Historical Pitch (And Why “Baroque Pitch” is NOT A 415)
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- HISTORICAL PITCH (AND WHY “BAROQUE PITCH” IS NOT A 415) / You probably know that modern pitch is A 440, but it wasn’t always that way. Historical performers today usually play Baroque music at A 415, but that isn’t quite correct either. So what is the history of pitch and how did the pitch of A change over time? And what really is “Baroque pitch”?
This video explains what pitch was like in music from before the 20th century and how that affected the music that was written in the past, specifically in the Baroque era. We explore in detail J.S. Bach’s cantata BWV 31 and all the things it can teach us about historical pitch.
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BACH ORNAMENT CHART:
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Note: Some of the links below are affiliate links, which means that I’ll earn a small commission if you purchase the books I mention after clicking on the link.
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AN AWESOME BOOK ABOUT HISTORICAL PITCH:
“History of Performing Pitch: The Story of ‘A’” by Bruce Haynes
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DR. ALICE CHUAQUI BALDWIN. For more about me, check out my website:
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What questions do you have about historical pitch and Baroque pitch that I didn’t answer in this video? And what would you like me to discuss in greater detail? Let me know with a comment below!
415 is actually Modern Baroque Pitch because like Modern 440 pitch Baroque pitch also wasn't yet standardized until recently
I think I know what happened here. Alot of tuning forks, and instruments were retuned to a ballpark pitch and Organs have been tuned down to chamber tone pitch because the technology has advanced to allow the lowest pipes to be made bigger for less money.
Alice M. I just realized something else they use 415 as Modern Baroque pitch because what happened here was that a lot of instruments, and tuning forks were retuned. The Organ Bach wrote his music for used to be pitched at 465 (So Key of C Sharp) but in 1793 it has gone under a major rebuild and was tuned down to 415 (Key of B). As technology advanced, they were able to cut the price of the lower pitched pipes down.
Is there a temperament that coincides with the natural harmonic series?I read about in Hindemith's book.
Thank you Alice! This is a fascinating topic and apparently controversial to some degree. At least controversial on a Mandolin Cafe message thread I read. A poster on that thread claimed that people who preferred to play baroque music at 415 were acting like dogmatic fascists. This poster actually called them “nazis” I thought his claims were ridiculous and over dramatized.
I play classical music on the mandolin family instruments.
Playing Bach’s Cello suites on the mandocello and mandola is a lot of fun.
I usually use the A415 tuning on my instruments for several reasons. 1.) The lower tension is easier to play. I’ve had carpal tunnel surgery on my left(fretting) hand. My left hand has never been the same, and I quit playing for quite while, but I’m back playing now and doing my best.
2) The second reason I use 415
is I actually like the lower more bassy, tone better. “Bassy” is not an actual word I guess 🙂 but I like the mandolin family instruments to sound a little deeper. I’ve even scalloped two of my mandolins which allows me to fret notes with a lighter touch. I’m thinking of scalloping one of my two mandocellos as well.
Thanks for your time I don’t want to ramble on any longer, but I bought a special electronic tuner that allows me to tune in A392 and I’m still experimenting with that tuning right now.
I have one question if you do read this.
How many semitones lower is A392 compared to A440? I think you explained that at the end of the video, but I have no formal music training.
I think a semitone is a half a step or one fret on a guitar? I’m not totally sure about that but I know Kurt Cobain wrote a lot of Nirvanas songs half a step lower on the guitar.
466 as Modern Renaissance, 440 as Modern, 415 as Modern Baroque, & 392 as Modern French Baroque were all pretty recent. We lost a lot of historical detail as organs have been variously repaired and upgraded/changed over the years, which they've needed anyway.
As a tenor who started as a baritone, singing Renaissance music in the 1960s (based on an A=440), this fascinates me. A as about 415 would be MUCH more comfortable than A as 440 (or 465, God help us!). With a 440 A, as a baritone, I could reach the low Es in the bass part. With A at 415 (or 392!), that would have been out of range--but not for a true bass. On a comfort basis--for ME, as a tenor--an A at 415 or 392 would have been a good fit, in terms of general "tessitura." if not extremes. At my best, singing opera. I had bass C to Tenor high C, but tessitura is critical, particularly in terms of vocal fatigue.
