Installing Bronze Valve Guides Without Machine Tools using the Lisle 59000
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- čas přidán 3. 07. 2024
- I haven't had a lot of luck with my local machine shop, so today we'll look at installing bronze valve guides in a cast iron head without using any machine tools. I'll be using a no-longer-made Lisle 59000 Guide Replacement Tool set from 1978 that I borrowed from Dr. Torque.
Dr Torque's usual haunt: / motorsandmischief - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I am a accomplished DYI’er. Of the gazillion videos I’ve watched on CZcams, yours is one of the best. Thank you for your simplicity and to the point content. A great educational video.
Kelvin
Great video, I worked in a automotive machine shop and to help with installing the guide we would put them in freezer to draw them up and they would go in very smoothly
Great tip, I'll definitely do that on the next one.
Honda used to suggest heating up the head until 300 degrees AND put the guides in the freezer too.
I put dry sleeves in freezer also, it’s fast and on the money every thing
yep. i do that to shrink stuff. surprised he didn't think of doing it. seems the obvious path to take.
@@philliphall5198 I was about to say, same thing on cylinder sleeves. Take a rubber hammer to it and it's a lot easier after a visit to the freezer.
fantastic totorial, a person could install new valave guides following your video, thank you sir.
Great instructional video!....I've been looking for seat and guide tools myself.....thanks much for all the tips.....
Great Video.
I have that Set from Lisle but didnt know how to use it.
Thank You very much from germany. 😊
I used to build engines for friends at work and my own for hobby restorations. I found someone selling a Quickway boring bar with tooling and Sioux valve and valve seat grinder - similar to equipment I used in a small shop in the early '70's - that they bought at a going out of business auction. You can get very respectable results from "old timey" tools if you take your time. I found specialty tools and even teflon valve seals at Goodson when necessary. Thanks for sharing this Lisle tool. My final sizing hone is from Lisle. A seat cutter set would be a great find for sure!
Look into neway cutters! I own a small motorcycle shop, it was a great investment. Just a cutter and a pilot bearing.
Thanks for doing this video, I've always wondered how this was done.
Another interesting and informative video. It is very well produced and helped me out allot!
Great video. Being able to repair anything will be incredibly valuable in the coming times. Heads and auto transmissions are the only things I consistently farm out, but I'm thinking I'll try my hand at this on a set of 302 heads I have. Thanks for sharing this.
With a few tools, heads really aren't that hard if you're not building full race engines.
It really sucks that machine shops are not great in every part of the US.
Awesome video. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge.
thank you from nw107hu london england.very well explained and demonstrated ..
Cutting the valve seats after the guide work is done is essential, sometimes it’s pretty damn close but most of the time it’s off and should be addressed with a seat cut to bring it back within spec. On professional equipment it’s more accurate but still there are times when you really need cut the seat. Keep on rockin
Well done Sir ! Thank you very much for sharing your tips.
I bought a Lisle 59000 just a few months ago, but haven't used it yet. I called Lisle to see if they had anything at all for it and the only thing the guy found was a operator's manual. It must have been the earliest version from back in 1976. I have seen three different "C" Clamp designs for this kit. The first was steel, 2nd was cast iron with no angled reinforcement ribs and the last and best is what you and I have. The last year Lisle had them listed in their catalog was 1991. So they started in 1976 (The Bicentennial year) until 1991. I cleaned up my manual (Like yours) and made a PDF of it and sent it Lisle in case they needed to send it out to anyone else and they would have the newest version. ..........
My manual had an old type written page stapled to it where Lisle would sharpen dull cutters for $6.00. I asked Lisle if for some reason I needed to get something resharpened, could they still do it. He said for me to email a picture of the part that needs sharpened and he could then ask their in-house shop if they could or not. ..........
All the machine shops are shutting down around me. The nearest good ones are at least 60 miles away. I got mine for the same reasons as you. One complete engine would pay for the tool. I also have both Lisle and UTI Valve Guide Knurlers and I too have been seeking a valve seat replacement. I found some old hand operated ones, but didn't trust them for my applications. ..........
