Gun Gripes
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
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In this video, we pit the 308 Winchester against the 6.5 Creedmoor and go over several data points to show how the Swedes and others had it right many decades ago with small-bore, higher BC projectiles when it comes to long-range performance.
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I had a choice when I got a new long range rifle. .308 or 6.5 cm, I chose .308 because of ammo availability and to take advantage of surplus ammo opportunities. The .308 will be a staple for many years to come.
308 barrels will last longer than a Creedmoor barrel. Sure, it still takes a healthy number of rounds to degrade the barrel but I selected 308 as my personal standard caliber (reloading and buying) for ALL my rifles with consideration for SHTF. A 308 weapon will outlast a Creedmoor in "sparse" repair and rebarrel situations. I have piles of 308 bullets and brass and powder. I use them in my battle rifle, my precision rifle, and can use the same bullets in 300blk. I like to keep things simple and as inexpensive as possible.
I can get out to 1100 yds with my 308 and that is fine for my purposes and it hits hard at shorter ranges.
totally. i bought a 6.5 and wish i bought a 308 because of availability.
I agree
@@BooDamnHoo I've thought of the same thing since I only own a 300blk AR. If I wanted to also reload for longer range, 308 would probably be a good pair.
@@stareagle5000 Ha! We've all been there. Reminds me of that meme about Walmart not selling 357mm ammo anymore.
I like this channel because the host(Eric and Chad) speaks loudly and clearly. Especially the pronunciation It is a good example of making a program with audiences all over the world, including countries where English is not the primary language. It also provides information that is very useful to the audience and I have been following you for many years.
he's probably partially deaf from his time as a ZOGbot
So long as 308's "replacement" cartriges are often 3 times the cost, no 308 will be just fine
And that is the best possible point that can be made
The yuppie newbie enthusiasts, who as a group (doesn't matter what sport/activity) will always over-spend on the "latest & greatest", are just a momentary fad in firearms. They will go the way of the Betamax, and might be a good source of 2d hand gear in a few years.
Creedmoor will continue to be used by regular wind-buckers, and competitors working the bleeding edge of current technology... wildcatters will promote new "hot round" candidates that competitors will try and, maybe, use for more than a season.
@@seanoneil277 Yep. Pick up a good 2nd hand piece and rebarrel in a sensible cal.
@@willybober2 hey at least the name checks out
3 times the cost with less powder, less lead, less copper and less brass. As long as people keep worshiping 6.5 CM as "the best there will ever be", the ammo prices will continue be astronomical.
6.5 Creedmoor and 308 are both great cartridges. Just know the difference between what you want and what you need. Even if you don’t, it’s hard to go wrong with either one.
Yep!
The 308 win. is a lot cheeper to shoot and I don't have a problem hitting 700 yards all day long.
I thought it was on its way out, before the pandemic there was more 6.5 than 308 on the shelf. Now I haven't seen 6.5 in 2 years but 308 is everywhere
It's because people shoot 6.5 a lot.
When I go to Scheels everybody is buying 6.5 creedmoor they always feel stupid once there's no ammo to buy with the gun 😂
@@danielpope3579 not where I live
I’ve seen 6.5 creedmoor for sale everywhere. Given not in huge quantity but it’s out there.
That's because the ammo manufacturers prioritized the NATO rounds before everything else in order to keep shelves stocked and prices down
For self defense, inside 200 yards, the 308 sound just fine. IWI Tavor 7.
For bear defense: IWI Tavor TS 12 loaded with Brenneke 12 Gauge Slugs Black Magics and Magnum Crush
Magnum Crush 3", weight 666 grains, 1604 FPS and 3804 ft. lbs at the muzzle.
A .308 will probably be as accurate as I'm ever gonna be.
@danielkreher7066 typically not the scenario, but hey, it's possible.
Great job Eric letting him talk not talking over other people… makes these videos so much better
I mean, when a young guy like myself wants a 308, I don't think it's entirely dead.
308 will be around for along time thats like saying 30-30 is dead every one i know has a 30-30 and 308
308 will never die.
You shouldn't base somethings relevance on your own bias. lol
I can agree
But I agree... My DB10 has me hooked.
everyone for the last 20 years : is 308 dead?
308 : ill be here long after you, kid
My take is this: What you guys have said is all accurate. However, I live in New England. There are next to zero opportunities to shoot past 500 in virtually the entire region, and I personally can only shoot out to 200. In places where you can hunt with rifles, your in brushy woods, up close and personal. Even in a SHTF situation, the average person will never need a gun in a hyper long range cartridge. So I'll stick with .308.
Absolutely, agree. It's the same issue with .224 Valkyrie unless you live in 🏜️. Average being the SHTH moment you will find 308, 30'06, 5.56, 223.... Not Grendel or 6.8SPC II, 6mm PRC.
Alternatively.. 350 Legend I see more of as it gains in that 200yrd range
I agree New England New Hampshire,a long deer shot is 150 yards,the lumber is thick up north,maybe in Texas
@@MichaelRoachDavid You may be surprised how many 6.8s are used in the thick stuff. It wasn't designed for use at range--inside of 350, with a compact rifle. It might be the best cartridge choice, for the AR platform, for hunting New England.
@@MichaelRoachDavid That's why you stack your primary ammo deep. I've become a Grendel guy and have a decent supply, but I still keep 5.56 and 223 stocked as well. My 12" Grendel is my primary PD and hunting gun (Georgia) and its worked out to as far as 200 yards (capable of quite more, just haven't had the opportunity). Most people mistakenly think that just because the Grendel performs well at long range that it isn't good out of a short barrel. I do also have longer barrels of course....
Agreed. And even in places where you can see for miles around (like Colorado), can you truly positively identify your target well enough at 1000yds to justify shooting?
The best part about a 308 or 6.5 creedmore is barrel life you can shoot alot before the barrel is gone..my fave hunting rifle is a super pretty (nice wood) sako in 6.5 X 55..have been eating elk for years with that cartridge
Love my .308's. Don't have many areas to shoot past 1000 yds around my area so the. 308 is perfect here.
same here
I'm not too worried about a guy 1000 yards away I get a lil concerned within 300yrds though
@@joshjohnston2986 I have zero day to day concern. I don't live in a war zone.
