A Biblical Response to Women Leading in The Church
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- Welcome to another Episode of Ring Them Bells!
The Southern Baptist Convention rejected Wednesday a constitutional ban on women pastors, a major victory for those within the nation's largest Protestant denomination seeking to maintain local church autonomy and soften what many considered a growing antagonism toward women in ministry.
America is at a crossroads and we need to let the Bible and Jesus be our guides. The SBC and many other western institutions still hold women back from leading in churches.
Is this Biblical?
Come explore with @NTWrightOnline , @DRMSH , @CarmenJoyImesPhD, @DiscipleDojo, and Tim MAckie of the @bibleproject
Featured inside this episode is a portion from a recent interview with an upcoming scholar Mark Reasoner. It was my favorite conversation to date! Check it out here - • Introducing The Next G...
Links to source material
1) Disciple Dojo Interview- • What does the Bible AC...
2)Bible Project Royal Priests of Eden - • Royal Priests of Eden
3) Women in Ministry Ben Witherington- • Women and Ministry, Pa...
4)@PrestonSprinkleRaw interview with Tim Mackie - • Meet Tim Mackie: Co-Fo...
5)Heiser - Edenic Ideal for Women in Ministry- • Why I Don't See A Prob...
6)Ask NT Wright- • Why women should be ch...
#womeninministry #bibleproject #prophecy #southernbaptist - Zábava
I don’t care if you’re male or female 🤷🏻♂️
Jesus taught us that ruling and reigning over another human means serving them and placing the lowest human above yourself. No matter what role you think God has given you, either leading as male or female, HE has called us ALL to be servants to all of humanity.
This is an underlying wisdom of scripture that needs our attention.
It’s hard to fight over who is leading who when you’re washing each other‘s feet👌
The Bible is not a rulebook 🔔🔥🔔
It’s apparent to me that a lot of the confusion surrounding the hottest debates in our western Christian world are all based upon people not approaching the Bible on its own terms.
This series helps us all understand the complete narrative that leads to Jesus ❤️
czcams.com/play/PLnVDnbbID1uLnTajMeMCfMSeD8ZMQNYs8.html&si=N0X2Sd1sVu2yG3Jw
I appreciate the commitment to true humility and Christian service.
I think it’s an over simplification to say the Bible is not a rulebook when it is replete with “instruction, reproof,
correction, training in righteousness, that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
It is not chaotic, but orderly.
And “what role I think God has for me” in service to others is misguided at best, if it is not in accordance with what Scripture says on a matter.
As a man, I am not equipped to “mother” my children. My wife is not equipped to “father” our children. If we say the phrase, “in Christ there is no distinction between male and female,” means “disregard any instruction regarding maleness or femaleness” we will have missed to point of the passage entirely.
@@lattaken exactly why the Bible can’t be taken as a rulebook. You just prove my point for me. Please check out the series it goes over this specifically. Approaching the Bible as a rulebook is a western evangelical invention. In order to get the truth from scriptures that God intends we must approach the Bible on its own terms. As John Walton says the Bible was not written to us, even if it was written for us, it was not written to us.
I agree completely. It’s not a rulebook. However, it is does give instruction to its original intended recipients. Otherwise, there is no reason for it to have been written an epistle, gospel, Law or Psalm at all. It spoke directly and clearly to THEM in that day, at that time. It has been preserved and translated and passed down to us; as we will pass it on to succeeding generations (if the Lord tarries).
I love the Series, and have watched everything RTB’s posts. I look for notifications daily, hoping that you’ve put out a new one. I just think this one misses the mark.
I can’t get enough of Dr Heiser and love the way you’ve picked up the mantle. The editing is great.
The fact that the survey is out there on this episode is an indication that it has probably not been as well received as most episodes.
I appreciate all their scholarship and have benefited greatly from it. I’ll agree to disagree on the issue. I wouldn’t break fellowship over this either way.
@@lattaken same! Sending love and a virtual hug your way❤️🔔✔️
Right back attcha!!❤️
What's wrong with women teaching other women & children 🤷 I am a Christian woman and im absolutely not a woman liberalist if that's a word but I know in God's eyes I am equal to men but God gave us different roles! Makes perfect sense to me 🤷✝️🙏🤗
You are equally esteemed by God but not equally equipped or set apart to lead.
I can’t thank you enough for putting this together👏
Can't wait for the documentary guys. Keep preaching The Truth!
This feminist view of life is what has gotten us into this modern mess where people can be whatever they want to be. You’ve opened up another door that leads to hell. God made two sex’s because there is a difference, and we should respect those differences.
Recent history shows us that denominations that endorse women in leadership position quickly descend to the acceptance of homosexual clergy, acceptance of sodomy and a plethora of other things that are clearly against the Bible, is that some kind of coincidence? Even if we did not have Paul's injunctions I would be opposed. I cannot believe people of good faith are willing to consign their churches to this.
You put that label on it, not Gof and not scripture. Women served in leadership in churches, even in baptist and southern baptist churches. This anti woman stance was a reaction to the feminist movement. It is mot inviolable doctrine.
Husband of one wife... bishops and Deacons....🤔....we still toil by the sweat of our brow...the ground still is cursed with thorns....the whole of creation still waits to be delivered from bondage...Eve was to be ruled over by the man... the head of the woman is man...the head over man is God.... there is a hierarchy still...some lines are a bit fuzzy...tread with care.... Miriam took the women apart from the men to worship and dance.... perhaps 'most' of womens roles were to minister to the other women and children... Of course not always, Apollos being an example....Paul had a purpose for his teachings....there is one gospel for the Jews and gentiles, Romans, Greeks etc....i cannot so easily dismiss Pauls words as cultural advise only for a particular group....his letters were shared then and for 2,000 years....i find this video's viewpoint to be not in proper balance at all.... that's my 2 cents....take it or leave it 🤔
I love the Ring Them Bells series! However, this episode is problematic.
When Brother Tim begins talking about Adam and Eve he says, “…but THEY were deceived…” with regard to the interaction with the serpent. Paul makes it clear that the woman was deceived, not the man. The man “listened to the voice” of his wife, and ate. This model leads to men deliberately disobeying God; choosing the voice of the woman over the voice of God. Women are EQUAL in value, but we different roles.
And only Adam gets the blame , not even Jesus us mentions Death coming through male and female only Adam
you wrote:
Paul makes it clear that the woman was deceived, not the man.
Yet God's wisdom is personified as a female being multiple times.
Wisdom has built her house,
She has carved out her seven pillars;
She has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine;
She has also set her table;
She has sent out her attendants, she calls out
From the tops of the heights of the city:
“Whoever is naive, let him turn in here!”
-excerpt Proverbs 9
Why do we approach these issues like we are the first generation to ever do so? The church is 2000 years old and a hundred generations have passed since the Apostles first taught this. If we just look at history we can find the truth.
And the truth is women have always had many roles in the Church, and been vital to its operation and mission, but they have not taken roles of authority except in heretical movements. They were not elders, pastors, priests, bishops, or patriarchs in any orthodox (small “o”) tradition.
The Bible never denies a woman's capability it places people in roles to create an order that reflects the Godhead and the church, now the argument that says those of us that believe in patriarchy wether full or partial select two scriptures and misinterpret them as disingenuous strawman argument I read both the Old and New testament and what I find are strong, intelligent and productive women who were wives and mothers married to strong wise and loving men who were patriarchs that is heads in their home leaders in their communities, oh! I believe those are qualifications of an elder and deacon in a local assembly.
I’ll finish watching later but my question and note to myself is how does a woman preacher know she isn’t desiring to preach as a transgression of roles, to “desire her husband(s roles)”, to take the opposite track of submission and instead take what she wants.
I see descriptive verses describing women in these pastoral or teaching roles but not prescriptive verses saying that’s right. And so it makes me pause.
An interesting comment that there would be a statement somewhere indicating a need for a prescriptive verse indicating 'rightness'. Is that a method or requirement to analyze all the instructions of Paul and other apostles? Jesus taught with dialogue, examples and parables.
The transgression of roles of the deceptive agenda of supposed "equality" that these people are feeding is the great error that they are spreading. Women will never be equal to men and that's the way God made it and for a reason. God did not make men better than women, he just gave them more responsibility and the tools to exercise that responsibility Female equality stands only as second in Satan's deception to the immortality of the soul....Be careful gents as "even the elect may be fooled" Shall I say to late?
@@mare_sheep9724 I just mean for example Moses is described as killing an Egyptian guard but he also taught the Ten Commandments given by God. Certainly one is to be followed and the other is describing what happened.
Paul taught “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” And he also described people being drunk at church.
That’s the dichotomy I’m analyzing
@@idahoduckhunter
Not everything is clear cut as we want it to be. In 1 Corinthians 7, Paul is saying that is good to be unmarried, yet that definitely goes against what God says in Genesis 2.
We literally go over that in this video. Paul’s letters are specific instructions towards specific churches in specific moments
I think you just changed my perspective. Thanks for this video.
Thank you for making a video on this topic. I'm aware that "women in ministry " has been a controversial and much debated subject recently. And going by the comments on this video, it looks like it will stay that way for a while.
I'm a fairly new subscriber to your channel. I subscribed the moment I heard that you got involved in making a documentary about life and works of Dr. Michael Heiser. I watch your videos because I'm interested in subjects you usually speak about. There are not that many Christian channels that cover the subjects you do, and the ones that do, don't do it half as good as you do. That being said, I'm glad that by you making this video I had a chance to hear Michael Heiser's, NT Wright's and Tim Mackie's thoughts on this topic.
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman
can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge's verdict could not be altered or appealed.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
A Judge was REQUIRED in scripture to judge only the hardest of cases.
Refusal to accept a Judge's verdict on any matter,
resulted in execution, according to Deuteronomy.
