Orbital Light Rail - the Hottest Trend in Transit?
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- čas přidán 13. 02. 2023
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An orbital light rail line could be the fast track to the loop line you've always wanted for your city. In today's video, we take a look at several orbital light rail schemes and try to figure out where this solution makes sense. Enjoy!
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
I am surprised more cities don't have a major transit ring system. A lot of Canadian cities are really crying out for this since the cities are so massive and spread out making going downtown a huge time sink.
Yeah true. Also on maps, a lot of rail corridors are visible, which I assume are probably underused. Put some TOD into the sauce and interesting things might happen.
@@91djdj Especially considering how many cities large and small have orbital highways
Same thing with major US cities
Kremlin, Boulevard (first), Garden(second), Metro, Bigger Metro, Third, Railroad rings and MKAD: looks like Moscow is a Lady of the Rings with six currently and one really soon up.
PURPLE LINE GANG!!!!!
On the Light Rail trend and as an African, it would be cool if you could go through new Light Rail developments on the continent in the last decade. Algiers, Abuja, Addis Ababa, Port Louis and Lagos are good examples which are relatively new. Abidjan, Kampala and Luanda are proposed.
Abidjan is actually currently under construction right now and is scheduled to open in 2025
Doesn't Lagos have the train cars that were going to be used for Milwaukee-Madison HSR service? I always found that funny.
@Douglas Graebner yes. Bc Wisconsin leaders passed on the project entirely. Those cars got refitted and repainted, now they in service for the Blue line in Lagos. Deep down alot of them probably regret passing that opportunity up but they are now trying to make up for lost time with an Amtrak line instead 🤷🏿♂️
@@safuu202 TBF Amtrak is pretty good when it's not being screwed over by freight rail being terrible at uh actual railroading.
Fantastic to hear about these developments - hopefully local leaders and planners across the continent can avoid making the same mistake that North American cities have made and create some even more spectacular places
Probably my favourite example of this that I’ve used is the 4/6 trams in Budapest, which create a high capacity arc on a boulevard around the inner city, that link various metro lines too. Highly used and very convenient
I think tram route 1 and 3 both have this role in Budapest in addition to the 4/6.
The 4/6 tram line’s capacity is just not enough for the passangers. We need a metro instead.
And there are also the 17 and 61 trams which complete the circle in Buda
NYC’s proposed interboro express is being planned as an orbital light rail. It should be heavy rail to allow a future extension over the Hellsgate Bridge to the Bronx
Once again NYC redlines the Bronx.
Is there anything to stop light rail from using the Hellsgate Bridge? Light and Heavy Rail can operate amongst each other perfectly easily, Sheffield in the UK and Karlsruhr in Germany both do this
@@jonathanbaker3307 Yes. FRA regulations. If the tracks touch the national network, all the rules of a real railroad apply and those dinky light rail cars don't pass. Federal law isn't going to change just for NYC.
@@IIAOPSW I actually think light rail for the IBX is not a terrible idea and FRA has waived certain parts of its rules for other passenger rail projects in the US, they could also do it for the IBX when the time is right for an extension. Also, Hell Gate used to carry 4 tracks, and conrail removed one of them in the 80s I believe, I see no reason why a new light rail track couldn't be built where the old tracks used to be should an extension ever materialize.
@@apv why do light rail for IBX when you could just move a few graves? It's an insane compromise when it's totally unnecessary.
We need to see more orbital transit routes in general...not just light rail. Too many transit systems are overly designed around a hub-and-spoke with a congested business district dominated by one-dimensional office space and fed by the lower density residential spokes. Going spoke to spoke (like in say Chicago) can be a pain even if the location is close by because you have to go downtown just to transfer. Radial loops would encourage city diversity with more mixed use residential/office/recreation/shopping/service areas.
Oh absolutely!
Chicago actually has a plan for an orbital metro (search for the Circle Line) which would connect up the various CTA and Metra lines. It's been studied, but not really pushed for funding or progress. It would use existing lines in places (in fact, the Pink line is essentially part of Phase 1 of the Circle line, by using the Paulina Connector), but has independent utility). It would actually, as proposed, be a full circle, going via the current Red Line through downtown, and would involve reworking the routes of the Purple, Brown, and Orange lines as well. However, my impression is that, beyond the Pink Line, it's basically one of those plans the CTA would like to do, but isn't a high enough priority to actually put the process into motion. The Red/Purple Modernization and the Red Line extension south seem to be where the capital funds are going.
@@waverod9275 funny enough, back in the 1950s that very same Paulina connector (that is the pink line today) ran all the way up to the division stop on the blue line. 70 years ago more of the circle line was built than it is today.
Can you guess what happened to it? Like so many other lines, the CTA tore it down and sold off the ROW to developers. Now all of that ROW is housing/buildings. Real shame.
Illogical to think walking to spoke line, riding it to orbital line, taking that to 2nd spoke line, taking that to final destination , , , that this is faster than walking to spoke line and going downtown and then riding second spoke.... A long curving path also ain't shortest line..... Orbitals are gadgetbahns.... 2. Should do show comparing density of Prison or Madrid with Toronto, about 3x less people without any stations 1km radius, , , ,. And even Spain as whole 80% drive to work. ... I just don't see any solution to beat cars this is all just fantasy and skipping of actual numbers .. 80%.... I walk 40 minutes listening to music why do y'all want a chaufear out grandparents worked 12hours and walked .....