Just considering how to sing the Handel Messiah properly... Yes, the notes on the page are singable, but how to fit that in context with contemporary performance in 2023?
The common depiction of a wave shows it going up and down similar to wave trains on water.
But sound in air propagates as a spherical compression wave.
I can add to this that it basically means that (a string on) an instrument creates regions of high and low pressure air at the corresponding frequency, which travel outward spherically.
Basically the air becomes dense and less dense at the played frequency. The pressure differences are what your ear registers.
You hit the nail on the head with the mention of organs and wind instruments; within my perspective as a wind musician, a baroque “standard” pitch is simply an oversimplification for the sake of us wind musicians.
It is too much, I believe, for a wind musician to be expected to own instruments in the numerous pitches. As a bassoonist specifically, it is already quite rare to own a bassoon at A392, much less one at, say, A400, A410, A420, etc. It simply isn’t feasible to own an additional $6-10k investment for a single pitch.
While ideally one would have a replica instrument of an instrument from each different country and decade of the baroque era, in practicality that is far from ideal. How many violinists are there out there that actually own a French violin, a German violin, an Italian violin, etc?
As for harpsichord, yes ideally one would have several harpsichords at their disposal, but in less than ideal conditions, could conceivably re-tune to the pitch standard. So in the case of wind instruments, we must posses several instruments to keep up with the ideal of a “perfectly authentic” pitch standard
I have only just come across this channel a few minutes ago.
Many thanks for a truly fascinating talk about such a complex subject.
I always took it as gospel that baroque music was pitched a semitone lower no matter where.
I understand now why a couple of organ music recordings I have sound a whole tone higher.
Now A415 is actually like tuning your Guitar down a Half Step so that you can sing the high notes w/o pushing your Vocal to where you'd hurt yourself.
An organ pipe with a sounding length of 8 feet, at sea level and at moderate temperature, will produce a note with a measurable frequency and it will be called a 'C'. The 'A' can be determined from that 'C' and so also all of the other standard pitches. Variants of the original 8 feet will likewise vary the pitch quality BUT all historical periods and geographic locations have their own solutions and indeed their own length measuring devices where a 'foot' would be longer or shorter than a 'foot' in another country. Bach's music shows how important it is to recognize that some of his vocal works would be unsingable at the wrong venue.
An excellent treatise on pitch. I am eager for something similar on tuning and temperament.
Recently I got a Recorder in A=415hz and I find it interesting. However, when I perform Baroque music I play the same piece on my 440hz and 415hz Recorders so I can find out which Recorder suits the piece better... Rather than playing baroque music at certain pitch I just pitch my Recorders and find out the best timbre for the piece.
I was told that in Bach's time , often the lowest C# on the pedal board , there was a pedal for it but there was no pipe in the organ case related to that specific pedal . C# , especialy in 16 ft stops , were costly and were not so much used , so many organ builders skip the C# pipes .
I also know that the carillon is transposing instrument, Some towers that a carillon was housed in had enough space for 47 bells omitting C# and D#, 48 bells omitting just C#, Or fully chromatic with no semitones omitted, Therefor the carillon and early organs have simular things in common, Omitted semitones.
Fantastic! Thank you for such a clear and concise presentation. I'm sure you've expanded a lot of minds with this. Looking forward to seeing/hearing more!
415 is actually "Modern Baroque" pitch cause like Modern 440 pitch, Baroque pitch wasn't yet standardized either until recently.
Great Channel, a lot of knowledge and input, thanks a lot from m heart ❤️ 😊🙏🏻
Thankyou for such a straight forward and concise explanation. It is indeed quite rewarding and fun to experience the idiosyncrasies and spectrum of tonal colors that "historical" pitch levels offer, and from the standpoint of idiomatic instrumental writing, quite enlightening as well. But while all this appeals to us early music nerds, I think we have lost sight of almost certain likelihood that performers and composers managed however way was most practical within their circumstances.
So far the best explanation I found online!
During the Baroque period, the organ in Versailles chapel was built on 2 diapasons. Two 8' foot stops and two 4'foot stops were at a diapason so these stops could be played with instruments and the rest of the organ ( 34 stops ???) was at another diapason for when it was played solo . If I'm right , the main part of the organ was in A = 440 and the 4 ( 8 and 4 foot stops) were at 415 . ( Or maybe vice versa .) ( The 4 stops were the Positiv 8' 4' and the Great 8'4' flute stops.)