Check out our most recent interview with “the future of the Divine Council” czcams.com/video/7Du38r5T7lc/video.htmlsi=6HD-xa3fBLWqMJU-
I LOVED THAT VIDEO!! I haven’t heard many working to further Dr. Heiser’s views. It was exciting to hear this young man & his views. Thank you for all you do to further the Kingdom of God!! I can’t wait for more!! I’m REALLY looking forward to the documentary on Dr. Heiser!!!!
As I watch the American church I grew up in almost completely slid into complete apostasy I’m out I will find a church that just want to serve God
If women are completely equal in role from the garden then why does Eve never carry any of the responsibility of the fall of man? In Adam we all die…
Because in the Jewish mindset the word Adam encompasses all of humanity. That’s literally what the word means
@@prodigaltrev We’ve got a perfect series to anger this complex question that plagues our modern Western evangelical world. Enjoy ✌️czcams.com/play/PLnVDnbbID1uKj8p7NSebO-CQisEdC4kIa.html&si=ne3L8jpuEidqBxBT
@@ringthembells143 so woman “Eve”, was taken out of humanities side? The New Testament does not use that word in that way when describing Adam’s sin. I understand it can mean that in certain situations but that is not what it means when talking about the first man. Roman’s 5:12 makes this crystal clear.
But women bear the curse just as men. We all die. We all bear the responsibility of our sin. We all need Jesus's death and resurrection. We all are part of that one new man that Paul talks about. We are ALL human beings in need of a Savior.
@@mare_sheep9724 yes we all sin because of the fall. But we must start with what the scripture says:
“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-”
Romans 5:12
So no Eve did not share the responsibility of the fall. She shared in the consequence.
I have held both views and like Heiser, there is an ability to defend or destroy both of them. I'm at this point sort of in the middle, a 3rd view neither of them. However, my question for you and others who are saying it goes back to the garden, I agree and want to say yes and Amen, but why is it that in Adam all sinned and not in Eve all sinned? If she sinned first why is Adam the one held responsible? It says the one man sinned not the one woman. So if there was virtual equality and no male headship even in the garden why was Eve not the one held responsible in all of the OT, 2nd temple period writings, in the NT and all throughout church history? Please someone help me wrestle through this. I mean no disrespect but like Heiser I believe many of the systems theology has created are flawed and we do not have to fit nicely into one box. There can be nuanced views. Like he held for eschatology a blend of a-mill and historic pre-mill but niether of them wholly and completely.
This is because the male carries the seed, and the seed has the life. By disobeying, the life in the seed of Adam was corrupted with sin, and so it's passed on to his children. A careful reading of the passage shows that Adam was right there with her when she disobeyed, and he could have stopped her, he could have refrained himself. They were warned that if they disobeyed, they would become mortal, and when Adam partook, that's when God pronounced the curse. We do not know what would have happened if Eve ate but Adam didn't, but what's clear is it's Adam's sin that gave us death.
Also the incarnation. Jesus was born without a sinful nature through a woman with a sin nature .He was not conceived through a fallen man.
(I haven't watched the video, but am familiar with this subject.)
When all of humanity sinned, that is both Adam and Eve,
then all future humans were saddled with a sinful nature.
Neither Adam nor Eve was cursed though. Even after they sinned.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Men and women were created in the image of God,
as written in Genesis 1 before the Fall, and Genesis
5 after the Fall.
Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
-excerpt Genesis 1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. On the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them “mankind” on the day when they were created.
-excerpt Genesis 5
@@Terrylb285if what you claim is true, how could Jesus be tempted just as all other humans are?
@@miketheorganistwhat about babies born by the cells of a man and not semen? Are they sinless? Seems so but your explanation.
This segment is the best and clear explanation of what Paul wrote regarding women in ministry. Thanks for putting it all together. Great work. God bless you all. 🙌🙏👍
You are most welcome ✌️❤️🔔
I appreciate your ministry and have learned a lot from you. However, I respectfully disagree with your stance on women's ordination and leadership.
As a member of the Church of England in the UK, I have observed the significant impact of women's ordination and leadership on our church. Our church has undergone a profound transformation, and the only virtue that seems to be celebrated is egalitarianism, which promotes a radical tolerance of any sexual and moral ethics. Anyone with traditional sexual ethics and a desire for moral purity is viewed with serious suspicion. The church has essentially become a well-being cult.
It is evident that churches that have embraced this path have experienced similar trends. The consequences of their actions are apparent, and as the Bible says, "You shall know them by their fruits." In light of these observations, I can now comprehend the wisdom of Christ (and the church after him) in choosing twelve men as his disciples.
While I respect the scholars you presented in support of your arguments, I believe that their wisdom pales in comparison to the wisdom accumulated by the church over the past 2000 years.
You sure did say a lot without saying much. So you’re saying that actual teachings from the Bible and truth from scripture don’t compare to the past 2000 years of church history of holding women back. Sorry I’ll stick with the Bible and the teachings of Jesus✌️
@@prodigaltrev@ringthembells143 you dumb fucks don't even follow the entire Bible. You pick and choose whatever you want to lmao. Try not to be such a cunt.
Joseph, what you said about fruits is born out in the channel's official response to your honest points. God bless you for speaking truth that even our brethren are afraid of.
@@ringthembells143dude I got exactly the meaning of what he said it's you who are just coming back with a meaningless response he's absolutely correct. He gave you a respectful response and you reply with snark what are you going to say that the past 2000 years of Christian doctrine and teaching according to the precepts laid out in scripture was all wrong altogether? Jesus chose 12 disciples who were men the Bible affirms over and over women are not to teach over men you're twisting the meaning of scripture just to force down some sort of feminist ideology I'm shocked that you even Embrace this. Everything you have been speaking on regarding your other content is spot on but you're seriously splitting your audience with this false viewpoint
@@Dsturb85 We are not for everyone and don’t force our content on you. Thanks for watching and please feel free to keep scrolling ✌️🔔❤️
This is such an important and much needed compilation of truth by renowned, faithful, teachers and scholars. So deeply grateful.❤❤❤
You are so welcome. If you’d like that one. Check this out…czcams.com/video/VYbOY8wW3fY/video.htmlsi=FV19FFMTabQz3aLH
Great video! Thank you
Most needed teaching
Agreed!
This was a really helpful montage
1 Timothy 3:5 (KJV)
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Yeah, why is that passage ignored constantly?
@@kylestephens4133
Because of Deborah.
And also Paul believing
he was a 'father'. A false and forbidden title/position.
@@kylestephens4133Read the entire chapters in first Timothy in context
Biblical passages inform us that women should not preach in church. Paul links this to the fall. It's very clear, yet because it goes against the grain of modern culture, many people seek ways around the issue.
Choosing to follow Biblical passages that support our desires while ignoring passages that don't (or that make us uncomfortable) isn't new. It's part of being fallen humans in a fallen world.
Well said...the path to hell is paved with good intentions and personal preferences 😭
Amen 🙏🙌
Fear drip.
Yeah. Paul said the deceived one cannot teach.What a stupid logic! I thought it's the deceiver that should not teach.
"She Belongs Here" -NT Wright
I agree with most of the views of what this channel is about but to answer the Edemic roles in Genesis Paul answers that in 1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. And to dismiss these verses as just a few verses of what Paul said is disappointing! But I completely respect your position. I don’t agree
We are all one in Christ but we have different roles period I agree with you 💯
Paul's teachings are all over the place.
He writes that if a man is saved and uncircumcised
that he should not be circumcised, yet orders/instructs
Timothy to be circumcised.
Paul regarded himself as a 'father' and referred to
Christian men as 'sons' multiple times. Yet none of
his letters contain the qualifications to be a 'father'.
Referring to oneself as a 'father' was strictly forbidden
by Jesus.
Paul orders an execution, even though he had no
such authority to do so. (Not related to Stephen's death.)
Paul states that his version of the gospel is perfect,
yet had no problem with unbelievers preaching.
Apparently believing they would also preach a
perfect gospel.
Paul states he went to Arabia after his salvation
experience, yet Acts states he did not.
Essay outline on some of Paul's teachings
can be posted, if requested.
Kind of off topic from this and not sure if you have covered this elsewhere, but I’m curious on your take on this would be, would you say what is in acts 15:29 is also just for a specific group Christian’s based on the culture at the time or do you see that binding in all Christian’s still to this day? It’s a bit different to the topic in this video but I have heard some people use similar lines of reasoning expressed in the women can teach today argument to come to that conclusion. Just curious thanks again for your channel!
I dunno. Im not willing to say paul contradicted himself. Paul clarifies male and female roles in other instances. I need more clarity. I just want to be biblical. I dont care which view is right.
Yes me too , a verse that explains what the qualifications of a female elder or pastor should be would be a game changer ,and a verse warning those who would prevent women from being an elder or pastor.
We have explicit verses for Men in church leadership roles , but not one for a woman’s leadership role. It’s definitely not that they are not able ,but what does Scripture say. Before they sinned Adam and Eve both had equality status . They were both told to go be fruitful,multiply, rule over and subdue the earth . But unfortunately they both committed high treason and decided that they would determine what is right and wrong in their own eyes.they were both demoted from their positions.
You need to know 2 things.
#1) Understand Deborah and what a Judge was (I have a short free postable essay.)
#2) Understand and know, that Paul wasn't a perfect teacher.
(That is another free essay.)
Commentary with scripture, with limited opinions.
Thank you. Enjoyed that.
Mike Winger has like a 7 hour video that goes very in depth on this issue if anyone wants a deeper dive.
The whole series is actually 30+ hours.
I would characterize Mike's series as defence of complementarian views on Woman in Ministry. So just keep that in mind.
That’s a false characterization of what Mike was trying to do. He said himself in the first video that he would be egalitarian if the support was there, even that he wishes it was true. His defense is of what the Bible teaches, not a defense of being complementarian. As a result of what the Bible teaches, it inevitably sounds like a defense of complementarianism.