@@mostlyguesses8385 Why would you use spain as an example and not the Netherlands ? Are you scared to show figures from actual transit focused countries ?
I live in Kaohsiung, Taiwan and the city just finished construction on exactly this kind of Circular light rail line! It utilizes large portions of the city's old freight rail right-of-way, and has multiple links to the subway and national rail network.
Not to mention, they turned the rail corridor into parks and parallel bike paths with grass on tracks. It is also one of the first completely wireless light rail systems, with a rapid battery/capacitor charging at each station. They definitely did a really nice job with it and is worth checking out if you ever visit!
Best city in 台灣, I wish I lived there instead of rainy Taipei 😓
@@albertwood8836 Agreed! I've been in Kaohsiung 5 years now, and I really love it here. Great weather and right by the ocean. Although, Taipei has a pretty awesome public transit system (and a new circular line too!)
@@cousefirst1351 I can't complain about the public transport. My favourite part is the public bikes - staggeringly cheap and almost all of north taiwan has coverage
@@albertwood8836 Agreed! The government has done a fantastic job recently with the public bikes and improving biking infrastructure. I like watching this channel (and Not Just Bikes) knowing that for the most part, Taiwan is doing (most) all the right things to improve biking and transit.
It looks quite nice, but I don’t think it’s the best transit for the city!
One note: Jokeri light rail in Helsinki which is an exaple of orbital light rail and will open this summer is replacing the busiest bus route 550. I am excited to see how public transport in Helsinki is developing with many light rail lines under construction, including the longest bridge (Crown bridges) in the country and many projects soon to enter the construction phase.
I write as a Brit who (pre-Covid) visited both Croydon and Stockholm regularly. The Tvarban has had a huge impact on Stockholm's southern and western suburbs. Tramlink has revolutionised Croydon-Wimbledon. I can remember when this line was a two car heavy rail train running just every 30 minutes.
It is also worth emphasising that both Frankfurt and Munich are planning orbital light rail/tram lines, and that Vienna has several busy orbital tram routes; note especially lines 25 and 26 east of the Danube. Berlin also has orbital tram routes, eg line M10.
it says a lot about the UK that the trams were built 20 years ago, have been a major success, and haven't been expanded since (Bromley seems such an obvious extension)
@@OhSome1HasThisName I strongly agree. There should be 'tramlink' lines all over Greater London. And not extending from Beckenham to Bromley is ridiculous.
@@OhSome1HasThisName yep, only one line is planned, into sutton, and that's not got any funding for it yet so probably won't happen for another decade at least
Yep! These projects have been hugely successful and it is surprising that more hasn’t happened!
@@_CaptainCookie and even then, that extension to Sutton really should be an extension to the Northern line, given that the tram is basically going to run as a feeder from Colliers Wood :/
As someone living in a city without any meaningful orbital public transit at all (Hannover / Germany): PLEASE give me some of those juicy circles, I'm so tired of taking tram journeys with routes shaped like a pizza slice.
😂
I currently work at a place where a circular line would be much better for me, since busses at that route are a bit awkward, and it's sometimes faster to just go in to the city and out. Ironically, the city I live in is Stockholm, but a bunch of stations farther out than Tvärbanan.
Chicago needs this SO BADLY. It's the epitome of hub and spoke design. There was a pretty series proposal to build an orbital BRT several years ago but a NINBY uprising got it successfully shut down. The person behind it, Roger Romanelli is still actively attending CDOT meetings working to dismantle all sorts of transit initiatives
There was a plan back in the early 2000s in the Chicago area to build an orbital rail line. It would’ve been operated by our commuter rail system, Metra, and would connect all the existing Metra lines together. It was gonna start in the south suburb of Matteson and connect all the way up to the north suburb of Waukegan and was gonna use existing tracks used by the orbital freight route, Elgin Joliet and Eastern Railroad, which was later bought by Canadian National. It was called the Star Line and by the mid 2000s, the route changed and it was gonna connect Joliet with O’Hare Airport. Due to poor funding, poor planning, NIMBYs, and Canadian National not approving, the plan was scrapped and forgotten about by almost anyone unless you’re a transit nerd like me
Surprised you didn't mention the Interborough Express in Brooklyn and Queens, NYC, which has actually been making progress towards reality lately 😁
The Berlin ring bahn is so incredibly useful, if you live close to a station, I do, and you combine it with a bike you can be wherever within the ring in no time...
The Interboroughe Express in nyc was just confirmed to be light rail. I get that it'll be built quickly, but I'm not sure it'll be able to have the capacity another subway line could. Also, it left out the Bronx, yet again!
I don't get it that they chose light railway instead of a London Overground type of heavy rail. Of course once the Feds get their input it will get turned to Bus "Rapid Transit" and then cancelled outright. 😡🔥😡🔥😡
@@edwardmiessner6502 it cant become bus i can bet money the tunnels are not big enough for buses i would bet buses would cost more money
Since NYC chooses light rail for the IBX, it now seems very similar to these systems. The difference is that it will be very expensive to build.
