)
@@catstandish regardless of whether or not they themselves have bless, the fact of the matter is that you're sacrificing a 9th level spell slot to cast something comparable to another caster's 1st level spell slot. If a caster with foresight on their spell list acknowledges that and thinks its a good spell to choose regardless, they should probably re-evaluate the reason why they picked their class.
@@ihave2cows you cleric ally would also be sacrificing their action and concentration at the start of every initiative [and again when ever their concentration is broken] to accomplish this [so much for initiative advantage, passive perception and your first round attack/saving throw boosts] -and the cleric is now nothing more than a bless-bot. -And then there's the whole enemies have disadvantage on their attacks against you aspect.
@@ihave2cows #1 Bless IS a Concentration spell. #2. Not all parties have a Cleric. #3 Not every fighter has a good Wisdom score and when you start messing with monsters that can Control your Tank, you do what you can to keep the damage dealer dealing damage to the enemy, not your paty. Bless is worthless if there's no one to cast it. And , to be quite honest, there's more to playing a caster than the ability to cast Bless.
@@ihave2cows Foresight is superior to Bless because of how it is can be used. If your party has one Tank, you need the damage dealer dealing damage to the enemy not the party, and when the enemy has the ability to control your Tank on a failed save, then you need to use any and all resources at your command to make sure that does not happen. I just finished a campaign where I played a 20th level Wildfire Druid. Foresight was perpetually on our Tank because: Our fighter had an AC of 23 with a Cloak of Displacement -- which means every hit against him was at disadvantage. He also had Wave, which is a sentient Trident that will suck out half your health on a crit. Two crits from Wave and you're toast. Translation: we did not want our Tank coming after us. (Happened one too many times before Foresight came on line) Add to that, and this is something Bless cannot do : Every single one of his attacks is at advantage. So you have a 20th level fighter with four attacks, who Crits when he rolls 18 wielding a weapon that just needs two Crits to take out a monster. So what does Foresight do? 1) He's never surprised 2) He gets advantage on every attack, making it more likely to Crit Fish 3) All checks at advantage 4) All Saving throws at advantage. When you combine that with a Cloak that meant that all attacks were at Disadvantage, you get a beast. He took out a Tarrask in ONE ROUND. Do you think we want that coming after US?! Bless will not do anything like that.
So after having seen all of these spells all I can say is: Wow. Druid spells really suck. XD So many reds and oranges, a few greens and fewer blues, most of them being completely un-thematic for a druid. Sad times really.
Just finished a campaign at 20th level. My Druid only ever used Foresight on our Fighter. It was really helpful, especially since he had been prone to failing wisdom saves or other saves that took him out of the combat or turned him against us.
While I would have loved to use others, the foresight was a significant buff that our party needed.
Once he got that buff, combined with Indominable, he never got turned us on again.
Considering that this fighter had a Cloak of Displacement and Wave...we did NOT want him turned on us. That's a quick way to TPK the rest of the party in one to two rounds.
Did I want to use Shape change? REALLY BADLY. But -- as a 20th level Druid, I was already able to wild shape. Keeping our fighter on the correct target saved our party frequently. Keeping our fighter standing because of the advantage on saving throws, super helpful. Negating disadvantage -- optimal. Keeping him in the surprise round, critical.
Foresight was basically my permacast spell
True Resurrection -- used once. Our wizard got killed in a trap in the Tomb of Annihilation, and we were absolutely not able to get to his body. This one we needed. So yes, we needed it.
If you're willing to devote the preparation slot to it, Foresight seems like a GREAT rest tricking spell to have, for any days that you don't spend a 9th level slot
The main advantage of True Res over Res, as far as I know, is that you can True Res doesn't need a body, so you can True Res a party member who has been disintegrated or whose body was unrecoverable.
I think reincarnate also only needs a single body part to ressurect them
Also, this is strictly useful for roleplay, but true resurrection in the only spell that can revive someone that was turned into an undead.
@@edgaraquino3528 Wish can also do that, although it is more risky.
Shapechange into different kinds of dragon each round and use their breath weapons. Yep, clearly balanced. Why seige a city using Storm of Vengeance when you can instead turn into a storm of dragons?