@@DeSalvo511 bingo
@@mimimimz6719right. And we aren't called to defend complementarianism. We are called to defend our *faith* in the saving, redemptive and restorative work of Jesus the Messiah!
Great discussion!. An eye opening discussion of the pagan context informing Paul's letter to Timothy about women is the CZcams video of 'Xenophon of Ephesus and 1 Timothy 2 (Gary Hoag) '. Very informative!
Welp... gotta go have a chat with my daughters, now 😅
Thank you for bringing this topic up.
The most interesting thing here is the appeal to Eve's role in the garden. What is God's ideal for humanity? We wrestle with an answer, then we operate on that assumption with humility until we're shown to be in error.
It is interesting to me that many comments appear to be from men. I've always wondered at this because the instructions are to women. It seems imperative that women learn how to understand, study, and act upon the totality of scripture. There is context, history, language, and translations among other factors that affect the depth, understanding, specificity, and application of the message. It seems often we are taught or instructed and then directed to seek how to apply the concepts. That seems pertinent.
Another thing I would like to add. The Carmen imes clip about what women did in Jesus time of ministry is exactly describing there God given role to be a help mate not to directly have authority in teaching men as for example like Paul had authority. This takes us back to God is the head of Christ and Christ the head of man and man the head of women. The roles of men and women are extremely clear and given in many passages of scripture. We have to be extremely careful of clinging to all the theological beliefs of men and revert back to clinging to what is actually said in the Bible. This topic is your classic ..... but it's just not fair that you get to this and I have to do this.
When Jesus was on earth the disciples weren’t leaders, so why would you say that the women weren’t? All of them were following their Rabbi, Jesus. After He went to the right hand of God, none of them were called rabbi. If it was alright for Mary to sit at the feet of Jesus to be taught, who are we to question Him about allowing her to be there? Paul had women in leadership roles in some churches. Paul’s letters need to be taken in context. What areas were they sent to, who were the people involved & etc. All of that makes a difference. We need to read the Bible on its terms, not ours.
@pattichapman7296 this whole video is reading the Bible on our terms, not the original. Our feminist culture is reinterpreting these things; not rediscovering anything. They didn't have female bishops and deacons.
@@kylestephens4133 I don’t think we’re reading Paul correctly sometimes. He sent letters to certain churches & that letter was meant for them. Women, in certain areas, had been leaders in demonic churches. They thought that made them the choice to lead churches that Paul started. He didn’t want them in leadership. In other areas Paul had female disciples. Paul valued females, just not in certain areas.
Could the verses in 1 Timothy regarding childbirth be an instruction to these formerly pagan female worshipers of Artemus who had been taught that Artemus would protect them in childbirth? Could Paul now be reassuring these new women believers that they can depend on Jeus Christ to protect them in childbirth?
Yes
Consider the great commission, it was to all people to get into that work. Who benefits most from cutting the workforce in half?
Paul had his reasons to protect women but never told them to stop doing the work did he? Sure the teachers might suffer, but doesn't mean you go look for it ... flagilism was never a doctrine.
Read carefully - Women were told to keep instructing women (not 'not teach'), the advice (language:strong suggestion - not prohibition) not teaching men was at-that-time for their protection.
Context people. Who invented this 'women shall never teach' doctrine? ... another sickness the reformation missed correcting.
I find this line of thinking disturbing!!
Wow, that sure is a Vague response to a fully engaged and informative video with tons of biblical evidence. Tell us biblically what you see wrong here
@@ringthembells143 @ringthembells143 I find it hard to type long informative thoughts on a cell phone...perhaps I will try later....I did reply to a thought earlier. In a short response ... feminism is 2nd only to the idea of the immortality of the soul as part of Satan's arsenal of deceptions.
@@dankelly8035 With respect your comment about feminism seems out of place. There was a discussion about women who are people and about how they should participate in the life of the body of Jesus Christ.
I looked up "silence" in 1 Tim 2 and I could not find a Greek definition of "leisurely" as NT Wright suggests. Someone please point me to the source that says the meaning is "leisure".
Be careful of Paul's teachings. Especially regarding
positions/titles in a church setting. I have a very long
post looking at this matter.
But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man...
If a man refused to accept the verdict of a Judge, the penalty
was execution, according to Deuteronomy.
Deborah was a Judge.
❤
Isaiah 3:12 - As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
That doesn't apply to Deborah. She was one of the
better Judges.
My people! Their oppressors treat them violently,
And women rule over them.
My people! Those who guide you lead you astray
And confuse the direction of your paths.
-excerpt Isaiah 3
When a Judge died, THEN people were led astray.
But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways.
-excerpt Judges 2
After Deborah's time in Judges 4 and 5, we see confirmation of the people
turning back and acting more corruptly than their fathers.
Then the sons of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord handed them over to Midian for seven years. The power of Midian prevailed against Israel.
-excerpt Judges 6 first two sentences (above)
Well, now I know why Mike Heiser got called home early.
I don’t think there could be a legitimate logical reason for you to ever say that phrase…
There will come a time when there will either be very few rolls. That time is not now. The male / female paradigm. Is a view of the relationship of God to humanity. Jesus to humanity. Should we tell God we will not submit to him? Should we tell Jesus. Thank you for the sacrifice, but I'm my own person and I follow only me?
The dynamics and expectations between husband and wife are not the same. The head is not the heart, and the heart is not the head. Both are important, yet different.
The apostles were not split 50/50 men and women. Is the title of the next episode. "Did God really say?"
I think his whole ministry is based on "did God really say"?
It worked on Eve, right?
I love the channel brother. I'm afraid though in this topic your moving with the masses. 1 Timothy 2:12-15 is extremely clear on this matter. I'm a gigantic fan of dr hieser and still think he is wrong on this subject. Women are even told to be submissive to an unbelieving husband. The role of the women and wives are extremely clear on both what they can do and can't do.
There is some bad theology here and just hand-waving away everything in Scripture that says otherwise. If we can wave away the teachings on men and women, we can wave away the passages on sexuality or any other teaching that bothers "modern audiences."
Watching Tom Wright struggling through 1 Tim 2 reminds me of many who want to make homosexuality between loving couples as different from what the NT condemns. I get the feeling that something within culture is driving the interpretation of the text. Also to keep saying we focus on the “little bit” that Paul says and blow it out of proportion is simply sad. We don’t decide Christian doctrine by counting verses.
Go back to the garden and you will see that God original intention is for male and female to rule this earth equally. Everything else has been diversion since the fall. And God‘s kingdom the one Jesus came to initiate an inaugurate females are just as equal as males in the priesthood of serving our king Jesus.
The last will be first and those who hold back the image of God from being complete well weep and grind their teeth at the stupidity of their actions🔔✔️❤️
I just left the episcopal church. I had a woman minister. I do not like the LGBTQ ideology in the church because of the children especially. I came into Christ in the privacy of my own home calling out to Jesus and one of the deepest paint of my life. I started reading the Bible. I was very liberal feminist. It took a lot of deprogramming, but I literally have given my life to God and now I’m in southern Baptist theological seminary, which is like the oldest seminary in the country to be a Bible teacher for children. I have tons of miracles in a lot of Holy Spirit because I’m alone, and I am celibate. It took me months to actually get to a church and my friend I grew up with because I was kind of liberal told me about the episcopal church. Initially, it was a cool experience, although it almost felt sort of like a Catholic Church compared to my dad’s Baptist Church in my hometown Athens, Georgia. In some ways, I liked the ritualistic aspect of it because I have been very pagan. In my journey are used to live in SF in the Castro. I’ve also had a transgender Landloard who is extremely psycho, because transgender people have to be on drugs for the rest of their life. Last summer I started talking to her about how I didn’t like the gender ideology with the children and I didn’t think it was right with the church. She could not handle talking to me about it and it was weird and it made me feel like it was very unprofessional because she couldn’t handle the fact that I didn’t agree with the LGBTQ in the church because the Bible says that it’s not right with God. Why do you wanna change the Bible. In the book of Ecclesiastes king Solomon states there’s nothing new under the sun. I know you guys are into all the supernatural stuff from the back in the day but you never know like we could be reliving something that we’ve already lived OK like seriously. God is a father and he made it very Pacific. The reason why he wanted men to run the church is because women are more vulnerable and we’re more susceptible to the devil. Ensure it’s not like we can do it but it’s just gonna be harder for us because we’re really emotional and we’re really empathic and sometimes that spiritual discernment can cause havoc just like what happened when we accidentally ate the fruit OK? The devil hates women more than men OK so if the devil wants to destroy the world, he’s gonna go after a woman like he did in the beginning of humanity. The devil went after the woman, because he wanted to pervert the seed of humanity. Because Eve had to reveal ability to reproduce, and then somehow came was Satan‘s spawn, and there’s literally like some other bloodline here because of that and that’s why Jesus Christ came and that’s why God’s really certain in the Pacific that you should not change the Bible and you shouldn’t have women be ministers, and what I’ve noticed is the women ministers or run in the churches for the old people generally but the other issue I believe with having women ministers running a church is the carnality aspect. Men cannot control their dicks. It’s just how it is and if there’s a woman speaking the gospel, it might be harder for them to listen to them and I’m just saying it’s how it is I believe it’s a man’s world we came from a father. I’m cool with that. I used to be a liberal feminist. I had such a hard time in my career I live really had so much tribulation. I was chasing the goddess and all this crap OK in this age which is off from Satan, and Satan, was the original feminist you know it’s just how it is I don’t care I’m here to speak. The truth women are the seed bears men are supposed to go out in Work and Women are supposed to raise the babies and take care of their homes and you know what the women that do that I can guarantee you or happier than the women that are trying to be with a man are supposed to be. So I got baptized a couple months after I tried to talk to my episcopal minister about that whole the transgender thing. We had to wait for the bishop to get for a visit in the file to do the baptism for some reason. I had also done a different baptism, but I was joining the church. when the bishop came to baptize me, the service was beautiful but afterwords we had a whole talk. Her whole focus was how she let transgender people in the church, and she brought all these transgender people to Christ, and all I could sit there and think was what the I just got baptized and they’re talking about transgender people in the church because the other minister knows that I don’t think that’s right and I felt so uncomfortable and that was just a total display OK of why women should not be ministers cause this is BAD for children! So then it’s been awkward since last fall and I’ve been searching for other churches, and then I decided to go to the southern Baptist seminary because I realize that they don’t change the gospel and there’s no woke academia where things have changed over time so they’re just focusing on the gospels and the scripture like the Spirit of God wants us to. A couple weeks ago. I had been in search for another church and had joined a online church. We were still going to the episcopal church on the 8 AM service. Literally there’s like five people there and OK there’s no gay people in the church it’s not like I’m homophobic I just don’t believe I know they have transgender people running their churches and like they have gay people running their churches and I think it’s an abomination to God OK and so the deeper I go with the Bible, I’m like no this is not OK. And I could not believe they told me they had a fucking chariot in the pride parade, and it was the first time being in the pride parade in here in California and I was done and I will never go back to that church for the rest of my life. God hates pride, and the only reason why that type of ideology is allowed in the church is because of women being ministers I can guarantee you it’s BS gods a father I’m sorry women should teach Bible study to children. Maybe they can be preachers a part of the church but they should not be running a body of church. I mean I literally want to write the episcopal church and tell him my experience to be like this was nuts like transgender people have to be on drugs for the rest of their life and they’re pushing this ideology on children because Satan is trying to sterilize society OK so I’m just here as an anti-feminist anti-woman minister saying gods, a father and I don’t change the Bible I’m a true southern Baptist, and I know I got my citizenship in heaven, I can feel my glorified body connected to the heavens, is my true faith of Jesus Christ and I know that Yahwah loves that. I do not change his words because it causes havoc and it’s literally the last two verses in the Bible.