At one point , Paris church organs were at one diapason and Versailles chapel organ was on another diapason. Here is what happens next . The organ tuner man would come to a Paris church . He would ask them :" What A do you want to be tuned in : Paris tone ( 415 ) or Versailles's tone (440 ) ? " Many peoples would say : " We want Versailles tone " feeling that the king might be having something more than them . So at one point , Paris churches merge with Versailles chapel tuning so to satisfied Parisian hurted narcissism .
In the Barenreiter edition of BWV 31 they cleverly solved the problem by only using instruments either at 415 for Baroque Pitch or 440 for Modern Pitch.
Around 1793 those Organs that used to be at 465 have been tuned down to 415 because as technology advanced, the lowest pipes could be made longer for less money.
They now have Baroque Pitch at 415 for practical reasons
What a great, informative, video. CZcams at its best!
A392 is actually a G which means those instruments are actually in the key of Bb.
As someone who listens to baroque music frequently and somewhat of a history buff, I appreciate what you're doing (I just discovered your channel and subscribed), I like how u go more in depth about the baroque era and it's various tunings (though I kinda already knew about the era having no standard tuning exactly) but still, I like your knowledge in the field. And I like how you said your trying to keep everything as historically accurate, that's something I believe in as well, hope you keep making more videos!
Thank you so much for all this information. I had no idea it was so complex.
very thorough discussion, bravo.....
Hi, thanks so much for your explanations! I have a question-I am prepping violin students for a Baroque competition in my area, and all the newer youtube performances by Baroque groups are in what I assume is A 415. These kids all have to compete with a piano tuned to the standard a 440, so it’s hard to find well thought out performances that kids can listen to and play along with. Is there any way to adjust pitch on youtube recordings?
A466 means that that Chorton Organ transposes up a Half Step from Concert pitch.
Highly informative. Thank you for this. I was wondering why all of my Weimar cantata recordings were pitched in A= 465.
Hi. Benedetto Marcello Organ in Venice (Santi Apostoli Churc) is 466, Antonio Vivaldi Organ (San Martino Church) is 450, Tommaso Albinoni Organ (San Barnaba Church) is 460 Hz Pitch. Original organs made by Gaetano Callido and Pietro Nacchini in 1700s
the highest pitch in venice is 470 Hz. the lowest is 435
I believe 470 was a step higher meaning everything is transposing instruments at that moment.
Thank you for this is a really good exposition of historical pitch. However, kindly permit an organbuilder to weigh in on a small, but interesting point. One reads here and there that the relatively high pitch of old German organs* arose from trying to save money on the precious tin for facade pipes. This is a just-so story. If the church was too poor, they just made them out of common metal, which is mostly lead. Low C of the Hauptwerk Prinzipal was still eight feet long, just like everywhere else. But...
...What do we mean by eight feet? In central Germany the organs would have been built according to the Dresden ('Rheinische') foot of ~281 mm. Thus, an 8-foot C would be 2.25 metres long, and A in the middle octave would sound ~462 Hz--pretty close to our modern Bb of 466.2 Hz. In France, however, the standard measure was the 'pied du roy' of 325 mm, where 8 feet would have been 2.60 metres. That pipe scale would have had a middle A of 405 HZ, indeed the better part of a minor third lower than its Saxon counterpart.
There were a raft of other measures in use, which further complicated the pitches of organs, and the instruments which had to play with them. In northern Germany the Hamburg foot (287 mm) was standard--and this was the Amsterdam foot as well--whereas Antwerp used the Dresden foot. Brunswick, Berlin, and Nürnberg--each had its own foot. So did Vienna, Rome, and Venice. Nor can we always relate the original pitch of an old organ to the local foot of its day--even in the rare case when we can be sure of both. And then, to confound us all, there is Arp Schnitger's last masterpiece (1721) at Saint Michael's Church in Zwolle, NL where the great builder from Hamburg pitched the organ a half-tone higher still, at A494! Why? I'm not sure anybody knows.
All this only goes to strengthen your central point: when we immerse ourselves in the music of earlier centuries, we must leave our 21st century mindset behind us--starting with the notion that there could be anything like universal standards; and leading to the understanding that there can't be only one way of playing anything!