Many people don't realize that old tools still work and work good. Something as simple as balancing the reciprocating parts of an engine using a paint mixing scales. Cleaning parts using electrolysis or horse feed molasses. Resurface slight imperfections on Aluminum Heads by using the old body shop DA sander glue and glue large sheets of sand paper on a tempered glass shelf. Polishing cranks with a soft rope and crocus cloth, but crocus is history now, so I went to a Cam / Crank only grinder and they gave me some old polishing belts. ..........
I'm not saying to go into business using these labor intensive methods, but if you're low income or have the time, there are a lot of things you can do yourself with very little. My biggest regret was not buying a Perfect Circle Piston Knurler when I had the chance. Those were variable pressure so if you only wanted a light mark on the skirts, then it could do it and many don't realize it creates a method of holding oil on the thrust sides of pistons. ..........
Good video, but I searched months ago; Lisle 59000 and nothing came up, because it wasn't in the title.
Great feedback! I completely agree that you wouldn't want to start a business with these tools - they're way too slow, but for one-offs they're great, and you get control over the quality.
thanks for checking with Lisle. i have one of these and the 5/16ths reamer is broken. I'm not too worried about it because in the last 42 years I've only done 1 valve job with that size. I'll know now that Lisle probably cant supply one. 59000 is now a different tool so they might not even know what to look for
@@tracycurtright2671
I ran into the same issue with the product number of 59000, but had much better results when searching with 58000 as the product number. Not better enough to find one at a price point I can justify at the moment, but better enough to keep me from getting nothing but results for the new product using p/n 59000.
To aid guide installation we had a purpose made drift for use with a hammer. Oil everything up and then put on a welding glove. The guide was put on an allen key and then the guide was frozen by LPG . The head was put into an oven at 200 deg C. It was a home oven as this was a small shop. The allen key was to jam into the gas bottle to release the gas. Put the guide on the mandrel and hammer it home really fast before it could heat up. The old guides were drilled to release the press then tapped for a thread on the spring side so a bolt could be threaded in. A drift was inserted from the seat side then drove the guides out by hitting against the bolt. We also did a lot of knurling and reaming as this is a great way to get motors working again and faster cheaper. Just found your videos and I do like the guide tool I want one now.
I still kurnal pistons for small engine and it saves boring them and buying new pistons
If LPG isn't an option - say maybe your tank just ran out, or you're doing the job in a garage during the winter and can't get around ventilation/flame/spark hazards - there's an easy solution that can work even better: a metal can, some acetone, and a few chunks of dry ice. The acetone and solid carbon dioxide react in such a way where you can get the mix to reach temperatures as low as in the neighborhood of liquid nitrogen depending on the ratio used.
I don't think LPG will get you temps that low (could be wrong), but it definitely has one advantage over the dry ice atone: immediate availability. Some folks have trouble finding a nearby source for dry ice, depending where they live. A working for that is to check with the seafood counter at nearby grocery chains. They'll often have it on-hand and sell it for next to nothing (or even give it away for free, depending on who you go to).
@@screwsinabell Nice good to know. They used to use dry ice out on site to freeze large bearings. I never thought of adding acetone.
Wonderful video, thanks a lot.
fantastic video
That's all there is to it you say.....It takes steel haggars to perform those procedures with confidence!
Good on ya man.
great informative video. thanks.
Hey, great info!
WOW, I never saw a kit like that. In the 60s I was a driver for a machine shop. Pick up an engine from a gas station at 10 AM. Have it back rebuilt by 3 PM. The gas station had it back in the car by 5PM for the customer. As I recall the shop would knurl the valve guides AND the pistons. Hot Tank ,Valve job, ring job, paint job , out the door.
Great video good job bud.
Great video
Great Video!