I appreciate this compilation more than you know. This provided some context and direction.
You are most welcome!
I was born again in 1975, I was then part of a very legalistic church. I had several issues that I struggled with so much. I felt very called to ministry, but as a new believer my church were correct to say he taught first. I made the 'mistake' of getting baptised with The Holy Spirit, and they though I was demon possessed sadly, so I roamed to the 'word of faith' guys eventually via the new house church movement who were very into heavy shepherding, so being a strong woman I was seen as a threat.... Fast forward to the 2000's I had been in leadership roles, but internally my struggle was intense as I felt it was wrong according to scripture, and I saw a lot of really bad stuff going on in church systems, and withdrew, but although branded a rebel I knew it was God who called and gifted me, but with my issue with leadership it seemed so unlikely... Now in 2024 I have been searching out the whole issue and very recently came across teaching such as this and also Joy and Bruce Fleming on the Genesis issue of women, now I am exploring my God given calling again and learning to lead in rest, not and peace, relaxed with who I am. It's been a very long and often painful walk but now I am actually excited about women in leadership who are called and prepared by God for such a calling. Thank you. I also just subscribed to your channel too, and I am beginning to understand so much more clearly the things Mike Heizer teaches. I am very blessed to be here on earth at this time in human history.
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman
can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge's verdict could not be altered or appealed.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
Full read time: 12 minutes postable here free
I like NT Wright , but disagree with his view on genesis that Adam was not created brand new from the dust ,but born out of ancestry of common descent.
43:12 the church is eve.
All the examples brought up from the bible are as a mother, as a prophet. Giing the news about things, reading the letter of Paul and o and on. Not once is there an example of a women preaching. I have no prob with women doing all that were used as an example but as I said, not a single example of women preaching. As a 79yr old woman saved for 36 yrs and studied in depth this issue I would like to say that unless a woman studies ,prays and seeks the Lord, then she is more open to deception than a man. Satan, as an angel of light, can easily decieve a woman. I was an occultist for 25 yrs before salvation and I can assure you how easy it is to seduce a female of any age. We have oestrogen not testosterone, it makes us vunerable. The Lord has given me gifts that I walk in so not saying we should be shut in a corner. I listen to female preachers and the Lord shows me those little lies and deceptions. Take the time to watch and listen to the majority of them preaching and then make an informed decision. ❤
Did you ever think that the evil of Satan and his minions go after women because they are the strength of this world not the weakness. The enemy knows that we are at our strongest when we are united as one flesh ruling and raining as the image of God Complete both male and female together. That’s the original status and what God put forth. This is the mold that we should be operating under. The enemy wants to separate you out sister. At 79 years old you are a valuable tool in the hands of the Lord to lead Just like a man is. Rest easy and know that on the day of the Lord you will be lifted up as Jesus puts everything right
@@prodigaltrev The question is your destructive and critical comments in no way reflect Christ Jesus so why are you involved in a discussion about members of His church?
So if Eve didn’t sin because of deception,and sinned in the same manner as Adam then 1Timothy 2:12-14 would eliminate a lot of discussion.
Talk about using a "jump to conclusions map." Or playing Chex Mix with the Bible, picking what you like and leaving the rest for someone else. Perhaps balance the discussion points to both sides. Explain what a deacon and deaconess would have done. Hint: Serve. As in quite literally help the body so others can teach. Perhaps explain that Zipporah cutting the foreskin of the son (something Moses should have done) does not make her a priest. Perhaps go through the various priesthoods: Aaronite, Zadokite, Melchizedek. There is nuance in all of the passages covered, but people are trying to make the topic of women in leadership the discussion point. This is the epitome of Eisegesis as this is not what any of the passages are saying directly. STOP inserting into the text what you want it to say. Perhaps explain the Edenic ideal - BOTH Divine Image Bearers of a Holy God. BOTH sinned. BOTH need a Savior to return back to right relationship. BOTH rule together with their own roles which the Holy Spirit, I believe, does guide. Equal Opportunity does NOT mean equal outcomes. Roles do matter. Does it make sense for a woman gifted in The Word to be a deaconess who wants to serve and teach other women. Of course. Does it make sense for Men to lead. Of course. Can I make a strong Biblical case through apostleship, the tribes of Israel, Jesus coming as a man, so on and so forth - yes, and so can you if you are not trying to confirm your own bias and allowing the text to say what it says. Cherry picking Phoebe or Junias as a deaconess or apostle is unhelpful especially when the teaching is wrong. Phoebe being a deaconess is Phoebe being a servant. Try pulling the greek verbs and adjectives out of Romans 16 and you will see it. I am a deacon at my Church as a man. You want to know what my role is? I visit hospitals and set up service ministries. Should I fight to teach? Come on! We are missing the point. Stop fighting for the best seat in the house! In Acts the teachers set up Deacons to do the stuff that keeps teachers from teaching. Junias is not listed as an apostle - making that leap is reckless. Junias along with other males and females in Romans 16 is factually a "fellow worker," and quite literally called a "fellow prisoner." BASIC Greek will show the verb that modifies the noun and the text gives absolutely no room to call Junias an apostle. Why does someone feel the need to make the text equal Women in leadership when the text itself in each and every passage is not trying to say that at all? The text is listing people who help as servants and workers in The Way that worships and leads others to Jesus the Christ; all of which in the role the Holy Spirit guides them in.
Deborah wasn't only a prophet she was also the only person who was anointed by God to hold both the office of Prophet and Judge! Judges 4:4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. 5And she would sit under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, where the Israelites would go up to her for judgment.
I wrote an informal free essay on Deborah, should you wish a study.
Read time: 12 minutes
@@user-iz8np3vv4i Yes please.
@@KL-kc3wu
Essay on Deborah, the Judge and prophetess. (Revised Dec. 2023)
Before Paul we have her story. We don't know what Paul would have
said about her. We have to read about her first and then try to understand
Paul (if possible).
This is what the people at the beginning of Christianity had to do.
They knew the story of Deborah already.
Deborah is either a meaningless exception or an important precedent,
in the debate of whether men and women are spiritually equal.
Before beginning, it should be noted that there is no
scripture stating clearly or even hinting at,
that Deborah was God's second choice. There was no man
that rejected the call to be Judge, requiring a woman to
take that place.
*************************************************************
INTRODUCTION:
Before God was rejected by Israel for the rulership of men, that is, kings,
there were different 'seasons' so to speak. One of those seasons
was the time of the Judges.
...but they have rejected Me from being King over them.
Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; and they said to him, “Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint us a king to judge us like all the nations.” But the matter was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people regarding all that they say to you, because they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being King over them. Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day-in that they have abandoned Me and served other gods-so they are doing to you as well.
-excerpt 1 Samuel 8
A Judge at this time, was VERY different from a judge in our time.
The Judge was over the nation of Israel. But not as a man, as
King, or as a woman, as Queen, because God was not rejected as King as yet.
God ruled Israel through the Judges.
Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 KJV
(In case the reader in unaware, the word pastor and the word
shepherd are the same word. I prefer shepherd, because it has
obvious meaning to the average person.)
Major modern English translations like the NASB use
the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
Some believe that pastor (or shepherd), is a position that
was created in the New Covenant. This is not true. In the Old Testament
shepherds are mentioned multiple times. Often in a negative way.
“My people have become lost sheep;
Their shepherds have led them astray.
-excerpt Jeremiah 50
For an entire chapter on worthless shepherds, the reader may
check out Ezekiel 34.
And here we see Judges ruling over Israel. Therefore we see God ruling over
the men and women of Israel, through a woman. That is, in the case of Deborah:
Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, and since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel.
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verses 9 and 10 KJV
-God speaking to Nathan the prophet
Finally:
All the Judges were men, except one. Deborah.
She was married, but her husband was not a Judge.
HER JUDGING AUTHORITY here:
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel went up to her for judgment.
-excerpt Judges 4
Deborah judged men and had the authority to execute, as
some sins in the Old Covenant, such as murder, demanded the death penalty
as the punishment.
There was no appeal to Deborah's (a Judge's) verdict:
... you shall not turn aside from the word which they declare to you, to the right or the left.