Don't both of those take actions? Still very powerful.
@@brennennestvogel3983 true, every other round then.
@@stranger6822 Still much better than Storm of Vengeance.
@@poilboiler definitely is. Larger effective range too. Can't hit a whole city with a 360 aoe, but a dragon can do it.
@@stranger6822 a city's defenses can't potentially* dispel or break the concentration of a storm cloud though. [* acknowledging that adult red dragons have +13 con saves].
Also SoV is a 360 radius, so that's a 720' diameter, and 5,000 high column aoe.
Thanks so much for seeing this through to the end. My githzerai druid will probably never get a chance to use these, but I appreciate you going through all levels in such depth!
You're playing a githezeri Druid too? Mine is a wildfire druid. I agree that treantmonk helped me a lot in good spells selection.
I picked Stars. Thought it fit the theme really well. Augury and reading the stars is super thematically cool combo.
There is one circumstance in which you require true resurrection to bring back player characters: When their original body is lost or destroyed (say, a disintegrate spell) or turned into an undead. Not very common, but it's the only spell that can resurrect a person regardless of circumstance within that 200 year limit. True resurrection also doesn't have the same penalties that raise dead/ressurection have. So true resurrection is useful if you need someone to get into action right that very second.
Doesn't change the orange rating. But there's a few more notable circumstances where this spell has use than mentioned in the video.
yea my group gets some mileage out of true resurrect... geneeraly playing campaigns to high level. My DM, and friend, will imprison souls or hide bodies to deny a resurrect or raise... i can't remember what hiding bodies is good for. Conversely our party would each have a strand of hair from the other party members (in a vial of course) , to enable a resurrect (maybe that's only true for the lower level version, having forgetfulness atm). Still a good idea though.
In defense of SoV, I think thematically it’s a lot of fun being a Druid that summons a massive storm that can wipe out an army. And, as you mentioned, if you need to take out a horde of 1hp minions or the lich’s army you of skeletons, it works well.
I agree that True Resurrection should be orange, but when the right circumstances come to pass, then it can be one of the best summoning spells in the game; imagine if Bak'zalnol'del the Silver Greatwyrm (good, immensely powerful) died 150 years ago, and you know about it, and you're about to fight the BBEG...
free dragon ally (note: its not really free because Bak'zalnol'del probably wants his share of the treasure after this whole thing is over, and also you spent 25000 GP reviving him lmao)
but honestly how often is a DM telling you about all these powerful good-aligned dragons who died less than 200 years ago? thats why its orange
I like the idea of a legendary figure that can be "summoned" in times of need, and must be "summoned" at least once every 200 years. Turns out the "summoning" ritual is a True Resurrection as a unique ritual and the figure is a Zealot barbarian that once the need is done, kills themself so they can be resurrected again in the future.
Players should have access to "DM" spells. Being able to do vary "DM-ey" things is vary important. Not all dnd play is just going from dungeon to dungeon. Players that stay in one spot for long periods of time heavily benefit to "DM" spells. Saying players shouldn't have these spells is vary close mind.
(To be clear in normal combat storm of vengeance isn't that useful, I'm not arguing with the rating. I just don't agree with the view that players shouldn't have access to it at all)
True Resurrection, to my knowledge, is the only way to bring back a PC that was Disintegrated, of which I have nearly been a victim of a few times. Still not something you would prepare for an adventuring day, but it's good that more than one class can prepare it.
Wish
@@TheTsugnawmi2010 yeah, but you'll have a 1/3 chance to never cast wish again after that. True Resurrection is the safest way
Wish too technically, but that is sort of cheating
Having run Storm of Vengeance as a DM spell (and having the effects stack each round). My players mostly brushed it off. I mean. By round 5, 16d6 damage to 3 targets per round was no joke. I think I downed an Ancient Dragon by round 7 with it.
I've since been told that the effects aren't supposed to stack each round. I don't care, it's how I will always run it.
Stacking effects would make it actually somewhat worth being ninth level.
Stacking the effects is a marvelous idea - totally stealing this for an epic encounter when my players get to a high enough level.