@@eric1138 not yet but ya never know when it's gonna pop off
@@joshjohnston2986 Smacks of a poorly hidden glee, a fetish, in favor of a horrific event.
24:37 y'all are locked in ...you guys are a goldmine. Excellent to have seen how y'all have come along. This type of sit-around and chat is great. Good change of tone and pace compared to the range vids. Keep it up, this is like listening to a low-effort book full of info front to back.
Just bought my first 308 savage last week, I love this round.
Before I even get past the intro, I would just like to say that I find 308 a very compelling round out of short barrels, that is 14-16". There aren't really any other rounds that can pack the punch it does, at that barrel length, that are also widely available.
I'm a 308 Win person. I live in Pennsylvania and use this for hunting. I've never shot further than 212 yards at game. I prefer the 308 Win, because within my maximum hunting distance the energy is better & not to mention it makes a bigger hole if I need to do any tracking.
Exactly. East of the Mississippi I’m not sure (excepting farmer’s fields) I can see over 150 yards in the woods, let alone have an unobstructed shot! 6.5 is better at 800-1,000 yards but here in the East, that’s not a realistic shot so .308 it is! (And you’re right, it does punch a bigger hole too)
308 is good Out to a thousand yards. 600 yd and less is more realistic for hunting purposes and there is really no advantage to a 65 Creedmoor over a 308 at those ranges. 600 yards is a long shot. Many people believe the 6.5 Creedmoor is Magic and is magically more accurate than a 308. That is called religious worship of a cartridge.
Yeah it is my favorite too. I am not hunting but i am shooting on the range and i do not shoot on ranges that i would need 6.5, so why should i buy a rifle with a much more expensive caliber and it is not as available as 308. So it does not make any sense for me and i just like 308. The only bigger rounds i fire are 8x57IS because of my Kar98 and 45-120 in my sharps. Everything else is under 308 or 308 if it comes to rifles. I am just not shooting on 1000yards so why should i buy it. I mean yeah if someone like it why not, but allot of people that i know has rifles in 6.5cm and shoot it on 200-300 yards wich i don't really get.
7.62 being a nato round and (240B) machine gun still in use, there will always be surplus to maintain a good price. If SHTF, it’s a nato (international) round. 6.5 creedmore I don’t think you can find it in Mexico let alone any further. The hype of 6.5 cm will wear off soon.
Great videos, guys!
Tip to make them better: When you mention another rifle, like you did the M14 Iraqi version, pop up a photo of it or a short video clip of it.
We may not ever see some of the rifles you talk about.
But a picture is worth a thousand words!
Keep going, my friends!
👍👍
1000yd is incredibly far to shoot. At over 1/2 a mile, people don't realize how insane that is unless put into perspective.
Why is it insane? In the Marines we shoot standard rifle qualification to 500 yards and our snipers train to 1000. It's not that hard.
@@davidcruz8667 While not insane, difficult would be a better word.
Comparing the ability of maybe 200,000 USMC personnel to over 300 million Average Joe/Jane’s is a bit of a joke. The Marines have had a long time to get the formula right for teaching people how to shoot a fair ways on a one way shooting range.
And out of all those Marines, how many are snipers? Not very many, and I frankly doubt the average Marine that’s qualified to 500 yards is going to suddenly be able to pick up a different rifle altogether and start immediately putting hits on target at twice that distance.
@@Verdha603 perhaps, but the Marine Corps has refined training so that it's simple and you apply the tried and true fundamentals of marksmanship to any weapon, especially the stability provided by rifles. If you apply this and shoot consistently well to 500 yards, you can do it to 1000, no problem.
This is information and practices that can be used by anybody, civilians and military alike. A good old battle rifle like the M14 and M1A variants has no trouble to 1000 yards, and it's even more consistent with a good bolt action rifle such as the M40/Remington 700, or any good quality hunting rifle.
How many snipers? We don't need many, this MOS is an enhancement and a supplement to the battle field, for obvious reasons the bulk of the fighting is performed by regular infantry. I was one, my mission was not to be part of a combined arms wall of fire, but rather to engage specific targets of opportunity mostly in an overwatch capacity to minimize surprises and enhance the safety of the troop element in general, as well as observational intelligence that helps commanders shape the battlefield to our advantage as much as possible.
Indeed, within the ranks of the entire Marine Corps we are highly competitive with each other, we'd rather show up to the Marine Ball wearing an Expert badge instead of a Marksman badge, but we all use the same techniques and procedures. You'd be surprised what you can accomplish once you discard any bad habits, assumptions, and self-doubt you might have brought with you to marksmanship training from your previous life. Most Marines will tell you that once it clicks, which is pretty fast, it's actually a lot easier than it seems.
@@davidcruz8667 You can teach someone the fundamentals properly, but I place a great deal of doubt that you can jump from 500 to 1000 yards with no problems, especially when you have to take into consideration that rounds drop significantly more past 500 yards.
Other questions worth considering are what equipment are you using; is the rifle itself accurate enough to consistently put rounds on a target at that distance (ie I doubt you’ll be able to make a 1,000 yard shooter out of someone using a Kalashnikov), is the ammunition of good enough quality to provide that same consistency (ie the difference between regular ball ammo and match ammo), can the optic reach that far (because if you look at your basic hunting rifle scope a majority of them do not even come with BDC’s in the scope, nor do many hunters even keep track of their rifles dope past 300-400 yards). The shooter can be a competent shot that knows what their doing and still fall short because they didn’t bring the right equipment for the task at hand.
To use just one of your examples, the M14/M1A can feasibly make it out to 1,000 yards, but chances are slim you’ll be using a bog standard rifle off the rack with M80 ball; your more likely to be handing them a National Match rifle with a bedded stock, target sights, if not some sort of optic, and M118 Match ammo to achieve the desired result, especially if your goal is to get rounds on target from 600-1000 yards.