If a man rejected Deborah's decision, the penalty was execution:
But the person who acts insolently by not listening to the priest who stands there to serve the Lord your God, nor to the judge, that person shall die;...
She used the Law, therefore scripture, when judging and instructing:
In accordance with the terms of the law about which they instruct you...
She had the same authority as a Levitical priest:
So you shall come to the Levitical priests or the judge...
The location she judged was determined by God. It was not a small
cabin or cave, but outdoors. Therefore a public setting:
...go up to the place which the Lord your God chooses.
[She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country...
-excerpt Judges 4]
Also of note, she judged the hardest cases in the nation.
“If a case is too difficult for you to decide, between one kind of homicide or another, between one kind of lawsuit or another, and between one kind of assault or another, that are cases of dispute in your courts, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord your God chooses. So you shall come to the Levitical priests or the judge who is in office in those days, and you shall inquire of them and they will declare to you the verdict. Then you shall act in accordance with the terms of the verdict which they declare to you from that place which the Lord chooses; and you shall be careful to act in accordance with everything that they instruct you to do. In accordance with the terms of the law about which they instruct you, and in accordance with the verdict which they tell you, you shall act; you shall not turn aside from the word which they declare to you, to the right or the left. But the person who acts insolently by not listening to the priest who stands there to serve the Lord your God, nor to the judge, that person shall die; so you shall eliminate the evil from Israel.
-excerpt Deuteronomy 17
[END OF PARTITION 1 OF 2]
@@KL-kc3wu
THE REASON GOD SENT HER here:
...the Lord was moved to pity...
And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who tormented and oppressed them.
-excerpt Judges 2
The sending of a Judge meant God was showing mercy to His people.
It wasn't a judgment against them.
Since Deborah was a woman, this scripture is sometimes used
in error to describe her, in our time:
My people! Their oppressors treat them violently,
And women rule over them.
My people! Those who guide you lead you astray
And confuse the direction of your paths.
-excerpt Isaiah 3
They are taking the prophetess Deborah and comparing her to
Jezebel who murdered prophets.
Has it not been reported to my master what I did when Jezebel killed the prophets of the Lord, that I hid a hundred prophets of the Lord...
-excerpt 1 Kings 18
When a Judge died, THEN people were led astray.
But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways.
-excerpt Judges 2
After Deborah's time in Judges 4 and 5, we see confirmation of the people
turning back and acting more corruptly than their fathers.
Then the sons of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord handed them over to Midian for seven years. The power of Midian prevailed against Israel.
-excerpt Judges 6 first two sentences (above)
When the shepherd over Israel died, the people went back into sin.
That is because the Judge was the most important spiritual leader of this time period.
THE AUTHORITY SHE HAD OVER THE COMMANDER OF THE ARMY here:
Now she sent word and summoned Barak...
She gave the order for the battle to begin that Israel won.
Then Deborah said to Barak, “Arise! For this is the day on which the Lord has handed Sisera over to you...
Before the battle began she prophesied that a woman
would kill Sisera (the enemy commander). This happened,
as Jael, a woman not part of the battle, killed Sisera.
She said, “I will certainly go with you; however, the fame shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.”
And:
But Jael, Heber’s wife, took a tent peg and a hammer in her hand, and went secretly to him and drove the peg into his temple, and it went through into the ground; for he was sound asleep and exhausted. So he died. And behold, while Barak was pursuing Sisera, Jael came out to meet him and said to him, “Come, and I will show you the man whom you are seeking.” So he entered with her, and behold, Sisera was lying dead with the tent peg in his temple.
So what were the results of this battle?
And the Lord routed Sisera and all his chariots and all his army with the edge of the sword before Barak; and Sisera got down from his chariot and fled on foot. But Barak pursued the chariots and the army as far as Harosheth-hagoyim, and all the army of Sisera fell by the edge of the sword; not even one was left.
Also:
So God subdued Jabin the king of Canaan on that day before the sons of Israel. And the hand of the sons of Israel pressed harder and harder upon Jabin the king of Canaan, until they had eliminated Jabin the king of Canaan.
-excerpts Judges 4
In Judges 5, most of the chapter is Deborah and Barak
singing praises to God. The song lyrics are there.
Final sentence of Judges 5:
And the land was at rest for forty years.
Obviously a great outcome.
WERE THE MEN AT THAT TIME EXCEPTIONALLY COWARDLY? here:
(added Dec. 2023)
I have had comments over time that the leaders in Israel were cowardly. So
a woman was chosen to be a Judge because of that.
Now on the same night it came about that the Lord said to him, “Arise, go down against the camp, for I have handed it over to you. But if you are afraid to go down, go with Purah your servant down to the camp, so that you will hear what they say; and afterward you will have the courage to go down against the camp.” So he went down with Purah his servant to the outposts of the army that was in the camp.
-excerpt Judges 7
-God speaking to Gideon the Judge
We see Gideon afraid, because he took Purah his servant. As it says:
So he went down with Purah his servant to the outposts of the army that was in the camp.
And the Lord said to Gideon, “The people who are with you are too many for Me to hand Midian over to them, otherwise Israel would become boastful, saying, ‘My own power has saved me.’ Now therefore come, proclaim in the hearing of the people, saying, ‘Whoever is afraid and worried, is to return and leave Mount Gilead.’” So twenty-two thousand from the people returned, but ten thousand remained.
-excerpt Judges 7 (above)
Many men were fearful. But we also see that there was no way for Israel to free
themselves. No way for them to be their own savior, even if they somehow
summoned up the courage. God made the decision several times in the Book
of Judges to have others rule over them and oppress them. God's will was done.
Men couldn't overrule God, even with perfect courage.
Barak, in the end, went into battle. He did well enough to
be mentioned in the so-called Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11
in a positive way:
And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of ... Barak... who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
In Judges 5 Deborah and Barak
mention the leaders in a positive way multiple times.
Then Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam sang on that day, saying,
“For the leaders leading in Israel,
For the people volunteering,
Bless the Lord!
Also:
My heart goes out to the commanders of Israel,
The volunteers among the people;
Bless the Lord!
Also:
The people of the Lord came down to me as warriors.
From Ephraim those whose root is in Amalek came down,
Following you, Benjamin, with your peoples;
From Machir commanders came down,
And from Zebulun those who wield the staff of office.
And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah;
As was Issachar, so was Barak;...
Also:
Zebulun was a people who risked their lives,
And Naphtali too, on the high places of the field.
We see clearly that the leaders and "The people of the Lord..."
in a number of tribes stepped up when they believed God
was going to move to save them through Deborah the Judge.
EXPLANATION OF GOD USING DEBORAH here:
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth...
Prophets and prophetesses are anointed with the
Holy Spirit as we know.
The explanation of God using Deborah to judge men
and being over the army is here:
An anointing of the Holy Spirit is the anointing of a powerful masculine being. That anointing eclipses gender.
FINAL THOUGHTS here:
A woman anointed with the Holy Spirit can serve in any capacity
in our time. Whatever valid title/position there is.
To oppose this, is to oppose the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit
that was upon Deborah the prophetess and Judge. Deborah, the
woman that "saved them from the hand of their enemies" by
God's will.
[END OF PARTITION 2 OF 2]
@@user-iz8np3vv4i Thank you. I am looking forward to reading it.
So my question is , are women and men who believe that scripture teaches that women can have many positions in the church but are not to be an elder ,Shepherd or pastor of the body of Christ, are they sinning or disobeying the word of God? Does scripture say what the qualifications of a woman being called to be a pastor,Shepherd are to be . Are there also Qualifications for the Husband ,if his wife is an elder or pastor?
Good questions. What about a small congregation where there is no man who is available to pastor but a qualified (Godly, faithful to Christ, solid understanding of the Word and mature in faith, gifted in counseling) woman is asked to shepherd the flock?
@@mare_sheep9724 yes exactly, and isn’t a being a shepherd a calling? Not a matter of how qualified you are . And Where does scripture say what the qualifications of a woman should be if she is to be a pastor. And what are the qualifications of a woman elders husband to be. To me this would be addressed in scripture in biblical times especially when women were suppressed. Both Adam and Eve had equal status in the garden . They were both commanded to go multiply,rule over and subdue. But both committed high treason . God demoted both from their position of status .
I think the bigger question is are we to take Paul specific instructions for specific churches inside specific moments as all encompassing LAW for all time for the church. Where does the Bible say that that is the case?
@@ringthembells143 What other teachings of Paul should we discard? I apologize for the rhetorical nature of that question, but please re-read your post. Maybe you could ask it better?
@@checko44 Nobody is discarding anything. The Bible is not a rule book. This is a foundational point to understand. Please take the time to go through this series and understand how to get truth from God’s word on its own terms. 🔔czcams.com/play/PLnVDnbbID1uLnTajMeMCfMSeD8ZMQNYs8.html&si=xGqi0WXyavxfJLAA🔔🔔The pastoral epistles are specific letters to specific people. There is timeless truth and wisdom inspired by God conveyed through the apostle Paul as he is speaking to these churches. Reading the Bible actually takes work. It’s convenient and lazy to just treat the Bible as a rulebook. But approaching it on its own terms means you actually have to do some digging into the historical context and culture and what the specific examples of these moments in time really are trying to convey. All of it must be brought into submission to the whole narrative of scripture and teachings of Jesus. You know the king of whom we serve. None of it gets discarded. Just like Jesus said to the Pharisees. Sorry this conversation seems very similar at times.
““Do not think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets. I have not come to destroy them but to fulfill them. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one tiny letter or one stroke of a letter will pass away from the law until all takes place. Therefore whoever abolishes one of the least of these commandments and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever keeps them and teaches them, this person will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness greatly surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5:17-20 LEB
Dr Heiser has a video ( interview) where he explains the head covering issue. The Greeks of that time and culture believe that hair is considered genitalia. It is a complex explanation that is best heard from Dr Heiser. In a nutshell it is about preventing women from exposing themselves while seeking the presence of God and worship.