Do you want to know what I like the most about your channel? You finish your series. I see the first episode of a new series and I KNOW you are going to continue it. Congratulations!
There was a cool plot element in an old 3E sourcebook that had a religion whose saint and leader was wholly devoured by a demon, and he was the only member of their church who’d been able to cast True Resurrection, so the great quest around which they’d assembled was to either recover the demon so they’d have something resembling a body part or somehow level another member to 17.
I think the main design issue with shapechange is a similar issue to druid's wildshape. Do we really want players paging through all the DM books mining for monsters, finding out what all the monsters weaknesses and resistances are?
I don't think it's a spell I would personally take for that reason--I certainly don't know what all the high level monsters do, and wouldn't want to spoil the surprise.
kinda the point of playing a druid. Druids are connected to nature and they would know the creatures they transform into. That's part of why they have to have seen them
The best thing about Foresight (and other non-concentration spells with duration 8h) is, that you can cast them right before the end of long rest, so you start your adventuring day with all spell slots, but one of your martials has advantage on everything for 8 hours!
I suprised that druids don't get true polymorph, I always assumed they did.
Thanks very much for this series. I never feel like anyone gives respect to the Druid spell list. Now I hope more people will respect it and not just ask how it works with the Moon Druid.
Shape Change is definitely more versatile, but having played a character using Foresight, it's amazing. Like playing D&D in God Mode. No concentration and just makes you better at everything. Shape Change has one drawback in that it can dramatically slow down play for groups not intimately familiar with the rules and the monster manual, or while the player searches for "the perfect shape" for this situation.
Forsight with the metamagic that makes spells last longer so you can have it cast on two creatures at once. ;)
@@secretlyditto7716 Foresight says it ends immediately if you cast it again before the duration ends. You'd need twinned spell with its hefty point cost to get 2 people.
A succinct and sincere conclusion, thank you Chris. These become available around the time you can cast in wildshape, which changes the preparations for every circle if they want to fly for hours.
I like the pre-errata storm of vengeance. if i’m not mistaken, the effects used to stack back then.
6 bolts of lightning every turn already would be much better.
I can see the value in Foresight by helping out a Hexblade, Paladin, and/or Rogue teammate with constant Advantage who may be crit fishing - especially with the Elven Accuracy+Sharpshooter/GWM feats.
except crit-fishing is probably the worst way to build damage, especially when you can get a better and more consistent result from the same caster using hold person or hold monster on the target instead.
It's useful in keeping your fighter working for YOU and not your ENEMY wizard.
and at least with simple the on demand triple advantage you're not dependent on allies casting hold person/monster against every enemy you want to attack [and then banking on that enemy having chronically bad saving throws/no legendary resistances/paralyzed immunity -etc.]
Thank you for making this druid series. I was never personally interested in the druid class but might make a decent utility caster after watching your spell series.
Great video series. Even when I played a moon Druid, I relied on spells a lot because I ended up in a party heavy on melee characters. I enjoyed the versatility of the Druid spells.
Storm of vengeance says it all in its title. If a Druid wants vengeance on a town or a city, this is his choice. Same for a Druid waging a guerrilla campaign. It doesn't do much damage to objects or buildings, which is probably good, unless you are wanting vengeance or are a guerrilla.
Shapechange is insanely powerful, but I worry about the concentration tag for combat uses when we are talking about your one and only 9th level spell cast in a day. Sure you can do something amazing, and then any smart opponent will do everything possible to make you drop concentration. At least Foresight is safe from that.
Our Necromancer tried to resurrect his wife who is now in the state between life and dead, and we learned a while ago that my druid is able to cast true resurrection when he is at higher levels. It's his characters goal to bring his wife back, so I think that is a good reason to select true resurrection when I can.
Actually thats a good point, some spells could just be in the dmg or some similar product. Things that is possibke for a caster of the relevant level, just not really meant for players.
Idk why Druids don’t get as many spells as Cleric despite being a divine caster. You’d think there would be a spell that would create biome, change the climate in an area, or cause a forest to appear out if nowhere.
The only “druidic” nineth level spells we get are Storm of Vengeance and Shapechange.