I've got both, the 59000 and 58000. I bought them years ago after waiting what seemed like forever for them to pop on ebay. Neither of mine had instructions, which were happily provided by an email from lisle. My drill is unfortunately broken about a half inch down the guide, NLA from lisle, so I'll call a tool shop someday and have them make me a replacement. It still worked well on the 351c heads I bought the kits for. Neat to see someone else with one and make a video with it.
Also, I used an engine stand to hold my cylinder heads when working on them. It's much better then on a bench as it's a lot more stable, and you can lock it at any angle you'd like for the work you're doing. Most heads will have bolt holes for engine accessories on the end that you bolt the stand to.
I also have the lisle 66000 valve seat cutter that I used. Another neat tool from days gone by.
,,,,,,,,,excellent presentation.....................thank you............
That was extremely educational. Thank you.
Like others have noted, you need to let your viewers know the seats need to be remachined or ground so they are aligned with the valve head.
Great video!!
Excellent!
THANKS FOR A GREAT VIDEO
Nice bud! Thank you!
the tutorial is very good.
It seems to be a bit tight, usually, the guide is at nominal size and the valve stem is calibrated a bit undersize to provide the clearance,
going so tight calls for valve sticking when the engine is driven hard, specially on the exhaust side.
Great job thanks
outstanding!
Dang, that Doctor Torque guy sounds pretty cool.
A legend in his own mind!
I've said it a million times...
Hey!
Thanks
COOP
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
If you have a propane engine it’s best to use bronze guides
Amazing
Piece of cake. I send mine out.
That was my school of thought. Awfully expensive when you have to have them done every couple years because of poor quality work, though... and when they use guide liners that fall out.
I think I've had to go back to the machine shop for everything they've done. I have zero trust any more and if it doesn't work, at least know who to blame.
@@YoshimoshiGarage Once I learned it, I stopped breaking down from poor quality workmanship.
Great video. Nice to use old tools and do it the old way. One question though, you are going to port that head before you reinstall it aren't you? Those intake ports look hideous! I have never seen such a crappy short side on a head before. Just a basic clean up will gain massive improvement.
I have seen in some machining shops that they push a ball bearing steel ball throught the guide with the airhammer to finalize the valve guide inner diameter
Interesting idea.
Id be so nervous doing this. Damn.
100k views? Uh, you're welcome...
Did you ream the guides outside the head or once you have installed them?
After installation
I have a question about cutting seats I am just learning to rebuild heads and would like to know how to measure the seats to make sure I am buying the right seat cutters
Generally speaking you want a seat cutter that has a maximum range a little bigger than your valve size. Not a lot bigger or you run the risk of it hitting the combustion chamber wall. For example my intake is 1.62 inches, which is about 41mm, so I ordered a cutter with a maximum outside dimension of 45mm.
Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge here. Very interesting to learn and if I never do the work least ill know what’s good or bad. I have a question though, is that bronze insert likely to melt during high speeds?
Not at all. Bronze melts at something like 1600F. If your head gets even close to that hot you'd have a lot more problems than the guides.
@@YoshimoshiGarage okay thanks for the reassurance
I think that guide cutter is suppose to cut in reverse direction IMO otherwise it's cutting on the back dull side. At least that's what it looks like from the video.
Yep I got two sets, one mine and one Dads but not saleing any machine stuff or tools
Great video, TYVM! That existing intake guide at 18:30 looks way off center. If you replace it this way, won't you replicate this error?
that's a casting error, the guide is centered on the valve seat, so even if the boss as-cast is off (like this one) the new one will still be centered. It still won't be centered in the guide seal, however. There are manual tools you can get to trim those down (Summit or Jegs carries them). Those tools also use the guide hole for reference, so they'd trim that even - but then the boss will be smaller and a seal won't snap in place. basically is was a factory issue that I just have to live with if I'm going to use this head (and I am, since it's already installed on the car)
@@YoshimoshiGarage When manufactured the guides are not centered on the valve seat. the guides are drilled off a specific angle from the deck at a specific spacing. The valve seats are cut after the guides are drilled. The seats are cut off the guides not the other way around. The same "offset" is why we do not use the spring seat to locate valve guide counterboring hole. (Drill for new guides) The "offset" is the reason umbrella seals were so common in the same era. As we have learned umbrella seals are not very effective over the long term. Modern replacement seals that mount directly to the valve guides are the AERA recommended sealing method. The offset in the casting is poor casting quality that was very common through the late1980`s.
hello, is it possible to buy a kit like the one you got new? Or any way to drill heads to install guides the DIY way?