Thats right! From an SBL paper by Troy Martin from St. Xavier University.
Yes I watched it ,but Dr Heiser also says he can defend both positions and tear down both positions.
Maybe I missed something but what about 1 Timothy 3:1-13 about qualifications for pastor and deacon. I understand that women are referred to as deacon in the Bible elsewhere. But it seems as though men SHOULD be in charge in at least the leadership or shepherd role. I’m not trying to be adversarial I just wish someone would have expanded on that chapter a little more.
@@ringthembells143 I watched all 59 minutes of it I’m not trying to be snarky it’s a real question.
@@collinlynch4569 my bad ✔️✌️ Forgive me, I don’t think I meant to respond with that here.
@@ringthembells143 it’s all good man haha I’m just interested in this stuff my church has deaconesses so I was interested in this topic.
@@collinlynch4569 In the interview linked with Disciple Dojo, they pull up those passages on the screen and talk through them - thought you'd be interested in watching that! It's a little later in the video but you could probably find it in the topics when scrolling. Or watch the whole 2 hour discussion!
@@R.MarkReasonerJr. alright cool thanks!
Genesis 1-2:God created Adam first =Headship
God created Eve for Adam =Headship
Eve was presented to Adam=Headship.
Eve is Named by Adam
=Headshp.
1. Same false argument could be made that Eve was superior to Adam because she was made last, "the crown of creation." But we know they are made equal.
2. God created Eve to be Adams עזר, "rescuer" or "strong aid" and said it was not good for man to be alone. He didnt create Eve to be Adams slave
3. Sacrifices were presented to God. Does this mean sacrificial goats are the head over God?
4. Hagar named God.
Neither are superior of one another I don’t think anyone is arguing that , or I hope not. The debate is over role? Regardless of which interpretation someone takes , it is clear both want to Please God and believe that scripture is their authority. Adam and Eve were partners in the garden. Eden is gone and here we are.
We are all one in Christ but we have different roles
Correct we are not in Eden anymore. We have a different commission now and both have different roles .
Not in the New Covenant. Else the priesthood would
be a 2-tiered priesthood based on birthright, that is, gender.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession,...
-excerpt 1 Peter 2
1st Timothy 3 also lays out explicitly the qualifications of a bishop and deacon. The bishop must be blameless, the husband of one wife and the same for the deacons. It even goes to say that both the bishop and the deacon are too rule thier children and thier house hold well. No where in here does it give the qualifications for a women to be iether nor does it anywhere in the Bible. I can go on and on with scripture on this topic. Feminism and the curse of genesis 3:16 is what we are dealing with here. God has specific roles for men and women and iether is no more important than the other. It just how God designed it.
1. Phoebe was a deacon
2. The Bishop must be husband of one wife. Does this mean that he must be married? I guess Paul is eliminated from Church leadership.
So what are the qualifications for the title/position of 'father'?
Paul believed he was a father, and that there were others. He
regarded the title/position as valid and also special.
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers...
-excerpt 1 Corinthians 4 KJV
-words of Paul
And do not call anyone on earth your father; for only One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
-excerpt Matthew 23
-words of Jesus
Paul never states the qualifications for being a 'father'. Even though this
title/position is rare and special according to Paul. Be careful of the
teachings of Paul.
Tim Mackie has done an excellent study of Gen 3:16. The verb is tge same, toil in both cases for men and women. Error in translation to make it pain in one place and toil in the other.
The scriptures say women cannot be pastors, it’s very clear, do we believe the Bible or do we not believe it? No picking and choosing.
Doesn't work because of Deborah.
Regardless, Paul described himself as a 'father'. This
title position was forbidden by Jesus.
T
I could not disagree with you more! Especially as a woman. I am very involved in my church, in discipleship, in ministry! I probably know more than average man and woman in church! Especially since being on the mission field for 11 years with my husband. I have two Masters one in Theology and one in counseling. My husband as well, plus my husband served 20 years in the military. I think that every woman should be as active in every aspect of ministry. But I also believe in complimentarianism. My husband takes my advice and listens to me. Along with some men in the church including the Pastor. As Elders (all men) they take it to scripture and double check which they do with everyone that brings advice, information etc. They are true Bereans. Paul stated that women should not be pastors or elders not because God did not want to use woman in ministry, but because of the curse. “Our desire will be for his head” Because Adam did not protect his wife and correct the lie of satan and Eve took and ate and gave the fruit to the man……who was with her. Our day to day struggle is for the man leading and the woman submitting within Christ. Through out generations men have either struggled leading or being oppressive and the woman has struggled with taking control and yielding to the role structure that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit has modeled for us. Yes did God create Adam and Eve to work together but Satan knew who to go after first. This curse is still relevant today! Christ allowed and used woman in His ministry and in the New Testament not to undo the roles but restated it. There is so much more I could say but my point is women can be involved in every aspect of ministry except for two areas, which is really one. They are not allowed to be Elders, which is a pastor. They are not to have authority over men “within the church/ the church”. This is the role of Godly men because Adam, their forefather did not do what he was commanded to do and eve took control of the situation and did not ask for wisdom, insight or advice but took it on her own accord and Adam followed. Though we as believers have been redeemed by Christ through His death and resurrection we are not glorified nor is the world so we are still living under the curse and thus we still need to follow the hierarchy that God has instilled for us within the church and within a believers home.
you wrote:
Paul stated that women should not be pastors or elders not because God did not want to use woman in ministry, but because of the curse.
Neither the man nor the woman was cursed in Genesis.
Regardless, Deborah.
Argument from silence. The same assignment they make about homosexuality.
God is not silent in the Garden of Eden. Make and female both made priests equally to rule and reign in the image of God✔️✌️🔔
I watched the video and have watched many others and I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Essentially, you apply a very sketchy, not clear from the text, contextual lens of what "could" be the situation to try and read away Paul's argument. You then have basically nothing saying no and a handful of rare examples of women being in nonteaching or authoritative roles being used to justify women being in teaching and authoritative roles.
I think that view also misses out on authority and headship for the universe. Paul appeals to those concepts when we think of marriage or Jesus submitting everything to the Father and have no issues. Its only in the last 100 or so year people have come up with what seem like slim excuses for justifying dispensing with this particular teaching of Paul about headship and authority. Imagine if we did the same thing to the view of marriage and how destructive that would be. How about that Eve is a helper, she assists. A nurse to a Dr. A stewartist to a pilot. An assistant to a executive. Its in the name of the role that she is not in the same role as Adam.
The bible is a radical document, we don't need to push our modern views into it as well. I know you don't believe you are and I love you channel but this edit is the biggest miss so far for me. Look forward to the next upload.
I would love to make a clear statement about this. Especially to women as when their glorious plan is reinstituted they don't become enraged that they were left out and no one told them the truth. A woman's place is not to lead in the church. It is to keep her husband oriented to be fruitful for God in the garden. You can use "vineyard" if you like. Adam's role in this world is going back to Adam. If any of you here in this time and age saw Eve in her role in this world, most would be impressed to worship her as a goddess. Whatever Adam earns in the vineyard is rotated and given to Eve. They are partners. One flesh. The word for "help meet" in the Hebrew in Genesis is this word play / picture of one opposite you. Or ahead of you. Directly opposed in the sense of two parties in a circle. Only there will be a third. Eve sets em up. Adam knocks em down. Christ takes His cut, raises it before the Father to be blessed and multiplied, and cuts Adam a nice check for Himself and His wife. Assuming both man and wife are seeking first the Kingdom and His righteousness it is a very profitable arrangement. Ladies please don't be disappointed. There is nothing disappointing about the plan made for you in this world. It is beyond anything you could selfishly imagine or desire. I tell you that you can hold me to this truth. But it is difficult. You and your husband will need your teacher Yeshua. And your commitment to keep looking at Christ, and the mirror. Christ, and the mirror......And the fortitude to keep getting up and trying again. The lady in the beginning of this video was right about this thing. That women are to enter discipleship with their husbands and become perfect as their heavenly Father. The role God made for the woman is priceless. I hope you ladies will pray about what I've told you and ask God to please just give you a glimpse at its glory.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joe.
you wrote:
A woman's place is not to lead in the church.
Deborah. The Judges were pastors/shepherds.
@@user-iz8np3vv4i
He also gave Israel a king. But it was never part of His plan (other than Christ and Himself). Deborah was a faithful servant during an unfaithful time.
@@homerscornbread
There is no warning, or anything negative stated about
Deborah in Judges 4 and 5.
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge's verdict could not be altered or appealed.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
A Judge was REQUIRED in scripture to judge only the hardest of cases.
Refusal to accept a Judge's verdict on any matter,
resulted in execution, according to Deuteronomy.
If your beliefs can't explain all this, they must be false.
I wrote an informal essay on Deborah. Read time: 12 minutes , free
@@user-iz8np3vv4i
I'm not challenging the fact that Deborah was entrusted with these responsibilities or even that she was given them by God. Nor am I challenging the fact that Deborah was competent in her role as judge for Israel. I don't know where you're getting this from my responses. What I'm saying is that she judged Israel during a time on excessive corruption and unfaithfulness. As was the case with the kings. Kings were given the authority likewise to judge and take life. But it was not God's plan that Israel should be judged by kings. And He was disappointed with the situation and allowed Israel to be ruled by a king other than Himself to let his people learn a lesson. That does not mean He didn't guide Saul and David and Samuel as best He could. He also allowed Israel to be ruled by the heathen. And at one point issued a decree that they should serve the Babylonian king. None of this was his plan. In my opinion neither was it his plan that Israel should be judged by a woman. But because the hearts of their leaders were unfaithful God allowed them to be judged by a woman. In very much the same way He allowed the gentiles to take over the story after Christ. To provoke His people to jealousy. That they might get their crap together. This type of correction is how I have come to know our Father in heaven. This is how He has lovingly treated me. As I said in my earlier post Deborah was a faithful servant and this is why she was judge of Israel in the absence of faithful men which begins early in Judges chapter 1.