Great Video, as always! Have you ever thought about a video on the Ruhr-Area ("Ruhrgebiet") in Germany? I think it would be interesting to see all the different transit modes (RE, RB, S-Bahn, U-Bahn, Bus, ... and how they are interconnected between cities at some points. From my experience most germans often don't realize how many options there are and how well even the smaller cities are served by transit.
However the maintenance of the U-Bahn (or Stadtbahn, for that matter) tunnels is incredibly expensive for many towns in the Ruhr-area, like Duisburg, Gelsenkirchen and Mülheim an der Ruhr. Only the really big ones like Düsseldorf and Köln/Cologne, which are part of Northrhine-Westphalia, but not the Ruhr-area, can afford maintaining the Stadtbahn tunnels. So at the end it's a double-edged sword, to me at least.
@@dinohermann1887 The Ruhr transport system is excellent but the ticketing system is not. As a visiting Brit staying in Wuppertal (yes my friends and I liked transport curiosities), we wanted to visit several Ruhr towns in one day - including Düsseldorf and Essen - and so we visited the Wuppertal tourist office to get their advice about the best ticket to buy. They couldn't really help and disagreed with each other. This was pre-covid, it may be better now.
The Ruhr area is definitely one that’s deserving of a detailed video eventually
@@timw.8452 Well, I doubt, it's better now ;-) For us German residents, It's getting much easier from May, when the Deutschlandticket should start (subscription for 49 € per month to use every public transport within Germany, but not long distance services). For visitors like you, in your case, the Schöne Tag Ticket NRW (Nice day ticket) would have been the right ticket from my point of view as it includes all public transport in Northrhine Westphalia from 9 a.m. on a normal work day till 3 a.m. the following (and all around the clock on other days) and for up to 5 people.
Maybe a comparison of ticketing and fare systems in public transport could also be a topic for RMTransit as the philosophies are wide spread, but therefore, it will be a big research.
@@timw.8452 I think a day ticket will just be fine in your case.
Helsinki is also building a new orbital Light Rail line, line 550 A.K.A Raide-Jokeri
(Oh, you (kinda) mentioned it on the video)
Yes I did!
There's a suggestion been made that the Manchester Metrolink should have an orbital line, connecting the outer edges of the metrolink Map (basically using the M60 orbital motorway as a route to follow), rather than having to go into the city centre to go out again (Altrincham to Bury for example) as the current lines all go through a corridor that is the busiest in Europe (Cornbrook to St Peter's Square). I think although an orbital line would be beneficial, it should use standard trains rather than trams, and effectively be an express service between major outskirt areas
I agree. Buses can do the job in connecting neighborhoods but the trains should first and foremost connect important nodes such as district centers.
Manchester Metrolink is probably the best example of a network needing an orbital line because of the nature of the orbital towns & the semi-ribbon development between them.
There's a probe into part of one happening right now (Rochdale-Heywood and possibly onto Bury, where theres an existing national/heritage rail route). Would love to see RMTransit cover the network!
Busiest in Europe ?
??????
An orbital line would be great for Manchester!
It really needs more orbital connections. And Manchester is now big enough to need a proper heavy rail metro or Overground-style suburban rail. Metrolink is great but doesn't have the speed or capacity for these use cases.
This makes me wonder if Chicago could benefit from a system like this
Definitely, I live in the suburbs and this would definitely be scaleable from the outside suburbs in since once you get CTA access and regional rail closer to the city. But it would definitely help with traffic and intersuburban transit. Chicago used to have an electric railway that connected to Waukegan via the Lake Shore suburbs. Would love to see that again.
The London Overground is a significant achievement, since it was largely done with existing lines and existing services. It's more than just a 'Zone 2/3' Orbital, but that is a major chunk of it. I think running some light rail/tramways between some of the outer points would be useful, but not sure we will ever see it.
i also used to use the west side of the orbital - think it was operated by midland in the pre overground days. for my journey between st albans and kensington olympia. the travel time was about the same, but the price was much cheaper as it avoided the central zone.
Well it seems they are doing a half-baked version of what I proposed with 'Superloop' which tbh s pretty lame but better than nothing I guess. Geoff Marshall and co can have 'fun' doing every stop in about 8 hours. I can see Miles in Transit being all over that too.
I'd love to see a dedicated Maryland Purple Line video one day!
Purple Line in the DC area 💜
DC purple line is just the first example in our region of this. Also, a lot of cities are trying to do this with BRT, including the northern VA area with a BRT route on King St.
I really hope the Purple Line works out. Mostly as a proof of concept for something in NOVA. BRT is nice and all, but unless it's grade separated, it is not that much different than a local bus imo. Is the King st one grade separated? Or at least have its own right-of-way?
@artano2582 i’d encourage you to look into the improvements made to the van ness brt corridor in sf. while expensive and behind schedule (like everything in sf), the improvements gained without grade separation have been significant.
@@artano2582 King st BRT will have its own right of way, and (hopefully) signal priority. I say that because the Metroway “BRT” was also supposed to have signal priority but in reality it’s quite terrible. Also only about half the route has all day dedicated bus lanes and the quality stops. Also it doesn’t have off board fare payment, even at the fancier stops, so it really just feels like a regular limited stop route, not a BRT. Hopefully they don’t mess up that badly with King st, because I think when BRT is done right, it can feel a lot different.