It's pretty disappointing. WE WANT TO RAISE A VOLCANO! 👏
The subclass doesn't exist anymore, but the UA twilight druid always made me think about earthquake/storm_of_vengence.
+10d10 to earthquakes or all the storm's damage was something that sounded monstrous
I already knew Shapechange is going platinum with the rating.
Shapechange is definitely my favorite 9th level spell, especially for the bad guy...
I'd say that Storm of Vengeance, while still Red, is borderline orange simply for the enormous area of effect. Sure the damage is single digit d6's, but with an area of over 400,000 sq feet, you could easily deal that 1d6 of acid damage on Round 2 into several thousands of d6 worth of damage.
You mention besieging a castle, but if you're the one under siege by a large army of minions, you could severely hamper the encroaching force by the time they arrive at your doors. Granted, this is going a bit into war-gaming territory
Playing defense against a siege with high level characters is so much fun. Have your party in charge of evacuation/fortification and then be the last line of defense against a bunch of minions.
Give your characters 1d4 days of preparation then have waves of different enemies crash against them. Wizards with prep can do all kinds of shenanigans. The absolute decimation of a sorcerer distance spelling meteor swarm. The meat grinder of a cavalier fighter guarding the single entrance. So many ways to have characters be epic.
Shape change worst 3 things that It can be counterspelled, it can be dispelled and it is concentration. all of these three makes it a real bummer when it happened.
AND it takes an action to set up so there is a turn you wont be do anything but take damage and potentially drop that spell. at this level its not out of the realm of possibilities to take like 60 to 90 damage in one damage source . like no way you can concentrate after that.
For sight at least you will be able to get some use of it during the day.
Replying to a year old comment I know, but for concentration you can shapechange into something with legendary resistances.
For the 1 round setup, shapechange does have a duration of 1 hour so if you know you’re about to get into an encounter you can cast it before hand.
You are still susceptible to dispel though, which sucks. Granted it would need to be a lvl 9 dispel to negate it without a check. But even then having your ultimate once per day spell dispelled on a 30% chance feels bad. Only thing you can do is have another caster with counter-spell in your party.
Why is Storm of Vengeance ninth level? It should be 8th level and no concentration.
Like so many bad 9th level spells, I just assume the designers just didn't want people wish casting it, lol
True resurrection would get you back someone who lost their brain to an intellect devourer, although dm might allow regeneration/raise dead combo Also useful if you want to bring back a PC who died from mummy rot, disintegrate, or other effects where you are utterly destroyed.
I've been pretty unimpressed with cleric and druid 8-9th level spells. Once you hit 13th level i think there is a good argument to be had for multiclassing into a different full spell caster. Or even a druid diving into cleric or vice versa.
if you're going to 20, you do not want to give up unlimited wildshape for Druid -- but if your campaign isn't going to make it there -- absolutely multiclass
@@catstandish the archdruid feature is ok but if you are not a moon druid it will open a PC up to a lot of instant kills like disintegrate and power word kill. The real question is whether having that one ability for a session or two at 20th level is a even trade for wizard or cleric 1-7 and the front loaded class features that come with that choice.
Archdruid could be be good for a Spores druid as well [at will 80 THP] and maybe wildfire [minion resummoning] but ya, for most others it's just improved subtle spell.
@@elliotbryant3459 Wildfire Druid -- yep, I kept that Wildfire Spirit up like crazy.... and it's got a lot of amazing traits that took me a while to use. My favorite? I'd keep it within move distance of our tank. He'd attack something hideous, then the spirit would move forward and teleport him to somewhere else to make the thing actually have to move (if it could). But yeah, that's just half health summoning at your command
Why wouldn't Storm of Vengeance just combine all the effects in one round? I mean it's 9th level, let us shape the spots that are subject to the spells effect each round, so it's remotely useful, then it would still be worse than Prismatic Wall.
So with those new spell rule changes, Shape Change might allow druids to cast Wish.
interesting.... Since we're still technically on board for our campaign...... I might pull that with my DM in our Discord Roll Play :D Granted, I already have a Wish just sitting around that I don't know what to do with.