Like I said, I don’t consider that kind of shooting impossible, but neither would I consider it something easy that comes to everyone quickly and with little effort involved.
@@Verdha603 OK, fair enough. Yes, a standard AK is not a good choice, nor was it intended for this purpose.
And I myself own both a National Match Springfield M1A and a standard M1A, both fitted with optics, of course, but I did address some of the issues that improve on longer distance accuracy, such as a National Match recoil spring guide for the standard M1A and unitizing the gas block assembly with the tap and drill method.
As for bedding, it does make for tighter groups with consistent alignment of the receiver action with the stock while cycling through barrel harmonics, and taking into account that the M1A's design affects the point of impact as the weapon heats up. But I have no problems with target engagement at 1000 yards, I know the rifle and what it can do and I adjust accordingly.
As for iron sights, they are fine up to about 650 yards, and you use the same procedures wether your using iron sights or an optic. Also, using a scope doesn't require a whole lot of magnification, it simply enables you to keep a tighter sight picture for distance shooting. You can start with 4X just fine, and any additional magnification is just icing on the cake, at the expense of a narrower field of view and increased perceived shaking.
And yes, once you understand what enables you to hit the bullseye at 500 yards, any distance within the limitations of the ammunition doesn't make any difference. 500 or 1000, it's the same principle.
As for BDC, you shouldn't rely on it too much, the feel of bullet drop effects as range increases is a matter of practice, not a graphic on your reticle. We use MilDot reticles, no stadia lines, numbers, or anything else, just a crosshair with dot markings, used to calculate range to target and point-of-impact adjustments, very quick and simple.
I am indeed saying that you can be a proficient shot with one type of rifle and be able to pick up any other rifle and use it just as well. But of course you must be aware of what is different from one to the other so you can factor it in once you start shooting and get used to it.
I have no problem going from my Remington 700 and borrowing somebody else's rifle on the range and hitting the target properly almost immediately. As long as the rifle is capable, and we are shooting at "normal" distances from 200 to 600 yards, there's no difference. Of course, every rifle owner zeros their rifle to themselves, as long as you know this you can compensate for differences in individual eye focal quality and sight pictures. One of the best things about these distances is that you can engage them with iron sights just fine, regardless of the weapon.
Oh, and by the way, we learn to shoot with regular ball ammunition so we're not relying on specialized match loads to accomplish the mission. They're nice to have, but logistics can do a lot of different things to what's available, so that is one of the lowest items on our list of priorities unless you need to accomplish a one-shot kill specifically designated before any shooting starts. That's when every little detail counts, which most people won't ever have to deal with.
Both have their applications and both are amazing. The advantages in advanced technology should definitely be given more credit with how much performance we can get from modern cartridges. Great video!
Last week I saw 6.5 creedmore ammo on the shelf in cabelas. It was the first real live 6.5 creed I had seen for sale in a store in 2 years. 308 has been available the whole time…
308 makes you work for it 6.5 makes a good shooter great. Both are fun on different platforms
Interesting video to watch while prepping 308 brass for reloading. The only reason I have not switched to 6.5 creed is I'm hesitant to go to another bullet. I have several 30 Cal guns and they can all use the same bullet form 300blk to 300win mag.
The 300 Win Mag, if one can handle the recoil, can duplicate 6.5 cartridges and put much more energy on target. And you will be much less likely to run out of .30 cal bullets for it.
Very smart reloader!
Both my Bolt gun and AR take .308, and use the same magazines. It is very hard to find that in many other cartridges. That said, distance shooting is a specialization and requires specialized equipment. "Long distance, the next best thing to being there!" - AT&T
When you can find .308 ammo but not the popular .30-06; I would say .308 is far from dead...
Your argument contradicts your point because of supply/demand behavior. If it’s easy to find(.308 ammo I mean- edit) one could say the supply outweighs demand. And .30-06 would be the high demand, low supply that is seeing lots of usage
Impossible to make wide sweeping statements with any credible certainty. There's about a hundred factors driving demand and availability. Both the 308 and 30-06 have been military cartridges so supply and surplus for both will be a bonus in a lot of cases. But, NATO ammo won't be the most optimal bullets or powders for hunting performance or gun cleanliness, for example.
It was nice that you guys got in the weeds on your reloading experiences. I tend to lose interest when you’re using/discussing factory ammunition which rarely applies to my shooting as a reloader. I have both calibers in my hunting lineup and it’s fair to say that I prefer my 308 in a 150 grain setup for ga based hunting. Rarely get a chance to shoot past 300 yds hunting around here. Although after experiencing the 6.5’s capability first hand that caliber would be my choice if I only could have one, ammo availability aside.
have both!
I love 6.5 and 308 but when it comes to ammo availability, good 6.5 is hard as hell to come by that's not price gouged to death.
Right when I started shooting 6.5 I could shoot American gunner for about 60-68 cent a round now fmj is over 2 bucks a shot
I agree about the 20s..
The 17s can already push the cartridge basically to it's outer limits. A longer barrel doesn't help it take the wind any more than it already does. 20s is almost mandatory to be 6.5 creed.
308 has been my favorite choice for hunting . Hard to beat for accuracy , recoil, and 30 cal punch.
It's my favorite for target shooting at distances to 500 yards and beyond. I have hit man sized targets as far away as 700 yards with an M-14, off hand with iron sights and a scope.
Out to medium distance, it's a bigger hole and a harder hit. Beyond that the sleeker high BC lose a lot less energy and movement to wind drag.
My .308 is so accurate, one time I was shooting long distance and I shot it and hit me in the back of my head. It went all the way around the world and hit me!
But.....is that what you were aiming at
Karl Friedrich Hieronymus Freiherr von Münchhausen
.308 will never die, it's just too entrenched, and it does too many things well enough.
6.5CM had a meteoric rise due to the PRS community...who have since all but dropped it for the 6mm cartridges.
Everybody and their brother runs 6.5 now. It's not just a rise, it's a household name now.
@Shop Rat #92 dasher, gt, br
@Shop Rat #92 6mmGT is the bleeding edge and likely the most efficient .243 diameter cartridge ever. 6Dasher is popular but it's also going away because it's too short to feed reliably from AICS mags.