The Greater Toronto Area could absolutely benefit from an orbital (or at least a Downtown by-pass) system. If I want to go from Whitby in the East to Newmarket or Barrie in the North, I shouldn’t have to go all the way down to Union and then all the way back up. I think using the 407 corridor where a transit line is already planned would be the easiest way to accomplish this. But I don’t think a tram would meet this need, it should be a heavy rail or Overground type system.
It's a service that GO would be perfect for. Just another regional train corridor.
Hopefully, the Atlanta Beltline will be worthy of mention someday.
It has the potential to be the poster child for orbital light rail: it forms a complete loop, connects to radial heavy rail lines, connects to lots of areas underserved by transit, and has plenty of density along it
was naively hoping it would come up. this city needs it built desperately
@wwsciffsww Unfortunately, for reasons of politics and culture, the only way it could've happened as it needed to happen is if Ryan Gravel had won $3 billion in the lottery.
the ring line in Maryland makes a lot of sense because the DC Metro caters exclusively to downtown DC. I lived in Silver Spring and if I had to take the metro to Bethesda, I'd have to hop on the red line and go all the way into DC then back out, for a trip that's only a few miles apart.
I think one thing you often leave out of your videos. Transit is highly political, at least in the US/Canada. This is why "trendy" projects often get built, because they sound good to politicians. But given this, I do think orbital lines can be massively useful.
Ever notice how all Canadian transit is either run down '50s-'70s tech or it's a super modern, super expensive line that ALWAYS connects to a shopping mall. Every time.
Clearly companies who own malls know how to control city governments a lot more effectively than other groups.
My city has pretty great public transit, but pretty much all busses and trams are catered to go radially from the suburbs to the city. Those services are faster than by car. But if you want to visit family or friends to live in other suburbs, THAN I which I had a car. Very often I complain how silly it is that I have to go all the way to the city just to go to see other people if the happen to live in an other suburb. I would l love more orbital busses or trams.
Start advocating for more!
We are absolutely hurting for orbital capacity in the DC region. The Purple Line should have been built a decade ago, and we desperately need its equivalents on the Virginia side to connect the Yellow/blue lines to the Silver/orange lines through Arlington and Alexandria.
The problem with pushing for heavy rail/metro links is that you’ll wait EVEN LONGER for alignments to get approved, NIMBYs to be appeased, and things to get built.
Would I prefer a couple of Paris Line 15 metro lines? Hell yeah. But the purple line is the limit of what is politically possible.
In my homecity of Cologne we have an orbital line (Linie 13). To be fair, it's not complete and it's kinda cental but not in the city center itself.
I kinda hope we'll someday get an outer ring, there are tracks that could be used for that.
Also one benefit that wasn't mentioned is connecting the surrounding cities in the metro area together
Yeah, we would really need an orbital line around the outer suburbs. Especially on the left side of the Rhine.
As he said Tvärbanan in Stockholm is very congested in rush hour, it's not uncommon that some parts is full and people have to wait for the next tram.
Well.. London already has 2 circles, the Circle and bits of the Overground
Sorry, you got to that!
The overground isn’t a circle at Clapham the train would have to reverse to gain the east London section to make it a circle trains from imperial wharf would have to avoid CLJ and go straight to Wandsworth road then you’ve got a true circle yes
@@hpengwyn would be a good service if they had paths for it mate 😊👍🏻
Haha, I don’t so much consider the circle line to be orbital
OMG HOW HAVE YOU MADE THIS VIDEO WITHOUT MENTIONING IBX!!!
Yeah I wish he talked about the IBX. Maybe he will make another video on it.
Well, there’s a reason I didn’t mention’
I see the Tramlink as going in and out of Croydon, as opposed to around London
Thanks for highlighting the Maryland Purple Line ( a State-managed project, not a local project), incredibly delayed and expensive as it’s turned out to be. A big benefit of which will be to connect lower income areas to several higher income employment centers. Take your point on elevated but that was never going to be feasible for both political and cost issues. Several reason costs have ballooned are delays, a flawed procurement process, a lengthy contract dispute, and typical underbidding. Definitely not a model. The good news is the public domain footage you used at 09:47 is actually outdated - the bridge shown now includes additional steel work for the elevated station platform structure. Progress!
You should look at Frankfurt's weird Regionaltangente West orbital light rail, currently in construction. A great example of stitching together different heavy rail corridors (some underused, some busy S-Bahn or mainline) with a few street running sections to avoid the need to change trains in the city centre (the selling point is mainly connecting suburbs to the airport and the industrial park, but it will also be the first rail connection over the river in the west) but it shows one of the big downsides of using light rail for a project like this - there are only limited slots left at the airport station , and using these on slow, short light rail trains is a bit of a waste
Paris actually had a heavy rail line that was a true circle, called the "La Petite Ceinture" or the Little Belt Railway, it closed due to low traffic and was replaced with feeder bus routes running roughly parallel to the corridor.
Kaohsiung (also a city in Taiwan) has an orbital light rail line that’s about to be a full circle
Yep, it’s quite strange!