Long time follower here: I’d suggest you to condense these high level episodes together, it’s a bit disappointing to wait a week for a 4 spells video 🥲 your ranking and evaluation stuff is really well done and interesting but builds are more entertaining to me, thanks for your work, I love both the channel and the discord!
Some longer build videos are coming up next!
True resurrections would be useful for PCs if they die due to disintegrate.
For sure. No reason to keep it prepared though. If a character dies and body is lost completely, you can always prepare it the next day.
@@TreantmonksTemple just because you don't need to prepare it doesn't mean that it's not a good spell, though. That's the beauty of being a prepared caster. Any spell on your list that's only useful in specific situation suddenly vastly improves, because you'll be able to have it for when that situation comes up. Seems a bit odd to rate it orange when the rules of prepared casters make situational spells that work retroactively better.
@@TreantmonksTemple i agree with the orange rating, since druids prepare spells everyday it is not something i would prepare unless there was a disintegrated PC.
A question regarding Shapechange. Regarding it's restriction on accessing using a monsters "spellcasting trait" does this effect the monsters in Fizbans who have the Spellcasting Action?
If they don't have the spellcasting trait then you're golden.
True Resurrect your old dead character and retire your godly Druid to a forest kingdom for when s/he’s needed?
cleric and druid's prepared casting kind of bites them in the ass as far as 9th level spell options go, only having 5 or 4 respectively, with only 2 each that would have practical regular use.
Storm of Vengence is good for sieges and mass battles!
Give foresight to the rogue for sneak attack for daysss~
Love to see Storm of Vengeance getting put in its place. Most people have no opinion on it, which is fine, but it seems like EVERYONE else supremely overrates it.
What would you rate Storm of Vengeance at if the effects each round were cumulative not procedural? Would it be blue then?
disintegrated or finger of death player character for True Res
I hate that druids dont get true polymorph. It fits the theme of a druid so well.
I know that storm of vengeance requires concentration and stuff, but it makes me wonder, does it do this damage automatically each round. So I could be launching spells at them as this storm is going on. This would make this a really good spell, especially for dealing a lot of damage to one thing in the least amount of rounds.
Cast foresight on the rogue or paladin. Eesh
My Druid npc is gonna use foresight, not storm of vengeance lmao
I think Foresight is really, really overrated. On paper, the effect is great; amazing, even. And it's not even concentration. But, when you cast the spell, you really have to ask yourself, who are you actually casting it on, and what are you *really* getting out of it? Are you casting it on the battlemaster fighter, who's going to be opening up his 8 attack rounds with a trip attack to get advantage on everything anyways? The gloomstalker ranger, who's going to be permanently invisible and already making every attack with advantage? The Barbarian, who already has reckless attack? What about the Rogue, who's almost always going to be attacking from stealth or using Steady Aim anyways? The thing about advantage is that it doesn't stack. And most high level martial builds not only usually already have ways of giving themselves advantage, but there are a plethora of other lower level spells that put conditions on enemies that make them vulnerable to attacks with advantage too. In many, many scenarios, this aspect of the spell is going to be wasted.
But maybe, you aren't using it for the attack rolls, and just really want to get someone to succeed on a skill check for some reason! This is obviously a bad use compared to a cleric just casting guidance on someone for a cantrip slot, and glibness works better for being an effective counterspeller, but if you ever really need someone to do something important, you usually have someone with expertise for that skill already in your party. Or a rogue, who will just instantly succeed at this level anyways. And this is all assuming that its something that can't just be automatically solved with a lower level spell. Needless to say, skills are the least important part.
And, obviously, you've got the saving throws in there as well, which is probably the best part of the spell. But you're sacrificing a 9th level spell slot to do this, and it only effects a single person. And advantage, last I checked, gives about an average of 3.5 to your roll. So, for an entire 9 spell levels, you're giving one person an additional point to their saving throws over what they would get on average from the bless spell. Which is a level 1 spell. And can affect your entire party.
Coincidentally, bless also increases your party's attack rolls, and because its an integer bonus, it actually stacks with advantage, making it even more useful than foresight when it comes to boosting your allies damage in the majority of scenarios. Did I mention that it can affect your entire party?