@@homerscornbread
you wrote:
In my opinion neither was it his plan that Israel should be judged by a woman. But because the hearts of their leaders were unfaithful God allowed them to be judged by a woman.
Nothing in scripture says that or hints at that. Actually the
opposite.
Taken from my essay on Deborah below:
WERE THE MEN AT THAT TIME EXCEPTIONALLY COWARDLY? here:
(added Dec. 2023)
I have had comments over time that the leaders in Israel were cowardly. So
a woman was chosen to be a Judge because of that.
Now on the same night it came about that the Lord said to him, “Arise, go down against the camp, for I have handed it over to you. But if you are afraid to go down, go with Purah your servant down to the camp, so that you will hear what they say; and afterward you will have the courage to go down against the camp.” So he went down with Purah his servant to the outposts of the army that was in the camp.
-excerpt Judges 7
-God speaking to Gideon the Judge
We see Gideon afraid, because he took Purah his servant. As it says:
So he went down with Purah his servant to the outposts of the army that was in the camp.
And the Lord said to Gideon, “The people who are with you are too many for Me to hand Midian over to them, otherwise Israel would become boastful, saying, ‘My own power has saved me.’ Now therefore come, proclaim in the hearing of the people, saying, ‘Whoever is afraid and worried, is to return and leave Mount Gilead.’” So twenty-two thousand from the people returned, but ten thousand remained.
-excerpt Judges 7 (above)
Many men were fearful. But we also see that there was no way for Israel to free
themselves. No way for them to be their own savior, even if they somehow
summoned up the courage. God made the decision several times in the Book
of Judges to have others rule over them and oppress them. God's will was done.
Men couldn't overrule God, even with perfect courage.
Barak, in the end, went into battle. He did well enough to
be mentioned in the so-called Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11
in a positive way:
And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of ... Barak... who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
In Judges 5 Deborah and Barak
mention the leaders in a positive way multiple times.
Then Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam sang on that day, saying,
“For the leaders leading in Israel,
For the people volunteering,
Bless the Lord!
Also:
My heart goes out to the commanders of Israel,
The volunteers among the people;
Bless the Lord!
Also:
The people of the Lord came down to me as warriors.
From Ephraim those whose root is in Amalek came down,
Following you, Benjamin, with your peoples;
From Machir commanders came down,
And from Zebulun those who wield the staff of office.
And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah;
As was Issachar, so was Barak;...
Also:
Zebulun was a people who risked their lives,
And Naphtali too, on the high places of the field.
We see clearly that the leaders and "The people of the Lord..."
in a number of tribes stepped up when they believed God
was going to move to save them through Deborah the Judge.
I’m just at the start of this vid and if ends up being full complimentarian, I’m done with y’all.
So I’m 5 minutes in and I think this might be my favorite video ever on this topic…so far anyway. I’m encouraged.
@@cecilly59
For an egalitarian view, I suggest my free postable essay on Deborah.
I am not convinced by these arguments. Despite respecting all these people in other matters this does violence to the theme of scripture from beginning to end. If Jesus had wanted to have 6 women disciples or 12 surely He would have done so.
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge's verdict could not be altered or appealed.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
A Judge was REQUIRED in scripture to judge only the hardest of cases.
Refusal to accept a Judge's verdict on any matter,
resulted in execution, according to Deuteronomy.
If your beliefs can't explain all this, they must be false.
What happens to every group that allows women pastors? There’s your answer.
Corinthians, God is the head of Christ,Christ is the head of man, man the head of women, the women is not to head the church, you people twist the scriptures ,
did you watch the video? and compare it to scripture?
Troubled about this video. The roles God gave men and women are specific. Very, very subtle apostasy. Super sad.
Wow, that sure is a Vague response to a fully engaged and informative video with tons of biblical evidence
@@ringthembells143I could so expound on this, women having children and their role at home and how time consuming that is, Martha listened to Jesus, did not teach with Jesus.
Women were made as helpmates, not the head of the home. They could not possibly fulfill the duties of being ministers if they are full time mothers. And there are a million other examples.
Not being vague at all. Chemically, physically, emotionally we are so different and have different strengths.
We are defined as God wants us and our roles in the Bible.
All said in love.
@@monicadiazrivera3907
Not all women are wives or mothers.
Not all women are the same.
The differences between the sexes are lesser than we think. Men and women are more alike than they are different.
@@monicadiazrivera3907 actually the word helpmate is a complete mistranslation is the only time that word is used in genesis to be described as a helpmate. The other times it’s defined as a strong deliver. Will have a video coming on that soon as well. Entire of the Bible is about the equality of women and men leading and ruling as priests and God’s kingdom equally
@@prodigaltrev not just a copy and pasta over here we’ve got some linguine as defense as well to show that women are equal in leadership roles within the kingdom of God
Everyone in this video is giving their opinions on what the Bible says.
Why don't you put those verses on the screen, read them word for word, and let's all see and understand? Stop giving us your angles, slants or interpretations. Show us the exact words as written in the Book.
It starts with Deborah. I suggest my free postable essay.
Read time: 12 minutes
@@user-iz8np3vv4i I don't need you essay.
Post the verses right here so everyone can read them.
@@OhCuePie
Essay on Deborah, the Judge and prophetess. (Revised Dec. 2023)
Before Paul we have her story. We don't know what Paul would have
said about her. We have to read about her first and then try to understand
Paul (if possible).
This is what the people at the beginning of Christianity had to do.
They knew the story of Deborah already.
Deborah is either a meaningless exception or an important precedent,
in the debate of whether men and women are spiritually equal.
Before beginning, it should be noted that there is no
scripture stating clearly or even hinting at,
that Deborah was God's second choice. There was no man
that rejected the call to be Judge, requiring a woman to
take that place.
*************************************************************
INTRODUCTION:
Before God was rejected by Israel for the rulership of men, that is, kings,
there were different 'seasons' so to speak. One of those seasons
was the time of the Judges.
...but they have rejected Me from being King over them.
Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; and they said to him, “Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint us a king to judge us like all the nations.” But the matter was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people regarding all that they say to you, because they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being King over them. Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day-in that they have abandoned Me and served other gods-so they are doing to you as well.
-excerpt 1 Samuel 8
A Judge at this time, was VERY different from a judge in our time.
The Judge was over the nation of Israel. But not as a man, as
King, or as a woman, as Queen, because God was not rejected as King as yet.
God ruled Israel through the Judges.
Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 KJV
(In case the reader in unaware, the word pastor and the word
shepherd are the same word. I prefer shepherd, because it has
obvious meaning to the average person.)
Major modern English translations like the NASB use
the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
Some believe that pastor (or shepherd), is a position that
was created in the New Covenant. This is not true. In the Old Testament
shepherds are mentioned multiple times. Often in a negative way.
“My people have become lost sheep;
Their shepherds have led them astray.
-excerpt Jeremiah 50
For an entire chapter on worthless shepherds, the reader may
check out Ezekiel 34.
And here we see Judges ruling over Israel. Therefore we see God ruling over
the men and women of Israel, through a woman. That is, in the case of Deborah:
Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, and since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel.
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verses 9 and 10 KJV
-God speaking to Nathan the prophet
Finally:
All the Judges were men, except one. Deborah.
She was married, but her husband was not a Judge.
HER JUDGING AUTHORITY here:
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel went up to her for judgment.
-excerpt Judges 4
Deborah judged men and had the authority to execute, as
some sins in the Old Covenant, such as murder, demanded the death penalty
as the punishment.
There was no appeal to Deborah's (a Judge's) verdict:
... you shall not turn aside from the word which they declare to you, to the right or the left.
If a man rejected Deborah's decision, the penalty was execution:
But the person who acts insolently by not listening to the priest who stands there to serve the Lord your God, nor to the judge, that person shall die;...
She used the Law, therefore scripture, when judging and instructing:
In accordance with the terms of the law about which they instruct you...
She had the same authority as a Levitical priest:
So you shall come to the Levitical priests or the judge...
The location she judged was determined by God. It was not a small
cabin or cave, but outdoors. Therefore a public setting:
...go up to the place which the Lord your God chooses.
[She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country...
-excerpt Judges 4]
Also of note, she judged the hardest cases in the nation.
“If a case is too difficult for you to decide, between one kind of homicide or another, between one kind of lawsuit or another, and between one kind of assault or another, that are cases of dispute in your courts, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord your God chooses. So you shall come to the Levitical priests or the judge who is in office in those days, and you shall inquire of them and they will declare to you the verdict. Then you shall act in accordance with the terms of the verdict which they declare to you from that place which the Lord chooses; and you shall be careful to act in accordance with everything that they instruct you to do. In accordance with the terms of the law about which they instruct you, and in accordance with the verdict which they tell you, you shall act; you shall not turn aside from the word which they declare to you, to the right or the left. But the person who acts insolently by not listening to the priest who stands there to serve the Lord your God, nor to the judge, that person shall die; so you shall eliminate the evil from Israel.
-excerpt Deuteronomy 17
[END OF PARTITION 1 OF 2]
@@OhCuePie
THE REASON GOD SENT HER here:
...the Lord was moved to pity...
And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who tormented and oppressed them.
-excerpt Judges 2
The sending of a Judge meant God was showing mercy to His people.
It wasn't a judgment against them.
Since Deborah was a woman, this scripture is sometimes used
in error to describe her, in our time:
My people! Their oppressors treat them violently,
And women rule over them.
My people! Those who guide you lead you astray
And confuse the direction of your paths.
-excerpt Isaiah 3
They are taking the prophetess Deborah and comparing her to
Jezebel who murdered prophets.
Has it not been reported to my master what I did when Jezebel killed the prophets of the Lord, that I hid a hundred prophets of the Lord...
-excerpt 1 Kings 18
When a Judge died, THEN people were led astray.