The closest thing to an Orbital Light Rail in Singapore is the Circle Line, which is an underground 3 car "Mass Rapid Transit". It is terribly overcrowded during peak hours. On the eastern to northern section of the line, it serves the purpose of connecting a few large towns. From the northern to south-western section, it provides transport to a business hub (one-North station). While really expensive to construct, its certainly made the MRT system overall much more efficient, to the point we redesigned our transit map to make it a circular focal point.
I like that you mentioned the Circular Line in Taipei. I’m curious what you think of the Kaohsiung Circular LRT in southern Taiwan. It’s currently a “C” shape but it’s planned to operate as a full circle by the end of this year. Sections of the route replaced old TRA branch lines. Ridership seems decent (usually busy when I ride anyway), and it connects a lot of tourist spots around the city.
I think it depends a lot on the geography of the city. London for example is a load of small towns that grew together into one big urban area. But the towns still have their own distinct identities.
The City of London is actually the smallest city in England, and the largest town that makes up what is now London is Croydon. Of the 4m or so working population in London, around 1m work in Westminster and City of London and the other 3m work elsewhere in the city.
Some of our cities in Turkey take the idea of orbital lines seriously. For example, M11 in İstanbul is aiming to create a huge loop around the European Side of İstanbul by combining with M2 and Marmaray. The proper metro line of Ankara was built in the shape of inverted crescent and one in Konya is planned to be built that way.
Chicago needs this
I actually find the comments on the Purple Line and reference to it interesting because on the one hand it fits the model described perfectly (provided for underserved suburb-suburb trips and short hops, connect a bunch of branch metro and MARC lines) but also would make a lot of sense as a automated light metro since it goes through a lot of not very dense to moderately dense suburban areas (and TBQH, I suspect if it hadn't been initially started before automated light metro was really well known they might have gone with that). Plus an enormous chunk of the delays are down to it having the bad luck of going through one of the richest and NIMBYest neighborhoods in metro DC plus being a state project in a state where transit is a bit of a football between GOP and dem governors.
Side note: Would you consider doing a video about MARC/VRE and maybe other underutilized commuter rail systems? I've thought for a very long time that they're really not run to their full potential and could make a very big difference for the system as a whole (and the Brunswick Line in particular can even provide quasi-orbital service if it ever gets run as regional rail since it connects two suburbs on different branches of the Red Line, Rockville and Silver Spring.
(addendum because it may contradict a point now that I think about it) a much bigger chunk of the Purple Line is street running in east county and PGC, but I'd 'have to double-check the actual documents.
Properly done orbital lines tend to be the most used because of the power of ring routes in connectivity so ideally they would be able to move higher volumes more frequently than others also they need to do so at speed to make the transfers worth it so i think u would ideally have an express fast heavy rail or metro service going as fast as possiable and only stopping when they intersected a line and and then some local service on another set of tracks in a quad track set but most cities cant afford it so more like a 2 track solely express service with something like real brt or trams plugging the gaps between stations
I think San Diego’s Purple Line is supposed to fill a similar role, if/when it gets built.
Glasgow Subway's orbit has been unchanged for more than a century.
One point to mention is the balance of demand. A radial or diametric line has a peak demand in the center and lower demand on the end(s) so you have eigther to much capacity outside or to few capacity in the center.
For a orbital circle line the demand is roughly equal for the whole line, so the infrastructure and vehicles are used more efficient without the complexity of interlineing or branching
Boston can use all of the help they can get. The two highways around the city (Route 95/128 and Route 495) are long horrible drives but unless the rail is efficient and fast and has connections that link in and out of Metro Boston, it's probably a non starter.
The big wish-list items for Boston since forever have been the North-South Station heavy rail link, the Red-Blue subway connection at Charles/MGH, and some kind of substantial circumferential transit. But I think the most reasonable mode for circumferential transit would be a traditional heavy metro--which would cost a lot.
@@MattMcIrvin Matt, all good points. You'd think the "Big Dig" they also would have made the North-South Station link. I'm still scratching my head on that omission.
The new metro line in Stockholm you mentioned is about ten years away from completion, I believe. But it does connect the metro network with Älvsjö Station, which is probably the largest transit hub in Stockholm not connected to the metro. And people have wanted a connection to it from the opposite metro station, Hagsätra, since the 1960s. It's just one station, but there's always been something that stopped it. The new metro line will be built to accommodate expansion, which if that's build will might take that route, but it could also take a more circular path starting towards Hödalen, a smaller hub two stations away from Hagsätra (although nothing's decided about that).
Appreciated the shout out for the Taipei MRT Reese! Another Taiwanese city to look at would be Kaohsiung which is finishing their light rail circle line which takes advantage of former freight rail lines to loop around the whole city.
I used to ride the yellow line in Bucharest all the time when I lived there, it was awesome for getting from one end of the city to the other, especially during rush hour when you could avoid the central city stations on the blue line.
One of my favourite transit ring systems is Seoul Metro's line 2. It's a smaller loop that basically connects to all the other lines, and connects the lines on each side of the Han river.
romania's capital bucharest has a full circle light rail of this kind, it connects every other tram lines except line 41
Can't believe you forgot mentioning the Kaohsiung MRT's Circular Line (Green line). That one is actually a complete circle.