6mm Creedmoor is also present on the scene, but GT has better accuracy nodes and burns less powder, with identical speeds.
.45 acp will bever die either, but it's far from the most popular round out there. The same will happen to 308 sooner or later. The US military is looking to either the 6.8 ( .270 cal ) round or the 6.5 cm for their next gen light machine gun. To be determined which right now. 6 months from now my guess is we'll know what's happening with that.
@@brahtrumpwonbigly7309 Very very few calibers are actually "household names" outside of the dedicated gun circles whose interests you're projecting onto everybody. 9mm, 5.56, .308, .45ACP, .44 Magnum (because movies), 12 gauge, MAYBE .38 Special, and MAYBE .50 BMG are the only ones I'd wager a random person asked on the street will have heard of.
Bought a few 308 rifles and planning to buy another. Ammo is available, decent price, excellent range and plenty of power.
Never used 6.5 and never needed to shoot anything beyond 308 capable range
Between a Ruger American and M1A .308 is one of my favorite cartridges. Ive made hits consistently out to 550 yards, longest easily available. Recently.243 has caught my eye it has some wicked velocity and nice bullet weights. My 700 .243 handloads are shooting 5/8 groups at 200 yards. Absolutely insane I love it. I do like 6.5 creed but I don’t think it’s worth the high price it’s basically a larger .243 and factory ammo costs more, not sure it’s worth it. Will I pick one up eventually probably so but I love .308 it is a true jack of all trades.
.243 is a .308 necked to 6mm, whereas the 6CM and 6.5CM are both .308s necked down, shoulders and casings blown out, so the .243 would be much more comparable to the 6CM.
@@Korruptor Creed was a necked down 30 TC.
Jason Wickersham
And the 30TC is merely a shoulder-bumped (0.047”) and re-angled, casing blown out (by a mere 0.010”) .308 WIN.
The 30TC was never produced in quantity, but there is plenty of .308 to bump, neck, and fire-form.
I had the opportunity to shoot 308 that my grandson got for Christmas from his parents. Only took 2 to 3 shots so as not to waste my grandson's ammo. I loved it! I will have to get my own. I was raised on '06 and have 270 as well, but my grandson's bolt action impressed me. Mild recoil but reasonable accuracy is a great combo.
I think choices are great to have, and the 6.5 is a very cool option. But at $2 or more a round if you can find it in stock I think I will stick to 308. For the average shooter or hunter none of these numbers matter except availability and price. When those factors change the pendulum will swing towards 6.5, until then 308 will remain King of the mountain for most.
If national match competition has taught me anything it is not to underestimate the effect of recoil on marksmanship. A rifle moves approximately 1/4 to 1/2 inch before the bullet leaves the barrel depending on the recoil velocity vs cartridge velocity. That movement must be kept consistent by keeping position and tensions consistent the greater the recoil velocity the more challenging this becomes even assuming you are not flinching. I've competed with M1, M1a and of course AR15 in service rifle competition. 22 bc sucks but it shoots circles around 30cal out to 600yds due to reduced recoil. If you use a 30cal you are simply not competitive against 22. You are shooting for score against other 30cal shooters.
bought a sig 716i couple months back so 308,7.62 is alive and well in my house.
I have the same rifle. It’s going to be my “hog smasher.”
@@jefferydebbink282 Awesome. I absolutely love mine
I bought 6.5 Creedmoors as soon as I could. My 6.5x55mm carbine ( that my dad bought for $15 in 1950 ) was getting a little rough after two generations of deer hunting.
I'm not complaining about being a 308 guy I've been finding ammo available since 2020
308/7.62 x 51 was designed as a battle rifle cartragde,tho here in New Zealand 308 is used for a lot of red deer hunting here ,time moves on and technology moves on ,the Swiss were on to it years ago with their 6.5
The .308 / 7.62 Nato will still be popular long after all the boutique cartridges have gone.
The .308 was designed as the T-65 to replace the venerable .30-06.
I remember that it was predicted that the .308 would kill off the .30-06, five decades ago.
The 6.5 family of cartridges have their uses and the heavier bullets have great sectional density for penetration as Bell proved in Africa but, they will never replace the .30 caliber cartridges.
I can closely duplicate the advantages of the 6.5 cartridges with an accurized 1903A1 when using 200 grainers. .30-06 is the third most popular cartridge and I can use the components from .308 Win. However, .308 is now king. I will save my 6.5x55 for longer shoots and windy conditions. It's hard to beat the old Swede.
In Australia, 308 is probably as big if not bigger as a legacy round as 223 (5,56) especially as we cant buy most of the 5.56 chambered gun. So we have 308 everywhere in the market and a long ownership range of rifles to come with 308. It will outstrip demand for 6.5 ammo in Australia for decades to come if not for my lifetime.
Living in the UK there's not many long ranges, especially where I live. Nearest range that allows large calibres is 100m. It will probably be my only fullbore rifle so I chose .308 partly because of the extra recoil as I wanted the full large calibre experience when shooting it 🤘 Also it just iconic, like the 45ACP, nice having just for its history!
Aren’t those calibers banned in the UK? Or are they property of the rifle range?
@@Aeroshogun No no calibres are banned in the UK, can own up to 50bmg. It's a weird misconception that goes around the US we have to store guns at a club which is not true, we just have to have them in a locked metal cabinet at home bolted to a wall 👍
@@callum9570 alright, thank you for clarifying sir.
Buy in
Cool thanks for letting me use your car
Guys, that was an awesome well rounded discussion on those 2 prolific cartridges. Each has its place and advantages or disadvantages. Very good data and specs to show which is better for what. Love your channel. I try to catch each video you put out. 👍
All the alternatives to .308 are way too expensive to ever catch on in any significant way, and militaries aren’t willing to dump all their weapons and ammo for a minor improvement. Same thing with 5.56 and 9x19.
Few people even know that .30 TC came between .308 and 6.5 CM.
The military is actually starting to use 6.5 CM. They have bolt guns, AR10s and even some 240s chambered in it. And the modification doesn't require a change to any of the guns other than a new barrel.