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*'Chorton', A465, more or less.
What you haven't discussed is how stringed instruments were not able to handle the tension of strings of these days, nor how, for example, violins largely had gut strings, and that these things also affected how much tension could be put on strings and thus not permitting a pitch that, for example, modern pianos or violins do (modern violins are also built differently). Plus, there were no large concert halls like today, so there was not the same need for loudness and large orchestras, etc.
In Germany WWII was over and the most famous chamber orchestra was the Dortmund Chamber Orchestra, famous as good sounding. The violins played gut, even the E-string. Sometimes an E-string got broken in the midst of a concerto. Then the violinist took a spool of gut and a scissors and made himself a new string. They mostly waited for the pause between movements. They had a modern chamber tone.
Pirastro informed his customers. Paganini ordered a bundle of E-strings. He tested one after the other and threw the whole bundle into the fire of his chimney. They were not perfectly cylindric. He said: "What is not good enough for me, is not good enough for others!"
Thereafter, Pirasto made perfect E-strings, but at a higher cost. I had one of those on my violin, for just more than a week, it was 660 Hz. After a week I had to change it. So you need either cheap strings from a spool, low quality, or good strings, but a lower chamber tone. Nowadays this quality is used for rackets.
In the Baroque, not only gut was used for E-strings, but also the long hair of women. They were braid and you need the length of 1 meter to start the work. You need less blonde hairs than black hairs, because black hairs are thinner. When I was a young man, I looked for such a woman, should be blond, with very long hair, that would give me some, but I could not find.
You are right, the E-string is a problem for Baroque violinists. ;-)
I didn't realize organs were sometimes at different pitches than other instruments. That complicates the matter of temperament. I suppose if we're trying to use an appropriate temperament we should play in the key that the organ played in, but then the other instruments' key color would be wrong.
Hello and thank you for your fantastic videos, if we have a look on the manuscript of the Bach cantata BWV 106 the Actus Tragicus, we find all parts including the bass written in E flat major except recorder parts written in F major, and if we take in consideration that the recorders were made in France (392hz) that would mean that the main pitch of the piece would be 440 and 465, unless the organ pitch was not 465 or the recorders were not in 392, what is your point of view about?! Thank you.
So if organ pitch was 465 the recorders should have been in 415, and if organ was in 440 the recorders in 392, no?
Oboe D'amore is a Mezzo-Soprano Oboe, & the Taille (modern day English Horn) is actually an Alto Oboe.
Bach used "the taille" in most of his cantatas...for example the christmas cantata...or the 3rd "oboe" part in the cantata BWV 140 Wachet Auf.
He used Oboe d'amore in his Mass in Bminor in both parts.
Usualy , in French , taille means tenor from 1600 to Revolution as in Tierce or Cromorrne en en Taille ( Tierce stop or Cromorne stop in solo at tenor level - the octave under piano 's middle C).
@@Nicolas-zb9uw
Also known as Taille de Hautbois
what is the name of the piece at 0:29?
It's the gigue from Handel's suite Hwv438!
Very helpfull, thanks😃
2:10 *perfect pitch havers have entered the chat*
Curious about the Second Brandenburg, in which the trumpet plays ridiculously high (even for Bach). I have heard that some musicologists have advocated for dropping the trumpet a full octave or for playing the trumpet part on the horn. As a Baroque enthusiast, and a trumpeter, I have always found the Brandenburg out of reach and, even on an original instrument, I find it doesn't blend well with the other wind soloists. Any thoughts?
A Harpsichord pitched at A440, that's cool & why is it like that?
BAroque pithces should be standardised on locations like: London, where handel was, Leipzig where Bach was(a 415) And for French the court of louis xiv, using the pitch and temperament of the organ in the chapelle royale, not the weimar german with french instruments pitch
What about vocal music such as the Et Exultavit. I have heard recordings in the d major and c# for some baroque groups. Since it was 1733 and Leipzig: what is your opinion. I have sung it in both. It is interesting that it is the second soprano solo not first: so I wonder what color Bach had in mind. I have heard both soprano and mezzos sing it. As a singer, I am also wondering about pitch choice in Bach, Handel, and especially the Scarlatti opera aria such as Vinto Sono 1690. It is rarely recorded because it is impossible to sing in D major. Was pitch way lower or were men singing. I would love to hear your opinion. Cantor Betsey Peters Epstein
Any video about Transposing a part PLZ?