I'm not aware of anyone still making a tool set like this anymore
Great Vid. Where did the bronze guides come from?
These were given to me by the guy I borrowed the guide tool from, but universals are available from places like Goodson Tools
Guys where can I find this tool in Pretoria
18:00 seems maybe easier to press the guide flush inside then cut off from the rocker side?
Maybe? Really once shorten them with the lathe, it's pretty simple.
Thanks for the video. I appreciate the effort that the maker of the tooling put into the design, but you are using a worn guide to center the tool and that seem to trouble me. I know a good machinist in my area with a Serdi.
Magnificent description and post edits. You RoCk. There's nothing else to say accept "SUB" - Oh wait.. I was already subbed. Then I'll double sub!! :O) Cheers from So.CA.3rd House On the Left.
Nice video . Clear explanations . Question : If a new valve guide is pushed in after you drilled and reamed the old worn one out , then why don't you just push the old worn one out first ? Then you don't have to drill and ream it . Also , If the new valve guide shrinks in internal diameter because it is pushed in the head , and then afterwards needs to be drilled to the correct internal diameter to be able to receive the valve stem , then why don't you drill out the new valve guide before you push it in the head , thus avoiding the risk of jamming a drill or reamer in it when enlarging the internal diameter after pushing it in the head ?
The original guides are cast as part of the head. They don't push out. You have to size the guide after installing because you don't know how much they'll compress when you press them in, plus the guide hole gets squeezed more in the middle, so it has more of an hourglass shape that needs to be reamed straight
@@YoshimoshiGarage Thanks for your answer . Maybe one more idea . Wouldn't it be more convenient if the companies that produce and build engines make the engines in such a way that all the wearable parts of the engine are easily detachable and thus interchangeable ? When these parts on the wearable places of the engine are then worn after normal usage , and the engine needs to be refurbished to get into good working specifications and tolerances again , then just taking off the worn parts and installing their new in tolerance replacements would renew the engine . Without having to drill in , or do all kinds of difficult , costly or cumbersome metalworks on the engine head or block . Would that be doable ?
Most newer engines do have guides that can be pressed out. This head is probably 40 or 50 years old.
@@YoshimoshiGarage I am an old school diesel mechanic (indentured tradesman) as part of my apprenticeship I would regularly replace valve guides, cut seats and valves. I did not replace seats however as I did not have the equipment but I did do that later on when I got access to such equipment I also repaired cracks between seats when I had that equipment and grind/flycut Cylinder head surfaces. I also installed dry liners in cylinder blocks and bored Cylinders.
Would freezing the guide make it slide in easier?
Probably
What does reaming achieve that would not be achieved with just a drill bit?
Reamers are much more accurate in size than drill bits
Reamers also cut a much more round hole ,then a drill bit.
A drill bit can travel sideways.
Hi. Have one of those but maybee need a new drill / reamer for it. Does anyone know where to get one? So far Lisle have not any answer for me.
Lisle quit making this ages ago. My guess is you'll have to buy two pieces, a drill and a reamer of the proper size. Not quite as convenient, but it would work.
Do you have any clue where to ???
Not sure what source you have where you live, but in the states McMaster Carr stocks just about everything.
Hi. Did ask them but answer: We take a conservative approach to new business outside North America. I'm sorry, but we will not accept your orders.