I wish my town hand an orbital tram, we used to have one (called the Ringgleis) and it would've helped me with many trips, even when living in the center
Though they did turn it into an awesome park, so it's not all bad
Where do you live? :)
@@Brash_Candicoot Braunschweig
@@MarcLucksch Ok!
Yep, these services aren’t just useful to suburban dwellers!
So I think what you want to have in any good transit city is two lines being accessible in any place - one radial and one tangential (orbital). This leads to any trip needing at most one transfer (from a radial to a tangential line, or the other way round, or going through the center from radial to radial).
It also leads to much more flexibility: a tunnel in the center is obstructed/under maintenance? Take the tangential line going around the city center!
In my opinion one of the best examples of this is the Cologne Stadtbahn (which is completely LRT and the biggest city of the EU not to have a metro, I know). Most (9/12) lines are completely radial, but there's two rings around the center served by the other (3/12) lines. Also in the future the S-Bahn will create a third ring increasing the tangential connectivity even more! Also the tangential lines are used more than some radial ones, so there definitely is a huge need for these services.
Now that I think about it, Chicago could use something like this along Damen, Pershing, and Addison if it was LRT.
I used to commute on the Croydon Tramlink from Wimbledon to East Croydon. It took roughly the same amount of time to go on the mainline rail from Wimbledon to Croydon via Clapham Junction as it did to cut off the corner and go by tram, so depending on the crowding and delays (or if I just fancied it) I would try one or the other. Having options and redundancy is always a good thing.
Orbital light rail has one specific feature which is actually quite overlooked. It is fast for most people using it.
No, the on/near street speeds are no match for a metro, but as explained in the video, one tends to be not on them for very long.
So it suddenly starts to matter more:
- How far from my origin or destination is there is stop?
- How much time do I spend at the stop getting to the platform?
- How long does it take to transfer between lines?
With relatively short stopping distances, a simple on street platform, and connections to metro/heavy rail/etc at stops that are usually further from the core and thus more compact and accessible, using these light rail connections can be a lot faster than what just looking at a timetable can suggest.
It stands or falls with frequency though. E.g. line 19 in the Hague is an example of a "failed" orbital light rail. It has connections with other trams and heavy rail, but except for Randstadrail at Leidschenveen those all have bad to horrible frequency already. Now line 19 itself goes only every 20 minutes, even at peak. This makes it extremely slow and annoying to use, even if the line speed and alignment are not terrible.
Tram 7 in Brussels is a nice example, in fact at first it was foreseen that it would be transformed into a metro, but this will likely never happen as the high capacity tram is more than adecuate
Can you do the Newcastle (in North East England) Metro? It's barely ever mentioned - if ever - on transit CZcams shows but is a brilliant re-use of ex-railway lines and is quite extensive.
I been trying to present this ideas to many residents of cities I've lived in the past 2 years smh . It's so helpful
Coming from a Stockholm point-of-view, I think part of the reason why that interconnection was so desperately needed is due to how historically the network essentially had a star topology with Stockholm C as the hub and oftentime singular interchange (e.g. between commuter rail & metro). That's been separately improved now, but it's also a big reason why there was the need for that cross-connection compared to many other cities' metro systems that form more of a grid or have more interchanges between pairs of lines (London, Paris, NYC, various german cities, etc)
Living in Amsterdam having radial connections to avoid the center of town is much appreciated to avoid the tourists 😅
@rmtransit... I would be curious to have heard you relate this video's content to the proposed IBX service here in New York City's Queens and Brooklyn sections - recently announced as being planned as light rail (despite a public preference for heavy rail). I would be curious to hear your thoughts on the current plans for IBX in general, for that matter.
I think light rail is suboptimal
@RMTransit - The understatement of the year, lol. Unfortunately, this will add YET ANOTHER type of rolling stock (and accompanying repair facilities, supplies, training, etc) to an overall umbrella MTA that does subway (multiple R-Series generations), commuter rail (MNR/LIRR M3-M9s) and regional rail (MNR GE-P32/LIRR EMD-DE/DM), plus the two types of coaches...
AND, the light rail MTA is proposing would be overhead catenary which the MTA does have a short section of on the New Haven line prior to meeting with the NEC - but otherwise is not something seen here in NYC, especially in the immediate neighborhood the IBX would pass through...
After typing all this, I think I am now asking for a larger video on this subject this year. 🙂
I could really see something like this working in suburban Houston, e.g., Cypress > Katy > Sugar Land. It would be far enough out that construction would be much faster and cheaper than the light rail lines in the heart of the city and stops could be put in at major shopping, education, and entertainment venues. I am also mystified as to why no one in The Woodlands (posh planned community north of Houston), which already boasts decently-developed bike and pedestrian infrastructure, hasn't thought to put a tram line down the center of Woodlands Parkway. It's already a divided highway with multiple shopping and entertainment nodes and a tram line would do a lot to alleviate car traffic and add value for potential residents of all ages.
Actually Melbourne has one of the first most advanced orbital light rail in the world. A complete circle inner city and it’s also free.