Thanks!
It seems superfluous to attempt to add anything to your excellent discussion on what baroque pitch isn’t, but might I suggest that the correct German pronunciation of ‘Chorton’ should be used, simply because the correctGerman pronunciation ‘cor-tone’ illustrates the derivation, as in (anglicised) ‘core-tone’ (‘choir pitch’ in translation) rather than the second syllable being abbreviated as in the English word ’carton’.
Thank you
As far as your Leipzig references it all makes historical sense and the parts seem to match the most historically logical conclusions.
I'm interested in the idea of what Bach and people in the town including those Clerks who decided on how much they would spend on the organ actually appreciated the sound of it being a semitone higher. If they had the money would they have bought a more standard pitched instrument?
But given that the instrument was the instrument that it was, Bach would have taken this into some consideration especially for particular works of significance?
However the majority of his composing time was spent at the harpsichord or at the violin in his home, I wonder if there is any way we can tell what pitch they were set as "A"?
And thus what He himself thought of his compositions VS their performances regarding tuning?
The other question I have with all this reference to which the alpha is why on earth did music not make our Alpha scale consistent with the dominant mode used for Western harmonic and melodic content? (ie. Why is the ionian mode of c not beginning on a instead?).
This would give us semitones between the notes C and D C Sharp would be the enharmonic equivalent of D, and G to A where G# would be the enharmonic equivalence of A.
Maybe what matters more is not where A is but where the colours' (synaesthesia) of the music sit best and most importantly how the instruments respond to the change in tension apon their timbre...
For example violins of different ages respond differently to strings of different types and strings of different tensions. When going for a particularly sombre sound at maybe best to use strings that are not too high tension and have them also at lower gauges giving you a darker sound...
Maybe these two things are the only things that really matter.
Pop can keep its A=440 😂
Do we actualy know an italian baroque standardized pitch? (like french 392, german 415)
I like using a A446.7 tune, it syncs multiples of phi with the musical scale putting G3 at 199 hz. It's not a huge difference, but I can tell the difference in note resonance.
A473 tuning syncs the multiples to G5. The average, roughly A460, should put middle C close to in sync.
Makes me want to tune Cello to A446, viola to A460, and violin to A473... Or perhaps reversed, to see how it effects resonant tonality across the spectrum.
If anyone with the talent and instruments to try it, you should post me a sample here. 😁
You are spot on. There is no such thing as baroque pitch.
There is baroque pitch, we just will never know it exacly. But what would you prefer to a 415? Have a seperate tunging for every componist and little town? Not only the pitch but the temperament too? Imagine an oboist having about 30 oboes just for that? You need standarts in a global world, an Oboist from Leipzig never left Leipzig, thats why thery didnt have standarts and didnt need them
where can i find more info on the topic changing of the name chorton according to cities and period of time? thanks
nice Video! Still you have to mention that the a bach used on his organ wich is used to find out the Kammerton, can very in distance to g, relative to the temperament that was originaly used on the organ. For Bach it might work because it is nearly the equal temperament (due to his well tempered clavier, which fixed issues of the well tempered temperaments of the time, not inventing them!). But for example an Organ Buxtehude played on was in 467,3 Hrz and in the quarter comma meantone temperament, so buxtehudes Kammerton was very different, due to temperament. I peronaly think the a 415 i a great way to get near baroque pitch, while remaining a standart. Also for me as an Baroque Oboe player, I would be absoutely screwed, if one needed different oboes for every baroque componist, mentioning the price of about 1800 dollars for one. surely you can very the tone by wind pressure and speed, but not only that, old oboes have got a "plug" that in put on the upper side of the Instrument to put your reed on, and as a result of that, if the plug is not there anymore, which is normally the case, depending on the length of it the oboe tone could very by about a semitone. We will never know what the pitch was the baroque people played in, we will never know how they played, how they used dynamics.
Bach's tenor choral parts are "notoriously" high!! So, was that less of a vocal challenge in Bach's day than today?
Very thorough and clear. Thanks!
Good to hear and thank you!