The U.S. Army is now using 6.5CM in special applications. Sweden started using 6.5x55 back in 1894. The 6.5CM is only a slight improvement in terms of a slightly flatter trajectory, but a big improvement in terms of rifles available in a 6.5 cartridge. I would have both a 6.5 and a .308.
.308 is still a solid choice as a do it all caliber. Availability and loading choices are unmatched, especially in the pandemic panic market.
I'm a die hard 308 fan and always will be to me the 308 will never be dead
6.5 Creedmoor a wonderful solution to a problem most of us never asked
I’ve got both 6.5 and .308. Can’t say I like one more than the other but I like the idea of pushing a heavier pill with the .308 if I’m going after anything bigger than deer. I know my own limits when shooting so all the long range benefits of the 6.5 aren’t as much of a factor for me.
Shooting high power matches, I could hit a 12 inch circle at 600 yards with my 308 with m1a using peep sights, and I wasn't even close to some of the expert shooters.
I've used .308 for years, hunting, handloads, target etc. When I started to consider a 6,5C, I did the analysis and came up with the same result you guys did. In summary the 2 cartridges are 'fairly similar' (though 6.5 has a consistent edge) out to 5 or 600 yards then the 6.5 runs away. I have many 7.62 rounds on hand and at Cabela's the other day, the shelves were loaded with 7.62x51 and no 6.5C. I have components for my 6.5 reloads so I'm shooting.
Pro tip: Get rifles chambered in both calibers. You'll be glad you did! ;-D
right.. why not just have both.. thats the conclusion i came to.
I shot high power at the end of the last century. 308 was great at 600 i could hit the spotting pins. then i picked up a like new M38 swedish mauser. i see where you guys are headed . i wished for a match rifle in 6.5x55.
I've been shooting 260 REM hand loads out of my ARMALITE AR10T with a custom 1/7 twist barrel for over two decades back when the Sierra 155gr HPBTMK were still available. Yes, the CM is better if you don't hand load, but the 260 REM is better if you do hand load; provided you have a fast enough twist barrel.
Yep. If you can afford the gunsmithing/have access to a gunsmith it is better otherwise not so.
@@wsollers1 what’s a gunsmith have to do with anything?
@@Holledel no barrels are chambered in the faster twist rates for .260. You need a gunsmith to do a custom chamber on a barrel blank to get the performance of a creedmoor off the shelf.
@@wsollers1 my 260 is a 1/8 and I’m shooting .30” groups with 147eld-m. Factory Remington 5r
@@Holledel that's because rem updated the twist rate from 1:9 (saami spec) to 1:8. at 1:8 thier basically on par with 6.5 creedmoor
I used to shoot competitively in college. The difference between a modern shooter and the methods we used have to do with attention to details. You have to dig to find the shooting gear that we used. It doesn't seem to be available now days. We would have never used a rifle on a bipod. We used a leather jacket with a strap that strapped between the jacket and the rifle. We used padded gloves to reduce the effect of heartbeat.and we wore boots to help stiffen our ankles while standing. We took all horizontal tension off the gun by moving our body to relieve any stress that might bias the recoil. Point is there were quite a few little physical adjustments that worked with the shooting equipment to make recoil reproducible. My instructor was a three tour Vietnam Master Sergeant who did sniper work. He knew what he was doing to get the bullet impact spread down to a minimum. I’m kind of amazed that I don't see the fine details discussed on some of these shooting vids. But maybe that stuff doesn't get discussed until folks get to the range. I suspect you could make a 308 work as well as a 6.5 mm with the right attention to fine details . But maybe I’m just not familiar enough with the 6.5 mm. I do appreciate your vids and information here.
Until .308 stops stopping things so effectively, I say no
It's why .380 pocket pistols are still a thing, guns and calibres have changed over the last century but people haven't changed at all.
@@agentoranj5858 hum no 9mm is more popular than.380 and .308 is the most versatile rifle cartridge on the planet it kill out to 1000 meters effectively but realistically it’s more of a 600 meter cartridge
I had a friend in the 82nd Airborne that absolutely LOVED his .243. I trusted his judgement, but ammo... .308 was good by me.
As a gun salesman I can say that no one is buying 6.5 anymore, creedmoor or prc. I cant give those rifles away. I do get asked about 308s still tho. Lever guns are the hot commodity right now, ever since the movie wind river came out
@@raw7s784 could be, all I can say is that i get asked for big bore Henry's and stainless Marlins with the grey laminate stock multiple times daily. I do sale guns in Wyoming tho so that could have something to do with it
Also the increasing amount of unconstitutional states that are trying to ban any gun with a removable magazine has brought the lever action into strong contention again.
Hard to sell guns when ammo doesn’t exist. If I were buying a rifle today, i might get a 6,8 Western since ammo is always available it seems.
Ammo is available here as well
Now that the craze is over, it is time to buy a 6.5, but only after you have a one in .308.
I had my choice between 308 and 6.5 for a hunting/long range rifle and I decided on the 6.5 for the lighter recoil and better BC. That said I don't think the 308 will ever be dead. It's one of those cartridges that will be around for generations to come.
I picked up a savage 110 in .25-06 last September and I want to load up some good handloads for it and try taking it out to longer range.
First, love the frog in the background. I have no idea why.
Next 6.5 definitely has its place but as long as 308 is significantly cheaper 6.5 will always be niche.
Why is always this OR this? .308 is not going anywhere!! 6.5 is here to stay too. There are benefits to both. I'm sticking with .308 if it ain't broken why fix it? One issue with all these high speed cartridges is barrel life.308 last a long time. The 6mm and 6.5 have maybe half the life of a .308 barrel.
They are both good if you can shoot them.
This channel is so awesome. Rip Barry
What I think is interesting is that the 6.5-55 in america has been down played for years. Then the creed more is now the holy grail for hunters. Just makes me just shake my head
Your absolutely right. They keep trying to reinvent the wheel. The Swede is the same ballistics as the Creed.