F***g Great...Still looking...asking Goodson Tools & Supplies...hard to live in norway when needs are in us...he he he @@YoshimoshiGarage
if that hole was perfectly aligined you would not need that tool to take out the aliginement pin when you aligine the clamp.it's not aligned. but it may be close enough, and you should never move the clamp whel your reaming/boring the head. also see how the reamer/boring is wobbeling while your drilling?? the hole isant round now,nor is it inline. do not push on the drill it will pull through. but even with wonkey guides if there tight the seat can be reground inline with the right tools&right person. and be sure to oil the cutters shaft when shortining the guide. resharpen the cutter or flip the carbides over for new cutting serface. do not let the cutter bounce, thats what effes them up. you should also hone the guides after reaming.the reamer will not be a straight hole. and no a dingle beery hone will not make a round hole. and dont forget to do the valve job after ANY GUIDE WORK IS DONE NEVER BEFORE!!!!
Great tool, but it's hard to get anymore
Yes, it's an eBay or garage sale item any more. I borrowed this one from a friend.
Bronze valve guides, where are they available?
There are a lot of places online to get them. Summit sells them, but are pretty expensive. If you know the size you need, you can get them at a lower cost at places like alexsparts.com/valve-guides/
@@YoshimoshiGarage thank you
Where can I buy one of these tools?
They haven't made it in decades, so yard sales or eBay are really the only places I've seen them. I last saw this one and the seat cutter on eBay about 2 months ago.
@@YoshimoshiGarage Thanks
One incorrect assumtion, the drill he used, he placed on 1, this is not speed button, Its torq, Simply drill will use either low torq or high torq, i would advice to use high torq, also than he complained about cutting, bit was not dull simply drill is in posittioon low torq so it wont cut as it should,
yes i dont trust machine shops they did not replace my valve guides had to do it my self all over again
I’m surprised that it looks like you cut the seats before you did the guide’s
Good eye. I originally hadn't planned on doing the guides, so I did cut the seats first. I had to go back and re-do them after doing the guides.
@@YoshimoshiGarage good video
Show the reaming please
Bonjour,je suis rectifieur,je vous assure qu’il y a beaucoup plus simple ? Pour changer les guides,1 extracteur à frapper pour le sortir,et le même extracteur à frapper pour pour le remettre en place
The original guides are part of the cast iron head. They are not pressed in. They are just machined out of the casting. He is machining out larger holes so that new guides can be pressed in.
@@DoctorTorque désolé je ne comprends pas
Il n'y a pas de guides à assommer sur la tête d'origine. Les guides sont usinés dans la fonte. Il usine les trous plus grands, afin de pouvoir enfoncer de nouveaux guides.
Merci,cela s’appelle des guides de réparation 5/100eme de plus que des guides d’origine,on extrait le guide à l’aide d’un extracteur,donc on frappe dessus le guide,on alésé le logement du guide avec un alésoir,de 2 ou 3/100eme
on place le guide de réparation sur le logement et on frappe doucement jusqu’à obtention du résultat,j’ai été formé par des formateurs qui ont toujours opéré de cette façon,et ça a toujours très bien fonctionné pour moi aussi.
Cordialement
Do you even have any idea why guides are not counterbored off of seats or even a spring seat as an indicator? Lisle figured this out and discontinued the tool. As valve guides wear they become hourglass shaped. this shape is easy to see with a dial bore gauge. As this happens the seats Wear out of round. Cutting the seats before repairing guides cuts seats off improper indication (tilted or twisted) A tapered pilot dose not correct angle from hourglass shape it just binds off of 2 points of the hourglass providing a solid point for the cutting tool to mount. A solid point not a point square to the designed seat angle. Repairing guides must be done first. Guide counterboring (drilling) is indicated off of a specific degree or angle from the deck. Counterbore are cut after angle is set with bore being indicated off of guide center (usually found with a non tapered pilot and an air float table). Core drilling should be done dry without fluid, so chips do not collect in the flutes and score the bore . Reaming cast iron is also done dry for the same chip reason. Hardened guides can be reamed with a cutting fluid but never a paste lubricant. The whole idea is for chips to fall out of the hole as to not screw up the surface of the hole being counterbored. The lisle tool completely fails this very basic machining instruction. You did an excellent job of demonstrating how to use a (poorly executed tool idea) tool to perform a job that will all but guarantee a very short or failed repair life. I am sorry you have had a bad experience with your local machine shop This is not the normal. Quality fit and finish are expensive as is skill and knowledge. All you have to do is take one out of the picture to have a poor outcome.