So what is Baroque if not 415?
I don't want to be rude, but my God do you take your time in getting to a point, very laborious
Some people need the detail in a linear serial format. You seem to be suffering from the 'Curse of knowledge'.
Well, then this video is not for you. There was no "point" to be gotten TO. She was simply laying out information, which I found to be very educational.
Well, let us call the sound of a certain 8-foot-long pipe of a historical pipe organ of Hamburg a "C" and let us do the very same thing with another pipe in Munich. The Bavarian foot, for example, was different from the North German foot, so the two C's were "ab ovo" different.
If you wanted to tune your a to something but didn't want to use 440 what would u recommend.
Thanks for your comment! I think it depends on what music you're interested in playing, or if you just want to experiment with pitch levels.
If you're interested in just trying an A that isn't 440, A 415 is useful and appropriate for a lot of Baroque music, though not appropriate for all Baroque music, as I talk about in the video. If you're looking for something more specific based on a certain piece of music, composer, or time period and place, however, I recommend taking a look at this great book all about historical pitch levels: "History of Performing Pitch: The Story of 'A'" by Bruce Haynes. It's super detailed about what pitch levels were being used where, when, and by whom!
There's a pretty detailed preview of that book on Google Books -- you can find that here: bit.ly/3e1mdt4 -- or if you want to purchase the book, here's a link to it on Amazon: amzn.to/3mn26bM
If you use that Amazon link, it helps support my CZcams channel because I get a small amount of money back from the sale if you purchase the book, but you can certainly find the book elsewhere, as well.
Let me know if you have any other questions or if there's anything I can clarify for you! Thanks, again, for the question!
415 for most non-French Baroque music, and 392 for French Baroque music (at least if you mostly play French Baroque music).
Though nowadays, with electronic keyboards, especially isomorphic keyboards, plus virtual instruments, switching between tunings and reference frequencies is pretty much no problem at all.
This is brilliantly refreshingly explained. There’s too many morons nowadays. This is perfect thank you
A mí el La a 415 me suena más a Barroco francés, con la suntuosidad y pelucas de la época 😮
Wonderful! Thank you for all of your work!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you liked the video!
I thought A409 was the parisien tone
(i made the same question in another of your videos, but it seems more appropriate here haha) what THING would you recommend for tuning a harpsichord? I was using an app called pano tuner but now it is not so great. I find out there are tuning devices but don’t know which would be better suited for tuning a harpsichord. Any advise? thank you
Thank you for your question and I’m sorry for my slow reply! I use an app called Cleartune, which is commonly used by harpsichordists. I think it’s great and it’s quite cheap-only $3.99, I believe, in the App Store! You can set it for any pitch level you like and it has a bunch of preset temperaments, or you can input your own. I also like to tune my temperaments by ear (there are some websites that can guide you in that process if you’re interested) and then just check pitches with the app. Let me know if you have anymore questions about it that I could help with!
@@harpsichord thank youuu!😁
A Baroque tuning device did exist. It was a monochord and was built in into a harpsichord, which was used by a Prince on a campaign. Tuning was calculated tempered, with marks, where to set the bridge.
For the tuning tone, it had no peg but they regulatiod the tension of the string with some weights, like a libra.
Thanks, another informative video.
So glad you think so! Thank you so much!
Very good
Thank you!
My piano is baby barque pitch 420 hertz
audio level!!!!
Alice and Early music sources are the best channels on youtube
Aw, thank you so much!!! Early Music Sources was, of course, one of my big inspirations for starting this channel!
I agree with you.
The 440 ist pathologic Braun Damage From Humans with idealistic Errors💖😂😂😂
And string instruments? Am I supposed tune my baroque violin to 465hz because you say so?
Actually 465 is too tight cause your strings would snap, so 415 is a better idea.
The whole pitch debate is a red herring to music making. It doesn't matter. Pitches are whatever nomenclature is required to bring instruments together. Often not even specific instrumentation mattered, historically. This is a modern obsession and a wholly academic angle with no real effect on music making as far as style and affect.
Actually, she explained why it has significance if you listened to the video... because different pitches generate different timbres and "character" of the sound on a specific instrument, so that the pitch/key signature of a piece has a direct effect on ther mood of the music (i.e. melancholy/dark vs open/bright, etc.)