To summarize, the pros and cons of using foresight compared to bless
pros:
-It lasts for your adventuring day instead of one fight
-Your target will never be surprised
-it's non-concentration, allowing you to concentrate on other spells at the same time
-1 more point
cons:
-You only get to cast 9th level spells once per day
-Advantage doesn't stack, making this mostly effective for characters that probably weren't already heavy-hitters
-it affects one third of the targets bless does at level 1
-doesn't synergize well with other spells for teamplay
-its a 9th level spell
If we go strictly by the numbers, assuming a cleric is able to cast 1st level spells as much as they want by level 17, bless is going to be at least 2.14x as effective during each fight. And that's even assuming the target didn't get advantage to their rolls before foresight was cast upon them. Even if we take into consideration that the cleric might be going last, it litteraly only takes a single round of being used for bless to catch up and be more effective than foresight. I personally feel like there's a clear winner here, but the fact that a 9th level spell is comparable to a 1st level spell in the first place should be a really, really strong indicator that something's wrong.
It's a trap option that technically works as a catch-all, but there are vastly superior options for specific scenarios and I feel like it makes you think that its better than it is just because it doesn't deal damage and thus feels like a "smart" spell.
Even with a bias in its favor, I feel like it should be rated purple at best. I personally view it as only being decent when you know you already have a party that never gets advantage on their attack rolls anyways, which makes it situational, which means orange. The saving throws help, but only by 1 point compared to a 1st level spell.
(This *is* a Druid video.... Druids don't, as a rule, get Bless. For a Cleric, yes, this would be a valid argument -- but it is not for a Druid.... and if your party's healer is a Druid, there won't be a Cleric in the mix.)
@@catstandish regardless of whether or not they themselves have bless, the fact of the matter is that you're sacrificing a 9th level spell slot to cast something comparable to another caster's 1st level spell slot. If a caster with foresight on their spell list acknowledges that and thinks its a good spell to choose regardless, they should probably re-evaluate the reason why they picked their class.
@@ihave2cows you cleric ally would also be sacrificing their action and concentration at the start of every initiative [and again when ever their concentration is broken] to accomplish this [so much for initiative advantage, passive perception and your first round attack/saving throw boosts] -and the cleric is now nothing more than a bless-bot.
-And then there's the whole enemies have disadvantage on their attacks against you aspect.
@@ihave2cows #1 Bless IS a Concentration spell. #2. Not all parties have a Cleric. #3 Not every fighter has a good Wisdom score and when you start messing with monsters that can Control your Tank, you do what you can to keep the damage dealer dealing damage to the enemy, not your paty.
Bless is worthless if there's no one to cast it.
And , to be quite honest, there's more to playing a caster than the ability to cast Bless.
@@ihave2cows Foresight is superior to Bless because of how it is can be used. If your party has one Tank, you need the damage dealer dealing damage to the enemy not the party, and when the enemy has the ability to control your Tank on a failed save, then you need to use any and all resources at your command to make sure that does not happen.
I just finished a campaign where I played a 20th level Wildfire Druid. Foresight was perpetually on our Tank because:
Our fighter had an AC of 23 with a Cloak of Displacement -- which means every hit against him was at disadvantage. He also had Wave, which is a sentient Trident that will suck out half your health on a crit. Two crits from Wave and you're toast. Translation: we did not want our Tank coming after us. (Happened one too many times before Foresight came on line)
Add to that, and this is something Bless cannot do : Every single one of his attacks is at advantage. So you have a 20th level fighter with four attacks, who Crits when he rolls 18 wielding a weapon that just needs two Crits to take out a monster.
So what does Foresight do?
1) He's never surprised
2) He gets advantage on every attack, making it more likely to Crit Fish
3) All checks at advantage
4) All Saving throws at advantage.
When you combine that with a Cloak that meant that all attacks were at Disadvantage, you get a beast.
He took out a Tarrask in ONE ROUND. Do you think we want that coming after US?!
Bless will not do anything like that.
So after having seen all of these spells all I can say is:
Wow.
Druid spells really suck. XD
So many reds and oranges, a few greens and fewer blues, most of them being completely un-thematic for a druid.
Sad times really.