When thinking about orbital rail lines two metros come to mind
1) L1 of Mumbai, Mumbai is basically a peninsula where all existing suburban rail goes in the north south direction so many people have to travel all the way south only to go back north congesting the already congested Mumbai Suburban rail network. In 2014 , metro line 1 opened which provides much needed east west connectivity. It carries 400k people a day on a small 11.5 km route.
2) delhi metro magenta line, prior to this line, anyone wanting to go from gurgaon (a city south of delhi) to Noida (a city West of delhi) both of which are decently large cities, would have to go take the yellow line north to the delhi's center and then blue line west. This was a major problem. When outer ring road of delhi was opened, people found it faster to drive between Noida and Gurgaon as compared to the metro. Plus both of those lines were already very very congested.
So a new line was built parallel to the ORR and our beloved magenta line was born. This not only saved time for metro users but also competed with driving specially as induced demand started working it's magic in ORR. It also acted as a relief for blue and yellow lines. When the pink line opened in 2020, it made the situation even better. Pink line is also an arc right now but will be full circle in a few years
I live in Phoenix and am going to ASU next year and Tempe did this. It was the decisive move that made my decision
There’s plans to build an orbital light rail here in Atlanta to run along the beltline. We’ll see if it gets built out
Very nice. Copenhagen is even planning to supplement its light rail with 2 orbital BRT lines. One further out of the town core and one closer to the town core, essentially providing a grid. Aarhus is also taking similar notes with plans for an orbital BRT line to compliment its light rail network
The Croydon Tramlink is great, but it suffers from the issue of not going to enough places. I take it occasionally, but because it's a 30 minute walk from my house, it's not super practical to take it most places.
Aside from the Trams, much of the London Overground network is orbital in nature. Main advantages I see are:
A) relieve key radial corridors and nodes at a lower cost (can often reuse old rail corridors, lower land values for property acquisition, etc)
B) promote regeneration
C) connect key transit hubs and town centres outside the city centre (eg Stratford)
D) deal with poor connectivity within a district / borough in a city / city region (it's often quicker to get to central London from outer London boroughs, than to get to the other side of that same borough!)
If you don't know...
T3 in Paris :
-wasn't cheap.
-Wasn't built fast.
-Doesn't reuse an existing old disused railway *despite having one just next to it that does the full circle that is fully grade separated from the get go and is closed since decades*
-is darn slow because it level-crosses *every* major roads entering and exiting the city. They've even *filled up an existing tunnel* so the tram can crosses path of cars. The perfect and most infuriating example of "let's build a transit systems just to make drivers life miserable"
-is of mixed success, some parts are over crowded, some parts are under-used, especially at both ends because it doesn't loop.
It is also probably one of the rare examples of a transit line cut in half that requires the user to get out of a train, to cross a *six lanes street* on foot *despite the fact there is a disused bridge just above* (of the previously mentioned disused, fully grade separated, railway) to board another train *of the same line*
It's ridiculous from end to end, and it's only because of complicated and childish political reasons.
The BeltLine would be orbital transit around the inner core of Atlanta. If we can ever get it built...
I wouldn't say the Tramlink is an orbital service for London, more of a centralised tram network for Croydon. Although obviously London does have the orbital Overground lines which do the job you're talking about very well. There have also been plans for a West London tram service using current freight lines which fit this description.
Another good example, having just returned from there myself, is Rotterdam. Line 2 has existed for a long time actually as part of the city's tram network but stays south of the river, connecting the local areas there with other cross river tram lines, the cross river metro and national rail.
There is grassroots interest in Atlanta to create an orbital light rail called the Beltline using old freight rail right-of-way. However, it seems the local transit agency, MARTA, seems to not be interested in allowing such a loop. The latest I have seen is contorting the original vision into some sort of meandering long line. I wonder if transit agencies don’t like loop lines because I would suspect scheduling would be different compared to a straight line, but maybe you can reach out to transit agencies to find out more why circular or orbital routes are not popular to build.
If u think about is... The london tramlink in croydon is an inner orbital service... all lines loop around the town centre in South London connecting all major areas and attractions (which I'm surprised there's many in that part of london) and destinations
What do you think about NY choosing Lightrail for Interborough Express?
I honestly am a big fan of it. As who grew up in both NJ and NY I always wondered why NYC doesn’t have light rail. It works very well in Newark and Hoboken/Jersey City. I think light rail is perfect for the IBX since it will mostly be on freight train tracks in Brooklyn and Queens. It probably would’ve been too expensive to run subway trains on those tracks.
I think it's a great idea! For the most part, the rail right-of-way and density fits well with a lot of the points he touched on in the video. As long as it's a medium capacity light rail line with frequent service, then I think it's a great fit.
I wrote a Substack article on the subject in detail, but I’ll I will say is that I think for a city without another high capacity orbital line that connects as many services as the IBX something more would have been nice
man i was waiting for you to talk about line 4/6 in Budapest, because it’s so iconic
In Bucharest, lines 1&10 really complete a full-orbital loop (with 1 going clock-wise and 10 anti-clock-wise or the other way around). They were previously even "escaping" the loop by de-facto starting and ending their routes at Romprim. Currently they really form a perfect circle (no pun intended) by stopping at Șura Mare instead.
I`m living in a mid-size city in Germany and always thought it had an awesome Network. We have very modern vehicles, light rail runs frequent and busses have dedicated lines.