But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways.
-excerpt Judges 2
After Deborah's time in Judges 4 and 5, we see confirmation of the people
turning back and acting more corruptly than their fathers.
Then the sons of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord handed them over to Midian for seven years. The power of Midian prevailed against Israel.
-excerpt Judges 6 first two sentences (above)
When the shepherd over Israel died, the people went back into sin.
That is because the Judge was the most important spiritual leader of this time period.
THE AUTHORITY SHE HAD OVER THE COMMANDER OF THE ARMY here:
Now she sent word and summoned Barak...
She gave the order for the battle to begin that Israel won.
Then Deborah said to Barak, “Arise! For this is the day on which the Lord has handed Sisera over to you...
Before the battle began she prophesied that a woman
would kill Sisera (the enemy commander). This happened,
as Jael, a woman not part of the battle, killed Sisera.
She said, “I will certainly go with you; however, the fame shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.”
And:
But Jael, Heber’s wife, took a tent peg and a hammer in her hand, and went secretly to him and drove the peg into his temple, and it went through into the ground; for he was sound asleep and exhausted. So he died. And behold, while Barak was pursuing Sisera, Jael came out to meet him and said to him, “Come, and I will show you the man whom you are seeking.” So he entered with her, and behold, Sisera was lying dead with the tent peg in his temple.
So what were the results of this battle?
And the Lord routed Sisera and all his chariots and all his army with the edge of the sword before Barak; and Sisera got down from his chariot and fled on foot. But Barak pursued the chariots and the army as far as Harosheth-hagoyim, and all the army of Sisera fell by the edge of the sword; not even one was left.
Also:
So God subdued Jabin the king of Canaan on that day before the sons of Israel. And the hand of the sons of Israel pressed harder and harder upon Jabin the king of Canaan, until they had eliminated Jabin the king of Canaan.
-excerpts Judges 4
In Judges 5, most of the chapter is Deborah and Barak
singing praises to God. The song lyrics are there.
Final sentence of Judges 5:
And the land was at rest for forty years.
Obviously a great outcome.
WERE THE MEN AT THAT TIME EXCEPTIONALLY COWARDLY? here:
(added Dec. 2023)
I have had comments over time that the leaders in Israel were cowardly. So
a woman was chosen to be a Judge because of that.
Now on the same night it came about that the Lord said to him, “Arise, go down against the camp, for I have handed it over to you. But if you are afraid to go down, go with Purah your servant down to the camp, so that you will hear what they say; and afterward you will have the courage to go down against the camp.” So he went down with Purah his servant to the outposts of the army that was in the camp.
-excerpt Judges 7
-God speaking to Gideon the Judge
We see Gideon afraid, because he took Purah his servant. As it says:
So he went down with Purah his servant to the outposts of the army that was in the camp.
And the Lord said to Gideon, “The people who are with you are too many for Me to hand Midian over to them, otherwise Israel would become boastful, saying, ‘My own power has saved me.’ Now therefore come, proclaim in the hearing of the people, saying, ‘Whoever is afraid and worried, is to return and leave Mount Gilead.’” So twenty-two thousand from the people returned, but ten thousand remained.
-excerpt Judges 7 (above)
Many men were fearful. But we also see that there was no way for Israel to free
themselves. No way for them to be their own savior, even if they somehow
summoned up the courage. God made the decision several times in the Book
of Judges to have others rule over them and oppress them. God's will was done.
Men couldn't overrule God, even with perfect courage.
Barak, in the end, went into battle. He did well enough to
be mentioned in the so-called Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11
in a positive way:
And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of ... Barak... who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
In Judges 5 Deborah and Barak
mention the leaders in a positive way multiple times.
Then Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam sang on that day, saying,
“For the leaders leading in Israel,
For the people volunteering,
Bless the Lord!
Also:
My heart goes out to the commanders of Israel,
The volunteers among the people;
Bless the Lord!
Also:
The people of the Lord came down to me as warriors.
From Ephraim those whose root is in Amalek came down,
Following you, Benjamin, with your peoples;
From Machir commanders came down,
And from Zebulun those who wield the staff of office.
And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah;
As was Issachar, so was Barak;...
Also:
Zebulun was a people who risked their lives,
And Naphtali too, on the high places of the field.
We see clearly that the leaders and "The people of the Lord..."
in a number of tribes stepped up when they believed God
was going to move to save them through Deborah the Judge.
EXPLANATION OF GOD USING DEBORAH here:
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth...
Prophets and prophetesses are anointed with the
Holy Spirit as we know.
The explanation of God using Deborah to judge men
and being over the army is here:
An anointing of the Holy Spirit is the anointing of a powerful masculine being. That anointing eclipses gender.
FINAL THOUGHTS here:
A woman anointed with the Holy Spirit can serve in any capacity
in our time. Whatever valid title/position there is.
To oppose this, is to oppose the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit
that was upon Deborah the prophetess and Judge. Deborah, the
woman that "saved them from the hand of their enemies" by
God's will.
[END OF PARTITION 2 OF 2]
Also, Exodus 19 says that God wanted to make the entire nation a nation of priests. Deut 5 expands that they were ALL supposed to go up the mountain but bc they were too afraid God set them at the base
You’re all playing with fire, fires of hell. Compromising the Word of Yah. Eve was a help mate. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church.
Where does the husband sit and where does the wife sit? That without stating all the clearly written Word of God on the subject. Repent!
We will see who is hot under the collar on the day of the Lord when He lifts up women out of the oppression that men like you have held them under and put them as an authority over you✔️✌️🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Do you people now English? Act like it! Be precise not so sloppy!
Whatever hurt inside that causes you to be so strict with grammer that you post comments like this is something I’ll pray for. Moses stuttered, Paul was not a good speaker, and Peter was an uneducated man, I think your parameters of successful transmission of truth may be a little bit more strict than God himself… just some food for thought. Show some grace✌️❤️
Maria learn from Jesus to be a rabbi? Seriously?
Yes that is what the text says ✔️🔔
@@ringthembells143No, it does not. Mary never travelled with Jesus. She stayed home. Sitting at the feet of Jesus doesn’t make her a rabbi in training. The man possessed by legion sat at Jesus feet also. Common saying that simply means to give respect.
@@toolpost7264 you can derive whatever meaning you would like I will use culture and context of the actual authors and audience. However even removing that from this verse we still have consistent examples of female disciples underneath Jesus and no designation in the great commission just like from the very beginning in the garden of Eden when both male and female were made equally in the image of God to rule and reign on his behalf here on earth. whatever leg you try to kick out there 12 more waiting right behind it. Equality amongst men and women in the kingdom of God is not a request but a command. You do you✌️🔔✔️❤️
@@ringthembells143 you’re not using culture or context. You are fooling yourself if you think so. You’re using eisegesis and flawed thinking. The context and culture to this very day in Orthodox Judaism is that women aren’t rabbis. They are given a different title and a different role. In the oldest Christian church… women aren’t priests. Genesis 3 has Eve as a helper whose desire is contrary to her husbands but he would rule over her. Just like sin desire is for you but you should rule over it. A disciple is just a student why are you equating it with a rabbi? What does roles have to do with equality? What is the context of the great commission? Context matters to you right, It I was given to 11 male apostles. Context,
Culture, nor history is in agreement with you. But keep pointing to the outliers! Do what’s right in your own eyes.
Answer this for yourself…
In Acts 21 Paul is traveling to Jerusalem against the advice of spirit-filled men. He arrives at Philip’s home. The text tells us that Philip had four daughter’s that prophesied. First ask, why the text gives this information? Does it seem out of place?
Paul tarried there many days waiting on Agabus to arrive. Who is Agabus? Oh yeah, he’s that well known prophet from Acts 11. Why did Paul wait for Agabus? Surely the four daughters, who were prophets, could speak from the Spirit, right? Why wait on a man?
Was Philip’s home a house church were the women had to remain silent? Philip didn’t live in Corinth or Ephesus. What is going on here? Hmmm, perhaps it is because the letters were distributed to other churches. Yeah, but,
It was just meant for Corinth, or was it?
You’re a fan of Heiser… if it’s weird it’s important, right? Why does the text tell us about his four daughters, seems weird!
When Paul got the news from Agabus, he went anyway! Seems like the four daughters could have said anything and it would not have deterred Paul. Why did he tarry there many days?
As per usual, many mischaracterizations and straw men.
One of the things I find sincerely saddening is these scholars pitting Paul versus Jesus. This completely ignores the doctrine of inspiration. Jesus is God. Therefore Paul’s writings are from Jesus.
Not a single scholar puts Paul against Jesus inside this video. Please watch again
@@ringthembells143 I just watched again and at the 8:57 mark Dr. Carmen Imes pits Paul against Jesus.
@@brandigoodson4656
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers...
-excerpt 1 Corinthians 4 KJV
-words of Paul
And do not call anyone on earth your father; for only One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
-excerpt Matthew 23
-words of Jesus
@@user-iz8np3vv4i I love those scriptures. Can you clarify what they are meant to teach in this context?
@@brandigoodson4656
The original poster wrote:
Jesus is God. Therefore Paul’s writings are from Jesus.
What I mean is that Paul wasn't a perfect teacher. The post
above is from Part 10 of an informal essay on some of Paul's
teachings. Paul didn't come out well.
I've been a Christian a long time. I used to just accept everything
by Paul, but those days are long gone.
The Table of Contents of the essay can be posted. You
can pick Part 10, or whatever. I will paste up what you want.
Someone should ring your bell, it's plain to see, don't try to change meanings,context, you probably can't tell the difference between the two, go home & bake some cookies
Highly convinced you are a Russian bot sending out hateful messages. If you’re not, that is pretty sad✔️
DR BEN WITHERINGTON: Issue boils down to rich women being eager beavers. 🦫 55:18
I don’t agree with your line of thinking, but boy did I chuckle when he said that✔️😂