There's nothing stopping you from creating a video and explaining it to the world. I have faith in your abilities!
@@YoshimoshiGarage Ahh more sarcasm you are good at that. No making videos is not my thing. As machining is clearly not yours. But I explained it in short in a different comment
@@YoshimoshiGarage BAD406camaro is correct,i am a 40 year automotive machinist and you never line up on a worn seat to drill guides ever. When you do this you are actually changing the valve angle in some cases slightly because you are aligning to a worn angle. It can affect valve train geometry and wear. On excessively worn exhaust guides on a guide seat machine such as a kwikway 019,043 etc you would actually setup off the intake guides which are usually not worn and move to the adjacent exhaust guide to drill/ream. I can't count the heads i've had to correct over the years that had these lisle tools used on them. Repairs needed a oversize .530 OD guide(instead of .502),it was a complete pain and time consuming to restore the proper valve angles off crooked guide holes. Only thing worse was shops putting in thin guide liners. Will what you are doing work? yes, is it right,no ,and longevity will usually suffer. The proper way to size bronze guides is to hone them and not ream them,because brass is "springy" and reamers don't work well on them. Again you can get away with all this,as you see how engines still run with sloppy tolerances.
@@a4000t do you remember the old K-Line Shrink-it tools? they were remarkably effective in correcting bell mouth on your guides.
@@janesmith5436 No,can't say as i do,but it sounds like some sort of knurling tool,would be a temporary fix at best,the only fix for a bad or worn guide is really replacement. There were a lot of hokey tools? out there though back in the day and likely why i ended up fixing so many heads with shot guides and hammered out seats. Kind of like ridge reamers.. i mean if u had to cut the ridge off the top of a cylinder,then it doesn't need honing,its worn out and needs boring oversize.
Why not just take the guide driver and drive out the old guide instead of drilling and reaming?
These old cast iron heads aren't like newer ones. They don't have a separate guide that can be pressed out
Propane needs these to last nearly for ever
Hammering on a precision shaped Interference Fit valve Guide seems Unnecessarily brutal installation method...Wouldn't Chilling down the Valve Guide allow an Easier light Press installation ?? .....Seems this be Less Dimensionally disturbing & more Retentive....
Certainly worth trying
@@YoshimoshiGarage Hammer out ..... press in ...dry ice works wonders
That will not last long without using Retaining Compound to seal the mating of dissimilar metal to prevent Galvanic corrosion.
Sadly soon all combustion cars and trucks including classics will be banned from public streets in entire EU and Scandinavia :-(
In Germany the Green Peoples Party gave order to shorten fuel supply from 2025
on by reducing all conventional fuel stations to only one state operated central gas station per city or county. Car washs will be forbidden too because they are climate killers, now they want to slow down all the gas station pumps from 20 litre per minute to 2 litre per minute...From 2027 on in the EU certain car spare parts will be banned too....as exhaust systems, turbo chargers and even some engine and gearbox oils...California and New York will do the same from 2027 on.... So no investments should be done in oil burning cars any longer....They even created a new kind of crime here, called emissions and smoke crime.!!! (BABVVEN & TEBBVEN & BEFVO laws)!!
Internal combustion engines will always be around in the states. In the event of war no fuel and you die
This rafael never knurled no no no
Don't lube reamers ruins it
how accurately does the valve land on the seat ?
What a circus!