It's because the 6.5x55 isn't a catchy name, it's a military name. It isn't good for marketing here unfortunately.
It’s not about marketing. It’s about taking a cartridge and perfecting it. The 6.5-55 is a long action, not a short action. The twist rates for those barrels suck due to the technology of the time. Those 6,5 bullets were not nearly as long. 6.5 creed wasn’t a wild cat cartridge, it was designed from the ground up. People either love it or hate it.
@@Freakingstang all true, but i already have 6.5 x 55 brass, projectiles and loading dies so to get 6.5 Creednore performance i just traded my old sporterised Swedish mauser for a modern Sauer and now i can load to equal 6.5 Creedmore.
@@jeremymead8546 I have both - in gas and bolt guns. 6.5x55 is an oldie but a goodie.
Thanks fellas this video is great very informative. I appreciate you guys. Keep up the good work the grind doesn’t stop. 👍🏾
All of the replacement cartridges are massively expensive compared to 308.
6.5x55 is much cheaper than 6.5CM that is pretty much just a modern copy of 6.5x55. But it is easier to find a rifle in 6.5CM. The first bolt rifle to own is .308 however.
I love the .308. Ammo is very common and readily available. When it comes to hunting, it’s performance is very often underestimated because people automatically compare it to the .300 RUM or .300 Winchester. For distances 300 yards or less, it will do everything a .300 RUM can, while being more shooter/meat friendly.
A lot things that have been hit by .308 are dead...was that the question?
It seems to me that the 1000 yard shot is magical as a litmus test because it is "1000" yards. A magic number: 1000 yards
BUT
It would seem to me that 880 yards would be a more recognizable litmus test with the obvious title of shooting "one-half" mile.
"I can hit a target a half mile away".
Why I stick with 308 and didn't jump on the cool guy caliber of 6.5 CM? Maximum effective hunting range and ammo availability. 6.5CM loses steam about the same time a 308 starts to drop hard. So between the two, within hunting ranges, its more or less a wash. Where 6.5 CM shines is long range target shooting, which is what it was designed to do, but at those ranges it lacks desired energy. Bottom line, if your not trying to ring steel at 1000+ yards in competitive target shooting, then the rounds kind of pointless IMO.
Its not a wash in hunting 308 all day
He just showed a chart with energy at different ranges, it holds energy for far longer so your comment is not true at all, what seems to be the issue is people taking to large of game at way to long of distances.
@@fatdan172501 Yeah I can pick and choose data too. If you go to the federal website and pull up their ballistic calculator, compare the factory loads "Non typical" soft point with 140 grain for 6.5 CM, and 180 Gr for 308 Win. Same ammo line, same bullet, max bullet weight for both loadings. Now, what is debatable is what one considers the minimum energy at any given range. I define that at or around 1200 Ft pounds.. I realize that Whitetale is all the rage back east, but out West it's all about Elk.
- A 140 gr 6.5 CM at 400 yards is at 1225 pounds of energy, with a 12.9 " drop with a 300 yard zero.
- A 180 Gr 308 Win at 400 yards is at 1200 pounds of energy with a 16.2" drop with a 300 yard zero.
Like I said, the 6.5 CM starts loosing steam around the same range a 308 starts dropping hard. There really isn't much of an advantage to the 6.5 CM in the context of hunting big game. (Long range target shooting is ENTIRELY different. I'd go 6.5 CM all day) People shooting too far with the 6.5 CM while hunting is just another way of saying the same thing I did, just nicer. I realize that 6.5 CM has a HUGE almost cult like following. I'm far too practical for that when you consider ammo availability as well. Iv'e seen guys saying they haven't been able to buy 6.5 CM off the shelves in months. Meanwhile I'm up to my eyeballs in 308 in both hunting ammo, and range ammo.
@@MiddleOutdoorsman again, you’re comparing the extremes of the spectrum and talking about game that probably shouldn’t be shot with it.
I have both and I will say the 6.5 is no doubt better at long range but in real life applications especially in my area in the northeast, shooting past 500 is rare. I can connect with a 308 at 500 easily. 308 projectiles are plentiful and are compatible with alot of other calibers. I've used some 308 flat nose projectiles in my 30-30. I still single loaded them just to be on the side of caution. But yes 308 still has alot going for it. Tons of semi auto battle rifles to choose from. It's still really reliable out to 650-700 which is still really far for alot of folks. 308 suppresses well in the guns I've used them in, just as quiet as 300 black in my opinion. Granted i was using a bolt gun so it might not cycle reliably in a semi. Surplus ammo is everywhere. I was usually able to find new manufacturer m80 ball ammo during the pandemic. I think it's far from dead it's just no longer considered long range which it honestly never really should have been in the first place. It's a battle rifle and machine gun cartridge.
6.5 and 308 are both here to stay in all reality. 308 won't die off, even if it were an inferior caliber just because of availability. I own both and will continue to own both.
How can a caliber be inferior or superior? It's just a different diameter. The cartridges make the difference. The pressure and powder it can take and how long and sleek projectiles it can take.
If I had to replace my .308 I would be stuck between a 7mm-08 v .260 Remington. Mainly because I have so much .243&.308 brass my reloads would be easier. Been watching y’all since Barry taught me the cut shell slug.
RIP Barry🙏🏻
My two cents is that it isn't dead at all, just because of how absolutely numerous the rifles are now a days. In 100 years, who knows. 45-70 isn't near as popular as it used to be. Theres much better options out there than 308, but way more options with 308. Quantity over quality.
@@UserAccountID My point exactly
I’m a hunter living in the Appalachian mountains. Shooting deer with the occasional out west elk hunt. I also own a 30 caliber suppressor, and guns in 300 BLCK, couple .308s, and a 300 wm. I don’t even have a range in my area that offers over a 500yd shot. With a long existence, mountains of ballistic info, and modern bullet development, Safe to say I’m happy with sticking with .308 for the long haul.
I'm not worried about it. One of my favorite bolt guns, a sub-MOA one, is chambered in 308. When the US military discontinues its use of 7.62 Nato, then I might worry . . . some.