When I moved to an other part of the city I suddendly noticed the huge problem: the cities transit is in a star-shape. So any branches lead to the very center, but there are very little diagonal connections inbetween the branches. Bevore I never noticed, because my place and my university where exactly accros through the city center. But now, for a 1km stratch I would have to go ~2km into the center and than change to annother brance wich would me take 3km out again. ~40 min by publich transport, ~5 min by car. A orbital connection - even a bus - would solve this issue.
I use the Tvärbanan in Stockholm quite frequently and prefer it instead of the more packed subway trains. Its name literally translates to The transverse line, as it operates crosswise to the otherwise radial metro and commuter rail lines of Stockholm. Stockholm is growing and experiencing urban consolidation. Further development and population growth in the city are often kept within the boundaries of preexisting urban areas rather than expanding outward into suburban areas. Here Tvärbanan really shines I would say.
If you did far enough into Edmonton's LRT planning, there was even a mid 1960's concept to reuse the cities CN and CP ROW for a North side orbital LRT line and it's still a good idea today, especially since only part of it was actually used for this purpose (NE CN ROW from downtown CN Tower/Station to Clareview)...
I gotta say I love the Tvärbanan, even though I dont regularly use it every time I do its awesome. Id even say it feels better than the metro
I think the most comfortable part compared to the metro is the street level platforms. No need to go through the station and up or down stairs. The ride isn't quite as comfortable as the modern metro trains, but definitely good enough.
In smaller cities, trolleybusses are excellent vehicle for this type of service as they can easily navigate the more difficult terrain that is to be expected on such routes, while keeping the construction and maintenance cost relatively low.
If you are looking for an Eastern European city that uses former train tracks for regular trams in portions of its network, then you may be interested to visit Ostrava. Multiple historical private freight train and tram lines were connected there into one public transportation company. Until today, you can see there trams running through woods and countryside.
I feel like the LCMTA needs something like this for Los Angeles, especially with how spread out the lines are.
I was about to mention Taipei's Circular Line in the comments, and then you mentioned it!!
Great to hear you talk about my hometown Stockholm 😊
We all complain about our transit network (most locals do, regardless of city), but at the end of the day, we like it and for the most part it's reliable.
Operational benefit of running a fast metro/regional orbit parallel and close to a tram/light-rail orbit: the trams can run at night. In Berlin, the M13 traces a quarter of the ring, for which it needs one hour, the same as the S-Bahn needs for the whole ring. But unlike the trains, the M-Trams run at night when connectivity is much more valuable than speed.
Love the enthusiasm.
Lived in London, it needs (SE) orbital lines, they miss at the end of tram/ DLR Beckenham to Lewisham would be transformative.
Maybe even join them at Eltham.
Orbital needs to get to a known radial input/output?
A fantastic example, almost archetypal, is Sydney L1 Dulwich Hill line, but it even has the benefit that it goes into the city and interchanges at Central station.
Small vehicles, moderate frequency, close stations, high quality, reused right of way, moderately high speed (60-70kph), inter suburb trips and proximity to major trip generators (schools, downtown, train stations either end, cultural/entertainment precincts).
The only thing it's missing is vehicles that don't crack after a few years of regular use XD
Love how you've used london tramlink croydon trams as the example which is the complete oppisite of orbital but nice to the thumbnail, croydon trams is my local network
(it might look like it on a map but its purpose it to get people in to the Cbd which is croydon and also to get people to other major tows such as wimbledon and bromley but the eastern section is primarly for that and link into croydon for national rail if from addington)
Yeah it has way too many local stops to be a orbital network. A better example would be the TFL overground lines I think?
@@spikethea2630 overground is a railway line not light rail, but some of them, the overground branding is a bit of a mess cause it's made up of unconnected networks that tfl just keep buying but the south London line, east London line, west London line, and North London line provide a rough orbital network
And then there's Seattle, building an orbital "BRT" that's actually just two HOV lanes in a trenchcoat for $1.1 billion
Hi Reece, great video, thank you.
I believe London Overground fits the definition of orbital much better than a Croydon Tram.
Boston needs SOME kind of circumferential transit. I don't know that a light rail on the borders of the city would do it, though--a metro arcing through Roxbury, Cambridge and Somerville, connecting to the Blue Line in Revere would make more sense. But then we're not talking about a low-cost project at all.
...Of course, the need for this has been known for a very long time--this kind of route has had both a 1970s pod gadgetbahn and a 1990s BRT scheme proposed for it.
I really hope that Montréal's Metro Orange Line is extended from Laval back to Cote Vertu thus making a perfect loop.
At the very least, extending the new Côte-Vertu garage (which is being built right now and has tunneling equipment on site) to connecte the line with the Bois-Franc REM station is absolutely necessary, and a no-brainer.
I don’t know if I’d call it perfect!
I grew up in Bethesda, MD. DC has terrible traffic, and the purple line would have dramatically improved my transit mobility and would have converted many car trips to transit.
Orbital light rail is one of the most bang for your buck options if you want to actually convert car trips to transit
That said, it would be better for metro to do a full tunneled heavy rail circle line
My hometown (Frankfurt, Germany) is currently planning to connect existing tram tracks to create a new ring line.