And, yeah, 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5mm PRC might be more accurate than 308 at very long ranges, but 308 is still a superb long-distance round, so again, I'm not worried about it. That's not to say I wouldn't like owning a 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5mm PRC bolt gun -- I would, and I plan to build at least one of those two in the near future.
I think I’ll start worrying when 308 is no longer being manufactured and now you have to rely on surplus.
@@myusername3689 That's a problem for your grandchildren.
There are some less obvious advantages to .308 but you gotta think a bit outside the box.
We take .308 to 1500 meters out of factory rifles with full expectation and delivery of first round hits to 1200 meters and first or second round hits at 1200-1500 meters. (308 can make it to a mile but personally I feel it falls off too much past 1500 meters)
Keep up the great videos!
Lol. From a 30-06 guy….absolutely not. I knew the 6.5 “man bun” (Creedmoor) would raise its head.
this guy garandes
@@covert0overt_810 from what I hear, a hot 30-06 preforms in the low 300win mag territory
Now, after watching the entire video and seeing the focus being around long range target shooting, the CM is a great round. No doubt. However, if I am building a long range rifle what in the wide, wide world of sports does the CM do that the 260 Remington or Swede doesn’t? Nothing. I am a pro Hornady guy and use their reloading components so good for them on the hype they created and they delivered excitement in the shooting world. Which, unless you rely on store bought 6.5 CM ammo, it is a good thing.
@@MarcosCaminante The 308 is not just for longer ranges. It also serves as a light anti-material rifle at close and medium ranges.
@@MarcosCaminante "However, if I am building a long range rifle what in the wide, wide world of sports does the CM do that the 260 Remington or Swede doesn’t? Nothing."
Let's see, if I go to the nearest outdoor retailer, I can for sure find a rifle in 6.5 Creed. Can't say the same for the Swede or the .260. The Swede is long-action as well. On paper, sure, both of those alternatives are great but for the vast majority of people, 6.5 CM is the way to go in that class of cartridges.
I love my AR-10 308. Thought it couldn't get any better until I built a 6.5 Grendel. In my opinion the best all around AR round and I can reach 1000 yds accurately.
Awesome video and your points are all good ones. But I'll never need a rifle to shoot 1000 yards. I want my rifle to be accurate to 300 to 400 yards and still have enough energy and the .308 is plenty enough for me. But if you are a long range shooter or shoot competition, then I can see your point. Again, this is just my personal opinion and like ass holes, everybody's got one...lol ..
Thanks
If you want be "Snoopy Sniper" and constantly shoot targets/game at 1000+ yds and willing to spend the $ on ammo, then go 6.5CM...... but if you're going to be shooting/hunting at 500yds or less and be able to afford more ammo, then go .308
your better off with a 243 or 270 for hunting
have both.
No one should be trying to shoot an animal at 1,000yds+ imo
I started out with 6.5 x 55 's in the 80's. Loved it. It was hard to supply it with ammo etc. I switched to 308 because it was a military caliber with plenty of support. I'm a happy man.
Awsome! So glad to see video on this 'cause I've been thinking about a .308 Battle Rifle, Home and Land defense SHTF, and maybe some hunting. But not really wanting to put cards on an AR15 out in the woods against dangerous game encroaching. Is slow and long term thing but I think that's the one and ammo sounds cheap enough out to 800 is good enough for my future needs. I mean 6.5 CR sounds great but for me better to save on cost. Thanks!
I love this video. I built a 6.5 Creedmoor AR-10 16" and it is MY chosen "battle" rifle but the real cherry on the top is that I have a Unintah Precision 6.5 Creedmoor 26" upper that is quick and easy to install and it is a hammer out to 1500 yards.
2 in 1 rifle system... think about it.
I have a 6.5 needmore love it super accurate. But I'm a 308 guy forever my job was shootin people in Vietnam with a M60..great cartridge for that..
Thanks for beating me to it. Was going to say that in brush you should carry your 45-70 lever gun. Old school caliber with modern bullets is impressive. Easy for short range defense and awesome performance on bears or mountain lions. Takes a bit of knowledge to shoot far, but you’ve got time to shoot that dear or moose munching in a field way over yonder.
I got a precision rifle for like 1/4 price in 308. Sooo I didn’t really have a choice. You’d have got it too.
The new SOCOM bolt action Sniper rifle comes with 3 barrels: 308 Winchester / 300 Norma Mag / 338 Norma Mag. The 308 is for training and to get used to extremes in terms of windage and drop. The other 2 are heavy pills going maximum velocity. No mention of 6.5 Creedmore except for punching paper.
Less than a minuite into the video and I'd say that while neither .308 or .40s&w are dead, .40 is much closer to death than .308.
Those .30 cal pulls are they best. And gotta love those black tip.
I have a comment that is also a question. From every resource I've found I find the 6.5 has 5,000rds or less for barrel life in a good barrel. Half or less of 7.62, so if it's only benefit is performance past 500 where the energies presented aren't really enough for taking medium/ large game, why sacrifice the longevity of the platform for gains that wont be practically used. So what is the point other that hitting steel at 1000; even militarily, why not just use a 300 for 1000+ shooting. If I have any data I've said wrong please let me know.
@ Greg Mattson - Those are intelligent questions and comments, if you don't mind my saying so. The .308 isn't as high pressure a cartridge as the 6.5 CM, nor as overbore, so .308 barrels tend to last longer without needing replacement. The .308 hangs with or even bests the 6.5 CM in terms of ballistic performance and KE out to maybe 400 yards. If you rarely take a shot at game beyond that distance, then you probably don't need a rifle/cartridge combo capable of such a shot. And you are correct that a 300 Win-Mag could easily handle something like that.
Far as military use is concerned, the Army segments their precision-sniping weapons into "light," medium" and "heavy" categories. The .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO and lighter are considered "light," with anything falling between it and the .50BMG being considered "medium" caliber, and the big 50 as "heavy." That means a 300 Win-Mag or 338 Lapua Magnum rifle would slot into the medium category. Most .308 loads used by the Army and Marine Corps are out of gas by 1100 yards/1000 meters or so, perhaps slightly quicker depending on conditions. The 300 WM can get you out to 1500 meters using the right load, with the 338 even further than that. The fifty is mostly used for hard-target interdiction but also certain specialized urban combat situations, by the Corps and the Army both.
The main selling point for 6.5 CM - and one reason why certain special ops personnel are using it - is that it offers long-range performance on par with 300 WM, i.e.,supersonic out to 1500 yards, but without the heavy recoil of the big magnum. 6.5mm (.264-cal.) projectiles are extremely efficient and slippery, and perform well in the wind in comparison to many lighter .308 loads. That said, the 6.5mm cannot compare with something like 300 WM for throw-weight of its projectile. The .264-cal. bullets top out around 150-grains, whereas .308-caliber bullets reach the mid-200 grain weight, 220-grains or even more. That means when it arrives, the bigger .30-cal. slug has more punch and inflicts more terminal damage, which is a consideration for military or LE use. However, back in favor of the 6.5 CM, it adapts well to rifles which already shoot .308 Win./7.62 NATO, and since it is a short-action cartridge, the rifle can be lighter than a magnum-type rifle in 300 WM or 338 LM. Therefore, easier to carry and easier to carry more ammo in the field.
But no doubt, the 300 WM is a very capable caliber. The late Navy SEAL Chief Chris Kyle certainly thought so, as he used a 300 WM for most of his work in Iraq. And it has been a favorite of elk hunters out West for many years, so hunters like it a lot, too. It also works well as bear medicine if that is your interest. I'd call it overkill for something like white-tail, but some disagree.
Because if you can afford to shoot out a barrel you can afford to replace it lol. For general purpose it’s not worth it, but there is a reason race cars take more maintenance, because they are tailored for a specific task. 800 and under 308 is still a extremely viable choice, if you NEED to push further, there is better choices, it’s that simple.
Keep an eye on 6,5 Grendel.
This cartridge will become a military top choice. Zastava Arms is making a Modular rifle M19 that can run on both 7,62x39 and 6,5 Grendel by switching a barrel in less than a minute. That concept makes sense. They still have a lot of 7,62x39 ammo left over and still producing it but now they started introducing 6,5 Grendel as well. This way you are not wasting surplus ammo but you still have an option of switching to a different caliber in less than a minute.
Agree, for out to 500 the 308 is best but beyond the 6mm and 6.5mm take over.
Yes sir!
most people dont walk 500 yards in the woods
@@lukethomas3296 agree. In the woods 308, 30-30, 7mm-08, 7.62x39, and 300BLK are tops.
@@lukethomas3296 .308 is good out to 600 meters actually
When deciding on what caliber ar10 to get.....ammo availability definitely made the decision easier. 308 was all over. 6.5 creedmore wasn't around. The best part is it hates expensive ammo and loves what most people would consider junk like 150 grain pmc soft point. Sub moa @100 yards w that and 150 grain Winchester soft point super x. It hates anything hornady.
Lol 150 pmc is my shit i use fmj though
I shoot the .308 for F-Class TR at 500 yards, I can meet or beat the 6.5. The 6.5 does have advantages beyond 600 yards. The Palmer shoot the .308 to 1000 yards with exceptional accuracy. Better than the 6.5, I don't know. But when I go to another cartridge, it won't be the 6.5, it will be the .284 Winchester. To me, this a superior round to the 6.5. Just my opinion and I am sure I will be torched for this.
@ Patrick C. - There's absolutely nothing wrong with .284, or for that matter, anything magical about 6.5 CM. Many PRS competitors have moved on from it, either to 6mm offerings or maybe 6.5 PRC, the newer .264-cal. cartridge which offers MVs 200 fps faster than the 6.5 CM, without beating you up too badly with recoil. Heck, going back further, there's nothing wrong with 284 Win-Mag or 260 Remington or 6.5x55/Swedish Mauser, or for that matter, 270 Winchester, all of which do some/all of what the 6.5 CM can do.
I'll stick with the vintage 6.5x55 for long range targets. 7mm is a better hunting round and has a better balance of high BC with higher energy on targets, but recoil is an issue. Heck, my antique 7mm Mauser keeps up with 7.62 Natio and it was made in 1894, but my vintage 6.5x55 is the best balance of attributes for punching paper. If you can handle the recoil, then I would agree that the .284 is a better choice.
@@tunnelrabbit2625 I have more mass to me than I should so the recoil doesn't seem to be a issue to me, not even when I shoot my M1 Garand. I haven't hunted in years. Knees won't allow me to wonder around in the hills any more. But love competition and for that matter any shooting.
@@tunnelrabbit2625 - The 7mm (.284-cal.) cartridges are great, and have many of the same attributes as the lighter 6.5's do. What's not to like?
@@GeorgiaBoy1961 Recoil and the fact that 6.5x55 is used in the outstanding Swedish Mausers I buy cheap that will do the same job will less powder, less bullet and recoil and have longer barrel and brass life. If none of that mattered, then I would use a 7mm Wetherby Mag.
I love these guys! They always change the background. Hello Kermit!
This might be addressed in the video - I'm pressed for time...
Let me see...
6.5 can only shoot 6.5...
.308 can shoot .308 *and* 7.62x51...
Simple conclusion:
No. It's not dead.
No. It won't be dead for a long time... at least for as long as the USG will have 7.62x51.
Some rounds have a niche...
Others have a solid logistical presence.
I would have both. It is not as good if you can not hit as well as one can with a 6.5. It is much quicker and easier to become proficient with 6.5. It is hard to find range time and opportunity for extended ranges. I prefer 6.5x55 as it is a better practical choice.
At 26:00, I am of the opinion that the cartridge being necked down is what leads to the throat erosion. In a necked down cartridge, a lot of unburnt, abrasive powder is exiting the cartridge at an angle that will collide with the throat rather than brush past on a more parallel trajectory.
Its cool to see newer and better cartridges still being produced so I think this is a step forward in firearms technology.
In Afghanistan we were regularly engaged by PKM firing 7.62 by 54mm at 1000 yards plus…Flat shooting cartridges are always a plus